Kylo Ren's Banana Time Mafia

[Sunbae]

oh god get the multiquotes away ahhhh

[Sunbae]

alrighty, i am here

gonna re read the game real quick (and especially cathc up to d2)


i read sunbae latest posts and honestly i dont think i will be able to find him if he is a wolf lmao

visor otoh

ladd GOAT

[Sunbae]

Again though. That sequence of

its ladd/maple" -> let me do my due diligence and reread -> uh ladd is the most villagery person in the game??? and rask is a villager too? i guess its maple/ender or just one wolf or something -> harp on ender killing jan repeatedly

did a lot of work and i think if you read through visors posts at that time he was a lil shook too! maybe just wishful thinking but i see it!

[Sunbae]

im out for the night, hope to wake up to a win

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 5 - Votes from post 1197 through 1234

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
1	Sunbae	EnderWiggin (15)
1	EnderWiggin	Sunbae (16)
1	Not Voting	Lissa (4)

Votes are locked.

[Lissa]

alright, laid on the floor thinking about this game for a while, now time for a reread of the game

i haven't really slept today so i don't know how much i feel like voting before sleeping but i also might just do it, tbd!

[Lissa]

Preliminarily, the things I thought about on the floor:
-A question I wanted to answer was: What are the strong reasons for Ender to be a villager. I do think that Ender has posted well in this game, to be clear. (in theory this exercise was: what are the reasons ender is a villa, reasons ender is a wolf, reasons sunbae is a villa, reasons sunbae is a wolf but I think I sorta half dozed off and lost my train of thought a bit. I think I've delved pretty extensively into both sides of this for sunbae though and I just.. realized I felt like I was really lacking in doing so on the ender side of things? And sorta solving both more off sunbae than anything, yesterday, to some extent.)
-Extending from that, I thought about: the weird way Visor played around Ender, asking half the thread what they thought of him but never doing anything with it other than... briefly trying to tie Ladd to him as w/w. On some level this stuff can kinda go either way. But also sticks out to me that Jan hard townread him/shielded him as well. And again, Visor literally never tried to actually kill Ender in any even close to meaningful way at all when there was plenty of alleys for trying to do so I would say.
-I'm hesitant to weight this one a lot cause it's like... inherently speculative and the last time I based a decision on mech spec, the result was "I was wrong and almost singlehandedly lost a game if not for some weird specific mechanical circumstances that pulled it back" although that mech spec was also a lot more ESOTERIC and jank, but anyway, intuitively, it makes a lot of sense to me that wolves have some sort of bomb info or protection role. Some sort of role that interacts with the setup. Like the core role of this setup is clearly that neutral role, and that's where a lot of the other mechanical stuff in the setup springs from and what all of it interacts with. Waza had the village role interacting with it. To circle back to my point, the living wolf is probably a fairly relevant wolf PR. With four bombs out, making nightkills is soooorta a fuckin minefield for wolves that it's hard to imagine there's zero counterplay for.
-To come back to the relevant point moreso, Visor and Jan distinctively avoiding pushing ender and shielding him respectively really sticks out through this lens as fitting with that.
-I do want to really pay attention to this as I reread the game, there's some later Visor stuff I also want to talk about and I also need to pay closer attention to how both treated Sunbae.

[Lissa]

Also thought some about the Jan parting gift thing, and how it fit into those mechanical lines, and how basically, using that is choosing to give village that extra kill right then, instead of letting whatever villager has the n3 likely use it otherwise then and likely die unless they're super, super clear. They don't know it's me! I sorta tried to parse that for a while. But if that parting gift turned out to be someone super villagery or something (which it was, but the Result in this case is sorta beside the point) then having Jan not hold and be elimed the next day there is... basically, the wolves let us kill maple for free instead of only being able to use that "free" kill on a specific villager (they didnt know who, but it was me. coulda been maple. i think all the other options possible made doing this significantly worse for them)

So like you want to get HIGH upside out of doing that, surely. I mean if you don't do it... Jan dies the next day, you go to f6, 2:4 or 2:3 depending on what happens with the other gift. Unless gift is on exactly maple and she's the free kill, don't you (you as in wolves) just kinda fucking win that? I mean. Lmao like..

[Lissa]

but anyway, going into n1, if 11 alive/3 wolves, there's a real world that hitting a poisonous bomb is literally 50/50 lol. Bit of an extreme end, but seems cursed af if no counterplay at all.

Could also explain stuff like cape kill over .. well I was gonna say me and rask, but idk that rask made that much sense yet there actually, nvm. Obviously I lived cause visor was successfully pocketing the shit out of me. When we talked about this before it was visor saying why not me or visor, lmao. Anyway. Also sorta notable that if they buried the gift and had wolf ender claim it, they basically had to decide the nightkill before EoD.

But, reading the game. Highly focused, as you can see.


Very funny if like.. village Sunbae dropped that Jan strong town p2 read and multiple wolves were both like ??? cause they knew jan was a wolf. Notably, visor and ender seem to be the only reactions.

Cape/Rask/Sunbae/Waza likely has 0 wolves. Vanta maybe there too but reserving judgement.

I am not going to snap read Ladd because I have no idea if this is opportunistic wolfy Ladd or if it's towny Ladd who wolfreads me randomly. (Last game alone is an example of Ladd calling me "Second wolfiest poster in this thread" while we were v/v)

Visor is visoring tho I'm a lil sketched at their incessant poking of people to read me. Lightest shade of red.

Jan feels wolfy. Maple feels wolfy. Lissa doesn't feel.

I don't know if I forgot someone but I think those are my reads atm.

from an ender W standpoint this is a VERY accurate list (well either way really but especially so). idk how much i think that means in any direction really, nor did he exactly go anywhere with the actually accurate parts on d1

vote: Jan

Just vibes mostly. I went over all his posts and didn't really see anything that said town. One post in particular about voting a villager so as to keep Knights around longer, as I guess his stumpness is over as soon as we ax a wolf. Kind of sounded like he thought he could make that happen. Anyway it pinged me.

Also I took an antihistamine and fell asleep at my computer which is not helping my mental sharpness at all.

Thought Ender's beginning series of posts was...strange? It seemed to me that it sounded like he had read the thread, but then was reacting to things as if he had not read the thread (like not knowing that Knights had flipped, and there was something else that now escapes my woozy brain). He looked better to me later though.

Of the current vote leaders. logic hasn't said a lot but also only a few posts, while Lissa has a lot of posts but I can't remember her saying a lot in all those posts. So if I had to go with one of those two it'd be Lissa.

