How could a loving god send people to Hell?

[Sarmatian]

How old are you and where are you from Total Relism?

He said he is originally from one of the former Yugoslavian countries. After all we've done to convince the rest of the world we're crazy, there are still ways to further reinforce that opinion.

Ohh, God... Sorry, was that blasphemous?

[Idaho]

Because faith is important to some? Blind dogma never helped anyone, but nobody is so obtuse as to totally deny their metaphysical suspicions. Christianity at its best is a reasoned way of living good, with the hope of a better afterlife. Only the most privileged generations and societies have been care-free enough to not care.

Faith is fine. Just don't quote the Bible at me and expect me not to point out that it's nonsense.

[Idaho]

I would say to all of that, "its not my place to judge or give you guidelines." For me Christianity is a personal choice, not a sales pitch or whatever.

And yet organised Christianity makes pronouncements and judgements all the time. Indeed it flexes it's political muscles and pushes it's judgements on the world. Then christians have the gall to claim that they are some oppressed minority.

[total relism]

That problem is a corollary of the ideas that man is "eternal" and "guilty"
So I leave that imaginary problem to the people that made it up....I just pointed out the problem exists.

I just pointed out it is only problem if you ignore op/bible.

Reading the Old Testament gives you the distinct impression that the supernatural was a lot nearer. When God ruined Job’s life as part of a bet, Job is told by his wife that he should curse God for what has been done to him. Read: not deny his existence, which is what most of us would do but which didnt even enter their minds, but curse him. The moral of the story was that God can do whatever he pleases, and piety and respect to God may or may not be rewarded. If not, then the reasons for why not are none of your business and you should shut up. But I digress.

“Rejecting God” is a loaded term that implies that the person is not an atheist at all, but is perfectly aware that God exists, yet refuses to honor him. Since Hell is traditionally said to be extremely unpleasant it’s really quite ridiculous for someone with knowledge of God to refuse to honor him.

If we postulate that God exists, the reason why people like me go to hell would be that we don’t see any compelling reason to think God exists, him having not appeared physically in the last thousends of years despite supposedly appearing several times to the ancient Israelites. “Free will” my arse. I guess they never heard of the term informed choice in those days.

I agree with first part, not until I would say the last 150 were there very many atheist at all. I see good reason for this as well [future thread]. I disagree fully on job and your intpritation of bible/god and what it says.


Second part I disagree fully as does the bible. In fact op points that out from biblical theology.



are you not the one that posted this before? I offered debate to show this is not true at all and I can prove it. It is your worldview governed by your hearts wants that controls what you believe and how you inteprit evidence.

How old are you and where are you from Total Relism?

pm me

Well this version of god sounds more like a odorous burecratic bully then a loving father.

You have free will but if you don't worship me (according to which religion, sect or denomination? Which iteration or edition) I will send you to hell. I'll send your children, your wife and even on a bet with the highest representative of evil will make your life as intolerable as possible.

I will knock up a young lady and get another man to raise my child. This child will make the ultimate sacrifice for ALL mankinds sins, but just as bullying and burecratic and unethical as me is the priesthood so they will make a bunch of caveats and exceptions for this ultimate all encompassing sacrifice that requires tithes and subjugation through the priest hood. So instead of a direct relationship and forgiveness for everything which one would think would include stupidity, hubris, ignorance and lack of understanding... One has to confess to a priesthood, pay an extortion fee for entry we tithe, pray at the correct pew/church/denomination/sect/religion to the correct entity be it priest/saint/son of god or god direct.

Then another set of caveats allow the priesthood to tell each other of their misdeeds and now not have to render unto Caesar his due. Priesthood is above the law of the land as long as they tell each other they have sinned and they feel weally weally sowwy. Higher ups are allowed to cover up misdeeds from traffic tickets to human trafficking as long as the right lip service or money changes hands.

As a parent and an employee I think god fails as a parent and he fails as the head of the company. I'm not impressed by many or any of his franchise priesthoods. I think I'll take my philosophy and moral guidance from a better source. Maybe one that isn't based on Bronze Age fairies at the bottom of the garden. Till he comes out, apologizes to Jesus for not being a hands on dad and really gets over his jealous anger issues ill chalk up his followers to the same category as bronies.

