Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
What about Psalm 51 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

We are born as slaves to sin in this world. However, numerous characters in the OT speak of God knowing them before they were born, and David says he was specifically chosen by God. If, as you say, you do not believe God has/uses foreknowledge, how else could be possibly have known them if they had not existed before they were born into this world and enslaved by sin?
That does not demonstrate we are slaves to sin, merely that we are born sinful, i.e. disobedient and imperfect.

No, God is outwith time. Sometimes He just intervenes in earth and plays along to the dimension of time so we can understand what He is doing, whether it is speaking to Moses or whatever.

If God was truly to reveal Himself to us directly, in all His glory, and not just playing along to our worldly limits, then there would be no need for faith - the central idea behind Christianity.
So then we chose in this life? You said we had already chosen before we were born, you can't have it both ways. Either we make the choice in this life or it has already been made.

[quote]By our understanding of time, He judges us before we are born, our names written in the Book of Life (although that was "before" we existed in any manner - God is not limited by time). That fact alone shows our fates are predetermined.[/qutoe]

No it doesn't, because Revelations contains a warning that any tampering with the Book will result in removal from the Book of Life, this injunction indicates two things:

1. The possibility of corrupting scripture.

2. The possibility of a man's fate being changed.

If these things were not possible the injunction and warning would be both unnecessary and pointless.

I believe there can only be one dimension, one timeline, and everything that happens in it is inevitable. Otherwise the prophecies in the Bible could never have been predicted.
Of coure they could. God could predict different things in different timelines. In any case the prophecies are often ofscure and the only definately fulfilled ones are the ones concerning Jesus and it is acceptable to say that in an otherwise changable universe God, and therefore Christ are constant.

In any case the evidence is increasingly pointing towards multiply dimensions and to say, "I don't believe my senses", is as faulty as saying, "America is not in ther Bible and so doesn't exist."

Flesh comes from flesh, that is true - our bodies are merely the result of biological processes. And that's why we shouldn't be too concerned about them. Our spirit is much more important, it is created by God Himself.
If God creates our spirits and some of us are predetermined to reject God then he has created us so. All men and women are created to love God and worship him, so how can you say God creates all souls if some are created to reject him?

Maybe God judges based on those who sin through ignorance, because they are enslaved to Satan, and those who rejoice in sin, choosing to remain Satan's slave.
You mean he judges between those he releases and those he does not? Again, you said previously that Grace is irresistable. If man cannot resist Grace then the wilfully disobedient must have had Grace witheld.

The pain suffered by the elect is merely chastisement, like a parent teaching a child that they have erred. Whereas other suffering, the pointless suffering that people bring upon each other, is simply a result of Godlessness. God never randomly punishes sinners, He only ever punishes his children.
All people are God's children, all people are decended (according to the Bible) From Adam, that is why we sin to begin with.

Maybe, since humanity chose poorly with its free-will, we must suffer Godlessness in order to willingly be brought back to God - meaning we will never suffer from a misuse of free-will again.
Something to think about: Man chose Sin when he did not know what Sin was.


Why must justification through faith be anti-Catholic rhetoric? Just because the Roman Catholic Church disagrees with it?
The doctrine is anti-Catholic because it was designed to neuter the power of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.

People have a choice to accept God - I believe that choice is irreversible, and is made before we are born, before we exist in any form on this earth, before we are chained by Satan.

Now, if you chose God before coming into this earth, then God will not deny you His gift, and will overcome all the wickedness in us, overcome us even if we resist Him, and give us the gift that we willingly accepted before Satan corrupted us.
Frankly, this is doctrine again, and very late doctrine at that.

First principles:

God is Just.

How can a Just God create some to be damned and others not, have us make the choice before we are born, which is determined by our nater He has made, and then force us to suffer through this life?