Okay let me amend that, I'm reading everybody's posts but I did go back in particular to look at Jan's. Not the only one.

I could switch to Visor, that weird push about me being w/w with Cape because I get mizzled a lot seemed like a stretch and also seemed like a way to say I'm an easy mizzle so why not? It also pushed me into thinking Cape probably v.

if ender is a wolf, holy moly, no wonder vanta died

really regardless of that lol

[EnderWiggin]

In absolutely classic fashion I've got badly sick and will no longer be disappearing to see Beetlejuice stageplay tomorrow. I'm gonna try to sleep and actually have a working brain.

Once again irl conspires against me for ww lol.

[EnderWiggin]

Honestly if I get hammered for fitting being "Wolf anti-poison PR" I'll probably at least laugh over it.

[EnderWiggin]

I will say that I feel like something I should point out is how Sunbae's arguments keep returning to the "Look at how good my turnaround was!" should be wolfy in a vacuum because like, I can fake progression as wolf and Sunbae is a much better player than me.

And then quoting all the people who called him town while calling them goats, I can do that too and there's several people who did that.

I want to point out Knights who called Jan as wolfy correctly as treestump also dipped a sus down on Sunbae. Kinda d1 so less relevant but like, my point is that quoting people calling you town or your cross wolf is easy and actually means nothing but Sunbae is acting like it's irrefutable proof because audacity and confident statements sway people because it sounds nice.

[EnderWiggin]

That's all for me as I go to try and cough up my organs in my bed.

[Lissa]

i don't know how you go from saying enders posts are "I am ngl when i first read his posts i thought he seemed fine

But then i re read them and wow they are so wolfy lmao"

and then the second spurt is fine and really?

i don't really understand how you changed your mind here

at the risk of making another w/w read.....

the ladd/ender w/w post from visor

I am still ~kinda confident Rask is town. Confidence shaken but not stirred.

Vote: Visor

Honestly don't have a super big scumread on Visor myself, but given their still as-of-yet unexplained obsession with getting people to react to me on D1 and Rask+Waza being here I'm willing to entertain it for now while I stare balefully in Maple's general direction.

Actually Visor's obsession with poking people in my direction might just be a strong wolftell. There was the other game where they wolfed recently and we D1'd em where they had this aggro on me for 0 reason.

ok i want to see where this, like, actually goes

Okay nevermind this isn't as similar as I wanted it to be. Nyeh.

well

Also Lissa might be my second biggest sus after re-reading eod.

There's a lot of wishywashy ending in a lame vote on Logic. And the 'agonising' over who to sus doesn't really feel like it's going anywhere. Maybe will feel diff after they enter D2 but this is worthy of a

the stuff described here didn't. really even happen psure

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 2 - Votes from post 370 through 427

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
3	Visor	EnderWiggin (6), Raskolnikov (9), waza (1)
2	Raskolnikov	Sunbae (13), Visor (14)
6	Not Voting	Cape90 (9), Jan (0), Lissa (0), Logic (0), Maple (3), ladd (1)

I had Jan as wolfy. They kinda misrepped me in a "defend Maple but not directly" way that kinda felt paired but idk if I'm reading too much into it.

It was this whole "How does Ender do this to Maple?!??!?"

thing is, ender still hasn't DONE anything with this read really

not even a vote

Ladd is in the weird position where I think he could be a wolf, but there is no point in pushing him today, when he is mostly gone for this phase.
The n1 kill makes me think Ladd will be alive for a while, and we can talk about him when he is back.

I agree with waza that sunbae might be someone to look at if you are a villager (or rather if rask/you is v/v).
I don't have a strong read on you, but I rarely read you these days. You either find a wolf and die at night or don't find a wolf and die during the day.

I don't think this game has a lot of "counter culture" simply because most people could still be wolves and reads are fairly soft.

Why only one in Ladd ender

What do you make of ladds switch off from ender

visor bringing up ladd/ender, again

(he did kinda soft drop it after)

Vote: Unvote

I have had a day. Idk how much time I'll have to properly read leading up to EOD. But with this I think I'm more okay with Jan or Lissa dying over Visor now.

Visor has really talked about wanting to read Ender but then like not reading ender like twice today, in the second post being like "Ender is tomorrow's problem"

ok i had to go back and find this post, which is probably about my cue to go to bed

i don't disagree with this

ladds reaction to my callout of his ender posts was also just very much a walterwhiteyougotme.gif too (not in a bad way, just that he was like yeah, fair)

it is hard for me to wrap my head around some of the play pattern though - ladd saying what he did in such a strong manner made me thought oh he is going to have seen what i saw

and then he never did and reversed the read for what seems like lacklustre reasoning for such strong word choices in his original push there

but then why do that in the frst place if w/w right? like is your goal to have some sort weird theatre, but then you back down anyway afterwards

i think i am coming around to it being too sloppy to be w/w or at least not planned interactions in that way

i need to reread enders posts re me but i am quite bad at accurately processing responses to me like those so im just gonna put that off till tomorrow lol

i dont know what to make of rask backing off on me a bit - kind of like a kid with his hand in the cookie jar when mum catches him lol

like i want to be like yes this is villagery because you've come to a correct read in a higher stake situation but the thread situation for rask has noticeably turned for the worst and therefore tis possible he also noticed that and saw that he had to back off and change direction for the time being

sometimes i wish i could crush sentimentality lmao

tomorrows problem!

heres the main visor punts on ender, post

I completely dozed off while trying to catch up lolme.

Vote: Lissa

mm i do think visor's posts re waza here feel more directed at /killing waza/ than protecting sunbae

i think ender just dropped that vote on me and left? i know he talked about it a bit later/the next day rather, i'll get to it

4/2 felt boring 4/3 might be more exciting idk.

oh it was here, is this literally it

(he did make more posts but they weren't really about where he was voting or why or about options or anything)

despite having correct multiple wolfreads, ender hasnt really tried to kill the more viable of them to actually die (jan) at all and is ending day on a villager when his read on me was probably the thinnest/limpest reason out of his wolfreads

and he just leaves his vote on me with only the explanation of basically, making interesting wagons when 1. i am there actively posting and people are generally reading my posting as villagery and, well, it is 2. the wagon formation he's describing has gone away/changed

If we don't kill Jan and I don't really want to kill lissa

I will accept maple ender or waza

this is just lip service, ender was never dying there lol



i about need to go to bed i think, so gonna finish reading/vote after i sleep, sorry yall

i think its obviously pretty clear what way i am heavily leaning but i do want to finish rereading before i commit

[Lissa]

In absolutely classic fashion I've got badly sick and will no longer be disappearing to see Beetlejuice stageplay tomorrow. I'm gonna try to sleep and actually have a working brain.