I disagree based on the bible. God is perfectly holy just and cannot dwell with sin. We are sinners that cant be in his presence. He gives us because he loves us free entry and forgiveness to spend eternity in paradise with him as we were originally created to do. We can chose to accept or deny because our free will. He allows both.

I suggest reading bible before claiming things
false claims

you believe god had sex with marry?
god abandon and had no relationship with jesus
jesus was not divine
assuming some "priesthood" matters at all to bible/god,topic.
thinking mans actions have anything to do with topic/bible/god.
thanks for pointing out problems with catholic doctrine, though I could defend this to you but no need to as i am not catholic and off topic.


You object as sated to a priesthood not god, but falsely apply there deeds to god. I suggest reading Malachi.


Do you have any objection to topic title?.

Faith is fine. Just don't quote the Bible at me and expect me not to point out that it's nonsense.

The same people that claim bible is clearly false and they can prove it, are the same I find in many threads/years of debating atheist, the ones that refuse to debate 1v1. i have asked you 3-4 times since on these forums you never accept. They have been so far indoctrinated that they hear a argument they like and accept its truth without questioning, therefore when challenged by someone with knowledge they cannot respond. They also are completely unaware of the illogical nature of there own beliefs. So I offer you another debate idaho 4th time. Topic what is nonsense bible/or atheism, not on this thread but a 1v1.There you can bring up anything you like [those passages you posted earlier etc].

And yet organised Christianity makes pronouncements and judgements all the time. Indeed it flexes it's political muscles and pushes it's judgements on the world. Then christians have the gall to claim that they are some oppressed minority.

I would love this topic to debate you on as well, who is oppressed atheist or christians? that would be fun topic.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Here is the problem I have with the bible being figurative, if you have already admitted that the majority or the entire thing has been revised/edited multiple times by man, how can you really trust the damn thing in the first place? It is one thing you have faith that there is a God, but with Christianity, you have to have faith that the Bible itself is still or less intact in its ability to uncover God's word. From a practical stand point you might as well become Islamic instead, the ambiguity of the Koran in the Islamic language doesn't seem to compare to the Bible in Christianity and you are worshiping the same God anyway.

[total relism]

Here is the problem I have with the bible being figurative, if you have already admitted that the majority or the entire thing has been revised/edited multiple times by man, how can you really trust the damn thing in the first place? It is one thing you have faith that there is a God, but with Christianity, you have to have faith that the Bible itself is still or less intact in its ability to uncover God's word. From a practical stand point you might as well become Islamic instead, the ambiguity of the Koran in the Islamic language doesn't seem to compare to the Bible in Christianity and you are worshiping the same God anyway.

I never said bible was figurative, neither did I say it has been edited/revised. Were did you get this. I believe the bible is history and we have the very bible originally written down. This is a future topic on translation of the bible i will be doing. Nether do islam/bible worship the same god, no offence but do you read anything before posting?.

islam vs chirtianity
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-Is-Islam-true

[a completely inoffensive name]

no offence but do you read anything before posting?.

Never got into the habit. Just ask Panzer how I was pro-Romney just like him in 2010 and then hated Romney in 2012. I didn't even read my own posts!

[total relism]

Theologically speaking, they are all worshipping the same God. The muslims consider Jesus a prophet, but not the son of God--so that alone creates a huge divergence when you're talking about man's role on earth in the two* teachings.

*Obviously great variations exist within all major faiths too, of course.

Not at all, "god" or Allah of koran is very different than the "god" of bible. Anyone willing to watch debates read my other threads or read koran/bible will soon find this out.

Never got into the habit. Just ask Panzer how I was pro-Romney just like him in 2010 and then hated Romney in 2012. I didn't even read my own posts!

I like you for this post,very honest and funny as h#ll. Thank you.

[Sigurd]

I dont see why its a problem. He does not want any to go to hell.

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).
"He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).

But he predestined those that would live by faith to be saved. Both the ones in havan and hell both chose there own paths, yet god foreknow who would chose each way.

