Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[johnhughthom]

unvote, Vote: Chaotix

[TheLastDays]

glyphz is not cult leader or Hades unless their goal is to get themselves lynched. His voting record is too suicidal for scum

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

glyphz is not cult leader or Hades unless their goal is to get themselves lynched. His voting record is too suicidal for scum

I myself just realized a few things to point to why glyphz can't be scum.


Unvote:Captain Blackadder

Vote: Chaotix

[Beskar]

Explanation for my voting.

It was clear Chaotix was a suspect and with the cult unable to recruit him (thanks to MRD for the reveal) he was worried for his own personal safety. The cult suspected him since their previous two attempts to influence mafia (Renata and Andres). So Chaotix claims roleblocker which makes him pro-town. Since the Cult confess they are against the mafia and worried they might be killed off, having a roleblocker around to stop their biggest enemy (cue: Night Killer), it is easy enough for them to back off. With the explanation there are gods working for the town, the cult buys the "it is because I am a power role" (sic) and so do the town, since well, it sort of makes sense.

However, with Classical_Hero a confessed god now recruited by the cult apparently, this changes this argument entirely. Since the "cult" was able to recruit him. This means that "being a god" isn't an explanation, however, the original of "Cult cannot recruit scum" would still be a valid conclusion.

Chaotix has been making some weird role blocking choices the last couple of nights, none of them against The Last Days, our number 1 suspect and also "his". Which is very weird in itself and now on the night Chaotix is meant to actually roleblock him, he dies, which makes no sense at all for any actual mafia other than Chaotix himself.

Also, why hasn't the mafia attempted to kill Chaotix?! Why oh why.. he has been looking "innocent" so he wouldn't have been lynched and a roleblocker would be a massive threat to them, it is mindboggling makes no sense.

In short, there are many different factors which contribute to this argument, too many for "reasonable doubt" to be applied. Thus, Chaotix should be lynched.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I edited my prior voting post by accident and I want it count,so here it is.

Unvote:Captain Blackadder

Vote: Chaotix

[Earthling]

Chaotix is the worst possible lynch for the town. He's clearly not Hades unless the cult is purely anti-town, and still not a good reason to think he's Hades for sure then, which is a case where we auto-lose anyway so so rather not go with that. Even a random wagon on someone unknown like Warman is better, if it only wastes a day.

But I'd recommend MRD if we can get him. That's the best possible way for people to show that they are townies, it would vastly narrow down our pool of suspects, assuming Hades is not part of the cult, or break the cult and ruin Hades' scheme if he is.

[Beskar]

I also appeal to those in the cult to make sure this lynch occurs, obviously your biggest threat is the night killer and if you are telling the truth, then you would clearly want to stop them in their tracks and prove to us you want to work with the town like you say so.

[Earthling]

Beskar, zero of what you are saying is making sense. Andres was not with the main mafia group. classical_hero didn't say he was converted. You're contradicting your own very recent vote and reasoning on glyphz.

Plus your belief that Angra Mainyu is a player is really shoddy.

Are you a cultist perhaps?

[Riedquat]

Why haven't you been attacked Chaotix? that is the big question...

Vote: Chaotix

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Chaotix is the worst possible lynch for the town. He's clearly not Hades unless the cult is purely anti-town, and still not a good reason to think he's Hades for sure then, which is a case where we auto-lose anyway so so rather not go with that. Even a random wagon on someone unknown like Warman is better, if it only wastes a day.

But I'd recommend MRD if we can get him. That's the best possible way for people to show that they are townies, it would vastly narrow down our pool of suspects, assuming Hades is not part of the cult, or break the cult and ruin Hades' scheme if he is.

So you want to waste a vote on a non-scum like me yet..... Chaotix is OK?

[Earthling]

There is no evidence at all of what you are Warman, is what it is. If you are a townie, it's a bad lynch, but have to go somewhere, especially if other lurker-unknowns like Blackadder or dcmort had scans or blocks as evidence on them.

Chaotix is not Hades.

