So, we need more gay people to have kids...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I agree, fully.

Test is clearly not "fair" as the playing field is not fair. I might, however, stress one point. And this is an important one! It is not fair, because... think about it... Gay people need to do a logical decision and as well work towards getting children, whereas heterosexuals can dumbfundle in the backseat and get the same result.

As you see, the playing field is not equal, nor will it ever be. So to disregard this research because of it, seems rather unfair.(

Your point only holds up in a promiscuous society, because if two people determine to remain celebate until marriage they are as unlikely to concieve by accident as a homosexual couple.

So I could take your research and declare that it proves our lax sexual morality is hurting our children; which we all knew anyway.

[Kadagar_AV]

Your point only holds up in a promiscuous society, because if two people determine to remain celebate until marriage they are as unlikely to concieve by accident as a homosexual couple.

So I could take your research and declare that it proves our lax sexual morality is hurting our children; which we all knew anyway.

I agree, that is why atheism should spread more, so we get more people taking responsibility.

Or were you one of those Christians holding on to that silly belief that christianity has a somewhat good impact on sexual morals? I am just joking of course, I am sure you are an educated man and well read up (you are aware of, say, teenage pregnancy rates among Christians compared to atheists?).

But maybe we should leave religion out of this, to not turn it into a flame fest.



So what was your point, to make it clear, mate?

You want us all to live in celibacy until marriage, and gays not to have kids, unless they marry (which they should not be allowed to do? Kind of a catch 22 you got going for you there. Or?)

Anyway, you might want to elaborate on your point, I am afraid I didn't quite get your views on homosexuality and children.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Your point only holds up in a promiscuous society, because if two people determine to remain celebate until marriage they are as unlikely to concieve by accident as a homosexual couple.

So I could take your research and declare that it proves our lax sexual morality is hurting our children; which we all knew anyway.

You couldn't prove that either. People tend to over-ascribe explanative power to survey instruments and correlational studies. They are useful tools but have their limitations. It is feasible to pound in a nail with a shovel -- but you're much more likely to screw it up instead. Try a hammer. Each tool has its place in the kit.

Kad:

It does NOT automatically mean that the archaic or strict moralist positions are wrong (though I believe they are). It does SUGGEST that such positions, on this issue, aren't accurate and sets up the basis for a study that COULD give you the proof you seek. TinCow is very much correct about the kind of setup that would be needed to make that claim.

Frags:

Didn't see your post. I'm disinclined to award stars or balloons simply because someone agrees with me (unless you also thereby DISagree with Banquo or CA -- I'll give you a star just for tweaking them a touch....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Teh gays can do what they want in their own private sphere, I'm not so sure I like children being brought into it. Because as you all know, the nuclear family has existed throughout all of human history.

tbh, my only argument is that it just doesn't seem right. Certainly, I'm sure many homosexual couples would do a better job that these chavs that churn out babies to live off the benefits, but I still think there's no substitute for the traditional nuclear family. Not that I'm one of these crazy pro-family people either, ideas like family holidays etc really creep me out, seems like a little cult or something.

Also, I suspect that homophobia may be a perfectly natural reaction, wheras toleration is more something that has to be socially engineered. This is based of the purely anecdotal evidence that the more 'uneducated' people I know are very much homophobic (whether religious or not), but in the more educated environment of university, you would get castrated for saying anything remotely homophobic. But it makes sense really, it's natural to not like what's different, hence homophobia is natural.

[Kadagar_AV]

Oh my, where to begin with this one.

Teh gays can do what they want in their own private sphere

... but they should not be allowed to show their love to the world? You, for some reason, think you have a say in who people love and not? What would give you this right, I might ask?

I'm not so sure I like children being brought into it. Because as you all know, the nuclear family has existed throughout all of human history.

Source? Gay relationships has been very highly esteemed in some time periods. And your comment about bringing children into "it" is just tasteless, borderline hateful. You think gay children will have gay kids, or what? That they will somehow make them gay?

tbh, my only argument is that it just doesn't seem right.

