I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups

[Rhyfelwyr]

If I would have to decide who's opinion is more dangerous, yours or theirs, I would have no clear-cut answer.

This is what I've been trying to get across.

[HoreTore]

Do you not have any Hindu nationalists in your country? I have met about ten here in NZ, all angry young men whom confess a will to kill Muslims and some Christians back "home". No less of a public menace in a country with both those groups in it.
Are there only white racist groups in yor homeland?
They are about as harmful as flies, there will be no mass parades, the countries which will suffer the most from racism now, will be in the 3rd world. Like India and the Arab states, where it is way of life for some.

Nope, none of them here. All we've got are the neo-nazi's of different flavours. There are racists of every kind I'm sure, but the only ones with any organization are the neo-nazi's. They've even made political parties for themselves.

[Fragony]

This is what I've been trying to get across.

Don't pin it on me though,

What does that have to do with "Why did those dark men take mommy away?"

This is unacceptable. But these guys are such a joke and supported by so little that this is a clear case of the medicine being worse then the cure. No offense to ATPG but some people just can't help considering themselves to be the golden standard of reason, lines get blurred that way.

[Vuk]

My (serious this time :P) thoughts on what I have been reading:
First of all, hate is an emotion, and I think that it is no worse than love and in some cases cannot exist without love. Here is a question for you ATPG, who I know does not like Christianity: Is it worse to hate God or love the Devil?
I think that people should hate evil, but hate evil itself, not necessarily those who believe in it. I also think that evil is subjective in that many people have different (and oft conflicting) standards for it, though I believe that God's standard is the right one (but look how many times that has been interpreted in different ways). What you may think is good another may think is evil, and vice versa.
Hate is an emotion, and not evil. It can be felt toward good things or evil things, but by itself is not evil. If evil were not hated, it would not be opposed.
Sorry to run around like that, but my point is that you are trying to paint people as evil because they feel hate, all the while not admitting the hate you feel toward them. In other words, I think you could use a little Christian doctrine , hate the sin, love the sinner. (which isn't to say you have to carry out my experiment with them)
They are not necessarily bad people if they believe in what they think is good. After all, good is about intent. Good people do what they think is good, and if they find out they are wrong, stop. If some of them do not really believe it is good and do it only to gain power and exploit people, then I would agree with you that they are evil, and therefore hate-worthy.
I am not saying that you should hate neonazism any less, but do not confuse the message with the messenger. A dangerous person is a dangerous person though, intent aside, that I understand. If these people do become dangerous to society and attempt to infringe on the rights of others, they would need to be stopped, but that is not the same as hating them. Do you see what I mean?
I know that you did not specifically use the word evil, but I believe you were using the word hate in its place, and I wanted to illustrate the difference.


EDIT: As an example ATPG, take WWII Nazi soldiers. Sure, they may have been fighting for a cause that you and I would consider evil, but if they thought it was good, does that make them evil people? You could say "They hated Slavs and Jews though, so they had to be evil to hate their fellow men", but that does not hold up when you hate them in return. They were taught that Slavs and Jews did horrors and were as evil as we are taught they are. Sure, we may be in the right, but that does not mean that they did not believe they were, and were fighting for what they thought was the good of human kind to end misery and suffering (which was all caused by those evil Jews :P), just as you would think about fighting Nazis. Of course they were wittingly or unwittingly aiding evil, so that is regardless when considering whether you need to stop them or not. You may need to kill them because you think they are promoting evil, but that does not mean that they are evil or that they deserve hate. Rather, I would say many deserved pity.

It is a different story with modern race power groups, and I believe that many of them are just insecure, but that does not make them necassarily evil either, or worthy of hate themselves. I pity people who feel hate toward innocent people, but as long as their intent is good, I do not hate them myself.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If I would have to decide who's opinion is more dangerous, yours or theirs, I would have no clear-cut answer.

*yawn*

Yeah, those who think everyone in Africa is a lesser species than them, they aren't dangerous. On the other hand, I, a pasty white fatty who barely moves from his computer and speaks out against hatred, I'm the dangerous one. Sorry Frag, but... if you can't tell the difference between dangerous hate groups and those that wish to protect the innocent from those dangerous hate groups, then I feel sorry for you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is what I've been trying to get across.

Your defenses of neo-Nazi groups are baseless and weird, in my opinion. Possibly even dangerous.

But hey, standing up for and appeasing Nazis and being Nazi apologists never caused problems before.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is unacceptable.

How intolerant of you. Perhaps your opinions have become dangerous. I am now very very afraid of you... I'm not sure which is worse; Neo-Nazis, or you.

[Fragony]

*yawn*

Yeah, those who think everyone in Africa is a lesser species than them, they aren't dangerous. On the other hand, I, a pasty white fatty who barely moves from his computer and speaks out against hatred, I'm the dangerous one. Sorry Frag, but... if you can't tell the difference between dangerous hate groups and those that wish to protect the innocent from those dangerous hate groups, then I feel sorry for you.

Yes in my humble opinion you, or at least your idea's, are more dangerous, it's the difference between a car- and a traincrash. So someone hates blacks, what's it to me, you can hate whoever you want for whatever reason, you really want to correct that? That would be imposing, and tresspassing someone's right to believe whatever the hell he wants to believe no matter how twisted it is, what is next? What else doesn't have your aproval? I consider it to be a soft variety of fascism.

[HoreTore]

So someone hates blacks, what's it to me, you can hate whoever you want for whatever reason, you really want to correct that?

Yes. That would be called "politics". We don't want to correct it by punishment, but through debate. Our entire society is based on debating issues to find a solution, and convince others of your solution to any given problem.

