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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
yeah, I said to CW that maybe we should use Tentera Usman, but apparently, he didn't understand that Usman / Uthman, were the "original" name of the Ottomans
EDIT : he does undertands that "Uthmani" is another name of the Turks, but he thinks that inclusion of the Pahlawan Uthmani, as opposed to Syamisir was a bit weird.
By the way, he had reported that current bodyguard units are (on large):
Europeans : - Knights ( full armoured heavy cavalry with lances and swords ) 20 horsemen per unit (1 HP)
Aceh-Melaka : - Gajah Kenaikan ( elephant archers bodyguards ) 12 men (4 elephants) per unit (4HP / elephants)
Sriwijaya-Palembang : - Pengawal ????? (heavy cavalry with lances and axes / or maybe maces) 30 horsemen per unit (1 HP)
Pajajaran : - Pengawal Kuda Purgabaya (heavy cavalry with javelins and parang (dual wield cavalry is impossible with curent animation stats) I don't know why he planned to made them into elite skirmisher typed cavalry as he using javelins and not lances. Ok, plutoboyz may know about that better, as they are 20 men per unit (2HP)
and this was the problem, the Javanese faction Bodyguards... actually, I and CW are arguing each other with what type of Bodyguards that they'll use...
well, the Javanese royalty have some weird (we can call them immposible to portay correctly in RTW) way to go to battle. Generally, the nobles will ride to battle as heavily armoured horse archers (close to what we call cataphracts), and true cataphract lancers (including turrangawesi, the specific Javanese horse armour that was made from lacquered wood paired with steel plates). But the true Royalty will be either (EITHER!!!) escorted by Chariots, or lifted in sedan chairs (how lazy!) into the battle. That was some account of Javanese Royalty riding horse into battle as Cataphract, but they are exceptions and those who fight as true cavalry are generally carrer generals, and not the pampered royalty...
well, taking the consideration on the default FM (which will be the born royalty bodyguards), they ride chariots into battle, or enjoy sedan chairs... but in Babad Tanah Jawi, if they are required to fought and bolster the men's morale....... THEY WILL FOUGHT DISMOUNTED.
well, and that was our subject of debate
1) I propose they should be chariot bodyguards, maybe chariot archers, the second points of this choice is : the Javanese army did have majority of Infantry, but cavalry is important aspect, and they have some of the best cavalry in this age, especially their mounted archers and cataphracts. It was a good reason to made the generals as cavalry units because they are supposed to be good cavalry factions... well... but
2) Cute Wolf propose they should be infantry bodyguards, as he points out that they fought dismounted, and in many records, the king himself would led the decisive charges on foot 9as opposed on the chariots), but this will be a bit ridiculous, remember that Javanese have good horsemen? and this will look like Saka army led by infantry generals... simply weird... confusing eh?
3) I try to made a compromise, they could be Cataphract archers bodyguards... as this way, they will capable to fought in melee, while have significant range and ability to skirmish out of the battle, and only involved personally only if required... but we still don't have one words in this matter... anyone could help with an idea? thanks...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
I agreed that Melaka using elephant as bodyguard. It was very clear in Hikayat too.
But for the sake of knowledge, Melaka royal members also used horses and palanquin (Paduka Tuan fought Portuguese on palanquin, that was stated in Sejarah Melayu), so it was same case as variety in Javanese bodyguard.
hmm, can the RTW engines make FM riding horse, than dismount when fighting?.... I don't think so.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
yeah, but the Chariot - infantry - or cavalry bodyguards, are rather a big problem for us, at least now... what is your opinion then?
EDIT : the Javanese will have the best selection of cavalry, so I personally think CW ideas of presenting them with infantry BG are rather lame...
ADD: And I allready see that you mention the old unit lists, well, the slingers will be regionals, and the gun units have their own gunsmith buildings (the same with european barracks), so they will be put on the list later, when CW had done his works...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sonic
yeah, but the Chariot - infantry - or cavalry bodyguards, are rather a big problem for us, at least now... what is your opinion then?
EDIT : the Javanese will have the best selection of cavalry, so I personally think CW ideas of presenting them with infantry BG are rather lame...
hmm, I don't want to speculate, but Hikayat Hang Tuah mentioned that Seri Betara Majapahit and Ratu Daha either riding elephant or horse.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
hmm, I don't want to speculate, but Hikayat Hang Tuah mentioned that Seri Betara Majapahit and Ratu Daha either riding elephant or horse.
maybe we should made cavalry unit of them that way (sending SMS to CW's phone)... BTW, elephants is scarce commodity in Jawa, and elephant ridings was more ceremonial than practical.
ADD : And CW just said that made then 2 HP mounted archers is just silly, because the faction that should have the best close combat units is Pajajaran (the only one with 2HP bodyguards), made them into 20 men BG (like the europeans) will made them the worst bodyguard unit, while made them into 30 men Cataphract archers Bodyguards (just made them in line with South Sumateran cavalry bodyguards), will cause them to become de facto free upkeep Turanggawesi (javanese cataphract), because the standard Turanggawesi will only had 40 men per unit (they are rare unit, but have great impact in battle) maybe we should either raise the Javanese cataphract's numbers??? or let them become the cheapest and weakest BG arround with 20 men?
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sonic
yeah, I said to CW that maybe we should use Tentera Usman, but apparently, he didn't understand that Usman / Uthman, were the "original" name of the Ottomans
EDIT : he does undertands that "Uthmani" is another name of the Turks, but he thinks that inclusion of the Pahlawan Uthmani, as opposed to Syamisir was a bit weird...
no, their real name is Devlet-i ʿĀliye-yi ʿOsmāniyye. Osmāniyye for short (yes, it is how Ottoman turk call it.). Ustmani is for Arab, Persian. later introduced by the Persian to Aceh.
I have friend in Turkey. he knows a lot about Ottoman. do you have question about Ottoman army in Aceh?
Quote:
Pajajaran : - Pengawal Kuda Purgabaya (heavy cavalry with javelins and parang (dual wield cavalry is impossible with curent animation stats) I don't know why he planned to made them into elite skirmisher typed cavalry as he using javelins and not lances. Ok, plutoboyz may know about that better, as they are 20 men per unit (2HP)
puragabaya actually able to use anykinds of weapon. kujang is favored among noble and their Javelin actually is a spear, Legionary fighting style was common. so my suggestion is:
Native name : Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya.
English name: Sundanese Warrior preist cavalry.
Weapon: Kujang Pangarak(a spear-like kujang. like other kujang, its poisonous) and Javelin.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sonic
and it was more logic involved, I see CW not yet giving the gunpowder units, but here's the gunpowder units for Melayu:
- Gun Skirmishers (cheap gun infantry - remember that guns are actually easier to use than bows, they will be short ranged like skirmishers, and not too accurate, but cheap and widely available)
- Gun troopers the Regular Gunners
- Turkish gun troopers (regular gunners - on par with european gunners)
- Elite musketters (elite unit)
Well, up to today, 3 phrases are found: Saldadu Istinggar, Pegawai Istinggar (both in Sejarah Melayu) and Awinan Astenggar (Hikayat Banjar dan Kota Waringin)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
no, their real name is Devlet-i ʿĀliye-yi ʿOsmāniyye. Osmāniyye for short (yes, it is how Ottoman turk call it.). Ustmani is for Arab, Persian. later introduced by the Persian to Aceh.
