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ladd
05-09-2025, 07:21
ladd what do you make of the way lissa has posted wrt your slot, and her amenability to me suggesting a eod flashwagon on afk ladd for no reason other than someone claiming pr and dipping?

im kinda struggling with that dynamic, especially considering she +1d me telling arctic to not lim taffy, but seemed willing to flash an afk who frankly had no business being a d1 wagon

Dont think i didnt see you and benneh (and maybe waza? Idr) voting me lol nice try


I dont make much of it honestly, it lines up with what her reads were at the time i think. She never really v read me, didnt want to vote taffy cause pr claim, rask cause 0 posts

I'll probably sheep sunbae read there for now, and everyone who knows her better than me thinks she is a villager so am cool with it. They are like just outiside immediate PoE for me tho

If taffy/rask are both w she had a super rough EoD reads wise but given the context i am not even sure thats wolfy

Lissa
05-09-2025, 07:28
Honestly the game just seems villagery enough in general that I think Taffy is just a wolf and probably some kind of kp. Even though I'm happy with my poe no one in it really feels wolfy so it's kinda hard for me to feel good about calling 2 non-Taffy players wolves

This line of reasoning was correct on Rask (though it's not really how I felt about the game yesterday which is why I didn't consider going there) so it must be correct here :D

I would be enthused to be wrong about this because the game might not be boring then! Finding a lone wolf in these games when 2 wolves die immediately is either incredibly easy, which is boring, or absolute hell because they've just been bussing like crazy. I find that it's usually easier to solve the game if at least 2 survive until later because then there's at least some incentive to not bus which can be read into, but if both wolves are poe'd immediately then it's hard to figure out who it is

yeah I've kind of come around to that; want to see what she has to say today/see her claim fully, but


lmao sunbae was towny, had a towny eod, and claimed PR for some reason.

taffy had the way sketcher claim.
Lissa arctic is pretty obviously pr who went after taffy so strongly b/c of him not liking the anticlaim stuff.. So i don't love your direction in 720 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864107&viewfull=1#post2053864107)

what do you tr about maple? what are your thoughts on ender and ladd?

Wait what

I didn't catch that at all, I mean multiple other people also still tried to kill taffy after the claim? I also really wish you didn't say that because I really do not think it was that obvious, so I hope you're wrong.

mostly I think maple is playing super weird if she is a wolf, I really don't think this is how she would be playing this game at all if she had randed wolf. a wolf maple looks at the game and has a 0 posting partner d1 in a REALLY villagery thread full of really strong players, she can surely tell she's gonna have to go deep this game. and just going rask if it turned out there wasn't really a better option at eod was clearly on several people's minds some way or another, I think, at least as some kind of faint consideration. I'm pretty confident she'd have picked up on that, and she both doesn't bus or try to at all look good and ALSO doesn't try to come up with any kind of real, meaningful alternative and just keeps tunneling annika?? idk it's really hard for me to see her choosing not to either try to capitalize on or avoid what happened and also for her to on top of that continue a tunnel that like everyone hates for no productive purpose

like if manti was a wolf she could've focused on pushing taffy or arctic (if they are villagers. if either is a wolf it's even weirder that she didn't try to get any kind of credit out of any of it, like ?????) or ladd (again if he is a villa but like... I mean these options aren't ALL gonna be wolves lol) or if there was another wolf also in danger it's MORE weird that she didn't actually either try to find a real alternative or take a side.

I just don't really see a wolf agenda in her posting at all. if she was a wolf she would be playing wildly different imo. there's a few different ways that could go depending on both her team and the choices she decides to make but none of them look anything like this.

also she would like, reaaallly want to win as a wolf in this playerlist lol

and her posting just isn't really advancing that, she's kinda off on her own adventure tryharding but in a way it's hard to imagine she thinks meaningfully advances her wincon as a wolf

I've actually talked myself into this read being stronger than it was before I typed this out. Her whole play this game is just completely at odds with how I imagine her approaching this game as a wolf.


ladd just kinda feels a bit idk, off. his posts just feel like they are missing something? he doesn't pop out as having done anything strongly villagery. not a read I feel super great about. shouldn't be a wolf with taffy though.

ender is a bit complicated. part of me just thinks they don't seem like they're on a team/in a wolfchat at all? certain kind of almost diconnected/off on their own. I don't see an agenda, they're just kind of meandering around thinking about things. but it's in such a way I kinda feel like I might be misreading a style thing? idk, I almost wrote them with a question mark in that second town tier.

Lissa
05-09-2025, 07:36
ladd what do you make of the way lissa has posted wrt your slot, and her amenability to me suggesting a eod flashwagon on afk ladd for no reason other than someone claiming pr and dipping?

im kinda struggling with that dynamic, especially considering she +1d me telling arctic to not lim taffy, but seemed willing to flash an afk who frankly had no business being a d1 wagon

I mean I wasn't village reading him and had a ton of village reads? And one of my not-village reads had claimed PR and I think it's never correct to go there on d1 after that.

Why are you acting like it's unreasonable to have considered/been interested in wagoning him when you were (as you acknowledged) literally suggesting it?

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 07:39
What do you mean when you say "specifically" for them?

I am also egoistically curious why you villaread me at the start of the game and whether that read has evolved since

I don't mean anything specifically for Arctic. That was just like "I don't think it was specifically towny" as a way of emphasising I didn't find it towny. Probably bad word choice.

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 07:40
Oh and villaread was mostly around how I find you pick a target to bite into as wolf and didn't see that. Also just liked your posts.

Not really evolved and I probably need to review it now but haven't.

Lissa
05-09-2025, 07:41
Dont think i didnt see you and benneh (and maybe waza? Idr) voting me lol nice try


I dont make much of it honestly, it lines up with what her reads were at the time i think. She never really v read me, didnt want to vote taffy cause pr claim, rask cause 0 posts

I'll probably sheep sunbae read there for now, and everyone who knows her better than me thinks she is a villager so am cool with it. They are like just outiside immediate PoE for me tho

If taffy/rask are both w she had a super rough EoD reads wise but given the context i am not even sure thats wolfy

I will feel a bit silly if that turns out to be the case for sure

But not that silly, one was literally a 0 poster and I just think it's strictly incorrect to kill the claim there so shrug

pzelda
05-09-2025, 07:41
Arctic is on a roll tbh. They def have a different style more focused on finding wolves, but I can see them as a villa now (I tr them). That also makes me wanna pay more attention to Visor.
Annika, I'm not 100% about their eod looking so good. I think they kind of ended on Rask after running out of options. Their only other option was Maple and he was pushing back. Also, the Rask wagon got traction, Rask was afk and so on. I guess I'm missing a wee bit what Benneh liked about their eod. I might change my mind after rereading.
I actually kind of like Maple during the eod. I can't elaborate, because I didn't keep notes.

Ladd and Taffy are players to talk about rn IMHO.
I quite liked Taffy after sitting in the thread with them, but I also disliked that claim a little bit. I like the way they articulate their reads and I felt I could follow how they arrived at their conclusions. There are things to check again. Who was pushing them and why they claimed in the end.
Ladd is a weird one. I quite like his posts overall, but he's a little bit under the radar instead of trying to lead or at least inspire village. Yesterday I thought he could had ramded a pro and that he was holding back to avoid N1 kill. Today, I'm not so sure so far. Technically, there's not a whole lot wrong about his posts today, but they mostly reacted to other players instead of for example pushing on their own.

Ender is also someone to throw in the Poe.
Waza - I don't want to consider them just for moving their vote. I guess I can wait a little a watch what their game today looks like. So far waza defender their eod move. I want to see where they are at.

pzelda
05-09-2025, 07:43
Benneh is implying that Sunbae anticipated who was targetted and redirected onto himself. Therefore wolves were the ones that killed him but Sunbae was not the N1 therefore wolves weren't trying to silence sunbae

Ender writing this kinda makes me thing he's just a villa.

ladd
05-09-2025, 07:44
Not gonna quote the full post cause i am on phone but manti can tryhard as a wolf and they can slank, assuming they would try hard or push an agenda is wrong iyam

I have seen them troll eods as a wolf and i dont really think they were in a position to push a mislunch and neither to grab credit by voting rask (tho its arfuable how much credit there even is to grab voting a 0 poster eheh)

ladd
05-09-2025, 07:46
Oh and villaread was mostly around how I find you pick a target to bite into as wolf and didn't see that. Also just liked your posts.

Not really evolved and I probably need to review it now but haven't.

Fair enuf on both



Lissa ya i dont think there is anything wrong in not wanting to lunch taffy or rask to be clear

didistetter
05-09-2025, 07:46
Why are you acting like it's unreasonable to have considered/been interested in wagoning him when you were (as you acknowledged) literally suggesting it?

don't think it's unreasonable. But also i wasn't actually interested in killing him eod. Ack your thoughts on maple. That's kinda where i'm at with her too. Her play doesn't really... seem conducive to winning as a wolf? espec with an afk teammate. If taffy is a wolf that probs just means wolves weren't in a great spot regardless, but in that world I'm assuming the third would be highest investment given the bother to fakeclaim.

Dunno.

I'm having a bit of a hard time landing on a team of two that feels ~right~ rn


EnderWiggin could you talk me through what about arctic you don't like?

pzelda
05-09-2025, 07:52
why?

I think what made me post this was the part about Lissa. It just felt like a good evaluation.

pzelda
05-09-2025, 07:56
RIP Sunbae.

I still disagree that Arctic's EOD was specifically towny of em.

But there's enough people who seem to think that was clearing that it can't be just a wolf sentiment echo chamber and I have to consider strongly that I'm just five miles underneath the ground in my tunnel. So I'm gonna ignore Arctic for a bit and come back to it.

I also want to see what Taffy has to say.

I thought Maple had a terrible EOD. (This is definitely a unique viewpoint I see)

I think Benneh/Annika/Stett/Waza are all very towny from that EOD.

Need to get back to work will think more on this later.

Why was waza's eod towny in your eyes? Benneh and others has been scrutinizing waza for that switch.

pzelda
05-09-2025, 07:56
Btw Is there a way to count my posts and to isolate players?

didistetter
05-09-2025, 07:56
Ender writing this kinda makes me thing he's just a villa.
pzelda what about this post is "just villa"

Arctic
05-09-2025, 07:57
Ender writing this kinda makes me thing he's just a villa.

...huh? that post isn't alignment indicative, he was just explaining a mech point about sunbae's role and the night kill on benneh's behalf (literally re-iterating what he was implying) so i'm curious why you think this means anything


Not gonna quote the full post cause i am on phone but manti can tryhard as a wolf and they can slank, assuming they would try hard or push an agenda is wrong iyam

I have seen them troll eods as a wolf and i dont really think they were in a position to push a mislunch and neither to grab credit by voting rask (tho its arfuable how much credit there even is to grab voting a 0 poster eheh)

i agree with this

like,, if wolf manti hard pushes a ML there then the wolves in rask/taffy just die shortly afterwards (probably..) and she can easily die right after that. and i don't think voting rask really does much for her either. i think this is easily a game where if you get randed with afk partners you just do some weird shit and lean into this sort of reasoning to get townread. or at least that's what i'd do

i think this point holds more legitimacy concerning the rest of her play in the phase which was originally why i had them as town, and do kinda vibe that way still, but it's not really enough to move the needle for me

waza
05-09-2025, 07:57
yeah I have been pretty lazy with this and I am sorry about that but when I'd clear you if taffy flips wolf and I really want to kill her it's kind of a waste of energy to evaluate you now. but I will do it if taffy ends up being town, I am not just gonna be screaming for your head so dw lol. gun to head you just wouldn't really move in my poe, but can't say for sure

why are you obsessed with why everyone is v reading dya? is the post about sunbae supposed to be some esoteric thing that nobody else should be reading into? because i've been locking them town over the same thing, it seems pretty straight forward to me. are you worried some people may be exhibiting TMI on them? otherwise i'm not really sure what the intrigue is here

lol his line of questioning on dya is probs in the top 3 of towbiest things I read today, after your sod post which is verbatim what I planned to post myself later if I wanted to get some townread

ladd
05-09-2025, 07:59
don't think it's unreasonable. But also i wasn't actually interested in killing him eod. Ack your thoughts on maple. That's kinda where i'm at with her too. Her play doesn't really... seem conducive to winning as a wolf? espec with an afk teammate. If taffy is a wolf that probs just means wolves weren't in a great spot regardless, but in that world I'm assuming the third would be highest investment given the bother to fakeclaim.

Dunno.

I'm having a bit of a hard time landing on a team of two that feels ~right~ rn


EnderWiggin could you talk me through what about arctic you don't like?

Whats your thoughts on visor

pzelda
05-09-2025, 08:00
pzelda what about this post is "just villa"

I find it more likely coming from not a wolf (in a pack) mind. It's that kind of post explaining something a different player maybe wanted to hold back.
But thinking about it some more, it might be a wolf using another player to create a narrative and to wifom.

Ok, I guess It's not the best post to read into.

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 08:04
I find it more likely coming from not a wolf (in a pack) mind. It's that kind of post explaining something a different player maybe wanted to hold back.
But thinking about it some more, it might be a wolf using another player to create a narrative and to wifom.

