The Thirty Years War [Concluded]

[Centurion1]

i say status quo france, frnace your proposal is outrageous swiss and spaiards can keep their italian lands, you get back all of original france and give savoy to the swiss.

and i want that hex in s. germany

[Subotan]

I like this. :yes: I like it a lot.
It's not acceptable, I'm afraid. As I mentioned before, it would just leave a massive vacuum in-between Spain and France, just waiting to be filled; and start another war. Likewise, filling it with Spain or Switzerland is not acceptable either; it wouldn't solve anything. That's why a Kingdom of Italy needs to be established, to act as a barrier between France and Spain.


Apart from the fact that there is no way I'm giving up naples in a million years without a heck of a fight I only agree to status quo france, not status quo europe.
Hmm. How about a Kingdom of Umbria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbria) then, which would include all the territory I marked on the map with the line, except Naples?


i say status quo france, frnace your proposal is outrageous swiss and spaiards can keep their italian lands, you get back all of original france

I have explained my position. It threatens the sovereignty of France to agree to such a plan. My proposal is fair, as no-one person gains the upper hand. I loose out as much as Spain does; in doing so, I renounce my claims on Italy which I inherited from the Savoyards. It's just my loss is much more abstract and less tangible than Spain's is.


and give savoy to the swiss.
Preposterous. They did not contest that region, I inherited it perfectly legally, and they do not deserve.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

It's not acceptable, I'm afraid. As I mentioned before, it would just leave a massive vacuum in-between Spain and France, just waiting to be filled; and start another war. Likewise, filling it with Spain or Switzerland is not acceptable either; it wouldn't solve anything. That's why a Kingdom of Italy needs to be established, to act as a barrier between France and Spain.


Hmm. How about a Kingdom of Umbria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbria) then, which would include all the territory I marked on the map with the line, except Naples?

Then we make a demilitarized zone in Italy and Savoy. Both sides can have a maximum of 2 units in Italy as garrisons, and all other Military build up is restricted. That would mean that would stop any fighting in the area, unless someone wanted to compose there army totally of mercs hired in one turn. Also, all troops would have to be at least 2 hexes from a foreign border.

You have to realize you are asking both the Spanish and Swiss soemthing they will never do :shrug: Compromise.

I am making a treaty I think would be fair to everyone, show you in a bit what I have.

[Subotan]

Then we make a demilitarized zone in Italy and Savoy. Both sides can have a maximum of 2 units in Italy as garrisons, and all other Military build up is restricted. That would mean that would stop any fighting in the area, unless someone wanted to compose there army totally of mercs hired in one turn. Also, all troops would have to be at least 2 hexes from a foreign border.

That's not practical, and it doesn't solve the underlying problem of "Who controls Italy?" There would still be disputes, and as soon as war broke out (Which it would, as your plan doesn't solve the Italian Question), that treaty would be disregarded, and we'd back to square one.

My proposal is thinking about the long term, and the big picture, and is a permanent solution to the Italian Question.



You have to realize you are asking both the Spanish and Swiss soemthing they will never do :shrug: Compromise.

I have compromised. I reduced the size of Umbria by 7 Hexes, restoring everyone to their original borders.



I am making a treaty I think would be fair to everyone, show you in a bit what I have.

Your idea is fair in that nobody has won yet. My idea is fair in that everyone wins.

[Centurion1]

subotan greyblades just said he would give you everything he took to you back and he wouldnt ask for payment???? thats as good as its going to get. and i feel that the swiss are entitled to something after being, lets face it, attacked randomly.

[Greyblades]

Look lets make a deal, we let you keep savoy and we keep italy, deal?

[Subotan]

subotan greyblades just said he would give you everything he took to you back and he wouldnt ask for payment????
I'm going to oust him from France this turn anyway. I'll be laying siege to Madrid in conjunction with the Portuguese when the report is posted up. Rather, it's a question of me giving back what I took.

and i feel that the swiss are entitled to something after being, lets face it, attacked randomly.
I'm not going back over whether it was right for me to attack Switzerland again, as CDF said, it's in the past. However, they most certainly do not deserve anything, otherwise that sets a precedent of rewarding countries that start wars for the very act of provoking conflict.

Look lets make a deal, we let you keep savoy and we keep italy, deal?
I'd say my offer is pretty fair. I've compromised, and I've found a solution that leaves everyone slightly disgruntled; a sure sign of a fair deal, as there's no obvious winner.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

That's not practical, and it doesn't solve the underlying problem of "Who controls Italy?" There would still be disputes, and as soon as war broke out (Which it would, as your plan doesn't solve the Italian Question), that treaty would be disregarded, and we'd back to square one.

My proposal is thinking about the long term, and the big picture, and is a permanent solution to the Italian Question.



You are talking about reducing the Swiss to 4 hexes. With no room to expand. THAT will lead to another war. The question of who owns Italy is simple, Spain and Switzerland do. They have the land there, and it belongs to them. If you are not going to accept that then we are just going to face a long war. They are not going to give something like that up for nothing.

Unless you are willing to back up your proposal with a lot of cash and ect. then you need to accept that Italy belongs to those two. The treaty would give any nation ample warning that they are going to be attacked, and give them time to prepare and reprimand the belligerent. What more does one need? :inquisitive: At the very least it makes a war a much less profitable prospect. That is as close to a permanent solution as you can get.

[Subotan]

You are talking about reducing the Swiss to 4 hexes. With no room to expand.


Due to their own failings (Starting wars, ignoring diplomatic cautions etc.) and misguided diplomacy (Such as swapping a large part of Southern Germany in return for some mercs; WTF?). I should not be expected to reward the Swiss for being overly-aggressive. Besides, that was my original plan to start the war, and is certainly a lot less harsh than what they were proposing to do to me.


The question of who owns Italy is simple, Spain and Switzerland do. They have the land there, and it belongs to them. If you are not going to accept that then we are just going to face a long war. They are not going to give something like that up for nothing.

I'm not gaining a single inch of territory in this deal. I am not acting out of short term greed, but for peace in Europe.

And if we're going to use that argument, then under no circumstances will I be ceding Savoy to the Swiss under those terms, never.


Unless you are willing to back up your proposal with a lot of cash and ect. then you need to accept that Italy belongs to those two.
Sure, I could compensate them.


The treaty would give any nation ample warning that they are going to be attacked, and give them time to prepare and reprimand the belligerent. What more does one need? :inquisitive: At the very least it makes a war a much less profitable prospect. That is as close to a permanent solution as you can get.
Great in theory. Probably won't work in practice. My proposal makes back stabbing and skulduggery impossible.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Due to their own failings (Starting wars, ignoring diplomatic cautions etc.) and misguided diplomacy (Such as swapping a large part of Southern Germany in return for some mercs; WTF?). I should not be expected to reward the Swiss for being overly-aggressive. Besides, that was my original plan to start the war, and is certainly a lot less harsh than what they were proposing to do to me.



I'm not gaining a single inch of territory in this deal. I am not acting out of short term greed, but for peace in Europe.

And if we're going to use that argument, then under no circumstances will I be ceding Savoy to the Swiss under those terms, never.


Sure, I could compensate them.


Great in theory. Probably won't work in practice. My proposal makes back stabbing and skulduggery impossible.

I am just going to let you lot handle the diplomacy and treaty. You all know the situation better. :shame: I just don't know what I am doing here obviously.

[Greyblades]

Subotan, the only one still calling for war here is you, I doubt that England and Portugal are going to support you when its you disrupting the power balance.

[Subotan]

Subotan, the only one still calling for war here is you,
I'm not calling for war under any circumstances. I'm trying to arrange a fair deal.


I doubt that England and Portugal are going to support you when its you disrupting the power balance.
My proposal permanently aligns the balance of power so that no one power is strongest in Italy, and that there are reliable and permanent measures in place to keep it that way.

[Greyblades]

Tell me, what is the problem? Sure, I am going to be having a higher income due to it me taking central italy, but it isnt exactly stratiegically important, heck it doesnt even border your lands. Why are you being so stubborn about something that doesnt even affect you?

[Subotan]

Tell me, what is the problem? Sure, I am going to be having a higher income due to it me taking central italy, but it isnt exactly stratiegically important, heck it doesnt even border your lands. Why are you being so stubborn about something that doesnt even affect you?
There's going to be dispute over Italy continuously., until a third party comes along and makes sure that nobody gets the upper hand in Italy. Likewise, a state which comprises just the Po Valley is not practically viable, and only serves to pen the Swiss in. The establishment of an Umbrian Kingdom keeps all three parties happy, and safe from each other.

[Greyblades]

..No it only keeps you happy and it keeps me from beong able to come to switzerlands aid when you inevitably try to take him out in one fell swoop when the rest of us are busy. England just tell him to sit down and accept what he's getting before he makes himself look even worse.

[Subotan]

I have no intention of conquering Switzerland. I have stated that many many many times, as well as the fact that I am quite prepared to return to normal relations with the Swiss once this war is over. Should Switzerland act amiably to all countries, than I see no reason why we can't have a long lasting, positive relationship, as I originally intended.

[Askthepizzaguy]

All I can do is shake my head in disbelief and laugh.

[Centurion1]

you can all go ********* im tired of this crap you all wanna continue this war ill sell you whatever troops you want to make it go faster. no preferences for me anyone who can afford them gets arms and men.

France you are being unreasonable, you should enjoy the idea of france resotred to previous borders. absolutely foolish

[Greyblades]

I have no intention of conquering Switzerland. I have stated that many many many times, as well as the fact that I am quite prepared to return to normal relations with the Swiss once this war is over. Should Switzerland act amiably to all countries, than I see no reason why we can't have a long lasting, positive relationship, as I originally intended.

No. I'm through with making compromises, I'm only willing to go so far for peace, either take my offer or leave it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

France, you are pressing your luck. In all seriousness, you're not doing yourself any favors.

If you do think yourself in a militarily superior position, put your money where your mouth is, and allow England and Saxony to go about their business, while Spain deals with Spanish matters. I already offered to settle this on the battlefield warrior to warrior, if you had the cards, this is your ticket to victory. Stop wasting everyone's time.

If you realize that you have lost this war, then you must also accept that there are reparations to be made for starting the war, and a loss of territory to be had. The loser of the war does not dictate terms, because then the war continues.

So make a clean choice; either meet me on the field of battle, where to the victor go the spoils, for all the marbles, or stop posturing and annoying what allies you have and accept the terms of peace offered to you by your betters. :laugh4:

[Subotan]

you can all go ********* im tired of this crap you all wanna continue this war ill sell you whatever troops you want to make it go faster.
You think this is bad? Versailles took two months to negotiate. We haven't even spent two days.

no preferences for me anyone who can afford them gets arms and men.
Whatever happened to the pursuit of the balance of power?


France you are being unreasonable, you should enjoy the idea of france resotred to previous borders. absolutely foolish
Explain where I am being unreasonable. I have Spain and Switzerland by the balls. I am not making any huge, outrageous demands like the whole of Italy, Catalonia and half of Leon, or the annexation of Switzerland. I am merely trying to set up a system which guarantees peace in Italy, and allows a player who wants to join to join.


No. I'm through with making compromises, I'm only willing to go so far for peace, either take my offer or leave it.
Hooray for Diplomacy!
I can't believe you were the one saying I was the one "calling for war".


If you do think yourself in a militarily superior position, put your money where your mouth is, and allow England and Saxony to go about their business, while Spain deals with Spanish matters. I already offered to settle this on the battlefield warrior to warrior, if you had the cards, this is your ticket to victory. Stop wasting everyone's time.
That won't solve anything. I do not want to conquer you, and it still leaves the Italian Question open.


If you realize that you have lost this war, then you must also accept that there are reparations to be made for starting the war, and a loss of territory to be had. The loser of the war does not dictate terms, because then the war continues.
I accept that. I did just that with England earlier. But I am not in that situation now. And yet I am still calling for a peace which is favourable to everyone.


So make a clean choice; either meet me on the field of battle, where to the victor go the spoils, for all the marbles, or stop posturing and annoying what allies you have and accept the terms of peace offered to you by your betters. :laugh4:
Were this a war game, I would. But it's not, it's game of diplomacy, set in the Early Modern Era where such contests are trivial and primitive. Therefore, I must decline, because it's not in the spirit of the game to do so.


Uh huh, got us by the balls... tell me how long has this delusion of grandure been going on for and has anyone close to you been displaying these symptoms?
I hardly think that the army sitting outside Madrid is a delusion.

[Greyblades]

Uh huh, got us by the balls... tell me how long has this delusion of grandure been going on for and has anyone close to you been displaying these symptoms?

[Centurion1]

i am preserving the balance of power. by selling armies to EVERYONE!!!!

if anyone is interested throw me a formal communique.

the problem is we dont know if you are telling the truth about these "armies" and the fact that spain has an army with god knows how many regulars and 10000 mercs which is a god awful amount of mercs. and the swiss have their own large army.

[Subotan]

i am preserving the balance of power. by selling armies to EVERYONE!!!!

if anyone is interested throw me a formal communique.

Huh, I trust you'll be discerning.



the problem is we dont know if you are telling the truth about these "armies" and the fact that spain has an army with god knows how many regulars and 10000 mercs which is a god awful amount of mercs. and the swiss have their own large army.
I haven't overstated. It's not in my interest as I know I'd get found out next turn. And if you want proof check out the next report.

[Greyblades]

Well seeing as I havent gotten my economy report yet that could be a long time coming.

[Double A]

Speculation does not do you well, kiddies.


I thought it was that you and the Swiss are allied to the Ottoman Empire and allowed the Ottoman Empire to have Corisa so they were able to field an army in Western Europe?

Also, the new Austria has changed policies and now working in-line with the Ottoman Empire leaving former allies out to dry. (Transylvannia)

Not really. That was just me. Wacky, impulsive me. Interestingly enough, the only nation to know that I'd be landing in Corsica was Portugal.


Responsibility for a war does not lie with who declared war, or whose soldiers crossed the border first. Switzerland chose to ignore my polite, well considered recommendations, and then my warnings. He knew what the consequences would be.[QUOTE]

Well, you did declare war and take Swiss land before Pizza knew WTF had happened.

[QUOTE]Oh? Interesting. I'm sure some of the powers which are closer to the Turk would be interested that he is sending his army on unjustified foreign expeditions, leaving his homeland undefended. It's also interesting that the Spanish and Swiss are so desperate as to seek assistance from the heathen.

It was justified. I didn't want you to get it. Isn't that reason enough? And undefended?

...

Oh sorry I was waiting for the punchline.


Is this true? What does Austria have to gain from that Faustian Pact?

Faustian? I didn't know you were involved.


I was thinking of a set up like
https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll286/Phalanxia/30YW_kingdoms_turn7.jpg
With the Green line indicating the establishment of a Kingdom of Italy, to govern over Italy and prevent the cause of this war sparking conflict ever again. Possibly that new player CDF wanted could be the King of the Italians?

You're cutting Pizza off from any expansion and all ports. He'd have to be at war with one of 4 much larger nations for the rest of the game. And I've already said I'd let CDF's friend play as the Crimean Khanate. Nation in a good position, and it's already established. It just has to deal with 4 of its hexes missing, but I'd gladly make up for that tenfold.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Not really. That was just me. Wacky, impulsive me. Interestingly enough, the only nation to know that I'd be landing in Corsica was Portugal.


