Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Slaves to sin? Again, doctrine, not scripture. That's Protestant penitentialism, can you demonstrate we are enslaved to anything? Again I direct you to the book of Job, who never renounced God even as he raved at his fate.

What about Psalm 51 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

We are born as slaves to sin in this world. However, numerous characters in the OT speak of God knowing them before they were born, and David says he was specifically chosen by God. If, as you say, you do not believe God has/uses foreknowledge, how else could be possibly have known them if they had not existed before they were born into this world and enslaved by sin?

Once again you imply a temporal aspect to God because you give God a "before"

No, God is outwith time. Sometimes He just intervenes in earth and plays along to the dimension of time so we can understand what He is doing, whether it is speaking to Moses or whatever.

If God was truly to reveal Himself to us directly, in all His glory, and not just playing along to our worldly limits, then there would be no need for faith - the central idea behind Christianity.

You have said previously that we cannot escape sin without God's help. If this is so then God's witholding of salvation is an act of damning. If you have the medicine to cure a man, sure to work, and you withold it you murder him. Further, you have said God's call is irresistable, in which case there is NO ONE who would resist when called.

By our understanding of time, He judges us before we are born, our names written in the Book of Life (although that was "before" we existed in any manner - God is not limited by time). That fact alone shows our fates are predetermined.

I don't believe in election to begin with. God makes no choices about our fate. Second, there are several contingencies wherin everyone can be damned and go to heaven as well. The best at the moment is multiple dimensions, where every choice for evey action is enacted. Leaving that aside, see after your next quote.

I believe there can only be one dimension, one timeline, and everything that happens in it is inevitable. Otherwise the prophecies in the Bible could never have been predicted.

I believe God chooses not to be involved, we are not arbitarily created in the womb the way we were thought to be when Calvin was alive, we are the result of random biological processes. Since God is timeless there is no before and no after for him. So for him we do not exist before we were born, we will not have existed after we die. The simplest way of expalining it is to say that God doesn't look, rather than saying he looks and then does nothing. He allows us the choice, and he does not influence the outcome.

Flesh comes from flesh, that is true - our bodies are merely the result of biological processes. And that's why we shouldn't be too concerned about them. Our spirit is much more important, it is created by God Himself.

God created Man, therfore Man must in some sense be good, or at least have a portion of good. You arguement about evil makes no sense to me, you say evil must exist because if it did not it would overpower God. If it didn't exist?

In any case, I would say evil is a state of mind, not a tangible thing. If it is a state of mind it is a result of our faulty and limited perception. In any case, man is considered to have free-will before the fall, if he did not he would not have erred. Erred is the right word, by the way because man when his oginally sinned did not understand the nature of sin. This, I believe is why we are offered salvation.

Maybe God judges based on those who sin through ignorance, because they are enslaved to Satan, and those who rejoice in sin, choosing to remain Satan's slave.

The pain suffered by the elect is merely chastisement, like a parent teaching a child that they have erred. Whereas other suffering, the pointless suffering that people bring upon each other, is simply a result of Godlessness. God never randomly punishes sinners, He only ever punishes his children.

Maybe, since humanity chose poorly with its free-will, we must suffer Godlessness in order to willingly be brought back to God - meaning we will never suffer from a misuse of free-will again.

In any case, you have said that we are only saved out of mercy. That limits God's justice. If God is just he will not save those who do not deserve to be saved. You could respond by saying that we are Justified in faith, but that is anti-Cqatholic rhetoric. It would be more theologically correct to say we are "excused" through faith, we are never justified. However, if we were completely to blame and without redeeming features why would God offer undiserved and therfore unjust mercy?

Why must justification through faith be anti-Catholic rhetoric? Just because the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with it?

People have a choice to accept God - I believe that choice is irreversible, and is made before we are born, before we exist in any form on this earth, before we are chained by Satan.

Now, if you chose God before coming into this earth, then God will not deny you His gift, and will overcome all the wickedness in us, overcome us even if we resist Him, and give us the gift that we willingly accepted before Satan corrupted us.