Ok, I guess It's not the best post to read into.

i think you’re reading too much into that post. Ender says nothing new in it, he just said outright what I was saying clearer for Arctic

theres nothing wolfy or towny about it (IMHO)

Arctic
05-09-2025, 08:06
lol his line of questioning on dya is probs in the top 3 of towbiest things I read today, after your sod post which is verbatim what I planned to post myself later if I wanted to get some townread

yeah in all honesty, i think he's been pretty townie today

i think him tinfoiling me and taffy as w/w and knowing taffy wouldn't go over is townie regardless of what taffy is, i'm not sure that's smth a wolf would be thinking of lol. also what you said, not sure i get what he's going for but i believe he cares about it / would be weird for a wolf to pry on. i also liked the way he said lissa's eod was bad if rask and taffy were wolves but that it wasn't necessarily wolfy in context (aka rask 0 poster and taffy claiming PR - it's not unreasonable to not want to kill either of those ppl) - feels like he's giving her the benefit of the doubt and evaluating ppl in good faith

pzelda
05-09-2025, 08:08
It might be slightly unclear where I'm at:

Benneh/Stett/Dya
Arctic/Lissa
Visor/Maple/waza
Annika/Ladd/Ender/Taffy

I would say that there is't a single player who would be a blatant wolf. You're playing well. So, my Poe is more the least towny people than Wolfy players.

Arctic
05-09-2025, 08:12
if visor is a wolf then i think he started the game trying to wolfside (pushes on stett, annika) and then realized that wasn't going to work and townsided towards eod

which i think is.. plausible, especially given how quiet he's been this game. normally in cases like this i'd expect a town siding wolf to try and establish themselves more with their posting, but i'm not entirely convinced here. i could easily see it being a case of him trying to get cred long enough to survive until the people who would catch him are dead and then he can start posting/openwolfing more, which would make sense given how he got townread pretty early on easily for some small things and he didn't wanna mess that up

i understand that.. it may seem as though i'm implying that wolf visor would be "scared" to post which is not fully accurate, just rather that it would be optimal given the circumstances, so i am sorry if this reasoning comes across as patronising >.< i think visor is a good wolf but i'm still a little sketched

didistetter
05-09-2025, 08:14
Whats your thoughts on visor

I liked his eod generally, and I think him joining me on rask was towny when w!visor can easily justify going on arctic. I think his posting has been in line with what i've seen from him before. I liked him trying to talk yall into scumming me and it felt like he was genuinely trying to understand why people TR me as opposed to a wolf being salty that I was getting townread.

(caveat idk if i've actually even seen w!visor)

didistetter
05-09-2025, 08:15
It might be slightly unclear where I'm at:

Benneh/Stett/Dya
Arctic/Lissa
Visor/Maple/waza
Annika/Ladd/Ender/Taffy

I would say that there is't a single player who would be a blatant wolf. You're playing well. So, my Poe is more the least towny people than Wolfy players.

why do you have maple and waza as townier than annika and ladd?

didistetter
05-09-2025, 08:17
Btw Is there a way to count my posts and to isolate players?

if you go to main gameroom and click "replies" next to the thread you can see your postcount. You can also iso any person by clicking on their postcount.

you do need to know what # of posts you ended on d1 for that tho

pzelda
05-09-2025, 08:31
why do you have maple and waza as townier than annika and ladd?

Waza is for their D1 activity, moving the game forward early on. I only want to open them again, if I find everyone bellow them to be towns.
Maple is just... Mantis isn't an easy player to read. But I actually liked that eod and sticking to guns. It makes sense Mantis is in the Poe but I also feel a little bit wrong about that.

Also, I wanted to make a point that the bottom four are the first players to look at for me.

Visor probably should be one tier above them in a tier of his own.

Lissa
05-09-2025, 08:39
Ender writing this kinda makes me thing he's just a villa.

It's a pretty mundane and fairly obvious mech observation, why?


Not gonna quote the full post cause i am on phone but manti can tryhard as a wolf and they can slank, assuming they would try hard or push an agenda is wrong iyam

I have seen them troll eods as a wolf and i dont really think they were in a position to push a mislunch and neither to grab credit by voting rask (tho its arfuable how much credit there even is to grab voting a 0 poster eheh)

My thing is specifically that she's tryharding but specifically in a really unproductive way if she's a wolf and I'm pretty sure she would really want to win this game/in this playerlist as a wolf and approach it differently. Like including the leadup that got her to the point she was at at eod, not just eod itself.


don't think it's unreasonable. But also i wasn't actually interested in killing him eod. Ack your thoughts on maple. That's kinda where i'm at with her too. Her play doesn't really... seem conducive to winning as a wolf? espec with an afk teammate. If taffy is a wolf that probs just means wolves weren't in a great spot regardless, but in that world I'm assuming the third would be highest investment given the bother to fakeclaim.

Dunno.

I'm having a bit of a hard time landing on a team of two that feels ~right~ rn


EnderWiggin could you talk me through what about arctic you don't like?

Fair enough.

Agree finding a team that feels right is hard atm


Btw Is there a way to count my posts and to isolate players?

Vote counts have your postcount for the day

Can see overall postcount and iso players by going to the subforim/thread list and clicking the # of posts itt

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 09:11
Why was waza's eod towny in your eyes? Benneh and others has been scrutinizing waza for that switch.

Because it makes no narrative sense after his constant unvote/vote signalling to try and get people to vote Rask.

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 09:54
EnderWiggin could you talk me through what about arctic you don't like?

didistetter
First post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863625&viewfull=1#post2053863625) - This is the read on me that I've been harping on about. Makes a shade-centric observation. "Idk if this is uncharitable" and then basically suggests I'm posting differently "flavoured" to when he was wolf and he + DZ voted me out when I was town.

Second post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863652&viewfull=1#post2053863652) - I call him out on it and he then admits he "Knew it was uncharitable" and intentionally tries to point out how he wasn't really pushing it as if that's a defense. (Which 1. puts lie to the "Idk if it is uncharitable" line and 2. if you're shading someone usually the point is that you're trying to make OTHER PEOPLE be the direct attackers while you have just pushed it subtly in the background.)

Third post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863662&viewfull=1#post2053863662) - Shading Visor after Visor is generally townread (Visor has in recent times been potential miselim bait due to not caring about putting effort in, something I vibe with strongly.) and also backing down off me after I have shown my teeth.

Fourth post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863762&viewfull=1#post2053863762) - This one feels like trying to poke another to a conclusion that he's annoyed they haven't reached but this one is ~meh. I'm mostly including it because he makes a deal about someone's alignment with his reads. Which is relevant for the follow up:

Fifth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863782&viewfull=1#post2053863782) - Because when Dya pointed out how Arctic is sussing her despite having generally aligned reads his reaction is to:
Sixth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863783&viewfull=1#post2053863783) - ONCE AGAIN the person he has poe'd/shaded/sussed comes back at him for how odd it is or how uncharitable it is and the response is to placate. "I don't really sus you tbh" instead of the response to me, but I felt like it was an echo.

Seventh Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863871&viewfull=1#post2053863871) - Now instead of "Feeling like there's a difference between my shitposting last time" he's now backed down to "I just am saying I could see myself shrug yeeting you cause idk any way to read you." The backpeddling to seem reasonable is the real reason I sunk my teeth into this and don't want to let go.

Eighth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863888&viewfull=1#post2053863888) - "It's not just that I disagree with your reads"
Ninth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863899&viewfull=1#post2053863899) - "i think other players have been townier and i disagree with his reads"
(Also I have always hated "I disagree with your reads" as a wolfread because how often do two town get different reads on things? Very often. Even amongst good players.)

This is mostly included because I feel like it fits with the placation to the person he's sussing while just straight up shading them to others with buzzword statements.

As for his EOD, It basically is mainly the following:
1. A weird request for Taffy to find wolves or die
2. A immediate bad reaction to the claim
3. "I don't believe taffy at all but 2 of my biggest suspects are voting her so idk"
4. Waffles around then puts down "I'd vote any of taffy/maple/ladd/rask" (Note: He does not vote Rask)
5. Has been waffling around on the claim but as soon as he starts getting votes instantly goes nuclear on trying to revitalise it against Taffy

I don't think that EOD is particularly wolfy tbh. It's kinda midline for me. The Rask note is like hindsight not ~great but also not that damning either.

My point is idk why that seems to be universally townread.

But again, it's very possible I'm miles deep in the tunnel and not seeing things clearly.

I definitely can get that way.

waza
05-09-2025, 10:52
Hmmmm taffy still not here

Time to tunnel the 0 poster v2

Vote:Taffy

Gemma
05-09-2025, 10:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Stu7h7Qup8

:bow: Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0 :bow:
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 781


VotesTargetVoters (Posts in Phase)
1Totally not Taffywaza (12 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864168&viewfull=1#post2053864168))
1Mapledidistetter (13 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864094&viewfull=1#post2053864094))
1Arcticnebjiamn (18 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864128&viewfull=1#post2053864128))
10Not VotingArctic (15), EnderWiggin (7), Lissa (5), Maple (7), Totally not Taffy (0), Visor (2), annika (3), dyachei (2), ladd (13), pzelda (10)

waza
05-09-2025, 11:00
Ngl, I do hope that taffy flips town

waza
05-09-2025, 11:03
But yeah it’s kinda hard to believe a supposed pr hasn’t checked in by now to check if they got nkd, give feedback of night actions or to clarify stuff about their role if necessary (it’s necessary)

Totally not Taffy
05-09-2025, 11:37
Lol

Kinda feels like a cheap victory but a lim’s a lim tbh. NGL afk maf makes a lot of sense with general thread vibes and townyness levels.

Waza ending on taffy is something I have to think about, but I doubt he pushes the afk all day shruge.
nebjiamn is there a way to get the ICs to display order of voting or would that be too pain?

GG sunbae <3 sorry you got n1d tho :(

curious to hear from ladd, maple, ender mostly.

Also nothing bout anticlaim in that flip, sooooo probs time to expand a bit on your role taffy

You look at Rask's flip:


Raskolnikov was:

You are (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyRatFogE0U)
Gloria Coates is top of all the lists. Her symphonies barely register as symphonies, instead they feel like a single, complex sound, which emerges from a crater in the Earth, changing and growing as the creature making the sound shifts slowly in the crust, or which looms watchfully out of sight behind the clouds. More than any other composer or musician, Gloria creates music not out of notes but out of raw feeling.

You are Demolitions Expert

You win when your team reaches parity with Town and no other threats to your team remain.

You have the following abilities:

Each night, target a player (you may self-target). If they are the same alignment as you, defuse any bombs strapped to them. You are told when you successfully defuse a bomb. If you target a villager with a bomb strapped to them on the night they die, only their alignment will be shown when they flip.[/spoiler]

Then you look at my iso, and you come across these posts:


This is not a flavour claim. Good [S]morning noontime all ~:wave:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04F4xlWSFh0

Taffy (1)

This was not a flavour claim, it was mech claim, and



good point new plan

hardclaim bomb inventor

I volunteer as tribute :tnt:

I promise I will not pick you :flowers:

Taffy (8)

If you see Rask as a Mafia Firefighter (flavoured around bombs, and with a twist), then I'm the Town Arsonist (flavoured around bombs, and with a twist)

If I am lying, the real town bomb layer can simply bomb me. You should treat me as IC :holiday:

Taffy (1)

didistetter
05-09-2025, 11:44
Totally not Taffy and what made you so certain about anticlaim?

didistetter
05-09-2025, 11:45
good point new plan

hardclaim bomb inventor

uh hang on a sec lol

so Maple you knew bombs were a thing.....

:inquisitive:

Totally not Taffy
05-09-2025, 11:48
I was really frustrated at having to claim yesterday bc I thought we were giving the wolves extra kp but since they apparently don't have it I am rather happy with the situation bc now we can crowdsource my targets ~:grouphug:

I was initially going to do the right thing and holster N1 and possibly N2 bc my early reads are crap but given that I thought I might die I targeted Arctic last night. Seeing that Sunbae's rolecard says nothing about anticlaim it is now likely that Arctic is a PR who reasonably thought I was lying, but to me he looked like a wolf who went "we don't have an ability named anti-claim, this is a lying VT" and figured he could get me over.

I still think given how Arctic played D1 that the latter might be the case but I'm not going to push it bc if and when my bombs go off, either Arctic dies and we'll know or he's the one Sunbae died protecting (bc my bomb would've been redirected onto Sunbae and died with him) in which case he's town.

So we can solve around Arctic for the time being.

Taffy (2)

didistetter
05-09-2025, 11:49
I volunteer as tribute :tnt:

I promise I will not pick you :flowers:

Taffy (8)

Totally not Taffy why didn't this message frmo maple concern you at all if you're a bomb arso?

Totally not Taffy
05-09-2025, 11:50
uh hang on a sec lol

so Maple you knew bombs were a thing.....

:inquisitive:

I had that same thought, but I don't think Maple would've defended me EoD1 when Rask was being voted if they were wolf buddies

Taffy (3)

didistetter
05-09-2025, 12:01
taff and i -- i think -- have only played one game together? where we were w/w. But like, we didnt really *interact* in that game, so all yall talking about meta with her or w/e is beyond me, gonna take it on cred and deposite it in the bank (this is fraud). My personal read is "shrug dont really care". Dya is just getting into things, and I'm back and forth on them. Don't feel like elaborating rn, plus idt it matters?l.




