Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Rhyfelwyr]

For myself, I will not even treat with any doctrine which describes man as dispicable before God. A Father who despises his children?

No.

He doesn't despise our souls, He would love for everyone of us to come to Him. However, we are born as slaves to sin, and our actions must be pretty despicable to God.

Remember, God knows us before we ever come into this world. Those who are slaves to sin in their lifetime chose that fate. Those who are brought to salvation were elected because they would accept God. Salvation is unconditional on what happens in this lifetime, but God judges based on what He sees in our hearts before we are born. So really, all of history is simply the story of the elect being brought to salvation.

You are still limiting God though, unless you accept that God has created the majoriety of people for destruction. Follow, if God creates every man and woman we cannot be other than as God intended, because God is perfect and all-powerful. So, if we are what God intended and some of us are predetermined not to accept him then we have not been created to accept him.

So, either God has screwed up with hummanity or he has created people with the sole puropse of tempting the elect and then suffering for eternity in Hell.

My conclusion is that Calvinism either limits God's power, his justice, his mercy, or his knowledge. Therefore it is bad doctrine

God does not predestine anyone to damnation (I don't endorse double predestination, "those whom He did predestine..."). Yes, God has foreknowledge of everyone's fate, but their fates are not decided because of His foreknowledge (other than the affect His foreknowledge has on His decision not to elect them to salvation), because God's decision to leave them to their own devices is based on their choice. Of course when people are left to themselves, Satan is quick to enslave them.

Presuming we do not believe that every human will somehow get to Heaven, if you think that peoples fates beyond their lifetime on earth are based on their free-will, why would that make God anymore just than if He used them for His purpose (which is purely good in itself)? Either way, He must have known of their fate.

Unless you also believe that God cannot overrule the dimension of time that He created (to know the fate of all who He creates)? Yet time cannot have always existed, since God himself is timeless.

Never mind Calvinism, that is limiting God.

The arguments against Calvinism seem to be based on the belief that humans somehow deserve salvation. And yet we must acknowledge that without God we are slaves to sin, everything we do is evil, even if we appear to do something good it is for selfish purposes.

It is out of mercy that any are saved.

There is one good thing in existance, and it is God. The two are inseperable, God is good and any good stems from God. Everything He creates is good (in serving its function in God's triumph over evil), even if it does not always appear to us to be so. We know evil must exist. Because if it did not, then God would have to be limited as evil was overpowering Him in establishing itself. So clearly, evil must exist, even if only temporarily. Maybe if only to defeat the original sin, pride.

Which presumably arose out of a desire for free-will, to be independent of God. And still that is what theologians want when they interpret the scriptures - free-will, the root of all evil itself. They want to believe that if they come to God, it is on their terms.

Going back to the original point, God certaintly does not hate His children. He gave us the free-will we desired, and humanity on the whole reaped the consequences. However, those who God knows to have the potential to overcome pride (if we take it as the root of all sin), have with them the grace of God to ensure that they accept Him within their lifetime - that is what predestination is all about. A gift to those who would accept God. For a Christian, you can continue with the parent theme and recognise that suffering is simply God disciplining His children - and you can take confidence in the knowledge that God is guiding you towards Him.

Don't misinterpret me as suggesting that free-will does not exist - it is because of free-will that anyone ever had to endure suffering. However, that free-will exists before our lifetimes on earth - while we sit here everything we do is simply acting out the inevitable, knowing that those who accept God give Him their willing obedience.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He doesn't despise our souls, He would love for everyone of us to come to Him. However, we are born as slaves to sin, and our actions must be pretty despicable to God.

Slaves to sin? Again, doctrine, not scripture. That's Protestant penitentialism, can you demonstrate we are enslaved to anything? Again I direct you to the book of Job, who never renounced God even as he raved at his fate.

Remember, God knows us before we ever come into this world. Those who are slaves to sin in their lifetime chose that fate. Those who are brought to salvation were elected because they would accept God. Salvation is unconditional on what happens in this lifetime, but God judges based on what He sees in our hearts before we are born. So really, all of history is simply the story of the elect being brought to salvation.

Once again you imply a temporal aspect to God because you give God a "before"

God does not predestine anyone to damnation (I don't endorse double predestination, "those whom He did predestine..."). Yes, God has foreknowledge of everyone's fate, but their fates are not decided because of His foreknowledge (other than the affect His foreknowledge has on His decision not to elect them to salvation), because God's decision to leave them to their own devices is based on their choice. Of course when people are left to themselves, Satan is quick to enslave them.