Once again irl conspires against me for ww lol.

unfortunate, feel better soon friendo

[Sunbae]

hope you feel better ender

[Sunbae]

It is true that I'm harping on the same things but that's because I believe those are the main keys that get to the correct answer.

1. I believe my day 3 and day 4 is a clear cut case of a villager who just got a good chunk of information sorting through the game and changing their world view based on it. You can also see that it's not just a 180 out of nowhere but instead is someone taking in new information, adjusting some reads based on it, trying to fit those in with the previous strong reads, realizing it's hard for those to all exist, work through the possibilities required for those to all exist, decide they are unlikely, and then sorting through things again giving more weight to the new information and letting go of the earlier held beliefs. I had my strong Visor v read, realized that Ladd and Rask are likely villagers based on the new information of cape/waza/jan deaths, tried to find the worlds where visor/ladd/rask were all v such as lissa/ender wolves or maple/ender wolves, and then eventually came to the conclusion - with help of listening to my strong villager read of ladd calling lissa v and dead villagers cape/waza calling lissa v - that lissa was not the solution. So I landed on Maple/Ender on day 3 and when Maple flipped V and rask died V I went through the game again and determined the wolves were likely Visor and Ender evident by my voting Visor and telling Ladd I was snapping Ender the next day. It is my belief that this is just not something a wolf can replicate. Pieces of it? Sure. The entirety of the process laid out in order? No.


2. Jan giving a gun to a villager when all the wolves need is for maple to be chopped at any point for the win otherwise is just never happening. I sniffed it out as soon as it happened, latched onto it, and just never shut up about it. I have a bunch of posts talking about it because it never made sense to me. If the wolves are me/jan/visor then all we need is one chop out of maple, ender, or rask in that game state (ever! not just the next day! we can chop jan and then maple and win!) and giving the village an extra kill makes zero sense for us. Once you confirmed that you could holster it I latched on harder because I thought "why wouldnt they just give it to a wolf and not shoot, idk" initially but knowing they didnt have to submit at all made it clear to me. It was a major factor of the majority of my solving from that point. Maple/Ender. Lissa/Ender. Visor/Ender. It all circled around that and even at this point with all the talking about it there has still been no explanation that makes sense for why Jan would give a gun to a villager. There are plenty of reasons you'd give one to a wolf though if you think it will make ender look good while visor has two people pocketed and you can cruise to a maple into me/ladd/rask chop. It also makes no sense for Jan to give the gun to a villager who was suspecting him, which Ender said he was doing.


I have hammered these two things over and over again yesterday/today because I think they prove that both I am a villager and that Ender is a wolf respectively.

[Lissa]

as somewhat of a mechanical aside it did occur to me just now that there is a possible upside of giving it to a villager, the possibility of a poison bomb, though that does have less value if it's not on a clear and a wolf is hit in the f7 and a villager can use the item and die but obv poison is possible and whatever its just a bunch of speculative layers

also worth remembering the odds of a bomb being hit by jan (which he did) so he could (and would) have been poisoned anyway

a villager getting poisoned and not jan makes for a mylo but its a pretty specific combo

still feels higher upside to just holster and take the consistent normal mylo, though i guess since jan can get poisoned it isnt actually

meh feels like a bunch of kinda levels

will say bury and claim the shot is the most variance reducing choice, even if jans a bomb you can claim antidote in theory prob

will finish rereading soon just a sort of half awake thought i didnt rly wanna forget even tho idk if it gets me anywhere

it feels like a lot of levels re the odds the wolves played mechanically

[Lissa]

as somewhat of a mechanical aside it did occur to me just now that there is a possible upside of giving it to a villager, the possibility of a poison bomb, though that does have less value if it's not on a clear and a wolf is hit in the f7 and a villager can use the item and die but obv poison is possible and whatever its just a bunch of speculative layers

also worth remembering the odds of a bomb being hit by jan (which he did) so he could (and would) have been poisoned anyway

a villager getting poisoned and not jan makes for a mylo but its a pretty specific combo

still feels higher upside to just holster and take the consistent normal mylo, though i guess since jan can get poisoned it isnt actually

meh feels like a bunch of kinda levels

will say bury and claim the shot is the most variance reducing choice, even if jans a bomb you can claim antidote in theory prob

will finish rereading soon just a sort of half awake thought i didnt rly wanna forget even tho idk if it gets me anywhere

it feels like a lot of levels re the odds the wolves played mechanically

third sentence makes no sense nvm that bit lmao jans dead that world

but 2:5 but really 2:4 if someones poisoned but

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 5 - Votes from post 1197 through 1249

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
1	Sunbae	EnderWiggin (19)
1	EnderWiggin	Sunbae (18)
1	Not Voting	Lissa (12)

Votes are locked.

[Lissa]

every time i look at eod2 again i get sad i didn't save waza lol

[Lissa]

to be clear

you shot him with the parting gift?

you're not a vig or anything?

mmmmmm

I'm the omegatrackervig9000 with extra sauce and several sides of garlic aioli.

Yes I shot Jan with the gun they handed me. Tbh I'm not at all sure why they gave me the gun in the first place.

what did he talk about in the chat?

Sparknotes was like:
We talked about EOD (Jan's "theory" was that Waza was a wolf-pushed EOD vote. Pointed towards you/Lissa. I had a debate about how I thought waza is a riskier save if you were going to commit to saving Lissa. It didn't really go anywhere.)
Jan tried to pitch the point that they had correctly been reading me as town even as everyone was stopping their townreads as a reason for them being town. (Which I'll be honest was like 75% of what convinced me I needed to shoot em lol)
I tried to get them to talk about Maple (Which they kinda did? But I was unimpressed and they refused to elaborate on why they didn't find the heavy omgus-y style as potentially wolfy when Maple did basically the same thing - aka "I'm only active when people poke me and I omgus real quick to make people not be super willing to push there easily." - in the last game they wolfed.)
Then they did the whole "I'm fine dying if you can't find me. Good luck." and then didn't respond to anything further after that.