Oh ffs I'm PR and there's anti-claim get off you dunces

How many ways can I soft it

Ohhhhhhhhh THATS what you meant

Lmao


You really think I need an excuse to vote a twink like you? cmon
50

2 minutes how are we kiling taf lol sheep me on this one yall

Totally not Taffy these were the only times maple came anywhere near to mentioning you lol. I'm not sure if you're misreading the last message but she wasn't defending you. Lissa and I explicitly pushed to dismantle the wagon on you and Maple through this out when we were already explicitly not limming you.

She wasn't saying sheep me on taffy town
She was asking us to sheep her on slaughtering annika


I'm confused how you're processing eod. Because it was: wagon on you -> you claim. -> i vote ladd, ben and maybe others followed -> sunbae claims -> mild panic -> annika pushes maple, maple pushes annika, arctic pushes you -> waza keeps voting and unvoting and trying to signal like a traffic light -> i say fuck this let's shrugyeet the 0 poster -> we shrug yeet the zero poster.

if anything manti instantly realizing you were crumbing looks worse given maf had mech knowledge of bombs.

waza
05-09-2025, 12:12
You look at Rask's flip:



Then you look at my iso, and you come across these posts:



This was not a flavour claim, it was mech claim, and



If you see Rask as a Mafia Firefighter (flavoured around bombs, and with a twist), then I'm the Town Arsonist (flavoured around bombs, and with a twist)

If I am lying, the real town bomb layer can simply bomb me. You should treat me as IC :holiday:

Taffy (1)

Unvote:taffy

Seems legit enough

I’ll reread tmrw and figure out where I wanna go

Totally not Taffy
05-09-2025, 12:16
Totally not Taffy these were the only times maple came anywhere near to mentioning you lol. I'm not sure if you're misreading the last message but she wasn't defending you. Lissa and I explicitly pushed to dismantle the wagon on you and Maple through this out when we were already explicitly not limming you.

She wasn't saying sheep me on taffy town
She was asking us to sheep her on slaughtering annika


I'm confused how you're processing eod. Because it was: wagon on you -> you claim. -> i vote ladd, ben and maybe others followed -> sunbae claims -> mild panic -> annika pushes maple, maple pushes annika, arctic pushes you -> waza keeps voting and unvoting and trying to signal like a traffic light -> i say fuck this let's shrugyeet the 0 poster -> we shrug yeet the zero poster.

if anything manti instantly realizing you were crumbing looks worse given maf had mech knowledge of bombs.

I do take those posts as her believing me and saying not to kill me
ymmv

You're right though that one of the ppl defending me might very well have been a wolf but I'd lean you or Lissa over Maple

Taffy (4)

ladd
05-09-2025, 12:26
Claim seems believable

Lettuce see tho

Visor
05-09-2025, 12:28
2. ladd
4. didistetter
6. nebjiamn
7. Maple
8. Lissa
9. Arctic
10. waza
11. Taffy
12. Ender
13. annika
14. dyachei
15. pzelda

Thread generally thinks Lissa and pzelda are clear

I think decent chance dya is clear

I'm reversing path on arctic, believe they believed their group of three was v and was struggling to figure out who is actually pulling the strings and I fit that bill easily

Annika improved over the day phase and voted wolf

Taffy pr

Ender possible wolf but also played in a way that was low ev

Maple played in a low ev way

Waza honestly no super strong impression but seems ok

Stett y'all think is clear

Then who's left?

Wolves are ladd and benneh

Potential for fourth wolf which is possibly ender (or perhaps someone we are thread clearing to easily)

Thinking about arctica D1 and how eod played out

vote: nebjiamn

Visor
05-09-2025, 12:29
The way benneh pushing for maple and how things are playing out seems Wolfy to me

didistetter
05-09-2025, 12:54
I do take those posts as her believing me and saying not to kill me
ymmv

You're right though that one of the ppl defending me might very well have been a wolf but I'd lean you or Lissa over Maple

Taffy (4)

:wowee:

why?

and maple did not defend you. Please read back eod. Maple's focus was entirely OMGUSing annika and shading arctic.



visor be so fr what

why is ben wolf if your other reads are "thread thinks lissa and pzelda are clear" "yall think stett is clear" "waza is forgettable" "maple and ender are playing low ev"

what do YOU think

how does ben's play fit wolf agenda?

didistetter
05-09-2025, 12:55
The way benneh pushing for maple and how things are playing out seems Wolfy to me

does...

does maple

claiming bomb inventor d1

when we have a flipped wolf bomb diffuser
and taffy claiming bomb arso

not seem sus to you at all???????

didistetter
05-09-2025, 12:58
also in no world is ladd/benneh ever a team benneh literally followed me onto ladd when i snapped there after taffy PR claimed

:lam:

Visor
05-09-2025, 13:15
does...

does maple

claiming bomb inventor d1

when we have a flipped wolf bomb diffuser
and taffy claiming bomb arso

not seem sus to you at all???????

It's post 63 who cares

Visor
05-09-2025, 13:16
The focus on maple is Wolfy

didistetter
05-09-2025, 13:19
The focus on maple is Wolfy

how?

Visor
05-09-2025, 13:52
how?

Because people pushing there are reducing their scope to only her

See bennehs entrance today

It's focusing not around a larger picture of understanding the game but setting up then to take the heat today as a focal point of discussion

Today is going to be a black hole if we let it go that way

Lissa day and pzelda seem ok to me as I have said

I'm not sold on you being v but if enough people are saying they think otherwise I ain't ever gonna be able to get you killed

Maples not a bad wolf, them getting into the pants pissing argument with Annika is dumb if they think it will get them any chance of survival and they know that people ain't gonna give them clearance for it and certainly weren't D1

especially if rask is afk what's their endgame? How do they expect to win the game

Ender is whatever could easily be a wolf

Waza is not forgettable that's not what I said, I think they are ok

So I'm at you, ladd, benneh, ender

And there's definiteky potential for me to be misleading arctic but I can also see how they would come to their read on me and I think I understand it

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 13:57
2. ladd
4. didistetter
6. nebjiamn
7. Maple
8. Lissa
9. Arctic
10. waza
11. Taffy
12. Ender
13. annika
14. dyachei
15. pzelda

Thread generally thinks Lissa and pzelda are clear

I think decent chance dya is clear

I'm reversing path on arctic, believe they believed their group of three was v and was struggling to figure out who is actually pulling the strings and I fit that bill easily

Annika improved over the day phase and voted wolf

Taffy pr

Ender possible wolf but also played in a way that was low ev

Maple played in a low ev way

Waza honestly no super strong impression but seems ok

Stett y'all think is clear

Then who's left?

Wolves are ladd and benneh

Potential for fourth wolf which is possibly ender (or perhaps someone we are thread clearing to easily)

Thinking about arctica D1 and how eod played out

vote: nebjiamn

if that's your poe why would you ever think i'm the correct first vote here lol

annika
05-09-2025, 14:06
Btw Is there a way to count my posts and to isolate players?

pzelda at the top of the page, click Search Thread -> Advanced Search

then in the User Name bar, type in whoever's username you want to ISO. if you type your own name, you can check how many posts you have in the thread so far (but it won't separate by day)

hope this helps! ^^ sorry if someone answered already, I haven't finished catching up yet

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 14:09
Because people pushing there are reducing their scope to only her

See bennehs entrance today

It's focusing not around a larger picture of understanding the game but setting up then to take the heat today as a focal point of discussion



this is factually incorrect. can you actually read my post again? i don't think you comprehended it at all.

i think your judgement is clouded on the basis of a terrible starting point on maple (even if maple is town). i pretty clearly have a wider view of the game than just 'kill maple' but you seem to have taken that entire sod post and distilled it into where i revealed who my top wolf in a poe was, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a wider consideration of the game state and it is actually quite literally the opposite.

ladd and ender are good POEs in a world you don't want to consider maple but you're going off the deep end and actually getting lost in the sauce beyond that.

additionally, i think you are wrong about how the thread generally thinks lissa is clear? lissa and yourself are objectively (based off check in posts so far) the least cleared players off the rask wagon. i think there is definitely room for her to be wolf and i think its weird you are letting that be the basis for your lissa read

what are your actual reads idgi lol, you output most of these like you had to generate excuses you dont believe in

annika
05-09-2025, 14:14
Eighth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863888&viewfull=1#post2053863888) - "It's not just that I disagree with your reads"
Ninth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863899&viewfull=1#post2053863899) - "i think other players have been townier and i disagree with his reads"
(Also I have always hated "I disagree with your reads" as a wolfread because how often do two town get different reads on things? Very often. Even amongst good players.)

EnderWiggin you cut off the eighth post

he's saying "it's not just that I disagree with your reads, [it's that you haven't even looked in the direction of my reads]" basically; he's using it as emphasis

annika
05-09-2025, 14:17
uh hang on a sec lol

so Maple you knew bombs were a thing.....

:inquisitive:

gosh you are so townie lol

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 14:21
I was really frustrated at having to claim yesterday bc I thought we were giving the wolves extra kp but since they apparently don't have it I am rather happy with the situation bc now we can crowdsource my targets ~:grouphug:

I was initially going to do the right thing and holster N1 and possibly N2 bc my early reads are crap but given that I thought I might die I targeted Arctic last night. Seeing that Sunbae's rolecard says nothing about anticlaim it is now likely that Arctic is a PR who reasonably thought I was lying, but to me he looked like a wolf who went "we don't have an ability named anti-claim, this is a lying VT" and figured he could get me over.

I still think given how Arctic played D1 that the latter might be the case but I'm not going to push it bc if and when my bombs go off, either Arctic dies and we'll know or he's the one Sunbae died protecting (bc my bomb would've been redirected onto Sunbae and died with him) in which case he's town.

So we can solve around Arctic for the time being.

Taffy (2)

someone else prob mentioned it but i think its reasonable that the town arsonist would get some sort of message about there being a counter to their night action given rask's role


but i also think its probably worth noting that in previous gemma games on the org though (i think it was a gemma game?) there were roles in the game that alluded to the existence of others that some people found kind of game breaking because it allowed someone to claim a role that didnt exist but feasibly should have given a prior PR flip

so ya




Totally not Taffy arctic already claimed NOT a PR so I think there may be some value to just igniting even if i think arctic is town, kinda in the same way you wouldn't heal a villager's poison. imo we should talk about a bit more since you are unlikely to survive past today given you are KP (unlss wolves have an RB)

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 14:22
someone else prob mentioned it but i think its reasonable that the town arsonist would get some sort of message about there being a counter to their night action given rask's role


but i also think its probably worth noting that in previous gemma games on the org though (i think it was a gemma game?) there were roles in the game that alluded to the existence of others that some people found kind of game breaking because it allowed someone to claim a role that didnt exist but feasibly should have given a prior PR flip

so ya




@Totally not Taffy (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=102455) arctic already claimed NOT a PR so I think there may be some value to just igniting even if i think arctic is town, kinda in the same way you wouldn't heal a villager's poison. imo we should talk about a bit more since you are unlikely to survive past today given you are KP (unlss wolves have an RB)

everyone should comment on this, not just taffy

ladd
05-09-2025, 14:23
Benneh isnt a wolf

Enders post wrt arctic i didnt like, seems like he started from the conclusion (which i guess is somewhat true lol) and then is trying to justify it vs giving arctic a genujne read. I am not good at reading ender tho

Visor
05-09-2025, 14:25
if that's your poe why would you ever think i'm the correct first vote here lol

Because it gets the people going

waza
05-09-2025, 14:28
Lol don’t ignite Arctic

waza
05-09-2025, 14:58
Vote:lissa

Visor
05-09-2025, 15:00
Vote:lissa

Why lissa

Gemma
05-09-2025, 15:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zTbVRPh5EI

:bow: Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0 :bow:
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 815


VotesTargetVoters (Posts in Phase)
1Lissawaza (17 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864202&viewfull=1#post2053864202))
1Mapledidistetter (21 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864094&viewfull=1#post2053864094))
1Arcticnebjiamn (22 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864128&viewfull=1#post2053864128))
1nebjiamnVisor (9 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864182&viewfull=1#post2053864182))
9Not VotingArctic (15), EnderWiggin (7), Lissa (5), Maple (7), Totally not Taffy (4), annika (6), dyachei (2), ladd (15), pzelda (10)

waza
05-09-2025, 15:39
Why lissa

idk lol

u/ladd were my designated tinfoils if taffy seemed town

u seemed towny enough last couple of pages and errrr im not worried about ladd cos i know people are just gonna hound his ass all game regardless of alignment

maple seems fine enough ig

ender is townreading me all game and i like it, doesnt neccessarily make him town though

so it really just boils down to if i think theres 2 wolves in that pool......and im like errrr maybe? but im not really convinced it has to be the case either, and plus i think most of those names should get got before me lmao, unless someone gets hell tunneled but thats on them not me if that happens

so yaaa this is a big lead up to a very disappointing finish where i just say im shrugging and trying to aim for the wolf i lose to now rather than later before its too late, not convinced it has to be lissa but im just testing the waters. mostly just boiled down to me looking back at eod votes, trying to think what wolves would be doing and what their wincons would be. lissas vote on rask seemed pretty random so yah i voted there and will see what happens or how i feel in the morning or after ive read the game some more

Maple
05-09-2025, 15:43
:wowee:

why?

and maple did not defend you. Please read back eod. Maple's focus was entirely OMGUSing annika and shading arctic.



visor be so fr what

why is ben wolf if your other reads are "thread thinks lissa and pzelda are clear" "yall think stett is clear" "waza is forgettable" "maple and ender are playing low ev"

what do YOU think

how does ben's play fit wolf agenda?
When did I shade arctic hello?