You have said previously that we cannot escape sin without God's help. If this is so then God's witholding of salvation is an act of damning. If you have the medicine to cure a man, sure to work, and you withold it you murder him. Further, you have said God's call is irresistable, in which case there is NO ONE who would resist when called.

Presuming we do not believe that every human will somehow get to Heaven, if you think that peoples fates beyond their lifetime on earth are based on their free-will, why would that make God anymore just than if He used them for His purpose (which is purely good in itself)? Either way, He must have known of their fate.

I don't believe in election to begin with. God makes no choices about our fate. Second, there are several contingencies wherin everyone can be damned and go to heaven as well. The best at the moment is multiple dimensions, where every choice for evey action is enacted. Leaving that aside, see after your next quote.

Unless you also believe that God cannot overrule the dimension of time that He created (to know the fate of all who He creates)? Yet time cannot have always existed, since God himself is timeless.

I believe God chooses not to be involved, we are not arbitarily created in the womb the way we were thought to be when Calvin was alive, we are the result of random biological processes. Since God is timeless there is no before and no after for him. So for him we do not exist before we were born, we will not have existed after we die. The simplest way of expalining it is to say that God doesn't look, rather than saying he looks and then does nothing. He allows us the choice, and he does not influence the outcome.

The arguments against Calvinism seem to be based on the belief that humans somehow deserve salvation. And yet we must acknowledge that without God we are slaves to sin, everything we do is evil, even if we appear to do something good it is for selfish purposes.

It is out of mercy that any are saved.

There is one good thing in existance, and it is God. The two are inseperable, God is good and any good stems from God. Everything He creates is good (in serving its function in God's triumph over evil), even if it does not always appear to us to be so. We know evil must exist. Because if it did not, then God would have to be limited as evil was overpowering Him in establishing itself. So clearly, evil must exist, even if only temporarily. Maybe if only to defeat the original sin, pride.

Which presumably arose out of a desire for free-will, to be independent of God. And still that is what theologians want when they interpret the scriptures - free-will, the root of all evil itself. They want to believe that if they come to God, it is on their terms.

God created Man, therfore Man must in some sense be good, or at least have a portion of good. You arguement about evil makes no sense to me, you say evil must exist because if it did not it would overpower God. If it didn't exist?

In any case, I would say evil is a state of mind, not a tangible thing. If it is a state of mind it is a result of our faulty and limited perception. In any case, man is considered to have free-will before the fall, if he did not he would not have erred. Erred is the right word, by the way because man when his oginally sinned did not understand the nature of sin. This, I believe is why we are offered salvation.

In any case, you have said that we are only saved out of mercy. That limits God's justice. If God is just he will not save those who do not deserve to be saved. You could respond by saying that we are Justified in faith, but that is anti-Cqatholic rhetoric. It would be more theologically correct to say we are "excused" through faith, we are never justified. However, if we were completely to blame and without redeeming features why would God offer undiserved and therfore unjust mercy?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Slaves to sin? Again, doctrine, not scripture. That's Protestant penitentialism, can you demonstrate we are enslaved to anything? Again I direct you to the book of Job, who never renounced God even as he raved at his fate.

What about Psalm 51 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

We are born as slaves to sin in this world. However, numerous characters in the OT speak of God knowing them before they were born, and David says he was specifically chosen by God. If, as you say, you do not believe God has/uses foreknowledge, how else could be possibly have known them if they had not existed before they were born into this world and enslaved by sin?

Once again you imply a temporal aspect to God because you give God a "before"

No, God is outwith time. Sometimes He just intervenes in earth and plays along to the dimension of time so we can understand what He is doing, whether it is speaking to Moses or whatever.

If God was truly to reveal Himself to us directly, in all His glory, and not just playing along to our worldly limits, then there would be no need for faith - the central idea behind Christianity.

You have said previously that we cannot escape sin without God's help. If this is so then God's witholding of salvation is an act of damning. If you have the medicine to cure a man, sure to work, and you withold it you murder him. Further, you have said God's call is irresistable, in which case there is NO ONE who would resist when called.