So, in this case, guy A hates black people. Guy B doesn't, so he tries to convince guy A that hating black people is ridiculous. This is what's called free speech and democracy.

EDIT: Sending them to a re-education camp would be called communism, and sending them to a gas chamber would be called nazism. Not sure what "do nothing" would be called though.... Apathy perhaps?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes in my humble opinion you, or at least your idea's, are more dangerous, it's the difference between a car- and a traincrash. So someone hates blacks, what's it to me, you can hate whoever you want for whatever reason, you really want to correct that? That would be imposing, and tresspassing someone's right to believe whatever the hell he wants to believe no matter how twisted it is, what is next? What else doesn't have your aproval? I consider it to be a soft variety of fascism.

1. In my opinion your ideas are more dangerous. You know what they say about opinions...

2. So someone hates blacks, what's it to me? So someone marches around, telling people how much they hate blacks, what's it to me? So someone organizes mass demonstrations, giving powerful speeches about how horrible black people are, what's it to me? So someone uses threats and intimidation to spread fear about a race of people, what's it to me? So what if they identify themselves as Nazis, complete with swastikas (in the sense of Nazi swastikas), what's it to me? Charismatic Nazi fervor, marching through the streets, intimidating minorities; why, that never harmed anyone! Not even a LITTLE BIT!

3. "You can hate whoever you want, you really want to correct that?"

Yes. Hatred of other human beings who haven't done anything wrong, based on race, is vile and dangerous and wrong. You can get all high and mighty and say it's wrong to believe it is wrong, and I can point out the hypocrisy of telling someone it is wrong to tell someone it is wrong.

4. "That would be imposing, and tresspassing someone's right to believe whatever the hell he wants to believe no matter how twisted it is, what is next?"

Really? So, if I speak out against hate, while they are speaking the hate, I'm actually the one who is in the wrong? Sounds pretty.... twisted.... to me.

5. "What else doesn't have your aproval? I consider it to be a soft variety of fascism."

WHAT? How... how... how... how DARE you speak out against fascism. That sounds like... something judgmental to me! How dare I speak out against people who are ACTUALLY fascists and nazis. That makes me a fascist and a Nazi. Actually worse because I have reasoning behind what I am doing, and I'm not trying to exterminate, threaten, or harass them into leaving the country.

I'm such a bad sick evil person for ever saying Nazis are wrong, and those Nazis who say black people are wrong, well, they are the good people. You're right Fragony. If you weren't serious, this would make for great satire; instead, it's confusing, hypocritical, and disturbing.

Have a lovely day!

[Fragony]

WHAT? How... how... how... how DARE you speak out against fascism. That sounds like... something judgmental to me! How dare I speak out against people who are ACTUALLY fascists and nazis.

Yes, think of it, as long as they don't go beyond what is acceptable, and the 'why did the dark man take away my mommy' is unacceptable imho, that is spreading hate. I rather dislike nazi's and white-supremists they are idiots, but the thing is I like myselve more then I dislike them and I don't really feel like betraying myselve because of a bunch of racist idiots. Freedom; it isn't meant for everyone if you know what I mean and imho you are on the slippery slope not them.

I laugh in the face of White Supremacist groups

That's the thread title. But no you don't, yet you should.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes, think of it, as long as they don't go beyond what is acceptable, and the 'why did the dark man take away my mommy' is unacceptable imho, that is spreading hate.

How judgmental of you. [/sarcasm!]

I rather dislike nazi's and white-supremists they are idiots,

Really? Are they all really idiots? Even I called them ignorant... that means there is a possibility they could, you know, see the light and improve, and become regular happy well adjusted people. According to you they are mentally handicapped. How very judgmental of you. [/sarcasm!]

but the thing is I like myselve more then I dislike them

I'm happy for ya!

and I don't really feel like betraying myselve because of a bunch of racist idiots.

How very judgmental of you, calling those poor Nazis racist idiots. [/sarcasm!]

Freedom; it isn't meant for everyone if you know what I mean

Sounds awfully fascist to me.

and imho you are on the slippery slope not them.

How very judgmental of you! [/sarcasm!] I am glad you'll side with the Neo-Nazi hate groups over me.

When people talk about how awful it is to speak out against racists, and then turn around and engage in ad hominem style attacks against them, and then judge the people who say racism is wrong as being more sick and twisted than the racists themselves, for being so judgmental.... I really gotta wonder, like... where do you get this stuff? It's so hypocritical that the room is spinning.

I'm just saying, your own argument destroys itself and your credibility.

[Fragony]

I'm just saying, your own argument destroys itself and your credibility.

If you don't mind me saying you aren't your credibility's best friend in this thread.

"How very judgmental of you! I am glad you'll side with the Neo-Nazi hate groups over me. "

Sorry but why do I deserve this?

[Tribesman]

I'm just saying, your own argument destroys itself and your credibility.

Hold on there , what credibility ?
This is the bloke who claims good citizens who were caught red handed engaged in domestic terrorism and convicted of hate crimes were really innocent and only convicted because they were not immigrants .

[Vuk]

1. In my opinion your ideas are more dangerous. You know what they say about opinions...

2. So someone hates blacks, what's it to me? So someone marches around, telling people how much they hate blacks, what's it to me? So someone organizes mass demonstrations, giving powerful speeches about how horrible black people are, what's it to me? So someone uses threats and intimidation to spread fear about a race of people, what's it to me? So what if they identify themselves as Nazis, complete with swastikas (in the sense of Nazi swastikas), what's it to me? Charismatic Nazi fervor, marching through the streets, intimidating minorities; why, that never harmed anyone! Not even a LITTLE BIT!

