View Full Version : LotR - The Magnaura
Pages :
[
1]
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
The Magnaura
(The Byzantine Senate)
http://www.byzantium1200.com/images/magnaura1.jpg
The Protoasecretes shuffled across the floor of the Magnaura. He could be heard grumbling to himself about how long it had taken to clean the building after the last Senate session. As he reached the doors, he turned around and sighed wistfully at the immaculate condition of the interior. He knew it would not last long.
With a resigned shrug of his shoulders, he signaled the guards at the entrance, who promptly unbarred the great door. It took only moments for the stream of bodies to rush through, variously talking, laughing, shouting, and gesticulating wildly, depending on the Senator and his circumstances. All were followed by servants carrying candles, documents, quills, ink, and, to the Protoasecretes' dismay, copious quantities of alcohol.
After the initial rush quieted down, the Protoasecretes cleared his throat and stood up at the front of the room.
"Senators of Byzantium! Welcome to the great Magnaura, the traditional home of the Senate. I must first start off by paying proper homage to the great Basileus Aleksios Komenus, first of his line. May he live a long and prosperous life and may the Komnenid Dynasty last for all eternity! Let no Senator forget that we are assembled here to serve his will and aid him in the governance of Roman Empire!"
"Now, since some of you are newly risen to the rank of Senator, let me remind you of the basic rules of the Senate. First, Edicts and Amendments can only be proposed while the Senate is in session. You can conduct business in here whenever you wish, but legislation itself is restricted to formal sessions. I will notify you when sessions begin and end and my word on the matter is final!"
"Second, do not bother proposing legislation that you are not qualified to propose. To prevent us from being paralyzed by pointless paperwork, our wise ancestors have previously decreed that various amounts of seniority of rank are required to propose certain numbers of Edicts and Amendments. Any Senator who exceeds his alloted quota will have his excess submissions stricken from the record, regardless of their nature!"
"Third, with few exceptions, all legislation must be seconded by two Senators before it can be put to the vote. Do not come whining to me if your prized Edict does not end up on the ballot because you were too lazy to gather supporters before you proposed it!"
"Fourth, make sure your legislation is formated in the proper manner! It is hard enough to keep track of the mass of paperwork that goes on in this building. For our own sanity, please format your legislation in the following manner: Edict/Amendment X.Z: Text of Edict/Amendment. (X = Number of the Senate session, Z = Number of the Edict/Amendment within the Senate session.) For example, the third Edict proposed at the fourth Senate session would look like this: Edict 4.3: All Senators will wear togas. The numbers of all Edicts and Amendment proposed during an Emergency Session will be the same, but with an E preceding the numbering (i.e. Edict E4.3).
"Finally, violence will not be permitted in the Magnaura! Limit your attacks to verbal sparring only! Any Senator bringing a weapon into the building, or raising his fist to a fellow Senator, will be forcibly removed by the guards. This is Constantinople, not Rome! We do not stab each other to death in this Senate!"
The Protoasecretes looked around the room and noticed that few men were paying any attention to him. He muttered some obscenities under his breath and glared at the gathered body of Senators. When nothing changed about their demeanor, he sighed, stoop up as straight as he was able, and yelled at the top of his lungs.
"I hereby declare the Byzantine Senate to be in Session! The floor will remain open for debate and legislation until 3:30pm EST on Thursday, June 5th, at which point there will be 48 hours alloted for voting."
With that, he sat down to watch the inevitable chaos.
Privateerkev
06-01-2008, 20:44
Makedonios walked into the Senate with paperwork hooked under his arms and a couple aides in tow. Stopping in the middle of the grand room, he looked for the area set aside for the Order. He finally saw that a simple large table with a bank of seats behind it had the Order's coat of arms on the front. Pleased that the place had been set up to his liking, he walked over and took a seat at the left end of the table, to facilitate oration, which he was sure he would have to do some of.
Looking behind him, he saw the doors that led into the private chambers reserved for the Order. In there, there was a hall with a table large enough to seat all of the Order members. Plus a small barren room for prayer. As well as sleeping quarters for those sessions that go all through the night.
Tall, and with a head of blond hair, the soldier had simple clothes on. A plain cape adorned his shoulders and had a purple Orthodox cross on the back. A small scar adorned his cheek and his eyes were full of life. Unfolding the sheets of paper, it is clear that the noble is preparing to present business before the Senate. But out of respect for the Emperor, he has decided to sit and wait until the Basileus makes his appearance.
_Tristan_
06-01-2008, 20:54
Methodios Tagaris walks into the Senate, a determined look on his face. Dressed in a long-sleeved white tunic and baggy trousers gathered at the knees such as worn by the Varangians. Over his tunic, a thin coat of mail can be seen. On his shoulders is draped a heavy black silken cape. Noticing that the place is still almost empty, he goes and find a seat in an unclaimed section of the benches.
Kagemusha
06-01-2008, 21:00
Ioannis Kantakouzinos walks inside the senate and sits down near the seat of Caesar, looking around the Senate with curious expression in his eyes.
Ramses II CP
06-01-2008, 21:13
Vissarionas was standing meekly to the rear of the mass of senators when the doors were finally thrown open, having deposited his new errand boy in his rooms in the city. When the crowd moved forward Vissarionas moved with them, timidly, coming to a stop as the groups dispersed to their various stations. Casting about somewhat vacantly he at last spots the Order of St. John's table, where his Grandmaster, Comes Makedonios, is already taking a seat.
Confident now Strator Vissarionas strides across the chamber and issues another perfect salute to the Grandmaster, then takes a seat in whichever chair the Comes points out to him. Vissarionas is wide eyed and clearly very impressed by his surroundings, but determined not to make a fool of himself. He has exchanged his more foppish cap for a less dramatic and noticeable model that rests comfortably on his bald head, and his garmets are similarly muted with only the Order's tabard over them being noteworthy.
As with his master, he observes a respectful silence while waiting for the Basileus to arrive and address the body.
:egypt:
Privateerkev
06-01-2008, 21:17
Makedonios spies Vissarionas and gives him a smile. As the sergeant takes a seat near him, Makedonios leans over and asks in a low voice,
"Did you by any chance go to the races? How did the Blue team do?"
_Tristan_
06-01-2008, 21:23
Espying the Grandmaster of the Order of St John at the other side of the Senate, Methodios respectfully inclines his head when the Grandmaster's gaze passes over him.
Noticing that there is ample room left nearer to the Basileus dais, Methodios finds a seat on the benches nearest to the Throne.
Privateerkev
06-01-2008, 21:31
Makedonios sees one of the Strators he has been in correspondence with and gives Methodios a friendly nod in return. He then leans in to hear Vissarionas's reply.
BananaBob
06-01-2008, 21:55
Nathanail ek Korinthou walks into the Magnaura, and seeing the gathering of the Order of St.John, proceeds to sit down amongst them at the table. He wears a long white tunic underneath a robe decorated with the insignia of the Order of St.John.
A shy and curious young man enters the Magnaura wearing plain looking robes, fumbling his authentication papers under his arm Nevoulos ek Philadelphias looks around hoping to find someone he recognizes... He sees some of the retainers if Hypatios of the Asteri sorting some papers to one side and rushes over enthusiastically.
They shoo him away rather embarrassedly, he realises he is not on the battlefield or in the company of his bodygaurd here and he must act as a nobleman.
Nevoulos curiously eyes the men who have the insignia of the Order of St.John and catches the eye of the Grandmaster and admires the magnificence and peacefulness of the man in such a grand setting. He begins to veer to sit somewhere near them and realises that he should sit somewhere near the representatives of his house toward the other side of the great political theatre.
He moves as regally as he can manage over to that side and rather over majestically sits on the stone seats two rows back from where he suspects the house's leader may sit.
He realises he has not much to do but wait and decides he must be seen to be doing something and gets out calls in one of his two servents to fetch him some parchments to read and write on.
Cecil XIX
06-01-2008, 22:35
Armatos walks into the Magnaura, but stops at the doorway in surprise at how quiet things are. After a few minutes of waiting or someone to speak, he dejectedly departs.
Markianos Ampelas enters the Magnaura neatly dressed in clean clothes. He takes a seat without minding too much where it is, bows his head, closes his eyes, and presses with his fingers upon the bridge of his nose, as if nursing the most horrendous headache.
AussieGiant
06-01-2008, 23:38
A tall slender and solemn young man enters the Magnaura. He's wearing the blue silk cloak of the Saracen Mansuriyya regiment embroidered with inscriptions from the Koran. Black bands of cloth on his upper arms display his name and rank, that of an officer of one of the Sultan’s Egyptian Slave regiments. His deeply tanned face is set in a stony and unreadable expression.
That gaze falls upon a court official rapidly approaching with two burley guards in tow. The short agitated man begins speaking excitedly in rapid fire Greek, pointing to the door and gesturing for the man to leave.
With a slow even motion the Saracen Officer reaches into his red scale armoured tunic and produces a number of documents, both guards tense momentarily and even the official stops talking momentarily as a horrifying thought of violence crosses his mind.
A moment passes as the official looks at the documents held in front of him, finally he snatches the papers and begins to read. After no more than a minute he hands back the papers and hisses out a series of instructions to the young officer calmly standing before him. At last the official finishes his tirade and the young officer inclined his head in agreement and moves to the back of the room to stand against the wall and watch.
pevergreen
06-01-2008, 23:50
Michail slips in, walking past the Order and the multitude of Houses now in existance. The only thing of note about his appearance is the orange and black cloak he wears over his left shoulder, leaving his sword free. The brooch connecting his clock and tunic had an odd design, a silver hawk. It seemed a trivial thing, but Michail absently polished it. As he sat down he noted the lack of conversation between groups. As currently Michail is unaffiliated, he sought to make some action at least.
"Friend Senators, I speak for the good of the empire. I propose we start the debates, let us talk between our political groups and work out the best course of action for all involved. As of yet I am waiting on a scout's reports, but shall return to the floor when he arrives. I now hand the floor to the next willing speaker..."
Markianos looks up.
Let the Basileus speak first. It is not only proper that he is given that honor, but how shall we debate if we know not what he plans to do, and in what way he intends to lead the Empire?
Markianos then glances over at the oddly-dressed Saracen, and puts his head back in his hands.
pevergreen
06-02-2008, 00:04
Michail's face looks as if a stinging blow has been struck to it. For a moment, it seems that he may attack Marianos, but then realises he was indeed presumptuous. Making a mental note to thank Markianos for pointing out his mistakes, Michail sits quietly, vowing to learn how to play these political games.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 00:34
Anastasios Neokaisareitis enters the Senate chamber. He is dressed in simple, efficient clothes, but his tunica cannot conceal the fact that he wears a light chain shirt underneath it. Even though it is still early morning, it is clearly visible he has been up and about for some time. Those Senators who know of him realize he is probably returning from his tasteless exercises at the Campus Martius.
He takes a seat near the section reserved for the Asteri. Though his demeanor is calm, there is a certain uneasiness about him. Careful observers notice he is not at his best in this hall of debates.
A few quick glances around the room show that many Senators have arrived. Most noticeable among them, the Grandmaster of the Order of St. John, Makedonios Ksanthopoulos. There was much talk about the Order and its leader in the City. Some thought of him as a holy man giving his life for a noble cause.
"Heh," Anastasios chuckled lightly, "nothing in this world is noble."
"Then again," he mused, "he has his fixations, I have mine. Why should I judge him?"
He realized his gaze had strayed a tad too long towards Comes Ksanthopoulos and quickly looked away, hoping the inappropriate gesture had not been caught.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 00:43
Makedonios sees one of the Strators he has been in correspondence with and gives Methodios a friendly nod in return. He then leans in to hear Vissarionas's reply.
Vissarionas ek Lesvou speaks quietly in the Grandmaster's ear.
M'lord as I understood the proceedings the blue team did exceptionally well in that their charioteer won the race despite having broken his wheel in the middle! It was a remarkable feat. My own red team's man made an, err, small contribution as well by heading off the pursuit and taking third place. Quite a pleasant experience, and I managed to collect an errand boy that I suspect will be quite useful. He is named for the Archangel Raphael! I will speak more of him later.
With a quick nod Vissarionas then tries to follow the further conversations erupting in the chamber.
:egypt:
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 02:07
Makedonios sees Nathanail walk in and he waves him over. The new sergeant walks over and joins the Order's table.
It seems few people wish to pre-empt the Emperor's right to speak first and dictate the tone of the session. Most people are just walking in and attempting to make a good impression. People are sizing each other up.
With a soldier's gaze, Makedonios keeps an eye on everyone without it being obvious. He notices Nevoulos, another noble he has sent a letter to, look in his direction. The Comes smiles and gives the noble a friendly nod. He notices his friend Armatos walk in, see nothing happening, and leave.
Looking over at his fellow land-owner Markianos, Makedonios is happy that he swore off alcohol. The entry of Apionnas Vringas got Makedonios's attention. As someone who read books on the Holy Land, he knew what the Strator's silk cloak meant. The Grandmaster was sad that Apionnas had to go through such an ordeal but happy that the young noble was obviously free.
Michail attempted to start the proceedings early but Markianos put an end to it. Makedonios just sat back and watched to see how people would handle the situation.
And then Anastasios walked in. Makedonios had done some research on the senators and knew who the man was. His cruelty was well known and for some reason, he was able to get a conversation with Anna. The feeling of jealousy came back and out of the corner of his eye, he saw Anastasios staring at him. He decided it was best to just ignore it. There were far more important matters at hand.
The Grandmaster was brought back to the present when Vissarionas finally answered him about his question regarding the races. Makedonios's eyes lit up when he heard how the Blue team did. But knowing the races could be a contentious topic in the Senate, he kept his voice low when he talked to his youngest sergeant.
I'm glad to hear Kaspax won. And please tell me about the boy you found when you get the chance.
Iakovos rushes into the Magnaura, perspiration on his brow, his clothes slightly disheveled. He spies Makedonios and Vissarionas at the Order's table and rushes over to them and takes a seat. "I'm am terribly sorry M'lord Makedonios, I had worn myself ragged last night reading. I am afraid we we will have to acquire more candles." Iakovos finally takes a breath, and takes a look around him. "I have not missed anything of importance, have I?"
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 04:07
Pleased to see another of his sergeants, Makedonios waves Iakovos to come sit. He leans over and speaks softly.
You haven't missed much. It's only proper for the Basileus to speak first and set the tone and direction for the session. So mostly, people have simply filed in, taken their seats, and talked softly amongst themselves.
Ignoramus
06-02-2008, 04:13
Ioannis Komenos, clearly sick of the silence rises to his feet and begins to address the senators.
In the absence of my father, I shall raise some important concerns.
Senators, I call upon every one of you to publicly swear your allegience to my father, Aleksios Komnenos, Basileus of Rome! Should you not do so, I need not tell you what my father's actions will be.
You have seen how mistrust and intrigue have brought our empire to the verge of destruction. Therefore, lay aside your scheming ambitions, and serve my father faithfully. In turn, you shall have your reward.
The Caesar sits down, with silence greeting his words.
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 04:41
I, Armatos ek Naksou, swear absolute fealty to Basileus Alexius I Komnenos!
Philippos enters the Magnaura and stops to look and see if his Comes had already entered. He finds the area of seating for his house, but no one is there. He shakes his head, and takes a seat alone.
He looks as though he wishes to speak, but decides it would be better if he held his tongue.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 04:53
Like a soldier at attention, Anastasios stands up and salutes the Caesar:
I swear to serve Rome and her Emperor, Aleksios Komnenos!
He quickly sits back down, feeling a little foolish in his eagerness.
pevergreen
06-02-2008, 05:04
Michail sees Philippos sitting alone, for a moment he seems to be considering something, he then rises, stating in his all-so-common cynical voice
"Gentlemen, all I have done and will do is for the good of the empire, as I stated. Basileus Alexius I Komnenos I serve you."
Seemingly happy with what he has said, Michail walks over and greets Philippos with a barely perceptable incline of the head. Taking a seat next to Philippos, Michail strikes up a short lived but hurried conversation, in a muttering tone. Without waiting for a reply Michail returns to his seat, still without House, seemingly without honour.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 05:04
With a slight look of annoyance Vissarionas rises and vows his allegiance to Aleksios Komnenos.
:egypt:
Philippos thinks over what Michail said to him. Once Michail looks towards him again, Philippos slightly nods his head, so only someone who is watching him would notice.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 05:41
Annoyed at the bit of theater going on, Makedonios had hoped to just stay quiet. But when two of his sergeants stood up and spoke because of the specter of fear that the Caesar created, he knew he had to say something.
With all due respect Caesar, I do not swear to someone because a third party asks me to. I swear to them directly. When the Basileus arrives, I will make it perfectly clear where the loyalties of the Order lies. As will I to you when you are Basileus. Until then, I find this exercise... distracting...
Iakovos pulled out a roll of parchment and a quill, and quickly began scribbling something on the paper. Quickly finishing, Iakovos read it over and then nodded to himself before rolling it up and calling over one of the pages and handing over the paper. Iakovos whispers something to the Page in a whisper, and smiles to himself. Iakovos listens to Makedonios, nodding in agreement but saying nothing.
The orders newest sergeant enters the senate quietly. A simple looking nobleman from the remoter part of Greece, he is somewhat intimidated by the magnificence. Vartholomaios Ksiros walks a few steps inside, then decides not to enter the company of his peers at the Orders table but instead keeps standing by the wall, trying to not lean too obviously to the wall.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 08:09
Makedonios sees Vartholomaios holding a wall up and smiles at the sergeant while waving at him to come over and sit with his comrades.
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 08:17
Armatos enters the Magnaura. After scanning the room he takes a seat with the rest of the Order.
Savvas ek Militou entered the Magnaura. His face was pale and he was clearly feeling sick.
Suffering from the grandmother of all hang-overs, he entered just when Makedonios made his rebellious statement.
Savvas calmly smiled at Makedonios.
"The Caesar merely asked to swear allegiance to the Basileus. Why wouldn't you want to do that?", he said, with a raw voice.
He walked a bit further and said with a louder voice: "I swear allegiance to Aleksios Komnenos, Basileus of Rome."
He walked towards the seat between Philippos and Michail, nodding at them. Before sitting down, he turned around.
"I would like to propose an Edict. Before the beginning of each Magnaura, every Senator present has to swear allegiance to the Basileus of Rome. He who refuses, will be tried for high treason. A commission of three Senators, picked by the majority of the Magnaura will decide over the fate of the traitor."
Savvas calmly took his seat.
Kagemusha
06-02-2008, 08:40
Ioannis Kantakouzinos returns to the Senate and walks back to the same seat he had yesterday.After reading what has been said so far he smiles to himself and thinks.
"I wonder what kind of argument there will be before the Basileos enters the session, or maybe thats exactly what he is planning. Monitoring who will go after whom´s throat. At least it seems that the Cypriot has no respect towards the Caesar, i guess its easy to grow an independent mind in a far away island. Maybe the master of order will soon learn that he is in fact in Constantinopol and not in his island."
_Tristan_
06-02-2008, 08:47
Methodios Tagaris stands up to speak.
I will swear allegiance when and only when the Basileus will be in attendance. There is no point in swearing allegiance without looking to your Lord so that he can the bottom of your soul at a glance.