That does indeed seem to be your only argument, and a tasteless one at that.

Certainly, I'm sure many homosexual couples would do a better job that these chavs that churn out babies to live off the benefits, but I still think there's no substitute for the traditional nuclear family.

So how about adoption? Better a child starve to death than being adopted by "Teh Gays"? And by the way, the research I posted clearly shows that there is a substitute to the nuclear family that seems to be working, so what was your point again?

Not that I'm one of these crazy pro-family people either, ideas like family holidays etc really creep me out, seems like a little cult or something.

It is hard for me to reply to this. Forum guidelines clearly dictate that I should attack your statement, not you as a person. But when you as a statement bring in craziness in relation to yourself those guidelines seem to be very grey of colour indeed. I think I will just leave it.

Also, I suspect that homophobia may be a perfectly natural reaction, wheras toleration is more something that has to be socially engineered. This is based of the purely anecdotal evidence that the more 'uneducated' people I know are very much homophobic (whether religious or not), but in the more educated environment of university, you would get castrated for saying anything remotely homophobic. But it makes sense really, it's natural to not like what's different, hence homophobia is natural

I dont quite get you here?

This means that you are aware that homophobia is more common among religious people and [removed] less educated persons, or did I misread you?

[Rhyfelwyr]

... but they should not be allowed to show their love to the world? You, for some reason, think you have a say in who people love and not? What would give you this right, I might ask?

Eh? I'm a libertarian, they can do whatever they like.

Source? Gay relationships has been very highly esteemed in some time periods. And your comment about bringing children into "it" is just tasteless, borderline hateful. You think gay children will have gay kids, or what? That they will somehow make them gay?

I was joking with the nuclear family bit, which I think was obvious, I know it only really developed from the 17th century, for economic reasons more than anything else. And I'm not sure what you think I am saying with bringing children into "it", I simply am simply questioning how ideal it is for a child to be brought up by two parents of the same sex. Single mums for example tend to say how they wish their children could have a male rolemodel.

That does indeed seem to be your only argument, and a tasteless one at that.

Oh don't give me that "tasteless" moral outrage crap, I thought given the fact you were willing to step out of the box a bit on issues with race etc might at least have meant you would spare me that.

So how about adoption? Better a child starve to death than being adopted by "Teh Gays"? And by the way, the research I posted clearly shows that there is a substitute to the nuclear family that seems to be working, so what was your point again?

Seems like you're trying to put words in my mouth, as I said many homosexual couples do a better job than their straight counterparts. I just think that the old nuclear family is the best when both parents are functioning properly. Would you get so mad if I said being raised by your grandparents isn't so ideal? Or a nanny if your parents are always at work or whatever?

It is hard for me to reply to this. Forum guidelines clearly dictate that I should attack your statement, not you as a person. But when you as a statement bring in craziness in relation to yourself those guidelines seem to be very grey of colour indeed. I think I will just leave it.

Well it's not really relevant to the thread but that's just what I think, I'm a very paranoid person when it comes to being made to conform etc. You really telling me some of these happy-clappy do-everything-together families aren't creepy as hell. It's just because they often tend to be evangelical, and I was arguing for the nuclear family, I thought you might think I was one of those nutters. I'm just a different kind of nutter.

I dont quite get you here?

This means that you are aware that homophobia is more common among religious people and less educated persons, or did I misread you?

Indeed it is. People seem to be naturally homophobic before it is educated out of them. Religious is not a factor, education (class even?) seems to be the key. All working-class people I know (the kind of people where I live) are homophobic, whereas people at private school I went to for a while, and university, are definitely not.

[Kadagar_AV]

said stuff

I think what got me started was the mentioning of them being "allowed" to do it in their private sphere. Does not sound very libertarian to me.

With that said, I do see your point. I do not accept some of your points (or even like them), however, the points were we disagree seem to be more about world view than anything else, thus a further debate between us seems kind of pointless.

