ORG, TWC, and the Official Forum - what would the ORG specialize in?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Personally I feel forming close ties with a few nice folk is much more important than barely knowing ten thousand people. Once we give the regular contributors a sense of belonging and appreciation, they will stay.

This is an important point. What we should be striving for is around double to quadruple our current active members (~760), not trying to get into the tens of thousands.

[Andres]

@Axalon

About treating all games and their communities equal. Each and every single TW game has their own subfora already. Because the games are older, there's less activity, less members. The resources are here for everybody. But except for the EB fora, where there are regular screenshot contests and other activities, there aren't many people around asking for our resources.

As for being more clear about the different branches of staff, you can find more info on the .Org staff structure HERE.

I see the point of the focus being almost exclusively on the newest total war game. But isn't that normal? After all, there are already tons of informations and discussions about the older games. People looking for help and advice for an older game, will most likely find that information in an old thread. If people post about TW, what are they most likely going to post about? The new game of course. Because, well that's new There will be far more unanswered questions about the new game than about the old game. So if we want to attract new members (and every community needs a regular influx of new blood in order to survive), we need to give them as much useful information about the new game as possible. That's the carrot we need to hold in front of people to make them sign up.

Once they're signed up, it's the task of the existing community, staff and members alike, to make those new members feel welcome. Talk to them. Make them feel at home. There lies the leading role of staff. But the members need to do their share of the work too.

I understand your point of keeping the fire burning in dying fora, but there's only so much staff can do. We don't have an infinite amount of logs to throw on the fire; if most of the time, it are our logs that are needed to throw on the fire and all too seldom somebody else throws his own log, it won't work, imo.

It's a forum, the community doesn't care if lots of attention are given else ware as long as they are having fun with each other.

That's a key element. People sign up because they are TW fans; they stay because they have fun talking to other people.

Axalon, I see your point in your previous post about spam and frivolity being disruptive. But on a forum, spam, nonsense, bad jokes, etc. are key elements. It's why most people stay, because it's just fun to fool around a bit; it makes the forum "less dry" and for most people, it's the having fun with each other part that really makes them come to a certain forum. Your point isn't without merit though, but it goes only for a set number of fora: the Guides fora and the modding section can't have nonsensical funny post that add nothing. Outside those however, there's room for "just having some fun", imo.

About modding prolonging the playability of the game, that's very true. But what more can the .Org do to have modders come over here besides giving them facilities (their own fora (visible or invisible), a place to upload files, putting up advertisement to announce a release/changes/to let the community know you're looking for extra team members)? It is true that having a new gaming experience with a mod will result in people posting about it and will generate more activity, but again: what more can we do than reach out a hand to the modders, tell them they can have a lot of facilities and resources?

So, if the modders don't come, what do we have left to make members stay and post once they got the TW info they came for? The non totalwar related fora. After welcoming them and talking to them in the first fora they visit, we need to invite them over to other fora. Show them the way around here. It's difficult to find your way on our current forum index. It's longish and we're working on shortening it, making a simplified version so people can find their way around here more easy. "Old" members should advertise their favourite off topic forum in their sigs. Talk about their favourite subforum in other fora. Things like that.

Once we give the regular contributors a sense of belonging and appreciation, they will stay.

Not just the "regular contributors" but all contributors.

[frogbeastegg]

I can certainly see your point and I agree totally, it could be a very useful and effective tool. Assuming that it will not be overused and lose all meaning... Like the stars on threads.... It has ended up in 5 stars or no stars and usually completely arbitrary, or so I believe. As I understand it, this star-stuff is strictly a staff-thing/option, so I guess you guys are to blame for all that.... :)

Staff normally use the tool to draw attention to the thread they feel is noteworthy in some way. One person's opinion of what's notable is not always another's, and at the moment there's no way for that second opinion to change the thread's average rating. Since we want to encourage people to post, staff are not likely to mark topics down. That would be giving them an official "Boring!" sign, one step away from closing them as spam. At least a closed topic gets a note from the person responsible, making it less ... callous. A public system wouldn't have quite the same sting to it.

The system may or may not work. We'd need to see how people react to it. If people started spamming 5 or 1 star ratings on everything the feature would be disabled again.

I wonder, is it even possible to remove the stars completely from a thread? I would actually be intersted in getting a solid answer on that.

Possible, yes. Easy, no. It needs to be changed manually on a per-thread basis. Only admin can do that.

So, put it in stasis then... Things might just change some day...

It's in with our other zombie ideas, shambling about and wailing "Braaaaaains!" whilst it waits for the day when it can return.

[Axalon]

Alright Andres, I'll reply to your post in bit and pieces over multiple posts and work my self down on it whenever I might have some comments for it. So, first up...

About treating all games and their communities equal. Each and every single TW game has their own subfora already.

That is not true... CA's NTW has no own section/sub-fora at the ORG (whatever you want to call it). It is all bunched up with ETW. If NTW had it's own section, your claim would be true. As it has not, your claim falls apart.

Personally, I don't give a flying rats ass about NTW - never even bothered with it. However, I can look beyond myself and at the bigger picture here - and then it certainly does have a strong symbolical importance. If all ALL released TW-PC-games were to have each a section as per game. The ORG will then at least have a rhetorical ace that no other fan-forum can counter or compete with. "We seriously deal with all TW, not just with some TW". Namely, "one game, one section - we treat every game seriously enough to have that".... Get my drift? If you ask me, it's worthwhile to do it just to be able to say that - and it might even convince some NTW-fan or two to sign up here as well - and I fail to see the harm in that. You could use the same personnel as now, if that works fine as it is? Their responsibilities would probably be the about the same even if it in a strictly formal sense it would be "doubled" due to another TW-section.

Personally, I always valued the ORG due to its egalitarian tendencies towards TW, to me that is a major strength of this place - as no such tendencies are truly found and practiced elsewhere (so far, that can change as well). ALL other fan sites bunches games together somehow or possibly fail to address some game(s) completely. Its a classic and standard mistake and I fail to see any good reason why the ORG should do it as well... And yet again lose another possible edge to other sites. Why?

Because the games are older, there's less activity, less members.