When this session will be duly opened, I will second the Edict proposed by Savvas ek Militou. Until then, I suggest we all remain queit and wait for Our Emperor to make his appearance before this noble assembly.
Methodios sits back down, with a nod to Savvas ek Miilitou.
Ignoramus
06-02-2008, 08:57
Ioannis smiles, and then rises to address Comes Ksanthopoulos.
Ah, Makedonios! It is good to see someone hear who cares for the plight of our fellow Christians under the bondage of the heathen.
But do you really call me a third party? I am suprised at your tone. Surely you must know that I am my father's son and his heir. My father and I are very close; we trust each other. Indeed, I am Caesar of the Romans. Such a position is not bestowed lightly.
Perhaps you had overlooked these things. Swear your allegiance to my father, and I will bear no grudge. I am not a man to hold grudges.
The Caesar resumes his seat.
Savvas stares silently at Makedonios, his lips forming the word "traitor".
He smiled and waited for the Basileus.
Hypatios enters and smiles widely at the Caesar, apparently oblivious of the tension between him and Makedonios. Hypatios takes a seat in the Asteri benches, though not too close to Anastasios as the man seems to be talking to himself.
Savvas calls a servant. He whispered something in the girls' ear. The servant nods and quickly puts what looks like a little piece of parchmant in her sleeve. She walks away.
Vartholomaios ambles to the Order's table, relieved that someone has noticed him. He sits down and nods to his comrades and then concentrates on watching the various speakers.
Savvas nods back to Methodios Tagaris and stands up.
My dear Methodios, I'd like to remember you that the word of the Protoasecretes is decisive on the opening and closing of the Magnaura Sessions.
This session has already been duly opened by the Protoasecretes and my Edict has been validly proposed. It can be seconded as we speak.
Savvas sits down again, waiting for Methodios' response.
_Tristan_
06-02-2008, 10:25
Methodios rises and answers the waiting Savvas.
While I do not seek to demean the work of the Protoasecretes, I do not believe that a session is truly opened until the Basileus has made its appearance and declared it so (this said with a finger pointing to the empty Throne).
So until then, I will reserve my secondment of your Edict. But second it I will... Then...
Methodios sits back down. His gaze remains on the large doors through which the Basileus should appear, a patient look settling on his face.
Askthepizzaguy
06-02-2008, 10:56
Strator Efstratios Monomachos arrives in the Senate wearing full clown regalia. His shoes are large and floppy, his bowtie enormous. His nose is a large red ball, and his face painted up like a prostitute on a drinking binge. His wild and curly hair is rainbow-coloured, the buttons on his shirt are all different colours. His oversized pants are held up only by a small bit of rope. After several Senators notice his appearance, he somewhat inaudibly and embarrassingly mutters in their direction;
My apologies, but I have just come from the local hospital, where I was performing my duties as a public servant by entertaining orphaned children who are very ill. Rest assured, I am ready to serve the Emperor by swearing allegiance to him and by serving our people as a Senator.
The Senators continue to stare, so Efstratios takes several pomegranates he had hidden in his enormous pants and begins to juggle them. The Senators turn their noses up at this silly man and look away, ignoring him.
Good. Let's just focus on the legislation, shall we?
Satisfied, Efstratios puts the pomegranates back in his huge pockets and sits down.
Ituralde
06-02-2008, 11:39
Pavlos had filed in with the other Senators during the beginning of the Session and had positioned himself in the back, near the Ceasar Ioannis Komnenos and has since followed the proceedings with a disinterested scowl on his face.
Finally he steps forward to adress the Senate. He is a burly man whose most noticable feature, now that he is not wearing his bevor, is a thick scar running from the left corner of his mouth down over his chin and neck. His natural grim expression is only enhanced by the eternal downcast of his mouth. Raising a fist to his heart he turns toward the empty throne.
"I Pavlos Chrysovergos pledge my loyalty to the Basileus Aleksios Komnenos and to his heir Ioannis Komnenos, may the Gods smile on them and may the Empire prosper under their rule."
Turning his gaze over the assembled nobles his expression darkens even more: "Everyone here would do well to heed the Caesars call."
He turns back towards the assembled Komnenodoukais and takes his seat in the front row.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 13:58
Makedonios lifts an eyebrow when he sees Savvas mouth the word "traitor" at him. He finally stands up, leans over his table, and puts his palms down flat on the surface. Staring hard at Savvas, he speaks,
If a Senator would like to call me a traitor, then I suggest he not be a coward and say the word out loud to my face.
Straightening up, he turns to face the Caesar.
I meant no disrespect. But I am confident that the Emperor is more than capable of making his own feelings known. If he is uncertain of any man's loyalty, I believe the man in question will find out soon enough in an unpleasant manner.
Therefore, my oath is reserved for him, when he requests it. No one but him has the right to question my loyalty to him. And I will assure him of that loyalty. But on his terms.
Turning now to address the Senate,
Is this how we start off the session? With threats and fear? I am saddened to see that some men responded so meekly. I thought I was sitting in a room full of generals...
Now I strongly suggest everyone have patience and await the Emperor's arrival. Then we can let him know in person how we feel about him.
*Khristophoros Diogenis eagerly stands and declares himself.*
I wholeheartedly proclaim my undying allegiance to Basileus Aleksios Komnenos and the entire Komneni dynasty. May they reign eternal and return the world to its rightful place under Roman rule.
*The Strator looks around, hesitantly. The entire Senate appears to be waiting for the Basileus to speak, but he is nowhere to be seen. With the Protoasecretes growing visibly impatient with the delay in discussion of legislation, Diogenis clears his throat and begins to speak.*
It is only right and proper that the Basileus be the first man to speak at length in this Senate, but our job is first and foremost to serve the Basileus, and this we do not do by stalling. We must set about the affairs of the Empire immediately, for further delay simply risks leaving important issues undiscussed when the time for debate runs out. I am certain that the Basileus would prefer that we commence with the business of Byzantium, rather than risking her security due to timidity and excessive manners.
I will begin by discussing the obvious; the Empire is not what it used to be. We have suffered greatly at the hands of the Turks and the mismanagement of the Doukid dynasty. The legacy of Manzikert still stains us. Yet we are not strong enough to be able to confront our eastern enemies just yet. Should we immediately plunge into war with the Muslim horsemen, we will be badly handled, as we will have neither the treasury nor the manpower to support a large-scale war. We must therefore devote our immediate efforts to reigning in the independant provinces that no longer heed the word of the Basileus. I propose the following Edict:
Edict 1.2: All military assets will be devoted to the conquest of the rebel settlements of Canakkale, Arta, Durazzo, Scopia, Sofia, Sinop, Smyrna, Rhodes, and Trebizond before they can be released for other purposes. No attack will be made on any foreign nation until this reconquest is complete. This Edict does not apply to any of the above settlements which are conqured by a foreign nation before they are reincorporated into the Empire. This Edict is void if a foreign nation attacks the Empire.
We must gather our strength, Senators, so that we will be strong enough to survive the struggles ahead. Reasserting Constantinople's rule over these wayward provinces is an absolute necessity. I urge you to second my Edict and to vote for it.
_Tristan_
06-02-2008, 14:12
Methodios Tagaris rises, anger seething in his eyes.
You have spoken almost the exact same words I did earlier, Comes Ksanthopoulos and I thank you for your support.
As for the name-calling, I would have stood up to correct the one who proferred the outrageous words, had I heard or noticed anything.
Senators, the debate has not begun yet and already we throw harsh words at one another's face...
Think of what our Basileos will think of us... Senators... Nay, schoolboys, rather...
We ought to be the best of the best of what the empire has to offer and see how we quarrel like the lowest of dock-hands...
Get a grip on yourself before our Lord's arrival, for God's sake...
And you, Caesar, with all the respect due to your family name, for some years still, you are only but the shadow of your father... One day, you will ascend that throne but until then you have no right to question the loyalty of the men gathered in these halls.
We are all loyal servants of the Empire and loyal servants of your father but our declarations of loyalty, if need be, are for the Basileos to demand, and for him only...
Pardon me if I spoke harshly but diplomacy is not my cup of tea. My place is on a battlefield where such niceties have no place.
Bowing with deference to the Prince, Tagaris sits back down, angered with himself for having spoken while pleading for silence.
Savvas stood up from his seat.
"I see Makedonios easily looses his temper. Maybe that's what an ascetical lifestyle does to a man."
Some laughter could be heard.
"I'd say have a few goblets of wine and spend the night with one of our beautiful servant girls, my esteemed colleague. No better cure against a bad temper then a complete capitulation to the pleasures of the Flesh."
Savvas grinned. More laughter followed.
"But enough of this. I'm terribly sorry for being a nitpicker, my dear Khristophoros Diogenis, but I believe the Edict you just proposed is Edict 1.2.
For good measure, I'll repeat the Edict I proposed a bit earlier:
Edict 1.1.: Before the beginning of each session of the Magnaura, every Senator present has to swear allegiance to the Basileus of Rome. He who refuses, will be tried for high treason. A commission of three Senators, picked by the majority of the Magnaura will decide over the fate of the traitor.
Savvas went back to his seat, an amused expression on his face
My apologies, Strator ek Militou, I am new to this body and must have missed that Edict amongst all the commotion. I thought everyone was simply swearing allegiance to the Basileus out of true faith and honesty, not actual legislation. That was my intent, at least.
I have re-numbered my Edict accordingly, and I thank you for your correction.
OOC: Proper format for proposing legislation is:
Edict/Amendment X.X: Text
Just like with voting in Mafia, the bolding helps them stand out. I'll alter the first post to include this information.
Ituralde
06-02-2008, 14:57
Pavlos raps on his table loudly.
"Hear! Hear! I second Edict 1.2! Bringing those rebellious provinces back under Imperial control should be our first and foremost concern."
He turns towards Savvas ek Militou and with a sideglance to one of the scribes starts to speak.
"I fear for your Edict 1.1 to even be in effect for the start of the next Diet Session it would have to be a Charter Amendment. Fortunately you lack the rank to propose one. The word of a nobleman once given should not have to be repeated at every corner!"
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 15:03
Ignoring Savvas, Makedonios speaks.
I prefer we wait to hear the opening statements of the Basileus before we start binding his hands with edicts.
Savvas looks amused at Pavlos.
Kagemusha
06-02-2008, 15:34
Ioannis Kantakouzinos stands up from the seat of the Imperials and says:
"As you all must know there is a banquet in few hours held in the Ducas residence. I must regrettably inform you that i will take my leave, but will return the minute i receive message about the Basileos approaching the senate."
Kantakouzinos marches out from the Senate building.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 16:25
Hearing Khristophoros Diogenis’ proposed edict, Anastasios stirs. In a somewhat blunt voice, he addresses the Senator:
Would Senator Diogenis be willing to amend his proposed edict to include the castle of Bari in southern Italy? The castle answers to none of the western powers and would be a vital foothold for the empire in the west. We surely should not abandon our Italian holdings completely. It would only show weakness and cowardice.
Bari is certainly a historic Byzantine possession and must be returned to us. I was hesitant to list it simply because it should be a lower priority than our immediate surroundings for obvious reasons. If Bari is still controlled by an independant ruler by the time we have regained control of the Balkans and the coast of Anatolia, it should certainly be regained at once. I simply would not want to give it priority over the other provinces I listed, as it would be far worse for one of those settlements to be occupied by a foreign power than Bari. I feel similarly, about Adana and Antioch, settlements which I know arouse a great deal of passion amongst the members of the Order of St. John.
Simply put, there are a great many provinces that are the rightful possession of Basileus Aleksios Komnenos. This includes Italy and Outremer. However, retaking those provinces will require much strength due to the tenacity of the foreign powers located nearby. We must make sure that we first build this strength in our core provinces, otherwise we risk over-stretching our already meager resources. We must be fast and efficient with our endeavors, making sure that every coin is spent where it will be of the greatest use, and ensuring that no Roman blood is spilled unless it provides a tangible increase to the security and prosperity of the entire Empire.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 18:06
I assure you Senator that if I was given but a hundred men and ferried across the sea, I could take Bari and hold it against all comers! There is a simple difference between Bari and Antioch. Bari is in Italy, the cradle of Roman civilization! A simple stretch of sea separates it from Greece, not miles upon miles of Turkish territory! We have no right to deny our brothers in Italy the support of our arms!
I have consulted the Map Room and you do have a point, Strator Neokaisareitis. The waterway between Greece and Apulia is narrower than I thought, and that land has been Byzantine for hundreds of years. A conquest would be feasible and would indeed be a liberation of our people, instead of pure conquest. I am still hesitant about giving it a priority, though, since such an expedition requires a fleet. While there is a small fleet nearby, the Order of St. John has a greater need of ships, and I would not want to make the Megas choose between the large expense of building a new fleet and depriving that worthy alliance of their only means of transportation. Still, there is wisdom in your words, so I will amend my Edict to make Bari an optional province, if the Megas deems it worthy. I will also transfer Trebizond into the 'optional' category, simply because it is so far away from our core provinces at this present time. The revised Edict reads as follows:
Edict 1.2: All military assets will be devoted to the conquest of the rebel settlements of Canakkale, Arta, Durazzo, Scopia, Sofia, Sinop, Smyrna, and Rhodes before they can be released for other purposes. Bari and Trebizond may be included in this list at the discretion of the Megas Logothetes. No attack will be made on any foreign nation until this reconquest is complete. This Edict does not apply to any of the above settlements which are conquered by a foreign nation before they are reincorporated into the Empire. This Edict is void if a foreign nation attacks the Empire.
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 18:24
Begging your pardon Senator Neokaisareitis, but there are no Turks between Cyprus and Antioch. In fact, the Order could have the city under siege by 1083 with a strong force. In order for us get as a close to Bari we would first need to seize Durazzo.
I do support and second Edict 1.2 in its current form.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 18:31
Vissarionas has been waiting impatiently for someone more senior to make what he feels is an important point, and his jitters finally overcome his restraint, so he rises to speak.
If the plan to reclaim old territories is put forward under the idea that it is more practical than capturing Antioch or Adana, I have to say I find the idea quite suspect. Antioch is a city rich in trade and unheld by any organized nation. The rebels in power there are quite weak, and our ships and troops already present in the region would be years travelling to the provinces listed in the Edict when a journey of mere months would take them to Antioch.
Every man here wishes to see the Empire rebuilt to it's place of glory, but a constraint on our conquests will, on purely practical grounds, hinder that effort more than help. I can only presume that many of the settlements on this list were, forgive me for stating the obvious, lost with light defense precisely because a stronger defense was unjustified by their relative worth. If we pour forth our armies taking back lands that were lost because they had little to offer the Empire in the first place then what purpose will all our blood and effort have served but to invite those lands to be lost again?
I am a new man here, and very junior I know, but let us have some common sense in our proposals of law. Aid the commanders in the field, rather than constrain them, and these good men will bring glory to the Basileus and the Empire!
So saying Vissarionas colors faintly and returns to his seat without looking about to see how his speech was received.
:egypt:
With all due respect, Strator ek Naksou, I believe you are ignoring the larger picture. The issue not the ease with which the province can be reconquered, but whether such a conquest is useful to the Basileus at this point in time. I do not doubt that the Order of St. John could capture Antioch if it were given the resources to do so, but such an act would actively injure the Empire. That city is very large and it has no great love of the Orthodox faith. Simply keeping it from rioting would require a very large garrison which will sap our treasury at a time when that coin could be better spent elsewhere. We must first obtain those settlements which will be easy to defend and provide immediate benefit to the Empire. Adana is at least a theoretically plausible consideration, since it, like Bari, would require only a small garrison to keep order. Antioch itself is an entirely unreasonable objective simply because it would drain more from the Empire than it would give back. We could conquer several provinces with the resources required just to keep order in Antioch.
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 18:56
I was merely correcting a mischaracterization of Antioch's situation, Senator Diogenes. T'was not my intent to paint a complete picture of the situation, though fortunately the Senator ek Lesvou has already done a good job of that.
Antioch is rich, strategically located and can be held rather cheaply. All me need to keep the locals from rebelling are large numbers of soldiers to keep them in line, and should our current forces prove insufficient that task could be handled by peasents trained on Cyprus. It would not be the most difficult or time-consuming conquest proposed thus far.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 19:05
By no means was I suggesting that Antioch or Adana are not worthy objectives. I simply stated that between our heartlands and the Levant, there exists the power of the Turks that prevent easy reinforcements from anywhere but Cyprus. And the island of Cyprus is itself quite removed from the imperial center of power. But if the Order can take it, they will find no objections on my part. After all, those who defy the Empire deserve their fate. Bari on the other hand, is quite close. Even if Epirus refuses to heed imperial edicts at the present, that is not a situation which will last for long.
There are dark undertone to the way which Anastasios pronounces those last words. A few of the older senators shuffle uneasily on their seats.
Markianos stands and speaks, mostly facing toward the Order as he does so.
I would ask the respected members of the Order of St. John to have patience. The mission they have taken upon themselves is commendable, and I fully support it, but it is impractical to undertake immediately. It has not been ten years since the Turks overran Anatolia, and only slightly longer since the Slavs did likewise in the west. In both the east and west, we find ourselves barely clinging to the sea. In the east, mighty Nicaea is all that stands; some speak of establishing footholds in Italy and the Levant, and fail to realize that a foothold is but all we have in all of Asia! In the west, our cities are isolated. There are no roads to connect them, no forts to guard them. The Slavs sit in our hinterlands, and we all look to the sea as our only means of connection to Constantinople. Even the sea is not secure, with foreign powers and rebels sitting on our very own islands!
All is not lost, however. The enemies closest to us are weak and fragmented, and have found their cities listed in an edict of conquest by the wise Khristophoros Diogenis. These cities must be brought to our control without delay, because beyond them lie strong and united foreign powers. If you are not convinced, Senators, imagine for a moment the Turks occupying Canakkale, and the Hungarians the fort at Sofia. Both are within a weeks' march from Constantinople itself. Do you really want to put our great city in that position? The forts I speak of here are our very last line of defense. There is nothing between them and Constantinople and our other great cities. And yet, we do not currently occupy them, and yet, I do not hear calls for their immediate conquest. I must say that I am surprised.
I assume all of you who were not already in Constantinople have come here by ship. This is because there are no land links between our cities. Our Empire is a collection of cities on the coast, and I do challenge anyone to explain to me just how that is in any way a defensible and sustainable position. It may be if the Imperial Navy is strong, but any city could be attacked at will, and would have to rely on support coming from the sea. The Navy should be kept strong, but we now have a chance to secure the hinterlands of our cities as a layer of protection, and we only have a short time to do it, before the Seljuks, Hungarians, and Venetians themselves conquer those independent cities and forts that now separate us.
Yes, there are many lands to reconquer. It is no secret that our Empire has declined in the recent centuries. But at this time, we must be united and act quickly to protect the very core cities of the Greeks, their heart, which is all that remains. If we should do this, then the Lord will grant us that at the next Senate session we will be discussing which Roman lands we next wish to free from occupation by those heathen Turks and Saracens, and the western barbarians.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 19:20
With all due respect, Strator ek Naksou, I believe you are ignoring the larger picture. The issue not the ease with which the province can be reconquered, but whether such a conquest is useful to the Basileus at this point in time. I do not doubt that the Order of St. John could capture Antioch if it were given the resources to do so, but such an act would actively injure the Empire. That city is very large and it has no great love of the Orthodox faith. Simply keeping it from rioting would require a very large garrison which will sap our treasury at a time when that coin could be better spent elsewhere. We must first obtain those settlements which will be easy to defend and provide immediate benefit to the Empire. Adana is at least a theoretically plausible consideration, since it, like Bari, would require only a small garrison to keep order. Antioch itself is an entirely unreasonable objective simply because it would drain more from the Empire than it would give back. We could conquer several provinces with the resources required just to keep order in Antioch.