You say that he does not want to condemn anyone to hell.. Predestination according to Calvin contradicts this. If God "knows" your fate before you are born, then he has condemned you before he created you.
In the same breath that you propose a predestined salvation, you also propose a predestined damnation. You say God know who will be saved. Well then, you also say God knows who will not be saved - which is synonym with damned. Even before God sends you to your parents he knows you will end up in hell... why send you at all? It would be better if he only sent those who would obtain salvation. Hence a perfect creation with a successful outcome.

Either you forgo Calvinistic predestination and embrace true free will or stick to a fixed game where God "chooses" which go to hell and which do not.

[total relism]

You say that he does not want to condemn anyone to hell.. Predestination according to Calvin contradicts this. If God "knows" your fate before you are born, then he has condemned you before he created you.
In the same breath that you propose a predestined salvation, you also propose a predestined damnation. You say God know who will be saved. Well then, you also say God knows who will not be saved - which is synonym with damned. Even before God sends you to your parents he knows you will end up in hell... why send you at all? It would be better if he only sent those who would obtain salvation. Hence a perfect creation with a successful outcome.

Either you forgo Calvinistic predestination and embrace true free will or stick to a fixed game where God "chooses" which go to hell and which do not.

first I am not hard line predestination as many think of it I reject that idea as i clearly posted earlier on my first response to you.

Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29


I dont care what calvin says, I care what bible says. I agree that god created a world knowing many would reject him. But he also created as stated with free will. He does not want any to deny him but knows they will. You also assume falsely god can control who will reject him. He cannot, some will some wont.

I think a part of a william lane craig debate might help.
Suppose that God could create a world in which everyone is freely saved, but there is only one problem: all such worlds have only one person in them! Does God's being all-loving compel Him to prefer one of these underpopulated worlds over a world in which multitudes are saved, even though some people freely go to hell? I don't think so. God's being all-loving implies that in any world He creates He desires and strives for the salvation of every person in that world. But people who would freely reject God's every effort to save them shouldn't be allowed to have some sort of veto power over what worlds God is free to create. Why should the joy and the blessedness of those who would freely accept God's salvation be precluded because of those who would stubbornly and freely reject it? It seems to me that God's being all-loving would at the very most require Him to create a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost, a world where as many as possible freely accept salvation and as few as possible freely reject it.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-a...#ixzz2HNKHOzoD



But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future. So for example, god punishes certain people for there crimes, yet he waits untill the crime is committed. He could punish right off [a murderer] and not allow it to happen. Yet he first allows than gives consequence. Same with salvation, he tries to draw near to people who he knows will reject him, jesus dies for all sinners not just those that would receive him etc.


and as I said in OP
It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man.
Man chooses to go there witch has nothing to do with gods love or fairness but mans free will.
What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life without god?

[spankythehippo]

I think it comes down to gods perfect holiness and judgment.

So God's judgment is perfect? Any evidence for this, or is this just one of the many taken-to-be-true-without-question "facts" purported in holy texts? If you do have evidence for God's perfect judgment, I'd love to hear them.

And please don't refer me to the OP. That seems to be the focal point of your argument.

[Sigurd]

first I am not hard line predestination as many think of it I reject that idea as i clearly posted earlier on my first response to you.

Predestination/free will

Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29

I read the above and first you say they are both true... I think that they are mutually exclusive. You need to choose either.
The second highlight favours complete free will... nothing is set in stone, no predestination is committed. Which is more sound.

I dont care what calvin says, I care what bible says. I agree that god created a world knowing many would reject him. But he also created as stated with free will. He does not want any to deny him but knows they will. You also assume falsely god can control who will reject him. He cannot, some will some wont.

Let's agree that predestination IS the doctrine proposed by Calvinism and nothing else... you should move away from the word and use something else if you want to incorporate free will and the foreknowledge of God.

But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future. So for example, god punishes certain people for there crimes, yet he waits untill the crime is committed. He could punish right off [a murderer] and not allow it to happen. Yet he first allows than gives consequence. Same with salvation, he tries to draw near to people who he knows will reject him, jesus dies for all sinners not just those that would receive him etc.

and as I said in OP
It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man.
Man chooses to go there witch has nothing to do with gods love or fairness but mans free will.
What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life without god?