Maple
05-09-2025, 15:45
does...

does maple

claiming bomb inventor d1

when we have a flipped wolf bomb diffuser
and taffy claiming bomb arso

not seem sus to you at all???????

So you're legitimately missing the part

Where waza is there

Whom I role swapped bomb inventor with last game?

Maple
05-09-2025, 15:51
i didn't spend much time alive in pokemash lol i don't really remember a whole lot of the lategame events

just peeked a deep wolf and died ez

hey we were both villas in hsr right before that too that's not tooooo long


good point new plan

hardclaim bomb inventor

You can't be fr rn lol

waza
05-09-2025, 15:53
idk lol

u/ladd were my designated tinfoils if taffy seemed town

u seemed towny enough last couple of pages and errrr im not worried about ladd cos i know people are just gonna hound his ass all game regardless of alignment

maple seems fine enough ig

ender is townreading me all game and i like it, doesnt neccessarily make him town though

so it really just boils down to if i think theres 2 wolves in that pool......and im like errrr maybe? but im not really convinced it has to be the case either, and plus i think most of those names should get got before me lmao, unless someone gets hell tunneled but thats on them not me if that happens

so yaaa this is a big lead up to a very disappointing finish where i just say im shrugging and trying to aim for the wolf i lose to now rather than later before its too late, not convinced it has to be lissa but im just testing the waters. mostly just boiled down to me looking back at eod votes, trying to think what wolves would be doing and what their wincons would be. lissas vote on rask seemed pretty random so yah i voted there and will see what happens or how i feel in the morning or after ive read the game some more

ig one of the things with ladd is that for me to believe hes a wolf i have to accept thats hes played against his own wincon during this game lmao

hes a smart gui, probs one of the smartest i met on fm so i somewhat expect him to be aware of how certain things would play out if hes a wolf

and if hes a wolf that means hes townsided unnecessarily to his own detriment at times (im going off vague memory so ill need to fact check)

like if ben is town which i think he is, then lads shielded me ben sunbae from getting heat when we were vulnerable. ok sure i somewhat forced him into townreading me so that doesnt count as much, and if ben is town hes the type of town that i imagine anyone with tmi would have a really hard time trying to justify a sr on

but with sunbae, there was a moment where sunbae was getting alota heat, and ladd spoke out against it and has been vocal against pushing the taffy wagon. the thing is though, if ladds a wolf hes well aware that hes on a timer, and that people have vocally expressed if taffy is town they'll push him. so its in ladds benefit to delay the taffy flip as long as he can,rrather then reinforce it. so for example when haru gets pushed, ladd is much better off just doing literally anything other than what he did lmao.

tbf one of the last times i tried to apply a wolf strategy read on someone it failed (twice) but i dont remember many other times its backfired. im not outright clearing ladd and will obv keep an open eye, its just i cant really figure out what his game plan would be as wolf, i can make a similar case for maple albeit i find it less convincing so i probs wont unless i feel stronger about it

waza
05-09-2025, 15:55
btw i mean the player twice shrunk when i said (twice)

Maple
05-09-2025, 15:55
[/B]
everyone should comment on this, not just taffy

Bg is dead so it's likely use it or lose it

However 1x kp puts us on Evens, effectively turning a vote into a sleep and a dead arctic

From taffy pov igniting is optimal tonight, most lokely

annika
05-09-2025, 16:06
Totally not Taffy arctic already claimed NOT a PR so I think there may be some value to just igniting even if i think arctic is town, kinda in the same way you wouldn't heal a villager's poison. imo we should talk about a bit more since you are unlikely to survive past today given you are KP (unlss wolves have an RB)

everyone should comment on this, not just taffy

hmm
my thoughts on this: I think Arctic is very likely town personally. and igniting doesn't really save us a kill, unless wolves have KP/town has more KP, because it goes to even numbers and we'd need to vote Sleep like Maple said

however, I do understand that Arctic might be voted later. so I propose treating it like another elimination; if people want Arctic to get ignited because they think he's mafia, not because it's optimal, then they should say that

cus again, idt it's optimal if it goes to even numbers. it doesn't give or lose an elimination unless there's more PR stuff to worry about
Maple how is it optimal from Taffy's PoV?

waza
05-09-2025, 16:06
ladd what do you make of the way lissa has posted wrt your slot, and her amenability to me suggesting a eod flashwagon on afk ladd for no reason other than someone claiming pr and dipping?

im kinda struggling with that dynamic, especially considering she +1d me telling arctic to not lim taffy, but seemed willing to flash an afk who frankly had no business being a d1 wagon

didistetter can u link me this pls n ty

waza
05-09-2025, 16:11
vote:visor

Maple
05-09-2025, 16:14
hmm
my thoughts on this: I think Arctic is very likely town personally. and igniting doesn't really save us a kill, unless wolves have KP/town has more KP, because it goes to even numbers and we'd need to vote Sleep like Maple said

however, I do understand that Arctic might be voted later. so I propose treating it like another elimination; if people want Arctic to get ignited because they think he's mafia, not because it's optimal, then they should say that

cus again, idt it's optimal if it goes to even numbers. it doesn't give or lose an elimination unless there's more PR stuff to worry about
Maple how is it optimal from Taffy's PoV?

Taffy is town kp role. She wolf reads arctic and believes it'll plausibly flip wolf. From that PoV it is better to more efficiently use the ignite because the role will not get further value.

It's effectively a situation of "taffy poisoned artic last night, but also holds a heal"

And you generally just let poisons kill when made by q villager, specifically due to kill effeciency reasons.

All that said, it really is something you can go either way on.

annika
05-09-2025, 16:14
that might actually not matter if Taffy's bombs going off is mandatory though (this kinda feels like it might be the case based on how it's a bomber rather than an arso)

in which case rip Arcy

if that's how it works Totally not Taffy I'd bomb Maple :3
if you don't wanna since you still TR her, hmm. it might be worth just killing the counterwagon?

that kinda sucks though lol because I do think all the people that will be counterwagons today like Ladd/waza are v. I mean personally I pref Maple so that's my vote, if youre taking votes (I might change my mind today in which case I'll ping you w/ it, but this is just what I'm thinking atm)

Maple
05-09-2025, 16:23
WOW she hates me sob

ladd
05-09-2025, 16:51
Completely random thought - ender sounds like someone id enjoy drinking beer(s) with



I wouldnt kill arctic

I am still confused by some taffy stuff (why soft pr in your first post if u think/know there is anticlaim, why even soft pr as a pr) but their claim should just be clearing/self resolving i think


Visor/lissa is a fun team thats prolly not real...but would be fun :curtain:

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 16:56
ig one of the things with ladd is that for me to believe hes a wolf i have to accept thats hes played against his own wincon during this game lmao

hes a smart gui, probs one of the smartest i met on fm so i somewhat expect him to be aware of how certain things would play out if hes a wolf

and if hes a wolf that means hes townsided unnecessarily to his own detriment at times (im going off vague memory so ill need to fact check)

like if ben is town which i think he is, then lads shielded me ben sunbae from getting heat when we were vulnerable. ok sure i somewhat forced him into townreading me so that doesnt count as much, and if ben is town hes the type of town that i imagine anyone with tmi would have a really hard time trying to justify a sr on

but with sunbae, there was a moment where sunbae was getting alota heat, and ladd spoke out against it and has been vocal against pushing the taffy wagon. the thing is though, if ladds a wolf hes well aware that hes on a timer, and that people have vocally expressed if taffy is town they'll push him. so its in ladds benefit to delay the taffy flip as long as he can,rrather then reinforce it. so for example when haru gets pushed, ladd is much better off just doing literally anything other than what he did lmao.

tbf one of the last times i tried to apply a wolf strategy read on someone it failed (twice) but i dont remember many other times its backfired. im not outright clearing ladd and will obv keep an open eye, its just i cant really figure out what his game plan would be as wolf, i can make a similar case for maple albeit i find it less convincing so i probs wont unless i feel stronger about it

waza, i thikn i'm starting to see a pattern with you and I think you value people calling townreads a way of townsiding. i won't say you value it too highly, its more just me realizing what you value

but IMHO, those kinds of takes are silly for a wolf because ladd has to have townreads on people?

lets go through who you mentioned:

1) he townread me. he gets 0 credit for this, he would even tell you, he has never pushed me incorrectly or failed to clear me correctly. i have fooled him a few times, but the only times he's ever really been sus of me were when I was wolfing. i legitimately entered this game knowing near 100% certainty ladd would townread me regardless of his own alignment. in fact, i know he knows this meta so well, I was actually pre-emptively wondering if this would be the game he cashes in on the meta to try to sus me a bit (if he's wolf) and that's the only reason i wouldnt say is was absolutely 100% certain instead of near 100%

also i was never vulnerable day 1 lol.

tl;dr ladd sorta has to TR me until the one day he cashes in on the meta and we'll have to see if i'm keen on that or not, i was never in danger, he shouldn't really get towncred for 'townsiding' by tring me

re: sunbae -- i think you have a valid point, sunbae def was vulnerable

re: you (waza) -- i don't really know how vulnerable you were? you had lots of defenders besides ladd, similar to the way i did. neither you or i was ever a serious wagon during the day.

if i add these 3 reads up i don't think he was 'townsiding to his own detriment' in the worlds he is a wolf? he was pushing taffy all game while this happened?

i just sorta disagree with your assessment that because ladd is on a 'timer' that he wouldn't then push for taffy to die because then it puts the spotlight on him. that is literally his MO quite often BECAUSE he's on a timer.

i don't really think you can say he's played against his wincon if he's wolf. i think killing taffy d1 and getting 2 PR claims out of day 1 would have been excellent for w!ladd but we got lucky a wolf died d1 instead.

i still feel like a lot of his reads were non-collaborative in ways that feel mor elike his wolf self than not. i'm not deadset on him being wolf--i do think if he's town he's played a pretty good game for identifying lots of towns correctly, but i don't think its absurd to have him in the middle of the POE given the current game state and where his wolf reads landed

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 17:01
Completely random thought - ender sounds like someone id enjoy drinking beer(s) with



I wouldnt kill arctic

I am still confused by some taffy stuff (why soft pr in your first post if u think/know there is anticlaim, why even soft pr as a pr) but their claim should just be clearing/self resolving i think


Visor/lissa is a fun team thats prolly not real...but would be fun :curtain:

yea its odd. also calling it a flavor claim specifically? i agree it should be self resolving--but back to my point a few posts ago, is there a chance gemma runs the rask role with a wolf arsonist/bombplanter?

honestly I think that's something I might do in a game and gemma's roles are pretty non-standard + theres precedent of the inclusion of misleading roles/counter-roles

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 17:05
i wont lie i'm inclined to sheep my early inclination on maple + annika, especially as annika digs in deeper in the tunnel

"isn't playing +EV" isn't an inspiring towncase for someone who just came off 2(?) exhausting wolf rands and isn't being townie anyway

vote: maple

im curious to see how reads on ender/visor/ladd develop tho

Visor
05-09-2025, 17:45
Annika where you at

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 17:49
visor what are your thoughts on lissa's eod?

stett called out her vote on ladd as somewhat suspicious, what is your take on that?

and just any general thoughts on lissa beyond that, i kind of expect you to have the most apt take (besides dya and myself probly) on her and you kind of just shrug cleared her in your larger post

Visor
05-09-2025, 18:00
visor what are your thoughts on lissa's eod?

stett called out her vote on ladd as somewhat suspicious, what is your take on that?

and just any general thoughts on lissa beyond that, i kind of expect you to have the most apt take (besides dya and myself probly) on her and you kind of just shrug cleared her in your larger post

I got some thoughts but probably won't be able to share to a level I am comfortable with until tomorrow

On a general sense there are two worlds of thought regarding the rask vote

Lissa is more than capable of bussing a dead wolf, and it's impossible to defend rask, so I don't see it as super clearing especially because she literally just did a similar move

But it should also be relatively simple to just not say anything re rask and it's not like others were talking about him

It's something I need to ruminate on a bit, I tended to agree with sunbaes read there and probably still do, but want to dot some is and cross some ts first

annika
05-09-2025, 18:11
Annika where you at

wrt to Maple: I've read over both your and Lissa's reasons for doubting she's a wolf here, and I get it, but it's not quite convincing to me. possibly because it's a meta thing and I'm not too familiar with Maple

from my PoV she did kinda push wolf agenda though, because I was a viable wagon that Lissa was voting on (at least) and Ben projected a strong-ish wolfread on me for a while before postcapping; she could reasonably think that push could go through at EoD

the main thing in her favour is that she didn't vote Arctic, but... FMPOV it's like townreading her for townsiding *at all*. she didn't do anything to defend his wagon at the very least. she also didn't do much to defend Taffy besides say "how are we going Taf here" after she claimed PR lol

I think giving her cred for not voting Taffy is like insane imo she was LITERALLY a PR claim asdgfkldashgkj and Maple PoE'd her before the claim

there's not much else you can do to wolfside at EoD besides push on Taffy (a claimed PR), so it's really just that she didn't vote Arctic. and that would've been at odds with her read list in 476 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863855&viewfull=1#post2053863855) anyway ^^;

imo she just exhausted her options when both of the people at the bottom of her list claimed PR, she was stuck voting the third. maybe you can argue "why didn't she bus?" but meh that's WIFOM

(ftr this is just me explaining why the reasons to TR her aren't convincing to me, not that anything I'm mentioning here is explicitly wolfie—it goes either way, I just have other reasons to SR her)


in terms of my other reads... I still think Ben's v, and I've kinda been feeling better about Ender recently based on his wolfread of Arctic. Stett's/Waza's/Taffy's posting has kinda just reaffirmed my previous reads on them, so not much has rly changed for me besides Ender xD

Visor
05-09-2025, 18:15
Who do you want to kill besides maple

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 18:16
EnderWiggin you cut off the eighth post

he's saying "it's not just that I disagree with your reads, [it's that you haven't even looked in the direction of my reads]" basically; he's using it as emphasis

For him to reduce it to just disagree with reads when asked about it then just feels reductive.