By our understanding of time, He judges us before we are born, our names written in the Book of Life (although that was "before" we existed in any manner - God is not limited by time). That fact alone shows our fates are predetermined.

I don't believe in election to begin with. God makes no choices about our fate. Second, there are several contingencies wherin everyone can be damned and go to heaven as well. The best at the moment is multiple dimensions, where every choice for evey action is enacted. Leaving that aside, see after your next quote.

I believe there can only be one dimension, one timeline, and everything that happens in it is inevitable. Otherwise the prophecies in the Bible could never have been predicted.

I believe God chooses not to be involved, we are not arbitarily created in the womb the way we were thought to be when Calvin was alive, we are the result of random biological processes. Since God is timeless there is no before and no after for him. So for him we do not exist before we were born, we will not have existed after we die. The simplest way of expalining it is to say that God doesn't look, rather than saying he looks and then does nothing. He allows us the choice, and he does not influence the outcome.

Flesh comes from flesh, that is true - our bodies are merely the result of biological processes. And that's why we shouldn't be too concerned about them. Our spirit is much more important, it is created by God Himself.

God created Man, therfore Man must in some sense be good, or at least have a portion of good. You arguement about evil makes no sense to me, you say evil must exist because if it did not it would overpower God. If it didn't exist?

In any case, I would say evil is a state of mind, not a tangible thing. If it is a state of mind it is a result of our faulty and limited perception. In any case, man is considered to have free-will before the fall, if he did not he would not have erred. Erred is the right word, by the way because man when his oginally sinned did not understand the nature of sin. This, I believe is why we are offered salvation.

Maybe God judges based on those who sin through ignorance, because they are enslaved to Satan, and those who rejoice in sin, choosing to remain Satan's slave.

The pain suffered by the elect is merely chastisement, like a parent teaching a child that they have erred. Whereas other suffering, the pointless suffering that people bring upon each other, is simply a result of Godlessness. God never randomly punishes sinners, He only ever punishes his children.

Maybe, since humanity chose poorly with its free-will, we must suffer Godlessness in order to willingly be brought back to God - meaning we will never suffer from a misuse of free-will again.

In any case, you have said that we are only saved out of mercy. That limits God's justice. If God is just he will not save those who do not deserve to be saved. You could respond by saying that we are Justified in faith, but that is anti-Cqatholic rhetoric. It would be more theologically correct to say we are "excused" through faith, we are never justified. However, if we were completely to blame and without redeeming features why would God offer undiserved and therfore unjust mercy?

Why must justification through faith be anti-Catholic rhetoric? Just because the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with it?

People have a choice to accept God - I believe that choice is irreversible, and is made before we are born, before we exist in any form on this earth, before we are chained by Satan.

Now, if you chose God before coming into this earth, then God will not deny you His gift, and will overcome all the wickedness in us, overcome us even if we resist Him, and give us the gift that we willingly accepted before Satan corrupted us.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What about Psalm 51 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

We are born as slaves to sin in this world. However, numerous characters in the OT speak of God knowing them before they were born, and David says he was specifically chosen by God. If, as you say, you do not believe God has/uses foreknowledge, how else could be possibly have known them if they had not existed before they were born into this world and enslaved by sin?

That does not demonstrate we are slaves to sin, merely that we are born sinful, i.e. disobedient and imperfect.

No, God is outwith time. Sometimes He just intervenes in earth and plays along to the dimension of time so we can understand what He is doing, whether it is speaking to Moses or whatever.

If God was truly to reveal Himself to us directly, in all His glory, and not just playing along to our worldly limits, then there would be no need for faith - the central idea behind Christianity.

So then we chose in this life? You said we had already chosen before we were born, you can't have it both ways. Either we make the choice in this life or it has already been made.

[quote]By our understanding of time, He judges us before we are born, our names written in the Book of Life (although that was "before" we existed in any manner - God is not limited by time). That fact alone shows our fates are predetermined.[/qutoe]

No it doesn't, because Revelations contains a warning that any tampering with the Book will result in removal from the Book of Life, this injunction indicates two things:

1. The possibility of corrupting scripture.

2. The possibility of a man's fate being changed.

If these things were not possible the injunction and warning would be both unnecessary and pointless.

I believe there can only be one dimension, one timeline, and everything that happens in it is inevitable. Otherwise the prophecies in the Bible could never have been predicted.