I have friend in Turkey. he knows a lot about Ottoman. do you have question about Ottoman army in Aceh?
puragabaya actually able to use anykinds of weapon. kujang is favored among noble and their Javelin actually is a spear, Legionary fighting style was common. so my suggestion is:
Native name : Kasatrya Kuda Puragabaya.
English name: Sundanese Warrior preist cavalry.
Weapon: Kujang Pangarak(a spear-like kujang. like other kujang, its poisonous) and Javelin.
So we should made them into javelin-spear cavalry? hmm... just like Numidian Nobles?
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
so be it... thanks....
wait... did we finally agreed Javanese bodyguards as Catass Archers? any opinion?
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
After much re-reading arguments, articles, reviewing discussions, and taking into consideration of BOTH similar equipped and called units (so no more "hey, both of this units is called prajurit tumbak, they are equipped much the same, but why are two of them? the sundanese and javanese headgear is only a skin-deep portayal, no need to create another model nor another unit), reducing the overcrowding lists of elephants and chariots (dang! we could made most of them regionals)... so this is the unit lists...
Melayu (aceh-melaka)
factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Melayu Watchmen (tombak) = Orang Berkawal
Melayu-Sriwj City Guards (archer-golok) = Pengawal Kota
Acehnese Swordsmen Militia (pedang) = Laskar Aceh
Malaka-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-tombak) = Penjurit
Melayu Shock Trooper (double scimitar) = Tentera Penggempur
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-golok) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Pangawitan
Acehnese Heavy Infantry (pedang) = Laskar Pedeung
Acehnese Cadet Shock Troopers (2handed peusangan) = Peusangan Askar
Melayu Heavy Archers (archer-scimitars) = Laskar Pemanah
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Melayu Ottoman Elite Infantry (archer-scimitars) = Sayyidi Arab
Malakan Royal Swordsmen (keris panjang) = Bentara Istana
Acehnese Honorary Guards (javelin-kapak) = Sahabat Istana
factional cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Melayu-Sriwj Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces) = Kuda Perang
Melayu Noble Cav (lances-cavlswords) = Pegawai Dan Pertuanan
Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)
Acehnese Royal Horsemen (cavmaces) = Ulee Balang
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Melayu Royal War Elephants (elephant archers) = Gajah Perang Melayu
gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok)
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Bodyguard:
Melayu Bodyguards (elephant archers) = Gajah Kenaikan
Jawi (Bintara-Majapahit):
factional (non-gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Javanese Militia (tombak) = Kroco
Javanese Watchmen (archer-golok) = Jogo Karyo
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Javanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Prajurit Pamedhang
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Bintara Pikemen (pike-keris) = Tentoro Tumbak Dowo
Majapahit Axemen (2handed kapak) = Prajurit Kampak Blambangan
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Javanese "Saka" Heavy Spearmen (overhead tombakkeris) = Pagerwesi
Majapahit Armoured Macemen (gada) = Prajurit Godhowesi
Javanese Knights / Pendekar (2handed keris swords) = Pandhekar
Bintara Sultan's Chinese Guards (crossbow-scimitar) = Punggawa Cino
Javanese Noble Knights / Satria (keris panjang) = Satrio
Majapahit Royal Shadowguards (overhead tombakkeris) = Bhayangkara
Factional Cavalry:
Javanese Raider-Scouts (cavarchers-cavshortswords) = Telik Sandi
Javanese Feudal Cavalry (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Prajurit Tumpak Jaran
Javanese Noble Cataphract (cavarchers-cavlswords) = Turanggawesi
Javanese Cataphract Lancers (lancers-cavlswords) = Satriyo Turanggawesi
Javanese Elite Cataphracts (cavarchers-lancers) = Satriyo Priyayi
Javanese Chariots (chariot-archers) = Kreto Tempur
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Javanese Armoured War Elephantss (elephant-javelin) = Gajah Wesi
Gunpowder Units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Javanese Gunners (gun-keris)
Bintara-Palembang Royal Chinese Gunners (gun-dao)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)
Bodyguards:
Javanese Cataphract Bodyguards (cavarchers-kerislancers) = Punggawa Turanggawesi
Pajajaran:
factional (non gunpowder) infantry:
Javanese-Sundanese Peasants (sickles) = Tani
Sundanese Watchmen (golok) = Wado
Java-Sunda Feudal Spearmen (javelin-overhead tombak) = Prajurit Tumbak
Java-Sunda Feudal Archers (archer-golok) = Prajurit Panah
Sundanese Feudal Swordsmen (parang) = Pamarang
Sundanese Elite Watchmen (javelin-tombak) = Bayangkara
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Swordsmen (longswords) = Prajurit Bajubesi
Sundanese Royal Spearmen (tombakkujang) = Balamati
Sundanese Royal Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Balamati Kujang
Sundanese Jawara (double golok) = Jawara
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Swordsmen (parang) = Kasatrya Pamarang Purgabaya
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Bladesmen (javelin-kujang) = Kasatrya Kujang Purgabaya
Sundanese Elite Warrior-Priest (2handed tombakkujang) = Kasatrya Purgabaya
factional cavalry:
Sundanese Light Cavalry (cavjav-lancers) = Prajurit Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Royal Horsemen (cavparang) = Balamati Tumpak Kuda
Sundanese Warrior-Priest Cav (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Kasatrya Kuda Purgabaya
Sundanese Chariot (chariot-archers) = Kereta Kuda
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Sundanese War Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Pasukan Gajah Siliwangi
gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sundanese Euro-Armoured Gunners (gun-longswords)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)
Bodyguards:
Sundanese WarPri Cav Bodyguards (cavjav-kujanglancers) = Pengawal Purgabaya
South Sumatera (Palembang-Sriwijaya)
factional (non-gunpowder) infantry:
Sriwj Town Watch (pedang) = Penjaga Kota
Melayu-Sriwj City Guards (archer-golok) = Pengawal Kota
Sriwj Skirmishers (javelin-overhead tombak) = Pelempar Lembing
Malaka-Sriwj Spearmen (javelin-tombak) = Penjurit
Sriwj Axe Soldiers (javelin-kapak) = Tentara Kapak
Sriwj Light Infantry (javelin-kukhri) = Tentara Sriwijaya
Sriwj Crossbowmen (crossbow-golok) = Pembidik
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Melayu-Sriwj Pikemen (pike-golok) = Pertikaman
Melayu-Sriwj Halberdiers (2handed spear-axes) = Pangawitan
Melayu-Palemb-Bintr Arab Swordsmen (scimitars) = Laskar Arab
Sriwj Elite Mariners (pedang panjang) = Pelaut Sriwijaya
Sriwijaya Elite Light Infantry (javelin-kukhri) = Kesatria Kukri
Palembang Palace Guards (keris panjang) = Pengawal Istana
Sriwijaya Black Lotus (2handed tombak) = Teratai Hitam
Factional Cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Melayu-Sriwj Light Cav (lancers-cavmaces) = Kuda Perang
Sriwj Noble Cavalry (cavjav-kerislancers) = Prajurit Bangsawan
Sriwj Royal Cavalry (kerislancers-cavkapak) = Prajurit Kuda Istana
Sriwijayan Chariots (chariot-javelins) = Kereta Perang
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
Sriwijayan War Elephants (elephant-archers) = Gajah Perang Sumatera
Gunpowder Units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Sriwj Indian Gunners (gun-scimitar)
Bintara-Palembang Royal Chinese Gunners (gun-dao)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Majapahit-Sriwijaya-Sunda Noble Handgunners (gun-parang)
Bodyguards:
Sriwj Bodyguards (lancers-cavaxes) = Pengawal Berkuda
EDIT : Stats will be updated later
well.... similar names, means they are one unit indeed... (kembali ngerjain TA... huhuhu)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
I have correct something.