Vissarionas rises with a overly light-hearted look and uses a voice perhaps more suitable to haggling with a fish merchant than addressing the Senate, but he is clearly gaining confidence.
But my good man, this is absurd. You propose that the soldiers and ships already within striking distance of Antioch be paid to sail several years to another of your targets, targets which are poorer and also have no love of the Empire, because you think it will be cheaper than garrisoning a rich city?
Either you are a master fortune teller or you are simply making excuses for the impracticality of your proposal. As a man who has visited the region, take my word for it, even the rebels of Antioch do an astonishing quantity of trade and all that wealth is sitting there just a few miles off the current coast of the Empire. Implying that we will save money by sailing away from it to claim a few crude castles and villages is simply not an excuse I find credible.
As to defense, few cities in the world are as readily defended as Antioch. With an easily closed bridge to the north, a nearly impassable river to the east, and only a thin stretch of land to the south Antioch is more easily defended than any of the settlements you've listed.
Let's hear a different excuse, eh? Perhaps your proposal is a sentimental one rather than practical, which I can certainly respect, desiring to establish our old borders as a matter of formality before further expansion.
:egypt:
AussieGiant
06-02-2008, 19:28
Pulling himself slowly off the wall by the doors the young Saracen looking Officer walks a little way into the centre circle.
In a slow, deliberate and accented voice he begins:
My Lords, I am obviously unfamiliar with this land and the politics that govern it, but I am familiar with both Turkish and Egyptian strategy.
I can confirm that the Egyptian Sultan and the Turks both eye Antioch with equal desire.
While I am not questioning the marshal abilities assembled in this room, taking that province and any that surround it will only bring this Empire closer to conflict with these two empires.
I believe that should be avoided for the moment due to the lack of military power I am hearing discussed here.
With that he steps back some distance to await any response.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 19:48
With a look of total incredulity, Anastasios looks at the tanned man.
That is a ridiculous statement… Senator.
He pronounces the title reluctantly.
The Empire should not shirk from any confrontation with heathens. The just seek not to appease the corupt and the righteous seek not peace with the wicked. Did not God command his faithful through the words of the prophet Samuel to go and completely destroy the wicked people, to make war on them until we have wiped them out? Lack of military power is not in question here.
I regret my earlier statement. It was ill-worded. I ment it not to be exclusive, but rather to not limit our scope of action too much. Though I agree we should not seek conflict with our powerful neighbors, should they bring it to us, we will show them what sons of Greeks and Romans are capable of!
1 Samuel 15:18
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 19:51
Be that as it may, it will take the Turks some time before they can even hope of assualting Antioch as they must first seize either Adana or Edessa. The only immediate threat would be the Templar Knights to the south, but with only a wooden castle to their it will be some time before they can afford a large enough army to even think of attacking us.
The fact of the matter is that Antioch would be of great help in funding our efforts to reclaim the surrounding territories. Senator Markianos's assessement is quite sound, but it requires money. Seizing Antioch is an investment that will pay for itself, and it will not bring the Empire closer to war than the seizure of any other province would.
Savvas stands up from his seat and looks at Vissarionas.
We have to take into account our standing among other nations. We are obliged to our honor to reconquer what was once ours.
What are we? Merchants counting every coin in our treasure twice or noblemen, ready to retake what belongs to us?
After the Byzantine Empire has regained its' old strength and glory, we can think about conquering the Holy Land.
Our Saracen friend raises an interesting point. Let the Egyptian and the Turkish dogs weaken each other while they are struggling for Antioch and the other cities of the Holy Land.
After we regained what is rightfully ours, we can weep out whatever there is left from the Turks and Egyptians and claim the Holy Land for ourselves.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 20:03
Makedonios had sat back and listened to the debate. It was clear that he had wanted to wait for the Emperor to come and give his opinion on the matter first. But now that the mission to Antioch was being mis-characterized, and his sergeants were valiantly attempting to defend the mission, the Grandmaster knew he had to speak up.
Gentlemen, there is a saying among military historians. "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics."
Let us look at the logistics of the situation.
Edict 1.2 will force the Order to either a.) be inactive all term, or b.) move totally in an opposite direction and be unprepared for next term.
There are no settlements on the Edict's list that we can reach quickly. Look at the maps. There are two ships off of Cyprus. And each ship can take only 2 regiments. The closest settlements on that list are Rhodes and Smyrna. And it would take years to sail 4 regiments/generals over to Rhodes. Then the ships would have to sail back, then sail more years to transport the other 4 regiments/generals. By the end of the term, we "might" have Rhodes. And by the beginning of the next term, all of our forces will be sitting far out in the middle of the Mediterranean. To me, that is unacceptable.
What we propose is simple. We ask that the Emperor be given the flexibility to sail the Order to Antioch or Adana. It will require no additional expenditure. All it would require is that those settlements be added to the list in Edict 1.2. Rhodes and Smyrna should be taken by those closer to those lands, such as our fellow nobles in House Asteri. Since the Order has no close targets in Edict 1.2, and what we ask will cost no extra money, I do not think is it unreasonable to ask that the Emperor be allowed to send us to the Holy Land if he wishes. To do otherwise would bind his hands.
The list in Edict 1.2 seems arbitrary anyways. Many settlements used to be under Justinian's Empire. Yet many are missing from the list. All we ask is that we be allowed to do our part.
Comes Ksanthopoulos, I think I must be slightly drunk, for I fear that I have just heard you say that the reason the Empire should move on Antioch is because doing otherwise would be 'unfair' to the Order. This must be wrong, for I know that a chivalrous Order such as yours would never place personal glory over the needs of the Empire. I hope I have misheard or misunderstood your statements.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 20:11
Looking at Savvas and then letting his gaze rest on many other senators:
I find your lack of faith disturbing, Senator. Letting heathens rampage the Holy Lands which were once part of the Empire as a military tactic is more the talk of a heretic then that of a true servant of Rome. I believe edict 1.2 should simply state: any land which does not belong to a foreign power.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 20:23
Makedonios just stares at Strator Khristophoros Diogenis
This isn't about what is fair. This is about using the tools you have. We are very close to some rebel provinces. But those provinces are not on a certain list. So you have actually asked me in a personal letter to sail very far away and take other rebel provinces.
All I have asked is that the Emperor be given the option to let the Order go to the Holy Land this term. But you have seen fit to tell the Emperor by an edict what he can and can't do.
If your done with your pointless attempts to pull me into a verbal sparring match, perhaps we can discuss real business.
I say let the Emperor decide what will be taken. But if you insist on binding his hands with edicts, then at least make sure there are options for everyone.
I will make this very clear. The Order will not sail to Rhodes. It is too far to get a real force there within a term. Others are closer, so they can take it. Now I ask again that you either;
a.) withdrawl your edict and let the Emperor choose what to take or
b.) add Antioch and/or Adana to the edict so we can sail there within 1 year.
If you don't, I will propose an edict to add Antioch to Edict 1.2 if it passes.
But the Order will not spend more than a decade taking an island in the middle of the Mediterranean that other Houses are closer to all because a certain Strator wishes it so.
And no attempt to insult the integrity of the Order by that Strator will convince me otherwise.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 20:36
Frankly it astonishes me to hear a noble senator of this body propose that we should avoid Antioch because the Turks are interested in it. The Turks are also interested in Constantinople, should we abandon it to them in terror? Indeed, I would venture to say the Turks are interested in almost all of the territories on that list. To be quite honest I doubt that we could take Trebizond before they do even in theory, is Trebizond thus to be striken from the list?
No, it is madness to shrink from butchering rebels that trouble our borders and claim trade that should be ours just because that's what the Turks might want.
Rhodes is obviously an important province, but it is also a sink for money with no extant infrastructure and minimal prospects for producing income. If our goal is, as the author of the Edict suggests, to save money then Rhodes is the last place we must capture.
:egypt:
Makedonios Ksanthopoulos,
If you say you will not come west, and further claim that it will require no Imperial expenditure for you to go about your mission, then I suggest you propose a compromise of the following form:
*This is not an Edict*: The Order of St. John is allowed to attack any rebel target even if not listed in Edict 1.2, but no imperial money may be used to support this effort until Edict 1.2 is otherwise fulfilled.
I believe this would be an acceptable compromise as you will not help fulfill Edict 1.2 anyway, and you will get your targets authorized, but we will be sure that this effort will not detract from our efforts to secure the heartland of the Empire.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 20:46
Makedonios turns to Vissarionas,
It's even worse than that. Strator Khristophoros is acting as if he is the Emperor himself. Giving out territories and deciding which ones people can and can not take. He has "graciously" promised me Rhodes and Smyrna even though those provinces are years away. Somehow I doubt he consulted the head of the House that is actually next door to Rhodes and Smyrna.
Then he arbitrarily decides that some provinces should not be taken this term. Worse than that, Edict 1.2 actually means the the Emperor himself can not decide what provinces to take unless they are on Strator Khristophoros's list. I would find the gall of the man amusing if it wasn't such a serious subject we were discussing.
I'm amazed that some of the very men who were so quick to swear allegiance to the Emperor's empty chair are now saying the Emperor can't be trusted to pick what province to attack first.
Strator Ksanthopoulos, please do not spread falsehoods in the Senate. I no more "promised" you Rhodes and Smyrna than I granted myself Rome. I was simply suggesting to you a manner in which the Order could be militarily active. My precise words were as follows:
There is no shortage of work that the Order can do at the present time. You hold the only center of professional military recruitment in the East and a fleet stands nearby to transport some of your men. The Order is superbly placed to lead the reconquest of Rhodes and Smyrna, so there is no need for you men to be overlooked or inactive.
Followed shortly afterwards by...
I do wish to point out that my Edict most certainly does not freeze your men on Cyprus. There is no difference whatsoever in taking ship west to Rhodes and Smyrna rather than east to Adana and Antioch.
I do not know how you think either of those statements can promise you anything at all. Furthermore, I am very confused by your statements about the Basileus. You seem to think that the mere act of proposing legislation is an affront to the Basileus himself. If that is true, why does the Senate even exist?
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 20:58
Because your offer is absurd my good sir. You've pulled a few province names off of a map and decided that those are the ones the Emperor can take. And the others he can't until your list is satisfied.
No falsehood has been spread. I suggest you follow your own advice. Your use of "red herrings" and "weasel words" is unbecoming a Senator.
But you keep avoiding my larger point. And that is that the Emperor should be allowed to decide if the Order can or can not take Antioch this term. For some reason, you've decided that the Emperor can not decide that unless he meets your Edict's list of "demands" first.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 20:59
Anastasios sulks in his chair, muttering to himself. He seems to regret having even set foot in the Senate.
Why are we sitting here prattling about politics and influence rather then putting our enemies to the sword… Worthless paper-pushers, all of them.
Comes Ksanthopoulos, I believe it is you who puts the interests of his Order above the interests of the Empire.
It is clear that first, we need to get back what is ours, then we can start other conquests. Your personal ambitions are of lesser importance.
And Vissarionas ek Lesvou, nobody here said that we should leave the Holy Lands to the Turks. It was only suggested to let the heathen dogs slaughter each other while we are reconquering our Empire and gaining strength to take over the Holy Land and its' surroundings. Surely, you don't have a problem with heathens killing each other, do you?
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 21:02
Antioch was Byzantine property for years.
This has nothing to do with ambition. It has to do with one man thinking he can tell the Emperor what he can and can not take. Who is the ambitious one eh?
Antioch was Byzantine property for years.
This has nothing to do with ambition. It has to do with one man thinking he can tell the Emperor what he can and can not take. Who is the ambitious one eh?
How does merely proposing an Edict equals ordering the Basileus what he has to do?
Your accusation is absurd.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 21:11
Because if the Edict passes, then the Emperor has to follow it or risk impeachment. Read the rules of the Senate before you accuse me of being absurd.
I think Anastasios has a point about replacing the list in Edict 1.2 with "any land which does not belong to a foreign power."
This would solve at least some of the concerns Strator Khristophoros has. It would prevent war from being declared upon a foreign power this term. Which is a much more reasonable request than making up an arbitrary list which coincidently has most of the provinces next to his own House.
Because if the Edict passes, then the Emperor has to follow it or risk impeachment. Read the rules of the Senate before you accuse me of being absurd.
The Edict will only pass if enough support has been gained.
It's how these sessions work.
After refusing to swear allegiance to our Basileus, you now question the workings and the purpose of the Senate?
I don't want to use the word "traitor" in this sacred place, but...
Savvas stares at Makedonios in disbelief.
You go too far, Comes Ksanthopoulos. Most of the provinces next to my own House? The only provinces which are closer to Corinth than any other House are Arta and Bari, and it took a member of another House to convince me to include Bari on that list! Every other province is closer to another House, including your own!
The list has most of the provinces next to Constantinople. Capturing Antioch will do nothing to secure the Empire, and will only detract from it if resource have to be expended to defend it. It is even more remote and isolated than the other cities, and you propose to stretch us even more thinly than we already are.
I must say, I wonder if you, good Comes Ksanthopoulos, are merely an incompetent strategician, motivated by potential for personal gain, or blinded by faith (in some odd way where you put Antioch in front of Constantinople, which is the seat of the Patriarch of Constantinople, who is the primary one of them all, and more important than he who now sits in Antioch). I am very curious which of these it is, and why you have found my attempt at a compromise so unaccepable as to completely ignore it.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 21:24
Strator Savvas,
But if it passes, then the Emperor's hands are tied.
As for the word "traitor", you bandy it about so freely it loses all meaning.
By the way, speaking of reading Senate rules, you should probably do so before you propose edicts that should be Charter Amendments.
Strator Khristophoros,
Closer to Cyprus? Did you even look at a map before creating your list?
I can't wait until the Emperor appears and restores some order and sanity to this place.
And you are still avoiding the issue. What do you think about Strator Anastasios's idea on replacing the list with "any land which does not belong to a foreign power." Or has this gotten too personal for you to remain objective in carrying out your duties?
Comes Markianos Ampelas,
Antioch is a vital strategic front for the Empire. And we need to get there before other nations do. As for your compromise, I rather we add in Strator Anastasios's wording or scrap the Edict altogether.
I'm waiting to see if Strator Khristophoros will stop ignoring Anastasios's suggestion and actually debate it or if he will continue with the ad hominum attacks.
PrinceofTroy
06-02-2008, 21:30
Koulianos Vorzous steps into the crowded area
'I apologize for my lateness, roads aren't what they used to be."
[I]Quickly he looks for the Order and finding it, goes and sits with them./I]
Strator Savvas,
But if it passes, then the Emperor's hands are tied.
If it passes, then that is the will of the Senate and by consequence in the interest of the Empire. It is not up to any of us, Senators, to question the Senate itself, which is what you were implying, my dear Comes.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 21:33
Strator Savvas,
So what your saying is, that it is ok to swear allegiance to the Emperor's empty seat, but we can not trust him to exercise his judgement in his duties as Megas?
Your idea of loyalty is most interesting.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 21:35
Vissarionas is somewhat annoyed at being ignored, so he repeats himself, sounding a bit strident and pedantic.
I will say again, not only is Antioch more easily defended than every other province on this list, it is richer than any three of them put together. All of this talk of stretching to protect the city and expending resources on it are bald political gambits with no basis in reality.
Furthermore I see no signs that by surrendering the wealth of Antioch to the infidels we will encourage them to slaughter one another. More provinces seperate their two nations from each other than are even on this silly list which has been proposed.
As noted by the Grandmaster, we will require no Imperial funds to aid in the defense of the city beyond the wages for the men already in service. Antioch will immediately be profitable. The Order has not suggested anything but the most direct and effective use of the forces already in the region. To move men and material out of the Adana/Antioch theatre and in any other direction is somewhat more costly immediately and dramatically less profitable in the long run.
:egypt:
Comes Ksanthopoulos, I am happy to answer your question. I will not add "any land which does not belong to a foreign power" to my Edict, because it would allow to conquest of places such as Antioch. I firmly believe that using our limited resources in such places is not a good idea. We must secure the provinces around our core cities for the defense and prosperity of the Empire. The change that you request would allow us to conquer Ireland if someone was mad enough to attempt it. The whole purpose of the Edict is to focus our immediate efforts on those conquests which will give the greatest benefit to the Empire. Your very opposition to the Edict is the reason why it is needed in the first place. If we allow anyone to go about conquering whatever they please, then our resources will be stretched thin and the Empire will be left vulnerable.
Strator Savvas,
So what your saying is, that it is ok to swear allegiance to the Emperor's empty seat, but we can not trust him to exercise his judgement in his duties as Megas?
Your idea of loyalty is most interesting.
The Basileus being physically absent does not mean his seat is empty, Comes.
And as for the duties of the Megas, well, isn't executing the Edicts voted by the Senate one of his duties?
Strator ek Lesvou, you are now the second man to say that Antioch can be conquered without the expenditure of a single coin from the treasury. The wise Markianos Ampelas has already suggested an Edict which you could propose that would formalize this statement. If you mean what you say, then propose the Edict. I will second it without hesitation.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 21:43
Good Sir Diogenis add Antioch to your list and I will instantly propose just such an edict in my own words. Without Antioch on the list is there truly any need for an edict to point out that defending it costs us nothing?
:egypt:
But my friend, adding Antioch to the list would authorize the expenditure of Imperial funds for its conquest. Both you and your Lord have stated that such funds are not needed. Why then can you not simply propose the Edict suggested by our colleague? It would accomplish your goals and I give you my word that I will wholeheartedly support it.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 21:47
Strator Khristophoros,
I thank you for finally laying out your logic regarding the proposed amendment to your edict. But I have to disagree with some points.
1.) Letting the Order head to Antioch will not lead the Empire down the road to ruin. What we ask is meager and most reasonable.
2.) Sending the Order anywhere else is inefficient for all involved. Other Houses can reach Rhodes and Smyrna faster and with larger forces than we can.
3.) Going to Antioch would not be "allow[ing] anyone to go about conquering whatever they please." It could only be done with the express permission of the Emperor himself. If the Emperor does not see the wisdom of such a move, then it simply will not happen this term.
Since we;
a.) already have the army,
b.) already have the ships,
c.) are only one year away, and
d.) are years away from any target on your list,
I again ask that the Emperor be given the option of letting the Order head to Antioch immediately. We ask for little. If we were next door to one of these "core" provinces, I would be more agreeable to what you propose. But were not. Just look at the map. It would take years for 2 ships to shuttle the Order over to Rhodes or Smyrna. We could have Antioch under siege in just a couple years. And we can hold it.
As for an edict that promises no money will be spent, again that will bind the hands of the Emperor. I think we can do it for free. But, what if we need a single mercenary regiment? No one else is expected to conduct war for no cost. I can only promise it will be "cheap", not free. It may require a peasent from Nicosia or a Turcopoles from Antioch. Again, it would be entirely up to the Emperor.
