Space strategy roll-call!

[Martok]

Much of this has been done already, but I'd like to see even more:

- variety in races with differing but balanced strengthes and weaknesses.

- differences in racial GUI interfaces, music, ship designs, objectives, and tactics

- a highly dynamic universe with numerous setup parameters that allow me to design and play a wider variety of scenarios

- a dynamic tech three that was a bit different each game, one where certain innovations were available through research only by certain races, or even one race. Other races would have to acquire these special technologies through espionage, trade, or capture and reverse engineering.

- intricate espionage and diplomacy models/engines. Much more involved that in the games I've played in the past. I want to be able to play scenarios with heavy-duty politics (or not, if I choose in my initial game set up).

For what it's worth, GalCiv 2 actually has a lot of these features you've mentioned, especially if you have both expansion packs (Dark Avatar and Twilight of the Arnor). To highlight a few aspects:

The game's diplomacy system maybe doesn't appear very intricate per se, but it's surprisingly robust underneath. Alliances are actually meaningful, and it's perfectly possible to manipulate two or more races into going to war with each other (often useful when race A is threatening you and/or in your way, so you pay off race B to attack them). Also, races generally don't declare war at the drop of a hat or for no good reason; i.e., if you're race C's biggest trading partner, they'll be much less likely to attack you (since who wants to destroy one of their major sources of income?). If someone declares war on you, you'll usually see it coming.

If you have the TotA expansion, every race has their own tech tree, including technologies specific to that particular race. Also, the various races are pretty well balanced (you have the option of disabling their "Super Abilities" if you think they throw things too far out of whack), and you can always further tweak them to your satisfaction. You can also create your own races and save them for use in later campaigns if you wish.

In fact, the game's degree of customization in general is just absurd -- you can set the map size, density of stars, planets, habitable planets, anomalies, etc. You also determine the number of races, individual intelligence/difficulty level of said races, even their ethical alignment (good, neutral, evil). One of the big reasons this game has such a high replayability factor is the degree to which you can customize everything. There's very little you *can't* change.

GalCivs lack the crucial space combat aspect, and SE IV / V races are just bland and boring. Sins is a rather shallow game.

I concur with all three statements. I love GalCiv 2, but the lack of tactical space battles is a major sore spot for me. Also, I would argue that the Space Empire games have too much stuff -- I always feel overwhelmed by the enormous number of ships, buildings, and technologies at my disposal. Sins is fun for the fleet battles, but I agree it's pretty shallow otherwise.

Also, I don't like that in Sins, the only way to take over planets militarily is to wipe out the current population and recolonize. As it happens, I have the same problem with Sword of the Stars. I mean seriously, why couldn't they include good old-fashioned invasion and conquest? I strongly dislike it when my options are limited to genocide.

So, are you actually playing the current version and is that any good?

One of my buddies picked up the game several months back, and I've played it on his PC a few times. Compared to the demo, it's....better. I'd still hesitate to recommend it, however, as the game's sheer size still makes it difficult to properly run an interstellar empire. Also, I have to admit the inability to control tactical combat still really bothers me.

I started out with VGA Planets and along with Stars! are the games I played the most back in the day. Played some MOO2 too of course and have tried out a few of the games on that list of yours Martok. Just never really found the magic.

Well for what it's worth, there's only a small handful of those games I still play. In addition to BOTF and GalCiv 2, I only have Spaceward Ho! IV and Star Wars: Empire at War currently installed on my PC. I wish I still had Imperium Galactica 2 and Homeworld, but I somehow managed to lose my copies.

Sword of the Stars has some of the right focus that I want in a game along with real time tactical combat. Still its VGA Planets I always look back at as it had logistics that no other game wants to deal with properly. Plus I liked the idea of not having any techs to research.


CBR

Yeah, Sword of the Stars actually looks pretty good. Unfortunately, I can't get past my previously-mentioned hangup with being forced to blow up the existing population instead of just conquering them. Also, it feels distinctly more military-oriented to me; I'd really like to have another option than just "take over the whole map by force".