btw, are Bintara and Majapahit army really same? I thought it was different.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
what? you must never heard what your teacher says in history subjects... Kesultanan Demak are founded by Majapahit Muslim prince, "Raden Patah", who coordination with "wali songo" caused a significant portion of Majapahit army to embrace Islam, and support Demak instead... So that's why they are essentially same army type, with minor variants in elite units (Raden Patah and Wali Songo are Muslim Chinese, so it was not surprising, when the recent scroll translations shown that Demak employs sizeable numbers of Chinese (muslim) soldiers. While majapahit still stucked with older style soldiers, like macemen, and axemen, which was still very intimidating due to their prowess, and the later axemen employs war tattos made of human (enemy) blood)
well, and the "forest worker elephants" are esentially local elephant forces, pressed to serve in war..... better not to remove them... as they are generic unit for every native factions
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
what? you must never heard what your teacher says in history subjects... Kesultanan Demak are founded by Majapahit Muslim prince, "Raden Patah", who coordination with "wali songo" caused a significant portion of Majapahit army to embrace Islam, and support Demak instead... So that's why they are essentially same army type, with minor variants in elite units (Raden Patah and Wali Songo are Muslim Chinese, so it was not surprising, when the recent scroll translations shown that Demak employs sizeable numbers of Chinese (muslim) soldiers. While majapahit still stucked with older style soldiers, like macemen, and axemen, which was still very intimidating due to their prowess, and the later axemen employs war tattos made of human (enemy) blood)
well, and the "forest worker elephants" are esentially local elephant forces, pressed to serve in war..... better not to remove them... as they are generic unit for every native factions
I do listen my teacher. but what I meant is that Demak, is one of most technologically advanced army along with Aceh, Melaka and Banten. there must be a significant difference between Majapahit and Demak.
btw, I don't see Balamati Pamanah? Removed? and about Pamarang, because their name is pamarang doesn't mean they carry Parang. they carry sword(Pědang).
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
I do listen my teacher. but what I meant is that Demak, is one of most technologically advanced army along with Aceh, Melaka and Banten. there must be a significant difference between Majapahit and Demak.
btw, I don't see Balamati Pamanah? Removed? and about Pamarang, because their name is pamarang doesn't mean they carry Parang. they carry sword(Pědang).
They can train pikemen, while Majapahit can't
They can train disciplined Arab Swordsmen, while Majapahit can't
They can train chinese gunners and elite guards (w crossbows), while Majapahit can't
And I not yet updated the artillery, but Majapahit will only get a few, while Demak had second best full acess of Artillery after Aceh... (discounting Europeans)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
They can train pikemen, while Majapahit can't
They can train disciplined Arab Swordsmen, while Majapahit can't
They can train chinese gunners and elite guards (w crossbows), while Majapahit can't
And I not yet updated the artillery, but Majapahit will only get a few, while Demak had second best full acess of Artillery after Aceh... (discounting Europeans)
Thats what I mean. you merge the list, confuse me. btw, Why Jawi? Jawi is Malaysian Arab Abjad. and where is trisula warrior? Sriwijaya known for It's Trisula User.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
Thats what I mean. you merge the list, confuse me. btw, Why Jawi? Jawi is Malaysian Arab Abjad. and where is trisula warrior? Sriwijaya known for It's Trisula User.
I'm affraid you are mistaken about Jawi... ancient Javanese called the greater jawa as Jawi... and remember that one of the primary sources are "Babad Tanah Jawi"
And about Trisula? I know it, but it was more ceremonial (and assasination-related) nature than battle worthy... a dagger which only had a small section of sharpened tip, no more than 30 cm in blade length, and the proper user must put his middle and index fingers in the grip. I think their nobles will carry it on their armour as backup, but an't be portayed in real battle sequences...
And if you may argue that will be longer variation for battle, I will said that put aside Strict Palembang and Pasemah Area, there was no evidence of widespread trisula weaponary... perhaps we could use them as regionals? (but definitely not with 30 cm blade)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
30 cm? no, I mean The Spear version. its used sometimes by Sunda-Galuh, Banten and Cirebon which I'm sure introduced by Sriwijayan during Java Expedition.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
oh, garpu perang? (Damn, when I heard Trisula, I always remember Ninja Turtles).... ngga banyak dipakai, mungkin ntar jadi regional aja...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Strategos Lykos
gunpowder units:
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub)
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok)
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars)
Generic Gun Skirmishers (gun-gunclub) : Penjurit Istinggar / Laskar Istinggar, which one better?
Melayu Regular Gunners (gun-golok) : Pegawai Istinggar
Melayu Turkish Gunners (gun-scimitars) : Soldadu Istinggar / Ispinggar (well, in Hikayat hang Tuah, the one that used scimitar and gun was called serdadu / seridadu / soldadu or we are using Turkish language?, while ispinggar is in Hikayat Acheh, the soldier that used gun and Busur Perasi (Persian-bow, used by crew of Mir'at as-Safa [Acheh Royal battleship])
Melayu-Palembang Sultan's Royal Gunners (gun-scimitars) : Awinan Estanggar (Awinan / Pengawinan is royal spear-bearer, can we design the gun to be decorated?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Strategos Lykos
Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)
Not found any translated word yet. Maybe we can use Turkish word?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Strategos Lykos
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot
I think Laut is the standard spelling in Kamus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Strategos Lykos
Melayu Shock Trooper (double scimitar) = Tentera Penggempur
First, I suggest Tentera penggempur because I directly translated it from English. But when you said it was employed because of the "Pengampunan" system, I suggest new name: Orang Suruhan (this phrase was found many in Hikayat and text), or Orang Kerahan (found in Syair Sultan Maulana) or Tentera Kerahan / Askar Kerahan / Kerahan Tenaga
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
wolf, what you mean about Turkish Soldier, is it about Osmani soldier under Kurtoğlu? or about Aceh soldier that trained by Osmani Officer? my friend confused.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
they are pretty much foreign soldiers hired to fight for.... maybe under kartogulu ... (hmm must wait for a week for sonic to shown up again)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Kurtoğlu shown up in 1564, mainly consist of mariner.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
if he carry a lot of gunmen, that's him
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Gunmen? Not many Gunmen, but countless Big baddass Turkish Bombard.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
Gunmen? Not many Gunmen, but countless Big baddass Turkish Bombard.