So townies should lynch MRD as he's our only sure option. Sure, all those not voting him will be cult but that's ok, hopefully town can still win the lynch and the next night should clear up any confusion for anyone.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

There is no evidence at all of what you are Warman, is what it is. If you are a townie, it's a bad lynch, but have to go somewhere, especially if other lurker-unknowns like Blackadder or dcmort had scans or blocks as evidence on them.

Chaotix is not Hades.

So townies should lynch MRD as he's our only sure option. Sure, all those not voting him will be cult but that's ok, hopefully town can still win the lynch and the next night should clear up any confusion for anyone.

Well I know what I am, is what it is. Do you have any proof Chaotix is not Hades, if so, please enlighten me since I don't read (don't got the time or the energy to read 50 posts a day in one thread) every post in this game.

[Earthling]

Do you have any proof Chaotix is not Hades

Yes, he's a town-aligned roleblocker, the god Janus.

Beskar has lied to the town multiple times, today and a couple of other recent instances, he's probably part of the cult by now too (which makes sense, that they would recruit active players before the inactive ones).

Nevertheless townies should still be able to vote, and should vote MRD.

[Beskar]

There is indications of both a Fire guy and a Black Ooze guy, we might be looking at two possible killers, not simply one.

I think the cult is telling the truth about their alignment themselves, none of their dead members have ever turned up as being scum in the write-ups and the ones they accused of being scum have turned up as scum. Apparently Askthepizzaguy, Andres (first time), Death is Yonder and others who have been killed were all cultists. All their write-ups have indicated of them actually being town. According to them as well, recruited members retain their normal victory conditions (getting rid of the mafia), it is sort of a "recruited pro town network" as it were.

People they have failed was Renata and Andres (second time), both of these turned up as scum in the write-ups. With what Classical_Hero being a 'god' and was recruited, in comparison to Chaotix, that casts a big figure on Chaotix's true alignment.

Since the cult is looking for Angra Mainyu as well, Chaotix wouldn't obviously be him and Chaotix has claimed to be some one else. All in short - There is a very strong possibility Chaotix is not town aligned and scum of some sort.

As for cults? Bring on the cult overlord, the worst that could happen is that I get night killed before I end up recruited into the winning side if the cult truly are not town aligned.

[TheLastDays]

Well, what the cult says doesn't make sense either.

Let's take the case of Andres. He was a town aligned roleblocker and then got recruited to cult A - killed - revived as town - recruted during the revival or after? - to cult B? - so which cult wasn't able to recruit him? How many cults are there? What if there is no cult at all and MRD is making all this up in his sick head? I'm willing to put this to a test and lynch MRD.

@ Beskar: classical claimed to have been recruited? Do we have evidence on this? If so, where does it come from? MRD?

[TheLastDays]

Nah fire guy and black ooze killer are the same.

Whast you're saying makes little to no sense, Beskar.

[Earthling]

Let's break all this down. This is absurd Beskar, it's hard to believe you're really coming up with this as a townie.

All their write-ups have indicated of them actually being town.

Clearly false. Pizza's writeup indicates he's not a townie, if it indicates anything, indeed all along it's been on top of the list of possible neutral writeups, it also happens to be similar to fluffy's but matches neither town nor scum writeups.

People they have failed was Renata and Andres (second time), both of these turned up as scum in the write-ups.

This is an obvious lie. You can't possibly believe Andres was actually mafia yet you keep saying it. If you do believe Andres was mafia, then why not vote for classical, who revived a mafia and just lied to the town about who he was.

With what Classical_Hero being a 'god' and was recruited, in comparison to Chaotix, that casts a big figure on Chaotix's true alignment.

classical here just said today that he was not part of the cult. Not going to pursue the people (cultists) obviously lying about their roles? So are you just letting them lie to you or are you just with them?

Since the cult is looking for Angra Mainyu as well

There is zero evidence of this. Where are you getting this from, if your role was always a basic townie?

[Beskar]

@ Beskar: classical claimed to have been recruited? Do we have evidence on this? If so, where does it come from? MRD?

The Cult recruited Andres near the beginning, for reasons unknown to them at the time, Andres died. Andres claimed later he had an ability but he didn't know who the Cult recruiter was, so didn't protect them, but GH instead.