Interestingly enough, I assumed you were going to use that navy to sneak attack the Austrians Harbor and rush to his capitol. :juggle2: Corsica never crossed my mind.

[Centurion1]

look subotans plan is unacceptable to everyone here.

yeah i thought you were going to rush austria behind the front were they are undefended as well.

[Double A]

I find it curious how the person worst off in the war is starting to give terms...

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Hey, what exactly is your plan for Corsica? :inquisitive:

[Double A]

I'll get back to you on that when I think of one.

[Beskar]

He went there to bring back some wimmen.

[Subotan]

:wall:

That was not the plan which I proposed, I made significant alterations to my original plan which nobody seems to have taken a blind bit of notice of. I compromised.
https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll286/Phalanxia/30YW_kingdoms_turn7-1.jpg
Now, nobody loses any territory which they originally owned, and everyone wins. It is very simple, a permanent solution, and it allows a new player to come into the game with a meaningful amount of territory. You cannot expect a new player to be given the pathetic slice of territory that is the Crimea, and think that he will enjoy it.
EDIT: Scratch that Portuguese concession on the Baleares, that way nobody loses any original territory.

I find it curious how the person worst off in the war is starting to give terms...
I find it curious that somebody who isn't even involved in the war is starting to give snarky comments that are not helpful and only serve to divide Christendom. As I have stated so many times before, I am the one in the advantageous position. I am proposing a peace which is beneficial to all, and I am willing to provide compensation for lands lost.

[miotas]

How do vassal states work? Maybe central Italy could become a vassal of Spain (unless another player wishes to join)? I don't really see any reason for the Swiss to give up their northern Italian lands.

[Subotan]

How do vassal states work? Maybe central Italy could become a vassal of Spain (unless another player wishes to join)?

Hmm, intersting. I proposed a Condominium, in that we all agree to guaranteee Umbria's independence, but that it has free reign in it's own internal and external affairs.


I don't really see any reason for the Swiss to give up their northern Italian lands.
Umbria isn't viable if it only has Central Italy. Although maybe the addition of just Venetia to Umbria, leaving Switzerland with Lombardy could work...

With regards to "Switzerland has No room for Expansion", I'd like to point out that that argument is baseless and stupid. Transylvania has no room to expand. The Dutch have no room to expand. So should we just eternally surrender land to Switzerland to allow it to continue expanding, just because they want some kind of proto-Lebensraum?

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Look, Spain has already said he is not going to accept giving up Italy. France they have given you an excellent peace treaty, can you just accept it and let us all move on? I am willing to give back both hexes of Normandy I have if you just leave Italy to the Swiss and Spanish.



With regards to "Switzerland has No room for Expansion", I'd like to point out that that argument is baseless and stupid. Transylvania has no room to expand. The Dutch have no room to expand. So should we just eternally surrender land to Switzerland to allow it to continue expanding, just because they want some kind of proto-Lebensraum?

Yeah, but both those other nations have a port and are coastal. Which means that Theoretically they CAN expand. What is the Swiss going to do with 4 hexes? Build three buildings then what? He is going to construct another army obviously, what else. It will lead to another war if you cut the Swiss off like that.



You are being Unreasonable.

[Subotan]

Look, Spain has already said he is not going to accept giving up Italy

I'm not suggesting that he give up the entirety of Italy. I have made that very clear multiple times.


France they have given you an excellent peace treaty, can you just accept it and let us all move on?
It's excellent in that it doesn't resolve any problems whatsoever. What he is proposing will be achieved within two turns anyway.



Yeah, but both those other nations have a port and are coastal. Which means that Theoretically they CAN expand

Lol wut? Where are they going to expand? Transylvanian Georgia? Dutch Arkhangelsk? Or is every unclaimed Hex on the Map now just waiting to become a part of some Swiss Thalassocracy? That argument is just silly.


What is the Swiss going to do with 4 hexes? Build three buildings then what? He is going to construct another army obviously, what else

I have compromised, both regarding the Spanish and the Swiss. I have altered the map to show that I do not wish to impede Spain's holdings in Naples, and I stated that Switzerland could have Lombardy, in return for the establishment of an Umbrian State, comprising Central Italy and Ventia.


It will lead to another war if you cut the Swiss off like that.


If anything is going to result in another war, it's indulging and rewarding the Swiss for being aggressive. What you are proposing is paradoxical; you claim that the Swiss should be allowed to expand, but that my idea is bad as it will create conflict.


You are being Unreasonable.

I have compromised multiple times, such as with Naples, compensation and Lombardy, but Spain and Switzerland are refusing to budge. The ball is now in their court.

[Greyblades]

No, the point of this treaty is to restore your lands the way they were there by restoring the status quo, if you want to start up an italian state do it on your own time.

[Subotan]

Since people seem to still not understand what I am proposing, I will post it again.

https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll286/Phalanxia/30YW_kingdoms_turn7-2.jpg

As you can see, I have made many alterations to my original proposal. I no longer think it practical or fair that the Baleares be ceded to Portugal, or that Naples should be paret of this Umbrian Kingdom. Likewise, I have come to the conclusion that Switzerland should, under this plan, be allowed access to the Med. This leaves a state which would be comprised of only Venice and Central Italy. This is 12 Hexes smaller than I originally envisagned it, reducing it to 16 Hexes, and almost 50% smaller than my original plan. That is compromise, and if anyone is being "unreasonable" or "unacceptable", it is most certainly not France.


No, the point of this treaty is to restore your lands the way they were there by restoring the status quo
The status quo is what caused this war in the first place. My solution solves that problem without making any one country too powerful; thus making everybody happy. Everyone involved has had concessions, and I have presented a plan which is agreeable and fair. Returning to the status quo is the coward's way out, and only sets the course for more conflict.

[Greyblades]

Subotan just repeating the same damn thing over and over again with small alterations is not going to move me. An realy its not the status quo that got us in this mess but how you dealt with it. Or, more accurately, how you didn't deal with it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have never seen such ridiculousness.

We have two massive armies roaming the French captial and fortress, with all of my territory in my hands and some of France's, and Spain just slit France in two. Now France is telling me I am allowed to have my 4 starting hexes plus some of the unclaimed territory I claimed right away. He also gets all of France back and he also gets to dictate who controls Italy. What kind of drugs would make you think Spain wants to give up Italy? For what reason? Man, I can't take it anymore. Would you gentlemen kindly just stand back and let the swiss mop up this mess?

I stand by my original proposal England, you and the Netherlands can have 1/3 of France, I'll have 1/3 and Spain will have 1/3. There's really no reason to allow this clowning to continue. This might just as well be a serious diplomatic meeting, with one member taking a huge steaming dump right on all of the scrolls detailing the peace plan, smacking his own buttocks and waving his naked rear end in our faces.

Obviously this means he thinks he can take our armies head on, so let's make that happen. It's much more satisfying for there to be a clear winner. No sense dragging it out.

[Askthepizzaguy]

i am preserving the balance of power. by selling armies to EVERYONE!!!!

if anyone is interested throw me a formal communique.

the problem is we dont know if you are telling the truth about these "armies" and the fact that spain has an army with god knows how many regulars and 10000 mercs which is a god awful amount of mercs. and the swiss have their own large army.

Ours is of comparable size or larger.

Confession: We didn't build it all by ourselves. :wink:

[Subotan]

Subotan just repeating the same damn thing over and over again with small alterations is not going to move me.

Right, now I'm annoyed. You may accuse me of being overly-aggressive, stupid in attacking Switzerland, a liar with regards to how many soldiers I have, cocky or anything else in a similar manner which it could be interepreted that I have shown. But I must certainly have not been "repeating the same damn thing over and over again". If it feels like I have, then that is because some people here do not understand basic concepts of diplomacy, such as national sovereignty, balance of power and sphere of influence.

You say that I need to make a lot of concessions. Which I have done, and I'm not going to bother listing again. Now it's your turn. I have not made outrageous demands; I could easily have demanded to annex Switzerland, or take Catalonia. I have not, and I have not made proposals which shrink anyone's original territory. It does not seriously impede the ability of anyone to wage war, and it allows a new player to join the game. There is nothing fundamentally unfair or unjust about my heavily diluted proposal.

And you still have to offer an explanation as to why your proposition is somehow fairer than mine. Your plan is inferior in every single way imaginable.


An realy its not the status quo that got us in this mess but how you dealt with it.
Probably the most naive statement in the entire thread.


I have never seen such ridiculousness.

We have two massive armies roaming the French captial and fortress, with all of my territory in my hands and some of France's, and Spain just slit France in two. Now France is telling me I am allowed to have my 4 starting hexes plus some of the unclaimed territory I claimed right away. He also gets all of France back and he also gets to dictate who controls Italy. What kind of drugs would make you think Spain wants to give up Italy? For what reason? Man, I can't take it anymore. Would you gentlemen kindly just stand back and let the swiss mop up this mess?

Whatever. You keep spouting nonsense about something you obviously have no idea about.



I stand by my original proposal England, you and the Netherlands can have 1/3 of France, I'll have 1/3 and Spain will have 1/3. There's really no reason to allow this clowning to continue. This might just as well be a serious diplomatic meeting, with one member taking a huge steaming dump right on all of the scrolls detailing the peace plan, smacking his own buttocks and waving his naked rear end in our faces.

Obviously this means he thinks he can take our armies headn, so let's make that happen. It's much more satisfying for there to be a clear winner. No sense dragging it out.

This is the kind of bull:daisy: I have to deal with?

[Greyblades]

Your not making any bleeding concessions! You're getting all your lands back for crying out loud. The only thing you would lose with my offer is some face and as far as I can see thats not a very valuable comodity to you.

[Subotan]

Look at the maps. I have systematically reduced my proposal numerous times in response to criticism from the parties involved. And yet I hear no offers of concession from those same parties.

[Greyblades]

Thats because this proposed treaty is about the war not italy's status in continental politics.

[Subotan]

Thats because this proposed treaty is about the war not italy's status in continental politics.

And the war was originally about Italy. If we don't resolve Italy's status, then the war will all have been for nothing. My proposal solves that problem without making any one country dominant, and without taking anyone's original territory away.

[Greyblades]

What!? This war has zilch to do with italy this was all about your objections to switzerlands right to expand.

[Beskar]

You can say these talks are over. Just invade eachother.

[Subotan]

What!? This war has zilch to do with italy this was all about your objections to switzerlands right to expand.
In Italy. So, it has everything to do with Italy.

Besides, you didn't answer my criticism of your plan. Why is your plan fairer, more permanent and more likely to keep the peace than mine?

You can say these talks are over. Just invade eachother.
Don't be a pessimist. I'm sure you've got more stamina than that.

[Greyblades]

In Italy. So, it has everything to do with Italy.

Besides, you didn't answer my criticism of your plan. Why is your plan fairer, more permanent and more likely to keep the peace than mine?

The fact that its the only viable one that everyone will agree to that doesnt end in half your lands taken.

[Subotan]

The fact that its the only viable one that everyone will agree to that doesnt end in half your lands taken.

That assumes that I am in a very precarious position, both diplomatically, an/or militarily. I am neither. I am busy laying siege to Madrid with the aid of allies, and the Northern Alliance is more sympathetic to my cause than yours. To be fair though, we won't know how your army in France has faired against the English until the report comes in. I'd recommend that we delay the signing of a treaty until that report comes out.

My proposal doesn't even increase France's power or wealth by one Franc. It creates the foundations for lasting peace amongst our nations, without one power becoming dominant, Switzerland gets to expand and have a coastline, and a new player who wants to join the game and not be relegated to a vassal of the Turk can. What is there not to like?

[Greyblades]

Have you looked at the proper map recently? You have it backwards; your capital is taken, your armies are so far gone you are resorting to bluffs and even your own friends are sick and tired of your incessently unreasonable counter-proposals. And while yes it doesn't increase your income but it reduces mine and seeing as I'm winning I sure as hell am not going to agree to it.

[Beskar]

Being honest, this is the opinion of the Northern Alliance - "Just invade eachother already other than spamming the thread for over 15 pages and getting no where."

The Northern Alliance at first would have liked a solution where France was alive, just because a lot of players dropped like flies. So they were happy for any deals which both sides could agree too. Since it is obvious to everyone bar France that France is in the weakest position and would hypothetically, get worse. The opinion of the Northern Alliance is for France to take Greyblades generous offer where he basically said he would return the land he took to France.

As for Italy, France has no claims over Italy, and isn't in much of a position to dictate any terms there. As Pizza put it "Put your armies where your mouth is" and claimed by Cultured Drizzt fan, feel free to pay the costs and cessions of making his italy idea happen (not just ask for it). It also cuts Switzerland off from expansion, and being a small power like Switzerland which had to give up land and expansion, I know exactly how the Swiss feel, and that it victimisation by bullies at that suggestion. If I was the Swiss, I would be fighting as well.

I think Greyblades made a very generous offer of basically pre-war borders, if France pushes the issue and wants to demand for more, he won't recieve any international aid.

[Subotan]

Have you looked at the proper map recently? You have it backwards; your capital is taken
Temporarily.


your armies are so far gone you are resorting to bluffs
Wrong. If you're in denial, that's cool, as it will just make it easier for me.


and even your own friends are sick and tired
What are they sick and tired of? Is it the process of negotiating, where I have compromised oh so many times? If so, they should quit the game now, because that's how diplomacy works. It's long, it's gruelling, and it's hard. This isn't a Total War Game where you just say "I'll have this province and this one in return for some map information, K?" or where it is plausible or advisable to conquer everyone on the map.

But I don't think that is what they're sick and tired of. They're sick and tired of the lack of progress. And why is there no progress? Is it me, obstructing, and refusing compromise at every turn? No. I have, on my own accord, slimmed down my proposal three times. And yet I haven't heard even a whisper of any similar moves from my opponents. Well, I've compromised enough. I've made a fair offer, a feasible offer, which includes elements that I personally disagree with, namely, Switzerland owning Milan. That is the nature of compromise, by swallowing bitter pills in order to get a treatment. My plan is a good treatment of Italy, and it will not be watered down any further.


incessently unreasonable counter-proposals.
Not true, as shown by both the paragraph and the various maps above.


H. And while yes it doesn't increase your income but it reduces mine
And yet your plan, returning to pre-war borders, does exactly the same thing. That's a bit odd. (Especially considering that you're not losing any territory you started the game with, and that nobody is)


seeing as I'm winning
Not true.


I sure as hell am not going to agree to it.
The very antithesis of diplomacy. No counter offers, no compromises, no attempts to meet half way. Tsk.


Being honest, this is the opinion of the Northern Alliance - "Just invade eachother already other than spamming the thread for over 15 pages and getting no where."
I want a solution to this war as well. Endless fighting doesn't help anyone. However, I have tried everything in my power to present a peace that is favourable to all involved, fair, practical, permanent, doesn't increase one nation's power too much and brings that new player. I have then made alterations and edits to that plan, at the behest of Spain and Switzerland. And yet they refuse to even come up with an alternate proposal that meets me and them halfway.



The Northern Alliance at first would have liked a solution where France was alive, just because a lot of players dropped like flies. So they were happy for any deals which both sides could agree too. Since it is obvious to everyone bar France that France is in the weakest position and would hypothetically, get worse.
I'm not in the weakest position. If Spain and Switzerland want to test that, fine, but it's their loss.


The opinion of the Northern Alliance is for France to take Greyblades generous offer where he basically said he would return the land he took to France.
I will have taken the majority of that territory back by next turn. And even if I haven't, I will have equalled it by carving a corridor from the Pyrenees to Madrid. A simple land swap would be no problem.