yeah, that's right.... including the big monster bombard of M2TW? :grin:
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
yeah, that's right.... including the big monster bombard of M2TW? :grin:
umm.... nope. their ship can't hold such thing. basically, it was Mariner, and some Auxilary troops.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
Melayu (aceh-melaka)
factional cavalry:
Melayu-Sriwj Militia Cav (cavjav-lancers) = Penunggang Kuda
Well, I suggest the phrase "Gembala Kuda" (Horse Herdsman), because:
a) The term Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah appear in Hikayat Hang Tuah as the trainer of war horses and war elephants.
b) Although herdsman associated with civilian, horse herdsman and elephant herdsman / mahout were special in Malay society because they were not like cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd (they trained horse and elephant for war and vehicle, while cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd rear cow and goat for livestock, and buffaloes to plough the paddy-field. Horses are too expensive to become livestock.)
c) Well, they are militia cavalry, originally as civilian, then become soldier at time of emergency.
Quote:
Native Forest Worker Elephants (elephant-javelin) = Prajurit Gajah
I suggest the phrase "Gembala Gajah" (mahout) because of above reasons.
A part of Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah, the term Penghulu Kuda and Penghulu Gajah also appeared in Hikayat Acheh, they were royal trainer of war horses and elephants in Acheh court.
Quote:
Melayu Turkish Cav (cavarchers-cavscimitars)
Well, I only found the term Kuda Tizi Peperangan (swift horse of war) from the letter of Acheh's Sultan and Sultanah, it said that the horse breed was imported from various places, especially middle-east:
...ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus2 kuda tizi peperangan yang seru jenis daripada jenis Arabi dan Rumi dan Turki dan Kuci dan Lahur dan Abaya dan Tongkin dan Gudh
(he is the king granted by God the possession of horses caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli and hundreds of swift horses for use in war, of all kinds of stock, Arab and Rumi (Byzantine) and Turkish and Cochin and Lahore and Abaya and Tongkin and Gudh)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
I think the word "gembala" are rather melayu only words... because the Javanese also share that kind of unit (who'll not using elephants in war when available, even when barely trained for war?)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
hey,
after watching a NatGeo Doc.
Malaysians use Special Warriors: Silat Men to Resist Enemy Invasions
maybe it will help as one Special Unit in this mod?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
Well, I suggest the phrase "Gembala Kuda" (Horse Herdsman), because:
a) The term Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah appear in Hikayat Hang Tuah as the trainer of war horses and war elephants.
b) Although herdsman associated with civilian, horse herdsman and elephant herdsman / mahout were special in Malay society because they were not like cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd (they trained horse and elephant for war and vehicle, while cow herdsman, goat herdsman and shepherd rear cow and goat for livestock, and buffaloes to plough the paddy-field. Horses are too expensive to become livestock.)
c) Well, they are militia cavalry, originally as civilian, then become soldier at time of emergency.
I suggest the phrase "Gembala Gajah" (mahout) because of above reasons.
A part of Gembala Kuda and Gembala Gajah, the term Penghulu Kuda and Penghulu Gajah also appeared in Hikayat Acheh, they were royal trainer of war horses and elephants in Acheh court.
Well, I only found the term Kuda Tizi Peperangan (swift horse of war) from the letter of Acheh's Sultan and Sultanah, it said that the horse breed was imported from various places, especially middle-east:
...ialah raja yang karunia Allah Ta‘ala mengempukan kuda berpakaian mas bepermata belazuardi dan beratus2 kuda tizi peperangan yang seru jenis daripada jenis Arabi dan Rumi dan Turki dan Kuci dan Lahur dan Abaya dan Tongkin dan Gudh
(he is the king granted by God the possession of horses caparisoned in gold studded with jewels and lapis-lazuli and hundreds of swift horses for use in war, of all kinds of stock, Arab and Rumi (Byzantine) and Turkish and Cochin and Lahore and Abaya and Tongkin and Gudh)
Kuda Tizi are maybe Malay Cataphracts, so, keeping Cataphracts will maybe, Easen the work
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
I never seen such like Melayu Horse Armour in the museum... perhaps you allready see about them?... hmm....
well, Melayu and Javanese nobility are descendants of (ancient Sriwijayan) Saka Rulers afterall...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
I never seen such like Melayu Horse Armour in the museum... perhaps you allready see about them?... hmm....
well, Melayu and Javanese nobility are descendants of (ancient Sriwijayan) Saka Rulers afterall...
Not rlly....
But, I think not. Javanese and Malay are too lowly to have heavy armor. And the large Euro Horses, they don't fit in
But about the Silatmen, they do exist.
Back to the cataphracts:
It's a Chronicle, and
"Di lebay-lebayin" namanya juga kisah, fiktif belaka. Masa armor emas, gila aja kalee
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gaius Septimus Severus
Not rlly....
But, I think not. Javanese and Malay are too lowly to have heavy armor. And the large Euro Horses, they don't fit in
But about the Silatmen, they do exist.
Back to the cataphracts:
It's a Chronicle, and
"Di lebay-lebayin" namanya juga kisah, fiktif belaka. Masa armor emas, gila aja kalee
please speak english in the forge.... because Jiri, Finn, and Skull won't understood Indo-Malayan
well, it was not a gold armour, it was actually gold-like steel armour coated with brass... but the King's horse in majapahit times DID have the golden Cataphract armour (look about Jayanegara), it wan't a fiction because the Trowulan museum indeed have the golden Cataphract armour....
of course, they are usually steel coated with brass, with some flexible area made of lacquered wood...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
well, it was not a gold armour, it was actually gold-like steel armour coated with brass... but the King's horse in majapahit times DID have the golden Cataphract armour (look about Jayanegara), it wan't a fiction because the Trowulan museum indeed have the golden Cataphract armour....
of course, they are usually steel coated with brass, with some flexible area made of lacquered wood...
Letters of Acheh's Sultan and Sultanah:
raja yang berzirah suasa, dan berketopong suasa, dan yang bergajah bergading mas, berkumban perak, bergenta suasa, yang berantai suasa;
The king whose coat of mail is of gold alloy, and whose helmet is of gold alloy, and whose elephant has golden tusks, a frontlet of silver, bells of gold alloy, with a chain of gold alloy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gaius Septimus Severus
Kuda Tizi are maybe Malay Cataphracts, so, keeping Cataphracts will maybe, Easen the work
I am not sure about Malay Cataphracts, but I never see a Malay Cataphracts, even horse archer was rare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gaius Septimus Severus
hey, after watching a NatGeo Doc. Malaysians use Special Warriors: Silat Men to Resist Enemy Invasions maybe it will help as one Special Unit in this mod?