Ah, so now Imperial funds are needed. Why then did you claim they were not?
It is interesting, good Comes of the Cypriots, how at first your proposal to attack Antioch required "no additional expenditure", but is now "cheap" but not free, and how, perhaps, when the Turks and Saracens are bearing down on newly Roman Antioch in great numbers, it may become "expensive." This is all we fear, and your increase in budget requested does nothing to encourage us.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 22:00
They "might" be needed. War is unpredictable. You ask for guarentees, but war promises none. I wouldn't want any of you to be left vulnerable for want of a single regiment.
What about this;
Antioch, Bari, and Trebizond may be included in this list at the discretion of the Megas Logothetes.
This leaves it up to the Emperor but does not forbid it. It also does not forbid him from spending a florin to help us if it is needed. If he can spend florins to help take Bari and Trebizond, then why not Antioch? It would still require the "core" provinces to be taken.
This compromise still "directs" the Emperor to take certain provinces, but it leaves the Order's province to be at his discretion. If the Emperor approves of it, I would vote on such a compromise. If he didn't, then I would vote against it because it would be binding his own hands against his wishes.
How does this sound Strator Khristophoros Diogenis?
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 22:01
Again the shocking reliance on the presumed cowardice of this body in the face of the Turks? One wonders if the opponents of the Order actually intend to see battle at all, or just huddle in our few remaining cities trying to make the rest of us see the glory and goodness of appeasing the infidel!
I would happily propose that edict and take for granted that your word was good Sir Diogenis, except for the simple fact that you have repeatedly argued in the face of facts for your own political benefit. Making a fool of me by ignoring my proposal after it was made would also be to your political benefit. Therefore it seems obvious that if I did propose such an edict you would simply refuse to edit your own and count it a 'victory' against the Order that I wasted an edict which might otherwise simply read (OOC: This is not an edict!) Edict blah.blah Antioch can be conquered.
...turning now to the other members at the Order table,
Gentlemen given the inadequacy of practical support for this edict I am of a mind now to simply leave it as is and let it come to a vote, if the Grandmaster feels such is appropriate of course.
Comes Ksanthopoulos, it sounds like you need to have someone propose that Edict for you. I will not include Antioch in my Edict because I believe it is in the Empire's best interests to retake the provinces immediately surrounding the core provinces before any other expenditures are authorized. I would sooner delete Bari and Trebizond from the Edict altogether than add Antioch. If you wish such an Edict, I suggest you propose it yourself.
Ituralde
06-02-2008, 22:05
Pavlos raises and speaks to the assembled nobles.
"Alright, let's make this simple. I propose the following.
Edict 1.3:
A Priest is to be sent in the region surrounding Caesarea to help our Orthodox brethern against their Muslim overlords.
Maybe that's something we all can agree on then, this endless discussion is tiring me. My seconding for Edict 1.2 stands, although I would have preferred Trebizond to stay on that list, I can see the merrits of it. Let's just put it to the vote and be done with it.
All this bloody talk of binding the Basileus hands is getting on my nerves. If we're not here to guide him through Edicts we might just leave right now and be bloody happy about it!"
If I may suggest another compromise, let Bari, Trebizond, and Antioch be included in the list after the cities of the primary list have all been captured.
Once again, Markianos Ampelas proves to be the wisest of all. I would agree to his proposed alteration. Would that satisfy the Order?
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 22:08
Comes Markianos Ampelas, since the Order can not reach any of the targets in a timely manner, I prefer if the Emperor be given leave to decide whether the Order can take Antioch.
Edict 1.4: If Edict 1.2 passes, Antioch can be conquered at the Megas discretion.
And I second Edict 1.3.
*edit*
Edict 1.4 has been amended and re-seconded.
Cannot reach any targets in a timely manner? That is absurd. Rhodes is equidistant between Athens and Cyprus, it will take the Order no more time to reach it than the House of Asteri, less time, in fact, since the Order has ships immediately available and Asteri does not. It could easily be conquered with enough time to return to Cyprus for your preparations for Outremer. With so many vassals under your command it would even be a minor task to detach one or two with a small army to move on Smyrna as well, without greatly impacting your ability to field an army in Outremer.
Comes Markianos Ampelas, since the Order can not reach any of the targets in a timely manner, I prefer if the Emperor be given leave to decide whether the Order can take Antioch.
I assure you, Comes Ksanthopoulos, Grandmaster of the most noble Order, that an argument based on what the Order can and cannot reach in what manner of time will hold little sway with those who chose to remain and defend the Empire rather than establish themselves on far and isolated Cyprus.
In any case, we seem to be past the point where we can agree on a compromise. Let the majority decide what is best for the Empire then. I apologize in advance, but I will campaign against your Edict, for reasons outlined already.
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 22:23
Strator Khristophoros,
You really haven't studied the maps have you?
There are exactly 2 ships off of Cyprus. How is a force supposed to take both Rhodes and Smyrna if 2 ships can only carry 1 general and 3 regiments? And a round trip to get reinforcements would take years.
Requiring the core provinces to be taken first means we will have to wait as they are taken. What if the Emperor sees fit to allow us to move on Antioch before those core cities are taken? Comes Markianos's amendment would prevent that from happening.
I rather have the Senate vote on both Edict 1.2 and 1.4. If both pass, then the Emperor can decide for himself "if" and "when" to take Antioch.
OOC: In a couple hours I'm going to go home and play this out on the computer. I want to see just how many years an invasion of Rhodes and Smyrna would take from Cyprus. :beam:
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 22:25
Senator Ampelas, your suggestion of waiting until all the other provinces of edict 1.2 are conquered before moving on Bari is ineffective and pointless.
I have stated that the castle can be taken and secured with little more then a hundred men. I stand by that statement. If we wait, we will only allow the Normans to secure their position in southern Italy and they will be free to move against our holdings in Epirus. It would be much wiser logistically to ensure imperial control over Apulia rather then let it slip to a belligerent faction. The Norman aggression that began in Italy will not likely stop there. We should be ready to meet them when they come.
Given the extremely small allocation of resources this task requires, the only reason anyone would back from it is cowardice. And I dare hope, that in this place, no one counts as a coward.
Ramses II CP
06-02-2008, 22:28
I second edict 1.4.
As obviously, Comes Ampelas, we will campaign against the hamstringing edict 1.2. Nor is it necessary to tell us that the sun is shining, the grass is green, or the sea salty.
Viassarionas mutters loudly,
By God I yearn for the day when I have an opponent with a straight swords and no time for curved words.
:egypt:
Iakovos can take it no longer and stands up sharply.
Enough! My fellow Strator Khristophoros, you argue against the siezing of Antioch on a monetary basis, yet do you have a cost-by-cost analysis of the amount spent if say the Order where to take Rhodes versus Antioch? If it is indeed less expensive, cheaper, and actually brings in coin for the Empire, as you are so adamant about doing, then the most profitable action should be taken, regardless.
Second, How is Rhodes a "front" of the Empire? May I ask how the Turks on Anatolia plan on exploiting it to further threaten the Empire? The Egyptians? The Venetians, particularly with Crete so more easily available and more profitable?
May I also ask why we are discussing funding of it to begin with? Will you not send money and aid to those provinces which we are recapturing? All of these conquests will require effort, time, and money, and yet your willing to deny a venture which most likely will not impact the Imperial purse to begin with!
I say Antioch would provide a greater strategic, logistic, and monetary benefit then the vast majority of the cities listed in Edict 1.2. Antioch, as has been mentioned, is highly defensible with minimal manpower, is a rich and prosperous city, and can reap a benefit faster then say Rhodes or even Smyrna can within the same time frame, nevermind the logistical mess mentioned by Comes Makedonios of transporting the troops back and forth from Cyprus.
I second Edict 1.4 as well
I second Edicts 2, 3 and 4 and propose:
Edict 1.5: The training of a boat or hiring of a mercenary craft is required outside of Athens in order to transport men to Rhodes, as per Edict 1.2. The fleet we already own further North may also be used if it has no other orders.
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 22:35
I second Edict 1.5.
In anycase, I will say it again. If the Order were to seize Antioch immediately it would be the other Houses who would benefit most. Certainly a large percentage of the income from that region would go to fund the conquest of other nearby provinces.
Kagemusha
06-02-2008, 22:41
Ioannis Kantakouzinos returns to the diet, walks to the speakers place and addresses the audience, after briefly checking from his scribe what has been said.
"I would still advice the honourable parties to wait for the Basileus. As far as i know, there are no Nobles who have private armies and the Basileus and Caesar are the only ones who have Imperial army in their possession. Those who have the man power should be first to decide how it will be used"
Kantakouzinos sits down among the Komnendoukai
Privateerkev
06-02-2008, 22:43
I second edict: 1.5
I will amend Edict 1.4 to read: If Edict 1.2 passes, Antioch will be added to the list.
My sergeants have a point with regards to the money that Antioch will bring in. I admit I don't normally think in such a way, but obviously some do.
The Emperor can still decide on the order that the settlements are conquered. If we're going to insist on imposing a list on the Emperor, we might as well include cities that will generate income.
Sergeants, I am afraid I will need your seconds again.
Though I am not a seegeant I will second Edict 1.4 again. More land for the Empire is never a bad thing and people who think it is are similar to those responsible for our Empire falling to this bedraggled state.
And I will second 1.4 again as well.
Cecil XIX
06-02-2008, 22:57
I second Edict 1.4 in it's current form.
The Lemongate
06-02-2008, 23:17
I propose Edict 1.6 That a ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry a commander and a battalion of spearmen to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari.
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 00:19
Having resumed leaning against the wall near the entrance while listening to the ongoing debate the young Saracen looking officer moves again near the inner circle to speak.
His voice is measured and firm.
I have a question for this body of men.
Recent preaching’s by the Orthodox church here in Byzantium has lead to rumours of the current Catholic Pope considering calling for a Crusade to the Holy Land.
Would those here support this move by the Western Nations and the Catholic church or not?
Again the young officer takes a few measured steps back and waits for a response.
pevergreen
06-03-2008, 00:28
Michail rises, slowly taking his eyes off the young officer.
"A catholic presence in the area around Antioch will prove...difficult. I think it would be wise to wait a while, rather than risk the fury that would be a Crusade."
Michail, as he speaks, walks past the general populace of the Magnaura. His eyes contain barely hidden anger as he passes Philippos and Savvas, dropping what seems to be piece of cloth into their hands. As he passes them, his face returns to its normal feature. Impassive.His eyes reveal more though, a cold calculation like a vengance has begun.
Markianos Ampelas stands and faces the Saracen
I have a question for you as well. You will have to excuse me, but the combination of your appearance and your admission to this building by the guards is most perplexing. If you do not mind it, would you tell us who you are, how you are here, and why you are dressed in such a manner?
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 00:42
Makedonios first turns to Anastasios Neokaisareitis.
While I am not sure, Edict 1.2 as it stands would make it optional for the Megas to take Bari. If you would like to present an edict that adds Bari to the list, you can amend yours to be more like Edict 1.4.
Otherwise, I fear the passage of Edict 1.2 might cancel out Edict 1.6 as it is written.
I hope this helps.
He then turns to Apionnas Vringas.
The Order opposes the Catholic Crusades. The Holy Land is not to be held by Muslims or Catholics. But by the Empire. This is why I feel so urgent in needing to get over to Antioch now. I am starting to hear rumors that the Catholic Pope will call for more Franks to invade the Holy Land.
Before you know it, even the Germans will be over there. And I think we can all agree that is something we do not want. (OOC: :wink: )
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 00:47
Thank you for your responses Strator Arianitis and Comes Ksanthopoulos. I take it then that the Order of St John will oppose western Crusades travelling through Byzantine lands?
Turning, the young officer bows his head in the direction of Markianos Ampelas.
I have many names but the one that is of most relvance here is Apionnas Vringas. My father was a member of the Byzantine nobility until his death some decade ago.
I am however an officer in the recently disgrace Mansuriyya slave regiment of the Mamluk Sultan of Egypt.
What I am wearing is our uniform.
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 00:55
Strator Apionnas Vringas,
First off, I wish to welcome you back home. I've done some reading on the Saracens and I thought I recognized your clothing but I didn't feel right asking about it.
Second, to answer your question, I can see no good that could come from letting Catholic Crusader armies onto our lands. No good at all.
Kagemusha
06-03-2008, 01:00
So Makedonios Ksanthopoulos, if the Franks launch a crusade to the holy land, we should kill them in order to prevent them from reaching the Outremer?
Markianos Ampelas nods at Apionnas Vringas.
Yes, very good then. I shall address your question. Anyone who attacks the Turks and Saracens is a friend of mine. If the westerners wish to fight them, I welcome them, with two reservations: firstly, I would be cautious about the strategic situation their conquest of the holy land would put the Empire in, assuming them to be friendly to us only as long as it benefits their interests. Secondly, I would prefer that the old Patriarchates be brought back under our Church, and not follow the apostate in Rome, though even that would be better than to have them in Muslim hands.
Ampelas sits down, still keeping an eye on Vringas. It is obvious he is somewhat uncomfortable with that man's... Saracenness? Saracenicty?
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 01:06
Makedonios turns to Ioannis Kantakouzinos,
No, we should stop them from entering Byzantine land period. I do not trust Catholic Crusader armies. They do not see us as Christians. Therefore, we will not be exempt from their depravity. Regardless of the Catholics Crusade's target, a Catholic Crusader Army should not be allowed within the Empire's borders. Ever.
Kagemusha
06-03-2008, 01:10
Makedonios Ksanthopoulos, that is not an answer. Do you really think that if the Western pope calls for a crusade and all the Western petty kingdoms join it, or even some of them, once reaching our land they will just turn around when we send messengers to them telling them to turn around?
Is it worth a war with other Christians, to try and stop them from fighting the Saracens?
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 01:14
Catholic Crusade armies can not attack Catholic cities and armies. But we are not Catholic. So, if a Catholic Crusader army feels like sacking an Orthodox city, they can and the Pope will not say a word against it.
No, I simply see no reason for letting large numbers of Catholics wander around the Empire.
Kagemusha
06-03-2008, 01:20
Well then i must understand that as yes to my original question. Maybe it would be better to relocate the brotherhood in that case to the Western border of the Empire in order to "stop" the western Crusaders when they come and leave it to the other armies of Empire to claim back the outremer.
Ioannis takes his seat.
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 01:23
Catholic Crusader armies are a threat to the whole empire. We are not protected from attack by the Pope like the Catholics are.
deguerra
06-03-2008, 01:28
Ioannis Kalameteros enters, dust from the road still on his coat from a hard ride. He walks over to the section of House Asteri, reads over what has been said thus far and rises to speak
Strators,
Without meaning disrespect, there has been too much beating around the bush. It is clear that what we all want is quite simple, and I believe by stating it outright we are making things less confusing.
We need land. The Empire is but a shadow of its past glory and that needs to be rectified, and the factions and it's members need lands to call their home. This is the main objective. Obviously, we cannot pass an edict to conquer the world, since this is unfeasible. We need some sort of restraint, in terms of distance and expense.
In that faculty, I believe edict 1.2, as amended by edict 1.4 to be perfect. It grants the Basielos the flexibility to expand, and seems to satisfy all the factions' more immediate need for land. If the Order is intent on Antioch, and are as capable of capturing it quickly and effectively as they claim, I see no reason for denying them.
Edict 1.1 is useless. I hereby swear allegiance and loyalty to Aleksios Komenus, pistos en Christō tō Theō Basileus Autokratōr Rōmaiōn, to serve and obey to my life's end so help me God. There is no need for a formal edict. This is a matter of personal preference, not one for the senate.
I would also like to formally endorse and second Edict 1.6, although I would prefer it changed to fit into the scope of Edict 1.2.
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 01:44
The young officer finishes writing a small note and hands it to an official before again moving slightly into the chambers inner circle to make further comment.
My Lords I do not wish to cause any further reason for agitation here in this chamber.
It seems most are clear about not wanting to admit Crusading Catholic Armies into these lands, the real issue seems to be about how best refuse them admittance without cause further conflict.
I would state at this time that this issue may need an solid answer faster than most here think.
The Turks are already active and the wheels of war are turning towards inevitable conflict. I would choose who to fight and who not to fight before the choices are made for you all.
Perhaps the Basileus could request the Patriarch tone down his preaching’s and requests for assitance towards the Catholic Pope?
GeneralHankerchief
06-03-2008, 01:57
Patriarchal Representative:
My Lords, I bring word that His Eminence Nicholas III, Patriarch of Constantinople, has completed a Proclamation regarding his thoughts on the direction that the Byzantine Empire and the Orthodox faith should take in the coming years. I expect that it will make its way to the Magnaura shortly.
BananaBob
06-03-2008, 02:11
Nathanail ek Korinthou has seemed thoroughly disenfranchised by the discussion taking place, but his face grows more and more engaged in the debate around him as it appears to reaching some sort of resolution. He stands to speak, and says with a clam and steady voice:
Do not be mistaken, Ioannis Kantakouzinos, and think that the latins and their vulgar take on the word of the lord are our friends! They and their pope are no better then the turks that threaten our very borders as we speak! That very same pope does Byzantium grave insult by not recognizing us as the sucessors of the Roman Empire. Both the Catholics and Muslims are fanatic and dangerous foes that cannot be trusted.
We are the inheritors of the greatest civilization that mankind has seen. When the west fell, we remained strong. And, as harsh a reality as it may be, great Byzantium herself may be nothing more then a memory in merely decades if we do nothing to stop our present decline. I can fully support our need to reclaim as many provinces as possible to reestablish a foothold in the east. Whatever steps necessary must be taken to stop the ignorance of the east and west from plundering the empire, I will endorse.
Nathanail pauses and looks gravely to his fellow senators.
But we cannot forget that our culture, our great religion and the knowledge we have inherited are equally important to the well being of our empire. The Order of St.John was founded on this principle. Our purpose is to protect the birthplace of our lord from the grubby hands of barbarians, to preserve our great Orthodox faith -with military power if necessary- and to ensure that the places that mean so much to Byzantium and her people are safeguarded. I cannot see how the restoration of our empire cannot include the conquest of Outremer. It is more important to us then any material holding, as it our very identity that is at risk along side our borders.
He pauses, catching his breath.
Surely you all must see this?
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 02:17
Raising his eyebrows at the mentioning of Muslim fanatics the young Saracen officer gazes around the chamber waiting for a response to Strator's proclamation.
pevergreen
06-03-2008, 02:26
Michail rises
"I see Nathanail, that we must conquer Outremer in time. There is no doubt that we must take Antioch and Jerusalem, but more pressing issues are here. Am I correct in my question that current edicts are still valid after this term? If we were to pass an edict now, relating to the capture of Outremer, will it stay in effect?
Come george, take this note."
Michail seats himself, and expecting glance fixating on a few members, then the doorway.
The Lemongate
06-03-2008, 02:33
Makedonios first turns to Anastasios Neokaisareitis.
While I am not sure, Edict 1.2 as it stands would make it optional for the Megas to take Bari. If you would like to present an edict that adds Bari to the list, you can amend yours to be more like Edict 1.4.
Otherwise, I fear the passage of Edict 1.2 might cancel out Edict 1.6 as it is written.
I hope this helps.