When Andres got revived, he was no longer under control of the Cult. Obviously, the cult attempted to recruit him asap (the whole he could reveal everything) but that failed for reasons unknown. Later when Andres was lynched, he was saying Angra Mainyu was a false leader, etc. Obviously between there, Andres ended up recruited into a different faction.

As for my explanations, they make perfect sense, how don't they make sense to you?

The cult claimed privately they recruited Classical_Hero, and I am sure if Classical_Hero wants to get mafia killed, he will reveal this himself.

[Earthling]

As for my explanations, they make perfect sense, how don't they make sense to you?

The cult claimed privately they recruited Classical_Hero, and I am sure if Classical_Hero wants to get mafia killed, he will reveal this himself.

So you're just being obviously lied to.

For one, it's impossible for Andres to be mafia. He died blocking an attack from the mafia after all.

What is clearly possible is he was some rival neutral/second-cult/anti-cult group. You're being lied to by the cult.

It makes no sense from a game balance perspective that a cult with massive recruiting capabilities can just catch all the mafia.

What makes far more sense, if the cult is neutral and their goal was to defeat some other neutrals, is that mafia could just be converted by the cult themselves and look like regular recruits. Doesn't change the cult/neutral conflicts and doesn't change the mafia/town status.

Or if the cult is anti-town, then it makes sense that they can't recruit the mafia, but then we LOSE to the cult if we don't do something, so worth a lynch today if that's the case.

Lynch MRD.

[Beskar]

This is an obvious lie. You can't possibly believe Andres was actually mafia yet you keep saying it. If you do believe Andres was mafia, then why not vote for classical, who revived a mafia and just lied to the town about who he was.

Because he was recruited by the cult last night, according to their sources.

classical here just said today that he was not part of the cult.

He also said he couldn't be recruited, or so he thought so because he was a god. Well, they just recruited him... which throws the theory that stopped Chaotix being lynched into the hot water, since the only way he survived is because the cult willed it, simply because they thought that argument had theory, and since their biggest threat is the night attacker..

There is zero evidence of this. Where are you getting this from, if your role was always a basic townie?

Why would the cult make up finding Angra Mainyu ? You could question their motivates, for example "They want to kill him" opposed to their version that Ishtar wants to make herself his consort.


Either way, you are completely forgetting the other arguments, there was no reason ever that Chaotix was going to be lynched, with you and the cult and other theories which kept him alive. During this time, the "mafia" purposefully kept Chaotix alive... for what reason, why wouldn't the mafia have killed Chaotix straight away? If I was the mafia, I would have killed Chaotix that night or have attempted to, the roleblocker would be a terrible threat and due to me and Chaotix's history, I wouldn't be surprised if he spammed roleblock on me. Also, another very important point, Chaotix hasn't actually roleblocked anyone, there is no account of it ever occuring, plus he hasn't gone for suspect number 1 for 3 nights running and the night TLD is meant to get roleblocked, he gets killed. Only way to explain it would be the argument of accountability, since if TLD is roleblocked, he would be cleared of being "mafia", since he is now "cleared" no one would persue him.

In short, it was coming to the stage where it is either TLD is the mafia or we have overlooked something big. With TLD dead, we have seriously overlooked something. Since the Cult desperately wants the night killer dead themselves for obvious reasons, why not simply work with the cult and stop the mafia ? If the mafia is stopped, the cult could easily recruit everyone else anyway so they would get a victory regardless.

As statistical man Romanic says "It is the Win that counts". Either get recruited and win, or end up dead in the morning? Both are not the best choice, but hey, I rather be a winner than a loser.

[Beskar]

For one, it's impossible for Andres to be mafia. He died blocking an attack from the mafia after all.

You mean during the time Andres was a cultist working for Ishtar, and not the 2nd time where he wasn't working for Ishtar and in the write-up confessed to being scum by insulting Angra Mainyu ? You need to correct your facts a little.

You're being lied to by the cult.

Doubtful, especially if you follow your theory that I am recruited into the cult, and if I was recruited, I would know this information as fact... which eitherway, supports what I am saying, I don't think the cult has any reason to lie about who the night killer is. They want the night killer as dead as us, for different reasons, maybe, but still the same goal.