As for Italy, France has no claims over Italy, and isn't in much of a position to dictate any terms there. As Pizza put it "Put your armies where your mouth is"

Done. I currently have an Army camped in Southern Switzerland.


feel free to pay the costs and cessions of making his italy idea happen (not just ask for it).

Done. I mentioned that before as well.



It also cuts Switzerland off from expansion, and being a small power like Switzerland which had to give up land and expansion, I know exactly how the Swiss feel, and that it victimisation by bullies at that suggestion. If I was the Swiss, I would be fighting as well.

My latest proposal solves CDF's criticism regarding that, even though I personally disagree with it. And I've already explained why their Divine Right of Expansion is bogus.



I think Greyblades made a very generous offer of basically pre-war borders, if France pushes the issue and wants to demand for more, he won't recieve any international aid.
The bizarre thing is, I'm being seen as the bad guy. As if my plan will make me into the mightiest power in Europe. It doesn't . I gain no territory from this. Spain and Switzerland are the ones asking for more.

[Greyblades]

Tell me subotan, have you ever heard of the phrase looking the gift horse in the mouth?

[Subotan]

Naturally. But I don't see why I should be forced to have one mangy horse, when all four of us can have nice horses.

[Greyblades]

Because you're demanding two Stallions when you only need a mule. Mate your being given back everything we've taken for free why are you so adamant about something that wont even affect you in the slightest?

[Subotan]

That's not an apt analogy, and you admit it in the sentence after. I'm giving everyone a fine hunter, and the mechanism to make sure that nobody can take anyone elses. That's why it affects me, as having Spain on my Italian Border is threatening. Likewise, you must notice that as well; surely you're smart enough to realise that there you are in at least a little bit of danger from bordering me. By creating a buffer Kingdom in-between all three of us, I'm keeping all of our respective Italian possessions safe, including yours.
And I know; I still border Switzerland I hear you cry. I won't be able to help Switzerland when the sly Frogs inevitably attack them you say. But me having a long border along the Pyrenees is enough of a deterrent to make me think twice about such a deed, and regardless, I have no designs upon Switzerland's land. I am not a threat, since the very thing which I attacked you over will be resolved by this treaty, as I recognise your right to rule in Italy.

It is a win-win-win-win-win treaty. France wins, Spain wins, Switzerland wins, Europe as a whole wins, due to a balance in Italy, and this new player wins (Unless we set up some sort of vassal condominium, whereby all three of us take 1/3rd of the income from each Hex or something).

[Greyblades]

It doesnt matter that I cant make a good analogy. Look mate every one else says they dont want it or just dont care, I dont want it as italy is allready mine, switzerland doesnt want it as it would be cut off from the help and England, portugal and saxony dont care as it doent affect them. The only one benefiting is you and to be quite frank thats not realy much incentive, just take your lands and stop wasting forum space on something that isnt going to happen.

[Chaotix]

Subotan, it's quite simple.

The reason Greyblades is offering you the generous (and it is quite generous) proposal that he is, is because he doesn't want a war with England and Saxony as well as France- because he won't be able to handle that.

The reason that CDF and Cent are supporting you is because they don't want to see you swallowed up by Spain and Switzerland. They don't want you to expand, or necessarily even to get all of your original land back. They want you as a substantial nation that can defend itself, NOT as a superpower to eclipse Spain.

You have been given a peace offer that will allow you to survive and prosper, and one that CDF and Cent view as more than reasonable. If you try to push it further, I doubt they will support you in a war any longer when you were offered a decent peace. And if you don't have their support, then you really will lose to Spain. And the peace deal you accept then will be far worse than the one being handed to you on a silver platter now.

Take the peace deal. You can settle the score with the Swiss and Spanish later. England is only going to support the weaker side; as soon as one gains the upper hand, he will support the other.

[Greyblades]

Actually portugal is more of a concern than saxony but yeah thats about right.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Subotan, it's quite simple.

The reason Greyblades is offering you the generous (and it is quite generous) proposal that he is, is because he doesn't want a war with England and Saxony as well as France- because he won't be able to handle that.

The reason that CDF and Cent are supporting you is because they don't want to see you swallowed up by Spain and Switzerland. They don't want you to expand, or necessarily even to get all of your original land back. They want you as a substantial nation that can defend itself, NOT as a superpower to eclipse Spain.

You have been given a peace offer that will allow you to survive and prosper, and one that CDF and Cent view as more than reasonable. If you try to push it further, I doubt they will support you in a war any longer when you were offered a decent peace. And if you don't have their support, then you really will lose to Spain. And the peace deal you accept then will be far worse than the one being handed to you on a silver platter now.

Take the peace deal. You can settle the score with the Swiss and Spanish later. England is only going to support the weaker side; as soon as one gains the upper hand, he will support the other.


I resent that...... It is more complicated then "I support whoever is weaker" :sweatdrop:

I am not going to get a reputation for backstabbing everyone I ally with simply because they start winning :shrug: Just because I did it this one time does not mean I plan on making a habit out of it.

I am going to stick with France. That is my word on the matter.


However, I do agree with the peace treaty spain has brought forth. I REALLY want a peace treaty to work out. I am not here for some long boring war that will ruin both sides of the conflict. France your idea of Compromise seems flawed to me. Mostly because you have given up absolutely nothing.

If you really want to see this Italian kingdom work then give up Savoy to the Swiss and make Milan and Venice into the buffer kingdom. :shrug: I am not saying that is what you should do, but it would prove to us you are committed to this buffer kingdom, as well as allowing the Spanish to keep their Sphere of influence in Italy.

[Greyblades]

Um exactly why should we let him have a buffer kingdom anyway? Me and switzerland are allies. Its not exactly like we realy need someone to keep us from invading eachother.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Um exactly why should we let him have a buffer kingdom anyway? Me and switzerland are allies. Its not exactly like we realy need someone to keep us from invading eachother.

...... Being Honest I have no idea. :shrug: I see no reason in a Italian kingdom to separate Spain and the Swiss. :juggle2:

[Beskar]

Make it so the Papel States is the buffer Kingdom which is a vassal. Surrender Savoy to Swizterland and allow the Swiss to keep Milan and Venice. Now that be the fair deal if you really want your Italian idea, as you give up land in return for it to happen.

If you want to keep status quo of your area, just take the peace that is offered.


The Netherlands is pulling out of this conflict officially now as it sees the best deal has already been offered. Netherlands also requests Britain to withdraw support if the deal is not settled, it looks like your support already had the effect of making this deal possible and there is nothing further you can do and it is fruitless for you to continue.

[Greyblades]

I have allready stated that I am not giving up my italian lands.

[Beskar]

I have allready stated that I am not giving up my italian lands.

Then that leaves one obvious choice.

[slashandburn]

I just want this all to go away so something can happen not invovling france. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I just want this all to go away so something can happen not invovling france. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

Start a war then, that is always good for a couple of pages of talk :wink:




But as an aside I have yet to get my economic stuff, and so did not send orders.


I am taking this extension due to Ibn's absence as a blessing, as it gives us time to iron out this peace treaty. (although I dearly hope nothing is wrong with Ibn...... :shame:)

[Centurion1]

you are all so illogical, especially france. gah, the options here are pretty obvious

[Double A]

I find it curious that somebody who isn't even involved in the war is starting to give snarky comments that are not helpful and only serve to divide Christendom. As I have stated so many times before, I am the one in the advantageous position. I am proposing a peace which is beneficial to all, and I am willing to provide compensation for lands lost.

If you're forgetting, I can now invade you. And I am a friend of Spain and Switzerland. Those are pretty damn good reasons, if you ask me.

And don't try to pull that stupid "Well I didn't so nyaaaa" and change the subject to something like how you should get all your old territory back. The aggressor, unless they win, should never be able to dictate terms.

And I also realize that I was an aggressor too. I know where you're coming from, I'd like all my old hexes back too, and then some. But that doesn't mean I get to be a dushe about it.


You cannot expect a new player to be given the pathetic slice of territory that is the Crimea, and think that he will enjoy it.


I've already said, I'm willing to give up the Crimean (except the 4 I have to protect them).


Pros:

A powerful, rich protector.

2 sponsored ways to expand

Kick-ass units

Cons:

France won't like it... oh wait that's a pro. :tongue:

Some may see it as me trying to get an extra 6 moves. Well no, this is about getting a new player into the game without upsetting the balance of power. If he gets to be the Orthodox Georgians then either me or Russia would eventually invade him. Plus that's EXTREMELY FAR AWAY FROM EVERYTHING. And unless someone else wants to offer up THEIR land, like Ireland or Bohemia, this is the only easy way, unless you'd rather go conquer 9 hexes and then give them to someone else straight away, with no compromise.


Then that leaves one obvious choice.

Is it Georgia?


What are they sick and tired of? Is it the process of negotiating, where I have compromised oh so many times? If so, they should quit the game now, because that's how diplomacy works. It's long, it's gruelling, and it's hard. This isn't a Total War Game where you just say "I'll have this province and this one in return for some map information, K?" or where it is plausible or advisable to conquer everyone on the map.

We already established that when I invaded Austria. This is a game where the players know a bad deal when they see it.

Examples: every map you have posted

[Subotan]

I resent that...... It is more complicated then "I support whoever is weaker" :sweatdrop:

I am not going to get a reputation for backstabbing everyone I ally with simply because they start winning :shrug: Just because I did it this one time does not mean I plan on making a habit out of it.

Likewise, I do not want a reputation for jingoism.



I am going to stick with France. That is my word on the matter.

:beam:



However, I do agree with the peace treaty spain has brought forth. I REALLY want a peace treaty to work out. I am not here for some long boring war that will ruin both sides of the conflict. France your idea of Compromise seems flawed to me. Mostly because you have given up absolutely nothing.

I have compromised several times on the proposals, and remember that I have claims to Italy which I inherited from Savoy, due to it being the only Italian state at that point. Savoy had just as much a right to that territory as Saxony did to Germany, and when I inherited Savoy, I inherited those claims. With these proposals, I am signing those claims away, and I said I was prepared to put my wallet where my mouth is, if Spain wants compensation.



If you really want to see this Italian kingdom work then give up Savoy to the Swiss and make Milan and Venice into the buffer kingdom. :shrug: I am not saying that is what you should do, but it would prove to us you are committed to this buffer kingdom, as well as allowing the Spanish to keep their Sphere of influence in Italy.

I am committed to it, and I'm prepared to sacrifice gold for it, but a certain phrase comes to mind when I read that proposal. It is "Umbria has no room to expand". It being that small does not provide an adequate barrier between me and Spain, and Switzerland was not contesting Savoy.


...... Being Honest I have no idea. :shrug: I see no reason in a Italian kingdom to separate Spain and the Swiss. :juggle2:
I want to seperate me and the Spanish, in Italy. Separating them from the Swiss is just an accident of geography, unless you were to wiggle the borders a lot so that they connected. And as I said before, I neither have any designs on the Swiss, and the Spanish on my Southern border is more than enough of a deterrent.


I have allready stated that I am not giving up my italian lands.
I'm not proposing that. No-one loses any territory they didn't already own.


I just want this all to go away so something can happen not invovling france. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
What CDF said. Restarting the Ottoman War would be fun. Besides, after this is over, I promise to stay a bit quieter from now on.

Promise



you are all so illogical, especially france. gah, the options here are pretty obvious
That's not very productive. You could at least explain why.


If you're forgetting, I can now invade you. And I am a friend of Spain and Switzerland. Those are pretty damn good reasons, if you ask me.
:Rolleyes:



And don't try to pull that stupid "Well I didn't so nyaaaa" and change the subject to something like how you should get all your old territory back. The aggressor, unless they win, should never be able to dictate terms.
It seems you are not aware that I explained repeatedly that it is not as clear cut as it might seem. I am now besieging Madrid.



And I also realize that I was an aggressor too. I know where you're coming from, I'd like all my old hexes back too, and then some. But that doesn't mean I get to be a dushe about it.
Two differences though
- You lost to the Austrians
- I'm not annexing any new territory


I've already said, I'm willing to give up the Crimean (except the 4 I have to protect them)
If I was CDF's friend, I wouldn't take that. Too boring (No offence btw)



Some may see it as me trying to get an extra 6 moves. Well no, this is about getting a new player into the game without upsetting the balance of power. If he gets to be the Orthodox Georgians then either me or Russia would eventually invade him. Plus that's EXTREMELY FAR AWAY FROM EVERYTHING. And unless someone else wants to offer up THEIR land, like Ireland or Bohemia, this is the only easy way, unless you'd rather go conquer 9 hexes and then give them to someone else straight away, with no compromise.
I understand totally what you're saying. But then, I can't speak for CDF's friend.

[Double A]

Ok. Let's restart it. But how about we both invade Transylvania?

Way easier war. Just bring lots of artillery.

[Double A]

Two differences though
- You lost to the Austrians
- I'm not annexing any new territory


I didn't lose, it's a ceasefire. If Csargo was still playing the game, we'd still be fighting.

And you kinda did annex something... called Burgundy. From the Swiss.

[Greyblades]

If you're forgetting, I can now invade you. And I am a friend of Spain and Switzerland. Those are pretty damn good reasons, if you ask me.
Oh thats good, I officially issue a call for aid to the noble ottoman empire if you are able to please send your troops to help us in this trying time.

[Subotan]

And you're the one asking for a peace treaty? :inquisitive:

[Double A]

Oh thats good, I officially issue a call for aid to the noble ottoman empire if you are able to please send your troops to help us in this trying time.

Starting next turn (whenever that may be :laugh4:)


And you're the one asking for a peace treaty? :inquisitive:

Aid is different from peace. And GB still has to deal with Portugal (I'm still curious about why miotas declared war)

[Greyblades]

Yes and your the one who keeps trying to change it. Please just agree to my terms if you dont want to be trounced by a "Heritic".

[Beskar]

He was actually offering you a Peace treaty, not asking for one, since you were basically defeated.

[Double A]

Taking your enemy's capital = defeat?

:confused:

[Centurion1]

Sigh, Heathen I wouldn't recommend you invade France as well.

[Double A]

Duly noted.

[Greyblades]

Oh the joys of diplomacy.

[Beskar]

Taking your enemy's capital = defeat?

:confused:

Yes.

Hence the importance of the Visigoths capturing Rome, The Greeks against the city of Troy (Trojan War), why the Russians did everything to defend Moscow (1812) against Napoleon, Germany controlling Paris, the Allied forces controlling Berlin.

The capital is the heart and the brains of the nation, once the capital is taken, it is a massive morale and technical defeat.

In a war, it is far better to lose a bunch of prime-real estate then it is to lose the capital.

France losing Paris to Spain is a humilating defeat of epic proportions, both at home, military (no more special units) and diplomatically. Even if France pushes Spain back to the borders, the war is won't ever be a victory for France.

[Double A]

No, I said "taking" not "losing."

Implying that Spain somehow lost because it took Paris.

[Subotan]

It's not like "Lose Capital - GAME OVER" There are plenty of examples where the capital was lost, but resistance continued, resulting in an eventual victory. E.g., China in WWII, Russia in 1812, America in 1812, Korean War (Multiple times) etc. It depends on the ability to retake it, which I have.

[Double A]

Only two of those examples apply to this time period. It carries more weight during this time than it does in modern-days.