Don't get me wrong, I know you are quite reasonable really. I also respect a lot of what you say. Just that our world views are so different that we wont solve this topic without going hideously off topic first ;)

So let us postpone this debate until later, when we sorted some other stuff (like my depraved life leading straight to hell and your anal-retentive religious views) *note, said with a BIG smiley*

PS: I much liked your second post. I can see quite a difference between that and some early posts you did. Is HoreTore holding a gun to your head? ;)

[Louis VI the Fat]

These children actually came out with, in average, BETTER results compared to children from heterosexual homes.

Must be rubbish being a redneck or American Taliban now, no? ;)

Lesbians make great parents.

Me, I think a lot of children would be better off without a father. Many fathers destabilise families by being a nasty brute. Many more are present but absent. Two mothers would be a blessing for many a family.



As for the Taliban a state has little say over two lesbians getting pregnant. A state can, however, prevent adoption by a homosexual couple. Guess what? Several American states pioneered it, legalising gay adoption well before - yes, I'm afraid I'm doing it again - Sweden did. Also, going by state populations on either side of the Atlantic that allow adoption, as of yet, a larger percentage of American than European gays are allowed to adopt. The score is Redneck Taliban - Europeans 2-1.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gay adoption was pioneered in several US states in the 1990s. Following their example, several European states followed suit. For example Sweden, which overcame its Redneck Taliban opposition in 2002. No European state has allowed it for more than a decade.


The liberal European Northwest allows gay adoption, together with Spain, which saw some surprisingly liberal legislation passed this last decade:





In America, gay adoption is allowed in the liberal Westcoast, Midwest, Northeast. And in most of those provinces north of the US border, what's it called again :



Purple: gay adoption allowed
Pink: somewhat
Grey: not allowed
Red: prohibited by law


Taking population distribution in account, it looks like a much larger percentage of American than EU gays can adopt.

Which means Europe is lagging! The theocracies of Italy, Poland and Ireland won't allow it anytime soon. The East and Southeast won't either. But I am very disappointed in central Europe.

[Vladimir]

Lesbians...

Oh snap!

Another victory for the French.

[Kadagar_AV]

Louis, first of all, I am way more European than Swedish. So the Swedish punches really does not distract me much.

Yes some states in the US were ahead of Sweden in acknowledging gay adoption, on paper. Would you have been spent some time in Sweden in the earlier years though, you would have seen that gay people still could adopt from the 60's or so. Official law and unofficial law is not always the same, as you well know. The Swedish gay movement was more about having the official ability than the actual ability. There is some state in the US that STILL has the law dictating that a man must walk in front of the car waving a red flag if a woman drives. That does not however mean I flame America about it, as the law is obsolete and just happen to have stayed intact as it doesnt hurt anyone, get the point?

And I am not saying that Sweden is some perfect country, mind you, there are reason why I do not live there!


History aside.

Let us forget about the past, and look at Sweden NOW, compared to the US now... Gay people in Sweden can adopt, get married, serve openly in the army.... In how many US states is that ok, dude?

Touché mon ami :)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I agree, that is why atheism should spread more, so we get more people taking responsibility.

My experience is that taking responsibility is more a matter of character than belief.

Or were you one of those Christians holding on to that silly belief that christianity has a somewhat good impact on sexual morals? I am just joking of course, I am sure you are an educated man and well read up (you are aware of, say, teenage pregnancy rates among Christians compared to atheists?).

Sincere Christian morality does have a good impact on sexual morality, insincere mouthing of society's mores does not. I am aware of the statistical reality in America, but I am also aware that it is a particularly American phenomenon, not repeated to the same degree elsewhere in the developed world.

Did you know that most teenage pregnancies in Britain are poor people?

But maybe we should leave religion out of this, to not turn it into a flame fest.

Maybe we should, but you brought it up.

So what was your point, to make it clear, mate?

You want us all to live in celibacy until marriage, and gays not to have kids, unless they marry (which they should not be allowed to do? Kind of a catch 22 you got going for you there. Or?)