It makes no sense from a game balance perspective that a cult with massive recruiting capabilities can just catch all the mafia.

The cult started off as one person, the recruiter. That person would have to survive late into the game and some how survive being lynched, being night killed, being roleblocked and dealing with people for example Andres, who became recruited and could tell everyone who the cultists were. The fact they say they only got 50% of the vote now and lconfessed to members of theirs who have died (Andres, Pizza, DIY, etc) and failed recruiting (Renata, Andres(2), Chaotix) and you can see easily how a cult is kept in check, especially as they don't really have any power roles of themselves.

What makes far more sense, if the cult is neutral and their goal was to defeat some other neutrals, is that mafia could just be converted by the cult themselves and look like regular recruits. Doesn't change the cult/neutral conflicts and doesn't change the mafia/town status.

Their goal is to kill the mafia since the gods of heaven and hell hate Ishtar, which means Ishtar has to stay alive in the mortal plane. With the vision of Angra's future, she is attempting to align herself to Angra for her own survival. This is why they are stating they want Angra Mainyu, as she wants to "sleep with him" and align herself with his cause by becoming his consort. Thus they have to find Angra before he dies and thus survive till the end of the game. Difficult task!

Lynch MRD.

Chaotix said he roleblocked MRD and nothing happened. Also MRD said himself he is the voice of the cult. In otherways, either way you look at it, it is pretty much a waste of a lynch. It would make more sense to kill a non-cultist then MRD, which in turn makes it more sense to lynch Chaotix than a non-cultist due to the overall scumming I have posted.

[Earthling]

Beskar, you clearly haven't thought anything through at all. Or you're not town and just playing a fun little cultist here, but let's go with thinking caps.

Forget the fact that you're purposefully trying to lynch a townie power role for no reason, and that it's completely unrealistic for Chaotix to have committed the recent night kills if he's scum.

Let's just start with another question on why you're not lynching other people- why should you assume all cultists are clear of being mafia?

Take Andres. Andres was not town by your own statements, yet recruited by the cult. This is clear proof that scum roles could be recruited by this cult, given your own beliefs. Of course you could personally believe something crazy like Andres was with the main mafia group...but then you'd be lynching classical_hero, right? And it still means the cult could recruit scum. There is no evidence of the cult ever recruiting a town power role and that still makes sense.

Also, why would a mafia godfather able to kill through protection be caught out by simple cult recruitment?

Hades being already part of the cult is easily the best theory we have, and it explains all the kills plus relying on sheepish cultist votes to eliminate people like Chaotix.

[Earthling]

You mean during the time Andres was a cultist working for Ishtar, and not the 2nd time where he wasn't working for Ishtar and in the write-up confessed to being scum by insulting Angra Mainyu ? You need to correct your facts a little.

You're flat out lying, if you're going to be like that hopefully real townies can see through it.

How was Andres with the main mafia group? He got revived by classical, is that your explanation?

And Chaotix voted for him, so he's clearly not mafia by your own logic.

[Choxorn]

Doubtful, especially if you follow your theory that I am recruited into the cult, and if I was recruited, I would know this information as fact... which eitherway, supports what I am saying, I don't think the cult has any reason to lie about who the night killer is. They want the night killer as dead as us, for different reasons, maybe, but still the same goal.

There is, of course, the alternate theory, that you're a cult member and you're just lying your pants off to obfuscate that and get Chaotix killed so you can win.

I find that one to be the most likely, seeing as how if most of what you and MRD are saying is true, you're so obviously a cultist it's not even funny.

[Beskar]

Forget the fact that you're purposefully trying to lynch a townie power role for no reason, and that it's completely unrealistic for Chaotix to have committed the recent night kills if he's scum.

False, it is not completely unrealistic. How? Where?

If anything, the evidence highly suggests the opposite, that he is indeed behind the night actions.

Let's just start with another question on why you're not lynching other people- why should you assume all cultists are clear of being mafia?