[Subotan]

Only two of those examples apply to this time period. It carries more weight during this time than it does in modern-days.

Ok.

Vienna - Napoleonic Wars
Berlin - Seven Years War
Prague (Protestant Side) - 30 Years War (!)

Notice how I'm not denying your statement completely. It usually does signify total defeat, because all resources have been put into defending it. If there are resources which are able to retake it however, then it does not.

[Beskar]

No, I said "taking" not "losing."

Implying that Spain somehow lost because it took Paris.

No, in that example, Spain won.


It's not like "Lose Capital - GAME OVER" There are plenty of examples where the capital was lost, but resistance continued, resulting in an eventual victory. E.g., China in WWII

Well, that is not the case. China was seen as a wet nelly who had America save them. In WW2, France was seen as the cheese-eating surrender monkeys while the allies had to bail them out as well. Russia didn't lose 1812 so a bad example

Also, being honest, Spain could just threaten to demolish Paris. It would cost you $15,000 and 1 turn to rebuild it. It costs Spain no turns and no moeny to demolish it.

[Double A]

Those are better, point ceded.

15,000's a lot of money... over in Europe.

[Greyblades]

Especially seeing as when I took France's capital I captured thier royal treasury. :grin:

[Beskar]

Especially seeing as when I took France's capital I captured thier royal treasury. :grin:

So France has no money either?

So a bankrupt, capitaliless nation with no army is trying to dictate terms when it lost a war of Aggression and has the possibly of their capital being destroyed which would take $15,000 and one turn to rebuild?

I have to be honest, take Greyblades offer before he withdraws it.

[Greyblades]

Well all I can say for certain is I have thier treasury buildings, I havent gotten my economy report yet so I might not have gotten it all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Especially seeing as when I took France's capital I captured thier royal treasury. :grin:

No freakin way, dude!

:laugh4:

My God the french got their butts handed to them. Why do they even have a seat at the table?

I will only speak to England and Saxony from now on. They have power I respect and actually make sense.

[Centurion1]

he has no money...... oh god

[Double A]

No freakin way, dude!

:laugh4:

My God the french got their butts handed to them. Why do they even have a seat at the table?

I will only speak to England and Saxony from now on. They have power I respect and actually make sense.

France? You mean that annoying guy who keeps popping up with lots of quotes every now and again?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Anywho. All I really needed to know is where France stood about reparations. There's no way I could end the war without that anyway. It's their fault I needed to raise an army which I didn't even have before they attacked me. As such the only way I could let them off the hook is if they fully covered my war expenses, which they can't afford by a long shot. And since they also can't pay with territory, they are bankrupt. By the rules of Monopoly, Paris Boulevard is now mortgaged and given to Spain, and I get Marseilles Avenue and Lyons Road.

[White_eyes:D]

Anywho. All I really needed to know is where France stood about reparations. There's no way I could end the war without that anyway. It's their fault I needed to raise an army which I didn't even have before they attacked me. As such the only way I could let them off the hook is if they fully covered my war expenses, which they can't afford by a long shot. And since they also can't pay with territory, they are bankrupt. By the rules of Monopoly, Paris Boulevard is now mortgaged and given to Spain, and I get Marseilles Avenue and Lyons Road.

I admit....the last part made me laugh like crazy:laugh4:

*I am not playing though, just a comment*

[miotas]

We all need to declare war on white eyes and make him pay dearly for his transgressions.

[White_eyes:D]

.....Beefy will just steam roll you....:stare:

[Beskar]

Anywho. All I really needed to know is where France stood about reparations. There's no way I could end the war without that anyway. It's their fault I needed to raise an army which I didn't even have before they attacked me. As such the only way I could let them off the hook is if they fully covered my war expenses, which they can't afford by a long shot. And since they also can't pay with territory, they are bankrupt. By the rules of Monopoly, Paris Boulevard is now mortgaged and given to Spain, and I get Marseilles Avenue and Lyons Road.

This is the part where France's friends bail him out by paying on his behalf, whoever they are.

[Double A]

The way this is going, I wouldn't be surprised if CDF just let him hang here to wallow in the mess he started.

[miotas]

We haven't actually heard from him yet, so we don't know if he's broke or not, then again he probably doesn't yet either.

[Subotan]

I didn't get a treasury report last turn, so I have no idea if what he's saying is true.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I declare world peace if Ibn-Khaldun doesn't come back. :laugh4:

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I am sticking with the French. :shrug: Especially if this talk by the Spanish and Swiss is a rescinding of their former peace offer.

But here is my ultimatum. If France does not accept the Swiss and Spanish's next reasonable offer I am out. :sweatdrop: France just stop talking and accept that you are not in a quick win position here. You have very little leverage.


Of course if the Spainish and Swiss are done talking peace I will just have to move to take back the Frenches capitol :shrug: and do what I said I would.

[Greyblades]

The peace offer isnt recinded as far as I am concerned, we were just reminding everyone how screwed france will be if he doesnt see reason.

[Askthepizzaguy]

We offered a reasonable peace, it was denied, and an ABSURD counter offer was made. Even England and Saxony recognize this. So, in the interest of reason, England, Saxony, or any other party could offer the Swiss a compensation package that they think is reasonable, and I will tell you if it is enough for the Swiss to end the war with dignity. Just a couple of ground rules:




1. It is not the Swiss or our allies who are seeking this conflict, it was brought upon us with no warning and over absolutely, and almost universally agreed to be, "male cow droppings" reasoning. It was never for the French to dictate to the Swiss that we couldn't have unclaimed land in northern Italy. That's none of their concern, because they had a whole different COUNTRY between them and Italy. It wasn't even in their sphere of influence. And, asking the Swiss to stay in a tiny, landlocked bit of land when there's unclaimed territory nearby is insanity beyond all understanding. First come, first served. If you don't recognize or respect that this is France's war of choice, then don't bother talking to me. Because there is no other legitimate viewpoint. If you want to be irrational, keep it to yourself.

2. Secondly, we are not the ones seeking an end to this conflict by means other than a contest of our armies on the field. You want to bloody the Swiss in the nose, then prepare to be hit back. Fair is fair. If you want a PEACE now, maybe you shouldn't have started the conflict, and maybe you should be offering us more than what the French have, which is NOTHING. And by the way, given the dramatic reversal of this war, we deserve a HECK of a lot more than nothing in the peace agreement, it's called reparations.

3. If we don't get bucketload of cash to pay for this war we didn't ask for, you CANNOT expect us to settle for less than a chunk of France. Sorry. I have to pay for this somehow, and I have outstanding loans from my allies to repay. I don't intend to be a deadbeat. Swiss banks WILL be solvent after this war is over, one way or the other. Either we get the cash, or the territory, or we don't exist as a nation anymore.

4. No cash, no chunk of France? Then what is our incentive to stop fighting to eradicate the hostile clown next door? Nothing. Not even if every nation on Earth declared war on us. We don't roll over and surrender when we aren't in the wrong, and we have the upper hand. You misjudge the pride of Switzerland if you think we would.


Those are the ground rules. I will not hear any peace proposal that doesn't understand these 4 basic, basic, basic concepts which elude the French jester.

[Subotan]

We offered a reasonable peace, it was denied, and an ABSURD counter offer was made. Even England and Saxony recognize this. So, in the interest of reason, England, Saxony, or any other party could offer the Swiss a compensation package that they think is reasonable, and I will tell you if it is enough for the Swiss to end the war with dignity. Just a couple of ground rules:
You're exaggerating, again. Absurd would be something like partitioning Switzerland along linguistic lines or something. If you want absurd terms, I can present them.



1. It is not the Swiss or our allies who are seeking this conflict, it was brought upon us with no warning and over absolutely, and almost universally agreed to be, "male cow droppings" reasoning. It was never for the French to dictate to the Swiss that we couldn't have unclaimed land in northern Italy. That's none of their concern, because they had a whole different COUNTRY between them and Italy. It wasn't even in their sphere of influence. And, asking the Swiss to stay in a tiny, landlocked bit of land when there's unclaimed territory nearby is insanity beyond all understanding. First come, first served. If you don't recognize or respect that this is France's war of choice, then don't bother talking to me. Because there is no other legitimate viewpoint. If you want to be irrational, keep it to yourself.

Although this is irrelevant to the treaty we are discussing, I feel a need to put to rest this stupid argument of "Sir! Sir! France hit me!" once and for all.

I advised you against expanding in Italy. I said, quite clearly in a PM, that I couldn't support you if you expanded in Italy. However, Southern Germany was up for grabs, and I encouraged you to do so. And yet you chose to expand into Italy, along with taken Franche-Comte! I then gave you another choice; I'll purchase those lands, or expect war. And you chose war. Every time I offered you a choice, you chose the path to war. This war is as much your responsibility as mine. You are not some helpless damsel-in-distress of a country, but a state which repeatedly ignored and taunted it's neighbour. Wars have been started for less, and you bear at least some of the blame.

And as it appears you did not read between the lines, I'll do it now for you. I reserved Italy for Savoy because they had exactly the same thing you had; They had a right to expand at the beginning of the game, just as much as you, the Dutch, the English, the Russians, and the Poles had. Hell, the Swedes didn't even have that, and you were denying it to the Savoyards. I know that's not particularly RPish, but by RPing for the rest of the game, by inheriting Savoy, and therefore their CLAIMS, I wanted to give it a plausible flavour.


2. Secondly, we are not the ones seeking an end to this conflict by means other than a contest of our armies on the field. You want to bloody the Swiss in the nose, then prepare to be hit back. Fair is fair. If you want a PEACE now, maybe you shouldn't have started the conflict, and maybe you should be offering us more than what the French have, which is NOTHING. And by the way, given the dramatic reversal of this war, we deserve a HECK of a lot more than nothing in the peace agreement, it's called reparations.
Pathetic. Nothing more than Playground Diplomacy.


3. If we don't get bucketload of cash to pay for this war we didn't ask for, you CANNOT expect us to settle for less than a chunk of France. Sorry. I have to pay for this somehow, and I have outstanding loans from my allies to repay. I don't intend to be a deadbeat. Swiss banks WILL be solvent after this war is over, one way or the other. Either we get the cash, or the territory, or we don't exist as a nation anymore.
Oooh, cry me a Lake Geneva. My costs aren't going to be recuperated by anyone, so don't expect that yours will if we come out with a non-Umbrian Peace.



4. No cash, no chunk of France? Then what is our incentive to stop fighting to eradicate the hostile clown next door? Nothing. Not even if every nation on Earth declared war on us. We don't roll over and surrender when we aren't in the wrong, and we have the upper hand. You misjudge the pride of Switzerland if you think we would.
I'm only hostile towards nations that give me a reason to be, like ones who are constantly badgering me with such annoying soundbites as "You want to bloody the Swiss in the nose, then prepare to be hit back.". I get on perfectly well with the Netherlands, England and Saxony. If I was the jingoistic imbecile you make me out to be, then I would have declared war on Saxony over the Palatinate. In fact, bordering you for the rest of the game looks set to be a real headache, because you seem to think you have some Mod-given right to conquer the rest of the map. Woe betide anyone who thinks that their land should not belong to Switzerland.

Another thread which I have detected in Switzerland's speech is the notion that I for some reason wanted to totally obliterate Switzerland, and scour it from the Earth when I started this war. That isn't true. As I said before, I was happy with just the territory I was contesting, and nothing more. I was quite happy with having a Switzerland on my borders that included a lot of Southern Germany, territory which Switzerland had expanded into.

[Splitpersonality]

The Poles would like to declare their support of the French, becuase they were kind enough to use our brilliant nation in their analogy.

:clown:

[Greyblades]

You're exaggerating, again. Absurd would be something like partitioning Switzerland along linguistic lines or something. If you want absurd terms, I can present them.


Although this is irrelevant to the treaty we are discussing, I feel a need to put to rest this stupid argument of "Sir! Sir! France hit me!" once and for all.

I advised you against expanding in Italy. I said, quite clearly in a PM, that I couldn't support you if you expanded in Italy. However, Southern Germany was up for grabs, and I encouraged you to do so. And yet you chose to expand into Italy, along with taken Franche-Comte! I then gave you another choice; I'll purchase those lands, or expect war. And you chose war. Every time I offered you a choice, you chose the path to war. This war is as much your responsibility as mine. You are not some helpless damsel-in-distress of a country, but a state which repeatedly ignored and taunted it's neighbour. Wars have been started for less, and you bear at least some of the blame.

And as it appears you did not read between the lines, I'll do it now for you. I reserved Italy for Savoy because they had exactly the same thing you had; They had a right to expand at the beginning of the game, just as much as you, the Dutch, the English, the Russians, and the Poles had. Hell, the Swedes didn't even have that, and you were denying it to the Savoyards. I know that's not particularly RPish, but by RPing for the rest of the game, by inheriting Savoy, and therefore their CLAIMS, I wanted to give it a plausible flavour.


Pathetic. Nothing more than Playground Diplomacy.


Oooh, cry me a Lake Geneva. My costs aren't going to be recuperated by anyone, so don't expect that yours will if we come out with a non-Umbrian Peace.


I'm only hostile towards nations that give me a reason to be, like ones who are constantly badgering me with such annoying soundbites as "You want to bloody the Swiss in the nose, then prepare to be hit back.". I get on perfectly well with the Netherlands, England and Saxony. If I was the jingoistic imbecile you make me out to be, then I would have declared war on Saxony over the Palatinate. In fact, bordering you for the rest of the game looks set to be a real headache, because you seem to think you have some Mod-given right to conquer the rest of the map. Woe betide anyone who thinks that their land should not belong to Switzerland.

Another thread which I have detected in Switzerland's speech is the notion that I for some reason wanted to totally obliterate Switzerland, and scour it from the Earth when I started this war. That isn't true. As I said before, I was happy with just the territory I was contesting, and nothing more. I was quite happy with having a Switzerland on my borders that included a lot of Southern Germany, territory which Switzerland had expanded into.

TL,BS;DR
Do you accept the terms or not?

[Centurion1]

write up the terms please im losing track of all these different deals.

[Greyblades]

Look I'll give back the lands I took, switzerland'll promise not to contend france's rule of those two hexes that started this whole mess and we go back to attacking eachother with words instead of soldiers. Ok?

This is pretty much it.

[Centurion1]

what about savoy and do you want any reaparations i know swiss do

[Greyblades]

My reparation is sole claim to central italy. As for savoy I dont realy give a toss.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

This is pretty much it.


Accept the deal France. Switzerland I will pay you a reparation of 20,000 As well as an extra 5000 if you stop talking to France :laugh4: :juggle2:


There no everyone just stop talking and accept the offer. France If you don't take this I am backing out.

[Centurion1]

this deal is excellent. i fully support this and will withdraw my support of france if they do not accept.

[Double A]

If France does not accept, they'll wish they had.

[Askthepizzaguy]

My response to France-


You're exaggerating, again. Absurd would be something like partitioning Switzerland along linguistic lines or something. If you want absurd terms, I can present them.

Would you prefer the term "ridiculous"? One of your plans showed Switzerland with 4 hexes, or 8 hexes or something equally daft. Did you expect anyone to look at that plan and do anything but laugh? My proposed plan, while punitive toward France, had almost everyone who looked at it agreeing that it was fair, except France of course. Now, if nations around the world and especially those primarily involved in the conflict see you ceding both territory and cash as being a fair outcome, how do you think they would react to seeing Switzerland reduced to nothing more than an afterthought, Spain reduced in size, Italy lost inexplicably by Spain, and France keeping all of their original territory? Preposterous, and everyone but you sees that as well.