3. "You can hate whoever you want, you really want to correct that?"

Yes. Hatred of other human beings who haven't done anything wrong, based on race, is vile and dangerous and wrong. You can get all high and mighty and say it's wrong to believe it is wrong, and I can point out the hypocrisy of telling someone it is wrong to tell someone it is wrong.

4. "That would be imposing, and tresspassing someone's right to believe whatever the hell he wants to believe no matter how twisted it is, what is next?"

Really? So, if I speak out against hate, while they are speaking the hate, I'm actually the one who is in the wrong? Sounds pretty.... twisted.... to me.

5. "What else doesn't have your aproval? I consider it to be a soft variety of fascism."

WHAT? How... how... how... how DARE you speak out against fascism. That sounds like... something judgmental to me! How dare I speak out against people who are ACTUALLY fascists and nazis. That makes me a fascist and a Nazi. Actually worse because I have reasoning behind what I am doing, and I'm not trying to exterminate, threaten, or harass them into leaving the country.

I'm such a bad sick evil person for ever saying Nazis are wrong, and those Nazis who say black people are wrong, well, they are the good people. You're right Fragony. If you weren't serious, this would make for great satire; instead, it's confusing, hypocritical, and disturbing.

Have a lovely day!

I don't think that is what he is saying ATPG. Everyone has likes and dislikes, and with everyone thinks they are superior to others in some way, and that others are inferior to them and their group in some way. This can be class, nationality, gender, race, etc.
Think of chauvinist and feminists. Many feminists think guys are barbaric, horrible, evil, inferior beings driven by instinct and devoid of heart or feeling. (that is actually how I have heard a feminist describe men) Meanwhile chauvinists think women are nothing but unfeeling, lying, cheating, evil who are good for nothing but sex. (If you think I am exaggerating, just look at some of the comments freaks make on Youtube vids, or listen to guys talking in a bar) These people both think that the other is dangerous to their group, and that their group should have superiority. Likewise with classes, lower classes think of the rich as evil and corrupt, and oppressive toward them (and they aren't far off ), meanwhile the upper-classes/upper middle classes think of the lowers classes/lower middle classes as stupid, uneducated, inferior beings, who are dangerous because they cannot think for themselves and do not know what is good for them. (don't think so? Listen to two professors talking about the "six pack Joe" watching football, or here two factory workers talking about wall street investors.) To be honest with you, I think the most and widest spread disgust and hatred I have ever witnessed has been by higher class, educated individuals about lower class, uneducated individuals.
A similar dislike and condescension exists between religious people and atheists I believe. (by both sides to be sure)
My point is that prejudices and hates at least as strong as that of race exist in common society everywhere. I do not think race is any worse than class, religious, national, or sexual hatred. All have led to abuses and deaths. Some have been stronger than others through times in history. Where I person stands on these is their problem, and you may consider them stuck up and stupid, but that is hardly a reason to hate them.
If these Aryan Nations people decide to abuse and kill people (or if they make it their agenda to do so), then that is something to take action against. It is no worse though than if someone did it for race, nationality, gender, or religion though. I don't think that any of these leads to violence or oppression more than the other. If you hate someone for racial prejudice, and want to do something about them, then you are gonna hate someone for national prejudice, or religious prejudice, or sexual prejudice, etc. You will end up hating the world. :P Hate the sin, love the sinner. I have friends who are racist. They are harmless, and do not treat people of other races poorly, but they think that they are stupid, and more instinct driven. I do not hate them for it, I instead try to use evidence to show them that they are wrong (and have succeeded with one). Likewise I know women who belong to the feminist chapter at my Uni and are always talking about female empowerment, and women taking control, blah, blah, blah. They are not harmful though, and I do not hate them for it. I do the same thing I do with racists and try to persuade them to stop being such idiots. Likewise, I know people who hate Israel and hate Israelis at least as strongly as anyone I know who hates other races. Once again with them, I do not hate them, but try persuade them.
Everyone has prejudices, but they are not violence, and they are oppression, they are just dumb. Everyone in the world has their own though, whether they will admit it or not. (I think yours is a loathing of people of faith ATPG, whether you will admit it or not ) When people commit violence and oppress people, the fault is the violence and the violence needs to be addressed. Sure, without hatred you would not have violence, but it IS there and cannot be gotten rid of I think. As long as people are rational and do not let it lead to violence or oppression, that is what matters. If you hate the sin, and not the sinner, then you will fight the sin, and not the sinner. You fight a sinner with violence, you fight a sin with words. The problem is people not paying attention to that old adage.
See what I mean?

[Fragony]

Hold on there , what credibility ?
This is the bloke who claims good citizens who were caught red handed engaged in domestic terrorism and convicted of hate crimes were really innocent and only convicted because they were not immigrants .

That one was simply way off juridically, and the judge himself said that the punishment was harsher because of just that, so end of story it happened. Almost forgot but someone keeps reminding me. Now also mention I once posted a post where I wanted to beat up muslim-rioters (5 years ago, drunk) and so we have all made a full circle and can carry on.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Your defenses of neo-Nazi groups are baseless and weird, in my opinion. Possibly even dangerous.

But hey, standing up for and appeasing Nazis and being Nazi apologists never caused problems before.

The thing is if we took a more sensible approach to racism we wouldn't need to fight it in the first place. If we didn't want racism to emerge alongsied militant fascism then we shouldn't have kicked Germany in the teeth after WWI. We would have realised that this crappy treatment is what allows such nasty ideas as racism to breed in the first place. Get the problem at the root, racism is much more than the ramblings of some hateful people. Don't fool yourself into thinking that's all it is, that is a dangerous path to take.