I agree. However a heavier focus on mods may very well slow that process down significantly - hell even reverse it somewhat. It has happened before (in other games), and I think it can again - if we work on it. MTW2 is still the biggest TW over at the TWC and its hardly because the original game is exceptional somehow - it's because of the mods for it. I do suggest that we should at least try to consider ways to retain and activate the remaining existing "regular" members of section X. Instead of just leaving it be. I think it is at least worth to consider, not just passively stand by and let it fade away - staff included, because this is not solely the members responsibility - it is the staffs as well. I think TinCow is right, in the way that a few regular posts here and there on your "fave game" could do "plenty of bang" in relation to the actual effort. I think it is well worth a try, I mean what do we have to lose by trying it? About zero it seems?

The resources are here for everybody. But except for the EB fora, where there are regular screenshot contests and other activities, there aren't many people around asking for our resources.

Oh... That does set things in a different light, doesn't it? Well, at least we should try to consider ways to change that reality, no? I'll be happy to use some resources, I'll just have to find ways in which it is warranted to do so.


As for the branches of staff...

I have no objections to that outlined model, it looks good in general. My gripe is basically that the content-branch don't seem to operate beyond STW2 (do they at all?) - which I believe they should. There are 5-6(?) of these guys and I have yet to see them post or show any sort of presence in the MTW1 section for instance (this since the branch was set up). They should search for news, content and stuff in every TW-section to promote, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be able to find something somewhere because of it. The one-sided focus on STW2 does not cut it. It is a poor implementation of an otherwise good idea, the practice should be changed as to include ALL TW and what goes on here and not just for STW2. That's, essentially my criticism here.

I'll use my own stuff as an example to prove my point. Now, I seriously doubt that had I not posted up my notes on the front-page myself - the content-branch would have missed it completely that I had a major release in April 2012. I mean, this is a grand-scale mod - some 7000+ files strong (this in total, the mod as such is about 6800 files, latest version). Hell even the folks over at the TWC realize that such stuff is news and so that stuff has been reported on - several times - in their publications over the years and it will probably be so again some day, over there. That's the TWC... The place that usually don't give a damn about MTW1 or STW1 essentially... Here, at the ORG however, no such thing has ever been attempted - even once - this since the content-branch was first created and I have now had 4 major releases since then. So, is it fair to say that the content-branch could do a better job? I think it is very reasonable to say so... Because if they are able to miss something like that - god knows what else they have missed around here that is not STW2. Get my drift?

As I understand things, it should not have been me that posted the existing notes on my stuff, it should have been them... I mean, it certainly strikes me as something that falls under aspect of, and I quote "maintain and promote content". Or did I get that declaration completely wrong somehow?

The ORG needs to take better care of the mods and stuff it actually has and make sure that the people that really do provide actual "content" here on their own (modders etc.) can feel recognized and supported here by staff. Not by some pretty words, but by active and regular action, hell even a post or two to show for it (not just to the modders, but to the rest of the world as well).... If you pull that off and do it seriously - and regularly - then you will eventually have more modders that feels it might just be worthwhile to start operate here and that will clearly work beneficial for the site. More modders and mods = more traffic. Just saying...

I'll do more comments later on...

- A

[Axalon]

As for post: 149-151....

If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first. After having done that, you can disagree with everything in it as much as you want. Preferably, by providing some solid reasons for it.

- A

[a completely inoffensive name]

As for post: 149-151....

If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first. After having done that, you can disagree with everything in it as much as you want. Preferably, by providing some solid reasons for it.

- A

I did read it. And I still think it is a whole lot of words that ultimately say nothing relevant.

[Peasant Phill]

...As for the branches of staff...

I have no objections to that outlined model, it looks good in general. My gripe is basically that the content-branch don't seem to operate beyond STW2 (do they at all?) - which I believe they should. There are 5-6(?) of these guys and I have yet to see them post or show any sort of presence in the MTW1 section for instance (this since the branch was set up). They should search for news, content and stuff in every TW-section to promote, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be able to find something somewhere because of it. The one-sided focus on STW2 does not cut it. It is a poor implementation of an otherwise good idea, the practice should be changed as to include ALL TW and what goes on here and not just for STW2. That's, essentially my criticism here.

I'll use my own stuff as an example to prove my point. Now, I seriously doubt that had I not posted up my notes on the front-page myself - the content-branch would have missed it completely that I had a major release in April 2012. I mean, this is a grand-scale mod - some 7000+ files strong (this in total, the mod as such is about 6800 files, latest version). Hell even the folks over at the TWC realize that such stuff is news and so that stuff has been reported on - several times - in their publications over the years and it will probably be so again some day, over there. That's the TWC... The place that usually don't give a damn about MTW1 or STW1 essentially... Here, at the ORG however, no such thing has ever been attempted - even once - this since the content-branch was first created and I have now had 4 major releases since then. So, is it fair to say that the content-branch could do a better job? I think it is very reasonable to say so... Because if they are able to miss something like that - god knows what else they have missed around here that is not STW2. Get my drift?

As I understand things, it should not have been me that posted the existing notes on my stuff, it should have been them... I mean, it certainly strikes me as something that falls under aspect of, and I quote "maintain and promote content". Or did I get that declaration completely wrong somehow?

The ORG needs to take better care of the mods and stuff it actually has and make sure that the people that really do provide actual "content" here on their own (modders etc.) can feel recognized and supported here by staff. Not by some pretty words, but by active and regular action, hell even a post or two to show for it (not just to the modders, but to the rest of the world as well).... If you pull that off and do it seriously - and regularly - then you will eventually have more modders that feels it might just be worthwhile to start operate here and that will clearly work beneficial for the site. More modders and mods = more traffic. Just saying...

I'll do more comments later on...

- A

Hi @Axalon, I appreciate your input. I'm not taking anything you say personal and anything I say shouldn't be viewed solely as a way to evade my respsonsabilities. Rather as an explenation of the current situation and a base from which suggestions can be brought forward.