Silat Men were exist in Hikayat, but it rather than a military unit, it mentioned Silat Men as master of martial art that educated and trained soldier.
Mahaguru is the word for Silat Master, while the other word for Silat users are Pendekar, Perwira, Kesatria, Pahlawan etc.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
yeah, I mention that royalty have golden equipments, but as far as evidence can be prooved on more common noble soldiers, they only wears steel plate coated with brass. (seperti contoh armor jawa yang ada di museum geologi)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Well, golds, elephants and horses were the symbols of wealth for the royals and nobles. BTW, if the translation process for unit is finished, can I move on to translate Military Industrial Complex and civilian buildings?
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
proceed,
we'll have:
5 level of city, while the biggest will be named to just "important city" because of the population problem (24000 men is just a city's size in this era, maybe even it will means only "trained men" to act as sources of military units)
a) perkampungan ( vanilla village level)
b) desa kecil (vanilla town)
c) desa (vanilla large town)
d) kecamatan / equivalent (vanilla minor city)
e) kota (vanilla large city)
f) kota penting (vanilla huge city)
walls will be exspensive, and that will be only 3 level of them
a) wooden palisades
b) wooden wall
c) masonry wall
4 level of factional barracks
5 level of regional barracks
4 level of gunpowder and artillery (double as european's factional) barracks
5 level of Masjid or Church
5 level of temples, for some gods... (planned : Siwa, Wisnu, Brahma, Buddha, Kali/Nyi Roro Kidul (javanese only), Sunda Wiwitan (pajajaran only), Manjushri (south sumateran only), and perhaps nothing extra for the aceh and melaka...
3 level of european styled military academy
3 level of Turkish styled military academy
and perhaps more on the unused buildings slots (maybe we'll think about this later)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
5 level of city, while the biggest will be named to just "important city" because of the population problem (24000 men is just a city's size in this era, maybe even it will means only "trained men" to act as sources of military units)
Well, RTW engine just defined huge city like that.
a) perkampungan ( vanilla village level) : Dusun
b) desa kecil (vanilla town) : Kampung
c) desa (vanilla large town) : Desa
d) kecamatan / equivalent (vanilla minor city) : Pekan
e) kota (vanilla large city) : Kota
f) kota penting (vanilla huge city) : Bandar - the word Bandar had appeared in Hikayat Hang Tuah and Bustanul Salatin, (Acheh was called Bandar Acheh Darussalam, and Dar es-Salam {Zanzibar, Tanzania} also called Bandar)
In Hikayat, very huge city like Mecca and Istanbul was called Negeri Mekah dan Negeri Istanbul.
hmmm, agree?
a) wooden palisades : Pagar
b) wooden wall : Dinding / Dinding Kayu
c) masonry wall : Tembok / Tembok Batu
Can add 1 more?: Kota Parit (moat)
5 level of Masjid (hmmm, are they really 5 level?)
Wakaf<Musolla<Surau<Masjid<Masjid Raya / Masjid Agung
3 level of Turkish styled military academy
Pondok / Pesantren / Markaz < Madrasah < Maahad (like Maahad Baitul Makdis in Acheh)
Other buildings like law building / policy (Pondok Kawalan, Menara Tinjau, Qanun), Happiness (Sepak raga, Sabung Ayam, Pulau Perburuan [game island], Balai Gendang [music hall], Taman Penglipurlara [royal garden]), public health (Pawang [healer], Panca Persada [royal bath house]), market (gerai [trader], pasar [market], gedung [supermarket], kampung saudagar [merchant quater]), agriculture (kebun, sawah ladang, terusan), port (pengkalan, pelabuhan) etc.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
maybe I should start sketching the units lists again...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
factional barracks:
Balai Tetangga (Station of the neighborhood) < Balai Penghulu (Station of the magistrate) < Balai Temenggung (Station of the Inspector-General of Police) < Balai Pedang Laksamana (Armory of the Admiral) < Balai Pedang Istana (Armory of the Palace)
Regional barracks:
Gelanggang Silat Kampung (Muster-field of the village) < Gelanggang Prajurit (Muster-field of the soldiers) < Gelanggang Pendekar (Musterfield of the warriors) < Gelanggang Perwira (Muster-field of the heroes) < Gelanggang Istana (Muster-field of the palace)
gunpowder and artillery barracks:
Tukang Penuang Bedil (Gunsmith) < Padang Tembak (Shooting Range) < Balai Istinggar (Armory of the gun) < Pembuat Meriam (Cannon maker)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
I never seen such like Melayu Horse Armour in the museum... perhaps you allready see about them?... hmm....
well, Melayu and Javanese nobility are descendants of (ancient Sriwijayan) Saka Rulers afterall...
actually not all Javanese Royal families are descendant of Indo-Saka. Majapahit Family are descendant of Sunda Family. Sunda from Tarumanagara,Tarumanagara from Salakanagara and Salakanagara from Salankayana
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Well, some historian said Kerajaan Kedah Tua and Gangga Negara founded by Kambuja Mahajanapada royal families.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
actually not all Javanese Royal families are descendant of Indo-Saka. Majapahit Family are descendant of Sunda Family. Sunda from Tarumanagara,Tarumanagara from Salakanagara and Salakanagara from
Salankayana
but Majapahit sources claim they are direct descendants of Singosari, which in turns out paternally, Ken Arok was actually grandchild of former Raja Jenggala, which in turns -> Airlangga -> Mataram Hindu -> Dinasti Samaratungga -> Sriwijaya -> Penyerbuan Ajisaka ke Jawadwipa / Medang Kamulan (sumatera dan Jawa)....
if we look further, Aji Saka's father was named Rudrosena.... which very2 coincidental with Rudhrasena line of the Saka kingdoms in India... and Never forget that the story of ancient "javanese kingdoms long time ago" taken on place of Nagara Saka, Nagara Daha, Nagara Yina, and Nagara Sabrang (could be translated into Saka, Daha, Yuezhi?, and Sauromatae)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
but Majapahit sources claim they are direct descendants of Singosari, which in turns out paternally, Ken Arok was actually grandchild of former Raja Jenggala, which in turns -> Airlangga -> Mataram Hindu -> Dinasti Samaratungga -> Sriwijaya -> Penyerbuan Ajisaka ke Jawadwipa / Medang Kamulan (sumatera dan Jawa)....
if we look further, Aji Saka's father was named Rudrosena.... which very2 coincidental with Rudhrasena line of the Saka kingdoms in India... and Never forget that the story of ancient "javanese kingdoms long time ago" taken on place of Nagara Saka, Nagara Daha, Nagara Yina, and Nagara Sabrang (could be translated into Saka, Daha, Yuezhi?, and Sauromatae)
from the most authentic manuscript in Indonesia, Naskah Wangsakerta:
...Menurut Pustaka Rajyarajya i Bhumi Nusantara, Raden Wijaya adalah putra pasangan Rakeyan Jayadarma dan Dyah Lembu Tal. Ayahnya adalah putra Prabu Guru Darmasiksa, raja Kerajaan Sunda Galuh, sedangkan ibunya adalah putri Mahisa Campaka dari Kerajaan Singhasari. Setelah Rakeyan Jayadarma tewas diracun musuhnya, Lembu Tal pulang ke Singhasari membawa serta Wijaya. Dengan demikian, Raden Wijaya merupakan perpaduan darah Sunda dan Jawa....