[Vuk]

Oh, and just so you know, one of my neighbors, used to be a racist. He and his wife were very nice, and completely harmless people. They did not act rudely to people of other races, or hurt anyone. They had a belief though that blacks were stupid and prone to violence, and that orientals were deceitfully, and that Latins were creepy. I used to think to myself when I heard them say things like that "How positively stupid", and I delibrately would bring my Korean gf over to their place for dinner. :P (no, we did not eat her :P) Long story made short, though I thought their belief was stupid, they were my good friends who I respected, they were nice people, and both of them ended up admitting that they were wrong about those beliefs. I do not think their beliefs were anymore harmful than those who look down on Christians, or muslims, or women, or men, or Americans, or Canadians. It was a stupid idea, and one they were talked out of, but it is not inherently violent. Violence is something different entirely, and needs to be dealt with for what it is: violence. The same thing goes for disturbing the peace, intimidation, etc.

I agree with you ATPG that racism is bad, but I do not think that means all racists are bad. To join an organised group like this in todays world I think means that you are a little insecure and perhaps not very smart, but I do not think it necassarily means someone is evil or deserving of hate. If they really think they are saving people, and they do not plan to use violence, intimidation, or such dirty tactics as that poster, then I see no reason to hate them.


EDIT: Another thing to think about with racists I think is this. Racism punishes itself. Violence needs to be punished so that it will not be continued, but racism does not. Punishing someone for it will just make them firmer in their beliefs. If someone wants to deprive themselves of the company and friendship of people from other races, it is their own loss, their own stupidity, and their own punishment. It hurts no one but themselves, as does the stress they put on themselves.
The problem here isn't the racism I think, but the violence, intimidation, and harmful posters. They could wrap it in nationalism, relgious hate, gender hate, whatever, that is just the frosting.

[HoreTore]

The thing is if we took a more sensible approach to racism we wouldn't need to fight it in the first place. If we didn't want racism to emerge alongsied militant fascism then we shouldn't have kicked Germany in the teeth after WWI. We would have realised that this crappy treatment is what allows such nasty ideas as racism to breed in the first place. Get the problem at the root, racism is much more than the ramblings of some hateful people. Don't fool yourself into thinking that's all it is, that is a dangerous path to take.

That germany was treated badly in the peace settlement after WW1 is probably the greatest myth ever.

[Vuk]

That germany was treated badly in the peace settlement after WW1 is probably the greatest myth ever.

lol, care to explain that? Germany was treated very poorly. The main wound they inflicted on Germany which is what enabled Hitler to preach his nationalist message was the taking of land from Germany. If they were not punished with that, then WWII would never have happened, and Hitler would never have come to power, and the Holocaust would never have happened. Our President tried to warn the French, but they did not listen. If people had listened to the US then, there would have been no WWII. :P (sorry, I had to put a nationalist spin on it for HoreTore's sake )

[Fragony]

Not sure what "do nothing" would be called though.... Apathy perhaps?

Just letting be? Things go best when you do nothing, then you aren't making a point out of anything, why the haste.

edit: Good post Vuk.

[HoreTore]

lol, care to explain that? Germany was treated very poorly. The main wound they inflicted on Germany which is what enabled Hitler to preach his nationalist message was the taking of land from Germany. If they were not punished with that, then WWII would never have happened, and Hitler would never have come to power, and the Holocaust would never have happened. Our President tried to warn the French, but they did not listen. If people had listened to the US then, there would have been no WWII. :P (sorry, I had to put a nationalist spin on it for HoreTore's sake )

I give that a great, big.....

BAH!

The land Germany ceded to France after WWI was the very land France ceded to Germany 30 years before, in the Franco-Prussian war. It wasn't punishment, it was taking back what was rightfully theirs.

What enabled Hitler's rise was good old nationalism. Germany's war-veterans just could not come to terms with the fact that they were beaten. They were the greatest people on the planet, their army the greatest one. Surely they couldn't be responsible for this? There must've been someone else who threw spanners in the works of the german military machine. But who could it be.... hmmm.... IT MUST'VE BEEN DEM JEWS!!

Hitler spoke to the pride of Germany's war veterans. He told them that they weren't responsible for their defeat. Germany was still the mightiest nation on earth. The reason Germany lost was because of weaklings and cowards, communist and jewish infiltrators who sold Germany to the allies.

It wasn't the peace terms who created the holocaust. German pride and nationalism created the holocaust. Nothing else.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No, you are saying racism is not to be blamed on factors such as poverty, ignorance, social factors etc, instead you just think it is because people are hateful.

As an aside, what is the use of making excuses for behavior like this, however true it is? Everything can be blamed on factors such as poverty, ignorance, social upbringing etc...but if you give people a pass an don't act like they are responsible for them selves then you are denying their humanity.

[Fragony]

IT MUST'VE BEEN DEM JEWS!!

No of course not we call them bankiers/capitalists nowadays.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you don't mind me saying you aren't your credibility's best friend in this thread.

"How very judgmental of you! I am glad you'll side with the Neo-Nazi hate groups over me. "

Sorry but why do I deserve this?

Here:

Yes in my humble opinion you, or at least your idea's, are more dangerous, it's the difference between a car- and a traincrash. So someone hates blacks, what's it to me, you can hate whoever you want for whatever reason, you really want to correct that? That would be imposing, and tresspassing someone's right to believe whatever the hell he wants to believe no matter how twisted it is, what is next? What else doesn't have your aproval? I consider it to be a soft variety of fascism.