Anyway, you might want to elaborate on your point, I am afraid I didn't quite get your views on homosexuality and children.

My point was very simple: This data can be used to support a variety of conclusions, only one of which supports homosexual parents over heterosexuals. What if I were to produce a data set demonstrating that parents who remained abstinant produced better children than those who jumped into bed with anything that moved?

At the end of the day, if you don't have sex you can't get pregnant. So if you have sex and get pregnant don't come crying to me, or pretend you aren't responsible.

[Kadagar_AV]

Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, No matter the fun it would bring me, I will leave the religious debate aside. Sorry for bringing it up..

As to your second point... Let's skip the "who is BETTER" point altogether, shall we? And focus on my main point, that gays are valid parents.

I think some people got stuck on "who is best", and lost the main point...

Are you arguing that gays are not valid? Or are you not? With the research at hand

[Megas Methuselah]

I don't mind gay people adopting kids (no more than other couples), provided said kids have access to their culture of birth.

Otherwise, it's genocide.

[Beskar]

Teh gays can do what they want in their own private sphere, I'm not so sure I like children being brought into it. Because as you all know, the nuclear family has existed throughout all of human history.

I thought they existed since August 1945?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, No matter the fun it would bring me, I will leave the religious debate aside. Sorry for bringing it up..

I doubt you would derive anything other than brief enjoyment out of debating religion with me, I'm really a very boring and technical theologian.

As to your second point... Let's skip the "who is BETTER" point altogether, shall we? And focus on my main point, that gays are valid parents.

I think some people got stuck on "who is best", and lost the main point...

Are you arguing that gays are not valid? Or are you not? With the research at hand

Well, all you've really demonstrated is that well prepared homosexual parents are better than unprepared heterosexual ones, which is why I countered with well prepared heterosexual parents. The problem with your point, in my view, is that it lies in a lack of care/sexuality morality/whatever you want to call it, on the part of heterosexuals in their sexual activity. As it is not possible for homosexcuals to accidently concience, expect with large amounts of alchohol, this is never a problem for them.

So I can use your data to push an ultra-conservative agenda in which we burn the promiscuous at the stake for everyone's benefit.

If you want me to say homosexuals don't make bad parents, yes ok, and? At the end of the day that doesn't argue for well prepared and adjusted homosexual couples being as good as well prepared and adjusted heterosexual ones, because no one will dare do the research.

We can't leave aside the "better" part of the argument because that is the crux of the issue. What is best for our children?

It should really be the driving force behind our society, and sadly often isn't.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't get me wrong, I know you are quite reasonable really. I also respect a lot of what you say. Just that our world views are so different that we wont solve this topic without going hideously off topic first ;)

So let us postpone this debate until later, when we sorted some other stuff (like my depraved life leading straight to hell and your anal-retentive religious views) *note, said with a BIG smiley*

I respect your views to, in particular it's refreshing to see someone that can think for themselves without the knee-jerk liberal-left/right-wing reactions.

Plus it's funny how we agree on little, less ideological things, like the thread on the attractiveness of different races.

But with different cultures I suppose... we end up with these big debates...

PS: I much liked your second post. I can see quite a difference between that and some early posts you did. Is HoreTore holding a gun to your head? ;)

I think I'm becoming all boring and moderate in my old age...

The main reason really is, as I said in another thread recently, I guess with being in the more 'tolerant' environment and having actually seen gay people, I realise they maybe aren't really all rapists/paedophiles/prostitutes/whatever like I used to think they were. At first, I really didn't believe the guys here when they said they weren't.

Don't hate on me too much for it though, even in my old posts I'm a moderate compared to people in RL. My old best friend went to some pretty crazy Baptist church and said he hopes all gay people will burn in hell, another guy (not really religious) says things like he wants to line them up and shoot them.

Looking back that's pretty shocking stuff and way out of touch with what you see for the enlightened minds on this forum, but really this is what things are like outside the world of the educated elite.

[Vladimir]

Louis, first of all, I am way more European than Swedish. So the Swedish punches really does not distract me much.