This is more in line with free will... Man is free to choose evil and God will not intervene in those choices... but will hand out the consequences, either temporal (Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife) and/or eternal (damnation). Man's destiny is not set in stone and he/she will be able to choose salvation in this lifetime by repentance.

I gave you a handle in my second post --- I would like to hear your opinion of it.
You could finish this sentence: Opposition in all things exists because ...

[Idaho]

TR - You keep talking about a 1v1 debate being some ultimate contest. I said before that I was happy to debate with you but that we need some arbiter and rules about not allowing cut and paste oddessys.

Also we need to recognise that we won't change anyone's mind.

[total relism]

So God's judgment is perfect? Any evidence for this, or is this just one of the many taken-to-be-true-without-question "facts" purported in holy texts? If you do have evidence for God's perfect judgment, I'd love to hear them.

And please don't refer me to the OP. That seems to be the focal point of your argument.

Theologically speaking, gods perfect justice as in he cant allow sin to go unpunished. The evidence is based on the bible and what it says about sin etc That is the evidence for the character of god when we discuss the bible. I would think that would be rather clear on this thread my bad.

I read the above and first you say they are both true... I think that they are mutually exclusive. You need to choose either.
The second highlight favours complete free will... nothing is set in stone, no predestination is committed. Which is more sound.


Let's agree that predestination IS the doctrine proposed by Calvinism and nothing else... you should move away from the word and use something else if you want to incorporate free will and the foreknowledge of God.



This is more in line with free will... Man is free to choose evil and God will not intervene in those choices... but will hand out the consequences, either temporal (Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife) and/or eternal (damnation). Man's destiny is not set in stone and he/she will be able to choose salvation in this lifetime by repentance.

I gave you a handle in my second post --- I would like to hear your opinion of it.
You could finish this sentence: Opposition in all things exists because ...

They are both true with a lower case letter as they say. I exspalined how they are both true many times, let me try again. I explained how they both are not exclusive.


Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29


The bolded part refers to what many think of as predestination, with a capital letter.As in god chose some people randomly and predestined them to be saved regardless of there will etc.




I agree I think we have mix up of meanings. By free will i mean people have 100% choice in there salvation.



I have affirmed free will since the beginning.


I dont know how you feel I have not responded, know that you know I have affirmed free will from beginning.

TR - You keep talking about a 1v1 debate being some ultimate contest. I said before that I was happy to debate with you but that we need some arbiter and rules about not allowing cut and paste oddessys.

Also we need to recognise that we won't change anyone's mind.

proving one of the topic i asked to debate you on that evidence does not matter but your worldview. I am 100% ok with rules for a 1v1 debate.

[Sigurd]

I dont know how you feel I have not responded, know that you know I have affirmed free will from beginning.

It is the mixing of predestination and free will that I make a complaint towards. Predestination with or without the capital letter has a very specific meaning and contradicts free will.
That's all.
You should use preordained as a synonym for your version of free will.

Now to my question of why does God create/allow evil? Why does he need evil in his creation?
It is missing in your discussion.

[Idaho]

Theologically speaking, gods perfect justice as in he cant allow sin to go unpunished. The evidence is based on the bible and what it says about sin etc That is the evidence for the character of god when we discuss the bible. I would think that would be rather clear on this thread my bad.




They are both true with a lower case letter as they say. I exspalined how they are both true many times, let me try again. I explained how they both are not exclusive.


Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29


The bolded part refers to what many think of as predestination, with a capital letter.As in god chose some people randomly and predestined them to be saved regardless of there will etc.




I agree I think we have mix up of meanings. By free will i mean people have 100% choice in there salvation.



I have affirmed free will since the beginning.


I dont know how you feel I have not responded, know that you know I have affirmed free will from beginning.




proving one of the topic i asked to debate you on that evidence does not matter but your worldview. I am 100% ok with rules for a 1v1 debate.

Ok. Find an arbiter, a location and a panel of jurors who we can do a before and after poll with.