So yes, your plan is in the realm of absurdity, and not just by a toe. It is well past waist-deep in absurdity.


Although this is irrelevant to the treaty we are discussing, I feel a need to put to rest this stupid argument of "Sir! Sir! France hit me!" once and for all.

You may argue the facts at your leisure, and make little headway.


I advised you against expanding in Italy.

Switzerland is barely interested in where France thinks we should expand, as it is absolutely none of your business if it doesn't involve attacking you or your allies.


I said, quite clearly in a PM, that I couldn't support you if you expanded in Italy. However, Southern Germany was up for grabs, and I encouraged you to do so. And yet you chose to expand into Italy, along with taken Franche-Comte! I then gave you another choice; I'll purchase those lands, or expect war. And you chose war. Every time I offered you a choice, you chose the path to war. This war is as much your responsibility as mine. You are not some helpless damsel-in-distress of a country, but a state which repeatedly ignored and taunted it's neighbour. Wars have been started for less, and you bear at least some of the blame.

I'll accept that communication between our nations was poor. However, you gave us little reason to treat your requests as anything besides petulant demands by a hostile power.


And as it appears you did not read between the lines, I'll do it now for you. I reserved Italy for Savoy because they had exactly the same thing you had; They had a right to expand at the beginning of the game, just as much as you, the Dutch, the English, the Russians, and the Poles had. Hell, the Swedes didn't even have that, and you were denying it to the Savoyards. I know that's not particularly RPish, but by RPing for the rest of the game, by inheriting Savoy, and therefore their CLAIMS, I wanted to give it a plausible flavour.

You can do as you please, but I don't recognize France's claims to Italy and neither does anyone else, so far as I can tell.


Pathetic. Nothing more than Playground Diplomacy.

If you say so. :laugh4:


Oooh, cry me a Lake Geneva. My costs aren't going to be recuperated by anyone, so don't expect that yours will if we come out with a non-Umbrian Peace.

I don't expect that anyone would wish to recuperate the costs of your elective war. No one forced you to threaten Switzerland or invade it, whatever your reasoning. I'm not asking anyone else to cover the costs of my defense either; but if you wish peace, that's the price. Reparations is the cost of losing a war you start, and has been a rather common theme in peace treaties throughout history.

We're happy to continue fighting, that's free. But if you want peace now, that will cost you money or land. Those are our terms. You don't like those terms, and so there will be a continuation of the war.


I'm only hostile towards nations that give me a reason to be, like ones who are constantly badgering me with such annoying soundbites as "You want to bloody the Swiss in the nose, then prepare to be hit back."

I see no real reason to be friendly toward France at the moment, given the state of war between our people and the silly nature of recent peace proposals. You can expect nothing but (IC) threats, taunts, insults, and scoffs. I've also taken to not really addressing the King of France directly because it seems like there's no one home, or if there is, the hope of reaching any kind of understanding has long since passed. Most of my remarks are addressed toward your allies, who I still believe can see reason.

This won't change until I actually hear a remotely acceptable proposal for peace from France, or my nation has been wiped from the earth.


I get on perfectly well with the Netherlands, England and Saxony. If I was the jingoistic imbecile you make me out to be, then I would have declared war on Saxony over the Palatinate.
All I am really concerned with is your standing toward Switzerland. Every nation on earth could consider you their best friend, or worst enemy, and all that would matter is where we stand, which currently is sitting about 3 atoms north of forced annihilation of one for the other to exist.


In fact, bordering you for the rest of the game looks set to be a real headache, because you seem to think you have some Mod-given right to conquer the rest of the map. Woe betide anyone who thinks that their land should not belong to Switzerland.

That would be a reasonable assessment of a nation that has been historically and recently hostile or threatening to all its neighbors and has actually declared war on another, which describes France, not Switzerland. All we ever wanted was a reasonably-sized chunk of land with a port, and friendly neighbors. So I do not view the above quote as a legitimate criticism.


Another thread which I have detected in Switzerland's speech is the notion that I for some reason wanted to totally obliterate Switzerland, and scour it from the Earth when I started this war.

Noted. But if I may, telling someone you only want to saw off their arm, not kill them, doesn't affect the reaction much. It will still result in the other person wanting to annihilate you in most cases.


That isn't true. As I said before, I was happy with just the territory I was contesting, and nothing more. I was quite happy with having a Switzerland on my borders that included a lot of Southern Germany, territory which Switzerland had expanded into.

Territory which the Netherlands and Saxony would have wanted, provoking friction between myself and the Dutch or the Germans, tensions I didn't need. Given the choice between upsetting two nations instead of just France, I chose the latter. That's neither here nor there; it isn't for France to decide the borders of Switzerland.

In my view, any land that isn't already owned by a major power with a seat at this council, belongs to the first nation that claims it with their armies. After that, they may trade or sell that land. They may also agree to partition the land before they even claim it, as long as both parties agree. I did not agree with France even having a seat at the table when deciding who owns northern Italy, as it isn't your concern.

Switzerland's official position on these matters is that Northern Italy is not French land, never was French land, and was not in France's immediate sphere of influence. Switzerland does not tell Russia where to expand and where not to expand, likewise France does not tell Switzerland what they can do with Italy. The Savoy could have engaged in diplomacy with the Swiss over northern Italy, and we may have sold it to them directly without France brokering any deal. They declined to comment or even respond. As such, it seemed they didn't even care about the Swiss owning parts of Italy.

At the time, Spain also was attempting to claim Italy, and for balance of power reasons, Switzerland wanted to make sure that land was claimed by someone other than Spain. At this point we couldn't care less what territory Spain owns, because Spain is a mighty and honorable nation worthy of owning half of Europe if they wished, and if they somehow obtained that land legitimately. The bond that the Swiss has formed with Spain is unbreakable, and for Spain to own any territory, is as if the Swiss themselves own that land.

When Savoy voluntarily became part of the French empire, that was a stroke of good fortune for the French. Wishing to own parts of Italy as well is ambitious, even understandable, but the Swiss were already there. We are not obligated to sell our land to anyone, and if we don't sell the land or gift it away, then you'd have to take it through military force as you elected to do, which is not a legitimate action recognized by this assembly of nations. No one recognizes the legitimacy of the French war against Switzerland or their claims over Italy. It was your elective option to go to war over Italy, and even now you would keep it out of the hands of Spain or Switzerland, which is a lost cause France would be "advised" to give up on, or prove themselves worthy of owning Italy by defeating Switzerland, as well as all other allied nations, on the field of battle.

Until such time as that happens, France will never have a stake in Italy, never have any diplomatic influence over Italy, and France will never see a separate Umbrian kingdom controlling Italy. I would go as far as to say there won't be a scrap of French bread or a snail to be eaten in Italy for the next thousand years, if the Swiss have any say in the matter. In short, perhaps it is time to let go of that notion that France has a say as to what happens in Italy, but you may continue to think what you wish, state what you wish, and dream what you wish.

Does Switzerland regret this war? Yes, but we didn't seek it.
Does Switzerland wish peace? Yes, but not a humiliating one when we haven't been beaten.
Does Switzerland want normalized relations with France? Perhaps, one day, but until France understands that the Swiss are not a dog to be ordered around, and not a vassal state of France, and that the French have no legitimate claim over Italy, and until the allies of Switzerland are rewarded for supporting us in this difficult time, we will not accept a peace treaty.

Unless something changes, the Swiss diplomat has nothing to discuss with France, and we will speak only to those with real diplomatic influence, power, and rationale, such as England.


Next comes my response to England.

[Greyblades]

Oh boy here we go...

[Subotan]

Accept the deal France. Switzerland I will pay you a reparation of 20,000 As well as an extra 5000 if you stop talking to France :laugh4: :juggle2:

There no everyone just stop talking and accept the offer. France If you don't take this I am backing out.
If Switzerland is getting some, then I want some too. Not actual reparations, but the clearing of my debts to you would make that deal acceptable. Alternatively, I could keep pressing for the creation of Umbria for another two pages :beam:

I still think that my plan would work out better in the long run, but it appears that Europe won't accept that. And if we are to sign this treaty, we totally need a name for it, preferably in a city on neutral ground, than isn't Turkey. Possibly a Polish City?
It appears the map of Europe now looks like, should England agree to my counter offer
https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll286/Phalanxia/30YW_kingdoms_turn7-4.jpg
Any objections?


TL,BS;DR
Eh, most of it wasn't directed at you anyway.


what about savoy
It'll be a cold day in Hell before I surrender Savoy to the cowardly Swiss, who just sat back and shivered whilst I marched into their lands.
Btw, why do you think my terms are unjust, regarding Umbria (Presumably because it would take land which Spain had captured away from them), yet you seem unusually eager for me to surrender Savoy to the Swiss? I'm not pressing my plan any more (Even though it's still the best option...), I'm just curious; especially seeing as this is coming from the guy who nearly declared war on me when I occupied the Rhineland for the Palatinate, and accused me of threatening him when I wondered what happened to the soldiers he sold in that deal.



and i want that hex in s. germany
No.


If France does not accept, they'll wish they had.
Why? What are you going to do? Force feed me Turkish Delight?

Really though, I had a lot of fun negotiating. Although I expected you all to have somewhat more stamina when it comes to diplomacy.

[Greyblades]

Give switzerland the hex you have in Milan and I'll agree to this.

[Subotan]

Gah, I didn't see that. My bad, I'll edit it right away

That looks really bad, as if I was trying to cheat you or something. Sorry! :sweatdrop:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Accept the deal France. Switzerland I will pay you a reparation of 20,000 As well as an extra 5000 if you stop talking to France :laugh4: :juggle2:


There no everyone just stop talking and accept the offer. France If you don't take this I am backing out.

You do remember that the cost of this war well exceeds 40,000 gold, just in recruitment alone, not even talking about upkeep. This is why I am not taking any flak from France, because unless several nations have been giving them LARGE amounts of currency, their army pales in comparison to mine. The history of this war has also been one crushing French defeat after another. I also have allies which comprise basically half of Europe, covering all my flanks, all massive nations with powerful armies and excellent relations with the Swiss, pledged to support and defend us. I respect England and Saxony for taking up the French cause, but that does not mean I am flinching in my resolve in the slightest.

It is also why I am not interested in a humiliating peace arrangement. I am being EXTREMELY lenient and reasonable by offering (lord knows why) to cut my asking price down to simply 20,000 gold plus some of France as a punitive measure. Actually I know why... it is because I would like to have excellent relations with all of my neighbors, all of Europe. I actually do care what England and Saxony thinks about the situation. Even Portugal or Sweden... you name it.

However, I'll only eat half the costs of this war. HALF. The other half belongs to France. That is purely to settle our bank balance and repay war debt. That has nothing to do with ensuring Swiss security and punishing France for their belligerence.

If France's allies wish to pay their debts for them, that I have no qualms about. But France will not escape this conflict without a punitive measure for declaring war on us over Italy of all things, especially when they have no chance of defeating us. The punitive measure is territory. They will not have Savoy, and will renounce all of Savoy's claims, as it was these imagined claims which started this conflict. I originally asked for a third of France, in exchange for lowering my asking price from just recruitment costs alone, to half of my recruitment costs.

If it please the nations of Europe, I'll cut it in half again. 10,000 gold and the French territories I've asked for, to reduce the size of their nation and neutralize them as a threat to Switzerland, and to punish them for this destructive and costly war. This is as far as I will go. This is also less than I asked for before, and England, Saxony, and all other nations with an opinion thought my PREVIOUS peace agreement was reasonable. As such, this offer should be much more than reasonable.

France has already rejected these measures as a viable peace agreement. I have rejected their offer of a white peace, and I've also rejected any notion of Italy becoming a power independent of Spain.

I will continue to accept diplomatic offers from England, Saxony, or any other nation with an interest in peace. But I won't listen to any half-measures from France, and everything France has offered thusfar has been absolutely astonishingly unacceptable, even from their allies' perspective.

My door is open, but I'd prefer to receive further offers of peace in private, as I grow weary of this public discussion which serves no purpose except to exacerbate the drama and fray nerves and create more tensions, all of which stonewall the peace process. You have my offer, France/England, if you have a reasonable alternative offer I will hear it.



-The Swiss diplomat retires to his private chambers, as his opinion on the matter is settled, and will not reduce his offer below that which has been already stated.

[Greyblades]

Good. now remove the king of italy part from your sig NOW. :evilgrin: MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously though I'm glad this blasted thing can finaly be done with.

@ATPG: Just so you know I consider the debt you have to me null and void untill a time of your convenience. (I.E. you dont have to pay it but if you want to I wont object)

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've noted the new French offer is almost exactly the same as before, and it's not even close to acceptable.

I reject it entirely.



EDIT: I am serious about further conversing in private about this matter only, as I don't see the French budging anytime soon and I've no wish to drag this on forever in public.

[Subotan]

Like I said, Cry me Lake Geneva, Switzerland. My costs far exceed what I am received from other nations, and I'm only asking for a cancellation of debts. I'm not paying the Swiss/"Saxon" soldiers who killed French soldiers.


Good. now remove the king of italy part from your sig NOW. :evilgrin: MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Fine, I'll just put King-in-Waiting of Umbria :clown:


I've noted the new French offer is almost exactly the same as before
Are you blind? It's as clear as day that it is totally different.

[Double A]

Why? What are you going to do? Force feed me Turkish Delight?

Really though, I had a lot of fun negotiating. Although I expected you all to have somewhat more stamina when it comes to diplomacy.

If that is what you wish to call Grand Bombard ammunition, then yes.


Like I said, Cry me Lake Geneva, Switzerland. My costs far exceed what I am received from other nations, and I'm only asking for a cancellation of debts. I'm not paying the Swiss/"Saxon" soldiers who killed French soldiers.

You wouldn't HAVE any costs if you didn't start the war. The Swiss fought back and recruited thousands to fight you off, then teach you a lesson for messing with The Blitzmaster.


Are you blind? It's as clear as day that it is totally different.

Yeah, instead of giving up 23 hexes, they only have to give up 7, and Pizza only has to give up 1 instead of 8. And they actually get one! How generous!

[Subotan]

Quiet Turkey, your input is irrelevant. France and Spain want this treaty, and that is what matters.

[Double A]

As far as both The Ottoman Empire and Switzerland are concerned, your input is even more irrelevant.

And last time I checked, I support both Spain and the Swiss, as well as hold Corsica. I believe this has not changed in Ibn's absence.

[Double A]

[Serious mode]The last time Ibn was on was Dec 11 2009. If anyone was curious.[/Serious mode]

[Askthepizzaguy]

All right, I have received a serious and acceptable offer from the combined parties of England and the Netherlands, which is in the ballpark of reasonable from France's perspective as well.

It is simply that they have already rejected one aspect of that deal. It is up to England and/or the Dutch, or whoever is interested in peace, to persuade the French on that matter.

This is very, very close to what all parties have wanted all along. It requires a minor concession on France's part, and that is all.

[Centurion1]

we find it humorous that the french diplomats cordiality to us had ended now that he does not need our help anymore and he is now making pointed remarks that are so designed as to make the Saxon people appear as worthless mercenaries. We do not appreciate this.

furthermore we request the you give your hex in S. Germany to the Dutch, for nothing. This can be considered reparation to nations like England who suffered to aid you. Any progress for any nation of the Northern Alliance is a progress for all.