As a CM I feel I must respond to your comments above. The content staff is rather small. There are 5 of us at the moment, I believe, 2 with an assigned task (throne room for example). That leaves 3 for the entire Org. Keeping that number up has been very dificult. CM's seem to burn out fast and new ones are hard to find.
I probably spent around 1,5 to 2 hours on the Org every day (with some exeptions of course) reading and posting in no less than 7 subfora (staff subfora included). That doesn't include small side tasks originating from being a CM. I can honestly say I can do no more (unles I get payed).
I'm sure great content is missed on a daily basis. At the moment it can't be helped. That's why the tools have been provided to post your own articles on the front page, to make your own blog on the Org. You say it's the job of a CM to find every worthwile contribution and put it in a spotlight. I say the possibility is here to put your contributions in the spotlight and the CM's are here to help if you would need it. If that makes me obselete in your eyes, I will gladly step down (I could do with a sabatical).

Concerning the so-called overemphasis on Shogun 2, I can say that this is a deliberate strategy. New TW titles bring in new members. As staff (certainly the CM's), we agreed that Shogun 2 and it's following games would get priority (together with one or two other subfora). It's only logical. I wish we had enough CM's (and time) to give every subforum equal attention but that just isn't the case.

So what to do about it?
One simple word: emancipation. The CM's can't be everywhere so you (every member) have to draw our attention. If you have contributed something worthwhile or have seen such a contribution by another member, just PM me or Graphic or Voigtkampf. We'll gladly put it in the spotlight.

Hope to have cleared a few things up.
PP

[Maltz]

If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first.

I am actually in full support of... "self support". If contributors feel that they have done a great work, they should actively seek ways to promote their babies and not wait for the moderators to be englightened. Different moderators have different areas of interests, and it is very easy for a moderator to completely ignore an unfamiliar area simply because they cannot easily tell exceptional from average. And the contributors are fully justified to request the promotion of their works.

Modding is certainly an important area of modern games and should receive significant attention. I personally do not use mods for STW2 because I feel there are already enough vanilla contents, but I know many others will immediately apply mods without playing vanilla.

Yet currently the TWC modding community has been significantly developed and I wonder whether it would be meaningful to set up just a mirror site in ORG. Here is a question for modding experts - is the TWC lacking in a particular modding area that we can fill? Or It might be hard to maintain a sustainable modding community in the ORG otherwise.

[Axalon]

Another post for you Andres, related to post:152....

I see the point of the focus being almost exclusively on the newest total war game. But isn't that normal? After all, there are already tons of informations and discussions about the older games. People looking for help and advice for an older game, will most likely find that information in an old thread. If people post about TW, what are they most likely going to post about? The new game of course. Because, well that's new There will be far more unanswered questions about the new game than about the old game. So if we want to attract new members (and every community needs a regular influx of new blood in order to survive), we need to give them as much useful information about the new game as possible. That's the carrot we need to hold in front of people to make them sign up.

I have zero problems following your logic. And plenty of it does makes excellent sense. However, that does not necessarily mean that I do come to the same conclusions as you do, or look at it in the same way. There are other aspects to it as well – that should at least be considered here. If we do that, things will get more complicated and problematic, or so I believe. I have already been pointing at this stuff and I will now do so again, but this time in more detail as to get the point across.

Now, Information is good stuff, hell its great stuff – but – it is also standard stuff. Essentially available and offered in every site somehow. Here is where “normal” works against us… Hoping to beat the competition and come out on top with that somehow strikes me as unrealistic, at best an unreliable strategy. If we look at the results so far this strategy has failed to deliver any promising results that actually warrants further confidence in it. So, the supposed carrot you speak of is practically available every forum that covers STW2 somehow. That’s one bit.

Then there is also the matter of the site “standing out in the crowd”, this strategy fails to do that as it does not truly offer something that enables that in the first place. At least if we look at this soberly, we can hardly expect that offering the same thing as everybody else is going to set us drastically apart somehow. Our carrot is essentially the same as any other available everywhere basically. That’s a second bit.

Then the factor of the casual gamers (which clearly will be the majority of potentials we are hoping for here, as we are dealing with the latest game. In effect STW2/FOTS, so far) and what we might realistically expect of them. In this strategy we are obviously focusing on the casual gamer, more then anything else. At best, they do sign up, they do their utterly self-serving posts and then they will disappear once they have no further need for us - very possibly forever. They simply don’t give a rat’s ass about this site or the people that frequent this place. I think it is naïve to deny that. We essentially have no reason what so ever to assume anything other then a strikingly small minority will actually break that pattern and do stick around – long term. The track record obviously supports this conclusion as well. So, we are essentially waving the carrot to the wrong crowd. That’s a third bit.

The effort and focus on this strategy, is hardly properly motivated either as it is not a very effective in actually generating that new blood – this in large part due to the third bit. Again the track record is rather clear about that. Plenty of energy and attention must be invested to cater these STW2-arrivals making sure they have that information that you are talking about. The effort of holding that carrot does not stand in reasonable proportion to the actual gains of holding it up there. That’s a fourth bit.

Then there is the aspect of this strategy failing to recognize that the TW-community is not one but several communities. Now, while the focus is steadily fixed on catering the “STW2”-folk we simply lack a serious “plan-B” that addresses the very real possibility that we are actually missing out on potentially very promising candidates that play something else then STW2. People who are unlikely to be casual gamers but truly hooked on TW somehow. The people we actually want here as they are clearly more likely to stick around – if we provide them a reason(s) to do so. This regardless the game, it might be ETW or whatever. The circumstance is the same regardless. We have no true plan how to somehow convince them to actually sign up – but more importantly – to stick around if they do sign up. So, in effect the people that we should be waving that carrot in-front of is basically ignored. That’s a fifth bit.

The point should be clear enough at this stage...


Conclusions...

This strategy and the high hopes on it are bad news once we also consider these five aspects. Looking at things in this way, does raise a lot of warranted questions about it and its continued practice. This strategy is then essentially a “wild-card” and it has so far failed to properly deliver that “magic” influx of new blood that all TW-communities of this site need to get vital again. Just leaving all the other games/communities to tend for themselves in favor of STW2 and hope for the best is not a healthy nor viable strategy – long term. This has been conducted for over a year now – ever since STW2 was released…

To me it is obvious; this is not good for the site or for any of its several communities – save STW2 perhaps (short term) – this utterly regardless how “normal” things may seem or might be. It has failed to produce any promising results and this site gets weaker because of it. Act accordingly. Devise another and new strategy, a better one, more diverse, more reliable, more efficient, more distinctive and above all more successful one. At least try to set up a contingency-plan to patch up and cover the worst flaws of this current strategy somehow. That ultimately means that the solid fixation on STW2 will have to give way to something else. We can not solely rely on selling “carrots” in this context, we need “apples”, “oranges” and what have you – stuff that is rare and not available elsewhere. Stuff that makes this place distinctive, attractive and stand out. To increase our chances at this we should also be aiming for more people then just the casual gamers of STW2. We must plan for and target other and more promising “customers” of TW.