to sort of break down the mechanical paths for myself
-give to a villager you kill, doesn't matter if you're a bomb and probably doesn't matter if they're a bomb. they kill you. both die, nobody poisoned, ender wolf claims kill (2:5 no poisons)
-give to a villager you don't kill (ender). matters if you're a bomb, doesn't matter if they're a bomb, probably doesn't matter if your kill target's a bomb. they kill you. you die, your killtarget dies, the villager might be poisoned. the villager claims the kill (2:5 may or may not have a poison/be mylo, janky mylo with other parting out there so village gets effectively an extra miskill still IF they hit this day, which is reasonable to expect to not happen since maple should die, unless she has the parting and people are willing to move for it)
-give to a wolf (ender). they kill you. matters if you're a bomb. doesn't matter if they're a bomb or if your kill target is a bomb. strictly worse than burying. (2:5 unless poison which could be effective 1:5)
-holster (didn't happen). doesn't matter if you're a bomb, matters if your killtarget is a bomb. (3:5 may or may not have a poison/be mylo. if poison, jan outed by it. otherwise, probably jan lim -> maple mislim. if no poison, the other parting gift is a free extra kill on a villager if this day is a hit; could be a wide range of benefit for the village. if maple has parting, actually kinda spicy for wolves maybe.)

didn't really tell me a whole lot further i just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something, really.

Ender: i've talked earlier about the lines regarding w/v re shooting jan and i am doing my best generally to ignore it at this point because it is a lot of WIFOM. i think his entry d1 was poor and was (to use lazy terminology) a kind of wolfy catchup. i don't mind him being focused on me d2, i get it, if someone is pushing you like that and they're wrong (or at least you have to affect that they are wrong) it makes sense, especially with some of his lines using the kind of emotive language that felt like actual frustration in some parts towards me. he has been hard to disentangle from ladd because of how ladd handled him but i think i agree with the points sunbae made yesterday and that it is a sloppy play if w/w, but if nobody has the time, sloppy plays are sometimes all that results. regardless, i think he posted well at sod (and then not at all apparently iirc?) and answered my questions in a quick enough fashion that i have some pause here. theres a lot of thoughts about potential lines re wolf/villa. i can see the potential gambit (there's a line where wolves are something like (ladd/maple) and ender where nobody has any time and they are just doing a gambit to win). in isolation i still don't like his d1 posts, his posts about maple are okay i guess. i need to ruminate more on his d2 i think

visor said this and i don't think he ever went anywhere with it, really

he definitely also defended sunbae in a /certain way/ but eh

anyway, i am at sunbaes ladd uturn

definitely feel like it is just sort of unnecessary and not that productive if he is a wolf, with ladd having really started latching onto visor

and visor seems... pretty uninterested in giving more than lip service to the ender being a wolf and jan shot a setup line

I'll be honest I barely remember EOD2 and had to go back to reread it to find out what you were talking about lol.

I remember the vote on Lissa was like it felt like Jan was being yeeted 100% at that point, and I felt like Lissa had posted some stuff I found sussish towards that EOD. Jan wasn't towny to me but I had a flash of "What if Jan is dealing with the thing I do where I'm mostly afk due to irl and get sussed due to recency bias" but also it was 90% "If I make the wagons more level we might see more interesting EOD movements."

(Also sometimes I just vote against my reads to make a more tense EOD, which definitely leveraged it.)

Tbh I did not properly understand Waza was in danger until the flip happened so that's 100% my bad because I think I would've probably saved em in the moment? I thought it was still Jan or Lissa at the end and was okay with either of them.

Though that's really kinda my word for it so feel free to discard.

okay this is the further explanation i was thinking of for enders vote

the thing is, i dont think him staying on that vote really feels like a fit here

i think the momentum had also kinda clearly gone away from me a bit, it was definitely a bit weird at the end

i mean i dont fault him for not reacting to wazas claim or anyhting like that, i froze up at it myself lol

but like

yeah

just kinda popping that vote on me and sticking on it is uh

i mean in the ender v world it does likely explain jan selecting there, but i feel like rask was a better choice (and also villagerier/more villa read so its higher value if jan is a bomb)

o

uh

if im on a team with jan/not ender here yeah prob

its like... handing the village a free extra kill since we were on evens... and letting the village avoid going to mylo... i don't think that'd be worth "maybe make people worry about ender from that lens but also maybe make people village read them"? seems not fuckin worth lol

i wonder how much knowing i had the n3 parting influenced this pov/bled into it

probably a bit too much not that it matters literally at all

also didnt really think through some weird nuances

anyway

also underestimated how valuable it was for wolves to have jan make it thru eod, i think, cause of the bombs. having jan alive to carry and not risking someone else to the bombs actually kinda huge. guess me moving off made more sense as a wolf than i thought LMAO also explains visor some. anyway

i think sunbaes d3 is very villagery both process and impact wise, clearing ladd there like that seems like an unnecessary and counterproductive line as a wolf

hmm yeah there's some of that too, but i will say that interacting in this game actually has been pretty hard at least for me so i don't know if that's necessarily as meaningful as it would generally be, the presence/time around spread has been pretty wide and there feels like a lot of ships passing in the night

but his like areas of focus just feel, idk.

he just feels off and i hate to make a read like this that i can't elaborate on because i know it is a royal pain in the ass to be wolfread for something like that and to try to respond to it/engage with it lol

idk maybe a little overly formulaic? there's just a desync to it all, that some of could come from the flow of this game, but it's like a lot of us are singing a song and he's singing well but he is singing it like 5 seconds delayed and a bit off key

i dont really understand why i thought this in retrospect, sunbae was way ahead of things rather than behind them lol if anything on d3

its funny to reread eod, lament not saving waza, then reread myself previously lamenting not saving waza

fuckin visor pocket

did anyone read this btw - idk what the point of posting my thoughts is if nobody is gonna say shit


re ladd: you literally townread sunbae d1 lol???

here i will quote your own posts for you:








(the last one isn't anything super noteworthy re sunbae v read, just figured i'd add it)

sure it wasn't like LOCK TOWN or anything, but you certainly didn't seem like you had compunctions about him d1

and then you didn't even read his posts of substance d2 self admittedly lol.

i feel like every time i point out a problem with your posting

re nk:

i agree that it is likely jan carried

lissa, ender can you please talk to me about both your issues with sunbae and your non issues with ladd?

what am i missing here?

