Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That does not demonstrate we are slaves to sin, merely that we are born sinful, i.e. disobedient and imperfect.

How could anyone possibly resist sin without God's grace? I we are born sinners and do not even see our own iniquity, how could we possibly repent and come to God?

So then we chose in this life? You said we had already chosen before we were born, you can't have it both ways. Either we make the choice in this life or it has already been made.

No, we chose before this life. Our souls exist before we are born into this world, before we are conceived in sin. It is in this period when God fashions our spirit that God looks into our hearts and judges us. To those He elects based upon what He sees, He gives them the gift of salvation. It must be irresistable, because to claim it is not would be to deny God's sovereignty, and would mean that the elect could be swayed by the sin of the flesh.

No it doesn't, because Revelations contains a warning that any tampering with the Book will result in removal from the Book of Life, this injunction indicates two things:

1. The possibility of corrupting scripture.

2. The possibility of a man's fate being changed.

If these things were not possible the injunction and warning would be both unnecessary and pointless.

It only says names can be blotted out by the Lamb, so you must still acknowledge that those never mentioned in the Book of Life were never going to accept God - their fates were known to Him. Not because God worked in their lives to ensure that fate as He does with the elect, but because they chose to reject Him before they were born.

However, the fact that it says names can be blotted out is interesting, and I will look into it further...

Of coure they could. God could predict different things in different timelines. In any case the prophecies are often ofscure and the only definately fulfilled ones are the ones concerning Jesus and it is acceptable to say that in an otherwise changable universe God, and therefore Christ are constant.

In any case the evidence is increasingly pointing towards multiply dimensions and to say, "I don't believe my senses", is as faulty as saying, "America is not in ther Bible and so doesn't exist."

We can't really know the answer to this, but I still prefer the one timeline theory.

If God creates our spirits and some of us are predetermined to reject God then he has created us so. All men and women are created to love God and worship him, so how can you say God creates all souls if some are created to reject him?

Indeed they are created to love and worship Him. But they rebel, just as Adam himself did. Their rebellion against God is seen before they are born, therefore they are not elected to salvation.

Is God weak because He allows this rebellion - no! He allowed Satan to rebel too remember - do you think this was because Satan was too powerful for God to handle? Ultimately, God will use such people/creatures/spirits in bringing the elect to salvation, before destroying them utterly in the Lake of Fire.

You mean he judges between those he releases and those he does not? Again, you said previously that Grace is irresistable. If man cannot resist Grace then the wilfully disobedient must have had Grace witheld.

Grace is witheld for some because those people never wanted to accept it. This was before they were born and enslaved by sin, therefore God is righteous in his judgement.

Once you have been elected to salvation, grace is indeed irresistable in this lifetime.

All people are God's children, all people are decended (according to the Bible) From Adam, that is why we sin to begin with.

Agreed.

Something to think about: Man chose Sin when he did not know what Sin was.

Now man knows well what sin is, and must suffer the punishment for rebellion against God, if only as chastisement to be steered back to Him.

The doctrine is anti-Catholic because it was designed to neuter the power of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.

As opposed to only saints in the Catholic sense being justified and having all the benefits of a union with Christ?

Frankly, this is doctrine again, and very late doctrine at that.

First principles:

God is Just.

How can a Just God create some to be damned and others not, have us make the choice before we are born, which is determined by our nater He has made, and then force us to suffer through this life?

Our fates on earth are predestined, based on choices we made (or perhaps simply a judgement by God) before we were born.

We were not predestined to make that choice by God (it was inevitable but He didn't work in our [pre-]lives to influence us), although he did have foreknowledge of it. Indeed, he is outwith time, he can be at the beginning and ends of its dimension at once.