Otherwise the original post wasn't actually something he cared about from Ladd and he just threw it out there.

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 18:18
Benneh isnt a wolf

Enders post wrt arctic i didnt like, seems like he started from the conclusion (which i guess is somewhat true lol) and then is trying to justify it vs giving arctic a genujne read. I am not good at reading ender tho

First three points were things I noted prior to having any real read.

I will full acknowledge I was primed towards wolfreading him by the end of that list of posts.

I do notice you have given 0 thought on my initial point at any point I've brought it up.

annika
05-09-2025, 18:19
Who do you want to kill besides maple

:3
idk actually, I think everyone's townie. Ender was the third in my solve yesterday but I'm not feeling it anymore

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 18:20
[/B]
everyone should comment on this, not just taffy

I think they should. Doesn't feel like that much of a debate or discussion so much as an obvious route.

But I'm also classically not good with PRs so shrug.

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 18:22
Completely random thought - ender sounds like someone id enjoy drinking beer(s) with



I wouldnt kill arctic

I am still confused by some taffy stuff (why soft pr in your first post if u think/know there is anticlaim, why even soft pr as a pr) but their claim should just be clearing/self resolving i think


Visor/lissa is a fun team thats prolly not real...but would be fun :curtain:

I am not even sure how you got to that thought but maybe. I tend to hate regular beer in a very unaustralian fashion though. I'm a cider person.

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 18:30
I buy Taffy's claim pretty well rn.

I think my POE is pretty much Maple/Lissa/Ladd/(Arctic)

I've put my Arctic stuff out there, if no one agrees with me I'll shrug and drop it for now because I don't have any way I can state it more persuasively and if everyone is saying I'm wrong then maybe I'm wrong.

Ladd gets added because I don't really feel like he's progressed in a way that makes me think town, but it's like ~not a strong read.

I still think Maple's narrow focus/small footprint EOD is very wolfy. I will happily champion this.

Lissa is just someone I think has been wolfy over-all. But probably is in the Arctic treatment in terms of at least two or three people have said what I was suspecting is just normal Lissa. That being said I don't think their EOD was great and they haven't done anything I find super towny so they can exist in a POE.

If I'm misclearing anyone atm it's probably in Dya (Because my ability to read them has always been kinda shoddy. I think I'm improving in the last 2/3 games we've played but wouldn't shock me if I've read em wrong.) or Waza (Because the snow leopard is tricksy and speaks sparkly words. I've definitely been wooed by them before so I tend to keep some tinfoil in the closet.)

EnderWiggin
05-09-2025, 18:31
Actually maybe Benneh is someone I've not thought about.

I'll reread after I sleep.

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:09
didistetter
First post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863625&viewfull=1#post2053863625) - This is the read on me that I've been harping on about. Makes a shade-centric observation. "Idk if this is uncharitable" and then basically suggests I'm posting differently "flavoured" to when he was wolf and he + DZ voted me out when I was town.

Second post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863652&viewfull=1#post2053863652) - I call him out on it and he then admits he "Knew it was uncharitable" and intentionally tries to point out how he wasn't really pushing it as if that's a defense. (Which 1. puts lie to the "Idk if it is uncharitable" line and 2. if you're shading someone usually the point is that you're trying to make OTHER PEOPLE be the direct attackers while you have just pushed it subtly in the background.)

Third post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863662&viewfull=1#post2053863662) - Shading Visor after Visor is generally townread (Visor has in recent times been potential miselim bait due to not caring about putting effort in, something I vibe with strongly.) and also backing down off me after I have shown my teeth.

Fourth post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863762&viewfull=1#post2053863762) - This one feels like trying to poke another to a conclusion that he's annoyed they haven't reached but this one is ~meh. I'm mostly including it because he makes a deal about someone's alignment with his reads. Which is relevant for the follow up:

Fifth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863782&viewfull=1#post2053863782) - Because when Dya pointed out how Arctic is sussing her despite having generally aligned reads his reaction is to:
Sixth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863783&viewfull=1#post2053863783) - ONCE AGAIN the person he has poe'd/shaded/sussed comes back at him for how odd it is or how uncharitable it is and the response is to placate. "I don't really sus you tbh" instead of the response to me, but I felt like it was an echo.

Seventh Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863871&viewfull=1#post2053863871) - Now instead of "Feeling like there's a difference between my shitposting last time" he's now backed down to "I just am saying I could see myself shrug yeeting you cause idk any way to read you." The backpeddling to seem reasonable is the real reason I sunk my teeth into this and don't want to let go.

Eighth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863888&viewfull=1#post2053863888) - "It's not just that I disagree with your reads"
Ninth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863899&viewfull=1#post2053863899) - "i think other players have been townier and i disagree with his reads"
(Also I have always hated "I disagree with your reads" as a wolfread because how often do two town get different reads on things? Very often. Even amongst good players.)

This is mostly included because I feel like it fits with the placation to the person he's sussing while just straight up shading them to others with buzzword statements.

As for his EOD, It basically is mainly the following:
1. A weird request for Taffy to find wolves or die
2. A immediate bad reaction to the claim
3. "I don't believe taffy at all but 2 of my biggest suspects are voting her so idk"
4. Waffles around then puts down "I'd vote any of taffy/maple/ladd/rask" (Note: He does not vote Rask)
5. Has been waffling around on the claim but as soon as he starts getting votes instantly goes nuclear on trying to revitalise it against Taffy

I don't think that EOD is particularly wolfy tbh. It's kinda midline for me. The Rask note is like hindsight not ~great but also not that damning either.

My point is idk why that seems to be universally townread.

But again, it's very possible I'm miles deep in the tunnel and not seeing things clearly.

I definitely can get that way.

I thought your read was based on one thing that you just didn't want to let go? I don't really hate the things that you're actually calling out here like, on principle, but I'm more confused about why you now have this whole case on the rest of my behaviour when it was just one thing you didn't like

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:16
I was really frustrated at having to claim yesterday bc I thought we were giving the wolves extra kp but since they apparently don't have it I am rather happy with the situation bc now we can crowdsource my targets ~:grouphug:

I was initially going to do the right thing and holster N1 and possibly N2 bc my early reads are crap but given that I thought I might die I targeted Arctic last night. Seeing that Sunbae's rolecard says nothing about anticlaim it is now likely that Arctic is a PR who reasonably thought I was lying, but to me he looked like a wolf who went "we don't have an ability named anti-claim, this is a lying VT" and figured he could get me over.

I still think given how Arctic played D1 that the latter might be the case but I'm not going to push it bc if and when my bombs go off, either Arctic dies and we'll know or he's the one Sunbae died protecting (bc my bomb would've been redirected onto Sunbae and died with him) in which case he's town.

So we can solve around Arctic for the time being.

Taffy (2)

Wdym when your bombs go off? You don't have to kill me, do you?

I.. am not sure how much I believe this. Mainly because if you believed there was anticlaim then why would you blatantly soft in your first post? And why believe there was anticlaim in the first place? Secondly because in a 15'er, unless there are 4 wolves (which just based on how the game vibes as towny, I don't think is likely) with 3 wolves there is almost no way town has KP and if they do then wolves absolutely do too so... where is it? For that reason I don't really consider your claim in itself AI and I'm instead going off of your behaviour around it, and the anticlaim stuff + voting me and dipping is just.. kinda hard for me to reconcile as genuine. But I do like how you brought light to the fact I am probably a PR today

Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML

I'm not at all convinced you're town but I feel like I've been outplayed either way, weirdly. Claiming to have ttargeted specifically me after I already claimed I wasn't a PR has put me in a pretty bad position (lmao) because.. if you are a wolf planning to use your role leashed to whoever town wants you to kill then killing me is a perfect way of killing a villager without being outted, because I was in everyone's PoE already

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 21:21
Wdym when your bombs go off? You don't have to kill me, do you?

I.. am not sure how much I believe this. Mainly because if you believed there was anticlaim then why would you blatantly soft in your first post? And why believe there was anticlaim in the first place? Secondly because in a 15'er, unless there are 4 wolves (which just based on how the game vibes as towny, I don't think is likely) with 3 wolves there is almost no way town has KP and if they do then wolves absolutely do too so... where is it? For that reason I don't really consider your claim in itself AI and I'm instead going off of your behaviour around it, and the anticlaim stuff + voting me and dipping is just.. kinda hard for me to reconcile as genuine. But I do like how you brought light to the fact I am probably a PR today

Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML

I'm not at all convinced you're town but I feel like I've been outplayed either way, weirdly. Claiming to have ttargeted specifically me after I already claimed I wasn't a PR has put me in a pretty bad position (lmao) because.. if you are a wolf planning to use your role leashed to whoever town wants you to kill then killing me is a perfect way of killing a villager without being outted, because I was in everyone's PoE already

lmao

annika
05-09-2025, 21:21
Wdym when your bombs go off? You don't have to kill me, do you?

I.. am not sure how much I believe this. Mainly because if you believed there was anticlaim then why would you blatantly soft in your first post? And why believe there was anticlaim in the first place? Secondly because in a 15'er, unless there are 4 wolves (which just based on how the game vibes as towny, I don't think is likely) with 3 wolves there is almost no way town has KP and if they do then wolves absolutely do too so... where is it? For that reason I don't really consider your claim in itself AI and I'm instead going off of your behaviour around it, and the anticlaim stuff + voting me and dipping is just.. kinda hard for me to reconcile as genuine. But I do like how you brought light to the fact I am probably a PR today

Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML

I'm not at all convinced you're town but I feel like I've been outplayed either way, weirdly. Claiming to have ttargeted specifically me after I already claimed I wasn't a PR has put me in a pretty bad position (lmao) because.. if you are a wolf planning to use your role leashed to whoever town wants you to kill then killing me is a perfect way of killing a villager without being outted, because I was in everyone's PoE already

her role has to exist for Rask's role to make sense though, right? like at least some kind of Town Bomber should exist unless that's a 3p role ??? but 3p makes no sense for a 15er lmao

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 21:23
her role has to exist for Rask's role to make sense though, right? like at least some kind of Town Bomber should exist unless that's a 3p role ??? but 3p makes no sense for a 15er lmao

3p makes plenty of sense in a 15er



i can't find it but i'm actually dead re: ladd's post to arctic "that's exactly what a pr would say" lmao

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:23
someone else prob mentioned it but i think its reasonable that the town arsonist would get some sort of message about there being a counter to their night action given rask's role


but i also think its probably worth noting that in previous gemma games on the org though (i think it was a gemma game?) there were roles in the game that alluded to the existence of others that some people found kind of game breaking because it allowed someone to claim a role that didnt exist but feasibly should have given a prior PR flip

so ya




Totally not Taffy arctic already claimed NOT a PR so I think there may be some value to just igniting even if i think arctic is town, kinda in the same way you wouldn't heal a villager's poison. imo we should talk about a bit more since you are unlikely to survive past today given you are KP (unlss wolves have an RB)

In a closed setup without a flipped protective, this isn't an unreasonable take. But in the context of this game I think that you arguing for Taffy to ignite me is pretty wolfy. We aren't getting a doc save this game, clearly, so we aren't getting any MLs back. For this reason, killing me doesn't gain a ML, it is basically no different from just voting me out today. And so you are basically advocating that we waste a ML on me, someone you think is town.

I am kinda coming around to you being a wolf if Taffy isn't. I think Visor was villagery today and your responses to him felt lawyery

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:28
Bg is dead so it's likely use it or lose it

However 1x kp puts us on Evens, effectively turning a vote into a sleep and a dead arctic

From taffy pov igniting is optimal tonight, most lokely

You recognize that a town protective is dead so we aren't getting a ML back and thus killing me is effectively the same as voting me out and yet you think I am a villager and you are still advocating for her to kill me

We can probably put this guy in the bin too

--

For the same reason, but taking the opposite stance, I think ladd is town now, regardless of what Taffy is. I'm not considering him anymore

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 21:31
In a closed setup without a flipped protective, this isn't an unreasonable take. But in the context of this game I think that you arguing for Taffy to ignite me is pretty wolfy. We aren't getting a doc save this game, clearly, so we aren't getting any MLs back. For this reason, killing me doesn't gain a ML, it is basically no different from just voting me out today. And so you are basically advocating that we waste a ML on me, someone you think is town.