obv i am not going to actually reply because i think i have like one post left but still

mm

meh

just frustrating i lost the whole main window i was gonna do shit today lol

whatcha gonna do ig

i think gth my villagers to win the game are raskol, visor, ender in that confidence order

mrg

wow i have been all over the place this game lol

funny post if ender w, but also pretty satisfying if i managed to both pull out of the visor pocket and fully flip my reads successfully to win the game

rask having every single antidote is funny as hell

[Lissa]

on reflection i dont really know why sunbae would have actually felt the need to do all that fancy shit where he tried to get given the hammer as a wolf tbh

like as a wolf in that f5, after doing the flip around on ladd (right when he really latched onto wolf visor at that) you kinda just commit right, you try to sell me/ender on ladd v and bus and shit

idk

i think ladd voting visor if sunbae didnt vote by that point was pretty predictable

(yeah sunbae you can only multiquote like 5 posts at a time lol i found that out last game on here)

visor seems like he really wanted sunbae to flip on ladd

given jans activity and ladds, it wouldn't be somethign that surprises me

particularly if ladd was a role that had the ability to either detect or prevent poison, but thats speculation territory lol and idk how tinfoilly i want to get in f5

man visor did post villagery af in this f5 lol (completely unrelated to the above post)

counterargument 2: itd be such a hype play we'd all keep mentioning it in the future. "member that time you voted no wolves, everyone thought you were a wolf, but we yolo'd and gave you the hammer and cleared you and we ended up winning? that was cool" coming to a dvc conversation near you in 2028

tragic we didnt do this ngl

we coulda reminisced on it in anni 2028 dvc after wolves killed one of us n2 and dayvigged the other d3

Here's the problem with that to me: I am struggling to find Ladd wolf in this situation after reading his early game. He's villa reading Waza, Cape, Rask. He's voting Jan. He's refusing my Jan shield and voting Jan anyways.

If you are a villager and Visor is a villager then not only is the team Ladd/Ender but we have to somehow convince each other (me, you, visor) on the ones we are right about while pushing each other off the ones we are wrong about. Ya'll would need to convince me on Ladd while I convince yall on Ender.

It's not impossible but we have a lot of cooperative work to do if that's going to be the case and I'm not really sure where to start on there (which circles us back around to I think the best chance for us to win is to give me the hammer and I have no idea how to achieve this goal)

sunbae pushing back on my visor villaread

he feels very real in this f5 in general

like he is in a spot where i would argue he was the person with the most interesting/useful collection of information that day, and his posts match it

his me/ender tinfoil is very villagery i think

like you could argue it was a way for him to try to divert from the ladd/visor dichotomy, but 1. in his thread position doing that so openly seems even counterproductive in the sunbae/visor world 2. everyone was clearing me, its not like it going anywhere was realistic

maybe those counter each other but ehh

it comes from a pretty uninformed pov, i think, for a few reasons

i think some of visor's posts about sunbae are possibly my biggest reason that i am still a bit afraid, but i don't think i should or will care about those over everything else

ender took a prowolf line at eod2 for poor reasons and in a way that didn't fit those reasons, and both wolves protected him or repeatedly punted the idea of reading him despite there being a lot of avenues to push him if he was v. he was right about a lot of stuff d1/2 but never actually contributed to killing a wolf with it.

sunbae found ladd v in a real looking way at a very provillage time when he didn't really need to

part of me thinks that the way ladd has treated lissa today is all about appealing to them to get them onto their side and that they aren't aligned, which would leave the last wolf in sunbae and ender

funny line considering what visor was doing in that f5

i do kinda feel like visor talking about sunbae in 1126 is him talking about a villa, sort of

interestingly reading over my conversation with him again, i feel a lot more serene and clearheaded about making this vote regardless of the result than i did at that point in time (i did towards the end of f5 too, i just held to let ender post/i didn't want to make one more post and say that on the off chance of some double post fuckery or something lol)

i think (i haven't actually got there to reread it yet, i'm just thinking about it because i read the post of mine that prompted it) that the process behind sunbae bringing up ladd to me was villagery and that as a wolf he would probably realize it was do blatantly timed as to be counterproductive lol

also im pretty sure not voting back in lockedvote lylo is like a real tell not just in turbos ngl

it feels like visor had and was aware of every reason there could be to push on ender for days on days but never did anything with it

i know i called a lot of sunbaes d4 blatant openwolfing, but rereading it i definitely feel very differently. he took some weird lines if he was a wolf/his mindset fundamentally feels more like that of a cornered villager and his process/worldview feels very real

yeah it seemed strange to me, but i basically did the same thing, i figured if hes a villager it might be helpful for him

and it feels like visor was subtly trying to fuel my sunbae wolfread here

it definitely bugged me when ender came in for a stretch and just didn't really express either a worldview or reads (i know he said he lost a post, but i want to say it's still pretty odd he didn't express /any/ super shortened or something version of it) but there's possibly stylistic elements to that so i'm not sure how much i want to weight it

im like hearing and thinking about everything you are saying but like. mrg

im having a deja vu moment to beck hard misreading where i was at in the voxx f3

its not really the same at all but like

mmh

how do i explain this, it does make me think you're just the villager here though. feel like i'm almost viewing the game from outside for a moment. the whole way you've been talking about visor for the past couple days, something just sorta clicked

i wish ender would vote. me voting first is like wildly suboptimal lmao.

55

this was a fun post lol

ender/ladd is just kinda. idk why don't you just fucking wait for sunbae to vote there lol you prob win today (also true for the ender/visor world lmao)

i have no idea why i said this parentheses when ladd voted first

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have this deep dark feeling that I am once again going to be the game-losing misflip for town. Tbh I thought that yesterday but I was wrong so here's hoping I'm wrong again.

But I'm expecting to see a Ladd alive and Lissa flip in the morning. I did deny Lissa the hammer intentionally to hopefully reduce that chance but after I did that I kinda honestly thought it was a futile move.

Sunbae isn't going to want Lissa over Ladd. So hi Ladd. Given our history I don't know how I'm going to win this game for town but I'm going to give it a fair shake. (Unless you're wolf in which case I called it but I still lose lol)

So yes, after Sunbae's vote I hemmed and hawed for a while because honestly I was like "Does Sunbae really pre-empt that on a partner?"

But Lissa had just said that she thought Visor was the wolfier. And I'd just made a comment or two about Visor being the wolfier. (I was going to vote Visor tbh after I re-wrote my wall but you'd have to trust my word for it so nyeh.) so I think Sunbae was honestly just taking the thunder away from other people and setting down the first vote.

And then I was like "If Lissa gets the hammer she's hammering Visor. And if she's right then she gets killed in the night 100%." So I took that away and hammered Visor myself.