Ah good Comes, I hate to correct you here, but in legal matters, the exception always defies the general rule. Should both edicts 1.2 and 1.6 pass, 1.6 clearly marks an exception to 1.2 and so supersedes it in regards to its specific text.
Pointless debate really. But we're in a Civil Law system and that would be the result. Don't make me dig out historical examples, it'd give me headaches.
deguerra
06-03-2008, 02:35
Need I remind Anastasios that I have already seconded and endorsed his edict?
GeneralHankerchief
06-03-2008, 02:42
Patriarchal Representative:
My Lords, the Proclamation of 1081 has been released. I have been directed by my master to address and respond to any words directed at it.
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 02:46
After receiving another note from an official, the Saracen officer moves from the back of the chamber and approaches the seated form of Strator Michail.
There is a moments hesitation as the young officer seems to consider something, but it passes quickly. He reaches out a hand and touches the shoulder of the seated Strator.
They take each others wrists in the traditional warriors grip.
As-salam alaykum Sadiq. Thank you for your invitation.
With that the officer takes a seat next to the Strator.
The Lemongate
06-03-2008, 02:47
Lol, sorry, missed it :beam:
There, there, I corrected the rant :yes:
pevergreen
06-03-2008, 02:53
Michail has a half-smile on his face, quite happy that his new friend has taken him up on his offer. Looking around at the shocked faces, he looks each of those shocked Senators in the eyes, showing he is not intimidated. He has a copy of the Patriachial Proclamation in front of him, and after reading through it, he stands:
"What the Patriach suggests, will not work. A display of strength may show us as a threat, forcing the Catholic nations into a fight. We should, dear Senators, wait until they have either taken or failed in trying to take the area. Then whoever remains will be weakened. It is for the good of the empire gentlemen."
GeneralHankerchief
06-03-2008, 03:11
Patriarchal Representative:
If we wait until the Catholics have taken the East then they will be surrounding us and nothing will prevent us from being swallowed up.
A strike in the exact opposite direction from the Catholics should not concern them greatly, if at all.
Ignoramus
06-03-2008, 03:22
Ioannis Komnenos seizes a pause in the debate to stand up and address the Senate.
Senators, have we so soon forgotten the lesson of Manzikert? Antioch is a city, indeed a most important city, but what is a city worth if it cannot be defended? It is madness to even think of recapturing Antioch until all of Anatolia has been returned to the Roman fold. Only then, can any occupation of Antioch be sustainable.
Patience is required, senators. The most important task is to restore the frontier in Anatolia, not to go on private expeditions against isolated cities.
I second edicts 1.2 and 1.3.
The Caesar resumes his seat.
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 03:37
Makedonios reads the Proclamtion and ponders it carefully. He then unrolls many large maps on the table.
First off, let me say that I welcome the wise words of His Eminence Nicholas III.
Unfortunately, as I have learned today, not everyone is swayed by religious arguments.
I have looked into the neighboring rebel provinces. Here they are, plus a couple that have been mentioned in the Senate. Also, I have the approximate number of regiments guarding each place. I have grouped them into settlement types to make a point.
Village:
Durazzo: 3
Motte and Bailey:
Smyrna: 5
Adana: 6
Town:
Sinop: 4
Wooden Castle:
Sofia: 7
Scopia: 7
Bari: 6
Arta: 6
Rhodes: 3
Canakkale: 5
Trebisond: 4
Minor City:
Antioch: 7
As you can see, Antioch will become the second biggest city in Byzantium when it is captured. While the other rebel settlements are important, it will be some time before they are generating much income. While some will be kept as castles, most will have to be converted to cities, which will in itself cost money.
So this idea that taking Antioch is a waste of money is simply not true.
The Order can besiege this city with 8 units that we already have, by "turn 2". By "turn 3", we will have 2 more units in the army and 2 standing by as reinforcements. Then it is just a matter of waiting the garrison out or, if we feel we have the advantage, assault the city. If we siege, we will have Antioch by "turn 8." And that is with the units that are already on Cyprus.
We can do this.
As for defending Antioch, there are exactly 3 ways in. A river crossing to the north, a river crossing to the east, and Tortosa to the south. And Tortosa is only a wooden castle with some pilgrims and a couple of generals. And they can only recruit peasants. The rest of Antioch's neighbors are "rebels". Petty local warlords.
So not only can we take it, but we can hold it.
All we need is the chance to prove it.
deguerra
06-03-2008, 03:41
I must say I agree that taking both Antioch and Anatolia seems rather feasible. Indeed, by taking Antioch are we not adding much needed income to our treasuries, income which can then be used to retake the rest of Anatolia from the heathen Turks?
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 03:48
Once we start getting men to preach "the word", we can raise taxes in Antioch to the point where it will become one of the most profitable cities in the Empire within a few "turns".
Would not the costs of defending Antioch from the Christians, Turks, and Saracen's be more than the city will gain? If the Saracen's or another country destroy your navy, what then?
Ramses II CP
06-03-2008, 04:04
Vissarionas has warmed to his topic now, and speaks without restraint or hesitation. His cheeks color, not with embarassment, but with passion, and his voice rises a notch towards shrill excitement.
I am extremely disappointed to continue to hear respected men in this chamber suggest that Antioch cannot be defended. What general looking at the terrain around that city could fail to see the possibilities? I say Antioch could be held against all comers, and I intend put my sword arm in harm's way to prove it.
Why, the Patriarch himself can see the justice in our cause, and who here would gainsay God's chosen messenger?
Saying Antioch cannot be defended is a blatant political fraud. Saying one of the richest trade cities in the world is too expensive to capture is another. Saying that we should appease the Turks and let them take it is at best a poor political gambit, and at worst cowardice!
With this last comment the young man appears to realize quite suddenly where he is, and whom he has been addressing. With a brief glance at Caesar Ioannis Komnenos Vissarionas excuses himself from the Order's table and adjourns to gather his wits and control in their chambers off the Senate floor.
:egypt:
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 04:06
Philippos Eirinikos,
I am confident that in the long term, the money generated will more than pay for the cost to defend it. If we move soon, we will have some time to prepare and dig in.
Northnovas
06-03-2008, 04:20
Aleksios ek Ikoniou walks in the Magnaura with a clerk behind carrying documents and maps. He sees members of his House sitting at the designated area and then looks over to the Basileus seat and sees that it is empty. He has been told much has been happening but relieved that he is not late.
Dressed smartly in a military attire of a number one dress he bares no arms. He notices the young Caesar seated and walks before him and gives a deep bow.
“Greeting Caesar!”
The young Comes walks to the centre of the floor.
Strators, I see the debates have started and in good fashion. There has been a lot of debate and that is good to see. I see the members of my House have been busy and I encourage them to participate. For men showing enthusiasm and hard work will be rewarded in the Tamagata House. I would ask like all members in this chamber to be respectful of members with some authority and title. Just has those in authority should reciprocate the same respect.
Nobles I am in favour of Edict 1.2 because we need to look after our borders and much has been said already. I can see the need for the brothers of the St. John Order to fulfill their mandate but they must exercise patience. Such a venture could be risky on the Treasury at this time.
I would like to remind the members that there is Catholic representation by Templar Knights in the Outremer. I would favour our Order going to Antioch but not till we have prepared ourselves from our enemies at home.
Comes Markianos Ampelashas offered some sound advice in this short session. I have not had a chance to speak with him on this precise issue. Surly we can come to some compromise completing the mandate of Edict 1.2 with the option of allowing a journey to Antioch. We need something for the Megas Logothetes to have the flexibility to work with if the conditions are right that both mandates could be achieved.
This is our first session lets try to work together by cooperating and building a consensus for future session. Let’s get the talking over with so we can get to the real action in the field.
Now one of our young legal men here can form a new edict with the wording to get a consensus.
The Comes walks to his seat shaking the hands with the members of his House.
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 04:34
Makedonios sees that Comes Aleksios ek Ikoniou has finally arrived. While happy at first that the Comes's presence might instill some discipline among his vassals, he is sad to hear the same tired arguments repeated yet again.
Comes Aleksios ek Ikoniou,
Since you have just arrived, I will reply to each of your points.
Why exactly should we exercise patience? We have the men, the ships, and the leaders. We can have Antioch by "turn 8" if we move now. What possible reason could there be for not moving? It's not like Outremer will become safer if we wait.
How exactly will the venture be risky on the treasury? While I refuse to do something so absurd as to "promise that it will cost zero florins", I do believe the venture will be cheap. With the plan I laid out, it will only require what is already on Cyprus.
How exactly will preparing at home get us ready to go to Outremer? I have already showed that the other surrounding rebel settlements will take years to build up. While we can have a "minor city" in just 8 "turns". I fail to see how waiting will make us more capable of taking Antioch.
There already is a compromise worked out. And that is to vote for both Edicts 1.2 and 1.4. That would put Antioch on the list of provinces the Megas can direct his early attention to. The only way to improve this compromise would be to amend 1.2 to put Antioch in to the list directly. Thus only one vote would be required.
Looking at the identities of those who have been the loudest opponents of the Order taking Antioch, it seems almost as if House Tagamata itself is against the Order. Which is regrettable. I hope we can bury our differences and work together to rebuild the Empire.
Philippos Eirinikos,
I am confident that in the long term, the money generated will more than pay for the cost to defend it. If we move soon, we will have some time to prepare and dig in.
I truly hope you are right Comes Makedonios, because if not many men will die for nothing more than one man's ambition.
Philippos returns to his seat amongst his fellow house members
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 04:41
I hope your not talking about our Patriarch.
I don't know if you noticed, but he just issued a proclamation to take Antioch.
This is not about "one man's ambition" and I am getting a little tired of hearing the same "red herrings" and "weasel words" over and over from members of House Takamata.
Askthepizzaguy
06-03-2008, 05:12
Efstratios Monomachos sits bewildered by the endless bickering, trying to make sense of the sheer volume of petty disagreement. He feels as though he is trapped inside of a very hot and heavy cloth sack filled with dozens upon dozens of rabid chickens, all of whom are pecking and scratching at his ears. He stands up suddenly and shouts,
These bloodthirsty hens are trying to eat my brain!!!
Suddenly aware of the dead silence, Efstratios slowly sits down.
The Lemongate
06-03-2008, 05:41
Anastasios has been getting more and more restless as the discussions grew around him. Nearly getting up and leaving on many occasions, he finally bursts, unable to contain himself any longer, and walking into the middle of the Senate he intones in a clear and loud voice:
ENOUGH!!! I have heard enough of this senseless politicking! You all act as a bunch of scared and greedy old men heckling each other with base insults! You should be ashamed of yourselves! If I had only you for examples I would feel ashamed to be a Senator in this City!
You all act as though Rome was left defenseless after Manzikert! It has been nearly ten years since that terrible day and we have recovered! Have you all forgotten how over fifteen hundred years ago our ancestors began conquering the world with the forces of a single little city on the banks of the Tiber? Were has your fighting spirit of old gone? Have you suddenly all become cowardly little children even afraid to invoke the name of the O-so-mighty Turks, Normans and Lombards that have dealt us stinging blows? Where has the willpower of the Great Justinian gone?
I hear some of you say we must preserve our strength for trials to come. That our treasury cannot support so many fronts. That we should concentrate on securing a few cities close to our homes and let the rest of our glorious Empire in the hands of barbarians and heathens! Nay! Thrice nay! We are from a race of warriors and conquerors and conquering we should be doing rather then throwing worthless accusations at one another!
It is not the lack of military might I hear echo through these halls, but the fear for the personal safety of a few scared Senators who have more in common with little girls then with men of valor and courage! Since when does a Roman need to overpower his enemies two to one to win a war? Let them outnumber us two to one, three to one even! And God being on our side we shall vanquish! Have we not overcome the limitless armies of the Celts? Have we not crushed the mighty elephants of Carthage? Have we not brought about the fall of the timeless Persian Sassanids? What fear can Saracens, Franks and Normans bring to our hearts? We have triumphed over greater evils!
No it is not lack of military might that holds us back, but the will to use it. The will to take the handful of brave men we have and march strongly onto those who would defy our Emperor. To crush those who rebel against our authority and to defy any so-called foreign powers to take those cities and castles away from us. The more land we conquer, the more gold will flow into our coffers, you all know this to be true. Be it Antioch, Bari, Scopia, Smyrna. Be it Crimea or Egypt. Be it even distant Iberia. The further we extend our reach, the more powerful our armies will become and the richer our lands be. There is no need to antagonize our neighbors by walking into their lands, but there is certainly no justification into shirking away from rebellious settlements simply by fear that our might will not be enough to hold them or that our coffers will be so taxed that we will not be able to reinforce them. A city produces its own defense either in gold or through the valor of its defenders. And should one of us fall in defense of the Empire, glory to his name and his family! It should be an honor to fight and die for the Empire of the Romans and the Greeks!
Many Senators seem to have brought a political agenda into this Senate session which seems to constrain the Empire, to force us into a defensive position where we appear weak and vulnerable, where our lack of action will let our enemies grow stronger while we take only tiny steps into restoring a portion of our former glory. We should not fear another Manzikert. No! Instead we should sharpen our swords to win the next one!
I say march forth into rebellious lands Senators and bring with you your best horsemen and all your retainers and conquer in the name or Rome and her Basileos! The nay-sayers are the vilest of cowards! Blasphemous wretches who forget that God Himself, in his magnanimity has given us His Word to guide our actions. Our Lord commands us to war! Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
And unless someone in this chamber is such a fool as to doubt our victory over rebel forces and over the foreign powers that might want to rob us of our lands, then there is no question that our soldiers should assembled at this very moment to march out towards those rebels and assure our control over them before someone else moves into those areas. From the Levant to the steppes of Hungary, from the isles of the Mediterranean to the shores of Italy, we should be the first to pacify our disgruntled subjects and reap the rewards of these conquests.
A free town cannot call reinforcements, yields taxes and is a possible outpost against further invasions. If every Roman soldier kills two enemies, who should we fear? And in truth any commander worth his rank can beat a force four times superior to his.
So are you the Senators who will lead Roman arms to renewed glory? Or are you just a bunch of robed monkeys, more apt at throwing insults then arrows and javelins?
I know where I stand.
I urge you to strike down those vile legislations that would bind all of our hands and push our Empire to its knees.
Face flushed with anger, his fists clenching nearly uncontrollably, Anastasios exists the Senate before anyone has had any time to recover from his tirade. The guards even take a step back as he passes them, sensing that the man could probably kill someone with his own bare hands should anyone challenge him at this moment. As he leaves, nearby Senators can hear him mutter curses on the foppish, paper-pushing fools that would have us refrain from fighting rebels camping outside this very city, for fear it would anger the Rus or the Scots...
Northnovas
06-03-2008, 06:01
After that outburst the Comes feels no further words are needed for the he looks at his thinks of his men and thinks the only discipline they need is in the battlefield. Wishing not to continue this tired argument he motions to the clerk to present the current legislation that has been propsed so far to the Strators.
Edict 1.1.: Before the beginning of each session of the Magnaura, every Senator present has to swear allegiance to the Basileus of Rome. He who refuses, will be tried for high treason. A commission of three Senators, picked by the majority of the Magnaura will decide over the fate of the traitor.
Proposed: Savvas ek Militou
Second
Edict 1.2: All military assets will be devoted to the conquest of the rebel settlements of Canakkale, Arta, Durazzo, Scopia, Sofia, Sinop, Smyrna, and Rhodes before they can be released for other purposes. Bari and Trebizond may be included in this list at the discretion of the Megas Logothetes. No attack will be made on any foreign nation until this reconquest is complete. This Edict does not apply to any of the above settlements which are conquered by a foreign nation before they are reincorporated into the Empire. This Edict is void if a foreign nation attacks the Empire.
Proposed: Khristophoros Diogenis
Second: Pavlos Chrysovergos Markianos Ampelas
Edict 1.3:
A Priest is to be sent in the region surrounding Caesarea to help our Orthodox brethern against their Muslim overlords.
Proposed: Pavlos Chrysovergos
Second: Makedonios Ksanthopoulos Savvas ek Militou
Edict 1.4 to read: If Edict 1.2 passes, Antioch will be added to the list.
Proposed: Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Second: Vissarionas ek Lesvou Iakovos ek Kallipoleos
Edict 1.5: The training of a boat or hiring of a mercenary craft is required outside of Athens in order to transport men to Rhodes, as per Edict 1.2. The fleet we already own further North may also be used if it has no other orders.
Proposed: Hypatios Machonios
Second: Armatos ek Naksou Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Edict 1.6 That a ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry a commander and a battalion of spearmen to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari.
Proposed:Anastasios Neokaisareitis
Second:
The document was placed to let members know what has been proposed so far.
Askthepizzaguy
06-03-2008, 06:26
The Strator Efstratios pores over the legislation for a bit, and after a brief discussion with his master, decides to declare a position on the legislation in question, now that there has been some semblance of order and due process restored to the Senate.
A senator cannot think with the whinnying of horses, the squealing of pigs, and the screeching of hens suffocating his mind.
Edict 1.1:
Vote: Abstain.
Reasons: I highly support anyone who wishes to swear allegiance to the Emperor and question those who do not, but we should not risk alienating those who are hired soldiers for a living. I do not believe allegiance should be forced upon the unwilling. You might attract more soldiers to fight for you if you don't force politics upon them.
I myself loathe politics.
That being said, I've pledged my support for the Emperor and I am disinterested in this edict.
Edict 1.2:
Vote: Support.
Reasons: I am a veteran of the wars which split our empire, and I fought on the side of the Emperor, and won many battles. It is only because of a lack of will and leadership that we have so many of our brethren disconnected from us.
We must bring law and order back to our own people before we risk any wars with other nations.
Edict 1.3:
Vote: Against.
Reasons: I do not like politics or religion forced upon the unwilling. While I myself am a Christian, I would not risk conflict with the Muslims over religion. Rightful claims to our lands and citizens is one thing, faith in God is not the business of States.
Would we be like our would-be Papal overlords and try everyone we see as a heretic? I think not. Surely we are more enlightened than they.
Keep our priests here in our own lands, because the Catholics may send priests of their own to convert our own people! Surely we should establish a Rome First policy. Take care of the citizens of our empire before we try to convert those unlike ourselves.
Edict 1.4
Vote: Support.
Reasons: Antioch is home to our people, ruled by a rebellious criminal tyrant. Surely if Constantinople were held in the clutches of a madman, every true Roman here would rise as one to free our citizens from his evil grasp. This is true of our second great city, Antioch. We must reclaim this place from the hands of criminals and outlaws at all costs.
I will take the city myself if it came down to that. But I trust our easternmost brothers can handle themselves without my modest arms.
Edict 1.5
Vote: Support.
How could we not help our brothers reclaim the empire? Hire the bloody ships!
Edict 1.6
Vote: Support
Same as above. Surely if we are to act as one mighty empire, we should not skimp on the hiring of transit vessels. They can be docked and decommissioned later.
OverKnight
06-03-2008, 07:48
As Senators argue, a scribe leaves the chamber with a scroll in hand. A few minutes later, the doors of the Magnaura open, and the Basileus walks in among a phalanx of guards. Making his way to the foot of the Throne, he dismisses them and begins to speak.