Yes some states in the US were ahead of Sweden in acknowledging gay adoption, on paper. Would you have been spent some time in Sweden in the earlier years though, you would have seen that gay people still could adopt from the 60's or so. Official law and unofficial law is not always the same, as you well know. The Swedish gay movement was more about having the official ability than the actual ability. There is some state in the US that STILL has the law dictating that a man must walk in front of the car waving a red flag if a woman drives. That does not however mean I flame America about it, as the law is obsolete and just happen to have stayed intact as it doesnt hurt anyone, get the point?

And I am not saying that Sweden is some perfect country, mind you, there are reason why I do not live there!


History aside.

Let us forget about the past, and look at Sweden NOW, compared to the US now... Gay people in Sweden can adopt, get married, serve openly in the army.... In how many US states is that ok, dude?

Touché mon ami :)

Wait, hold on. Are you bragging that Sweeden is gayer than the U.S.? I'm not one to judge so if you want to hang your hat on that, than so be it.

[Strike For The South]

Me, I think a lot of children would be better off without a father. Many fathers destabilise families by being a nasty brute. Many more are present but absent. Two mothers would be a blessing for many a family.
]

This is a stupid statement....I hope you are focused on nasty French sex because if not I am angry sad and pissed off

[PanzerJaeger]

Don't hate on me too much for it though, even in my old posts I'm a moderate compared to people in RL. My old best friend went to some pretty crazy Baptist church and said he hopes all gay people will burn in hell, another guy (not really religious) says things like he wants to line them up and shoot them.

Looking back that's pretty shocking stuff and way out of touch with what you see for the enlightened minds on this forum, but really this is what things are like outside the world of the educated elite.

I've never understood hatred of gays, a lot of it coming from people I otherwise agree with politically. It has no basis in rational thought, much like antisemitism. I blame deep seeded religious influences.

Actually, I guess you could blame the Jews for writing the Torah that has been the basis of homophobia for millenia.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Can't say for sure without looking at the research report itself, but this appears to be correlational data. If so, it can make little or no assessments of the causility for the results, only spotlight issues for further investigation.

Are significant differences reported between lesbian couples raising a child and heterosexual couples raising a child when all other factors are at/near equal levels? From the snippets in these news pieces, it is impossible to say.

But is that at all what the research is about? I didn't think anyone was trying to show that homosexuals are inherently better parents by virtue of being homosexual. It seems like the correlation is what's important here--because the argument has been about not allowing them children. It doesn't matter if they are good parents for some reason unrelated to their sexuality, what matters is that they are good parents.

[HoreTore]

You successfully left me in a bemused state on whether you are attempting to do a joke with me, or trying to do a joke at my expense.

Though, you forget the lines like "I am on the pill." or they supply a broken condom.

Haven't had it happened personally to myself, but I know quite a number of incidents where both straight and lesbians have done this.

"On the pill? Hah! I'm still putting on my rubber, thankyouverymuch.

You have your own condom? What a coincidence; so do I! Let's go with mine, shall we?"

That's my mode of operation. I strongly suggest that everyone else adopts it too. Condoms need to be treated properly. You can treat it properly yourself, but you have no garantuee that the other won't leave it in the sun or something else that'll ruin it.

I went along with "I'm on the pill" once. The result was that I was nervous for the next 9 months. Not going down that road ever again, I tell you....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've never understood hatred of gays, a lot of it coming from people I otherwise agree with politically. It has no basis in rational thought, much like antisemitism. I blame deep seeded religious influences.

Actually, I guess you could blame the Jews for writing the Torah that has been the basis of homophobia for millenia.

I think it has more to do people being insecure about their homosexuality. Homophobia is almost always directed at same-sex homosexuals.

"On the pill? Hah! I'm still putting on my rubber, thankyouverymuch.

You have your own condom? What a coincidence; so do I! Let's go with mine, shall we?"