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
from the most authentic manuscript in Indonesia, Naskah Wangsakerta:
...Menurut Pustaka Rajyarajya i Bhumi Nusantara, Raden Wijaya adalah putra pasangan Rakeyan Jayadarma dan Dyah Lembu Tal. Ayahnya adalah putra Prabu Guru Darmasiksa, raja Kerajaan Sunda Galuh, sedangkan ibunya adalah putri Mahisa Campaka dari Kerajaan Singhasari. Setelah Rakeyan Jayadarma tewas diracun musuhnya, Lembu Tal pulang ke Singhasari membawa serta Wijaya. Dengan demikian, Raden Wijaya merupakan perpaduan darah Sunda dan Jawa....
wait... it was bit contrary then... I post some excerpts from Babad tanah jawi
Quote:
05 Pérangan Kang Kapisan
Bab 5
Jumenengé Kartanagara ing Tumapel
(1268 - 1292)
Ratu Singasari kang Kaping V, jumeneng mekasi. Sasédané Syri Wisynuwardhana pangéran pati jumeneng Nata, ajejuluk Prabu Kartanagara.
Sang Prabu manggalih marang kawruh kagunan, lan kasusastran, lan iya manggalih marang undhaking jajahan, nanging kurang ngatos atos, lan kersa ngunjuk nganti dadi wuru.
Ana nayakaning praja aran Banyak Widhe utama Arya Wiraraja, tepung becik lan Jayakatwang, adipati ing Daha.
Satriya iku ora sungkem marang ratuné, malah wis sekuthon karo Jayakatwang, arep mbaléla.
Dumadakan ana punggawa kang matur prakara iku, nanging Sang Prabu ora menggalih, Wiraraja malah diangkat dadi adipati ana ing Madura.
Pepatihe Sang Nata aran Raganatha rumeksa banget marang ratuné, nganti sok wani ngaturi pènget marang Sang Prabu ing bab kang ora bener, nanging Sang Prabu ora rena ing galih, ora nimbangi rumeksaning patih setya iku, malah banjur milih patih liya kang bisa ngladèni karsané.
Patih wredha diundur, winisuda dadi: nayaka pradata, dadi wis ora campur karo prakara pangrèh praja.
Patih anyar senengé mung ngalem marang ratuné lan ngladosi unjuk unjukan.
Ana utusan saka ratu agung ing nagara Cina (Chubilai) dhawuh supaya Prabu Kartanagara nyalirani dhéwé utawa wakilsuwana marang nagara Cina perlu caos bekti (tahun 1289).
Sang Prabu duka banget. Bathuking Cina utusan digambari pasemon kang ora apik, nelakaké dukané Sang Prabu.
Bareng tekan ing nagara Cina patrape ratu Jawa kang mangkono iku mau njalari dukané ratu binathara ing Cina,
Ing tahun1292 ana prajurit gedhé saka ing Cina arep ngukum ing kuwanéné wong Jawa.
Wiraraja sasuwéné ana ing Madura isih ngrungok ngrungokaké apa kang kalakon ana ing Singasari, lan iya weruh uga yèn ing wektu iku prajurit Singasari dilurugaké menyang Sumatra.
Wiraraja ngajani Jayakatwang akon nangguh mbedhah Singasari, mumpung nagara lagi kesisan bala.
Jayakatwang ngleksanani, lan Singasari kelakon bedhah. Ratu lan patihé katungkep ing mungsuh isih terus unjuk unjukan baé (wuru), mulané ora rekasa pinurih sédané.
Radèn Wijaya, wayahè Narasinga, putrané panjenengan makuto Daha, nuli umangsah ngetog kaprawiran mbelani nagara lan ratuné, nanging wis kaslepek karoban wong Daha, mulané banjur kepeksa ngoncati, mung kari nggawa bala 12, genti genti nggéndhong Sang Putri garwané Radèn Wijaya, putrané Prabu Kartanagara.
Lampahè Radèn Wijaya sasentanané nusup angayam alas.
Kalebu wilangan 12 iku ana satriyané loro, putrané Wiraraja, duwè atur marang Gustiné supaya ngungsi menyang Madura.
Sang Pangéran mauné ora karsa, nanging suwé suwé nuruti. Ana ing Madura ditampani kalawan becik.
Rembugé Wiraraja, Radèn Wijaya diaturi suwita menyang Daha. Wiraraja sing arep nglantaraké.
Yèn wis kelakon suwita Radèn Wijaya diaturi nyetitèkaké para punggawa ing Daha, sapa sing kendel utawa jirih, tuhu utawa lamis.
Yèn wis antara suwé diaturi nyuwun tanah tanah Trik, dibabada banjur dienggonana.
Radèn Wijaya nurut ing pitudhuh, lan iya kelakon suwita ing Daha.
Kacarita pasuwitané kanggep banget, amarga saka pinteré nuju karsa, lan saka pinteré olah gegaman; wong sa Daha ora ana sing bisa ngalahaké.
Kabèh piwulangé Wiraraja ditindakaké, dilalah Sang Prabu teka dhangan baé, malah bareng tanah Trik wis dibabad, Radèn Wijaya nyuwun manggon ing kono iya dililani.
Kacarita nalika babade tanah Trik mau, ana wong kang methik woh maja dipangan, nanging rasané pait. Awit saka iku désa ingkono mau banjur dijenengaké Majapait.
Bareng Radèn Wijaya wis manggon ing Majapait, rumangsa wis wayahè tata tata males ukum, ngrusak kraton Daha, ananging Wiraraja akon sabar dhisik, awit isih ngenteni prajurit saka nagara Cina kang arep ngukum wong Singasari.
Karepe Wiraraja arep ngréwangi Cina baé dhisik, besuké arep mbalik mungsuh Cina. Wiraraja banjur boyong sakulawargané lan saprajurite menyang Majapait ngumpul dadi siji karo Radèn Wijaya.
Raden wijaya was the son of Daha (jenggala) line
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
wait... it was bit contrary then... I post some excerpts from Babad tanah jawi
Raden wijaya was the son of Daha (jenggala) line
I prefer Wangsakerta. its written by several historian from different background. and from almighty Wiki:
Quote:
...Antara lain ahli sejarah HJ de Graaf. Menurutnya apa yang tertulis di Babad Tanah Jawi dapat dipercaya, khususnya cerita tentang peristiwa tahun 1600 sampai zaman Kartasura di abad 18. Demikian juga dengan peristiwa sejak tahun 1580 yang mengulas tentang kerajaan Pajang. Namun, untuk cerita selepas era itu, de Graaf tidak berani menyebutnya sebagai data sejarah: terlalu sarat campuran mitologi, kosmologi, dan dongeng...
while, Wangsakerta Manuscript
Quote:
terlalu historis, isinya tidak umum sebagaimana naskah-naskah sezaman (babad, kidung, tambo, hikayat);
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gaius Septimus Severus
Not rlly....
