Obama; New Type of Hope, Same Type of Stupid (Gun Control)

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Acording to CR's concept of freedom, I am led to believe that it is even ridiculous that you have to register firearms. How dare the government keep track of how much firearms he has.

That's not the point. Why don't we see daily massacres using the registered "destructive devices"? Because if you're going to waste some rival gang, it's far cheaper to get a pistol illegally and it doesn't put you in the headlights of a witchhunt (the "RPG killer" would last maybe a few days).

True. But something tells me that if Anti-tank weaponry would be as readily available in market as there are Uzi's and glocks, something tells me the number of people being killed by those weapons would skyrocket. I certainly wouldn't be surprised in Gang Wars appearing the said Anti-tank weaponry as a means to do splash damage to the opposite gang.

It just doesn't make any sense. Criminals don't need high explosives (especially in light of how high-profile fun toys like RPGs would be). Additionally, full-auto Uzi's are already essentially illegal. Gangs still have access to them. Why would a new gun ban be any more effective?

Opposite to my argument? That's funny. My stance is that even pistols shouldn't be available as they are in the USA, although I can understand the basic logic behind having a firearm. My argument in this thread is that there are more than enough types of firearms in the USA able of protecting yourself (Pistols included), so its hard to understand the violent opposition unless you use some kind of out of the blue argument (To other peoples) like (WE NEEDZ ASSAULT RIFLEZ TO KILLZ TEH TYRANTZ!), to which I find odd. Thus they are defending that every citizen, regardless of mental health, ideals and or beliefs (Imagine Neo-Nazi's getting hold of sweet hot brand new Assault Rifles!) is viable to carry firearms which far surpass any limit of common sense I can establish.

Sorry, I got confused with another gun debate on another forum (). To address your argument:

Why do you need video games? Or leisure forums? You don't. However, assault rifles are already illegal (because assault rifles are full-auto military rifles), and semi-auto rifles are just not used in crime all that much. In my opinion, the (very) few deaths from semi-auto rifles are worth the freedom to have them - for any reason. Just like we accept the death of thousands in auto accidents every year. Because the freedom to have them - economical and otherwise - is worth it.

[Jolt]

That's not the point. Why don't we see daily massacres using the registered "destructive devices"? Because if you're going to waste some rival gang, it's far cheaper to get a pistol illegally and it doesn't put you in the headlights of a witchhunt (the "RPG killer" would last maybe a few days).

True, but even so registered weapons are used often to kill. By users who shouldn't have them because the rules for firearms sales is too loose.

It just doesn't make any sense. Criminals don't need high explosives (especially in light of how high-profile fun toys like RPGs would be). Additionally, full-auto Uzi's are already essentially illegal. Gangs still have access to them. Why would a new gun ban be any more effective?

Uzi's are illegal? That's news for me. It was surprising to see how easily those guys in the Columbine massacre bought them in the shop just across the street.

Sorry, I got confused with another gun debate on another forum (). To address your argument:

Why do you need video games? Or leisure forums? You don't. However, assault rifles are already illegal (because assault rifles are full-auto military rifles), and semi-auto rifles are just not used in crime all that much. In my opinion, the (very) few deaths from semi-auto rifles are worth the freedom to have them - for any reason. Just like we accept the death of thousands in auto accidents every year. Because the freedom to have them - economical and otherwise - is worth it.

I can't believe you just compared a leisure forum, to a firearm. That was awesome. Leisure forums can't be used to kill innocent lives (I think). I could live without leisure forums. I can also live without firearms. Even semi-automatic rifles isn't needed to protect oneself. There is no other purpose in a semi-auto rifle then there is in a pistol. It serves to kill and to protect oneself. You can kill much more with a rifle and you won't protect yourself much better with a pistol. Cars have other purposes besides killing. Though your arguments are the soundest I've seen in this thread.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

True, but even so registered weapons are used often to kill. By users who shouldn't have them because the rules for firearms sales is too loose.

No way mang. Show me some numbers.

Uzi's are illegal? That's news for me. It was surprising to see how easily those guys in the Columbine massacre bought them in the shop just across the street.

Full-auto would be illegal. I don't really know enough about Uzi's specifically to say.

Most firearms are not used for killing. Are they being misued?

Cars kill more people than guns. We simply can't get rid of either in the US, and another AWB won't change anything.

You say that the value of cars (the other purposes) outweigh the cost in human life they cause. Who are you to say that?

/sorry for the stream of arguments, there's just so many things I want to convey before going to dinner

[Jolt]

No way mang. Show me some numbers.

What, you actually think most kills are from people who go off specifically to the black market to buy a gun to kill someone? Look at the Columbine Massacre, those guys bought their guns legally. I tried to look for numbers, but I have no clue where such American statistics lie. You can kill with a registered gun and not be found out.

Full-auto would be illegal. I don't really know enough about Uzi's specifically to say.

T'was a Tech 9 or whatever the name is.

Most firearms are not used for killing. Are they being misued?

What are they used for? Why do the USA have the highest death percentage by firearms if most firearms aren't used for that specific purpose they are built for?

Cars kill more people than guns. We simply can't get rid of either in the US, and another AWB won't change anything.

You say that the value of cars (the other purposes) outweigh the cost in human life they cause. Who are you to say that?