So I'm going to jump back to Sunbae. I have tossed this over in my head and it was what settled the previous night as the most confident thing I had.

Sunbae, why does he randomly go after me when I'm unassailable? When I've just shot one wolf and no one is challenging my position? Because, as wolf, he's not going to garner sus then either. Maple is on the block and nothing is saving him.

Sunbae can set up for the next phase of the game, trying to undermine me.

Which also harks back to "Why did Jan give me the gun."

Because, as I said on that day, it honestly makes so little sense in the grand scheme of things. Because wolves potentially lose an ml.

But I think I kind of have an answer to that. They didn't know who had the Last Parting gift. And if, say, Maple or Lissa (Who were getting a lot of sus prior to Jan's flip) had it then we could clear POE with it still.

And given my vote on Lissa maybe I was swayable. If they can get me onside with Jan then they've pretty much won the game since I was one of the most vocal sussers of Jan (In my impression at least.)

Risk with not much downside since Maple is tied heavily enough to Jan that they can easily chain that together.

So I've done the rereading and things I think are indicative of wolf!Sunbae that I really want to bring to your attention:

1. Jan townread on D1 (Very strong) only to reverse it when he realised that Jan was tanking and very quickly heading towards being very sussed.

2. Visor literally spent a lot of D1 trying to bait someone into leading the wolfread charge on me.

3. Sunbae desperately played for the hammer in the hopes it would be given because they just win then.

4.

I feel like this is easily the wolfiest post in the thread regarding the F5. Sunbae is intentionally finding reasons to fence sit and talks about "assuming Visor/Ladd as v" right after saying Visor/Ladd should cross.

And as I said, Visor and Sunbae spent more time talking about reading *other* people. Also I find it hilarious that they spent a lot of in-thread time talking about a horse game.

5. You remember how you said that "If you think Visor/You are w/w after D3 you're a wolf"?




I can't help but notice that Sunbae is intentionally trying to field it.

this was moments before he wilded a Lissa/Me world because it would push two town into the wolf sphere and you/Visor were nettling. He literally flung whatever was at the wall in hopes if finding a way forwards. It never felt like Sunbae was trying to solve the game in an organic manner.

---

I could diatribe more but got a headache so I'll continue once day starts and I can post instead of re-writing things in a notepad lol.

@Lissa

Still relevant info but enjoy my incredibly wolfy appeal to the night kill

like i said i'm not really weighting stuff today much, but a few thoughts on this

wrt 2, sure you can argue that but he literally never actually made any attempt to kill you and definitely did have angles of opportunity to try pushing you

i think both 3 and 4, on reread, were pretty weird lines done in pretty weird ways if he is a wolf

(ngl i also actually think i thought visor and ladd were the villageriest on posting at a point around there lol)

bringing up me was literally never going to actually bring the likelihood of me getting killed any higher and did nothing but if anything worsen how i viewed him, probably, from a deciding to do it pov for a wolf sunbae there

like i said, re: rask, you (well either wolfteam) kills rask because i was pocketed as fuck by visor

i do, in general, think if sunbae is a wolf he did a LOT of things that make his life/wincon MORE difficult in ways that don't really give a lot of on the surface credit/benefit as a wolf in exchange

i did thumb through ender's iso in the last org game and while this is never something i'd really base anything on because side by side comparison cold read meta reads suck, he definitely feels a bit Different. meh

It's called "24 hours of night phase where my brain is still ticking over about the game to actually elaborate further on my vague feelings and reread things I care about"

Because I don't rest during night phases for dumb reasons.

i did find this post, and its certainly possible it has to do with irl circumstances, but there's a number of ways in which his posting in this game feels unaligned with this

I actually want to leverage this very argument lol.

@Lissa

You've played a lot with Visor. He's an adroit wolf, but honestly ask yourself:
In a situation when defending partners or bussing them is proposed, he tends towards always giving himself ways to bus.

He has rarely been the wolf defending a partner and refusing to agree to a wolfread.

Why would he break that for me here? Especially going into F3 where bussing is classically the more effective move.

And yes I'm going to appeal to you to the final moment idc if you take my words with a grain of salt because at least if you hammer me when I do I can feel like I've tried.

and to answer this, even if you're not some kind of importantish wolf pr and it's not for that reason, he really did not need to do so

i can certainly empathize with thinking about things in ways people dont expect to some extent


i do think visor seemed a bit annoyed at sunbae's ladd read, lol

i acknowledge that wolves also never particularly tried to kill sunbae itt, but i think the dynamics around that are sorta different, he's certainly not an easy ml and was also pretty wrong early on

whereas ender was pretty right d1-2 but basically never did anything concretely provillage (as in in terms of actually contributing directly to killing a wolf) with it

Why?

That is taking my reaction out of context in a horrible way mate.

My reaction changes based on context.

Ngl this hit down only to end it with "idk if it's wolfy" is kinda sus.



???? why



Unironically this is so town!Sunbae it hurts.

posts where both visor and ender ???d sunbae's jan read lol

+ ender pointed out a weird jan read on him, +

Why was my entry "Clearly not reasonable"?

but didn't really push on it or really actually go anywhere with the wolfread

Ladd why did you turn around on ender

also this feels more like trying to find an opening on ladd than ender, or to support the idea of them being paired

why lissa now?

where are you at on jan?

4/2 felt boring 4/3 might be more exciting idk.

i do feel like visor, being pretty directly involved in this interaction, would as a wolf especially see it as a pretty reasonable opening to push ender the next day; ender voted had become obvious villager me versus wolf jan for pretty sketchy reasons and then just sorta stayed there while many other people came to find me villagery (including visor) and the effective traction on me died even tho the wagon sort of still existed

you're gonna love it when i say this morning that ender is tomorrows problem :P

and see, tomorrows problem just sort of went on forever


man imagine the timeline where i just swap back off waza to jan or even maple lol

(the timeline where i tie it and die is funny tho)

but imagine if me and waza live, how lock clear i am after that

anyway

i will say that something just occurred to me

rask flipped with the gun from the parting gift, which also means cape would have flipped with that if he had been given it (i think?)

which i believe means that it was actually given to ender

its pretty possible there is some kind of role stuff that made this safe to do tbf

but it is a thing

but uh. like i said, last time i tried to clear someone on bad mech spec, i almost singlehandedly lost a game for it lol

but wolves having some form of bomb prot or bomb inv or even some role with a built in antidote would track fine

[Lissa]