[total relism]

It is the mixing of predestination and free will that I make a complaint towards. Predestination with or without the capital letter has a very specific meaning and contradicts free will.
That's all.
You should use preordained as a synonym for your version of free will.

Now to my question of why does God create/allow evil? Why does he need evil in his creation?
It is missing in your discussion.

First thanks for the good discussions.

I disagree that they contradict, only when they are thought of as they normally are. I think the bible says diffident on both subjects. I will try to exspalin better what i mean.

free will- The bible teaches 100% that people have free will. This does not in anyway contradict,that god predestined those that would live by faith, to be saved.

Ok. Find an arbiter, a location and a panel of jurors who we can do a before and after poll with.

I will take that as back down.

[Sigurd]

I don't think you will find the word predestined or predestination in the Bible. Predestination as per definition belongs to the Calvinistic doctrine on this subject.

Will you deal with my question as posted previously?

[total relism]

I don't think you will find the word predestined or predestination in the Bible. Predestination as per definition belongs to the Calvinistic doctrine on this subject.

Will you deal with my question as posted previously?

could you please tell me what it is? I dont know what your referring to, I thought I had responded to all. I think it comes down to how to understand what is meant by predestination vs free will, so I will refer you to post 54 that seems as easily said as possible on why they dont contradict.

[Sigurd]

could you please tell me what it is? I dont know what your referring to, I thought I had responded to all. I think it comes down to how to understand what is meant by predestination vs free will, so I will refer you to post 54 that seems as easily said as possible on why they dont contradict.

let me quote myself:

Now to my question of why does God create/allow evil? Why does he need evil in his creation?
It is missing in your discussion.

[total relism]

let me quote myself:

Oh sorry thought i did respond. This is my next topic, or slavery in bible. I dont see how this would have to do with this thread at all. but this is great question and i look forward to it and hope you will be there. I will 80% likely do it before the slavery thread. If you ask nicely I will promise you I will do it next [I like yah].

[Idaho]

I will take that as back down.

It's not meant to be. Did anyone else read it as a back down?

[Sarmatian]

Ok. Find an arbiter, a location and a panel of jurors who we can do a before and after poll with.

I will take that as back down.

No, no, no and no.

I'll be an arbiter and/or a juror. I'm pretty sure you'll find some equally bored orgahs to fill the rest of the juror positions. You just need to agree to a concrete subject and we're off.

Although, later on I'll want to argue that John Wayne's movies are the best western movies and I hope you'll return the favour.

[HoreTore]

The Trinity-series is by far the best westerns ever made.

Please stop spewing your blasphemous filth, Sarmatian, you're hurting my religious feelings.

[Idaho]

No, no, no and no.

I'll be an arbiter and/or a juror. I'm pretty sure you'll find some equally bored orgahs to fill the rest of the juror positions. You just need to agree to a concrete subject and we're off.

Although, later on I'll want to argue that John Wayne's movies are the best western movies and I hope you'll return the favour.

Clint Eastwood > John Wayne

[total relism]

It's not meant to be. Did anyone else read it as a back down?

No, no, no and no.

I'll be an arbiter and/or a juror. I'm pretty sure you'll find some equally bored orgahs to fill the rest of the juror positions. You just need to agree to a concrete subject and we're off.

Although, later on I'll want to argue that John Wayne's movies are the best western movies and I hope you'll return the favour.

Ok i am game, but find a place were that is Incorporated? that will be hard, idaho lets just debate. You make it to complicated.

[Idaho]

What motion are you proposing?

[Papewaio]

BTW which bible TR are you referring to and which language and edition?

[spankythehippo]

Theologically speaking, gods perfect justice as in he cant allow sin to go unpunished. The evidence is based on the bible and what it says about sin etc That is the evidence for the character of god when we discuss the bible. I would think that would be rather clear on this thread my bad.

The evidence is in the Bible? Has anyone confirmed this with first-hand experience? Without confirmation, or at least a valid theory, it becomes difficult to accept as truth.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The evidence is in the Bible? Has anyone confirmed this with first-hand experience?

Confirmation is impossible right now, every person who has claimed to have read the Bible has been accused of not reading it correctly.