You have zero claim to the palatinate and demand your immeadiate withdrawal from our German Brethren lands.

(sound familiar)

[Beskar]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that hex. :beam:

[Greyblades]

Yeah I'm pretty happy with it, all that needs to be sorted out is Pizza's reparations.
Just so you know if it turns out that they cant come to an agreement and continue the war I'm going to be siding with the swiss, disgruntled though I may be.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Deal which the Swiss will be happy to agree on:

Peace with Spain.
Peace with Switzerland.
Savoy come under Swiss control.
Britain pays 25k to Switzerland.
Netherlands pays 15k to Switzerland.

That would give Switzerland some actual Land, France returns to original borders, Spain commented they were happy with it. All it needs doing is rubberstamping.

If the French are giving up Savoy I am sure as :daisy: not paying 25K. :juggle2: Sorry, but NO way.


Here is the Score. France, Give up Savoy to the Swiss. I will pay you 5000 to do it, as well as hand over every hex I have in France.

I pay another 5000 to the Swiss and that is it for me. :brood: I am suitably pissed by said offer, so it is my last.



[Serious mode]The last time Ibn was on was Dec 11 2009. If anyone was curious.[/Serious mode]

I really hope he is OK.... :sweatdrop: Not hearing from him at all seems like something bad happened.

[Double A]

If the war continues, wouldn't England, Saxony, and Portugal be obliged to cease all aid to France?

I think this is the most generous offer that Spain and the Swiss have offered so far, aside from the one for 10k that ATPG posted when he was obviously over-fatigued from Dark Falls.

[Double A]

I really hope he is OK.... :sweatdrop: Not hearing from him at all seems like something bad happened.

He's probably doing Christmasy things right now.

[Centurion1]

ill give 5000 to swiss for this deal. take some of the load of you cdf.


this is getting ridiculous the nations who were only in it to help YOU France are being weakened...........

[Double A]

Saw CDF's post about money, I think France should pay a very small tribute (2k a turn) for 5 turns to make up for that.

Wait, that is small right? For you guys anyway? (please tell me my wealth isn't making me too delirious...)

[Greyblades]

Well... we could allways make savoy a seperate state again. neither side will benefit from it, it will make a good buffer between them and it would let CDF's friend join in on the fun if he wished.

[Double A]

That could actually work out... then if CDF's friend doesn't like us (:bigcry:) it can go to Pizza and he can pay CDF some money possibly.

But I don't think that'll happen. Salvatore fans can be very persuasive (read: pestilent)

[Centurion1]

Saw CDF's post about money, I think France should pay a very small tribute (2k a turn) for 5 turns to make up for that.

Wait, that is small right? For you guys anyway? (please tell me my wealth isn't making me too delirious...)

i hate heathens so much.......

hey hey you wanna fight. oh wait i forgot my troops were a bajillion times better than you. dont worry youre predicted to reach my level of technology in ummmmmm well never but dont stop believing ok

yeah i really hope ibn is okay......

[Double A]

I was being serious, not condescending. I think I almost get too much money from taxes, etc.

Is 2k small over in Europe?

[Centurion1]

NO! well maybe for some people.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I was being serious, not condescending. I think I almost get too much money from taxes, etc.

Is 2k small over in Europe?

Yeah (for me at least.), But still, I don't see why France should have to pay any cash when the Swiss are getting ALL of Savoy (which undoubtedly has a bonus) as well as getting 15,000 :inquisitive:


He is not in THAT great of a position :shrug: France may lose his capitol, but if I want to throw my entire treasury into the war I could tip the balance.


And I would if this treaty does not work, just out of spite. :tongue:

[Greyblades]

2000 is pocket change to me.

[Double A]

Gotcha.

[Subotan]

we find it humorous that the french diplomats cordiality to us had ended now that he does not need our help anymore
I didn't say that. I'm still being polite to you, and I'm just asking a question.



You have zero claim to the palatinate and demand your immeadiate withdrawal from our German Brethren lands.
Sorry, this just made me Lol, because you think it's OK to give to the Dutch, but not for the French to have it :laugh4:


Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that hex. :beam:
Sure; wanna swap?



Just so you know if it turns out that they cant come to an agreement and continue the war I'm going to be siding with the swiss, disgruntled though I may be.
What if Switzerland is the one blocking that peace deal?



That would give Switzerland some actual Land,
Switzerland has already gained land. Venice and Milan ring any bells? :stare:
Btw @ Spain, there's no way you can justify me ceding Savoy, seeing as you were so opposed to ceding Central Italy to a new, neutral state.




Here is the Score. France, Give up Savoy to the Swiss. I will pay you 5000 to do it, as well as hand over every hex I have in France.

I pay another 5000 to the Swiss and that is it for me. :brood: I am suitably pissed by said offer, so it is my last.

That's not a fair deal. Switzerland does not have any justification whatsoever to owning Savoy. Why is Switzerland suddenly now dictating terms? This is exactly what I meant when I said "Woe betide anyone who think that their land should not belong to Switzerland".

I call Switzerland's bluff. Switzerland has no right to hold Europe to ransom like this, seeing as it is tiny, it's army is puny, it's economy non-existent. I have agreed to terms the rest of Europe considers fair.

[Greyblades]

Btw @ Spain, there's no way you can justify me ceding Savoy, seeing as you were so opposed to ceding Central Italy to a new, neutral state.
Well, would you rather switzerland have it or a neutral party?


What if Switzerland is the one blocking that peace deal?
I dont know. I guess I might sit my armies on your borders and block any army from getting through untill this is settled.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I didn't say that. I'm still being polite to you, and I'm just asking a question.


Sorry, this just made me Lol, because you think it's OK to give to the Dutch, but not for the French to have it :laugh4:


Sure; wanna swap?


What if Switzerland is the one blocking that peace deal?


Switzerland has already gained land. Venice and Milan ring any bells? :stare:
Btw @ Spain, there's no way you can justify me ceding Savoy, seeing as you were so opposed to ceding Central Italy to a new, neutral state.



That's not a fair deal. Switzerland does not have any justification whatsoever to owning Savoy. Why is Switzerland suddenly now dictating terms? This is exactly what I meant when I said "Woe betide anyone who think that their land should not belong to Switzerland".

I call Switzerland's bluff. Switzerland has no right to hold Europe to ransom like this, seeing as it is tiny, it's army is puny, it's economy non-existent. I have agreed to terms the rest of Europe considers fair.



I SWEAR TO GOD FRANCE TAKE THE DEAL. I am not kidding around any more. It is a perfectly acceptable treaty, and if you don't take it I am done. You get back EVERY hex in the triprovince of France, and all you lose is Savoy.


I have nothing against the Swiss. This is fair enough all things considering. Take the deal. :brood: I am done discussing this. You accept it, or I leave.


That or make is a separate kingdom. that is the only two options.

[Subotan]

I didn't see that post before I replied.
What is wrong with the treaty you and me agreed on? The one where everyone except greedy Switzerland are happy?
Ofc, Me + Northern Alliance and Spain could sign a seperate treaty.


If the war continues, wouldn't England, Saxony, and Portugal be obliged to cease all aid to France?

I'm not the one obstructing the peace deal. If we're going to use that logic, Spain and Turkey should cease aid to Switzerland.


He's probably doing Christmasy things right now.
Probably. He has a three year old son, so he's probably going nuts.

@CDF
I can't believe you're letting Switzerland threaten you like that. If Switzerland refuses to be logical, then I'll just beat it into him until he realises that Savoy is never going Swiss. I won't take an Inch of Swiss territory with the intent to keep it that I described on the map as belonging to Switzerland. That is, of course, only if Switzerland refuses to accept that increasing in size by 200% actually counts as "compensation".

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I didn't see that post before I replied.
What is wrong with the treaty you and me agreed on? The one where everyone except greedy Switzerland are happy?
Ofc, Me + Northern Alliance and Spain could sign a seperate treaty.


I'm not the one obstructing the peace deal. If we're going to use that logic, Spain and Turkey should cease aid to Switzerland.


Probably. He has a three year old son, so he's probably going nuts.

I just want the war over...... :bigcry:


You have a point. I was a bit emotional when I read the posts. I will stand by you for now..... :shame:

But I want this thing settled.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I just want the war over...... :bigcry:


You have a point. I was a bit emotional when I read the posts. I will stand by you for now..... :shame:

But I want this thing settled.

I took note of the change in your offer, England, and amended the amendment to my amended offer. :laugh4: Ok, so I combined the offers from Saxony and England into one, I sent the deal to you guys to look over.

The Dutch agreed to their part, the Swiss/ottomans/Spanish agreed to their part, I added in the English and Saxon parts, so the only issue remaining is the French. Let me know if you guys consider it to be fair. I reduced it by a further 10K from what I was about to propose.

[Subotan]

I just want the war over...... :bigcry:


I do as well! I was about to put pen to paper to sign that treaty with Spain when Switzerland burst into the room making insane demands. I have compromised again and again and again and again, and Switzerland still wants more. That is not diplomacy, that is an inferiority complex.

EDIT:

The Dutch agreed to their part, the Swiss/ottomans/Spanish agreed to their part, I added in the English and Saxon parts, so the only issue remaining is the French. Let me know if you guys consider it to be fair. I reduced it by a further 10K from what I was about to propose.
So everyone agrees to the original proposal, including me, and then you all let yourself be blackmailed by this little banking gnome? Ignore him, as he can't take my territory if he refuses to sign the original territory, and if you do agree to his deal, he'll be after your land next.

[Beskar]

Sure; wanna swap?


PM'd you about it before and sure, I will swap it with the one below. I even believe Saxony would be interested in buying that from you, if you want to sell it.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I do as well! I was about to put pen to paper to sign that treaty with Spain when Switzerland burst into the room making insane demands. I have compromised again and again and again and again, and Switzerland still wants more. That is not diplomacy, that is an inferiority complex.

France..... Please just take the treaty. All we are asking of you is Savoy. That is it. The Swiss won't settle for anything less. I am offering to hand over the last few pieces of France in the mix, something I assure you I would not normally do. :juggle2:

I am willing to forgive any debts you may have to me, and pay a further 10,000 to pay you for Savoy.


I am just tired of this whole thing..... Accept the deal.

[Subotan]

The Swiss won't settle for anything less.
The Swiss are only doing that because you're showing weakness in the thread. If you act as strong as your position actually is, unless they're stupid (Which I know they're not), then they'll back down.


I am offering to hand over the last few pieces of France in the mix, something I assure you I would not normally do. :juggle2:

And yet you're still going to pay them? My God, they must be brainwashing you all through your monitors or something.



I am willing to forgive any debts you may have to me, and pay a further 10,000 to pay you for Savoy.

I'm willing, if you press for the original deal, to pay for all the original debts.


I am just tired of this whole thing..... Accept the deal.

Or, we could all just tell Switzerland to STFU. There's no reason why anyone should have to bow to Switzerland's demands.

[Double A]

Btw @ Spain, there's no way you can justify me ceding Savoy, seeing as you were so opposed to ceding Central Italy to a new, neutral state.

Maybe that's because Savory is 5 hexes and Central Italy is 12? Or is it because Spain actually had to take Italy, whereas you got a total freebie, expending no manpower whatsoever?



Or, we could all just tell France to STFU. There's no reason why anyone should have to bow to Subotan's ridiculous demands.

:stare:

[Subotan]

Maybe that's because Savory is 5 hexes and Central Italy is 12?
The number of Hexes is irrelevant. It's the principle behind it.


Or is it because Spain actually had to take Italy, whereas you got a total freebie, expending no manpower whatsoever?
Spain just marched up into Central Italy. He didn't lose any lives whatsoever.



:stare:
I fail to see how my "demands" are ridiculous, seeing as how everyone had agreed to them before Switzerland came along. Switzerland is the problem now, and it should not be dictating to the rest of Europe that their agreements are void just because Switzerland says so.

[Double A]

And since when is getting a gift the same as taking land? What planet are you from?

Upkeep ring any bells?

Even from a third-party standpoint, the terms are amazingly generous! If you can't get that through your French skull then there's no reason for diplomacy!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Everyone has agreed to the deal except for France.


Greetings honored delegates from England, Saxony, and the Netherlands. Greetings honored allies from Spain, the Ottoman Empire, and Austria.

You all are directly or indirectly involved in this battle between myself and France, as well as the allied parties who were dragged into it.

England has offered 20,000 gold in order to pay for France's war costs inflicted upon Switzerland, plus an additional 5K in order for us to stop talking to them, for a total of 25K. This part was changed due to in-thread activity.

The Dutch are willing to loan/finance the rest of France's obligations to the Swiss.

This covers the war debt we've accumulated and allows us to exit this war with dignity, and with a solvent bank account. Thank you. Not only that, you've greatly impressed the Swiss with your generosity and your diplomatic skill. You will continue to have a friend in Switzerland, and I will be most displeased should you ever be mistreated by another nation. I consider your intervention on the behalf of France to be bold, brave, and honorable. All is forgiven regarding the sudden declaration of war as well, England. We simply ask for more explicit warning should our relations ever again deteriorate to that point. :bow:

Austria has given the Swiss gifts of gold to cover our costs, as have the Saxons, the English, the Spanish, and especially the Ottomans. Some of these were in the form of loans to be repaid, others as gifts. Our allies have offered us diplomatic as well as military aid. Some of our friends have now sided with the French for the sake of peace and balance of power, and this we understand and can forgive, especially when they have been so instrumental in helping to achieve this remarkable peace agreement, and talking on behalf of the interests of France, even when it has been difficult. For this, we thank you again.





The proposed agreement from the dutch was agreed to by the Swiss, and needs to be endorsed by the involved parties:


The Dutch
The English
The French
------
The Spanish
The Swiss
The Ottomans

And of course if Austria or Saxony wishes to add anything, they may. However Saxony has already expressed a desire to see the war end by any means, as long as it satisfies the English, and the Austrians have not requested any specific terms and haven't gotten that involved.



The PEACE TREATY as negotiated will involve the following agreements:

1. England is to allocate 15,000 gold to the Swiss to help pay for our reconstruction, and to facilitate the peace. The French will of course owe the English for this consideration, but I consider that to be a private matter between England and France. (Note, this part has been amended in accordance with what I saw in the thread... this would include Saxony's 5K offer for a total of 15k)

2. The Dutch are to loan or gift the French 15,000 gold to cover Swiss debts. They do this because they are interested in peace as well, and wish this pointless conflict to end. In order to ensure that nothing happens to threaten this peace, we ask that the funds go directly to the Swiss, not to France.

3. The Spanish and the Swiss forces will withdraw from Paris, and all french forts. Much of France will be restored to the French king's control.

4. Savoy will go to the Swiss.

5. France withdraws all claims to Italy and all attempts to create an Umbrian Kingdom.

6. Spain, the Ottomans, and the Swiss will not attack France, England, the Dutch, or Saxony for 5 turns, and vice versa. (I can assure you I won't anyway.... but some insisted on this provision so I agree. There's no implied threat here, it should have been obvious that it was implied we wouldn't go to war again for any reason unless we or our allies were attacked.)

7. Should France or Swiss attack the other, the allies of the aggressor nation will break their alliance with the aggressor nation because of the violation of this peace agreement, and wash their hands of whatever happens to that nation. Switzerland is asking for this, because we view the French as untrustworthy and a bully. Please withdraw support from France if they attack us again in violation of this agreement.