The work of establishing information for STW2 can and indeed should continue (I am all for that) - but - the hard focus and all the high hopes on that should cease (because that I do question, due to outlined reasons above). Re-examine your strategy, make a new and better one, a less destructive one, a more realistic and reliable one. That is basically what I am trying to convey here.

...

I understand your point of keeping the fire burning in dying fora, but there's only so much staff can do. We don't have an infinite amount of logs to throw on the fire; if most of the time, it are our logs that are needed to throw on the fire and all too seldom somebody else throws his own log, it won't work, imo.

Alright, I believe you. Now, do you have a better suggestion? Because doing nothing at all is hardly a strategy, now is it? We have too at least try to do something... I don’t have any statistics on each section but it would be very interesting to see such data – instead of just doing some wild guesses on which TW-section "seems" to receive the most/least traffic and visits, most/least activity etc. etc. After that, we would have some solid basis on which sections actually are worse off then others – and get clear understanding of what we are really dealing with and where... Just leave it be in favor the latest game, is no plan and it will obviously not magically fix it self somehow.

Ok, I'll do more comments later...

- A

[Axalon]

Hello Phill,

Correct me if I am wrong, but this can be reduced to a problem of manpower, right? Provided that content-branch get enough manpower, are you and I still going to have difference in opinions here? Roughly speaking?

If so, let me know... Now, if everything boils down to manpower. Maybe your branch should re-examine the requirements for becoming part of that staff? Making it a little easier to qualify or something? That might open up a few more possibilities for you guys. I don't have the details, you do, so I can't give any direct suggestions and ideas even if I wanted too. Obviously, it has to be a priority 1 for you guys to get that manpower...

If you have contributed something worthwhile or have seen such a contribution by another member, just PM me or Graphic or Voigtkampf. We'll gladly put it in the spotlight.

You bet. I'll do it until the manpower-issue is resolved (obviously I can do it afterwards as well, but then I will not do so actively) - then your people can take over and basically do it. I have already established contact with the "bladerunner" (VK), if that fails I'll go to the "peasantry" (you). Anyways, I already have my duties as a local moderator and so this will still be your operation and responsibility, but I'll help in the way I can...

- A

[Axalon]

Hello Maltz, some comments for you (as to post:158)...

I am actually in full support of... "self support".

Great, lets try to make more people join that movement/notion then...

... and not wait for the moderators to be englightened. Different moderators have different areas of interests, and it is very easy for a moderator to completely ignore an unfamiliar area simply because they cannot easily tell exceptional from average.

If that really is the case, I would think it is warranted to raise the question if that moderator is actually suitable for the job and especially the area assigned to him/her. I would argue that another additional moderator or assisstant moderator would be preferable (if possible) as to cover the area in question (whatever it might be) as thoroughly as possible - as I think that would be desirable somehow. At least the flaw would be better covered and countered that way.

because they [the moderators] cannot easily tell exceptional from average.

If they lack the skills required, they should contact and consult an expert in the field as to treat whatever X as seriously and fairly as possible. I think anybody who has clearly worked hard deserves that much at least. Hard work is hard work, and should be treated with enough respect to get that courtesy...

Yet currently the TWC modding community has been significantly developed and I wonder whether it would be meaningful to set up just a mirror site in ORG. Here is a question for modding experts - is the TWC lacking in a particular modding area that we can fill? Or It might be hard to maintain a sustainable modding community in the ORG otherwise.

If the ORG does not seriously try to get modders to operate here - you can kiss this site goodbye straight up. I'm not joking here, that's more or less a fact. Why? Because the original game is static, it can not sustain any community anywhere long term, that is the "why" for you right there... The ORG will never be something more then an ever shrinking shadow of past glory days until it is finally abandoned utterly. This is hardly up for debate, as there is no true alternative here, the question is how shall we get the modders to operate here, and in what numbers, and in what games because they must operate here in order for this site to survive at all. Having said that...

The TWC did not get there in one day - they worked for it, hard and seriously. They invested in their modders, they more or less focused on their modders. More so then this site probably ever have. And another thing, they did not consider what the ORG was up to either as they did it - they did their own thing totally regardless. That is exactly what the ORG need to do as well. It is a non-factor if the TWC has the same thing or not. Why? Because it is utterly ridiculous to even try designing the ORG after what the TWC do have and have not. The ORG is an individual entity, not a copy or a twin. These two sites are not "sister-sites", they are two sites who share the supposed to focus on TW somehow.

The TWC is in large part successful because it has fully realized the importance of modders and mods and they have acted accordingly and this seriously while the ORG basically and stubbornly held on to its focus on the static original games and have suffered because of it. The TWC don't give rats ass if you are "mature and superior" as long as you follow the their TOS, they have realized in contrast to many people here that they can not afford such blatant chauvinism and have acted accordingly. Obviously, I simply here, but there is probably plenty of truth in it still.

Overall, my impression is that the TWC deal with mods better and more seriously then the ORG does (considering current realities, it is pretty much a matter of fact). The TWC have also such things much more standardized, more formalized and a more solid infrastructure for all that in place. It has more manpower to actively deal with, and maintain, all that somehow. Now, does that still mean that the ORG can not have the same thing or be even better somehow at some point? Of course not! It is a matter of planning, strategy, determination, actual practices and manpower. If we lack some of that we must compensate somehow, do the things we can do and do them well - ever trying to be better then the competition. Otherwise it is essentially "game over".

That is how we should approach these things, or so I believe.