I am kinda coming around to you being a wolf if Taffy isn't. I think Visor was villagery today and your responses to him felt lawyery

i don't think you understand mechanics at all, like even a little bit, so i won't engage with you on why killing you when you were claimed not-pr was potentially correct

anyway, you should explain why i'm ever playing eod the way i did while postcapped. not for me, but because I think if you reread eod with the knowledge that i didn't want you or taffy or sunbae or annika to die anymore, which is apparent in my votes IMO, i should literally be the most obvious villager in the game lol

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:40
Totally not Taffy can you claim whether you ignite when you die or if you are able to choose when to ignite

If it is the latter then do not ignite me, obviously. I can prevent you dying tonight if I don't get roleblocked, which can give you another douse

I hope you can clarify this sooner than before eod when people have used up all of their posts

And while I'm here, given my claim, I want other people to make it clear that Taffy should not ignite me if they have a choice and should be treated as outted if she does. Because wolf!Taffy using this role tailored to town and taking away 1 ML while just shrugging it off as an "oopsie well he was POE" anyway when my claim is resolving is the exact avenue she can take here as a wolf

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 21:42
if there is a misclear of the somewhat universal TRs, i think it is in the dya/pzelda realm and not the annika/stetts. i don't know how much i think that's true, but i think its more true than the wolves being in like visor? maybe lissa? idk will think

thinking about waza's own eod vis a vis what i just said @ arcy, i would probably add him into the near locks too cause of the way he was unvoting to communicate. i initially weighted his vote on taffy more than those, but i think his answer was pretty good and i believe it so i think his actions leading up to the vote outweigh the vote itself

Maple
05-09-2025, 21:44
You recognize that a town protective is dead so we aren't getting a ML back and thus killing me is effectively the same as voting me out and yet you think I am a villager and you are still advocating for her to kill me

We can probably put this guy in the bin too

--

For the same reason, but taking the opposite stance, I think ladd is town now, regardless of what Taffy is. I'm not considering him anymore

lol

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 21:45
tbc i think dya has been towny when available, but i think ladd oversells the post about sunbae they made.

dya is a killer who pockets and pushes friends like anyone else as wolf. i think ladd coming to the conclusion dya is town off that post but being sus of their initial posting is quite weird iyam. they were findable as town based off how they entered, not how they talked about sunbae after voting him

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:50
i don't think you understand mechanics at all, like even a little bit, so i won't engage with you on why killing you when you were claimed not-pr was potentially correct

anyway, you should explain why i'm ever playing eod the way i did while postcapped. not for me, but because I think if you reread eod with the knowledge that i didn't want you or taffy or sunbae or annika to die anymore, which is apparent in my votes IMO, i should literally be the most obvious villager in the game lol

I don't see how what I am saying is wrong. I am open to seeing your perspective if you can explain to me what makes it optimal to kill me there, given that it is for all intents and purposes using up one of our MLs on someone you townread. But it's difficult to engage where I am jut being told I am wrong and can't understand why.

I am not super interested in what happened at EOD anymore. With an afk wolf being wagoned and neither me nor Taffy dying (regardless of what Taffy is), it is much more plausible to me that the wolves were townsiding in the latter part of the day. Either by defending the alternatives to Rask, voting Rask, or both. You cannot make a convincing case for anyone being mafia based on EOD except for Lissa (if Taffy is a wolf, but if she isn't, then ???) so clearing you based on this doesn't seem sound to me.

And with the dead weight cut after day 1, wolves are presumably not looking to lose another. And if they did in fact actively take part in killing Rask, they are explicitly looking to use that cred up, which is why you and Maple advocating for Taffy to kill me rang alarm bells. I'm not sure it's very likely both of you are wolves, however. So I'll have to think

Maple
05-09-2025, 21:51
im highly tilted due to non-game stuff and its really affecting my wim rn

imagine i get a second wind later in the phase

looking at rask's role again, 3p arso seems entirely plausible itg, thats a lot of util to counter 1 role

Arctic
05-09-2025, 21:55
im highly tilted due to non-game stuff and its really affecting my wim rn

imagine i get a second wind later in the phase

looking at rask's role again, 3p arso seems entirely plausible itg, thats a lot of util to counter 1 role

Pat pat

Come back when you feel better. I want you to take a stance on who you think we should actually kill today, if possible

I am also off for now (probably to get high, but we shall see)

Totally not Taffy
05-09-2025, 21:55
Totally not Taffy arctic already claimed NOT a PR so I think there may be some value to just igniting even if i think arctic is town, kinda in the same way you wouldn't heal a villager's poison. imo we should talk about a bit more since you are unlikely to survive past today given you are KP (unlss wolves have an RB)

But Benneh I really want to plant more bombs :laugh4:

You are correct it might be the mechanically optimal play but several ppl have now said they think Arctic is town and well, I'd rather let him live if he is


that might actually not matter if Taffy's bombs going off is mandatory though (this kinda feels like it might be the case based on how it's a bomber rather than an arso)

in which case rip Arcy

if that's how it works Totally not Taffy I'd bomb Maple :3
if you don't wanna since you still TR her, hmm. it might be worth just killing the counterwagon?

that kinda sucks though lol because I do think all the people that will be counterwagons today like Ladd/waza are v. I mean personally I pref Maple so that's my vote, if youre taking votes (I might change my mind today in which case I'll ping you w/ it, but this is just what I'm thinking atm)

I very much enjoy the input thank you, that's what I meant with "crowdsourcing" my targets

I do think Maple is town but both you and Stett are stronger players than I am
otoh I expect that if Maple's town she's very much become part of wolves' wincon atp so I'm a bit leery of the two strong pushes and neither of you are exploring many other options I feel

Taffy (5)

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 22:02
I don't see how what I am saying is wrong. I am open to seeing your perspective if you can explain to me what makes it optimal to kill me there, given that it is for all intents and purposes using up one of our MLs on someone you townread. But it's difficult to engage where I am jut being told I am wrong and can't understand why.

i feel like you have claimed the even night protective and you think that this was some revelatory insight that this role could exist

so the idea you are proposing that me and maple are wolfy for suggesting using town killing power is correct because a town protective flipped and we won't get a mislim back is wrong for those of us that are mechanically inclined and paying attention, ducy?

i won't even go into why this is correct from the point of view that taffy is a potentially confirmed town who has killing utility and you are (were) not lock clear at the time of those posts, so even if i am townleaning you, i cannot town clear you, and yes, even IF we didn't get a mislim back, that is still often correct because town used KP going to waste is... a waste.

i think your judgement here is biased and clouded by the fact that you are the other town protective and taffy's alleged douse. you act like i have been advocating for you to still be ignited since you re-claimed and i have not. you specifically claimed VT like 2 pages ago, or did you forget?




I am not super interested in what happened at EOD anymore. With an afk wolf being wagoned and neither me nor Taffy dying (regardless of what Taffy is), it is much more plausible to me that the wolves were townsiding in the latter part of the day. Either by defending the alternatives to Rask, voting Rask, or both. You cannot make a convincing case for anyone being mafia based on EOD except for Lissa (if Taffy is a wolf, but if she isn't, then ???) so clearing you based on this doesn't seem sound to me.

And with the dead weight cut after day 1, wolves are presumably not looking to lose another. And if they did in fact actively take part in killing Rask, they are explicitly looking to use that cred up, which is why you and Maple advocating for Taffy to kill me rang alarm bells. I'm not sure it's very likely both of you are wolves, however. So I'll have to think

i think its very likely a much simpler: the wolves were afk or pushing annika/taffy/you. its literally that simple.

rask was a wolf, he was afk
ladd fits as a wolf this game, he was afk
maple fits as a wolf this game, they were pushing annika
ender fits as a wolf this game, he was pushing you

i don't understand why you think the wolves had to be in the actives or the ones actually driving wagons. it is much more likely eod just plays out the way it did because towns were active and defending other towns before settling on a literal last minute cfd on rask that only a few of us could have possibly reacted to

Totally not Taffy
05-09-2025, 22:37
When I saw Rask flipped wolf I remembered this conversation Benneh and Lissa had (I've truncated them to only the relevant parts)


by the way, i had a think in my car on the drive home and i'm going to be annoyed but more understanding of waza's play today if we find out he's like, in a neighborhood with a few people up to and including rask, and that's why he chose to play today with the vigilance of a thousand suns against a zero poster while he defends a bunch of other people without any reason while placating to several other people in the thread before he could have any real substantial read on said people at any point

if that's not the case and he's just punting around as whatever he is then ill also be annoyed but less understanding
Yeah waza's posting around rask is weird unless he's... exactly in a neighborhood with rask lol you're not wrong

And I think I misunderstood what Benneh was saying bc to me "vigilance" means "watchfulness" and therefore "being protective of someone" and Happy was not protective of Rask at all (all Happy posts about Rask up till that point in spoiler)


How many in rask ladd taffy dya?

Hopefully not more than 1 because these are some of my fav people to be town with but I’m getting an inkling it’s maybe 2 just by rng and stuff

Vote:raskilnikov

I need the towncred so I gotta bus u bronana

All wolves should be in
Ender v but my weakest v


Rask sunbae maple lissa arctic taffy dya Zelda

Damn this is a longer list than I envisioned before I typed this out lol

Oh well atleast rask is meowted so that’s one less to worry about

I think an ender vote will probs be the least info providing vote lol, especially since he’s probs v imo

I get why you might do it, and if part of it I’m guessing is the hopes it will drive him to be more productive or readable fypo. But from memory I don’t think it’s gonna work, he usually has his mind made up on whatever meme and gimmick he’s gonna do d1 and tends to stick to it but eventually later on in the game after a couple of days starts to pick up and play properly.

One might call me a hypocrite since my vote is on rask, but the difference is that rask is a wolf and meowted

That post is mostly for others not for me, I’m committed to bussing rask today lol

I do have Arctic related thoughts but I wanna sit down and properly digest his walls and then respond properly to them before I decide what I’m doing with Arctic



But now having gathered them all to make this post I assume the vigilance referred to something like being very focused on something (in this case the zero-poster)?

Anyway this is a lead-in to ask nebjiamn and Lissa why they aren't pushing Happy today for the over the top TWTBAW "I'm bussing Rask" joke three times and then voting there EoD but switching off when the wagon actually takes off.

Taffy (6)

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 22:54
i grilled him about that already and my thoughts are in my large post. i found his answer satisfactory and after pondering things some more i'm really not all that concerned about him because the rest of his actions mostly make up for that.





i know this will make people more sus of me for 3p hunting but i'm decently sure taffy is just a 3p arso here at best. i just don't think they're town with more of how the game unfolds lolspecifically, the way sunbae and arctic's roles work iss very counter-intuitive to being utilized in a game with town arson KP -- its extremely negative utilty to create a town role that can have targets soak up KP from wolf targets while ALSO giving wolves a way to detonate or disarm those bombs themselves.

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 22:57
rask's role + sunbae's role + likely arctic's role == a scenario where the town KP and protectives work together to ensure wolves can't really die but town detonations always go off

we are probably exactly in a world where town and wolves have utility and the game is augmented by a swingy but overall low-output KP in the form of a 3rd party who is truly neutral

fuckin a, cool setup gemma (unironic!!!!!!!!!!)

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 23:04
ben, I'm almost never gonna be able to make EOD because Amy refuses to go to bed reasonably.

Idk how to read taffy so if anyone has some tips there lmk

I am pretty concerned about ladd but felt better about him at EOD


i was pretty confused why earlier in the day you were able to find me so soundly but ladd was not. He seemed to get there at EOD which made me feel not as concerned. He's usually very good at reading me but it felt like he was trying to keep options open earlier

hm.

didistetter annika help me out here. remind me where you are on dya and read this from dya, does it feel genuine?

2 things that stick out to me:

-dya got defensive about not being at eod but that was a throwaway comment in my readslist. this is prob nothing but shrug
-does the ladd relief really track to you? that feels sketch to me. especially with how the hedge on ladd is prefaced in the first post?

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 23:15
Vote: dyachei

didistetter
05-09-2025, 23:34
Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML



sometimes i fear i hate mafia

Visor
05-09-2025, 23:37
vote: ladd

didistetter
05-09-2025, 23:46
"Each night, target a player (you may self-target). If they are the same alignment as you, defuse any bombs strapped to them. You are told when you successfully defuse a bomb."
nebjiamn i've been kinda rolling this over and the feedback part is interesting to me. Maf would realistically just be defusing the other wolves, but the feedback part is kinda ?

cause like you can argue that feedback is to counter the redirectors: but the redirectors function like a bodyguard: so they would normally be shielding town—which would be unlikely to interfere with maf diffusing other maf.

Ig i could see a 3p bomber buuuuut that would basically, with the rask role, make 3p a pseudo extra kp that only can target town, so their wincon seems kinda scuffed with an ungated mafia firefighter

idk villy makes more sense for me i think?

Villy arso, odd night bodyguard, even night bodyguard, maybe a tracker
+ mafia diffuser, maybe rolecop, maybe a gated kp

idk gemma setups, but 3 maf, town arso and a 3p seems a bit much lol

annika
05-09-2025, 23:47
hm.

didistetter annika help me out here. remind me where you are on dya and read this from dya, does it feel genuine?

2 things that stick out to me:

-dya got defensive about not being at eod but that was a throwaway comment in my readslist. this is prob nothing but shrug
-does the ladd relief really track to you? that feels sketch to me. especially with how the hedge on ladd is prefaced in the first post?

mostly I had them town for their catch-up but it was one of my lighter reads. Arcy and Ladd were also townreading them for the Sunbae post and I liked their reasoning for it

Dya getting defensive over not being EoD might be NAI, i think theyre usually quick to defend themselves as either alignment

hmm. I see what you mean with the relief thing, they brush off the concern on Ladd a bit quickly

didistetter
05-09-2025, 23:51
idk mybe im stupid but ladd has sounded towny to me today other than the taffy stuff lol, but even the best villies can tunnel.