The cultists have the motive to kill the mafia, therefore, they would cooperate in getting rid of a mutual enemy. They wouldn't waste their times trying to kill a roleblock with a lynch, a roleblocker isn't a threat to the cultists, they control half the town. What is a threat is a night killer, so if the cultists change their tune suddenly because of them recruiting classical_hero, it makes sense for them to go after chaotix so suddenly.

Take Andres. Andres was not town by your own statements, yet recruited by the cult. This is clear proof that scum roles could be recruited by this cult, given your own beliefs.

No, Andres started the game as a town aligned, that changed after he was revived and also no longer part of the cult. Which is especially strange considering when the cult could no longer recruit him, he turned out to have became scum. Therefore, cult recruitment has a scum indicator on it. Obviously, a normal townie would go "So you failed to recruit him.. omg you are cult scumz, lynch him!" therefore a cult leader wouldn't go public with this information. Also, the cult couldn't recruit Renata either who was also scum. So two scum people were not recruit-able. Now we ended up with Chaotix and I already typed that argument 3 to 4 times already.

Hades being already part of the cult is easily the best theory we have, and it explains all the kills plus relying on sheepish cultist votes to eliminate people like Chaotix.

No it wouldn't, even if the mafia was involved with the cult, they would want Chaotix dead asap as he isn't part of the cult and thus still a big threat to them.

You're flat out lying, if you're going to be like that hopefully real townies can see through it..

I am not lying at all. It is simply that you have an alternative agenda in defending Chaotix, most likely incorrect and mistaken loyalty.

[Beskar]

There is, of course, the alternate theory, that you're a cult member and you're just lying your pants off to obfuscate that and get Chaotix killed so you can win.

You really want to know the real kicker? The cult would then by your theory control the vote anyway, so the "town" if the cult was really anti-town aligned has already lost and I am just making valid arguments on who the scum are for giggles and we can just make silent votes with no explanation just to screw with you.

However, I digress, I don't need to lie to get Chaotix lynched, the truth of him being scum is enough.

[Choxorn]

My point being: You, MRD, and a couple of others are cultists who either have almost won or have already won, and can't win unless Chaotix dies first.

[Chaotix]

Err... what?

Beskar, I did block TLD last night. Problem was, we both alluded to it in the thread that he was going to be my target. Hades must have caught on to this, and that's why he killed him.

It's a rather effective and annoying way of keeping me from making progress on my innocents list. Hades guessed correctly that I was going to roleblock TLD- obviously we know now that TLD is not mafia, and Hades knew that, too. So as soon as khaan came in with that write-up, whether TLD was dead or not, there would have been a kill, and I would have been able to clear TLD by that. So since TLD would no longer be lynchbait... he was killed off.

As for why I haven't been attacked yet- obviously Hades is right in assuming that you guys are going to lynch me anyway, so maybe he thinks he doesn't have to. Alternately, I mentioned there's a doctor protecting me. So perhaps he thinks he's not going to be able to kill through another protection.

Stop being so paranoid.

TLD was the number one suspect, and he's cleared now. There are several other players who are cleared of being Hades by my roleblocks- classical_hero is one of them, so while he may or may not be a cultist, he's not a useful lynch right now.

johnhughthom is pretty obviously acting like the cult leader right now, what with constantly wanting me dead. It fits in with what MRD said. We get rid of him, it's likely the cult will dissolve/stop growing.

glyphz was blocked three times early in the game, all before Hades showed up and started killing. Therefore I deem him a possible and likely suspect.

Vote: glyphz

This is my vote right now. I am going to do some searching and see if it changes.

[Beskar]

My point being: You, MRD, and a couple of others are cultists who either have almost won or have already won, and can't win unless Chaotix dies first.

Because he is the ooze/flame guy going around night killing? Obviously I would want him dead if he is the mafia?

Stop being so paranoid.

It is a mafia game, I cannot help it.

[Earthling]

It's impossible for Chaotix to be Hades. If you people are going to listen to pizza, who was a dead nobody at best, and the cult actually claiming he was a dead cultist so not even town, listen to dead townies too.

johnhughthom is an acceptable shot at really getting the cult leader but the problem is he's just not mafia so it could be wasted lynch in that sense, while there's an outside shot with MRD of being another scum under the crunchy cultist exterior.