Of coure they could. God could predict different things in different timelines. In any case the prophecies are often ofscure and the only definately fulfilled ones are the ones concerning Jesus and it is acceptable to say that in an otherwise changable universe God, and therefore Christ are constant.

In any case the evidence is increasingly pointing towards multiply dimensions and to say, "I don't believe my senses", is as faulty as saying, "America is not in ther Bible and so doesn't exist."

Flesh comes from flesh, that is true - our bodies are merely the result of biological processes. And that's why we shouldn't be too concerned about them. Our spirit is much more important, it is created by God Himself.

If God creates our spirits and some of us are predetermined to reject God then he has created us so. All men and women are created to love God and worship him, so how can you say God creates all souls if some are created to reject him?

Maybe God judges based on those who sin through ignorance, because they are enslaved to Satan, and those who rejoice in sin, choosing to remain Satan's slave.

You mean he judges between those he releases and those he does not? Again, you said previously that Grace is irresistable. If man cannot resist Grace then the wilfully disobedient must have had Grace witheld.

The pain suffered by the elect is merely chastisement, like a parent teaching a child that they have erred. Whereas other suffering, the pointless suffering that people bring upon each other, is simply a result of Godlessness. God never randomly punishes sinners, He only ever punishes his children.

All people are God's children, all people are decended (according to the Bible) From Adam, that is why we sin to begin with.

Maybe, since humanity chose poorly with its free-will, we must suffer Godlessness in order to willingly be brought back to God - meaning we will never suffer from a misuse of free-will again.

Something to think about: Man chose Sin when he did not know what Sin was.

Why must justification through faith be anti-Catholic rhetoric? Just because the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with it?

The doctrine is anti-Catholic because it was designed to neuter the power of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.

People have a choice to accept God - I believe that choice is irreversible, and is made before we are born, before we exist in any form on this earth, before we are chained by Satan.

Now, if you chose God before coming into this earth, then God will not deny you His gift, and will overcome all the wickedness in us, overcome us even if we resist Him, and give us the gift that we willingly accepted before Satan corrupted us.

Frankly, this is doctrine again, and very late doctrine at that.

First principles:

God is Just.

How can a Just God create some to be damned and others not, have us make the choice before we are born, which is determined by our nater He has made, and then force us to suffer through this life?

[Sigurd]

This is a refreshing discussion here at the .org.
I want to dissect too.

...
We are born as slaves to sin in this world. However, numerous characters in the OT speak of God knowing them before they were born, and David says he was specifically chosen by God ...
...
Flesh comes from flesh, that is true - our bodies are merely the result of biological processes. And that's why we shouldn't be too concerned about them. Our spirit is much more important, it is created by God Himself ...

The notion that God knew someone before they were born suggest life before birth. And predestination cold translate to preordination, an intriguing thought, and I believe, doctrine in certain branches of Christianity.

No, God is with out time. Sometimes He just intervenes in earth and plays along to the dimension of time so we can understand what He is doing, whether it is speaking to Moses or whatever.

I believe there can only be one dimension, one time line, and everything that happens in it is inevitable. Otherwise the prophecies in the Bible could never have been predicted.

Having different definitions of who or what God is could lead to thrilling discussion on time and space. Considering the story behind how the immaterial God came to be, this very idea should be questioned my modern Christians.

God never randomly punishes sinners, He only ever punishes his children.

Tell that to the pre-deluge people and the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now, if you chose God before coming into this earth, then God will not deny you His gift, and will overcome all the wickedness in us, overcome us even if we resist Him, and give us the gift that we willingly accepted before Satan corrupted us.

Now this is a Mormon doctrine called: pre-mortal life and the choice made at the council in heaven.

Of course they could. God could predict different things in different time lines. In any case the prophecies are often obscure and the only definitely fulfilled ones are the ones concerning Jesus and it is acceptable to say that in an otherwise changeable universe God, and therefore Christ are constant.

To predict things would be simple for an eternal being having omnipotence. Whatever you predict, you will make sure it happens. No need for fate or predestination.

All people are God's children, all people are descended (according to the Bible) From Adam, that is why we sin to begin with.
...
Something to think about: Man chose Sin when he did not know what Sin was.

One of the things I based my leave of the Lutheran church was the notion of original sin and babies going to hell if they were not baptized.