- A

[Andres]

Alright, I believe you. Now, do you have a better suggestion? Because doing nothing at all is hardly a strategy, now is it? We have too at least try to do something... I don’t have any statistics on each section but it would be very interesting to see such data – instead of just doing some wild guesses on which TW-section "seems" to receive the most/least traffic and visits, most/least activity etc. etc. After that, we would have some solid basis on which sections actually are worse off then others – and get clear understanding of what we are really dealing with and where... Just leave it be in favor the latest game, is no plan and it will obviously not magically fix it self somehow.

Ok, I'll do more comments later...

- A

I believe we tried to get such data in the past, but it was not possible to have them generated by the forum software we use, I think.

@TinCow or @Husar can correct me if I'm wrong or if there has something changed since the last attempt to get those data.

I see your point of too much focus on the new game. It's good food for thought. Thanks for the excellent feedback

[Maltz]

Axalon: As has been pointed out, forum moderators are hard to find and they tend to burn out quickly. People such as myself tend to go to the next game, once they think they have finished all that's interesting in this game. But forum moderators have to stay around and fulfill their duties. In my opinion, they should be paid to do these as it could be as repetitive, boring, frustrating, demoralizing, and mind-numbing as most day-time jobs.

If I find a certain forum moderator is mean, ignorant, or incompetent, I simply migrate to another forum of a similar subject. If I really love a forum think it deserves a better moderator, I apply to become one for them and hopefully make a difference. Maybe you can discuss with the ORG staff and revolutionize how the ORG handles the modding section? I am more of a no-mod hardcore single-player strategy person, so I will contribute on my area, too, by keep posting some (hopefully) good stuff.

I think many of us who participate in this thread wants to see the ORG improve. I am optimistic enough that something good is going to happen down the road.

[Vladimir]

Dont be an arse! And i know this will give me my first ever warning point during my time here.

Then you're doing it wrong!

Sorry, late.

[TinCow]

If the ORG does not seriously try to get modders to operate here - you can kiss this site goodbye straight up. I'm not joking here, that's more or less a fact. Why? Because the original game is static, it can not sustain any community anywhere long term, that is the "why" for you right there... The ORG will never be something more then an ever shrinking shadow of past glory days until it is finally abandoned utterly. This is hardly up for debate, as there is no true alternative here, the question is how shall we get the modders to operate here, and in what numbers, and in what games because they must operate here in order for this site to survive at all. Having said that...

The staff are broadly in agreement with you about this, but we're unsure of exactly what we can do to reverse the situation. The organization of the modding sections of the forum is one of the major topics we are discussing now as part of the proposed structural reorganization, but that alone won't do anything. We are, quite frankly, massively blind on the modding sector because we have no one on-staff who is heavily involved in that community. We've tried to rectify this, but have so far been unsuccessful. This has seriously hampered the various efforts we have made over the past year to make the Org a more mod-friendly place. Several months ago, I personally tried to assemble a modding toolkit; essentially, a pack of utilities and files that would be useful to modders for each of the various TW games. The idea was that anyone could download a single compressed file and get all of the important modding tools without having to search for them. The problem I ran into is that I don't know anything about modding. I pulled out every single modding file hosted on the Org, and realized that I have no idea what 90% of them do, let alone whether they are the best tool for that job, or even the most up to date. The fact is, we need help from the modders themselves to do a lot of the more intricate things that would make the Org more modding friendly. We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If I remember correctly back ages ago there was some deal about the twc hosting illegal content and leaked screenshots and stuff like that, which the org deleted when anyone posted them. Since then the sites have pulled really far away in terms of membership numbers. I don't think there's really a complex question, most people only need one website to visit and if they hit one earlier they go to that one and then there's a snowball effect.

[Maltz]

Thanks for the information. Since the initial surge of fans are the largest flock, if we lose them, we will naturally lose lots of posts. So maybe in the next TW release we can pull off something to grab people's attention - what can we do legally to attract fans eagerly waiting for a new game's release? History? Films? Exclusive Interviews? Personally I am not a new-release gamer and I rarely play a game within its first 1/2 year of release. So I have very little idea.

By the way, recently I posted some new STW2 single-player guides and started a new campaign story. What does the staff think about this direction? I can still see people viewing the respective forums, but apparently people do not bother to reply. I wonder what keeps people from posting. In other sites I at least get "thank you" notes and some kind of response from the respective admin for a major body of work. What's keeping people and staff away from saying thank you or even use the Thanks icon? Is that because my work is not worth it? I am shamelessly asking the staff to at least make up some response even if you do not read them - not just for my works but also for others', because it really sets an example for regular users to follow.

[Gregoshi]

In other sites I at least get "thank you" notes and some kind of response from the respective admin for a major body of work. What's keeping people and staff away from saying thank you or even use the Thanks icon?

I've no good excuse and it is thoughtless of me to not have thanked you for your outstanding contributions in the TWS2/FotS forums. Sorry for not acknowledging all your hard work Maltz.

[Maltz]

Hi Gregoshi, I understand that staffs are all busy right now with restructuring and other tasks, so I am definitely not asking for an apology. Just suggesting that a small reply like "thank you for the contribution" in a guide thread which has received no response so far would mean a lot to the original poster and could encourage further responses.

[Peasant Phill]

...
Correct me if I am wrong, but this can be reduced to a problem of manpower, right? Provided that content-branch get enough manpower, are you and I still going to have difference in opinions here? Roughly speaking?
...

- A

@Axalon

I've been thinking this over for a few days. Adding manpower is the quick and easy(?) way to root out and spotlight as much content as possible. I'm just not convinced this is the right way.
Simply adding more staff takes away the spontanity of the community (say what you will but representing something makes you think twice before saying/posting something). Staff shouldn't be what keeps this forum going, the community is. The staff should be here to support the community. Which has been done to a degree, adding the ability to post on the front page for example.
I come to the same coclusion as before. We should be going for emancipation of the Org community rather than what with some flair for the dramatic can be seen as a benevolent despotism.

...Just suggesting that a small reply like "thank you for the contribution" in a guide thread which has received no response so far would mean a lot to the original poster and could encourage further responses.

You are right and we've been thinking of a way to encourage showing appreciation for contributions. That was the reason for adding the 'Thanks'-button. I'm not quite sure how to encourage members to show more appreciation towards for content other than leading by example.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?