You really have no idea why that is siding with Nazis over me? And if you don't mind me saying you aren't your credibility's best friend in this thread.

I don't think that is what he is saying ATPG. Everyone has likes and dislikes, and with everyone thinks they are superior to others in some way, and that others are inferior to them and their group in some way. This can be class, nationality, gender, race, etc.

Yes, everyone is as hateful as Neo-Nazis. And it's not hate, it's just dislike. Marginal dislike, really. Actually, Nazis love everyone.

Think of chauvinist and feminists. Many feminists think guys are barbaric, horrible, evil, inferior beings driven by instinct and devoid of heart or feeling. (that is actually how I have heard a feminist describe men) Meanwhile chauvinists think women are nothing but unfeeling, lying, cheating, evil who are good for nothing but sex.

Yes, but do chauvanists and feminists call for the harassment of men and women, spread pamphlets around describing how men and women aren't really people, march in mass demonstrations against men and women, threaten and intimidate women, and call for them to be segregated?

Not a good comparison.

These people both think that the other is dangerous to their group, and that their group should have superiority.

Feminists want equality, last I heard.

Likewise with classes, lower classes think of the rich as evil and corrupt,

Stereotyping.

and oppressive toward them (and they aren't far off ),

Judgmental.

meanwhile the upper-classes/upper middle classes think of the lowers classes/lower middle classes as stupid, uneducated, inferior beings,

Stereotyping.

who are dangerous because they cannot think for themselves and do not know what is good for them. (don't think so? Listen to two professors talking about the "six pack Joe" watching football, or here two factory workers talking about wall street investors.)

Stereotyping.

To be honest with you, I think the most and widest spread disgust and hatred I have ever witnessed has been by higher class, educated individuals about lower class, uneducated individuals.

So are they all this way? Stereotyping.

A similar dislike and condescension exists between religious people and atheists I believe. (by both sides to be sure)

Not by all of them. Stereotyping.

My point is that prejudices and hates at least as strong as that of race exist in common society everywhere.

Not everywhere. And you're whitewashing Nazism with sexual revolution; a poor argument at best.

I do not think race is any worse than class, religious, national, or sexual hatred.

All hate is wrong.

All have led to abuses and deaths. Some have been stronger than others through times in history. Where I person stands on these is their problem, and you may consider them stuck up and stupid, but that is hardly a reason to hate them.

Agreed.

If these Aryan Nations people decide to abuse and kill people (or if they make it their agenda to do so), then that is something to take action against.

The vile propaganda, mass demonstrations based on hate, verbal abuse, and slander that they engage in is a form of abuse, and if there were enough Nazis in power, what would they do? Segregate. Deport. Round up and do nasty things to them, as is their stated goal. That's what makes them... Nazis.

It is no worse though than if someone did it for race, nationality, gender, or religion though. I don't think that any of these leads to violence or oppression more than the other.

Is your entire argument based on the premise; since I am not also attacking sexists at this very moment, I must have nothing relevant to say? I am confused by what your point is.

If you hate someone for racial prejudice, and want to do something about them, then you are gonna hate someone for national prejudice, or religious prejudice, or sexual prejudice, etc. You will end up hating the world. :P

Pardon? What the heck are you talking about? I never said I hated; I said I opposed them. Please, don't strawman me. I've been chided for strawman-ing someone here, don't do the same.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

I am not required to love Nazis, but I don't hate them. I hate what they stand for. If they renounce their ideology of hate, I'd be fine. I hate hatred itself. Which is kind of what you're asking me to do.... so it's pretty redundant. I still fail to see what your point is.

I have friends who are racist.

You have friends who would march in Klan rallies or Nazi rallies and spread vile propaganda about how evil the "dark men" are? Shameful.

There is a difference between people who have quiet distrusting feelings towards black people, and those who would march in Klan rallies. It's a matter of degree..... Nazis are hateful to an unhealthy and destructive degree, because they aren't just distrusting of black people, they think they are a lower species. Which is utterly atrocious and offensive nonsense.

They are harmless, and do not treat people of other races poorly, but they think that they are stupid, and more instinct driven.

That's pretty shoddy treatment to write off an entire race as stupid, instinct-driven animals.

I do not hate them for it, I instead try to use evidence to show them that they are wrong (and have succeeded with one).

The evidence is out there. It's not hard to find. People at this stage of the game who still are racist need to get themselves educated. I'll show them the information if they ask for it, but it's such basic stuff that it shouldn't even be necessary to qualify my argument against racists with evidence that races are not all a certain way, or different species. Just like in an argument about physics, one does not necessarily need to re-state the fundamentals of physics in every sentence, or even at all. It's implied that it is understood if you're talking about physics.

If someone is a racist who simply is uneducated, get educated before you open your mouth, I say. Everyone else is a hateful bigot because they should know better.

Likewise I know women who belong to the feminist chapter at my Uni and are always talking about female empowerment, and women taking control, blah, blah, blah.

Really? They seek to establish a collective female order which dominates men? Sounds kind of sexy, actually.

A fringe lunatic or two does not tear down the philosophy of female equality (feminism). What you're talking about is an entirely different concept, which involves female superiority (sexism). Do not equate the two, they are not the same.

They are not harmful though, and I do not hate them for it.

Good. Anecdotal evidence about non-sexists does not make one bit of difference in a discussion involving Nazis, racists, and other forms of intolerant hateful bigotry, and even if it was on-topic, anecdotal evidence does not a logical argument make.

I do the same thing I do with racists and try to persuade them to stop being such idiots.

How condescending and judgmental to call them idiots.

Likewise, I know people who hate Israel and hate Israelis at least as strongly as anyone I know who hates other races.

