My next game: Epeiros as Pergamon

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm thinking ahead to my next game, once my massive Roman campaign is done, and for once it's not of "another Roman game". In my present game I've been having a lot of fun roleplaying out Pergamon as a Roman ally, rather than just another Roman province with Roman troops. So there's been a client ruler in the city for over 70 years, and it has two armies of regional troops and mercenaries, which I've used to great effect.

So for my next game, I want to play a migrated Epeiros campaign as the kingdom. I'll probably still do the whole business of trying to keep most factions relatively historical, though I might struggle a bit with Roman expansion.

Plan is thus; use Force Diplomacy to stay at peace with Koinon Hellenon and Makedonia, so that I can ignore my starting location for the most part. Or perhaps take the Illyrian coast initially for the money, and to give them to Rome later.

Otherwise it's focused on Asia Minor. Take Pergamon with a transported army as soon as possible, and start building it up. Then my targets are Halikarnassos, Ipsos, Sardis and Side to begin with. Take Galatia and give it to a Gallic faction. Byzantion might be a good early choice since it then stops anyone from Europe crossing into Asia Minor and vice-versa.

I'll probably be at war with the Seleukids (especially since they have Ipsos, Sarsis and Side) and Pontos for a goodly long while, any tips for facing them?

For armies, I've had good results with Classical hoplites as the rock in the centre of my line, possibly with some pike phalanxes in the very middle and them either side. Then Celto-Hellenic spearmen on the flanks, with peltasts on the wings. Kretan archers and Celtic slingers for long-ranged harrassment and enemy skirmisher-killing, and whatever mercenary cavalry I can get my hands on (preferably Thracian and Illyrian). Along with those brilliant Asian skirmishing horse.

I might take Byzantion as well, possibly try to recreate the Thracian Kingdom (expanding out from Byzantion).

Does this sound viable?

[overweightninja]

Does this sound viable?

I certainly hope so, sounds very simmilar to what I started doing with the Maks yesterday.
Anyway my "Argeade Kingdom of Pergamon" has had a nice little start, abandoned all of mainland Hellas and most of my FMs, shipped them to Mytilene then stormed Pergamon itself. Then attacked Bithynia and following that Ankyra.
Seleucids weren't too pleased with that and tried to break the siege at Ankyra kicking off our war.
Current situation is those four settlements. Only had a half stack army comprised of Deutoroi phalanx, Lonchophoroi, Theuros and skirmishers, but I've still got a few thousand mnai going spare each turn (Anatolian economy is looking very good so far) which I'm currently investing in some more supporting inf (ie peltasti and more theuros).
Seleucids have sent very "fair" stacks at me so far with nice balances of troops roughly equivalent to my own stack. They've been shipping in a lot of troops recently though so trying to build my strength up before I go for Ipsos and Sardis (and keep them off Nikaia at the same time, although these are very small stacks).
Fortunately the Ptolies and Pontos have both taken pity on me for the time being so as long as my Alliances with them hold out, my plan is to kick the Seleucids out of western anatolia, and close off the land to them by taking Mazaka and giving it to Pontos. Then it will be a case of either returning to Makedonia proper to retake the homelands, or kicking whoever backstabs me out of Anatolia as well.
Anyways I'll keep you updated if anything interesting happens, looks like things are just warming up
Cheers

[delra]

You won't be able to get any decent phalanxes as Epeiros in Pergamon (AOR)...

The sanest army I can think of is a solid line of classical hoplites along with thracian units as flankers (they are recruitable in Asia Minor as Epeiros). You have thracian pelstats there with their insane swords, also good medium cavalry. Should be enough for flanking power. Especially after you get some chevrons. Some galatians might be priceless too.

Add to that some heavy mercenary cavalry (Thessalians?) and you're fine for most of the game. Classical hoplites + thracian peltasts can take any heavy phalanx out there without even getting tired. And phalanxes is what you will be fighting against most of the time.

Resign from archers, they are hardly ever useful against all the heavy stuff you're going to fight against and you can't really retrain them. I'd stay with thracian pelstats for most of the game as missile support for they are deadly.

On second thought, you could make a trip and create a colony in Crimea where you can train those awesome armoured archers. It's short way shipping them from there...

On strategic level, I advise using units you can retrain, you will be tight with cash for most of the game so housing depleted units might help a lot. Also, you could consider leaving your historic house rules for a while and really consider taking some places that might be very useful for you but weren't actually Pergamon's subjects back then. Like Rhodos (for slingers), Crete (for archers), Lesbos (to get rid of Makedonia), Crimea (for archers), Nikaia and Byzantion (to seal your lands from Greek incursions)...