If we don't kill Jan and I don't really want to kill lissa

I will accept maple ender or waza

ender was both the least likely of these to happen here and the least supported by anything he was posting

just so much visor could push ender for that he never bit on

he asked people about ender, he tried to tie ladd/ender together, he called out ladd for reversing the ender read, but outside of there and this at eod1 (where again ender was the least of a wagon on this list)

I doubt I will be around for eod

I'm fine if any of logic ender or maple dies

he doesn't actually have an ender read

the next day, he brought him up to raskol as missing on his list, but at that point he'd know ender had killed cape

he hmmed at some ender posts about maple

i think this was actually the first time he had any kind of his own read on ender, and it's when ender is going to claim to have killed jan

honestly i just thought your entrance was weak and i was trying to get opinions before saying anything in case i influenced peoples responses

but i also know that i have misread you in recent games so i didn't want to just go all in (also because we are friends)

part of why i gave ladd such a hard time when he thought you were lock wolf and then switched

like he said this but he NEVER actually said anything even after a bunch of people responded lol

i keep going through his d1-2 posts feeling like surely i missed something in this vein right

like he wanted ender to do something and then these

It's the short version anyway - basically they aren't gonna do anything unless they are in danger, it's their slanking wolf type of game imo

Re Jan: have been disappointed with him today, d1 was fine, had the joie de vivre I am looking for from v Jan but today is more doiur

And not any counter culture reads (like against thread position) that he is worried about

Like if he was wolf reading Ladd or sunbae or rask but not feeling like he should push there or something

Idk what to make of enders posts towards me rn I will need to read them when I get home

Manti

(Ladd/ender)

Lissa/Jan/rask/waza

?

and that is literally it d1-2 as far as any actual talking about what HE thinks of ender

[Lissa]

Enders posts today are ok and he responded quick enough when I asked about the chat though if he's a wolf they would've already discussed it so that's probably a moot point

What do you think of rask sunabe

I'm trying to decide is this is a badchart.jpg read or a good observation but my initial take reading today is Rask coming in with a post about using my wall to say ender wolf and one of ladd/maple when the wolves know for a fact that ender killed jan is >>>rand villa for Rask. If rask is a wolf either Raskwolf knows villa Ender is gonna be clear so starting the day with Enderwolf makes little sense or Rask/Ender are together in one of the ploys I talked about in which case the plan is to send Ender deep and starting the day with Enderwolf makes no sense.

I also am making the note that Waza specifically thought I was wolfy in part because I couldn't get to Raskvilla and waza thought it was so obvious that it was weird I couldn't.

i appreciate this read but i don't think its something that works for me

pretty quickly shifts to lightly shielding ender

there is some niggling things that make me slightly paranoid it is sunbae but i don't think they really hold real water, just a few things as i read visor/sunbae interact, but i don't really think they are... anything really, and at points it definitely feels like they aren't really aligned, feels at a few points like sunbae made a correct read and visor is just not interested in picking it up with him lol

whats up with enders eod?

sunbae could totally be a wolf - if you make the argument i will listen. i thought he posted well d2 (and i'm not sure ive seen him post those walls as a wolf LOL)

also i think that big post is probably an important post to read lol

i sympathise with his reaction to village reading jan and feeling like he should've got there earlier but i do think that jan is a hard wolf to catch early so i might be putting my perspective too much into his then

i think he has posted better than you, frankly

rask is possible but i think now i have cooled my jets on him a little i think he is just having a shocker given how he has posted this day phase and i don't get the impression he is faking having a bad game, but ymmv on that read

i can't decide how to read the sunbae read in this post and it just kinda feels like a level to try so meh

just in general i feel like visor hasn't really talked much about a sunbae read either but

i think its probably moreso lowkey pocketing

i feel like even knowing ender has to have actually had jan use the parting on him/used the gun (actually, wait, that's probably not true and rask just had it flip because he didn't USE it that makes sense actually) but with that not being true, i think if you're using it on a villa you are not killing, you moreso go rask in the hopes he gets poisoned in the process or doesn't kill you given he's much villagerier than ender

so why is it a problem that i had this read earlier than you lol????

wild

this ones pretty thin, but it feels like visor is annoyed he is being pushed for a correct read here lol

reading the last page i do think hell world sunbae/visor is unlikely. unless they are doing some elaborate good cop vs bad cop ploy i don't feel those pages with me/visor/sunbae in it would happen the same way if they were w/w?

i am pretty locked in on visor/maple, it just makes ~everything fit for me (just a bit spooked by jan v list lissa posted and jan voting maple/visor in quick succession on eod2 but i think it's reasonable he was in anti spew given he had already claimed)

if i am wrong sorry, c'est la vie

second most likely team is probably sunbae/maple, then sunbae/visor and then sunbae/ender

i do think those interactions dont really feel partnered from sunbae/visor

sure

I'd like to know what you thought of ladd's handling of me yesterday, specifically regarding me trying to get him to push maple (and him tangentially pushing them through me)

now i am aware this is heavy confirmation bias, but it felt to me like he was letting me basically go wild on that front, without actually being willing to dirty his hands with anythign surrounding maple

where do you stand on that, what were you thinking reading it?

this feels more like visor trying to get sunbae to wolfread ladd, than partnered interaction

sunbae just really isnt biting, he reads that and he doesn't try to bolster it OR try to play off it to distance he just goes off and starts casing a me/ender team lol

why wouldn't i just.... post a read on my bro, if we were w/w?

its not like i haven't done that plenty on here before

i mean thats just not how i wolf, if i'm going to bus a bro, i'll bus him till he dies and I get the credit

if i was a wolf with jan i just kill him and ride the credit to winning the game

given jans activity and ladds, it wouldn't be somethign that surprises me

particularly if ladd was a role that had the ability to either detect or prevent poison, but thats speculation territory lol and idk how tinfoilly i want to get in f5

and it definitely feels like visor is Actually trying to get sunbae to villaread him and wolfread ladd here

I find you and Ladd villagery on posting still which is why Im struggling this game. Via posting I think you two are the villageriest two while mechanically/dealing with the deal wolf I think ender (killed)/lissa (push) are and I'm hung up in my "my vibes vs mechanics" torn viewpoints. I'm also baffled by how locked in both of you are on each other - you on him more given i think if you read his posts he's just been massively pro villa this game and you dont seem to have really considered that - but yeah. Part of me thinks both of you would have an easier time seeing the other as villagery as villagers so i also have a SMALL FEAR that its both of you.