When Rome was released mate the vast majority of modders on the forums lost interest (save a few individuals and the hard working people on EB) and the modding community never really recovered in my honest opinion. Pre-Rome this site was filled to the brim with mods, tools, etc and old heads teaching the others. Wellington, King John and Barocca helped new would be modders but most of us could not be bothered anymore and simply didn't care for the Rome engine at all.

There was a surge of interest though when Medieval II was released and the subsequent Kingdoms expansion with the modding community again rising quite nicely but then began to falter again once Empire came out, well for me anyway. The thing we must remember is that back in the day the vast majority of modders worked as individuals with mods taking a hell of a long time to be released. I can't begin to describe how mind numbing and time consuming it is and as you get older with work and family commitments you just don't have time anymore you know? Since the release of Rome; teams of modders worked together in unison. The old guard on here definitely would help each other out with information and problems but we rarely, if ever worked on a project together. That was just the way we worked.

[daigaku]

Hi to all,

just a few remarks from a very new member

As an intro: I never was and never will be interested in anything newer than MTW:VI - not my glass of wine....

@frogbeastegg: searching the net for some new info about an ages old game (MTW:VI) I had played for ten years, your guide made me join this community. I want to thank you here for that (made me playing the Turks for the first time! ;-))).
Even long forgotten work CAN bring people here.....

After that, I searched around a bit and fell over this great modding section for M:TW. Tried one, tried another - and will stay glued to this game for sure another ten, fifteen years ;-)
Found @Axalon as a so very helpful modder of this old gem, I first didn´t even realize he STILL worked on it - till 1003 was out. You made/make me stay here.
Even old games bring new activities....

Desperate about hardware issues, posted in the Apothecary - took some time, but got willing-to-help answers and backquestions about the problem I had. @Dellathane a thanks for that.
Even if it takes some time, problems get solved here.

Meanwhile, jumping around a bit, I´m having my first or second fun-thread going (okay, the first went from topical to fun and ended..), posting about Sundowner Special Camel Steaks, Single Malt Whisky and the (im)possibilities of soberness ;-))
Even side interests are covered here.

So, as a complete new member, having no idea about how this Org thing was before 2, 5 or 10 years, what would I like to change?!?
.....the search function, maybe, it NEVER brought the results/informations I was looking for (full text search aso).
Besides that? Nothing. It´s good as it is, it works as it is, and, old fart that I am, I´d never exchange it for TWC or anything else.

The only thing I regret: Having joined in so late.

THANKS for the work amassed here, for the infos, the fun and the company,

greetings daigaku

[Jack50]

@daigaku Hear! Hear! old man I too am new to the forums and it was the articles that I read that brought me over from TWC (nik is Eastern.Europe there). I feel more comfortable talking with a few die hards that swimming up hill in the this game sucks or how do you play the game threads. Even will be posting an AAR soon. I too like daigaku will not play with firearms not my cup of tea. But I will probably this year get Rome and its expansions so I can play that also.

Is there a desire to change the BB graphics to something TW instead of padagodas and cherry blossoms? Now maybe it's always been this way but I would like to have a few different Background choices. Maybe we can and I'm not aware of it. I really hate that TWC doesn't have the size for M:TW that we do here. Their M2:TW site is bigger but again that is because of the modders. I think we could get modders over here if we could grab some that would like to stick their hands into the muck and see what prizes are there

My only other suggestion right now is that the ORG could become a hub for all with a specific TW theme to it. I try to give a coherent reply. I like Mount and Blade, how can I participate in the ORG on that game? I understand we have a section for that but not for talk about the game. I'm not saying make 40,000 little sections with every game out or due out. But how can we get someone who likes that game into seeing the fun the TW series are?

[TinCow]

Thanks for the compliments, daigaku and Jack50. It's very nice to have some new faces giving us a pat on the back every once in a while. It really does mean a lot.

Is there a desire to change the BB graphics to something TW instead of padagodas and cherry blossoms? Now maybe it's always been this way but I would like to have a few different Background choices. Maybe we can and I'm not aware of it. I really hate that TWC doesn't have the size for M:TW that we do here. Their M2:TW site is bigger but again that is because of the modders. I think we could get modders over here if we could grab some that would like to stick their hands into the muck and see what prizes are there

We have a number of forum skins; you can pick between them with the dropdown menu at the very bottom left of the screen. The default (pagodas and cherry blossoms) is the newest theme, called TWS2. It is Japanese themed because the latest TW game is itself Japanese. We have other skins that were designed with themes for the other games, though most of them are much older than TWS2, so they may not look quite as polished as TWS2 does. Morbid is not TW themed, and was designed primarily for easy of readability, with the graphical slant towards our mafia-obsessed gameroom patrons. Lightweight is for smartphones and other small-screen devices.

We're working on a new frontpage right now, with the aim to make it far more attractive. If that goes well, we may try and bash out a polished general TW-themed skin as well, as another modern alternative to the game-specific ones.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

We're working on a new frontpage right now, with the aim to make it far more attractive. If that goes well, we may try and bash out a polished general TW-themed skin as well, as another modern alternative to the game-specific ones.

I like this new frontpage. You are doing a good job!

[TinCow]

I like this new frontpage. You are doing a good job!

What you see are just side-effects of what we're working on. We're completely re-skining the front page in an effort to make it more readable and modern. There will be an announcement once its finally done and visible to everyone. I'm glad you like the bits that have bled over to the existing skins though.

[Axalon]

We are, quite frankly, massively blind on the modding sector because we have no one on-staff who is heavily involved in that community.

I think it is important that you/staff can admit that, because then you are at least aware of it and can start to act on it (and seek help as well). Overall, it is not a good circumstance but I’m guessing you already knew that. That said, and as I essentially already said in a previous post, "if they don’t have the necessary skills and experiences on subject X – then they should contact and consult an expert on the matter" as to treat it as fairly and seriously as possible. In this case I would say experts, as in several persons that have a clue what the hell they are actually talking about.