[Swordmaster]

Quintus won't be leaving his house rules.

I think it's gonna be hard, especially if the Seleukids are faring well. I'd advise on making peace with them before you take Pergamon, so that you may have some time building it up. You can take Pergamon with your starting army, though. But... are you gonna let yourself being conquered by Rome in the end?

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't use Kretans to attack the enemy line, they're brilliant for wiping out their skirmishers and anyone unarmoured (like annoying skirmisher cavalry). Especially for getting rid of their skirmishers before the lines close. Same goes the slingers.

Not fussed about lacking native phalanxes, I don't like them anyway. I've found a centre of one or two merc phalangites with lots of classical hoplites more than does the job. I'll be modelling those armies on the ones I've been using while roleplaying as Pergamon in my Roman game. Which usually means a phalanx in the centre, two classical hoplites either side, one Celto-hellenic Hoplites either side of them and Peltasts on the outside. Then archers behind the line, akontistai and slingers out front and whatever cavalry and other troops I can manage to fill it out.

Quintus won't be leaving his house rules.

I think it's gonna be hard, especially if the Seleukids are faring well. I'd advise on making peace with them before you take Pergamon, so that you may have some time building it up. You can take Pergamon with your starting army, though. But... are you gonna let yourself being conquered by Rome in the end?

I'll be using FD as usual, and possibly a lot of moving armies around at the start. I'll give Epirus away in the 160s, and I do plan to end the scenario in 133BC. That's more than long enough to play anyway.

[Irishmafia2020]

Hhmmmm.... I didn't think you had it in you to play a non-Roman faction. I hope that you will enjoy the scenario that yo have planned!

[QuintusSertorius]

Hhmmmm.... I didn't think you had it in you to play a non-Roman faction. I hope that you will enjoy the scenario that yo have planned!

It's because I've had a lot of fun using Greek armies while roleplaying as Pergamon in my Roman game. Classical hoplites are brilliant at the centre of a line, and will fight forever, it seems. And I like a lot of the regional Greek lineup, lots of useful units there. I chose Epeiros as the most disposable Hellenic faction, them not being in Greece doesn't matter historically.

Course this scenario could come about much sooner than planned if I can't find a way around the CTD in my Roman game.

[QuintusSertorius]

Looks a lot like I'll be starting this game after a clean uninstall-reinstall tomorrow, since my Roman game is bugged.

I'm tempted to alter the descr_strat in the new game to give myself Pergamon to start with, but then it won't be all that hard to grab by moving a stack there. I think I'll abandon Italy as soon as I've got Pergamon, maybe hiring out all the Samnites I can get, then using Cape Tainon to get more later. Samnite heavies make great flankers to come in once the lines are engaged. Better than peltasti by a long way.

My planned army will be thus (and it's the pattern for all of them):

1 General
1 Phalanx unit to hold the very centre
4 Classical Hoplites, to cover them in the centre
2 Celto-Hellenic Hoplites on the flanks (much better than theurophoroi)
2 Peltasti on the wings
2 Kretan archers
1 Akontistai
1 Toxotai
1 Celtic slingers
1 Thracian peltasts
1 Asian Light cavalry
1 Curepos or Illyrian Light
1 Thracian Podromoi or Thessalian heavies

Then one more unit to play with, usually some heavy infantry for flanking or some more cavalry.

I also need to start thinking about my house rules. I'm going to still try to keep the AI factions to roughly historical expansion through the console and many other devices. As always I'll avoid using cheats simply to benefit me, but that's fine when it helps the smaller factions.

For a territorial guide, I'm thinking my limit should be no more than that of Lysimachus' Kingdom of Thrace (the orange):



However, since I don't plan to wipe out Pontos, I might rein my borders in a bit. I'd like Byzantion, though to stop people trying it on from Greece.

[Swordmaster]

Looks a lot like I'll be starting this game after a clean uninstall-reinstall tomorrow, since my Roman game is bugged.

I'm tempted to alter the descr_strat in the new game to give myself Pergamon to start with, but then it won't be all that hard to grab by moving a stack there. I think I'll abandon Italy as soon as I've got Pergamon, maybe hiring out all the Samnites I can get, then using Cape Tainon to get more later. Samnite heavies make great flankers to come in once the lines are engaged. Better than peltasti by a long way.