Senators, it heartens me to see this antique body so alive again with debate. For too long have these halls been silent, with the title of Senator only being an honorific. I had hoped that by resurrecting this assembly, giving the Senate an actual voice in the running of the state, the passions of the noble families would be redirected to serving the Empire, to expanding it, rather than machinations surrounding the throne itself. Such self destructive manuevering has led to four Emperors and even more pretenders to the Throne in 10 years, and during that time we have lost much.
The Basileus's expression grows more resolute.
That time of chaos is at an end. The Basilea will no longer be a bauble to be passed about and the world will learn once again to fear and respect the Roman Empire. What has been lost will be recovered.
Yet we must tread carefully in the infancy of this Restoration. Potential enemies and rebels surround us. The roads of the Empire lie in ruins, markets in our cities are empty and barracks have fallen into disrepair. The military has not yet recovered from Manzikert and the subsequent civil wars. Our once unmatched trading network has collapsed, superceded by barbarians.
But there is hope. We are still unconquered. Many have tried to storm the Walls of Theodosius and failed. We are at war with no nation. We have breathing room to rebuild and bring rebellious settlements back into the fold.
The passion of this body is inspiring, yet it is also dangerous. If our reach exceeds our grasp, we will merely repeat the hubris and disaster of the past. The restoration of the Empire must begin in Greece, Anatolia and the Danubian frontier. Once the traditional heartland of the Empire has been reclaimed, then we can turn our eyes to far off horizons.
With regret, I must say that involvment in Italy or the Levant would be premature at this time. While Bari or Antioch could be taken, defending them would be another question entirely. The need for an extensive navy, the increase in our borders at the periphery of the Empire with no land connection and the increase in potentially hostile neighbors make these enterprises unfeasible considering the current state of our treasury and military resources.
Make no mistake, all the lands that once were ours will be again. Yet this will not be our task alone but for our sons and their sons as well.
My thanks to you Senators.
Aleksios sits on the Throne and awaits a response.
pevergreen
06-03-2008, 07:54
Michail jumps up, eager to respond.
"My liege, may I present my response?
When you said
Bari or Antioch could be taken, defending them would be another question entirely.
I do believe you are correct, we have two settlements already quite close!
I propose Edict 1.7: The Empire shall strive to capture Durazzo and Arta utalising the General's Anastasios and Michail respectively, within the first "term".
What are your thoughts my lord?"
Askthepizzaguy
06-03-2008, 07:58
Efstratios rises again and addresses the assembled Senators, while moving toward the center of the Magnaura...
Truly the wisdom of our Basileus is revealed by his words. Not only does he rise above the fray, but he brings order, foresight, and a noble presence to this most solemn and sacred place of governance. It is with his grace and dignified leadership that we might...
At that moment, Efstratios trips over his big floppy clown shoes and is knocked unconscious in the middle of the floor.
Most honrable Basileus, it is heartening to hear such wise words from him whose position requires him to be the wisest of all. I must say that you would have saved us my vicious argument had you arrived earlier, but I suppose it was good exercise in political debate.
I believe I speak for all the Senators when I ask you to tell us how, strategically speaking, you plan on approaching that which you have proposed. How plan you to deploy our troops and in which order to attack the target settlements?
Ituralde
06-03-2008, 08:01
Pavlos had been leaning over towards Ioannis Komnenos, a worried frown creasing his forehead while he whispered urgently to the Ceasar. His attention immediatelly turned to the entering Basileus and a rare smile appears on his face as he hears the words of Aleksios Komnenos.
OverKnight
06-03-2008, 08:12
The Basileus replies:
Part of the answer to your question, Senator Markianos, will be determined by the Edicts passed by the Senate. As for my part, once my scribes have presented me with some logistical information (OOC: I'm at home and have access to the save) I will provide the specifics.
As for saving this body an argument, well such debates are enlightening.
Senator Michail, again I am waiting on my scribes before I can answer your question.
In the back of the chamber, a man of average height and equally average appearance waits patiently for the Basileus to finish, nodding at many of his points. He then walks slowly towards the table of the House of Asteri. Friends and acquaintances recognize him immediately as Kosmas Mavrozomis, Comes of Athens.
As he passes their tables he nods towards Makedonios Ksanthopoulos and more deeply towards the Caesar Ioannis Komnenos. As he reachs his House's table he converse briefly with one of his scribes, eyes widening at some of the news he receives. Turning to face the assembly, he clears his throat and speaks.
"Fellow Senators, I must admit to feeling rather disturbed by some of the reports I received from the period of my absence. This resurrection of the Senate's powers and purpose is a great event that will long be noted by historians. The Empire of New Rome stands at a crossroads. The Battle of Manzikert has weakened but not destroyed us. The Turks are divided, with many petty emirs ruling what once were their provinces. If we act quickly we can easily recapture much of the heartland of the Empire before they can react, and so regain the strength needed to expel them. The Balkans and much of Anatolia are ours for the taking.
And yet here we are bickering over a single province. The Order has many nobles and their retinues. They believe they can take it with minimal resources. Antioch! One of the seats of the Patriarch, and a city far richer than any other within reach. Our very own Patriarch of Constantinople wishes that we would take it. I say why not let the Order attempt it? Little would be lost if they fail, which is unlikely in any event. It would be far better for it to go to the Empire than the Latins to the south or, worse yet, the Turks to the north, who would use the riches of the city to fund a mighty army to attack us. Let the Order take the city, and they can garrison it themselves, even if it takes all of their retinues. They can hold it and defend it without the use of further resources of the Imperial Treasury. I wager the city will pay for itself imediately, and as the population is converted it will need no great garrison.
This will prevent our enemies from using its wealth against us. It would be both blasphemy and dangerous to let such a former jewel of the Empire fall to Turk or Latin when we have the power to take it for no cost.
I fully support Edict 1.4, and add a second to Edict 1.6."
Kosmas bows and sits down.
deguerra
06-03-2008, 09:22
I say it now for the third time, I second Edict 1.6
Kagemusha
06-03-2008, 09:28
Ioannis Kantakouzinos enters the Senate, with an elder scribe. After few brief words with the Caesar and other Komnendoukai he takes the speaker stand.
" I Ioannis Kantakouzinos as Senator of Roman Empire, hereby pledge my absolute loyalty to the Roman Empire, Basileos Aleksios Komnenos and Caesar Ioannis Komnenos."
Bowing first to Basileos and then to Caesar, he returns to his seat in the Komnendoukai section.
Savvas stands up and bows for the Emperor.
"Mighty Basileus, I hereby repeat my oath of fealthy."
Savvas stares at the Grandmaster of the Order, seemingly amazed that the Comes still hadn't pledged his loyalty to the Basileus. He shrugged and spoke further.
"Our Patriarch is right about the Catholics. It's not good to have this apostate, this Pope, sitting in Rome. We call ourselves Romans, but Rome is not in our hands. It is in the hands of this abomination of christians, those Catholics!"
Savvas paused and took a deep breath.
"Yes, we should conquer the Holy Lands! Yes, the Holy Lands belong to us, true Romans. But if we want to revive our Empire, if we want to bring back the glory of the Roman Empire, then we need to take ROME! Our priorities are in the West, my fellow Senators. The Patriarch needs to be reinstalled as head of the Church, the only True Church which is the Orthodox Church and Rome is where he should be installed! Once we have conquered Rome, taking the Holy Lands will be but a formality."
I hereby withdraw the text of Edict 1.1 and replace it by this:
Edict 1.1.: At any given moment, the Basileus can decide to use all resources of the Empire for a direct assault on Rome. Every nobleman who is ordered to join this assault on Rome, will have to follow the call of the Emperor and will use all his available resources for the conquest of Rome.
_Tristan_
06-03-2008, 10:25
Having gone from the chambers, tired of the political bickering about taking this or that province, Methodios Tagaris returns and gladly sees that the Basileos has made his appearance. Walking purposefully in front of the raised dais where the Emperor sits, he drops to one knee, fist to heart his face upturned to his Lord, locking eyes with him.
"My Lord, I swear my loyalty to you. My life and my sword are yours to command. Do with me as you see fit. I am yours."
Keeping his eyes locked with those of the Basileos, Tagaris only bows when a nod from the Emperor aknowledges his oath.
Rising, he goes to resume his seat on the benches nearest the throne.
The Emperor has my private oath but if it pleases my fellow members of the Senate I shall make my pledge here in public as well.
Kosmas bows deeply to the Emperor, only getting up once his oath has been acknowledge.
I, Kosmas Mavrozomis, pledge my life, my arms, and my loyalty to Aleksios Komnenos, divinely appointed by God to be Emperor.
As for Edict 1.1, I cannot support it at this time. Rome is a shell, destroyed by barbarians most recently during the Gothic Wars and now inhabited by barbarians. It was lost to the Empire hundreds of years ago. It pales before the glory of the New Rome founded by Constantine.
It would be a pit to throw our money in, would require at least as large a garrison as, say Antioch, and as it is home to the religious leader of the barbarians we would soon find ourselves the subject of these "crusades" they are talking about. We also have no forces anywhere near it.
Contrast this with Antioch, which could be captured with little cost by the Order, is still quite wealthy, and was lost a mere couple years ago to Armenian rebels. We have an immediate duty to make an example of these rebels before rebellion spreads even further throughout the Empire.
Someday Rome and all the seats of the Patriarchs will fall under the rule of the Empire again. For now, however, we must choose our conqests more carefully. Antioch is near, easy to capture, and a more important city of the Empire than Rome, despite the latter's illustrious past. It also just recently, within the memory of all of us, was taken by rebels. If we do not take it back now the Turks will surely capture it and use its wealth against us.
For these reasons and more, I cannot support Edict 1.1 as it has been rewritten.
_Tristan_
06-03-2008, 11:32
Methodios Tagaris rises up to speak.
My Lords, I have listened to your positions here before the Senate.
The whole world has its eyes set on Constantinople as the remnants of what was once the greatest of Empire, what remains of both of the greatest civilizations that mankind has created.
We stand at a crossroad both in history, geographically and religiously.
In history, the next years will decide if the Roman Empire has lived past its usefulness and die a merciful death or if as a phoenix, it will rise from the ashes of Manzikert.
Do not misunderstand me, I wish to see our Empire reborn to all its glory but to achieve such a goal we must put an end to all the bickering and the power play between the Houses and the factions.
Thus, Our Basileos (bowing to Aleksios Komemnos) is the embodiment of our new found unity.
But we also stand at a crossroads geographically and religiously, between a Catholic West and a Muslim East, religion that cannot be reconciled and ready to go at each other's throat.
I have heard here mentioned the risk of a Crusade being called on the Holy Land. Nobody has mentioned the risk of a Jihad unleashing hordes of Muslim fanatics in Anatolikon and beyond, threatening Constantinople itself.
All this I'm sure you all know... yet, it seems to me as if you cannot see the bigger picture and focus on details.
Here Antioch, there Bari, over there Rome...
Seeing the bigger picture means acting for the overall good of the Empire, something we cannot do if all pull and push in different directions.
Our first step is to reclaim any and all of the lands gone rebel in our vicinity. And define what will be our foreign policy.
We have to choose for the once whether the greatest threat lies in the Catholics or the Muslims. Then we will have to make allies of the chosen ones and wage war on the rest.
In doing so, we stand a chance of survival and more than that a chance of supremacy... Our faith will spread to our newly claimed lands and we will stand a chance to spread it even further.
So let us not divide our forces too much and let us stand united.
United we stand, divided we fall.
Forgive for such a long winded speech, but seeing some of you relentlessly going over some points forced me to intervene.
(Once more bowing to the Basileos) My Lord with your permission.
Methodios Tagaris sits back down, the look on his face going from hopefulness to dejection and back again.
Senator Tagaris,
Although there has been some argument over whether certain settlements, such as Bari and Antioch, are close enough to be in our "vicinity" I believe that we are all in agreement that reasserting control over nearby rebel territories is of the utmost importance if our Empire is to regain its strength. Whether we take Bari or Antioch....or Rome is important to the point that it would establish the Empire's outer boundaries for the very near future, but perhaps we have gotten too caught up in that single issue.
The problem you have noted is largely the result of our failing to get past the issue of whether certain settlements warrant taking, I think.
As for broader foreign policy, I think that the Muslims to the East are the biggest threat. They are larger and richer than our catholic neighbors and know more of our weakness since Manzikert. I also see the threat of a jihad as much greater in the near future than the threat of a crusade. Our main rival in the region for the forseeable future will likely be the Turks, and we should seek to contain them first. There is also the issue that regions very recently held by the Empire are under Muslim control. Catholics are still Christians of a sort, and Christian cities under Muslim control are a far greater affront to God. I would recommend a hostile stance towards the Turks, with an emphasis on containing them and eventually preparing to fight them.
In the West I believe more flexibility is required. Peace may not be possible with the greedy Venetians and barbaric Hungarians, but we can likely sign treaties of trade with the nations past them, and with the Russians, recently converted to Orthodoxy. In the meantime taking the rebel settlements in the Balkans would give us a secure border beyond the Greek heartlands of the Empire.
What say you on these issues, Senator Tagaris?
_Tristan_
06-03-2008, 12:21
Methodios stands up to answer the question adressed to him.
I gladly hear a voice that adresses the true questions that we mus ask ourselves.
I agree fully with you that the Turks are the main threat. And beyond that the Egyptians.
In the west, the Venetians are money-grubbing fiends and have taken profit of our difficulties to lay claim to the Isle of Crete, the nexus of sea traffic in the Mediterannean Sea.
As for the settlements that warrant taking, I would advocate claiming all that our within easy reach, be they situated in the Levant or closer to Constantinople. Our main concern should be to concentrate on employing our ressources in strengthening defensible positions and not waste them in keeping settlements that will cost us more than they will gain us.
If the Order wishes to claim Antioch for the Empire, let's not bar them from doing it. But let them understand that it will perhaps be a long time before any reinforcements come their way.
Does that answer your question, Comes Mavrozomis ?
Looking at Komes, Methodios sits back down.
Indeed it does, Senator Methodios,
It is pleasant to my thoughts shared by another. The Turks concern me the most right now, and the Venetians to a lesser extent.
It seems the Order can take Antioch for almost no cost, and are willing to garrison it and defend it with their own bodyguards if necessary. Meanwhile I sit in Athens with a garrison more than capable of handling that of Rhodes, and much closer as well. With the Prince in northern Anatolia, and the Comes' of Corinth and Thessalonika close to different parts of the Balkans, we can easily grab many rebel settlements quickly and set the Empire on the road to recovery and the strength needed to counteract the Turks and the Latins to the west if need be.
Methodios stands up to answer the question adressed to him.
I gladly hear a voice that adresses the true questions that we mus ask ourselves.
I agree fully with you that the Turks are the main threat. And beyond that the Egyptians.
In the west, the Venetians are money-grubbing fiends and have taken profit of our difficulties to lay claim to the Isle of Crete, the nexus of sea traffic in the Mediterannean Sea.
As for the settlements that warrant taking, I would advocate claiming all that our within easy reach, be they situated in the Levant or closer to Constantinople. Our main concern should be to concentrate on employing our ressources in strengthening defensible positions and not waste them in keeping settlements that will cost us more than they will gain us.
If the Order wishes to claim Antioch for the Empire, let's not bar them from doing it. But let them understand that it will perhaps be a long time before any reinforcements come their way.
Does that answer your question, Comes Mavrozomis ?
Looking at Komes, Methodios sits back down.
_Tristan_
06-03-2008, 12:34
And that we will do... If we stand united and act for the good of the Empire... In the name of our Basileos..
PrinceofTroy
06-03-2008, 12:34
Koulianos who has been quiet for much of the time finally stands.
Friends, I am against edict 1.1, Those who wish to swear allegiance may, those who don't wish to, should not be punished, for it is obvious that all of us here are loyal servants of the Empire.
I support edict 1.2, for only through expansion will the Empire return to its former glory.
I also support edict 1.3 for I believe that we must convert the Heathens in the East so that peace may be within our borders between all our people.
I support edict 1.4, Antioch is necessary for the Empire to control the East.
I support edict 5, expansion to Rhodes and a more powerful navy will do nothing but good for the Empire.
Edict 1.6 I am against, should we not try to make peace with the Christians in the West. I say we unite with the Catholics in the West and expand East with their help. Is it not reasonable
to join with people of our same faith?
Koulianos stays standing, waiting for someone to support or challenge his views.
My esteemed colleague Koulianos, allow me to point out that the original Edict 1.1. has been rewritten into:
Edict 1.1.: At any given moment, the Basileus can decide to use all resources of the Empire for a direct assault on Rome. Every nobleman who is ordered to join this assault on Rome, will have to follow the call of the Emperor and will use all his available resources for the conquest of Rome.
I support Edict 1.2. It's a necesseray first step towards the succesfull conquest of Rome.
And I am strongly opposed to make peace with the so called "Christians" to the West. These catholics are an abomination. The fact that they dare to call themselves "Christians" makes them even filthier then those filthy Islamic dogs. The catholics are heathens, no more, no less. They are to be converted and their Pope has to be removed and replaced by our beloved Patriarch.
GeneralHankerchief
06-03-2008, 13:29
Patriarchal Representative:
Need I remind Senator Savvas ek Militou that the Patriarch has warned that the only thing that will unite Western Catholicism at this point in time is an external attack on it. An all-out push for Rome would certainly qualify.
Patriarchal Representative:
Need I remind Senator Savvas ek Militou that the Patriarch has warned that the only thing that will unite Western Catholicism at this point in time is an external attack on it. An all-out push for Rome would certainly qualify.
Not only an external attack.
A crusade called by their Pope will also unite Western Catholicism.
To the Catholics, we are heathens, just like the Muslims. If a crusade is called, Constantinople might as well be the target. I think we must prepare for an invasion from the West.
Therefore, we now need to take the settlements mentioned in Edict 1.2., to strenghten our Empire. Edict 1.1. will grant the Basileus the opportunity to act quickly if a Crusade would be called by the Pope.
Also, might I ask one of the other Senators to propose an Edict to form an alliance with our Orthodox Russian brethren? And our diplomats should try and get trade rights from our neighbouring factions as well. I'd love to propose such Edicts myself, but my rank doesn't allow me to propose several edicts during one session...
GeneralHankerchief
06-03-2008, 13:45
Patriarchal Representative:
Pope Gregory will not call a Crusade on a target close enough to him where a potential invasion of Catholic lands will be launched. No, he will look to the east, where the only consequence of failure will be lives, and not land, lost. He still believes in the diplomatic route with us. He is still trying to get my master to embrace the Catholic faith. He will not attack us.
I fully agree with Strator ek Militou on his last point. The Rus may not be the most powerful nation at the present time, but they are the only other people who share the True Faith. All other alliances will be at risk of imminent violation due to the blasphemous whims of the so-called-Pope and the senior Muhammadan clerics. Only the Rus will be immune to such heretical temptations to betray us. We would be wise to establish an alliance with them and nurture it to the mutual benefit of both our peoples.
GeneralHankerchief
06-03-2008, 13:52
Patriarchal Representative:
I believe my master would agree to this alliance as well.
Northnovas
06-03-2008, 14:07
I would like to propose the following edict:
Edict 1.8 The creation of 2 agents. A diplomat to make contact with the Orthodox Factions of the north for an alliance and trade. The other diplomat to head west to contact European Factions for diplomatic talk and trade.