My suggestion to you is thus; try to create and set up an “advisory board” of modders from different games and let them work out and outline possible solutions and plans that they think would be advantageous/beneficial as to turn the tide (or at least towards that end). I would think that 5 people would be advisable. 1 for MTW1, 1 for RTW, 1 for MTW2, 1 for ETW/NTW and 1 for STW2 (the first 3 games are at least possible to mod to a serious degree - I am unsure of the warscape engine, but as I understand it, it is limited and problematic - and have not as extensive mods for it as available for MTW1/RTW/MTW2. I don't know if it is as problematic as STW1. Somebody that works with the warscape-engine can tell for sure. My limited impression is that it has more the character of tweaking rather then true and proper modding - but I could be wrong about that). That way you will have a broad and solid foundation and virtually no game/engine are left behind in the process. As I understand it there are similarities in RTW/MTW2 and ETW/NTW/STW2 while MTW1 is clearly very different from the rest. Anyways, that is my suggestion. Invite selected people to form this board. Needless to say, this has to be people who know what serious modding means and has at least one large mod under their belt to show for (say 2000 files strong or so) so they have solid experience and a proper grasp of the public aspects related to modding as well.

We've tried to rectify this, but have so far been unsuccessful. This has seriously hampered the various efforts we have made over the past year to make the Org a more mod-friendly place. Several months ago, I personally tried to assemble a modding toolkit; essentially, a pack of utilities and files that would be useful to modders for each of the various TW games. The idea was that anyone could download a single compressed file and get all of the important modding tools without having to search for them. The problem I ran into is that I don't know anything about modding. I pulled out every single modding file hosted on the Org, and realized that I have no idea what 90% of them do, let alone whether they are the best tool for that job, or even the most up to date. The fact is, we need help from the modders themselves to do a lot of the more intricate things that would make the Org more modding friendly.

The idea is fine, but I can see your problem. Alright, I can offer my services on behalf of MTW1 and the related tools – as I am the most experienced modder still active for MTW1 anyways (both here and the TWC as well). I can help you sort that out or discuss possible additional alternatives to it because I don’t think there will be 1 perfect solution as there will always be some tools that do not make it. In general I would thus suggest that you/staff/whoever standardize the whole damn thing and have continuity on all games in the treatment of tools, and related guides and treat them as per game and in separate dedicated sub-forums each with all such relevant stuff bunched together and clearly catalogued there. I would probably throw in all related guides as well just to keep everything in one place (for the sake of clarity) and then make sure that the access to that place was thoroughly ensured and visible by multiple fixed links to it in various places. Sort it as per game, a vault if you will. We can then create a “recommended tool-box” as per game while all the other stuff that did not make it to that box is still easily accessible all the same in this place. Do this make any sense to you? Anyways, just thinking out loud and on the fly here…

We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?

As I said, I suggest the staff try to set up a “modder-advisory board” of sorts to work out a plan and the details for it. Having non-modders doing it will obviously not be as effective. It’s like having non-pilots cook up solutions for airplanes basically – it's just not optimal…


Anyways, I'll try to do some comments on other posts here later...

- A

[TinCow]

My suggestion to you is thus; try to create and set up an “advisory board” of modders from different games and let them work out and outline possible solutions and plans that they think would be advantageous/beneficial as to turn the tide (or at least towards that end). I would think that 5 people would be advisable. 1 for MTW1, 1 for RTW, 1 for MTW2, 1 for ETW/NTW and 1 for STW2 (the first 3 games are at least possible to mod to a serious degree - I am unsure of the warscape engine, but as I understand it, it is limited and problematic - and have not as extensive mods for it as available for MTW1/RTW/MTW2. I don't know if it is as problematic as STW1. Somebody that works with the warscape-engine can tell for sure. My limited impression is that it has more the character of tweaking rather then true and proper modding - but I could be wrong about that). That way you will have a broad and solid foundation and virtually no game/engine are left behind in the process. As I understand it there are similarities in RTW/MTW2 and ETW/NTW/STW2 while MTW1 is clearly very different from the rest. Anyways, that is my suggestion. Invite selected people to form this board. Needless to say, this has to be people who know what serious modding means and has at least one large mod under their belt to show for (say 2000 files strong or so) so they have solid experience and a proper grasp of the public aspects related to modding as well.

I would be as giddy as a school girl if this happened. The main problem is finding people to do this. We are very grateful that you would offer to help, and that alone is a great deal more than we've had in a long time. If you know of anyone who would fit the bill for the other games, please let us know who they are, or point them to this thread.

In general I would thus suggest that you/staff/whoever standardize the whole damn thing and have continuity on all games in the treatment of tools, and related guides and treat them as per game and in separate dedicated sub-forums each with all such relevant stuff bunched together and clearly catalogued there. I would probably throw in all related guides as well just to keep everything in one place (for the sake of clarity) and then make sure that the access to that place was thoroughly ensured and visible by multiple fixed links to it in various places. Sort it as per game, a vault if you will. We can then create a “recommended tool-box” as per game while all the other stuff that did not make it to that box is still easily accessible all the same in this place. Do this make any sense to you? Anyways, just thinking out loud and on the fly here…

As a modder, you opinion on the organization of the modding sections is very valuable. Would you prefer to have the modding sections as subsections of each game, as they are now, or would you prefer to have modding broken out into its own main index category, with fora for each game under that? Also, do you think there would be any value in having a generalized Modding forum that is not game-specific? There has been some thinking amongst the staff that perhaps a non-game-specific modding forum would be useful, as something of a boiler-room for modders across all TW games to post in and share ideas or suggestions. However, as we do not have modders on-staff, we have no objective input as to whether that is a good idea, or just a waste of space. What is your ideal organizational structure for modding fora?

[Axalon]

The main problem is finding people to do this. We are very grateful that you would offer to help, and that alone is a great deal more than we've had in a long time. If you know of anyone who would fit the bill for the other games, please let us know who they are, or point them to this thread.

I suppose... In general, I would think that the criterions for such people would be at least to have finished and released 1 large mod (a minimum of 1000+ files then, 2000+ files is better) and that this mod in some form have been released for at least 2 years somehow (whenever this is applicable). You want people who do have a clue about these things and have some solid public experiences as well under their belt. That is at least what I would be looking for if I were in your shoes.

Most of the people that can hope to fit that bill are usually active somehow over at the TWC - some might have accounts here at the ORG as well. You could check your hosted mods for possible candidates - I doubt everyone will be interested, but I think at least some will be willing to do this if asked and treated respectfully. I must admit that my knowledge of stuff for ETW and beyond is extremely limited so I can't help you there even if I wanted too. There are however plenty of promising candidates for both RTW and MTW2 at least. I think the best way to do this is to send an direct (time-limited) invitation to all suitable candidates for the various games. If I have any more ideas and suggestions for you, I'll post it up later...