My planned army will be thus (and it's the pattern for all of them):

1 General
1 Phalanx unit to hold the very centre
4 Classical Hoplites, to cover them in the centre
2 Celto-Hellenic Hoplites on the flanks (much better than theurophoroi)
2 Peltasti on the wings
2 Kretan archers
1 Akontistai
1 Toxotai
1 Celtic slingers
1 Thracian peltasts
1 Asian Light cavalry
1 Curepos or Illyrian Light
1 Thracian Podromoi or Thessalian heavies

Then one more unit to play with, usually some heavy infantry for flanking or some more cavalry.

I also need to start thinking about my house rules. I'm going to still try to keep the AI factions to roughly historical expansion through the console and many other devices. As always I'll avoid using cheats simply to benefit me, but that's fine when it helps the smaller factions.

For a territorial guide, I'm thinking my limit should be no more than that of Lysimachus' Kingdom of Thrace (the orange):

However, since I don't plan to wipe out Pontos, I might rein my borders in a bit. I'd like Byzantion, though to stop people trying it on from Greece.

I'd say use two FMs. You'll have the great Hetairoi, so I'd do that.

[QuintusSertorius]

I guess no more generals-as-observers, since that wasn't the Hellenic style. I guess one leading each wing of cavalry.

Looking at units on the RV, basically the cavalry with the best stamina available to me are Asian Light Cavalry and Prodromoi as far as easily-recruited ones, and Curepos and Thracian Prodromoi for mercs. I've found that's the most important attribute for how I like my cavalry, fast and tireless. Another reason to grab Byzantion is the Thracian cavalry.

I might have to take Galatia since it's got both Leuce Epos and Celto-Hellenic Infantry as regionals. I've found Celto-Hellenics much better than Theurophoroi, who are just weak. Which makes no sense given the latter have two points better of armour, but for some reason they always perform badly.

[Aaldaemon]

I guess no more generals-as-observers, since that wasn't the Hellenic style. I guess one leading each wing of cavalry.

Looking at units on the RV, basically the cavalry with the best stamina available to me are Asian Light Cavalry and Prodromoi as far as easily-recruited ones, and Curepos and Thracian Prodromoi for mercs. I've found that's the most important attribute for how I like my cavalry, fast and tireless. Another reason to grab Byzantion is the Thracian cavalry.

I might have to take Galatia since it's got both Leuce Epos and Celto-Hellenic Infantry as regionals. I've found Celto-Hellenics much better than Theurophoroi, who are just weak. Which makes no sense given the latter have two points better of armour, but for some reason they always perform badly.

Celto-Hellenic infantry is one of my favorite regional units to be sure. I will look forward to seeing you putting them to good use. It's a pity Epeiros can not recruit the Galatian heavy spearmen in Ankyra (I think so at least), those would have been awesome as well.

[QuintusSertorius]

Celto-Hellenic infantry is one of my favorite regional units to be sure. I will look forward to seeing you putting them to good use. It's a pity Epeiros can not recruit the Galatian heavy spearmen in Ankyra (I think so at least), those would have been awesome as well.

They're one of my "must hires" whenever they appear as mercenaries. Can't see the Galatian heavies on the 1.0 RV, don't have the latest for 1.1 on this machine.

Thinking about it, grabbing Galatia would give me access to three units I'd make good use of; Celto-Hellenics, Gallic slingers and Leuce Epos.

I suppose I should be thinking about renaming my faction, too.

[QuintusSertorius]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting the Seleukids and Pontos, since they'll probably be my main enemies in Anatolia?

In my other game I fought Koinon Hellenon and Makedonia, but I suspect they're both much easier. At least the latter were until they got reformed phalanxes...

[MerlinusCDXX]

I like your proposed army composition, looks to be pretty varied but effective. If you end up having your "discretionary unit" in any of your armies be infantry, may I suggest using Thraikioi Romphaiaroi (sp?), you will be able to recruit them in Tylis and Naissos from the level 4 regional complex. They make good flankers that can also act on their own if necessary, and they just shred through armored infantry. From your last post it looks like you know how to deal with Seleukid phalangitai (about the same as you would Makedonike phalangitai), but you are going to need someone to deal with the Agema Thorakitai that the AS will be bringing from Antiocheia, Romphaiaroi will shred through those armored foot tanks (they are spear armed so Prodromoi aren't gonna cut it for that one). It's also likely that you'll have to face off against the Ptolemaioi once or twice, and the Romphaiaroi will deal with those Galatian armored swordsmen the Ptollies get pretty nicely.

Good Luck on your new campaign.

[QuintusSertorius]

Indeed, I think armour might be my main problem, insofar as I won't have many well-armoured units. Not many swordsmen either.