But, I think not. Javanese and Malay are too lowly to have heavy armor. And the large Euro Horses, they don't fit in
But about the Silatmen, they do exist.
Back to the cataphracts:
It's a Chronicle, and
"Di lebay-lebayin" namanya juga kisah, fiktif belaka. Masa armor emas, gila aja kalee
its not gold, gold give less protection compared to steel. it was steel coated with gold.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
5 levels of temple:
I found that these words are for temple: Rumah Berhala, Kuil, Candi, Wat (Siamese style Buddhist Temple), Huna, Pura, tokong, Kelenteng, while pagoda is not originally Malay word.
5 levels of church:
I suggest that we translated these words into Portuguese and Dutch: Monastery, Abbey, Chapel, Church, Cathedral
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
I prefer Wangsakerta. its written by several historian from different background. and from almighty Wiki:
while, Wangsakerta Manuscript
hmm.... so, let's not talk about Raden Wijaya's true paternity then :grin: ... I'm affraid if we discuss about this to much, we'll reveal ancient conspiracy theory and twisted fate of the kingdoms :wink:
( even maybe he's an illegitimate child or love child :oops: :wall: )
Back to the nobility then, it was clearly written that Javanese Nobility have some major noble houses, and Raden wijaya are from makuto daha (house of Daha - pretty much Jenggala and Singosari nobles comes from here, including Ken Arok), and his mother was from Singosari lines too.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
Sea Warriors: (using the romano_british faction's unique traits in BI!)
12. Bajak Laut / Sea Warriors (yes, the mallacan straits, sumatran coasts, nusa tenggara, timor, and mollucan spice islands are infested with linked and mutually supporting pirate colonies and sea peoples)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
4. As well as romano_british as the Sea Warriors faction, they are the locusts of the sea, and able to mount some serious challanges on lands too... they aren't horde factions, but couldn't be eliminated entirely, and can survive without cities.
Are they in this mod? Maybe as faction, maybe as regional troops, maybe as mercenary...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
Are they in this mod? Maybe as faction, maybe as regional troops, maybe as mercenary...
placeholder for "active rebel" faction, who basically share same rooster as the slave faction
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
placeholder for "active rebel" faction, who basically share same rooster as the slave faction
So 1 faction slot is given to them? OK agreed.
Well, in history, Melaka used them as army. Can they be at least 1 unit, as low class unit, namely Orang Laut / Bajak Laut, and using blowpipe + dart or javelin? hired at least as mercenary...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
So 1 faction slot is given to them? OK agreed.
Well, in history, Melaka used them as army. Can they be at least 1 unit, as low class unit, namely Orang Laut / Bajak Laut, and using blowpipe + dart or javelin? hired at least as mercenary...
javelin yes, blowpipe is not, such missiles are impractical in large scale battles
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
So 1 faction slot is given to them? OK agreed.
Well, in history, Melaka used them as army. Can they be at least 1 unit, as low class unit, namely Orang Laut / Bajak Laut, and using blowpipe + dart or javelin? hired at least as mercenary...
nah, RTW does'nt have blowpipe operations................
Javelins work
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Well, javelin also OK. Bajak Laut also used javelin. Could not ask for more.
ADD: For level of church, I translated these words based on Portuguese Christian structures in Goa, India.
Igreja (Church) < Igreja e Convento (Church and monastery) < Catedral (cathedral) < Basilica (Basilica)
well, I only get 4 levels. Can we add Capela (Chapel) as the smallest one?
ADD: I want to review the translation for Mosque
Musolla (Prayer Enclosure) < Surau (Small Mosque) < Masjid (Mosque) < Masjid Jamek (Congregational Mosque) < Masjid Raya / Masjid Agung (Grand Mosque)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
Well, javelin also OK. Bajak Laut also used javelin. Could not ask for more.
ADD: For level of church, I translated these words based on Portuguese Christian structures in Goa, India.
Igreja (Church) < Igreja e Convento (Church and monastery) < Catedral (cathedral) < Basilica (Basilica)
well, I only get 4 levels. Can we add Capela (Chapel) as the smallest one?
ADD: I want to review the translation for Mosque
Musolla (Prayer Enclosure) < Surau (Small Mosque) < Masjid (Mosque) < Masjid Jamek (Congregational Mosque) < Masjid Raya / Masjid Agung (Grand Mosque)
hmm, I think the religious constructins should be going this way (CW forget it :grin:) , don't forget that building namings are cultural thingies, and we'll use cultural names of their own.
- Europeans : Capable to build 5 level of Church, and 4 level of Mosque and Temples, while the Mosque and Temples are ONLY meant to quell up rebelions and public orders, as their FM's are trait protected, so heir FM will remain Christian all the time (we don't hope to see Haji Sander Erades don't you :clown:)
- Javanese & Sundanese : capable to build 5 level of All religious constructions (the sundanese however, may retain faction specific name), their FM will probably convert if placed in regons with another religious structures. You must remember that once time, the Southern Javanese rural areas are predominantly Christian (and now, they still predominantly christian in several rural areas of northern Yogyakarta and southwest central java - but most of them choose to fled to the Netherland when Indonesia was Independent). You also must notice that put aside eastern Indonesian area and North Sumatera Bataks, the most Influential Christianized nobles are South Javanese
- Melayu (Aceh and melaka) - 5 level of Mosque. 4 level of temple, and receive penalty from churches (the player's FM could be converted to christianity if he was exposed too long to christianity (the AI FM will be trait protected), this was done to emulate that Melayu culture was predominantly Islamic, and didn't have significant numbers of Christian influence.
- Melayu-Sumatera / South Sumateran (Sriwijaya & Palembang), 5 level of mosques, 5 level of temples, and 4 level of Church... well, that was almost the same reasons.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
...(we don't hope to see Haji Sander Erades don't you )
Haji=King
why not?:clown:
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
Haji=King
why not?:clown:
Let's ask Skullheadhq if he want to become a muslim :clown: well, religious sentiments aside, we could see that no Portuguese or Dutch muslim convert took the high office in this period. On the contrary, Christianized nobles do exist in javanese, bataks, and sriwijayan area
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
hehehe... just language jokes. Haji mean King
example: Haji Pakuan = King of Pakuan
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sonic
hmm, I think the religious constructins should be going this way (CW forget it :grin:) , don't forget that building namings are cultural thingies, and we'll use cultural names of their own.