Frankly, this is doctrine again, and very late doctrine at that.

First principles:

God is Just.

How can a Just God create some to be damned and others not, have us make the choice before we are born, which is determined by our nater He has made, and then force us to suffer through this life?

Yes... I think this is the basis for the Christian need of a redeemer. As I understand it God is perfectly just and executes perfect justice.
Like any law that demands payment for breaking it, so does the law of God. No mercy involved.
If you break the law, i.e sin, you are damned from heaven.
Christ atoned for every sin past present and future. He is the mediator with God (Justice).
Justice demands payment and Christ payed up for all (believers and nonbelievers).

This is where it gets tricky. Christ demands something for his leverage with justice. Faith, repentance and baptism is what he asks in addition to some other minor stuff.
Apparently in some denominations all it takes is to speak his name and you will magically be transformed to a clean being, never to do evil again and justice will not have claim on you.
This is what according to Christianity mankind can chose freely. To follow Christ. To chose freedom and heaven or the full weight of justice on their own shoulders and paying out of their own pocket in Gehenna.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Interesting stuff Sigurd, especially the idea of preordination.

One thing though. I know I said we make a decision/are judged before we are born, however I did not mean at the council of heaven, because I am not a Mormon.

Especially in the Psalms, most notably of David, it is mentioned several times that God sees into our hearts when He is fashioning our spirit before we are born into sin and the flesh.

[Sigurd]

One thing though. I know I said we make a decision/are judged before we are born, however I did not mean at the council of heaven, because I am not a Mormon.

You "said" (how I interpreted it) that mankind makes an active choice before coming into this world. I can't think of any other denomination that teaches this.

Hints at preordination is found several places in the Bible and not just Psalms.
Take Jeremiah for example:

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(Jer 1:5)

Also, consider John the Baptist mentioned in Isaiah and then later in Luke when Zacharias was told that his unborn child should be named John and should prepare the way of the Lord.

There are other sources of literature that deals with this, but I doubt you would recognize non-canonical texts.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What about Psalm 51 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

We are born as slaves to sin in this world. However, numerous characters in the OT speak of God knowing them before they were born, and David says he was specifically chosen by God. If, as you say, you do not believe God has/uses foreknowledge, how else could be possibly have known them if they had not existed before they were born into this world and enslaved by sin?

That does not demonstrate we are slaves to sin, merely that we are born sinful, i.e. disobedient and imperfect.

No, God is outwith time. Sometimes He just intervenes in earth and plays along to the dimension of time so we can understand what He is doing, whether it is speaking to Moses or whatever.

If God was truly to reveal Himself to us directly, in all His glory, and not just playing along to our worldly limits, then there would be no need for faith - the central idea behind Christianity.

So then we chose in this life? You said we had already chosen before we were born, you can't have it both ways. Either we make the choice in this life or it has already been made.

[quote]By our understanding of time, He judges us before we are born, our names written in the Book of Life (although that was "before" we existed in any manner - God is not limited by time). That fact alone shows our fates are predetermined.[/qutoe]

No it doesn't, because Revelations contains a warning that any tampering with the Book will result in removal from the Book of Life, this injunction indicates two things:

1. The possibility of corrupting scripture.

2. The possibility of a man's fate being changed.

If these things were not possible the injunction and warning would be both unnecessary and pointless.

I believe there can only be one dimension, one timeline, and everything that happens in it is inevitable. Otherwise the prophecies in the Bible could never have been predicted.

Of coure they could. God could predict different things in different timelines. In any case the prophecies are often ofscure and the only definately fulfilled ones are the ones concerning Jesus and it is acceptable to say that in an otherwise changable universe God, and therefore Christ are constant.

In any case the evidence is increasingly pointing towards multiply dimensions and to say, "I don't believe my senses", is as faulty as saying, "America is not in ther Bible and so doesn't exist."

Flesh comes from flesh, that is true - our bodies are merely the result of biological processes. And that's why we shouldn't be too concerned about them. Our spirit is much more important, it is created by God Himself.

If God creates our spirits and some of us are predetermined to reject God then he has created us so. All men and women are created to love God and worship him, so how can you say God creates all souls if some are created to reject him?

Maybe God judges based on those who sin through ignorance, because they are enslaved to Satan, and those who rejoice in sin, choosing to remain Satan's slave.