8. The French/Spanish border is restored to pre-war terms.

(Greyblades, I'd argue you deserve more than that. However, it is your call sir.)

9. The English/Dutch/French/Saxon borders are an internal matter for them to decide amongst themselves. Switzerland, Ottomans, and Spanish aren't concerned how you draw your borders. :bow:

10. Any party breaking this agreement for any reason will by their actions allow anyone to dissolve their alliance with the said party without any diplomatic penalty. A broken peace agreement undermines the foundation of alliances, which is mutual trust.


-----------------------------------------

The Leader of the Swiss Confederation agrees to abide by the conditions above, and pledges never to break this agreement. The Swiss leader also offers his personal wish for peace, and offers to never attack anyone here unless they attack Switzerland of their allies.


*OFFICIAL SEAL OF THE SWISS ROYAL FAMILY*

-Askthepizzaguy-

Signees-

Switzerland/Askthepizzaguy
Ottomans/Double A
Spain/Greyblades
England/Cultured Drizzt Fan
Saxony/Centurion1

[Greyblades]

Spain just marched up into Central Italy. He didn't lose any lives whatsoever.
Well I did have to buy a couple of mercs.

Eh anyway you guys sort this rot out among yourself and tell me when I have to sign the dotted line.

[Subotan]

I'm ready to sign a dotted line with you right now, setting both our borders at the map I posted.

[Double A]

So, you're saying the only deal you will sign is the one only you support, while you leave 5 countries, who have unanimously agreed on what is best for everyone, hanging back in the dust?

I'm curious, should I declare war on him now or wait till CDF and Centurion break off their alliance?

[Subotan]

Screw this, I can't believe you've been blackmailed by :daisy:ing Switzerland. I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and you give me that piece of :daisy:? I tried to play plausibly, I tried to play as 17th Century France, and I am dictated to by Switzerland? And even worse you BOW TO HIM? That isn't the 30 Years War, that's not even diplomacy. That's idiocy. Congratulations, you have defeated me. Feel good about yourselves for driving a player to the very ends of frustration, and stop him from writing his 5,000 Essay on the Korean Economy, and for having irritated me so much that it is no longer possible to play the game. Screw this, I'm outta here.

[johnhughthom]

The ghost of Charles Emmanuel I, former Duke of Savoy appears before Subotan:

Wooo! My beqeauth was to the Kingdom of France, if you give my gift away I will haunt all Kings of your line until your Kingdom whithers and dies. Woooo! Don't let my people fall under the evil pizza inspired influence of the Swiss. Woooo!

[Subotan]

That's the main reason why I wasn't going to surrender it; it was a gift from JH, meaning that comparisons between Central Italy and Normandy were meaningless. Ofc, since I was RPing, I couldn't say that, so I kept stressing the word inherited. However, nobody here seemed to have got that. Huh.

[Greyblades]

Well we are giving you the option to give it back to JH instead of pizza.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Gentlemen,

From a moderator's point of view, there has been almost a week and several hundred posts of discussion going nowhere. It appears to me that, until Ibn-Khaldun returns, you have reached the point where nothing is going to be resolved. If you honestly believe that you can come to an agreement in the game, carry on. Otherwise, please consider giving us a holiday favor and cutting down on the volume (especially the increasing nastiness).

Many thanks.

[Subotan]

Well we are giving you the option to give it back to JH instead of pizza.
If JH is willing to, sure. If we discover some long lost relative of Charles Emmanuel I.

Gentlemen,

From a moderator's point of view, there has been almost a week and several hundred posts of discussion going nowhere. It appears to me that, until Ibn-Khaldun returns, you have reached the point where nothing is going to be resolved. If you honestly believe that you can come to an agreement in the game, carry on. Otherwise, please consider giving us a holiday favor and cutting down on the volume (especially the increasing nastiness).

Many thanks.
I agree, but it is so amazingly frustrating, you have no idea.

[johnhughthom]

Unfortunately I can't really join back in, I am using a borrowed computer and may not have it for long so I don't want to join games I will likely have to drop out of quickly. What happened with I-K?

[Double A]

Screw this, I can't believe you've been blackmailed by :daisy:ing Switzerland. I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and I compromise, and you give me that piece of :daisy:? I tried to play plausibly, I tried to play as 17th Century France, and I am dictated to by Switzerland? And even worse you BOW TO HIM? That isn't the 30 Years War, that's not even diplomacy. That's idiocy. Congratulations, you have defeated me. Feel good about yourselves for driving a player to the very ends of frustration, and stop him from writing his 5,000 Essay on the Korean Economy, and for having irritated me so much that it is no longer possible to play the game. Screw this, I'm outta here.

I read what GH said, but I have to point this out.

Your definition of "compromise" is "give me all my land back and you can have a tiny bit of land and I won't attack you any more"

A compromise is when you do something agreeable to both sides, and unless you're the freaking Roman Empire fighting one Gallic tribe, you typically have to give up something if you want peace.

And you are definitely NOT the Roman Empire.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I am just done. :shrug: I am going with the Swiss cause I want this over, and frankly France for most of the past week it has been your stalling that stopped any treaty from going forward. What you call compromise most people call stonewalling and wasting time. I prefer to just go with the Swiss on this one, :shrug:. If you had simply Accepted Spain's proposal days ago maybe we would not have gotten to this point, but frankly you waited too long. I am not sure what the Swiss will say about Savoy, but perhaps making it independent will be acceptable as well.


If you are leaving because of that then that is up to you :shrug: I am not going to try and force you to stay, although I would prefer you too. Either way this deal is going forward. Its that or the Swiss say they go back to the original, 1/3 France to Swiss, 1/3 France to Spain, and 1/3 to Netherlands and me. I would prefer that not happen.


Personally I would be thankful you are getting out of this with all of traditional France under your control. :sweatdrop: But this has been discussed to death, I am done now. :shame:

I am sorry Subotan. Really :sweatdrop: :shame:

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would prefer Subotan stay, and I wish to state for the record and publicly it was never my intention to upset him and I apologize if I have. I have been attempting to play the game as a stubborn Swiss guy, and I hope it has not leaked into anything too OOC.

I will still be rather aggressive in my negotiations and stuff, but I really want to draw a line between that and anything unrelated to gaming. I respect you Subotan and I don't wish to cause a problem.

[Centurion1]

sorry france. i have not signed YET!!! (tricky swiss) but i am planning on it.

it really is a good deal.

[Askthepizzaguy]

sorry france. i have not signed YET!!! (tricky swiss) but i am planning on it.

it really is a good deal.

Ah my apologies for jumping the gun; I took it from your public affirmation of the 5,000 gold and that you'd end the war when England did, that you'd already de facto agreed to the deal. :2thumbsup:

But yes Saxony hadn't signed it yet.

[Centurion1]

yes i am signing it but i f it does not go through iwant nothing of this war with france. i have no serious qualms about them and will not fight.

[Askthepizzaguy]

No problems there. At that point that's pretty much all we would ask of you is to stand back.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Eh, if you need someone to play Savoy I suppose I could. Not to busy right now.

CR

[Splitpersonality]

Okay so I looked up and read ATPG's proposal which France has not signed yet, and I almost have to ask you to sign it Subotan.

I am the first man to jump for your aid, but I'd rather see you with some country, in peace, than no country because of a little hardheadedness. I will help pay for some of your debts as well if you want, and of course I will always loan you money after the game, whether or not that's RP acceptable.

Don't give your country so easily, the French may have pride, but as we have all seen, lines on a map are not permanent, who knows whose hands the land will fall into in the future. I hope you are not upset by the stress, I know it is hard to deal with games when you are very invested in them, and I share your pain, maybe not here but all the same.

:bow:

Just my two cents.

-ZygmuntIII

[Beskar]

CR, I think Crimea and Georgia would be better options. The west is completely full while the East is empty.

[Centurion1]

you dont wanna be crimea youd have to allow the ottomans four hexes of your most important land as well as being their vassal, take an independent georgia instead, plus room to expand

[Double A]

4 hexes in exchange for an extra 4000 a turn is a pretty good deal. Plus with our new protection package, you can get double the money and 3 units of siege artillery!

[Subotan]

Right, I just needed to cool off for a while, as I was getting amazingly frustrated for serveral reasons, which I'l explain here.

1.There were very few attempts made by either side to address the concerns that the other side had. True, I conceded Naples, and allowed Switzerland to keep Milan, as I realised it would be unfair to deny either of them that territory. But there was no serious attempt by the Spanish or the Swiss to go "Right, we understand that you don't want dominance in Italy, here's our compromise". There was no attempt to meet me halfway. It was amazingly frustrating presenting proposals and just being told "No. No. No. No." instead of "No, because of X, how about Y?

2. I presented my original deal, which I knew would never get accepted. I thought I would have been lucky to get my second one accepted. But the third? I expected at least a measure of support from the likes of England and Saxony, but instead I got either indifference or open hostility. Saxony in particular, if you had a problem with my deal, you should have PMed me. I started PMing with you, in an attempt to get that going without having to say "Criticise the deal over PMs, otherwise it makes us look weak in the thread", because I thought that that would be patronising, but instead I got things like "Why isn't Savoy going over to the Swiss?" in thread. And that was from my ally? No wonder there was gridlock, as both Spain and Switzerland could see that you obviously had problems with the deal and could just block the deal until I compromised. If you had presented a United Front in-thread, then this would have finished a lot faster (That's not to say I don't see myself as being a part of the problem; I just resent being called the problem)

3. Which leads me on to my next point. The reason I quit was because I had finally agreed to Spain's terms. And not only that, but England was happy with them, as was Saxony, Portugal, the Dutch etc. You had all commited yourselves to Spain's plan. And then Switzerland comes out of nowhere, and blackmails you all. That in itself was frustrating, but the straw that broke France's back was the fact that you all kowtowed to Switzerland's ridiculous demands.

Apparently, I was in the wrong for being threatened by Switzerland. I was the one who was stalling the peace process, the guy who had agreed to Spain's terms and was about to take "King of Italy" out of his signature, and was asking for suggestions for a city to name the treaty after. I was the one who was making unjust demands, refusing to cede territority which had been gifted to me, and which Switzerland had never contested in the first place. It actually made me angry that seeing as how many of my own alies had refused to support my own terms, and then were so eager to stab me in the back. That might not have been how you perceived or intended it to be, but that's how it looked like. It did not seem to occur to people that if you all just said "No", as you did with me, that Switzerland would have no choice but to say "Yes".



Your definition of "compromise" is "give me all my land back and you can have a tiny bit of land and I won't attack you any more"

A compromise is when you do something agreeable to both sides, and unless you're the freaking Roman Empire fighting one Gallic tribe, you typically have to give up something if you want peace.

And you are definitely NOT the Roman Empire.
That implies that it was just Me vs. Spain/Switzerland, and that I had lost a huge amount of territory and was actually losing. Neither of those things were true, and you know it.


I would prefer Subotan stay, and I wish to state for the record and publicly it was never my intention to upset him and I apologize if I have. I have been attempting to play the game as a stubborn Swiss guy, and I hope it has not leaked into anything too OOC.

It wasn't necessarily what you were saying, per se, which upset me, but the way everyone else reacted to it. Likewise, I don't want this to spill into something too OOC either.


I will still be rather aggressive in my negotiations and stuff, but I really want to draw a line between that and anything unrelated to gaming. I respect you Subotan and I don't wish to cause a problem.
Sure, that's your style of play. Not realistic, but who cares? I don't want to recreate history. However, what I disagree to is the possibilty, that, somehow, you could increase the size of Switzerland by over 200% in a war where you didn't make any territorial gains in my land. That's not just not realistic, but it's also not plausible, which is what I have been stressing throughout the game, and is why I inherited Savoy's claims, why AVSM should have had the Palatinate, why I was arguing against one power dominating Italy, why I resented ceding Savoy, seeing as it had been gained "legally", as opposed to just being conquered, why I made an alliance with Sweden, why I kept telling the Ottomans to keep their nose out of Western European affairs, and basically why I played the game as I did.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

First, I have to apologize for disappearing like that. :shame:
I have a flue and fever took me down. Forum was one of the last things on my mind then. I feel a bit better now and after I delete some old PM's I can send what I promised to send some time ago. :shame:

Subotan - I hope you don't leave the game! :sweatdrop:

Crazed Rabbit - If you want to join then I could send you some possible options.

EDIT: You might want to change those orders you people sent to me. I can see the situation in French-Swiss war have changed a lot(possible peace treaty etc) and thus you could have other things you want to do.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

First, I have to apologize for disappearing like that. :shame:
I have a flue and fever took me down. Forum was one of the last things on my mind then. I feel a bit better now and after I delete some old PM's I can send what I promised to send some time ago. :shame:

Subotan - I hope you don't leave the game! :sweatdrop:

Crazed Rabbit - If you want to join then I could send you some possible options.

Don't worry about it. :yes: We needed the extension anyway. Hope it passes. :juggle2:

[Subotan]

First, I have to apologize for disappearing like that. :shame:
I have a flue and fever took me down. Forum was one of the last things on my mind then. I feel a bit better now and after I delete some old PM's I can send what I promised to send some time ago. :shame:

It's not your fault you got the flu. Besides, it's better that you got it now than over Christmas.


Subotan - I hope you don't leave the game! :sweatdrop:


I don't want to either, but I've found the situation untenable, for the reasons outlined above. If some of those concerns are addressed, such as no more "omg savoy should be swiss" coming from my own allies in thread. I think the first treaty that we all agreed on was perfectly acceptable, and if the Swiss really do demand reparations than I'll pay some.

Note: I'm aware that this looks like "If I don't get my way, then I'm not playing any more!". I don't want to play like that, and I'm not going to. What I am annoyed at is the fact that everyone was cool with the original treaty, and then deserted it totally when Switzerland made those demands. That felt like more than just a betrayal in-game, but a betrayal of the agreement we had with each other, since no-one who agreed to it gained anything from agreeing to Switzerland's proposal, and because it would not have been difficult to challenge.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I can understand why the situation is frustrating.

The matter's been discussed at length between all parties, and although some earlier agreements were considered fair to some, the Swiss did not consider some of those to be fair. Other agreements were considered fair to everyone but the French. Somewhere in the middle lies the present compromise.

Your allies are basically paying reparations for you; you lose minimal territory.
Switzerland does not vastly increase in size and under the agreement will no longer be a threat to anyone in the region. And based on what the Swiss were originally asking for, it's less than half our original asking price for peace.

The previous idea of an agreement would have put Switzerland out of the war for half our recruitment costs and a third of France. Now you're basically keeping all of proper France and not paying anyone a dime. That is why your allies consider this a good deal. It also has to do with the current status of our military, the positions of our armies, allied reinforcements ready to roll, and the result of the battles thus far. It isn't a stalemate between the two sides; regardless of even if you had a pretty large army still around, your allies even acknowledge that one side has a clear advantage, and under the circumstances this is a good deal. It tastes bad, but the alternatives are worse, because the alternative is that France loses allied support while Spain/Switzerland/Ottomans continue the war. While not yet a total defeat of France by military force, France seems to be in an untenable diplomatic position. As it is a game of diplomacy, that is perhaps the largest factor in what the current proposal looks like. Were Switzerland in a weak military position with no allies and were making no concessions, for example, we would not be able to ask for anything.

France has the option to reject the peace agreement, however there is strong international backing for the current proposal by the Dutch/English/Spanish/Swiss, and it is very compromised in France's favor from original drafts. Paraphrasing French allies, it is a good deal, and the best peace deal France can expect at this present time.