Never played VGA Planets, although I certainly know of it. How did the gameplay work exactly, especially if there wasn't any tech to research?

Played a lot of BotF, it's fun but there are problems (I really need to try the mods).

I can recommend both the Balance of Power Mod (BOP) and/or the Ultimate Dominion Mod 3 (UDM3).

The former is often described as BOTF as it *should've* been, and I agree with that assessment -- it just feels much better balanced overall (hence the mod's name), and the major races now tend to play a bit more like they should. Of course, UDM3 alters the game even more dramatically since it replaces the Ferengi with the Dominion (although the Ferengi are still in the game as a minor race), and it radically redoes the shiplists for all 5 powers (including new ship graphics, which look incredible).

Either way, you can't really go wrong with either one.

[drone]

I can recommend both the Balance of Power Mod (BOP) and/or the Ultimate Dominion Mod 3 (UDM3).

The former is often described as BOTF as it *should've* been, and I agree with that assessment -- it just feels much better balanced overall (hence the mod's name), and the major races now tend to play a bit more like they should. Of course, UDM3 alters the game even more dramatically since it replaces the Ferengi with the Dominion (although the Ferengi are still in the game as a minor race), and it radically redoes the shiplists for all 5 powers (including new ship graphics, which look incredible).

Either way, you can't really go wrong with either one.

Did the mods sort out the problem with upgrading factories? That takes forever due to how they compute production. And will the Borg show up on turn 10 and wipe everybody out still?

[frogbeastegg]

GalCiv2 + expansions
Sins of a solar empire
Sword of the stars collectors edition (includes expansion plus other goodies)
Space empires V
Star Wars: empire at war
Imperium galactica 2
Star Wars: supremacy
Star Wars: galactic battlegrounds (the game which let me know I'd had enough of RTS games)
Star wars: force comander
Homeworld
Freelancer
If freelancer counts then X: beyond the frontier and X3: gold probably do too.

Some of those have yet to be played (SE V, SotS, X3, empire at war) Others have been played to death and beyond

I played the demo of BotF heavily yet never owned it. I couldn't afford it when it first came out, and couldn't find it later.

Sword of the stars was panned when it first came out so I ignored it totally. Then a bit ago I saw the announcement of the expansion on the quartertothree forums. The thread filled up with people declaring their love for the fully patched game plus first expansion. Can't wait until I get chance to settle down, read the lengthy documentation, and install the thing.



Sins wasn't all that for me either. It felt too much like age of empires and those other RTS games I got sick of many years ago. Start small, spam research and resource gathering, build flash army, skirmish while you build uber army, slowly stomp all over your enemy's base and win. Not enough to do away from that line, not enough variety from game to game. I haven't tried it with that big patch they released a bit ago; that's supposed to alter a lot.



[quote=Since I'm currently playing vanilla GalCiv 2 (I'm waiting/hoping for a full bundle to be released in an actual box), I have to ask: How does the AI compare? I know it received a major upgrade in Dark Avatar, and again with Twilight of the Arnor.[/quote]
It's been ages since I played vanilla Galciv2, and I'm not terribly aware of what AI tweaks have been done on it since Dread Lords release, so take this view with a measure of salt. It's a good improvement. The AI is less vulnerable to typical cheese, and has fewer senile moments. New strategies have been added to its book. I think it processes its turns faster. Obviously there's a lot which has been added specifically for the new features such as the race specific tech trees.

[Martok]

Did the mods sort out the problem with upgrading factories? That takes forever due to how they compute production.

They're both certainly better in this regard, yes. Whether they're enough of an improvement for your personal tastes, however, I obviously couldn't say. Best to judge such things for yourself.


Balance of Power Mod

Ultimate Dominion Mod III

And will the Borg show up on turn 10 and wipe everybody out still?

The Borg's stats have been changed (in both mods) so that they're not so ridiculously overpowered. A fleet will now usually be able to take down a single cube with more reasonable losses than in the vanilla game.