Would you prefer to have the modding sections as subsections of each game, as they are now, or would you prefer to have modding broken out into its own main index category, with fora for each game under that?

Definitely modding sections as subsections of each game, as they are now - because I think the other alternative would be a disaster.... I have hard time seeing how other modders could disagree with that assessment - after all every mod is directly linked some game-engine(s). If these are the only options here. Not that I have any other ideas or suggestions as I write this.

Also, do you think there would be any value in having a generalized Modding forum that is not game-specific? There has been some thinking amongst the staff that perhaps a non-game-specific modding forum would be useful, as something of a boiler-room for modders across all TW games to post in and share ideas or suggestions. However, as we do not have modders on-staff, we have no objective input as to whether that is a good idea, or just a waste of space.

Ummm... This is not necessarily a bad idea, there are some aspects of modding that are rather universal and where modders can meet across the engine-borders of their games. A "modders-plaza" might be an interesting idea to try out - provided that the modding-sections as subsections of each game are already secured. A place where modders can discuss universal problems with modding and get to better know their counterparts of other engines and maybe socialize somewhat with other modders due to such a space - just as modders in general. As it is, the engine-borders are pretty strong and I fail to see why that has to be that way - as I said there are some things about modding that is more or less universal and it would be wonderful to have a dedicated place where all modders - utterly regardless of engine(s) - can go for such discussions and perhaps ask for input or advice in such matters by other and possibly more experienced modders. The whole public aspect/scene of modding is hardly engine-specific but tends to be rather universal. The idea to also cater to modders as a specific category of "customers" (and not just gamers) is very good on general terms.

What is your ideal organizational structure for modding fora?

It is a good question, I'll have to get back to you on that.

- A

[Axalon]

Alright Phill, I'm going to initially refer to some stuff Maltz wrote as he is practically making some of my points for me...

... I understand that staffs are all busy right now with restructuring and other tasks, so I am definitely not asking for an apology. Just suggesting that a small reply like "thank you for the contribution" in a guide thread which has received no response so far would mean a lot to the original poster and could encourage further responses.

And...

... recently I posted some new STW2 single-player guides and started a new campaign story. What does the staff think about this direction? I can still see people viewing the respective forums, but apparently people do not bother to reply. I wonder what keeps people from posting. In other sites I at least get "thank you" notes and some kind of response from the respective admin for a major body of work. What's keeping people and staff away from saying thank you or even use the Thanks icon? Is that because my work is not worth it? I am shamelessly asking the staff to at least make up some response even if you do not read them - not just for my works but also for others', because it really sets an example for regular users to follow.

Now... Let's set that in relation to....

... Adding manpower is the quick and easy(?) way to root out and spotlight as much content as possible. I'm just not convinced this is the right way.
Simply adding more staff takes away the spontanity of the community (say what you will but representing something makes you think twice before saying/posting something). Staff shouldn't be what keeps this forum going, the community is. The staff should be here to support the community.

I’ll be plain. The job of the members here is to generate and contribute content somehow on this site, yours – the content branch - is to see to it that this content gets recognized and receives proper coverage/promotion at various levels so more people get to know about it. That is what you and your branch are supposed to do. That is what this site needs. That is what actually matters here, or so I believe.

Content is material of any kind that can be used seriously by any third party somehow. That is content. That is the stuff that has some sort of value attached to it somehow. Chatter and jokes are not content because it can not be seriously used by any third party. This site is supposed to have a TW-focus. Thus TW-related content take priority. That is what needs promotion, coverage and recognition. That is what you should be focusing on. To do this task properly and seriously, you need manpower. Get that manpower. Once you have that manpower, you assign at least 1 content-branch operative to each and every TW-section – as to ensure that each section is properly covered no matter what, and this constantly and visibly. No TW-section takes priority over another, because this site can not afford such luxuries in order to be competitive (I have already explained why in previous posts).

...

The reality I see is that your branch have already had a fair chance of doing things “your way”, people here have had their chance to get spontaneous like crazy and properly recognize and support stuff posted on this site. This for over a year. It has not happened. Neither has the full functionality of your branch. You still don’t have the manpower you need to cover all TW-sections which strikes me as a priority.... Now, explain to me why it is still warranted somehow continue the current doctrine and practices by content branch? Or why we can somehow still afford to sit and wait for some unlikely and unreliable spontaneity?

To me it is obvious. The content branch must start acting like the failsafe it is supposed to be and get real. As in step in and do the job that needs to be done in order for this site to get a chance of a revival somehow. That means that everything that deserves recognition and coverage gets it – this regardless of how apathetic and incapable members here might be. This means that the people that actually do generate interesting and noteworthy content somehow get recognition and appreciation so they have at least some reason to do it all over again – here. Once your branch is fully operational and each and every TW-section is properly covered at all times you can start worrying about all secondary things. That includes stuff like emancipation etc. Creating new trends and traditions on the board that serves and works beneficially for all – instead of the all too usual apathy. To encourage and support members to do this stuff on their own without direct involvement from staff etc. etc. etc. Because I think you are right in that part at least, emancipation is indeed desirable and it is a worthy goal to strive for here. However, we are not there, we are not even close to that, and we don’t have a strong enough community to even hope for any of that – let alone rely on that. Thus your branch must act decisively and lead by example as to show people how it is supposed to be and what people here should do, and where. In the meantime, the machinery of recognizing and promoting content on the boards must still happen anyways and that is the job of content-branch, a failsafe to kick in whenever and wherever the membership fails. This constantly, seriously and visibly on all TW-sections…

...

Lastly, the front page alone is not enough to do the job, or so I believe. I think we need more places, ways and channels to promote and recognize content somehow on this site. I don’t have any exact suggestions but I think that every TW-section should have its own lesser counterpart to that somehow – which deals exclusively with stuff related to that section. As sort of “note-board” to put up “local” section-notes and -news of interest for that community – a place where members can put up their own notes as well. Basically, something other and additional to the existing front-page.

- A