Israel is not a race. Israel is a country comprised of a large minority population of Arabs living in relative peace and harmony with a Jewish population. Your comparison is flawed.

Once again with them, I do not hate them, but try persuade them.

No comment.

Everyone has prejudices, but they are not violence, and they are oppression, they are just dumb.

You are whitewashing the oppression of racist hate groups like Nazis with the rest of humanity and saying it is all the same, and it is all based on being stupid.

Nazis consider non-whites to be trash and not human beings. It's possible that the rest of us non-Nazis DON'T think that way. Don't compare the rest of us to Nazis and say it is all the same. You're dead wrong because it isn't the same. No threats of violence, no hate, no intimidation, no rounding up, no deportation, no concentration camp, no lies and propaganda, no effort to reduce their rightful liberties.

Stop comparing us to Nazis. There is a difference between nazis and the rest of humanity: One is a group dedicated to wiping out or suppressing other human beings, and not all of us are like that. Stop whitewashing Nazism as being "just another prejudice based on stupidity". It is a dangerous and violent, hateful ideology bent on reducing the freedoms, equality, and liberties of decent people in this world. It must be tolerated as long as these things remain thoughts, but threats, intimidation, slander, and violence, which these groups always engage in, must never be tolerated, and all hate groups should be monitored as potential threats, because their stated purpose is to threaten. Period.

I think yours is a loathing of people of faith ATPG, whether you will admit it or not

If I loathe people of faith, why do I insist on speaking to them as equals and trying to convince them using reason, debate, and examples why faith can be dangerous, just as hate can be? Whether you admit it or not, you've grossly misrepresented me, Nazism, feminism, and the rest of humanity here. Is that based on loathing, or should I give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's based on bad information, not "being an idiot" which I don't think you are, but you seem to think that's what explains societies' ills.

When people commit violence and oppress people, the fault is the violence and the violence needs to be addressed.

When people commit violence, it is not the people's fault... it is the violence's fault?

Sure, without hatred you would not have violence

I accept this as a concession of the entire argument.

but it IS there and cannot be gotten rid of I think.

You cannot get rid of hatred and violence but within your own heart, and try to convince others to do the same. So yes, you can get rid of violence and hate. But we all must do it voluntarily.

Saying it isn't possible; that's your opinion and it's also not accurate. It is possible to let go of hatred and violence. Many people have.

As long as people are rational and do not let it lead to violence or oppression, that is what matters.

Is prejudice rational? Is racism rational? For that matter, you and others have argued it is OK to ignore rationalism, because embracing faith in something means rejecting or considering inferior rational argument, and embracing willfully that which cannot be proven, and accepting it as fact when it is not. That's not rational, but you advocate that. Accepting as fact that black people are a lower species, that also is irrational and requires the mind to be ignorant of the vast body of evidence accumulated to date which proves otherwise, intentional or unintentional. When a group advocates fear and intolerance of another, that is but the first step in oppression.

If you hate the sin, and not the sinner, then you will fight the sin, and not the sinner.

You're preaching to the choir, but it is you who passed them off as being too dumb and stupid to get better. I advocated that they grow up and let prejudice go; it is you who are attacking "the sinners" themselves as being dumb and stupid. I am saying they can get better. I am asking them to get better. I am asking them to get educated and stop hating people without good reason. You're saying "oh they are just dumb".

You fight a sinner with violence, you fight a sin with words.

My attempts to fight the sin of hatred and bigotry here with words have been called judgmental (hilariously, by people judging me as being worse than Nazis) and intolerant (hilariously, by people who think that we shouldn't tolerate someone not tolerant of intolerance) and dangerous (hilariously, by people who are defending and appeasing Nazis).

I don't know what your point is, but it's aimed at the wrong person.

The problem is people not paying attention to that old adage.

If you say so.

See what I mean?

Not in the slightest. I strongly disagree with everything you've said here, barring one or two sentences. But see, in spite of your arguments, I don't hate you or think you inferior to me in any way. I can disagree with you and still be your friend.

I wish you'd kindly retract the part about loathing people of faith; I don't. I have a great many on my friends list, thank you. I've dated and loved people of faith; born to faithful parents. I don't have faith because I consider it to be illogical and dangerous, and I oppose faith, but I don't hate people of faith.

Please tell me you see the difference. I oppose the actions and ideologies of people who are racist, because I oppose racism and I think it's even more dangerous. But I don't hate them, Please tell me you see the difference. Please don't pass off racism as "stupid people" because stupid people don't rally entire nations to their cause and nearly wipe out the Allies under their leadership in World War II.
Intelligent people can become racists too, and that's just as dangerous if not more, and it is NOT a harmless thing to be ignored.

The thing is if we took a more sensible approach to racism we wouldn't need to fight it in the first place.

Yes, it is our fault racism exists, not the fault of people who choose to be racist.

If we didn't want racism to emerge alongsied militant fascism then we shouldn't have kicked Germany in the teeth after WWI.

German Anti-semitism did NOT start after World War I. It's been around a very long time. so it did not emerge then. And the militant fascism was BASED on that racism and nationalism, both of which have been around since before WWI, and they are both dangerous and destructive.

We would have realised that this crappy treatment

You know, crazy thought, maybe Germany shouldn't have started a war against peaceful countries and engaged in chemical warfare. I consider that to be crappy treatment.

s what allows such nasty ideas as racism to breed in the first place.

Blaming the victim will get you nowhere.

Get the problem at the root, racism is much more than the ramblings of some hateful people.

I never dismissed it as stupidity or mindless ramblings. I take it VERY seriously, more than you guys do apparently. I consider it to be very dangerous and wrong.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that's all it is, that is a dangerous path to take.