They're still a problem, however, because their ability to spawn multiple cubes is apparently hard-coded and can't be changed. Thus, players on harder difficulty setting can (and do) see five or more cubes running around killing everyone. It can be an effective way to win the game if they're picking on your enemies, but it also then can end up making it way too easy -- you can just follow the Borg and colonize the empty systems they leave behind. And even with cloaked warships, you'd still need an awfully big armada to take down that many Borg vessels (even if it was in succession and not all at once).

It's for that reason that I've always played with Random Events turned off....and continue to do so. One cube I could handle, but half a dozen? Not so much. Both mods alleviate the problem somewhat, but not completely. Unless the BOTF modding community were to ever get access to the hard-coded files, the Borg will continue to be unbalanced.

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So, can a list of recommendable games be made upon a limited level of agreement? My hibernation time has arrived and I'm thirsty for good games, namely strategy and RPG.
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Is there anything you particularly like or dislike in space strategy games? Knowing that would help in making a recommendation.

Sword of the stars was panned when it first came out so I ignored it totally. Then a bit ago I saw the announcement of the expansion on the quartertothree forums. The thread filled up with people declaring their love for the fully patched game plus first expansion. Can't wait until I get chance to settle down, read the lengthy documentation, and install the thing.

I would be very interested in hearing what your take is. Despite the lack of planetary conquest, I remain rather intrigued by the game's overall premise and design, and wouldn't rule out getting it if it's otherwise good.

It's been ages since I played vanilla Galciv2, and I'm not terribly aware of what AI tweaks have been done on it since Dread Lords release, so take this view with a measure of salt. It's a good improvement. The AI is less vulnerable to typical cheese, and has fewer senile moments. New strategies have been added to its book. I think it processes its turns faster. Obviously there's a lot which has been added specifically for the new features such as the race specific tech trees.

Appreciate the feedback, Froggy.

[frogbeastegg]

I would be very interested in hearing what your take is. Despite the lack of planetary conquest, I remain rather intrigued by the game's overall premise and design, and wouldn't rule out getting it if it's otherwise good.

It's probably going to be a while. Currently I'm playing games like "Interview tycoon II, the search for a part-time supervisor " and "Stock overload: where shall I put these next 300 books?" When I get home I'm all strategied out.

I'll give you a link to the thread which got me interested in the game. The people on that forum are a mature bunch and I've found their collective opinions on various titles well worth reading.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Is there anything you particularly like or dislike in space strategy games? Knowing that would help in making a recommendation.

Well, it will be my first time with Space Strats. But you can count me in with AOE-style unlovers.
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[Togakure]

I bought BotF back when it first came out, and for the most part I really liked it. I remember taking screenies of my Romulan War Birds in an exploding formation and making a desktop out it which looked really cool.

I got frustrated because I had an aging computer, and if my memory serves me right, as the game progressed it took longer and longer to process a turn, to the point where it became nigh unplayable. With regret, I retired the game. That was about when Shogun hit the market and it was bye bye space games until SFC Orion Pirates and eventually, MOO III.

Last August when I went back west to liquidate a majority of my things, I tossed SFC OP, BotF and Imperium Galactica I and II into the trash bin. I'm regretting that now, having just visited the BotF mod site. Gah.

[drone]

I got frustrated because I had an aging computer, and if my memory serves me right, as the game progressed it took longer and longer to process a turn, to the point where it became nigh unplayable. With regret, I retired the game.

There's a memory leak in there somewhere. The longer you play the game, the longer it took to run through the end-turn phase and the better the chance for a lockup. Once my empire got big, I would basically save and exit every 5-6 turns just to make it playable. There were also serious problems in LAN multiplayer, games would hang fairly regularly, but the multiplay game itself was pretty decent.