Ben I am rather infamously not good at reading dya. Their tone just always sounds wolfy to me. :burnout:

i'll read back through d1 tonight probs, i need to figure out what i actually think.

annika
05-09-2025, 23:52
Arctic personally I've been really liking Ben's contributions at EoD and especially today, he has seemed hella town to me not only for the pelt on Rask but on posting as well

Maple I hope you're alright o7

I guess Taffy being a 3P might make sense? ive never seen a 3P in a 15er though so I'm still hesitant to vote her eheh

Ben's speculation around the setup makes sense, and like tbh I'd be more willing to vote her if she were wolfie, but she's still been townie to me so it's kinda like. bleh. i mean tbf a 3P might seem townie to me because they have no TMI but...,.,,,, still,..

nebjiamn
05-09-2025, 23:57
"Each night, target a player (you may self-target). If they are the same alignment as you, defuse any bombs strapped to them. You are told when you successfully defuse a bomb."
@nebjiamn (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=102428) i've been kinda rolling this over and the feedback part is interesting to me. Maf would realistically just be defusing the other wolves, but the feedback part is kinda ?

cause like you can argue that feedback is to counter the redirectors: but the redirectors function like a bodyguard: so they would normally be shielding town—which would be unlikely to interfere with maf diffusing other maf.

Ig i could see a 3p bomber buuuuut that would basically, with the rask role, make 3p a pseudo extra kp that only can target town, so their wincon seems kinda scuffed with an ungated mafia firefighter

idk villy makes more sense for me i think?

Villy arso, odd night bodyguard, even night bodyguard, maybe a tracker
+ mafia diffuser, maybe rolecop, maybe a gated kp

idk gemma setups, but 3 maf, town arso and a 3p seems a bit much lol

im running it around in my head. tbc, i would not expect there to be a town arso AND a 3p, its either or.

i'm not sure i track why you say it's limiting for them -- there isn't apparent feedback that they ARE bombed, just if the disarming was successful.

that is literally mafia's gated KP? if they target town with it, town blows up. this is where i'm getting hung up on taffy's role being 3p--does it make sense to give mafia a way to defuse themselves AND punish a town arsonist who lets out their claims before they die?

e.g. if taffy dies tonight and rask's role was alive (i.e. we didn't know about it),

-----actually hold on, i just raelized why taffy was thinking of the counterclaim

its very likelly she was told mafia could use her claim against her (via rasks role killing her targets) and this would also make sense why the other prs didnt get such feedback?

hmm

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:01
Eh Im just gonna send it

I'm an inventor and I gave nl a track last night. The whole *bombs* thing is a pretty funny coincidence.

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 00:05
wolf inventor amirite

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:06
You know it bud ~:cheers:

didistetter
05-10-2025, 00:06
Visor confirm ?

Vote: Unvote

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:08
Admittedly giving the item to visor IS wolfing because I knew he'd defend me without outing the info and I figured I needed someone to mason with me to live deeper into the game.

Just don't have the juice to go the hard way here, and since we're basically massclaiming already i figure this info is pretty important.

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:09
Gemma crafting this cool ass setup only for the players to massclaim d2

didistetter
05-10-2025, 00:13
i wonder how much gemma enjoyed visor's disloyal wolf inventor in atla...

maple def wouldn't be a bury the invention in the NK coward like twice.

oddnight redirector, even night redirector, town arso, town inventor feels like a weird mix.

:speechless:

i wanna ignore all y'alls claims and solve off socials but that would make me still wanna kill maple.......

ben i dont really think rask role makes a ton of sense with wolf arso. i think i'd rather leave taffy for now.

Vote: Lissa wanna hear a bit more here i think :3

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:15
If I cross with the kill I die lol

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 00:15
if i entertain the idea of all PRs being town (which is not at all a given imo lol) things shake up something like this aorn for me, tiers unordered within:

nebjiamn
Arctic
Maple
Taffy

didistetter
annika

pzelda
waza

ladd
Visor
Lissa
Ender
dyachei




im gonna fuck off and conserve my last 11 posts or whatever. i think rn i'm leaning toward an elim in ladd/dya/ender/maple but i don't really know how i want to prioritize all these claims yet so mmmv

gth if all claims are true (unlikely) pzelda really needs to be given a true look-see

Gemma
05-10-2025, 00:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_osBc6S9YE

:bow: Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0 :bow:
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 883


VotesTargetVoters (Posts in Phase)
1Visorwaza (22 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864214&viewfull=1#post2053864214))
1dyacheinebjiamn (39 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864260&viewfull=1#post2053864260))
1laddVisor (13 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864262&viewfull=1#post2053864262))
9Not VotingArctic (22), EnderWiggin (13), Lissa (5), Maple (20), Totally not Taffy (6), annika (13), dyachei (2), ladd (16), pzelda (10), didistetter (26)

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:23
I guess that means I die if I cross with am ignite, I hadn't thought about that

didistetter
05-10-2025, 00:25
If I cross with the kill I die lol

sounds like a disloyal wolf conditional..........

Maple
05-10-2025, 00:29
Indeed

annika
05-10-2025, 00:38
4 PRs in a 15er is weird but I guess it's possible?


Look, kill me or annika idc. She's clearly acting in bad faith towards me. If I somehow get voted out here, presumably due to tiny wagons in a 15p game, then fuck it, give me my one.

49

Saving my last post to selfprez. I'm not a nerd who needs extra posts at EoD.

hmmm..... bolded doesnt feel PR-y though.....

waza
05-10-2025, 00:56
Wdym when your bombs go off? You don't have to kill me, do you?

I.. am not sure how much I believe this. Mainly because if you believed there was anticlaim then why would you blatantly soft in your first post? And why believe there was anticlaim in the first place? Secondly because in a 15'er, unless there are 4 wolves (which just based on how the game vibes as towny, I don't think is likely) with 3 wolves there is almost no way town has KP and if they do then wolves absolutely do too so... where is it? For that reason I don't really consider your claim in itself AI and I'm instead going off of your behaviour around it, and the anticlaim stuff + voting me and dipping is just.. kinda hard for me to reconcile as genuine. But I do like how you brought light to the fact I am probably a PR today

Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML

I'm not at all convinced you're town but I feel like I've been outplayed either way, weirdly. Claiming to have ttargeted specifically me after I already claimed I wasn't a PR has put me in a pretty bad position (lmao) because.. if you are a wolf planning to use your role leashed to whoever town wants you to kill then killing me is a perfect way of killing a villager without being outted, because I was in everyone's PoE already

U didn’t need to have claimed

waza
05-10-2025, 00:58
Eh Im just gonna send it

I'm an inventor and I gave nl a track last night. The whole *bombs* thing is a pretty funny coincidence.

Why did you out what u gave? U could have just claimed inventor and left it at that

Lissa
05-10-2025, 01:01
idk lol

u/ladd were my designated tinfoils if taffy seemed town

u seemed towny enough last couple of pages and errrr im not worried about ladd cos i know people are just gonna hound his ass all game regardless of alignment

maple seems fine enough ig

ender is townreading me all game and i like it, doesnt neccessarily make him town though

so it really just boils down to if i think theres 2 wolves in that pool......and im like errrr maybe? but im not really convinced it has to be the case either, and plus i think most of those names should get got before me lmao, unless someone gets hell tunneled but thats on them not me if that happens

so yaaa this is a big lead up to a very disappointing finish where i just say im shrugging and trying to aim for the wolf i lose to now rather than later before its too late, not convinced it has to be lissa but im just testing the waters. mostly just boiled down to me looking back at eod votes, trying to think what wolves would be doing and what their wincons would be. lissas vote on rask seemed pretty random so yah i voted there and will see what happens or how i feel in the morning or after ive read the game some more

Why do you see it as random? It was pretty obviously me thinking it was incorrect to kill Taffy and figuring I should make sure that didn't happen.


ig one of the things with ladd is that for me to believe hes a wolf i have to accept thats hes played against his own wincon during this game lmao

hes a smart gui, probs one of the smartest i met on fm so i somewhat expect him to be aware of how certain things would play out if hes a wolf

and if hes a wolf that means hes townsided unnecessarily to his own detriment at times (im going off vague memory so ill need to fact check)

like if ben is town which i think he is, then lads shielded me ben sunbae from getting heat when we were vulnerable. ok sure i somewhat forced him into townreading me so that doesnt count as much, and if ben is town hes the type of town that i imagine anyone with tmi would have a really hard time trying to justify a sr on

but with sunbae, there was a moment where sunbae was getting alota heat, and ladd spoke out against it and has been vocal against pushing the taffy wagon. the thing is though, if ladds a wolf hes well aware that hes on a timer, and that people have vocally expressed if taffy is town they'll push him. so its in ladds benefit to delay the taffy flip as long as he can,rrather then reinforce it. so for example when haru gets pushed, ladd is much better off just doing literally anything other than what he did lmao.

tbf one of the last times i tried to apply a wolf strategy read on someone it failed (twice) but i dont remember many other times its backfired. im not outright clearing ladd and will obv keep an open eye, its just i cant really figure out what his game plan would be as wolf, i can make a similar case for maple albeit i find it less convincing so i probs wont unless i feel stronger about it

I think this is pretty misplaced? Of course a ladd wolf is going to do things like shield some villagers; also ben was absolutely not ever seriously vulnerable, and frankly I didn't really think sunbae was ever going over D1 either, I was kinda baffled when he claimed ngl. makes more sense w/ what the role was but at the time I was sort of confused

idk I don't think sunbae was ever going over lol just on VIBES maybe I'm wrong

I don't think delaying the taffy flip is unambiguously beneficial for ladd; it's a tradeoff of ensuring you GET that flip versus delaying looking bad for it but it potentially not happening?


wrt to Maple: I've read over both your and Lissa's reasons for doubting she's a wolf here, and I get it, but it's not quite convincing to me. possibly because it's a meta thing and I'm not too familiar with Maple

from my PoV she did kinda push wolf agenda though, because I was a viable wagon that Lissa was voting on (at least) and Ben projected a strong-ish wolfread on me for a while before postcapping; she could reasonably think that push could go through at EoD

the main thing in her favour is that she didn't vote Arctic, but... FMPOV it's like townreading her for townsiding *at all*. she didn't do anything to defend his wagon at the very least. she also didn't do much to defend Taffy besides say "how are we going Taf here" after she claimed PR lol

I think giving her cred for not voting Taffy is like insane imo she was LITERALLY a PR claim asdgfkldashgkj and Maple PoE'd her before the claim

there's not much else you can do to wolfside at EoD besides push on Taffy (a claimed PR), so it's really just that she didn't vote Arctic. and that would've been at odds with her read list in 476 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863855&viewfull=1#post2053863855) anyway ^^;

imo she just exhausted her options when both of the people at the bottom of her list claimed PR, she was stuck voting the third. maybe you can argue "why didn't she bus?" but meh that's WIFOM

(ftr this is just me explaining why the reasons to TR her aren't convincing to me, not that anything I'm mentioning here is explicitly wolfie—it goes either way, I just have other reasons to SR her)


in terms of my other reads... I still think Ben's v, and I've kinda been feeling better about Ender recently based on his wolfread of Arctic. Stett's/Waza's/Taffy's posting has kinda just reaffirmed my previous reads on them, so not much has rly changed for me besides Ender xD

To be clear my stuff re: maple is a her whole play this game thing not at all just eod; it's her entire approach to d1 as a whole. Like it's not really about the eod though that's a part of it; I just think she'd have played the whole day in a way that would have ended up positioning her more usefully at eod + in general as a wolf.

I just spent the better part of four days wolfing with her in like a SUPER intense wolfgame and obviously this game wouldn't look like that it's not exactly comparable in that sense, but I just. really don't think this is what it would look like, I feel like I have a pretty good insight into how she thinks when wolfing now, and this just doesn't fit.

--

I think Taffy being a neutral is extremely possible. Just kinda instinctively it feels like a thing that makes sense? Both in terms of what the role is and how it fits into what we know of the setup I feel like it's probably the world we are in, town arso doesn't really quite feel right?


When I saw Rask flipped wolf I remembered this conversation Benneh and Lissa had (I've truncated them to only the relevant parts)



And I think I misunderstood what Benneh was saying bc to me "vigilance" means "watchfulness" and therefore "being protective of someone" and Happy was not protective of Rask at all (all Happy posts about Rask up till that point in spoiler)









But now having gathered them all to make this post I assume the vigilance referred to something like being very focused on something (in this case the zero-poster)?

Anyway this is a lead-in to ask nebjiamn and Lissa why they aren't pushing Happy today for the over the top TWTBAW "I'm bussing Rask" joke three times and then voting there EoD but switching off when the wagon actually takes off.

Taffy (6)

waza's handling of rask doesn't... really make sense if he is a wolf. I mean there's worlds where it was some weird levelly thing, but like. waza was probably part of the reason killing rask ever got seriously considered? I'd guess he put the thought in at least some heads with what he was doing earlier in the day? then he chooses to not vote there eod? I don't reaaallly think that's the choice he makes there as a wolf? like it's not strictly impossible but it's kinda jank.