What won't do, everyone agrees, is much more debate. The lines have been clearly drawn; both sides have budged quite a bit, and after a recent concession by the Swiss to give up on France itself, and 1/4 of our reparations, all France has to do is make the move to give up Savoy, or be prepared to continue the war. Now that is either acceptable or it isn't, it will either have your signature or it won't... no one will think less of you in either case. No one will think less of you if you've had enough of the game and want to leave; no one wants you to do so, that's probably why so many countries are investing in paying cash to buy off the Swiss to keep France alive.

So, we have a deal or we don't, we keep playing or we don't, but the main rule from here on out is that we don't let it bother us anymore, and we don't continue to fire barbed words back and forth because as fun as it can be, it can get out of hand. So ball is in the French court. Whatever you decide is fine.

[Centurion1]

welcome back ibn! we missed you

as for this french conflict the saxons dont feel there voice is needed but we will do what is needed to gain peace.

[Subotan]

OK fine. I'll declare Savoy Independent, and cede it to CR.

I have several issues with the treaty though


2. The Dutch are to loan or gift the French 15,000 gold to cover Swiss debts. They do this because they are interested in peace as well, and wish this pointless conflict to end. In order to ensure that nothing happens to threaten this peace, we ask that the funds go directly to the Swiss, not to France.
I'm not clear with what this means.


7. Should France or Swiss attack the other, the allies of the aggressor nation will break their alliance with the aggressor nation because of the violation of this peace agreement, and wash their hands of whatever happens to that nation. Switzerland is asking for this, because we view the French as untrustworthy and a bully. Please withdraw support from France if they attack us again in violation of this agreement.
Untenable. There is a reason clauses like this don't exist in diplomacy, because whern they do, they cause massive headaches, due to them being totally unable to react to developments that weren't anticipated. Say, for example, you start attacking Austria or Savoy or something, or if you are allied with the Ottomans who are rampaging across Europe. If I intervene like that, under the terms of that treaty, I must break my alliance with my allies. I understand your concern that I might attack you again. But that isn't the way to go about it. If you act amiably, there won't be a reason for me to declare war. And if I am being unreasonable, my allies will desert me regardless.

Btw what happened to

as well as hand over every hex I have in France.

[Askthepizzaguy]

OK fine. I'll declare Savoy Independent, and cede it to CR.

That's not a term of the peace treaty, and renders the deal void. However, that's yours, CR's, and the hosts prerogative.


I'm not clear with what this means.

England doesn't want to pay the entire war costs for the Swiss, and we're assuming you can't afford to either. The Dutch are offering to loan if you can repay, gift if you can't, the rest of the costs of this war to the Swiss. Or you can pay directly.


Untenable. There is a reason clauses like this don't exist in diplomacy, because whern they do, they cause massive headaches, due to them being totally unable to react to developments that weren't anticipated. Say, for example, you start attacking Austria or Savoy or something, or if you are allied with the Ottomans who are rampaging across Europe. If I intervene like that, under the terms of that treaty, I must break my alliance with my allies. I understand your concern that I might attack you again. But that isn't the way to go about it. If you act amiably, there won't be a reason for me to declare war. And if I am being unreasonable, my allies will desert me regardless.

Meh, it doesn't really matter. I have no way of enforcing the rule, and it seems the peace treaty isn't agreed to anyway due to the Savoy issue.


Btw what happened to

That's a matter between you and your allies; it's not for the Swiss to say. Talk to them, I assume they already agreed to that.

[Subotan]

That's not a term of the peace treaty, and renders the deal void. However, that's yours, CR's, and the hosts prerogative.

Meaning... You agree? Or not? I'm sorry, you're just not being clear.


England doesn't want to pay the entire war costs for the Swiss, and we're assuming you can't afford to either. The Dutch are offering to loan if you can repay, gift if you can't, the rest of the costs of this war to the Swiss. Or you can pay directly

Right.



That's a matter between you and your allies; it's not for the Swiss to say. Talk to them, I assume they already agreed to that.

Yeah, I know that, I was talking to CDF there.

[Splitpersonality]

I have also offered, quite out in the open, many times that I would assist France in paying debts.

Look at me, I'm important ;_;

[Askthepizzaguy]

Meaning... You agree? Or not? I'm sorry, you're just not being clear.

Swiss doesn't agree to cease-fire if Savoy goes neutral or remains in French possession. You're very clever, but Savoy being an allied state to France and fighting the Swiss over northern Italy, shockingly, is an unacceptable arrangement.

It may be all fair and legal in OOC game terms, but it will cause the war to continue. France loses absolutely NOTHING in the deal under those conditions, as your allies are paying your debts and Savoy remains hostile to the Swiss. That, we feel, should have been obvious.

[Beskar]

I have also offered, quite out in the open, many times that I would assist France in paying debts.

Look at me, I'm important ;_;

You can pay what I offered then Split. I am a very small country and it is a big blow to me economy wise. :cry:

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Yeah, I know that, I was talking to CDF there.



If you take the treaty I will move out of France and Brest Asap. That is about all there is to it. Considering I am also paying 10,000 to the Swiss as well I think one can not say I am getting anything out of this war. :brood:

I am really sorry Subotan, No hard feelings? :sweatdrop:

[Beskar]

Well, looks like the Peace treaty never went through and Subotan got banned again. How about a Pretender such as Crazed Rabbit takes over?

[miotas]

Everyone should declare a temporary ceasefire until Subo returns or we get a replacement.

[johnhughthom]

If it's just for a short period I could cover for Subotan, how long is his ban?

[miotas]

It's not a regular 2 day ban because he doesn't have a dash, and it's not a perma since his title isn't guest. I'll go shoot tosa a PM so we can get a better idea of what we need to do.

[Beefy187]

If it's just for a short period I could cover for Subotan, how long is his ban?

His back I believe

[Splitpersonality]

You can pay what I offered then Split. I am a very small country and it is a big blow to me economy wise. :cry:


Gladly!

OOC: I feel so unimportant I'm trying to jam my polish... wealth... down people's throats to try and be a positive foreign influence, is that IC enough? :clown:

[Double A]

You could hang out with us negative foreign influences. We're pretty cool. Except that guy who keeps talking about baguettes...

:clown:

[miotas]

Subo will be back in a few days, the question now is will he still be in the game?

Regardless of what happens I won't be making any attack this turn, I've already submitted my orders(which contain no attack orders) and I'll probably be gone for about a week from tomorrow.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I was told by one of the other players (Cultured Drizzt Fan) that Subotan agreed to the terms of the peace via Private Message. Then it is settled. We shall move forward with the peace accord as agreed upon.

Regardless of whether Subotan can send in orders this round, I'll hold up my end of the bargain provided England, Saxony, and I guess Poland? Does. Spain and Ottomans also agree.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Update: All right I can see that the peace basically hinges on whether Crazed Rabbit joins the game as Savoy. The current deal is unacceptable to me if Savoy goes independent, and because it was part of the deal I signed on to. At that point I'd want to continue the war just so one of us so gets knocked out and the other can have the space. If it is the Swiss that dies as a result, that's fine.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Update: All right I can see that the peace basically hinges on whether Crazed Rabbit joins the game as Savoy. The current deal is unacceptable to me if Savoy goes independent, and because it was part of the deal I signed on to. At that point I'd want to continue the war just so one of us so gets knocked out and the other can have the space. If it is the Swiss that dies as a result, that's fine.

He agreed to the deal man :shrug: We can put this behind us. :yes: I think......


CR can still join though. if he wanted too I might even be willing to make South Ireland a Vassal. :yes:, that or he could Be Georgia, Crimea, or a bunch of other things.

But I think the peace deal is all signed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

He agreed to the deal man :shrug: We can put this behind us. :yes: I think......


CR can still join though. if he wanted too I might even be willing to make South Ireland a Vassal. :yes:, that or he could Be Georgia, Crimea, or a bunch of other things.

But I think the peace deal is all signed.

Yes, it's signed, but Subotan is telling me that the deal is that Savoy goes independent, not to the Swiss, which is half of the point of the peace arrangement from the Swiss' perspective, and the alternative is not part of what I agreed to. I'm just making note of it. Like I said, whatever happens is fine. CR joins as another nation, we're all cool. CR joins as Savoy, and the treaty needs to be renegotiated or it is null and void. I am perfectly happy with those outcomes.

[Greyblades]

I just want to stop running around france while some guy demands that I give up italy.

[Centurion1]

is ibn still sick?

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

is ibn still sick?

Probably, he said the worst was over, but it has not completely gone. :sweatdrop:

[Centurion1]

darn i still dont have my report. oh well im on break now so i got plenty of time

[Beskar]

I went my orders in as soon as I got my results. My orders needed to happen anyway, so I though I would do them asap.

[Splitpersonality]

Still no report ;-;

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I apologize but those few past days I've had problems signing in to the Org.
When I managed to do so I couldn't send PM's or post since the pages gave me errors all the time. :wall:
I hope that what ever problems Org had they are fixed now(or will be fixed soon enough) since they make my head explode.:wall:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

PM's have been sent, finally. :wall:

I really hope that they fix what ever is causing these problems in Org soon!!! :wall:

[johnhughthom]

I've finally got myself a new computer and I can help out again if you need I-K. Just give me a few days to get used to this Windows 7 lark, never used Vista so it's all very strange for me right now, I miss good old XP...

[Splitpersonality]

I want to thank you for toughing it through these problems on the org to get us our mail, <3 Ibn.

You're a good host :D

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Yeah, thanks for toughing it out Ibn :sweatdrop: Hopefully after the forums clear we will still have all our players. :juggle2:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I hope that it's not too much to ask but perhaps it's possible to send your orders before 28th December?

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I hope that it's not too much to ask but perhaps it's possible to send your orders before 28th December?

Heading in right now :2thumbsup: just adding a few extra bits.

Get to it the rest of you, lets get back on a roll. :whip: :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Those who had events should PM me their choice as well.
If you don't then I automatically pick that Refuse/Decline option.

[Beskar]

I have to admit, the events option you gave me was very mean. :( I hope Russia/Ottoman/Big Nations all have events like that with greater effects.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Don't worry.. There are events like that to everyone. Whether they are "activated" is another question(if you don't do much then.. no events).

[Greyblades]

Hmm, I wonder what events I will get...

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Me too..... I don't even care if they are bad events, they will probably still be awesome. :yes:


Can you say English civil war? I am watching my back for when that happens. :whip: :laugh4::laugh4: (its a ways away, but you have to be careful....)




Once again, Ibn this games is awesome. :juggle2: :laugh4::laugh4: :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

CDf - If you keep playing with that "Allies: On/Off" switch then you will get your Civil war. :laugh4:

[Beskar]

CDf - If you keep playing with that "Allies: On/Off" switch then you will get your Civil war. :laugh4:

What about the Glorious Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution), Ibn? :beam:

[Greyblades]

I dont think william of orange is even born yet.

[Beskar]

True, it would just be a few years earlier, but with Maurice of Nassu, Prince of Orange.

I also have to admit, I was upset that the Netherlands colour wasn't orange, as afterall, my ruler is the Pince of Orange.

(Though I think it is spelt Oranje or similar in dutch)

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ibn-Khaldun, could you tell me whether CR is joining the game as Savoy or not? Many thanks. :bow:

[Centurion1]

thanks ibn.

sorry as you know i have a pretty tough decision to make and i really have to think about it. but sure ill be done way before the 28th

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

CDf - If you keep playing with that "Allies: On/Off" switch then you will get your Civil war. :laugh4:

OI! I only did it ONE time! :furious3: It was a strategic decision I arrived at after a long pondering.


It will not normally happen again. :sweatdrop: I do care about my diplomatic reputation.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ibn-Khaldun, could you tell me whether CR is joining the game as Savoy or not? Many thanks. :bow:

Right now, to my knowledge, I'm not.

CR

[Ibn-Khaldun]

CR, I asked you in this thread whether you still want to join but you didn't answer and I thought you gave up. :sweatdrop:

Anyway, if you want to join as Savoy then I will allow that. However, there are couple other countries I can offer to you. Some will be in very difficult situation but they should be interesting to play.:yes:

Centurion1 - If you want I can tell you what triggered that event? This could help you in the future when you make your decisions.

[Greyblades]

Bit off more land than he can chew?

[Crazed Rabbit]

CR, I asked you in this thread whether you still want to join but you didn't answer and I thought you gave up. :sweatdrop:

Anyway, if you want to join as Savoy then I will allow that. However, there are couple other countries I can offer to you. Some will be in very difficult situation but they should be interesting to play.:yes:

Centurion1 - If you want I can tell you what triggered that event? This could help you in the future when you make your decisions.

Whoops. :sweatdrop:

How about Georgia, that's the one just north of the Ottomans right? Probably be better than practically being the demilitarized zone between Spain, Switzerland and France.

CR

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Or you could be demilitarized zone between Austria-Ottomans or Ottomans-Poland-Transylvania.. :rolleyes:

But if you want Georgia then I'm fine with it. I just hope you don't get lonely out there. :laugh4:

EDIT: Just give me couple of days to check Georgian history during 17th Century.. :sweatdrop:

[Beskar]

EDIT: Just give me couple of days to check Georgian history during 17th Century.. :sweatdrop:

They were part of the Ottoman Empire at that stage. (according to EU3)

[Subotan]

Or you could be demilitarized zone between Austria-Ottomans or Ottomans-Poland-Transylvania.. :rolleyes:

Awesome you could be all Serbian and hide in the bushes and stuff. Like the Wild West, except, uh, in the East.



EDIT: Just give me couple of days to check Georgian history during 17th Century.. :sweatdrop:
IIRC they didn't do anything for centuries after the Mongols, then got battered by the Russians.

EDIT: @Beskar, I have a series of maps which trump any Paradox game

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Georgia/geor_17th.jpg

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Georgia/geor_18th.jpg

Huh. Looks like it was divided into several different kingdoms.

Fun!

[Centurion1]

oh i know ibn, breaking of treaty of augsburg, blah blah blah, conversion, blah blah blah.

the bavarians can kiss my *** their options are terrible.

[Subotan]

oh i know ibn, breaking of treaty of augsburg, blah blah blah, conversion, blah blah blah.

the bavarians can kiss my *** their options are terrible.

HEY

People from Augsburg are Swabians

[Centurion1]

do you know what the treaty of augsburg is? it applied to all the assorted german states. no forced conversion of the people.

[Subotan]

Yes, I know what it was, although from your post it looked like you were referring to the people in Augsburg as being Bavarians. And seeing as you do seem to be breaking it, it looks like you're in for a world of pain in Southern/Western Germany.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Hey France, I sent in two sets of orders in case the treaty went through or not, but can either way, can you say whether this war is over or not? :juggle2:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Because CR isn't joining as Savoy, and all parties agreed to the treaty, we need to send it to Ibn-Khaldun with our collective seal of approval.

Everyone already agreed publicly, in-thread here, so I assume the treaty goes through. But let's send it to Ibn just to be safe.

Cheers, everyone :medievalcheers:

As far as I am concerned, the war is over. My allies feel the same way.

[Centurion1]

no im not.

im not the one who broke it.

[Beskar]

I haven't broken it... untill this turn. :beam:

Also, Wuttemberg can shoot itself in the foot, I am not giving up my territory and having to invade Saxony for other hexes for it.