[Martok]

.But you can count me in with AOE-style unlovers.
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Well at least that rules out titles like Homeworld, Nexus, and Sins. Do you have particular preference for turn-based strategy games (such as the Civilization series) or real-time strategy games (like the Europa Universalis series)?

I bought BotF back when it first came out, and for the most part I really liked it. I remember taking screenies of my Romulan War Birds in an exploding formation and making a desktop out it which looked really cool.

I got frustrated because I had an aging computer, and if my memory serves me right, as the game progressed it took longer and longer to process a turn, to the point where it became nigh unplayable. With regret, I retired the game. That was about when Shogun hit the market and it was bye bye space games until SFC Orion Pirates and eventually, MOO III.

As drone said, there's a memory leak that causes a significant slowdown between turns (usually around Turn 120). It's easily the worst bug in the game, and of course it can't be fixed because the problem is in the files that are hard-coded. (Incidentally, this is another reason I would love to see BOTF on Good Old Games -- maybe they could finally fix it.)

Last August when I went back west to liquidate a majority of my things, I tossed SFC OP, BotF and Imperium Galactica I and II into the trash bin. I'm regretting that now, having just visited the BotF mod site. Gah.

Sorry to hear that, man.

Yeah, I think a big reason BOTF has retained such a loyal following over the years is because of all the mods that are available for it. The BOP & UDM3 mods are only two of the most popular -- there's also the Ultimate Mod (currently in its 4th version), the Uncivil War mod, the Planet & Building mod, etc. There's supposedly even a mod that allows you to play as the Borg (although I'm not sure how playable it is).

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I have no TB vs. RT preference.
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[Crandaeolon]

Sins of a Solar Empire was boring as hell if you ask me, no variation between factions, no story/campaign.

I didn't feel these were particularly hate-worthy points, but yes they could be considered weaknesses. The different playstyles of the factions open up only after some time of playing, but then you'll encounter the general shallowness and lack of balance (at least until versions 1.03-1.04, when I stopped playing.) The lack of campaign is a non-issue to me (how many RTS games have campaigns actually worth playing?), but it's quite understandably a weakness of Sins.

The UI seemed weird and unintuitive

This is somewhat baffling, though - the UI is generally considered one of the strong points of Sins. Could you elaborate a bit?

I would argue that the Space Empire games have too much stuff -- I always feel overwhelmed by the enormous number of ships, buildings, and technologies at my disposal.

Yes, Space Empire series is a bit too complex for its own good. It does try to alleviate the complexity with a lot of automation options, but doesn't do it very elegantly.

Maybe it's time to give Sword of the Stars another whirl. The lack of peaceful options never bothered me - gotta bomb 'em fugly tentacle dudes to oblivion anyways - but the shoddy combat interface and unsuitability for multiplayer did.

[CBR]

Yeah, Sword of the Stars actually looks pretty good. Unfortunately, I can't get past my previously-mentioned hangup with being forced to blow up the existing population instead of just conquering them. Also, it feels distinctly more military-oriented to me; I'd really like to have another option than just "take over the whole map by force".

Never played VGA Planets, although I certainly know of it. How did the gameplay work exactly, especially if there wasn't any tech to research?

A new expansion is coming out October 10 and that should have planetary surrender. There is an updated demo if you have not already tried it. There are also some video walkthroughs here

It does indeed focus mainly on military conquest although expansions are bringing in more stuff. In that sense the game is close to VGA Planets and Stars! gameplay, although turns do not take as much work and it generally has more turns compared to the older games that were PBEM.

In VGA Planets 3 you had 4 different techs: Hull, Beam weapons, Torpedo weapons and Engines and they were from 1 to 10. You already knew the techs but had to spend money increasing it to what level you wanted on each starbase. So it was more a question of money and what you wanted to use the starbase for.

The advantage of that approach was that you could, depending on money and planets found, start building good quality warships by perhaps turn 15. That is IMO essential in a PBEM whereas Stars! used regular research which meant it was actually good to not get involved in wars in the beginning unless you could get an easy win (and that only happens against new players)


CBR