You mean he judges between those he releases and those he does not? Again, you said previously that Grace is irresistable. If man cannot resist Grace then the wilfully disobedient must have had Grace witheld.

The pain suffered by the elect is merely chastisement, like a parent teaching a child that they have erred. Whereas other suffering, the pointless suffering that people bring upon each other, is simply a result of Godlessness. God never randomly punishes sinners, He only ever punishes his children.

All people are God's children, all people are decended (according to the Bible) From Adam, that is why we sin to begin with.

Maybe, since humanity chose poorly with its free-will, we must suffer Godlessness in order to willingly be brought back to God - meaning we will never suffer from a misuse of free-will again.

Something to think about: Man chose Sin when he did not know what Sin was.

Why must justification through faith be anti-Catholic rhetoric? Just because the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with it?

The doctrine is anti-Catholic because it was designed to neuter the power of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.

People have a choice to accept God - I believe that choice is irreversible, and is made before we are born, before we exist in any form on this earth, before we are chained by Satan.

Now, if you chose God before coming into this earth, then God will not deny you His gift, and will overcome all the wickedness in us, overcome us even if we resist Him, and give us the gift that we willingly accepted before Satan corrupted us.

Frankly, this is doctrine again, and very late doctrine at that.

First principles:

God is Just.

How can a Just God create some to be damned and others not, have us make the choice before we are born, which is determined by our nater He has made, and then force us to suffer through this life?

[Rhyfelwyr]

That does not demonstrate we are slaves to sin, merely that we are born sinful, i.e. disobedient and imperfect.

How could anyone possibly resist sin without God's grace? I we are born sinners and do not even see our own iniquity, how could we possibly repent and come to God?

So then we chose in this life? You said we had already chosen before we were born, you can't have it both ways. Either we make the choice in this life or it has already been made.

No, we chose before this life. Our souls exist before we are born into this world, before we are conceived in sin. It is in this period when God fashions our spirit that God looks into our hearts and judges us. To those He elects based upon what He sees, He gives them the gift of salvation. It must be irresistable, because to claim it is not would be to deny God's sovereignty, and would mean that the elect could be swayed by the sin of the flesh.

No it doesn't, because Revelations contains a warning that any tampering with the Book will result in removal from the Book of Life, this injunction indicates two things:

1. The possibility of corrupting scripture.

2. The possibility of a man's fate being changed.

If these things were not possible the injunction and warning would be both unnecessary and pointless.

It only says names can be blotted out by the Lamb, so you must still acknowledge that those never mentioned in the Book of Life were never going to accept God - their fates were known to Him. Not because God worked in their lives to ensure that fate as He does with the elect, but because they chose to reject Him before they were born.

However, the fact that it says names can be blotted out is interesting, and I will look into it further...

Of coure they could. God could predict different things in different timelines. In any case the prophecies are often ofscure and the only definately fulfilled ones are the ones concerning Jesus and it is acceptable to say that in an otherwise changable universe God, and therefore Christ are constant.

In any case the evidence is increasingly pointing towards multiply dimensions and to say, "I don't believe my senses", is as faulty as saying, "America is not in ther Bible and so doesn't exist."

We can't really know the answer to this, but I still prefer the one timeline theory.

If God creates our spirits and some of us are predetermined to reject God then he has created us so. All men and women are created to love God and worship him, so how can you say God creates all souls if some are created to reject him?

Indeed they are created to love and worship Him. But they rebel, just as Adam himself did. Their rebellion against God is seen before they are born, therefore they are not elected to salvation.

Is God weak because He allows this rebellion - no! He allowed Satan to rebel too remember - do you think this was because Satan was too powerful for God to handle? Ultimately, God will use such people/creatures/spirits in bringing the elect to salvation, before destroying them utterly in the Lake of Fire.

You mean he judges between those he releases and those he does not? Again, you said previously that Grace is irresistable. If man cannot resist Grace then the wilfully disobedient must have had Grace witheld.

Grace is witheld for some because those people never wanted to accept it. This was before they were born and enslaved by sin, therefore God is righteous in his judgement.

Once you have been elected to salvation, grace is indeed irresistable in this lifetime.

All people are God's children, all people are decended (according to the Bible) From Adam, that is why we sin to begin with.

Agreed.

Something to think about: Man chose Sin when he did not know what Sin was.