[overweightninja]

They're one of my "must hires" whenever they appear as mercenaries. Can't see the Galatian heavies on the 1.0 RV, don't have the latest for 1.1 on this machine.

Thinking about it, grabbing Galatia would give me access to three units I'd make good use of; Celto-Hellenics, Gallic slingers and Leuce Epos.

I suppose I should be thinking about renaming my faction, too.

I was able to get the Galation heavy spearmen in the Mak campaign I mentioned I'm running atm, had Ankyra running with local autonomy as its Type 4 gov, so wasn't sure which exact MIC level is required but its either four or five.
Either way they're regionals so should be available to the Eps too.
Cheers

[Lysimachos]

I was able to get the Galation heavy spearmen in the Mak campaign I mentioned I'm running atm, had Ankyra running with local autonomy as its Type 4 gov, so wasn't sure which exact MIC level is required but its either four or five.
Either way they're regionals so should be available to the Eps too.
Cheers

They are level four, but i made the experience that the type of MIC can be different: I had to realize that the Seleucids build them only with factional MIC... At least that is what the RV says, have not been so far to make sure.

[overweightninja]

They are level four, but i made the experience that the type of MIC can be different: I had to realize that the Seleucids build them only with factional MIC... At least that is what the RV says, have not been so far to make sure.

Just checked the RV, you are indeed correct.
Level four regional MIC for some factions, native MIC for some other factions, and unfortunately some factions can't recruit them at all (including Epirus ).
Looks like the only Galatians you'll have access to are the "Kluddolon" swordsmen Quintus mate :(
Cheers

[QuintusSertorius]

Just checked the RV, you are indeed correct.
Level four regional MIC for some factions, native MIC for some other factions, and unfortunately some factions can't recruit them at all (including Epirus ).
Looks like the only Galatians you'll have access to are the "Kluddolon" swordsmen Quintus mate :(
Cheers

That's alright, I'm more interested in the Celto-Hellenics, Iaosatae and Leuce Epos anyway.

[Kromulan]

I wouldn't be surprised if you found yourself facing a united (allied) front consisting of AS, Ptol, and Pontos at some point. Plus, you'll most likely be at war with KH, Maks and Getai if you're planning on expanding into Thrace.
Some of those Thracian elites will certainly come in handy dealing with all the Galatian heavies Ptolemy will throw at you. Sounds like fun. Good luck.

[QuintusSertorius]

Not if Force Diplomacy has anything to do with it, I won't. :D

[QuintusSertorius]

The game hath begun! I know some people aren't going to like the fact that I cheated at the start, but let's have the debate shall we?

[jhhowell]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting the Seleukids and Pontos, since they'll probably be my main enemies in Anatolia?

In my other game I fought Koinon Hellenon and Makedonia, but I suspect they're both much easier. At least the latter were until they got reformed phalanxes...

From AS, expect pretty weak armies locally - IIRC they can't recruit many (any?) phalanxes in Asia Minor. When they decide to make you target #1, expect 8-10 unit stacks of medium phalanxes, maybe with a thorakitai/thureophoroi or two mixed in. Full stacks like that plus a few elites, if you let them merge before fighting them. Should be no trouble at all for a balanced army to destroy. The AI rarely builds cavalry, and I've seen only 2-3 Hetairoi builds, ever. Ptolemies - same, but with the Galatian Kleruchoi swordsmen. I guess you probably won't see much of the yellow guys unless you let them beat AS in Syria.

Pontos - I clobbered them hard in the 250s in my Hayasdan game, and they've been happy to sit in Thrace, Bithynia, and Galatia for the next ~60 years. I found them most unimpressive, so I'm sure you'll handily crush everything they send against you. As I recall, their good units are Hellenic, but slightly weaker (Chalkaspides, Pontic Thorakitai). For a challenge, you could arrange for them to get Kotais and/or Chersonesus so they can get Scythian units to fight you with.

Regarding your planned army mix, I'd suggest a bit more cavalry. I know you're an infantry guy, but still... From what I remember of Pergamon's history, they had decent heavy cav just like the other Diadochoi. Even Hetairoi at Magnesia, so you could mod those to be recruitable. Or will you have the generals represent Hetairoi? Epeiros should be able to recruit Lonchophoroi Hippeis in Asia Minor, and those are fairly decent mediums, about the same as Prodromoi.

Also, keep in mind those Karian Warbands, they seem like an interesting alternative to Peltasts as heavy skirmishers/medium infantry. I haven't used them very much, but they've done reasonably well in the few battles I've seen.