Don't blame the victims, don't appease the Nazis, don't write it off as stupidity, don't ignore it, and don't say it's genetic or environmental and there's no free will involved. That is a much much much more dangerous path to take.







You guys are wrong, wrong I tells ya.

Let's take a voluntary break from this debate. You're missing my points, and I feel that yours are based on bad assumptions and self-defeating logic. As such, you probably feel the same way, and we won't make any progress today.

[Askthepizzaguy]

As an aside, what is the use of making excuses for behavior like this, however true it is? Everything can be blamed on factors such as poverty, ignorance, social upbringing etc...but if you give people a pass an don't act like they are responsible for them selves then you are denying their humanity.

I am delighted to know that I am not arguing alone. Thank you Sasaki and HoreTore.

[Vuk]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here:



You really have no idea why that is siding with Nazis over me? And if you don't mind me saying you aren't your credibility's best friend in this thread.





Yes, everyone is as hateful as Neo-Nazis. And it's not hate, it's just dislike. Marginal dislike, really. Actually, Nazis love everyone.



Yes, but do chauvanists and feminists call for the harassment of men and women, spread pamphlets around describing how men and women aren't really people, march in mass demonstrations against men and women, threaten and intimidate women, and call for them to be segregated?

Not a good comparison.




Feminists want equality, last I heard.



Stereotyping.



Judgmental.



Stereotyping.



Stereotyping.



So are they all this way? Stereotyping.



Not by all of them. Stereotyping.



Not everywhere. And you're whitewashing Nazism with sexual revolution; a poor argument at best.



All hate is wrong.



Agreed.



The vile propaganda, mass demonstrations based on hate, verbal abuse, and slander that they engage in is a form of abuse, and if there were enough Nazis in power, what would they do? Segregate. Deport. Round up and do nasty things to them, as is their stated goal. That's what makes them... Nazis.



Is your entire argument based on the premise; since I am not also attacking sexists at this very moment, I must have nothing relevant to say? I am confused by what your point is.



Pardon? What the heck are you talking about? I never said I hated; I said I opposed them. Please, don't strawman me. I've been chided for strawman-ing someone here, don't do the same.



I am not required to love Nazis, but I don't hate them. I hate what they stand for. If they renounce their ideology of hate, I'd be fine. I hate hatred itself. Which is kind of what you're asking me to do.... so it's pretty redundant. I still fail to see what your point is.



You have friends who would march in Klan rallies or Nazi rallies and spread vile propaganda about how evil the "dark men" are? Shameful.

There is a difference between people who have quiet distrusting feelings towards black people, and those who would march in Klan rallies. It's a matter of degree..... Nazis are hateful to an unhealthy and destructive degree, because they aren't just distrusting of black people, they think they are a lower species. Which is utterly atrocious and offensive nonsense.



That's pretty shoddy treatment to write off an entire race as stupid, instinct-driven animals.



The evidence is out there. It's not hard to find. People at this stage of the game who still are racist need to get themselves educated. I'll show them the information if they ask for it, but it's such basic stuff that it shouldn't even be necessary to qualify my argument against racists with evidence that races are not all a certain way, or different species. Just like in an argument about physics, one does not necessarily need to re-state the fundamentals of physics in every sentence, or even at all. It's implied that it is understood if you're talking about physics.

If someone is a racist who simply is uneducated, get educated before you open your mouth, I say. Everyone else is a hateful bigot because they should know better.



Really? They seek to establish a collective female order which dominates men? Sounds kind of sexy, actually.

A fringe lunatic or two does not tear down the philosophy of female equality (feminism). What you're talking about is an entirely different concept, which involves female superiority (sexism). Do not equate the two, they are not the same.



Good. Anecdotal evidence about non-sexists does not make one bit of difference in a discussion involving Nazis, racists, and other forms of intolerant hateful bigotry, and even if it was on-topic, anecdotal evidence does not a logical argument make.


How condescending and judgmental to call them idiots.



Israel is not a race. Israel is a country comprised of a large minority population of Arabs living in relative peace and harmony with a Jewish population. Your comparison is flawed.



No comment.


You are whitewashing the oppression of racist hate groups like Nazis with the rest of humanity and saying it is all the same, and it is all based on being stupid.

1. Nazis consider non-whites to be trash and not human beings. It's possible that the rest of us non-Nazis DON'T think that way. Don't compare the rest of us to Nazis and say it is all the same. You're dead wrong because it isn't the same. No threats of violence, no hate, no intimidation, no rounding up, no deportation, no concentration camp, no lies and propaganda, no effort to reduce their rightful liberties.

Stop comparing us to Nazis. There is a difference between nazis and the rest of humanity: One is a group dedicated to wiping out or suppressing other human beings, and not all of us are like that. Stop whitewashing Nazism as being "just another prejudice based on stupidity". It is a dangerous and violent, hateful ideology bent on reducing the freedoms, equality, and liberties of decent people in this world. It must be tolerated as long as these things remain thoughts, but threats, intimidation, slander, and violence, which these groups always engage in, must never be tolerated, and all hate groups should be monitored as potential threats, because their stated purpose is to threaten. Period.



If I loathe people of faith, why do I insist on speaking to them as equals and trying to convince them using reason, debate, and examples why faith can be dangerous, just as hate can be? Whether you admit it or not, you've grossly misrepresented me, Nazism, feminism, and the rest of humanity here. Is that based on loathing, or should I give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's based on bad information, not "being an idiot" which I don't think you are, but you seem to think that's what explains societies' ills.