Now man knows well what sin is, and must suffer the punishment for rebellion against God, if only as chastisement to be steered back to Him.

The doctrine is anti-Catholic because it was designed to neuter the power of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.

As opposed to only saints in the Catholic sense being justified and having all the benefits of a union with Christ?

Frankly, this is doctrine again, and very late doctrine at that.

First principles:

God is Just.

How can a Just God create some to be damned and others not, have us make the choice before we are born, which is determined by our nater He has made, and then force us to suffer through this life?

Our fates on earth are predestined, based on choices we made (or perhaps simply a judgement by God) before we were born.

We were not predestined to make that choice by God (it was inevitable but He didn't work in our [pre-]lives to influence us), although he did have foreknowledge of it. Indeed, he is outwith time, he can be at the beginning and ends of its dimension at once.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How could anyone possibly resist sin without God's grace? I we are born sinners and do not even see our own iniquity, how could we possibly repent and come to God?

We do not know our iniquity? I think most of us have at least an idea.

No, we chose before this life. Our souls exist before we are born into this world, before we are conceived in sin. It is in this period when God fashions our spirit that God looks into our hearts and judges us. To those He elects based upon what He sees, He gives them the gift of salvation. It must be irresistable, because to claim it is not would be to deny God's sovereignty, and would mean that the elect could be swayed by the sin of the flesh.

So we had Sin before we entered this world? The rejection of God is a Sin, therefore if we reject God we Sin, but if God fashioned our Souls, in heaven or elsewhere, then they must be perfect before we entered this world. So how could we reject God before we entered this world?

Are you suggesting God is incompetant, that he cannot reliable create perfect souls?

It only says names can be blotted out by the Lamb, so you must still acknowledge that those never mentioned in the Book of Life were never going to accept God - their fates were known to Him. Not because God worked in their lives to ensure that fate as He does with the elect, but because they chose to reject Him before they were born.

No, it says specifically, it's right at the end of the bible, the KJV reads roughly," Whosoever adds unto this book the Lord shall add unto him the curses contained with this book and whosoever takes from this book the Lord shall take him from the book of life."

In any case, names blotted out would have had to once have been written. You still haven't provided scriptural support for the assertion that human souls reject God before birth.

[quote]However, the fact that it says names can be blotted out is interesting, and I will look into it further...[/;quote]

Good, glad to hear it. Don't talk to your priest about it first.

We can't really know the answer to this, but I still prefer the one timeline theory.

Personnally I sometimes feel I'd prefer no God, but it doesn't change anything

Indeed they are created to love and worship Him. But they rebel, just as Adam himself did. Their rebellion against God is seen before they are born, therefore they are not elected to salvation.

Again, how can God create souls pre-ordained to reject him before they even come into contact with sin.

Is God weak because He allows this rebellion - no! He allowed Satan to rebel too remember - do you think this was because Satan was too powerful for God to handle? Ultimately, God will use such people/creatures/spirits in bringing the elect to salvation, before destroying them utterly in the Lake of Fire.

So they have been created to be destroyed? How is this Just? Why does God destroy some of his children and not others? Why, if it is so ordained, is their fate so terrible?

Grace is witheld for some because those people never wanted to accept it. This was before they were born and enslaved by sin, therefore God is righteous in his judgement.

You said Grace is irresistable, therefore anyone who is offered it will accept it. To say that some would not is to limit God's power.

Once you have been elected to salvation, grace is indeed irresistable in this lifetime.

So a soul is able, powerful enough, to resist God outside of this world? Then you limit his power.

As opposed to only saints in the Catholic sense being justified and having all the benefits of a union with Christ?

I'm afraid you've been fed lies here. A saint is anyone who enters heaven. A Canonical Saint is one whom the Church considers has definately entered heaven. Whatever you may think of Catholic politics theologically Canonical Saints are no different to others in heaven, they are just the ones the Church is "sure" are there.

Our fates on earth are predestined, based on choices we made (or perhaps simply a judgement by God) before we were born.

We were not predestined to make that choice by God (it was inevitable but He didn't work in our [pre-]lives to influence us), although he did have foreknowledge of it. Indeed, he is outwith time, he can be at the beginning and ends of its dimension at once.

Your arguement doesn't add up. God cannot "allow" things to happen accept by ommission, not saving someone, not extending Grace, is the same as active damnation.