OOC: Correction noted I missed Edict 1.7 on the previous page "capture of Druzzo and Arta by assigned generals."
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 14:12
The Saracen officer leans forward from his seated position to address the chamber.
I can confirm that the Sultanate's advisors were extremely concerned with a Catholic Crusade being called towards Palestine.
I do not believe the Catholic Pope will call a Crusade against any holdings of this Empire, for now at least.
I would suggest that if war with the Turks or the Egyptian's is not planned in the near future, a trade delegation would be received favourable by both these Empires. The Merchant class has extremely strong sway over both rulers at this time.
_Tristan_
06-03-2008, 14:13
I fully agree with the idea of an alliance with the Rus, their are cousins to my own viking ancestors and share our Faith.
I would advise also to negociate an alliance with the Hungarians. While they may seem barabaric to some of you, they are devout Christians if Catholic.
If we can get on good terms with them, they could speak in our name before the Western kingdoms, and even before the Pope.
Plus their lands could act as a buffer to any invading force from the West. We have much to gain to make them our friends and much more to lose by making them enemies.
I will second Edict 1.8. but I would amend it so that it reads something less restrictive on the Megas.
Something like "Recruitment of agents is left at the discretion of the Megas, as long as enough are recruited to implement diplomacy with the Rus and the Western kingdoms."
OOC : NN your edict should be 1.8...
Askthepizzaguy
06-03-2008, 14:13
Efstratios continues to lie unconscious on the floor of the Senate, blood pooling from his rainbow-coloured wig, as no one has bothered to drag him from the floor. A servant finally tiptoes up to the body and pokes it with a stick, and Efstratios stirs a bit.
I must agree with the most honourable Savvas ek Militou, the bloody Catholics will unite against us and send their bleedin ships across the bleedin sea to attack us. If not in Holy Crusade now, then in the name of Venetian and Sicilian Imperialism, and in Papal Imperialism later. The Muslims are nothing!
So nothing are they that we could march against their Capital at this very moment, crush the idiots, and continue on eastward and destroy the next in line for Sultan. Then how would we fear the Muslims? I would wager my enormous bowtie that the Fatmids would not even care, they hate the Turkish Sultan more than we do!
OOC- I should know, I've played as the Turks enough times. Were it not for certain changes, such a move could wipe them all out in a few short turns!
The Muslims are divided. If a Jihad were to be called, few if any would respond. And they would march right up to the heart of our empire, only to be slaughtered by our combined might. Personally I think a few assassins would take care of any crusaders or jihadis, as the religious zealots scatter like rabbits whenever their leader is slain. Bloody sheep.
The servant begins to blot up all the blood from the Strator's face with a cloth towel.
We do, however, face the greater horde of Catholic zealots, who require no crusade or jihad to exploit our weakness. They will most likely begin their expansion into our homeland right away via ship. If the Venetians don't do it, the Sicilians certainly will. And the Sicilians are so vulnerable that I could probably destroy them myself, just grant me a ship and I'll hire the spearmen when I land. They will be off capturing Tunis as we speak, or Cagliari or some other nameless, worthless settlement.
Strike whilst the iron is hot, gentlemen, and to catch our foes as they arm for war, rather than when they deploy for war, is to win the war before it even starts. With Sicily gone, we would be a stone's throw from the Pointy-Hatted One, and we could march right up to Rome and claim it for the Emperor.
The servant takes out a mop and begins to soak up the large blood spill from the senate floor.
Then the Man in the White Dress and Ruby Slippers could call a crusade on Rome, which would ensure that no Catholic could crusade through our empire for many decades.
Ambitious? Yes. Risky? Yes. But after the rebels in Greece fall, we cannot sit inside our walls with our thumbs in our collective arses while the bleedin' Catholics arm themselves to the teeth and prepare to land troops on our shores. Or perhaps we are so enamoured with the idea of destroying Muslims that we forget how vulnerable and vital our western shore is, and how losing control of Greece would cripple the Empire forever.
The Emperor has decided not to engage in war with the Catholics before the rebels are taken, so let's take them quickly, men. Then we should put to sleep the sick dog of Sicily and destroy quickly the virulent pests of Venice, followed by the Pontificating One and his Papal Empire.
After that, we can construct our Orthodox churches, spit out a couple of priests, and wait patiently for our citizens to see the light.
With that, Efstratios passes out from the extensive blood loss, his head smashing into the stone floor a second time with a sickening thud.
I second Edict 1.7 as proposed by Comes Aleksios ek Ikoniou.
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 14:24
A look of amusement crosses his face at the words spoken by Efstratios. In a flat and direct tone he address the Strator.
I would not be so quick to dismiss the military capabilities of the Egyptian Sultan my Lord. To do so would invite destruction on a scale this Empire may not be able to survive.
Askthepizzaguy
06-03-2008, 14:36
Efstratios lifts his head momentarily, and addresses Apionnas
I quite disagree. The Egyptian Sultan is too predictable. If he doesn't sit his fat arse in Cairo for the next 15 decades, spawning generation after generation of bleedin' idiots, then he will go after Jerusalem and the Teutonic Order.
If we should fear the Egyptians so, then it makes ever more sense to construct a NAVY and sink the bastards en route.
Does no one else see that our generals and a few peasant spearmen can take care of our rebel situation, and that our main forces at this point should be NAVIES?
Our bodyguards alone could likely take care of the inner empire. But we will never HAVE an outer empire without some bloody ships.
He pauses for a moment to let this sink in:
SAILING VESSELS! Masted war machines! Rafts and freaking ROWBOATS!!! ANYTHING!!!!
Efstratios now has a pounding headache, not from his multiple skull fractures and oxygen-deprived brain, but from the utter lack of proper naval forces to defend the realm. He passes out yet again.
Savvas looks at the clownish outfit from his esteemed colleague, Efstratios and sighs.
Can someone propose some kind of dress code for our next sessions, please? I can live with some extravaganza every now and then like any other man, but not during a Senate meeting.
AussieGiant
06-03-2008, 14:45
About to reply, Apionnas simply shakes his head in wonder at the figure of Efstratios now slumped before him. Standing the officer moves over to Efstratios and begins a series of quick, efficient medical checks. Finally he glances to a nearby court official.
I think you should call the royal physician. This man needs assistance.
Ituralde
06-03-2008, 14:50
"So we should listen to the clown now, shall we?
A man that sputters incoherently about chickens one minute, passes out the next, and then tells us of his wild fancies of attacking entire cities with nothing more than his retinue and some peasants. I bloody hope the physicians will get his head fixed, before he comes in here again!"
Privateerkev
06-03-2008, 19:47
OOC:
I'm getting confused by the edicts and seconds so I'm just going to put up an OOC list. Please let me know if I made any mistakes.
Edict 1.1: At any given moment, the Basileus can decide to use all resources of the Empire for a direct assault on Rome. Every nobleman who is ordered to join this assault on Rome, will have to follow the call of the Emperor and will use all his available resources for the conquest of Rome.
Proposed by Savvas ek Militou
Edict 1.2: All military assets will be devoted to the conquest of the rebel settlements of Canakkale, Arta, Durazzo, Scopia, Sofia, Sinop, Smyrna, and Rhodes before they can be released for other purposes. Bari and Trebizond may be included in this list at the discretion of the Megas Logothetes. No attack will be made on any foreign nation until this reconquest is complete. This Edict does not apply to any of the above settlements which are conquered by a foreign nation before they are reincorporated into the Empire. This Edict is void if a foreign nation attacks the Empire.
Proposed by Khristophoros Diogenis
Seconded by Markianos Ampelas and Pavlos Chrysovergos
Edict 1.3: A Priest is to be sent in the region surrounding Caesarea to help our Orthodox brethern against their Muslim overlords.
Proposed by Pavlos Chrysovergos
Seconded by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos and Savvas ek Militou
Edict 1.4: If Edict 1.2 passes, Antioch will be added to the list.
Proposed by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Seconded by Hypatios Machonios and Iakovos ek Kallipoleos
Edict 1.5: The training of a boat or hiring of a mercenary craft is required outside of Athens in order to transport men to Rhodes, as per Edict 1.2. The fleet we already own further North may also be used if it has no other orders.
Proposed by Hypatios Machonios
Seconded by Armatos ek Naksou and Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Edict 1.6: That a ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry a commander and a battalion of spearmen to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari.
Proposed by Anastasios Neokaisareitis
Seconded by Ioannis Kalameteros and Kosmas Mavrozomis
Edict 1.7: The Empire shall strive to capture Durazzo and Arta utalising the General's Anastasios and Michail respectively, within the first "term".
Proposed by Michail Arianitis
Edict 1.8: The creation of 2 agents. A diplomat to make contact with the Orthodox Factions of the north for an alliance and trade. The other diplomat to head west to contact European Factions for diplomatic talk and trade.
Proposed by Aleksios ek Ikoniou
Seconded by Khristophoros Diogenis and Methodios Tagaris
NN had his 1.8 as 1.7 for a short time. Two people seconded 1.7 when they meant 1.8
*edit*
TC has confirmed this. Therefore there are still no seconds on 1.7 but 1.8 has the required amount.
OOC: 1.8 was numbered 1.7 at the time Andres and I seconded it. NN later changed it to 1.8, hence the discrepancy. We both were seconding NN's Edict, not the one before it.
The Lemongate
06-03-2008, 20:01
A grotesquely fat man in outrageously stylish italian clothes appears at the doors of the Senate chamber. He has a very business-like attitude and, taking advantage of a lul in the debates, walks up to the Protoasecretes and demands, in a skweaky italian voice to be given a room and a dinner, preferably, of mutton chops. Before the befuddled official gets any chance to understand what is happening, the man turns to the assembled Senators:
What is the meaning of this farce! I am Voluminoso Maiale of Genoa! Merchant extraordinaire! I control the entire mutton chop trade from Venice to Lisboa, I could buy palaces in Egypt and this here inkeeper refuses me a simple meal! OUTRAGEOUS! Mama mia! If we were back in Italia I would have you clean the stables with your tongue, arlecchino!
As Voluminoso speaks and gesticulates, globs of greasy sweat that had been accumulating on his face and hands fly wildly about the room, forcing certain senators to run for cover. The poor Protoasecretes is forced to bear the brunt of the oily attack but is fortunatly saved a terrible beating at the hands of the italian as two guards quickly move to control the situation.
As the guards painfully attempt to drag him out while he flings energetically his enormous, feathered hat at them, he bellows ominously:
Terrible service! Servizio terribile! TERRIBILE!!! I will complain to the highest authorities! You scimmie have not heard the last of me! No one insults Voluminoso with impunity!
As he spits (literally) his final words at the Senate, the guards manage to throw him out. But in a terrible twist of fate, Voluminoso manages to grip a guardsman by the arm and drags him down with him, cushioning his fall. The other guards quickly close the doors of the Senate, but the wail of their unfortunate comrade can be heard through the wood and masonry. The most pious Senators send a heartfelt prayer for the poor guardsmen and someone can be seen running for a doctor. Here happy, hidden in spoilers...
Kagemusha
06-03-2008, 20:10
Ioannis Kantakouzinos stands up with large grin on his face and says jokingly.
"Maybe the Varangian guard should be deployed around the Senate building, because it seems even the Senate building itself is being invaded by Westerners, Saracens and Clowns."
Askthepizzaguy
06-03-2008, 22:14
Efstratios is awakened by the Royal medic and overhears. He stands up and demands with anger,
And just what do you have against clowns, good sir? While vile western merchants and dubious middle easterners are indeed a possible threat to the realm, precisely what threat does a clown present?
I have served this Emperor honourably since I was 16 years of age. I fought in some of the greatest battles of our time, and personally defended the Empire with my life, and I have the battle scars to prove it. I have seen battle so much that I can apparently lose large amounts of blood and still deliver stunning rebuttals while voting on important legislation and juggling!
While I do not question your devotion to the Empire, good sir, you cannot question mine, nor can you dismiss me simply because I had the decency to entertain poor, orphaned children that society has forgotten, between my duties serving my master as a mercenary general and voting in the Imperial senate!
I embody loyalty, hard work, dignity, and-
Efstratios slips on the sticky puddle of his own blood and is knocked unconscious yet again.
Kagemusha
06-04-2008, 00:15
Ioannis tries to to control his laughter, while replying to the questions of now unconscious Monomachos, but he has to walk instead out of the Senate to unleash a burst of laughter.
pevergreen
06-04-2008, 00:39
Michail wakes after his nice sleep, to hear some of Ioannis' comments.
"Invaded? The single saracen that sits besides me is, from all I can tell, an honourable man! He is no more an invader than you. I stand by this man, if you seek to damage his reputation, damage mine!"
Michail sits down, livid with anger. A few minutes later, his face is back to its normal set, emotionless.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 06:54
Anastasios quietly returned to the Senate, later in the day.
Per popular demand I reformulate this so it stands clearer:
Edict 1.6: That the nearest ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry commander and a battalion of spearmen or another eager commander to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari. This edict is meant to supersede any restrictions or discretionary powers mentioned in Edict 1.2 or any other Edicts.
As some terms have changed, for good measure, it would be good that this edict, in its current form, be seconded anew.
deguerra
06-04-2008, 06:57
I second, again, Edict 1.6
I must make a case against this Edict 1.6. This Edict will drag us into an immediate war with the Normans of Sicily. If Bari is occupied by only two regiments, the Normans will attack when they come upon it with a bigger force. The mere presence of a Roman flag will not stop them, they will only look at the number of defenders, and two regiments is not enough. Passing this Edict will effectively put us into a war with the Normans. Such a war is, I believe, premature at this time. We cannot defend Bari with the invasion force proposed, and we will soon be exactly where we are, except in a state or war with the Normans. Our small navy is ill-prepared for a war with a foreign power, something that will hopefully be fixed in time, but as it is, it is barely big enough to ferry our troops around. In short, this is not a good idea. Not yet.
Cecil XIX
06-04-2008, 07:09
I second Edict 1.6.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 07:17
I understand and respect your concerns, Comes Ampelas.
I fear however, that nothing will stop the Normans from moving even further against the Empire. Less then ten years ago, southern Italy was ours. Where will the Normans be in another ten years? Why should they stop in Italy?
I am confident in my abilities to lead a very small group of men against much larger odds. God trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield, in whom I take refuge.
Should the Senate and the Empire put its trust in me, I shall not fail.
I have faith in the Senate's judgement over these matters, but acknowledge your position.
Psalm 144:1-2
And I understand your concerns, good Strator. But the Normans are, at least, across the sea. They are no more of an inherent threat to us than other foreign powers, some of those who have very direct access to us. Less then ten years ago we held most of Anatolia too, and now the Turk sits on our plateau, emboldened by his recent decisive victory. They are a much bigger threat than these Normans, who may yet stay away from us if not provoked.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 13:28
Methodios Tagaris stands with a grave look upon his face.
I will propose the following Edict :
Edict 1.9 : Strator Tagaris is given the mission of claiming the rebel village of Durazzo for the Empire. He alone has mandate to claim it in the name of the Empire. No troops will be put under his command for said mission. Upon completion, the settlement is to be given to the Basileos to do with it as he sees fit. The town will be occupied.
The people of Dyrrakhion are Greeks, they were part of the Empire until a few years ago and have only rebelled through Italian intervention, Italian money funding their rebellion.
A quick end can be put to this with few losses on either side.
I know that some of you have their eyes set on that little place but I fear for the people of Dyrrakhion when I see the generals volunteering either too fond of violence (this with a look towards Neokaisareitis), somewhat deranged (with a puzzled look for Monomachos) or with unknown motivations (looking at Arianitis). And this are only those I know of.
Imagine 4 units of heavy cavalry riding to rid a small village of a few farmers turned militia... And maybe even using of every trick to be the first to reach it... This would not do honor to any of us, and neither to our Basileos...
As all can see from the wording of the Edict, I seek no personal advancement from this short campaign. I won't be taking with me any other soldiers but my retinue, freeing most of you to concentrate on more valid targets like Arta, Sophia or Scopia, or even Bari.
I have already received sanction from our Basileus to present the said Edict and I hope that it will be seconded and will gain enough support to pass legislation.
Also, I hereby pledge myself to the defense of that village against all comers until funds can be spared to properly garrison it, even if it costs me my life.
I have no fear of death, should it come for the greater good of the Empire.
Tagaris sits back down, looking for support in the eyes of his fellow senators.
Kagemusha
06-04-2008, 13:38
Surely such brave undertaking, without wish for personal gain should be accepted. If Basileos have consented this act. Who are we to deny it from you. I second Edict 1.9
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 13:39
I thank you, Strator Kantakouzinos, for your support.
*Khristophoros Diogenis raises an eyebrow.*
You seek no personal advancement? How is that possible when you are proposing legislation that requires the Basileus to send you, and only you, to conquer a nearby province? If you are truly impartial in the matter, surely you would trust the Basileus' judgment about who would be best to lead this attack. No, your legislation is anything but selfless. The proper way to achieve your aims would be to reduce the Edict to limitations requiring that Durazzo be occupied and turned over to the Basilues, then simply volunteer your services and let the Basileus decide. As it is worded now, this is clearly an attempt to grab personal glory.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 13:53
What glory ? Getting rid of a few rioting farmers ? What glory is there in that ?
My only goal through this Edict is to prevent what is in the works right now : a wild chase of too many generals as possible towards the same goal, while their skills and numbers could be put to better use elsewhere, capturing more worthy settlements.
Glory indeed... I may very well find it in death if the Venetians or Sicilians take ombrage of our reclaiming Dyrrakhion, their prospective beach-head on Greek soil...
Were you also one to want to march on Dyrrakhion ? Does my edict foil your plans ?
One last comment : As I said, the Basileus has given me his sanction to propose this Edict, but it has not been voted yet.
Your Edict is of no personal concern to me. I will be marching with my Lord, Comes Aleksios ek Ikoniou, towards whatever target the Basileus believes we should attack. The House of the Tagamata is above all else loyal to the Basileus and we will happily leave military strategy up to his wise counsel.
In any case, I seem to have made an error of law. I made my previous comments on the assumption that the Basileus could implement what you said even without the Edict. However, I forgot that Durazzo has no walls and that Senators are free to ride wherever they please, regardless of the wishes of the Megas. As such, various interested Senators could indeed do just ask you warned even though the Basileus would desire otherwise. Your Edict is therefore necessary to ensure that imparitality and fairness are applied to the conquest of that settlement.
I humbly apologize for my error, I will prove the sincerity of this statement by seconding Edict 1.9. I also urge the Basileus to provide Senator Tagaris with at least some small force. It would be a true shame to see such an honorable man fall in battle.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 14:06
I resent your undertoned accusations senator Tagaris. Never in my life have I done anything against the word of God. Do we not pray daily for our Lord to avenge us? The Bible says: Blessed is the man you discipline, O Lord, the man you teach from your law. Leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay.”
We must not let ourselves grow weak and complacent in the face of rebels who would sooner disown our Empire and our Church when in truth, as Senators of the foremost city of Christendom we are the agents of faith and law. Rebellion and treason are sins in the eyes of the Lord. It is like would-be vassals who reneged their commitments after being received with open arms, Senator Tagaris…
I have not laid any claim to Durazzo, but indeed, you are correct in saying I plan on riding towards it. Senator Arianitis even proposed it in legislation without me even prompting him to.