When people commit violence, it is not the people's fault... it is the violence's fault?



I accept this as a concession of the entire argument.



You cannot get rid of hatred and violence but within your own heart, and try to convince others to do the same. So yes, you can get rid of violence and hate. But we all must do it voluntarily.

Saying it isn't possible; that's your opinion and it's also not accurate. It is possible to let go of hatred and violence. Many people have.


Is prejudice rational? Is racism rational? For that matter, you and others have argued it is OK to ignore rationalism, because embracing faith in something means rejecting or considering inferior rational argument, and embracing willfully that which cannot be proven, and accepting it as fact when it is not. That's not rational, but you advocate that. Accepting as fact that black people are a lower species, that also is irrational and requires the mind to be ignorant of the vast body of evidence accumulated to date which proves otherwise, intentional or unintentional. When a group advocates fear and intolerance of another, that is but the first step in oppression.


You're preaching to the choir, but it is you who passed them off as being too dumb and stupid to get better. I advocated that they grow up and let prejudice go; it is you who are attacking "the sinners" themselves as being dumb and stupid. I am saying they can get better. I am asking them to get better. I am asking them to get educated and stop hating people without good reason. You're saying "oh they are just dumb".



My attempts to fight the sin of hatred and bigotry here with words have been called judgmental (hilariously, by people judging me as being worse than Nazis) and intolerant (hilariously, by people who think that we shouldn't tolerate someone not tolerant of intolerance) and dangerous (hilariously, by people who are defending and appeasing Nazis).

I don't know what your point is, but it's aimed at the wrong person.



If you say so.



Not in the slightest. I strongly disagree with everything you've said here, barring one or two sentences. But see, in spite of your arguments, I don't hate you or think you inferior to me in any way. I can disagree with you and still be your friend.

I wish you'd kindly retract the part about loathing people of faith; I don't. I have a great many on my friends list, thank you. I've dated and loved people of faith; born to faithful parents. I don't have faith because I consider it to be illogical and dangerous, and I oppose faith, but I don't hate people of faith.

Please tell me you see the difference. I oppose the actions and ideologies of people who are racist, because I oppose racism and I think it's even more dangerous. But I don't hate them, Please tell me you see the difference. Please don't pass off racism as "stupid people" because stupid people don't rally entire nations to their cause and nearly wipe out the Allies under their leadership in World War II.
Intelligent people can become racists too, and that's just as dangerous if not more, and it is NOT a harmless thing to be ignored.



Yes, it is our fault racism exists, not the fault of people who choose to be racist.

If we didn't want racism to emerge alongsied militant fascism then we shouldn't have kicked Germany in the teeth after WWI.

German Anti-semitism did NOT start after World War I. It's been around a very long time. so it did not emerge then. And the militant fascism was BASED on that racism and nationalism, both of which have been around since before WWI, and they are both dangerous and destructive.



You know, crazy thought, maybe Germany shouldn't have started a war against peaceful countries and engaged in chemical warfare. I consider that to be crappy treatment.



Blaming the victim will get you nowhere.


I never dismissed it as stupidity or mindless ramblings. I take it VERY seriously, more than you guys do apparently. I consider it to be very dangerous and wrong.



Don't blame the victims, don't appease the Nazis, don't write it off as stupidity, don't ignore it, and don't say it's genetic or environmental and there's no free will involved. That is a much much much more dangerous path to take.







You guys are wrong, wrong I tells ya.

Let's take a voluntary break from this debate. You're missing my points, and I feel that yours are based on bad assumptions and self-defeating logic. As such, you probably feel the same way, and we won't make any progress today.[/QUOTE]

I think you are quite misunderstanding me, my argument, my reasoning, and my audience ATPG, and I really want to respond to this, but I got class now, and I do not get out until 10 at night, at which time I go to bed. If I do not answer it late tonight, I will have to wait till tomorrow. (it would probably be smarter to wait untill tomorrow :P)

[Fragony]

You really have no idea why that is siding with Nazis over me? And if you don't mind me saying you aren't your credibility's best friend in this thread.

Excuse me? Not going to let you of with this one, explain, right now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You really have no idea why that is siding with Nazis over me? And if you don't mind me saying you aren't your credibility's best friend in this thread.

Excuse me? Not going to let you of with this one, explain, right now.

Already explained with evidence; i.e. your own words.



Taking a break from the discussion.

[Rhyfelwyr]

As an aside, what is the use of making excuses for behavior like this, however true it is? Everything can be blamed on factors such as poverty, ignorance, social upbringing etc...but if you give people a pass an don't act like they are responsible for them selves then you are denying their humanity.

I am a bit of a liberal lefty sometimes am I not?

In the UK, people on the left now treat poverty as a social problem, they don't blame the poor on their condition. Is it possible to work your way out of poverty?... yes, but not everyone will make it. Conservatives say blabla its up to the individual. They say we deny people their humanity... but really we do not, we are simply pointing out patterns on the larger social scale, much as Vuk did before ATPG dismissed everything as a stereotype.

Even though the Nazi's deservedly take the blame for the horrors their regime carried out, that does not mean that we (the victors from WWI) could have prevented such people from getting into power in the first place. We could have said "hmm, maybe treating a country like when really WWI was an inevitable conflict of equally nasty imperial powers will cause militant fascism to develop", instead they just went ahead and tried to cripple the nation.

Obviosuly there were longer term factors which shaped the development of Nazism, but really Nazism was just Germany's regional variation of fascism. Imperial Japan wasn't a much nicer country at the time.

So, I think it is time we stepped of the soapbox and started treating racism with the same reasonable approach many, mostly on the left, take towards poverty nowadays.