It would be interesting if the EB2 guys had some new units specific to Pergamon for you to playtest...

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks for that, I'll keep in mind your point about cavalry. I've discovered in the other game that while I'm an infantry guy, I love medium cavalry. Gallic Curepos/Leuce Epos, Asian Light cavalry, Thracian Prodromoi, Illyrian Hippeis, I've found them all to be really effective at killing enemy lights, harrassing the line, routing engaged and tired units, and chasing down the routers. Not been overly impressed with heavy cavalry though, the way I use my horse they tire out too fast. Two or three charges and they're spent. As you suggest, I'll use FMs for my heavies mostly, and unlike in my Roman game, I'll actually use all them as cavalry (not just the youngsters).

I used the Karians briefly as mercs a while ago, I'll give them another go. Especially since they're regionals once I take Halikarnassos.

On a different topic, what's the correct form of address for something belonging to the Kingdom of Pergamon? Is it Pergamene? That's what I was using conversationally in my other game, but if I'm going to change the name of my faction it should be right, really.

[Swordmaster]

Thanks for that, I'll keep in mind your point about cavalry. I've discovered in the other game that while I'm an infantry guy, I love medium cavalry. Gallic Curepos/Leuce Epos, Asian Light cavalry, Thracian Prodromoi, Illyrian Hippeis, I've found them all to be really effective at killing enemy lights, harrassing the line, routing engaged and tired units, and chasing down the routers. Not been overly impressed with heavy cavalry though, the way I use my horse they tire out too fast. Two or three charges and they're spent. As you suggest, I'll use FMs for my heavies mostly, and unlike in my Roman game, I'll actually use all them as cavalry (not just the youngsters).

I used the Karians briefly as mercs a while ago, I'll give them another go. Especially since they're regionals once I take Halikarnassos.

On a different topic, what's the correct form of address for something belonging to the Kingdom of Pergamon? Is it Pergamene? That's what I was using conversationally in my other game, but if I'm going to change the name of my faction it should be right, really.

Yes, Pergamene is correct English. But I guess you should use a Greek name, no?

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes, Pergamene is correct English. But I guess you should use a Greek name, no?

That might conflict with my reputation as an upstanding exemplar of good old-fashioned Roman virtue!

What would the Greek be?

[QuintusSertorius]

I've been looking at the recruitment viewer for Tylis, and there's a lot of high-quality units available to Epeiros there. Agrianian assault infantry, Thracian assault infantry, Thracian medium cavalry, and many others. Glad I grabbed it when I did.

[Timoleon]

Yes, Pergamene is correct English. But I guess you should use a Greek name, no?

The resident of the city of Pergamos is Περγαμηνός (Pergamenos), plural Περγαμηνοί (Pergamenoi). If you want to refer to the army of Pergamos you should use the term περγαμηνός στρατός (pergamenos stratos).

[QuintusSertorius]

Got a strategy question to mull over, appreciate inputs.



In essense I've taken all the easy steals. For the moment I'm trying to avoid war with any other faction, at least til my economy is strong enough to support some armies. I need the trade for now.

If I go for Naissos, which was part of the historical Kingdom of Thrace, I put myself in the path of both the Getai and Makedonia. Neither have taken it, but they're both angling in that direction.

If I go for Mytilene, that throws the Makedonians at me. I could do it the subtle way - send spies to get it to revolt, then snap it up when it's rebel. I'm doing that already with Ipsos, which is flicking between revolt and some semblance of stability as a result of my spy.

Talking of which, Ipsos and Sardis are possibles, but I'd then be at war with the Seleukids. Until I've got a proper army in the region, I don't really want to risk that.

Ankyra is a possible, although I might then be over-extended and exposed to both Pontos and the Seleukids. I think for now it suits me that it's rebel, and has a massive stack there (courtesy of create_unit...).

And then there's Rhodos. In a way I think that might be a good steal, KH aren't brilliant at defending it, and it might weaken them enough to slow down their war against the Makedonians (which they're winning, again). Completes the island chain to Krete, and has that wonder that boosts sea trade.

So where do I go next?

[Swordmaster]

-If you take Rhodos, it might help the KH since they won't have useless stacks idling around there anymore, draining their treasury.
-Macedon might become a powerhouse if they manage to win from the KH, especially since they only have the Getai as opponents in the Balkan, so try to check their power.
-Pontos and the Seleucids may ally against you, so try stirring a war between them.
-Unless the Ptolemaioi are winning against the Seleucids, you could risk taking Cyprus from them, or even parts of southern Anatolia.