Not again... Ending this car comparison stuff, I'd guarantee you 90% of the deaths caused by a car are by accident. What about 90% of the deaths caused by firearms? Why the comparison? The government needs to do something about intentional kills. Heck, even the cars are modified so they are not as lethal as they are.
And I didn't say they outweigh anything. Dunno where that came from.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I can't believe you just compared a leisure forum, to a firearm. That was awesome. Leisure forums can't be used to kill innocent lives (I think). I could live without leisure forums.

See, this is why the argument is going in circles.

You said that the firearms should be banned because they weren't needed.

Atpg pointed out that you can't ban things because they aren't needed. That isn't some dumb argument, it's putting you back at square one. Your reply is that it's ok to ban things that aren't needed if they can kill you. Fine, now atpg can point out the zillions of other objects that can kill people effectively and aren't needed and you'll come up with some new reasoning. It isn't a ridiculous comparison on his part it's a poorly thought out or expressed argument on yours.

[Jolt]

See, this is why the argument is going in circles.

You said that the firearms should be banned because they weren't needed.

Atpg pointed out that you can't ban things because they aren't needed. That isn't some dumb argument, it's putting you back at square one. Your reply is that it's ok to ban things that aren't needed if they can kill you. Fine, now atpg can point out the zillions of other objects that can kill people effectively and aren't needed and you'll come up with some new reasoning. It isn't a ridiculous comparison on his part it's a poorly thought out or expressed argument on yours.

Thing is, guns kill effectively and people use them to kill effectively (Since there is no other purpose for weapons). I'm not so sure about the other zillion objects.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

What, you actually think most kills are from people who go off specifically to the black market to buy a gun to kill someone? Look at the Columbine Massacre, those guys bought their guns legally. I tried to look for numbers, but I have no clue where such American statistics lie. You can kill with a registered gun and not be found out.

I absolutely think that most kills are with unregistered firearms. Criminals do the majority of killing with firearms. Why would a criminal register himself with the police? And sure, you can kill with a registered gun and not be found out, but it really hurts your chances.

What are they used for?

Hunting, sport shooting, home defense, collecting, owning them because you think they're cool.

Why do the USA have the highest death percentage by firearms if most firearms aren't used for that specific purpose they are built for?

Do you know how many guns we have? You refuse to find statistics but you claim we have this or that death rate. That said, the far majority of firearms in the US are not used for murder.

Not again... Ending this car comparison stuff, I'd guarantee you 90% of the deaths caused by a car are by accident. What about 90% of the deaths caused by firearms? Why the comparison? The government needs to do something about intentional kills. Heck, even the cars are modified so they are not as lethal as they are.
And I didn't say they outweigh anything. Dunno where that came from.

Thing is, guns kill effectively and people use them to kill effectively (Since there is no other purpose for weapons). I'm not so sure about the other zillion objects.

Cars kill quite effectively, as the numbers show. More effectively than firearms, in fact.

I don´t want a gun, I don´t need a gun, and I don´t think a gun would contribute to my safety or those around me, quite the contrary.

No proponent of firearm ownership believes you should be forced to own one, to my knowledge.

[Jolt]

I absolutely think that most kills are with unregistered firearms. Criminals do the majority of killing with firearms. Why would a criminal register himself with the police? And sure, you can kill with a registered gun and not be found out, but it really hurts your chances.

I don't. If you can find the numbers I didn't manage to find, I'd give you reason. You aren't a criminal until you commit a crime. It wouldn't be hard to imagine myself in a situation where I legally buy a normal registered gun, and in some uncontrolable rage situation (Say some whacko murdered my entire familly to steal a car and I just so happen to know where he was taking the car to) and I grab my gun and go after him to kill him. In the beginning I didn't buy the gun with that specific motive. Thus how "criminals" use registered guns.

Hunting, sport shooting, home defense, collecting, owning them because you think they're cool.

Since I don't know personally how the gun culture is in the USA, I'll just have to presume you're right.

Do you know how many guns we have? You refuse to find statistics but you claim we have this or that death rate. That said, the far majority of firearms in the US are not used for murder.

I didn't refuse. I tried but I just couldn't get what I was looking for since I didn't know where to look. I wasn't gonna spend two hours looking for some numbers about a foreign country's registrated weapons percentage in all homicides, especially when most graphics talk about the total of murders or give or divisions when characterizing the total murder rate, to prove I'm right.

Cars kill quite effectively, as the numbers show. More effectively than firearms, in fact.

...*facepalm* I'm not sure if you understood my point, but I won't even try this time.

Anyways, already made my opinion crystal clear. I find useless the legalization of assault rifles as they bring no security for possible more insecurity, when compared to ordinary pistols and firearms.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

From the FBI, homicides in the US in '05 was ~14k, 10k involving firearms.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offens...rtable_08.html

According to a survey in '04, there are 93 firearms per 100 Americans. (Obviously that doesn't mean that 93/100 Americans own firearms).

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/...t/full/13/1/15

Lets say both figures are right, and have held basically stable until today. There are ~305M Americans.

So let's say there are .93 * 305M = 283,000,000 firearms in the US (rounding down a bit).

Let's also say that every firearm-related murder was done with a separate firearm.

10,000 firearm homicides / 283,000,000 firearms = .000035 = .0035 % of firearms were used for homicide.

Are 99.0065% of firearms being used incorrectly?