That's make my job harder coz I have to translate church and temple names into Malay...:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :furious3:
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
yeah, but it was the language of later times, right :beam:
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
That's make my job harder coz I have to translate church and temple names into Malay...:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :furious3:
Melayu GOT NO CHURCH :wink:
maybe you should add some names for "generic" temples coz we will use Temple of Brahma, Wisnu, Siwa, Buddha, Kali, etc
EDIT : or maybe we could include "Atheist" traits that will made someone didn't have any religion? heheheh
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
so we have different name for each culture?
darn, I should go buy some dictionary...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Well, for temple:
Pura Dewa [Siva] (Shrine of Lord [Siva])< Candi Dewa [Siva] (Temple of Lord [Siva]) < Candi Gedang Dewa [Siva] (Grand Temple of Lord [Siva]) < Candi Agung Dewa [Siva] (Great Temple of Lord [Siva]) < Candi Gunung Dewa [Siva] (Temple mountain of lord [Siva])
For other god, repleace Siva with Brahma, Vishnu, etc
Well, classical Malay for Siva was Sang Sinuhun Wangsa Agung Batara Guru, Brahma (Ganeshka Putra Sri Batara Narada), and Vishnu (Batara Vishnu)
For Buddha: Some modification. I'll post later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
so we have different name for each culture?
darn, I should go buy some dictionary...
Cannot use Google translator? you are very fond of it....:laugh4:
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
...
Cannot use Google translator? you are very fond of it....:laugh4:
if Sunda Kuna included, I'll use it!
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
lol, sunda kuna translator....
time to back to my work island... the ship will come soon enough...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
hehehe... just language jokes. Haji mean King
example: Haji Pakuan = King of Pakuan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sonic
yeah, but it was the language of later times, right :beam:
Well, Srivijaya's inscription of Telaga Batu also stated Haji as king...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
Well, Srivijaya's inscription of Telaga Batu also stated Haji as king...
king of Islam domonated areas, to be precise
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sonic
Melayu GOT NO CHURCH :wink:
maybe you should add some names for "generic" temples coz we will use Temple of Brahma, Wisnu, Siwa, Buddha, Kali, etc
EDIT : or maybe we could include "Atheist" traits that will made someone didn't have any religion? heheheh
I believe the "Rational Beliefs" trait is the closest to it (at least in EB) but it would be good to have an "Atheist" trait... -1 influence, +3 management, +1 command, +3 command when attacking theists, +5 Law, -3 Unrest, +3 morality of troops, -1 morale of troops
~Jirisys (too many effects? think again!:clown:)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jirisys
I believe the "Rational Beliefs" trait is the closest to it (at least in EB) but it would be good to have an "Atheist" trait... -1 influence, +3 management, +1 command, +3 command when attacking theists, +5 Law, -3 Unrest, -1 morality of troops
~Jirisys (too many effects? think again!:clown:)
your troops will have much time enjoying themself in war-rape then :grin:
EDIT: I suggest the Atheist traits to have -1 infulence, +2 management, -1 morale to troops, +1 command against native factions
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Strategos Lykos
Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) = Tentera Laot
Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak) = Hulubalang Laot
I have found the word for Melayu-Sriwj Mariners (archer-2handed tombak) in Sejarah Melayu = Langlang Laut (Shore patrolmen), while for Malakan Elite Mariners (javelin-kapak), just named it Hulubalang
ADD: Acheh called themselves as Kesultanan Aceh Darussalam or Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam or Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam?
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
your troops will have much time enjoying themself in war-rape then :grin:
EDIT: I suggest the Atheist traits to have -1 infulence, +2 management, -1 morale to troops, +1 command against native factions
LMFAO it was +3 morality (if on MTW it should be -3 Dread) and -1 morale :grin:
~Jirisys (that has a new meaning for "taking on" your enemy)
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
after reasearching for a while, here is building translation for Sunda.
City
a) *Dusun ( vanilla village level)
b) Kampung (vanilla town)
c) Lembur (vanilla large town)
d) Dayeuh (vanilla minor city)
e) Dayeuhan (vanilla large city)
f) Nagara (vanilla huge city) it also means polis
walls.
a) wooden palisades=>*Pager
b) wooden wall=>Kuta
c) masonry wall=>*Témbok
Factional Barracks=Ksatryaan
Regional Barrack=Ksatryaan Dayeuh
European Barrack=Kasatryaan Éropah
Masjid or Church; will be named by present Sundanese and loanword. no archaic words for it.
Mosque:
Musola>Masigit Leutik>Masigit>Masigit Ageung
Church:
Kapél>Goléjra Leutik>Goléjra>Goléjra Ageung
temples:
Kabuyutan Jati Sunda
hmm... am I missing something?
*) Temporary word till I found something more archaic.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
intifadanyz
ADD: Acheh called themselves as Kesultanan Aceh Darussalam or Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam or Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam?
Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
Keurajeun Acèh Darussalam
I vote for ya... for the usage in this mod...
ADD: For Melaka FM that existed in 1511, I have been post that at discussion thread.
For nobles:
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plutoboyz
after reasearching for a while, here is building translation for Sunda.
City
a) Kampung ( vanilla village level)
b) Lembur (vanilla town)
c) Kitha (vanilla large town)
d) Dayeuh (vanilla minor city)
e) Dayeuhan (vanilla large city)
f) Nagara (vanilla huge city) it also means polis
walls.
a) wooden palisades=>*Pager
b) wooden wall=>*Témbok
c) masonry wall=>Kuta
Factional Barracks=Ksatryaan
Regional Barrack=Ksatryaan Dayeuh
European Barrack=Kasatryaan Éropah
Masjid or Church; will be named by present Sundanese and loanword. no archaic words for it.
Mosque:
Musola>Masigit Leutik>Masigit>Masigit Ageung
Church:
Kapél>Goléjra Leutik>Goléjra>Goléjra Ageung
temples:
Kabuyutan Jati Sunda(law)
hmm... am I missing something?
*) Temporary word till I found something more archaic.
Edited
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
I want to ask Tosa to made a subforum for our mod...
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cute Wolf
I want to ask Tosa to made a subforum for our mod...
yay! great.
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Haven't been here for some time, I see you did every symbol in my VOC style :D
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion
Kabare? Wes mangan?
For European barrack (4 levels): Logically they will used classical loanwords of Europe in Malay:
Sekolah Soldadu Kapitan (Soldier school of the captain) < Sekolah Soldadu Jenderal (Soldier school of the General) < Sekolah Soldadu Gabernador (soldier school of the governor) < sekolah Soldadu Wizurai (Soldier school of the viceroy)
I suggest the word sekolah (school) because it is the loanword from Portuguesa: Escola (and definitely the loanword from Greek: Schole). It have been used in Malay literature such as Tuhfat an-Nafis, Syair Sultan Abu Bakar, Syair Sultan Lingga.
And the word soldadu, kapitan, gabernador (see spelling, not gabenor, gabenor is new spelling) jenderal (see spelling, not jeneral, jeneral is new spelling)and wizurai are the loanwords used extensively in Hikayat.
ADD: Buddhist temple:
Stupa Buddha (Buddhist stupa) < Candi Buddha (Buddhist temple) < Candi Buddha dan Vihara (Buddhist temple and monastery) < Candi Maha Buddha dan Vihara (Temple of great Buddha and monastery) < Candi Maha Buddha dan Vihara Agung (Temple of great Buddha and Grand monastery)
ADD: Signature for all faction have been finished and attached at Nusantara Total War group. Feel free to use whichever you all like...and comments are welcomed..
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Re: Nusantara Total War : Portugese Invasion