I support Edict 1.7 and I believe Edict 1.9, even though only good intentions are proferred, tells more about the ambitions of its author then what his good words would have us believe.
Psalm 94:1, 12
Romans 12:19
I agree with the initial statement of Strator Khristophoros Diogenis on Edict 1.9. I do not question your noble intentions, dear Strator Methodios Tagaris, but you certainly will agree with me that we must avoid at all costs the slightest air of favouritism or suspicions of masked desires for personal glory.
Methodios Tagaris, if you would rephrase your Edict and word it like this:
"The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send (a) general(s) or troops of his choice to conquer said settlement. After the village of Durazzo has been conquerend, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit."
Then I would whole-heartedly support it.
My esteemed colleague from the Tagamata proposes a good alternative, genericizing the Edict to achieve what Senator Tagaris wishes, but leaving the ultimate choice of which Senator is to lead the attack up to the Basileus. I will keep my second on Edict 1.9 for now, but I would like to urge Senator Tagaris to adopt the alternation, with a bit of extra language to make it more clear:
"The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send (a) general(s) or troops of his choice to conquer said settlement. No Senator may take Durazzo without the specific permission of the Basileus. After the village of Durazzo has been conquerend, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit."
This achieves your aim, Senator Tagaris. If the Basileus truly favors you as you state, then you will be chosen and sent forward just as in the current language. In addition, this altered Edict would allow the Basileus to provide you with at least some minimal reinforcements, if he deemed it necessary. I urge you to adopt these changes to your Edict.
Ramses II CP
06-04-2008, 14:34
Strator Vissarionas returns to the Senate floor with somewhat less enthusiasm than on his first visit. Upon reviewing the notes of what has just been said, however, excitement arises in his eyes.
By God gentlemen Strator Tagaris has hit upon just the sort of courageous, selfless, and chivalrous course our nation needs in this time of decay and politics. I second Edict 1.9 as currently written, just in case more fickle senators might choose to withdraw their endorsement, and will be praying for the good Strator's success!
With a brief bow towards Strator Tagaris, Vissarionas returns to his seat at the Order's table.
:egypt:
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 14:35
To prove that I seek no personal glory nor gain from this venture, I will rephrase my Edict. I would not have it said that our Basileos shows favoritism to one of his Senators.
Edict 1.9 :The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send a general to conquer said settlement. No Senator may take Durazzo without the specific permission of the Basileus. After the village of Durazzo has been conquered, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit. the town will be occupied.
You will notice that I have stated that only one general should be sent towards Dyrrakhionas the main goal of my Edict was to free as many of our Strators and of our troops for wothier targets. I have also added the occupation clause, as I do not want harm to come to the poor and gullible people of Dyrrakhion whose only failing was to believe in the false promises of the Italians.
I hope this new version of my Edict will be more to your tastes.
I have no other hope than to serve the Empire to the best of my abilities but I am first and foremost a military man, not a politician so I may be a bit too straightforward in my assessment of a problem and its solutions.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 14:38
I also resent the Senator's statements. God is my judge, Senator, and I will dismiss your opinions of me as being a legitimate basis for denying me my noble right to claim rebel lands for the Empire. Unless the Emperor specifically forbids me from taking Durazzo, that has been my stated ambition from the very beginning.
I will promise to occupy our province, as there is nothing there of value to pillage, and the profits from pillaging would not be mine to keep anyway. I serve the Emperor and my house, not naked ambition, which you seem to, Tagaris.
Furthermore, I see that it is no business of yours who takes the settlement anyway. This entire edict seems designed to deny those who have already staked a claim to Durazzo from taking it, while allowing for some nameless senator to claim it instead, or you yourself. Utter nonsense.
"Freeing our Strators for other causes".... BAH!
It is my cause sir. You just seek to deny it to me. You don't even hide it well.
Ramses II CP
06-04-2008, 14:41
Immediately Vissarionas rises,
I second the amended Edict 1.9 and salute the wisdom and courage of Strator Tagaris. God and Basileus willing I pray we someday have the chance to serve at one another's side.
Vissarionas again bows briefly before returning to his seat.
:egypt:
OOC: I propose that any time an Edict is amended a letter be added to the end to denote the fact that there have been changes and new seconds are required. For example:
Edict 1.9
Edict 1.9a
Edict 1.9b
etc.
edit: To clarify why I think this is necessary, I very nearly posted my second to Edict 1.9 after it had been amended already. If that had happened and I hadn't been paying attention, I could've ended up endorsing an Edict I didn't intend to. Adding a letter for each amendment will prevent this possibility.
:egypt:
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 14:42
I second Edict 1.9
OOC: An updated Edict tally is in the spoilers:
Edict 1.1: At any given moment, the Basileus can decide to use all resources of the Empire for a direct assault on Rome. Every nobleman who is ordered to join this assault on Rome, will have to follow the call of the Emperor and will use all his available resources for the conquest of Rome.
Proposed by Savvas ek Militou
Edict 1.2: All military assets will be devoted to the conquest of the rebel settlements of Canakkale, Arta, Durazzo, Scopia, Sofia, Sinop, Smyrna, and Rhodes before they can be released for other purposes. Bari and Trebizond may be included in this list at the discretion of the Megas Logothetes. No attack will be made on any foreign nation until this reconquest is complete. This Edict does not apply to any of the above settlements which are conquered by a foreign nation before they are reincorporated into the Empire. This Edict is void if a foreign nation attacks the Empire.
Proposed by Khristophoros Diogenis
Seconded by Markianos Ampelas and Pavlos Chrysovergos
Edict 1.3: A Priest is to be sent in the region surrounding Caesarea to help our Orthodox brethern against their Muslim overlords.
Proposed by Pavlos Chrysovergos
Seconded by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos and Savvas ek Militou
Edict 1.4: If Edict 1.2 passes, Antioch will be added to the list.
Proposed by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Seconded by Hypatios Machonios and Iakovos ek Kallipoleos
Edict 1.5: The training of a boat or hiring of a mercenary craft is required outside of Athens in order to transport men to Rhodes, as per Edict 1.2. The fleet we already own further North may also be used if it has no other orders.
Proposed by Hypatios Machonios
Seconded by Armatos ek Naksou and Makedonios Ksanthopoulos
Edict 1.6: That the nearest ship be sent immediately towards Epirus to ferry commander and a battalion of spearmen or another eager commander to Apulia with the intent of capturing the castle of Bari. This edict is meant to supersede any restrictions or discretionary powers mentioned in Edict 1.2 or any other Edicts.
Proposed by Anastasios Neokaisareitis
Seconded by Ioannis Kalameteros and Armatos ek Naksou
Edict 1.7: The Empire shall strive to capture Durazzo and Arta utalising the General's Anastasios and Michail respectively, within the first "term".
Proposed by Michail Arianitis
Seconded by Anastasios Neokaisareitis
Edict 1.8: The creation of 2 agents. A diplomat to make contact with the Orthodox Factions of the north for an alliance and trade. The other diplomat to head west to contact European Factions for diplomatic talk and trade.
Proposed by Aleksios ek Ikoniou
Seconded by Khristophoros Diogenis and Methodios Tagaris
Edict 1.9: The Basileus can claim Durazzo for the Empire. He can send a general to conquer said settlement. No Senator may take Durazzo without the specific permission of the Basileus. After the village of Durazzo has been conquered, it will belong to the Empire and the Basileus, and only the Basileus, can do with it as he sees fit. the town will be occupied.
Proposed by Methodios Tagaris
Seconded by Makedonios Ksanthopoulos and Vissarionas ek Lesvou
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 14:44
This Edict 1.9 is a waste of time. It's political posturing and you all know it.
Strators already have permission to claim rebel lands for the empire. The sole purpose of this edict is to deny houses other than your own the right to expand.
Such naked partisanship is an insult to the unity of the empire.
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 14:46
But Senator Tagaris belongs to no House and is giving the province to the Emperor.
Your statement makes little sense.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 14:47
Of course it does. Just because someone hasn't pledged to a house, that doesn't mean he can't act as an agent thereof.
And I'm sure senators who belong to a rival house are leaping for the oppurtunity to deny other houses a chance to claim provinces. That is what saddens me the most.
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 14:49
Truth be told Senators, you might revise your opinions of our fellow Tagaris in light of what I will tell you.
Tagaris, though independent in public, had pledge himself in private to the House of Asteri. After having heard of the plans that my colleage Monomachos and I were forming concerning Epirus, he decided to back off on his word and remain independent.
In such a light, Edict 1.9 seems only to be a vindictive legislation whose only point is to foil men of goodwill.
Maybe I wasn’t totally clear, but I seconded Edict 1.7. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 14:52
OOC: It is fixed. :2thumbsup:
It would help if everyone used the words "second" and bolded them. :beam:
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 14:53
I have not insulted you, Monomachos...
It is not I who has come here in the Senate in the ludicrous disguise of a buffoon...
But do not start to make false assertions about me... I belong to no House and have no plans to join one at this time...
I will not deny I have been approached by the Order but have refused the offer made.
My only loyalty is only to the Basileos... As my deeds will soon prove...
Or do you also accuse our Basileos of partisanship ?
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 14:55
Honourable Colleague, that is not even what concerns me.
The fact is, this entire edict is written for the express purpose of denying a house the right to claim a rebel province.'
There can BE NO PURPOSE TO THIS EDICT other than political rivalry. If we TRULY cared about expanding the empire and acting as one people, no one would limit the expansion of the empire into rebel lands if houses wish to risk their own troops.
Point blank, it's no one's business who takes what province. This edict would make sense IF the Senator wished to claim the province himself, but he doesn't, he wishes to "claim it for the emperor" which is precisely what any other house would be doing. Had he wished to claim it for himself it might make more sense, and perhaps we could resolve it.
The Emperor has thusfar not informed anyone to my knowledge that he seeks to deny houses the right to claim lands for themselves.
Bottom line, is that the edict is entirely a waste of time, a naked partisan move which threatens our unity, and it has no other purpose except to deny houses their legitimate right to claim and capture rebels. There can be no other interpretation.
I frankly don't care which house Tagaris does or does not belong to. By proposing this edict, he is threatening the rights of other houses for no legitimate cause.
I second Edict 1.9 (b) as amended and rewritten by our esteemed colleague, Strator Tagaris.
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 14:56
I did indeed give Methodios Tagaris an invitation to join the Order. But he respectfully declined.
He is a good man and I support him in his endeavors. I will pray for him and wish him luck.
Efstratios Monomachos, I find your lack of faith and trust in the judgement of our Basileus disturbing.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 14:59
Every coin has two sides, Neokaisareitis...
You have shown us only one side...
The House of Asteri asked me to join and I considered joining until I saw the direction the House was taking... A direction I could not endorse...
I don't know how my Edict could be considered as vindictive legislation... Surely not with how the Edict has been rephrased... Maybe our Basileus will choose you over me for that mission... Or will you also call him vindictive ?
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 15:01
It is not an accusation Tagaris, but a statement of fact.
Did you not sign our charter with your blood? The name is still on the list, crossed out of course. And did you not hear from me the lack of proper defenses around Durazzo, and the ease with which the settlement could be brought back into the imperial fold?
Truly, you are of bad faith and even worse character if you deny those simple facts. And though I do not always see eye to eye with my lieges in the House of Asteri, they can vouch for my word on this matter.
Your legislation is indeed aimed only at disrupting us. As Durazzo would be reclaimed by the Empire in any case and it is even mentionned in Edict 1.2. If the Basileos wants to stake claims, he can speak for himself. Or would you pretend to put speak and pass legislation in his name?
Privateerkev
06-04-2008, 15:03
Did Tagaris not say that he got the permission of the Emperor himself to propose this Edict?
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 15:04
I have not insulted you, Monomachos...
It is not I who has come here in the Senate in the ludicrous disguise of a buffoon...
In the very same breath the Senator makes an assertion and then does completely the opposite thing. And they call me the fool...
But do not start to make false assertions about me... I belong to no House and have no plans to join one at this time...
I don't care what house you do or do not belong to. The fact is you're proposing an edict to deny other houses the right to claim lands, and it's being suspiciously supported by ALL THE MEMBERS of a certain house.
You really do mistake me for a fool, don't you?
I will not deny I have been approached by the Order but have refused the offer made.
I don't care, it's none of my business who you serve.
Or do you also accuse our Basileos of partisanship ?
Hah! That's called a red herring sir. Instead of argue your point, you try to give me something tempting to argue or defend against. I will not fall for your feeble rhetorical devices which are nothing but a blatant attempt to distract from the real issues here.
You seek to deny me and my house and my colleagues the right to claim rebel provinces which we have staked a claim to for a long time now. That's all you're doing, and it's the only purpose of this edict, plain and simple. You can disguise it as "serving the emperor" all you want, but I see through your deceptive ways.
You could at least be honest. Just tell us you don't want us taking Durazzo for our house. At least be a man and own up to your political ambitions.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 15:06
Monomachos, by giving that land to the Basileus to do with it as he sees fit, I cannot see how it will deny that land to any House...
True, it might rob your House of that coveted land if the Basileus does not see fit to grant it to your House but I would trust the judgement of our Overlord to use that land as best benefits our Empire.
Moreover, your own allegiances are not so clear. Do your House have any guarantee that you will not break your oath once Dyrrakhion is taken and bring it to the Tepaki House to which you seem to also have pledged your "future" allegiance ?
The Lemongate
06-04-2008, 15:10
Of course. Why would the Emperor deny his permission? It does not address the point which is that Tagaris acts in bad faith and that the only goal of his legislation is to negate the rightful objectives of people whose faith in him he betrayed. He might have always been independent in public, but in private he had pledged himself to House of Asteri, and it is in its halls that he learned of the tactical situation of Durazzo.
If Tagaris would come out clean about his plans for the settlement, no Edict would be needed at all. Monomachos and I are not madmen (Anastasios gives a worried look towards Monomachos and sighs), and an accord could easily be reached concerning Durazzo. But the way he is acting now leaves us with little trust in the man.
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 15:11
Monomachos, by giving that land to the Basileus to do with it as he sees fit, I cannot see how it will deny that land to any House...
True, it might rob your House of that coveted land...
So you cannot see how it will deny us land, but you do see how it will rob us. How delightfully ironic.
If the Basileus does not see fit to grant it to your House but I would trust the judgement of our Overlord to use that land as best benefits our Empire.
I'd prefer the Emperor speak in his own name, thank you very much. This appeal to authority is yet another rhetorical device which is simply a tactic and nothing more.
I am not a fool to be cowed by rhetoric. Let the Emperor speak for himself and stop acting as if you were him.
Moreover, your own allegiances are not so clear. Do your House have any guarantee that you will not break your oath once Dyrrakhion is taken and bring it to the Tepaki House to which you seem to also have pledged your "future" allegiance ?
More red herrings. Since your own allegiances don't enter into the discussion, why do mine?
Stop changing the subject and address my point. You seek to deny my house and my right to claim lands for the empire and for my house. Plain and simple. Don't dare weasel out of it.
Kagemusha
06-04-2008, 15:13
The edict has been proposed and seconded. There is no need to argue about it by words. Let the votes show how the senate feels, for my part i would support the edict in its new form also, but it doesnt need more seconders.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 15:13
I care not for you trust, Neokaisareitis...
The Edict as it is worded now leaves ample leeway for the Basileus to choose whomever He likes to capture Dyrrakhion...
I truly hope I will be chosen but I will bear no grudge to any of you chosen for the task...
Can you say that much ?
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 15:15
The edict has been proposed and seconded. There is no need to argue about it by words. Let the votes show how the senate feels, for my part i would support the edict in its new form also, but it doesnt need more seconders.
I was unaware this wasn't a deliberative body whose sole purpose is to debate and make laws.
I will not be silenced by any man other than the Emperor himself. I am exposing this legislation for the feeble attempt to deny houses their right to expand that it is. None so far have been able to counter that accusation, and it still stands.
Kagemusha
06-04-2008, 15:25
I was unaware this wasn't a deliberative body whose sole purpose is to debate and make laws.
I will not be silenced by any man other than the Emperor himself. I am exposing this legislation for the feeble attempt to deny houses their right to expand that it is. None so far have been able to counter that accusation, and it still stands.
Efstratios Monomachos.All i have said has been my personal opinion. As far as i am concerned i can give out my opinions as senator of this Senate. If you dont trust the Basileos to be fair in his rule, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
_Tristan_
06-04-2008, 15:26
Since your own allegiances don't enter into the discussion, why do mine?
Stop changing the subject and address my point. You seek to deny my house and my right to claim lands for the empire and for my house. Plain and simple. Don't dare weasel out of it.
You were first to question my allegiances... Reason enough for me to question yours... As for my own allegiances, I have answered and will maintain that I have one at this point and do not envision to have some anytime soon.
I will say it once and for all my plan is not intended to deny your House of any land, though I can see that can be the unfortunate result of my Edict.
Lastly, let me say that the Head of your House was informed of the proposed Edict long before it was formulated before this House but has not seen fit to come forward with any observation concerning it...
I don't care what house you do or do not belong to. The fact is you're proposing an edict to deny other houses the right to claim lands, and it's being suspiciously supported by ALL THE MEMBERS of a certain house.
Which House exactly? Can you make a list of all the members of that particular house and refer to the statements where each individual member supported the Edict as you claim?
You seek to deny me and my house and my colleagues the right to claim rebel provinces which we have staked a claim to for a long time now. That's all you're doing, and it's the only purpose of this edict, plain and simple. You can disguise it as "serving the emperor" all you want, but I see through your deceptive ways.
You could at least be honest. Just tell us you don't want us taking Durazzo for our house. At least be a man and own up to your political ambitions.
The Edict stipulates that the Basileus will be the one who will judge over the faith of Durazzo.
Please, tell us why won't you trust the judgement of our Emperor in this matter?
Are you implying that the Basileus is incompetent?
Savvas stares at Strator Monomachos
Askthepizzaguy
06-04-2008, 15:33
Efstratios Monomachos.All i have said has been my personal opinion. As far as i am concerned i can give out my opinions as senator of this Senate. If you dont trust the Basileos to be fair in his rule, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
You can give out your opinions but dont attempt to silence mine. And why does your political faction insist on speaking as if they were the Basileos? Until he declares that you have the right to speak in his name I will continue to ignore your claims that this is his will, and any attempt by you or your allies to speak for him.
You were first to question my allegiances... Reason enough for me to question yours... As for my own allegiances, I have answered and will maintain that I have one at this point and do not envision to have some anytime soon.
I will state again: I don't care what your allegiances are. They don't enter into this discussion in my mind. If I was originally mistaken as to which house you belonged to, that point is long past us, and it makes no difference to me.
I will say it once and for all my plan is not intended to deny your House of any land, though I can see that that be the unfortunate result of my Edict.
Such honourable intentions... why would I object to denying my house land, with such good intentions.
The road to hell is paved with them.
Lastly, let me say that the Head of your House was informed of the proposed Edict long before it was formulated before this House but has not seen fit to come forward with any observation concerning it...
It doesn't matter to me whom you spoke to. The head of the House of the Asteri has already granted me my leave and that house does not speak for me.
My point remains unanswered. WHY IS THIS EDICT NECESSARY?
Why can we not simply claim rebel provinces for the empire? What business of yours is it which ones I take, especially if you don't seek them yourself?
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.