and this just doesnt feel like a paired/distancing post, the way he talks about them being locked in on each other

if ladd is a villager, then my self focused lens and inability to look past it has failed me yet again, and it would be incredibly frustrating to lose such a winnable game because i couldn't get out of my head regarding it. so i will listen ofc, its f5 i refuse to not reconsider things

if i am being completely honest, i don't think i have played a more villagery game since.... god i don't know like 2022 or something lol (not that it has translated to being good at catching wolves apparently....)

i've actually had time to play this game for the most part and its been fun to play with you guys, but also a sad reminder of just how bad i am compared to where i used to be lol

again these feel like pocketing attempts moreso. it's very similar to the way visor was interacting with me a bit later on about hesitation to vote etc

man i thought you would read my wall at the very least lol, i explained it there



reflecting on this in hindsight i think theres a lot of wanting lissa to be v but its what i felt at the time at least. i need to reread things again and get a feeling for the timing of how things played out

this feels like him not wanting to completely shut down concerns about me

i dont know? the fact she has managed to find me as v makes me desperately want to believe her.

like my god i just want to believe lol.

What if the plan was always to have Jan die?

and this just feels like trying to fan the flames of his tinfoil about that line

i have someeee tiny tinfoil about the timing of the interaction between this and the below but it'd really be like TOO transparently orchestrated if along those lines to be realistic, lol

Oh I think I solved the game hold on

The question that has been plaguing me since sod3 is “why did Jan give the gun to ender” and I haven't been able to figure it out. The missing piece popped into head just now skimming Lissa's earlier post: that she held the parting gift because she was afraid of using it if Maple was a villager and ending the game.

The part about holding the parting gift was the part I initially focused on because it confirmed to me that Jan could have held it and chose not to. Which really blew my mind given the fact that the wolves were about to be going to final 8 with 3 of them alive. That's one mischop left to win in a game where the village was all over the place and Maple was lined up as everyones most likely wolf. Even if Jan holstered it and people wanted to find him as outed for it he still gets chopped and then we kill Maple the next day and lose.

It made no sense to me and I've been going back and forth on it. The part that just clicked for me is that you have to submit your target before end of day. It's a day action.

Well now there becomes a logical option that explains everything. Jan submit the action before Waza died right at the last second via Cape's vote. In fact Jan told us when he submit: Post #649. Of course if Jan dies then his submission doesn't matter. But it matters a whole lot if he lives. Again it gives us a free miskill if he lives.

Unless.

A wolf dies anyways. Well then Jan sending to Ender makes sense because we're about to go to 6/2, NOT 5/3. And one of the two is Jan who just had to claim to save himself and is not long for this world.

The wagons when Jan submit in #649?

3 votes Jan
3 votes Lissa

and then lissa voted elsewhere to put herself in the lead.

Imagine if you will Jan expecting to either die or for Lissa, a teammate, to die. Sending the shot to Ender to go the distance is a hail mary but one that is perfectly logical. It's 6/2, he kills Jan to make 6/1 instead of chopping Jan we chop Maple, 4/1 and a lot of in fighting between ladd/rask/visor/myself. Nobody thinks its weird for Ender to live over any of them at end game. The path is set.

Then, surprise. Waza dies. It's 5/3 now. If we chop Jan next its 4/2. We sleep. Its 3/2 and really tight. Theyve had to make two night kills. Why not just take the sleep out of the way and get the maple chop through? Ender and Lissa are in great shape now if Jan dies (after all, they started bussing each other for after lissa died so they dont look paired).

i think sunbae's progression to here is extremely villagery

especially right out of... the post where he asked me for thoughts on a visor/ladd world lol

IM GONNA WAIT FOR VISOR

(lol ok ok fine ill finally drop it)

this also just vibes unpaired lmao


in the maple eod, visors wall, he talks about ender and points out some problems but seems completely uninterested in actually going anywhere with it and basically openly punts... again

then goes back to like

not. talking. about ender

i in fact did NOT solve the game earlier

(7 or 8 left, this is me noting it. if ender and lissa split their vote i can confirm im villa before bed and yall can spend the next day solving with a clear pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee itd be hype and i genuinely think its the best path to victory)

I have re read jan and i feel he had every excuse to wolfread ender and did not

In fact he basically writes a mini case but then has him as top villa


If sunbae d1/d2 didnt exist, it would be so easy to just say the wolves are visor/ender gg

But with visor/jan being wolves sunbae s first ciuple of days just dont look great which is a shame cause i think he posted amazing d3/d4


Ender has eod2 which is pretty terrible otoh

and yeah this is the thing w/ jan too lol



as a side note, this is probably the chillest and most serene i have ever felt making a f3 decision as a villager

right or wrong, i feel okay with things and like i can see clearly and make a reasonable assessment based on them and feel good about it and okay if i get it wrong instead of being overwhelmed and stressed and unable to see anything clearly really

between general recent Character Development that's impacted how i deal with things like being wrong and how yesterday went

[Lissa]

i will say in some ways it has felt like the sunbae of today is two different people at different times and has felt different today compared to earlier in the game

this feels again like a subtle attempt to get me to wolfread sunbae (along with seeing us as on the same page)

yeah it seemed strange to me, but i basically did the same thing, i figured if hes a villager it might be helpful for him

like idk, kinda just feels like visor is talking to me about a villa here lol

its def more about me than about sunbaes alignment tho

rereading the sunbae question to me about ladd, i feel like its clearly unlikely im gonna care about it so it just looks surface level bad for no reason and the paranoia behind it feels believable and reason he got there is pretty nuanced lol

anyway i could reread until the cows come home but at this point it is definitely well in the territory of purely making me feel better about my vote, i am pretty sure i am not changing my mind, so i suppose it is time for me to vote

[EnderWiggin]

Ender coming to you live from a pile of blankets.

[EnderWiggin]

Tbh I don't even know where to begin convincing you I am town. Partially because sure my game has been a little scattershot and partially because it really feels like you've already made up your mind lol.

[Lissa]

Tbh I don't even know where to begin convincing you I am town. Partially because sure my game has been a little scattershot and partially because it really feels like you've already made up your mind lol.

yeah i can wait a little bit longer if you want to say anything further but i'm gonna be real i'm not really sure there is much you can do atp that would change my mind and i don't really expect to weight posting in f3 very much

sorry if wrong but i am feeling fairly confident

[EnderWiggin]

I kinda expected to lose it to Sunbae. He's an eloquent and thorough wolf lol.

I can't think if anything new to throw out there tbh. Brain fog and I feel like I've already highlighted the relevant points.