That's my mode of operation. I strongly suggest that everyone else adopts it too. Condoms need to be treated properly. You can treat it properly yourself, but you have no garantuee that the other won't leave it in the sun or something else that'll ruin it.

I went along with "I'm on the pill" once. The result was that I was nervous for the next 9 months. Not going down that road ever again, I tell you....

You have issues, really.

Anyway, pregnancy is hardly the most negative outcome of having sex, it's probably the least serious if anything.

[edyzmedieval]

No one doubting their better parents, I would expect so to be honest.

It's just the idea of the child asking at home "Why do I have two daddies and no mommy like everyone else?" frightens me greatly. Especially when the child grows enough to realise he's been conceived in a test tube or forgotten by his biological parents.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No one doubting their better parents, I would expect so to be honest.

Why is that?

[edyzmedieval]

People who really want children and go at great odds to "get" one are more prepared and they really desire one, so they're much more attentive than the average person with his child.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it has more to do people being insecure about their homosexuality. Homophobia is almost always directed at same-sex homosexuals.

That would take one heck of a coincidence since homophobia seems to be more a cultural thing than down to individual beliefs. So all the chavs are really just insecure in their sexuality? And everyone in Redneckistan? And places like Africa as well (Uganda in particular, I have a very funny video I might post)? But somehow everyone that lives in tolerant places like Sweden, or middle-class southern England, isnt'?

Plus, people that are generally 'intolerant' tend to be the ones that are homophobic. From personal experience, sectarianism tends to be the main source of intolerant sentiments, followed by homosexuality, then a bit of racism but not much really. So are these people really just insecure in their religion or their skin colour and that's why they don't like Catholics/blacks?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That would take one heck of a coincidence since homophobia seems to be more a cultural thing than down to individual beliefs. So all the chavs are really just insecure in their sexuality? And everyone in Redneckistan? And places like Africa as well (Uganda in particular, I have a very funny video I might post)? But somehow everyone that lives in tolerant places like Sweden, or middle-class southern England, isnt'?

Plus, people that are generally 'intolerant' tend to be the ones that are homophobic. From personal experience, sectarianism tends to be the main source of intolerant sentiments, followed by homosexuality, then a bit of racism but not much really. So are these people really just insecure in their religion or their skin colour and that's why they don't like Catholics/blacks?

we're just more repressed in Europe. People are just a prejudiced, they just hide it better, and because we have greater education we are better at hiding our prejudices or choosing socially acceptable ones.

Take the fashion in anti-religious prejudice among the intelligencia, for example, it's just as ugly as homophobia or racism (and lays many of the same charges, such as inherrent stupidity or moral degeneracy).

Look at the way Kadagar responded to my posts, for example.

People who really want children and go at great odds to "get" one are more prepared and they really desire one, so they're much more attentive than the average person with his child.

None of which is inherently about homosexuality.

[Beskar]

No one doubting their better parents, I would expect so to be honest.

It's just the idea of the child asking at home "Why do I have two daddies and no mommy like everyone else?" frightens me greatly. Especially when the child grows enough to realise he's been conceived in a test tube or forgotten by his biological parents.

Then again, the same issue is with adoption happens anyway, or even single-mothers/fathers.

I know one couple which adopted which since the very beginning mentioned they are in a loving family who chose to have them, not handing the fact they were even adopted in the first place.

Being honest, the whole "I was adopted, I need to find my real parents" is a complete lark anyway. A parent is the person who loves you, takes care of you, and raises you. It isn't who's sexual part created you.

[Beskar]

Anyway, pregnancy is hardly the most negative outcome of having sex, it's probably the least serious if anything.

That is really incorrect. Pregnancy is the most serious, what is more serious than that, is Pregnancy and HIV at the sametime.

[KukriKhan]

"So, we need more gay people to have kids..."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/0...ex.html?hpt=T2

So, specifically, we need more lesbian people to have kids.

One more step down the apparently inevitable road of male irrelevance.

You fellas in your teens and early 20's might want to start working on finding and developing skills that our eventual overlords (women) will find useful... or entertaining.