Eh Im just gonna send it

I'm an inventor and I gave nl a track last night. The whole *bombs* thing is a pretty funny coincidence.

oh that's what that was

cute soft lol

Lissa
05-10-2025, 01:07
I think I'm probably village reading dya more strongly than I should be, gonna give them a reread

Still pretty strongly think visor is a villager, I think his focus/choices of direction here would be different/are pretty odd if he's a wolf and not how he'd be inclined to approach things

Visor
05-10-2025, 01:21
Visor confirm ?

Vote: Unvote

Go look at his first post this day phase where he mentions nl and track

Seems likely

Now I'm dead tho f

Maple
05-10-2025, 01:30
Why did you out what u gave? U could have just claimed inventor and left it at that

No reason not to, it's easily derivable from my post at start of day.

dyachei
05-10-2025, 01:40
why couldn't he just be a wolf who was getting progressively boxed in by other reads on you?

when you said you cleared him at eod i thought you meant like, actually eod

what's your read on him if you ignore how he's reading you entirely?

trying to get caught up, but this stuck out to me

If I ignore how he's reading me entirely he's kind of null to me. he's done things I think are towny and things I think are wolfy.

That's why I'm leaning on that, and yes, he could have felt boxed out, but a lot of people werent reading me all that strongly at the time so...idk

dyachei
05-10-2025, 01:40
yeah I've kind of come around to that; want to see what she has to say today/see her claim fully, but



Wait what

I didn't catch that at all, I mean multiple other people also still tried to kill taffy after the claim? I also really wish you didn't say that because I really do not think it was that obvious, so I hope you're wrong.

mostly I think maple is playing super weird if she is a wolf, I really don't think this is how she would be playing this game at all if she had randed wolf. a wolf maple looks at the game and has a 0 posting partner d1 in a REALLY villagery thread full of really strong players, she can surely tell she's gonna have to go deep this game. and just going rask if it turned out there wasn't really a better option at eod was clearly on several people's minds some way or another, I think, at least as some kind of faint consideration. I'm pretty confident she'd have picked up on that, and she both doesn't bus or try to at all look good and ALSO doesn't try to come up with any kind of real, meaningful alternative and just keeps tunneling annika?? idk it's really hard for me to see her choosing not to either try to capitalize on or avoid what happened and also for her to on top of that continue a tunnel that like everyone hates for no productive purpose

like if manti was a wolf she could've focused on pushing taffy or arctic (if they are villagers. if either is a wolf it's even weirder that she didn't try to get any kind of credit out of any of it, like ?????) or ladd (again if he is a villa but like... I mean these options aren't ALL gonna be wolves lol) or if there was another wolf also in danger it's MORE weird that she didn't actually either try to find a real alternative or take a side.

I just don't really see a wolf agenda in her posting at all. if she was a wolf she would be playing wildly different imo. there's a few different ways that could go depending on both her team and the choices she decides to make but none of them look anything like this.

also she would like, reaaallly want to win as a wolf in this playerlist lol

and her posting just isn't really advancing that, she's kinda off on her own adventure tryharding but in a way it's hard to imagine she thinks meaningfully advances her wincon as a wolf

I've actually talked myself into this read being stronger than it was before I typed this out. Her whole play this game is just completely at odds with how I imagine her approaching this game as a wolf.


ladd just kinda feels a bit idk, off. his posts just feel like they are missing something? he doesn't pop out as having done anything strongly villagery. not a read I feel super great about. shouldn't be a wolf with taffy though.

ender is a bit complicated. part of me just thinks they don't seem like they're on a team/in a wolfchat at all? certain kind of almost diconnected/off on their own. I don't see an agenda, they're just kind of meandering around thinking about things. but it's in such a way I kinda feel like I might be misreading a style thing? idk, I almost wrote them with a question mark in that second town tier.
Lissa's part on Ladd is like...spot on

dyachei
05-10-2025, 01:55
feels shitty for ben to call me villagery when I've been around then voting me anyway but I kind of get it. I'm just disappointed because my time has been severely limited this game so far and I'm likely to miss eod tomorrow, too

dyachei
05-10-2025, 01:57
im kind of getting arctic v vibes from his posts. there's something...nonchalant about them? and that fits with the pr claim

dyachei
05-10-2025, 02:03
I still think ben is a villager

I think waza is a villager and reading him is always like vibes for me. He feels good in thread rn and he's not backing down on his convictions

Lissa probably v, the relief feels palpable after last game

I want visor to be a villager, and I think he is, but I'm clearly not unbiased here. I think his posts are visor-y though and they can go either way sometimes. I just think he tips the scale to villager

I'm backing off my v read of ladd because I agree with lissa that he feels off even if he is trying to hit the right notes and I'm concerned he had a hard time finding me

idk what to do with taffy's claim

Idk how to read ender well

Maple isn't striking me as overly villagery but I do think the item thing might be v

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 02:15
vote: ladd

didistetter
05-10-2025, 02:23
if all the claims are legit:

we just have taffy not light up or like.. douse tbd , have arctic redirect visitors to visor onto himself, and visor cant die or be RBd and guaranteed gets a track off.

Gemma
05-10-2025, 02:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajGKWk0auOc

:bow: Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0 :bow:
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 901


VotesTargetVoters (Posts in Phase)
2laddVisor (14 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864262&viewfull=1#post2053864262)), nebjiamn (40 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864295&viewfull=1#post2053864295))
1Visorwaza (24 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864214&viewfull=1#post2053864214))
9Not VotingArctic (22), EnderWiggin (13), Lissa (7), Maple (23), Totally not Taffy (6), annika (14), dyachei (7), ladd (16), pzelda (10), didistetter (28)

waza
05-10-2025, 02:53
if all the claims are legit:

we just have taffy not light up or like.. douse tbd , have arctic redirect visitors to visor onto himself, and visor cant die or be RBd and guaranteed gets a track off.

Meh

Seems like a whole lot of setup and aversion of solving today (ie giving free passes to a cluster of pr claims I’m hesitant on)

And the payoff is close to nothing lol

I’d feel better about it if it didn’t increase the already high odds of Arctic dieing in the night

Meh, probs just gonna vanity today since I been busier than anticipated or just be arctics double voter

didistetter
05-10-2025, 02:54
How many in rask ladd taffy dya?

Hopefully not more than 1 because these are some of my fav people to be town with but I’m getting an inkling it’s maybe 2 just by rng and stuff


Interesting

vote: waza

nebjiamn can u walk me what was going through your brain when you made that vote?

Vote: Unvote

didistetter
05-10-2025, 02:55
How many in rask ladd taffy dya?

Hopefully not more than 1 because these are some of my fav people to be town with but I’m getting an inkling it’s maybe 2 just by rng and stuff


Interesting

vote: waza


Meh

Seems like a whole lot of setup and aversion of solving today (ie giving free passes to a cluster of pr claims I’m hesitant on)

And the payoff is close to nothing lol

I’d feel better about it if it didn’t increase the already high odds of Arctic dieing in the night

Meh, probs just gonna vanity today since I been busier than anticipated or just be arctics double voter

i mean it confirms arctic as his role, visor gets a crack at a track, and taffy is mildly forced to townside as any alignment

Lissa
05-10-2025, 03:02
im kind of getting arctic v vibes from his posts. there's something...nonchalant about them? and that fits with the pr claim

Why does nonchalance fit with pr claim for you

I believe the arctic claim, just more trying to like understand this particular line of thought because I kinda tilted my head at it when I read it

Lissa
05-10-2025, 03:03
if all the claims are legit:

we just have taffy not light up or like.. douse tbd , have arctic redirect visitors to visor onto himself, and visor cant die or be RBd and guaranteed gets a track off.

Seems correct

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 03:06
@nebjiamn (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=102428) can u walk me what was going through your brain when you made that vote?

Vote: Unvote
i sort of remember thinking the way waza was picking and choosing who his "how many wolves in:" post was odd because he qualified it with how they were some of his fav people to town with and they were 0 posters at the time, i think? but that list of 0 posters also included sunbae, arctic, and maybe a few others, and I know he loves playing with sunbae (and i contemplated making a joke about how he hates arcy)

it was also partially a rejection of your townread to announce my concerns therestemming from what i just talkedabout. i didn't really see how you were towning him and NOT towning me when a lot of his posting felt off.

there was probably more to it than that but I can't remember entirely

dyachei
05-10-2025, 03:12
Why does nonchalance fit with pr claim for you

I believe the arctic claim, just more trying to like understand this particular line of thought because I kinda tilted my head at it when I read it

it just felt like he wasnt really all that worried about being elimmed

waza
05-10-2025, 03:16
Fwiw those names weren’t completely arbitrary or based on who I liked

It was based on people who I thought/expected to have posted by now + taffy

@stett

So we get Arctic to confirm his role.. at the cost of dieing? Lol I already believe him so I don’t need confirmation there

Taffy is forced to townside regardless, if they douse Arctic I’m just parking on them every day

Track even if I trd whoever they have it is very unlikely to find anything when wolves know it exists, which is one of my primary issues with mantis claim and soft. They really didn’t need to crumb and soft they gave a track, a simple soft at being inventor woulda been enough

And in the world I’m entertaining where visor could be a wolf then that track is never gonna give us anything lol

Lissa
05-10-2025, 03:23
it just felt like he wasnt really all that worried about being elimmed

I guess there's like two angles of mindset being a pr in ~danger at eod, that of not being in danger because you know you have the claim and that of not wanting to make the claim

Really mostly you get a mix depending on situation, personality, strength of pr etc, I'm waxing a bit theoretical, not really sure what I thought I was gonna get out of that question tbh

But anyway, fair enough

waza
05-10-2025, 03:37
I don't like maple's eod here at all ftr

prob my main take away from this

Giving him an excuse to vote me here probably but it's okay lol

Hmmm

This isn’t something a pr should say

Vote:arctic

waza
05-10-2025, 03:57
Hmmm

This isn’t something a pr should say

Vote:arctic

But yeah idk In its own context I that post from Arctic to be towny because of the lack of self preservation mindset that’s expressed in the post which reads as a villa saying what they want/believe in at eod because that’s their truth

In the context of them being a pr it is harder for me to justify why he would say that

I voted a pr claim
Yesterday so I’m more than open to doing the same today

Ironically enough it’s taffy’s claims who seems the most legit to me and the most verifiable because unless maple can give out bombs then I don’t see which other possible claim that rasks role is meant to counter from the pr claims so far

Probs one in the pr mess of arctic maple visor

Don’t think Arctic and maple work together because both wolves claiming pr like this means neither can really endgame and I’m assuming it’s 3 wolves and not 4 here

Maple and visor could in theory work, but Arctic and visor probs doesn’t work. So if maple and visor has a villa in them the last is probs somewhere in ender or ladd

ladd
05-10-2025, 04:33
Ill be around and do a re read of at least eod later today (in like 12 hours)

Ngl artic claim seems the weirdest to me cause wasting 2 pr slots on an odd/even redirector seems silly setup wise. Like redirector dying doesnt cause enough variance to split it in odd/even

I dunno

ladd
05-10-2025, 04:38
Also worth noting that in one of these past games hosted from gemma ender almost won as a wolf by giving visor a vest n1. Kinda funny visor got an item again lmao

Bbl

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 05:10
I LITERALLY HAD TO STOP EATING DINNER CAUSE I REMEMBERED THIS????



wdym there's a decent chance sunbae didn't die to wolves

you think town got a save on someone or the wolf kill got stopped, and on top of that town has KP which they used specifically on sunbae who claimed PR???

idk where i'm going with this but it seems silly to think wolves didn't kill him because that requires town did


read his role again


i may be stupid


IS THIS NOT OUTING? HE HAD NO IDEA OF THE IMPLCATIONS OF SUNBAE'S ROLE AND HOW IT WORKS BUT NOW HES CLAIMING THE EVEN NIGHT COUNTERPATR????????

annika
05-10-2025, 05:12
I LITERALLY HAD TO STOP EATING DINNER CAUSE I REMEMBERED THIS????









IS THIS NOT OUTING? HE HAD NO IDEA OF THE IMPLCATIONS OF SUNBAE'S ROLE AND HOW IT WORKS BUT NOW HES CLAIMING THE EVEN NIGHT COUNTERPATR????????

wait yeah

annika
05-10-2025, 05:14
that's actually such a good catch lol

Arctic how is that not outing? you didnt read your own role or what xD

didistetter
05-10-2025, 05:23
lol

ngl if i saved a maf to kill a maf that's based as f

time to bark for us arcy :3

Lissa
05-10-2025, 05:31
I LITERALLY HAD TO STOP EATING DINNER CAUSE I REMEMBERED THIS????









IS THIS NOT OUTING? HE HAD NO IDEA OF THE IMPLCATIONS OF SUNBAE'S ROLE AND HOW IT WORKS BUT NOW HES CLAIMING THE EVEN NIGHT COUNTERPATR????????

yeah wait a minute lol that makes zero sense if he's that role what

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 06:33
I thought your read was based on one thing that you just didn't want to let go? I don't really hate the things that you're actually calling out here like, on principle, but I'm more confused about why you now have this whole case on the rest of my behaviour when it was just one thing you didn't like

It's called "24 hours of night phase where my brain is still ticking over about the game to actually elaborate further on my vague feelings and reread things I care about"

Because I don't rest during night phases for dumb reasons.

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 06:36
Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML

Then why'd I have to explain what Benneh was talking about to you?

(I see Benneh has already pointed this out and I think I shall set them upon my townpile permanently now instead of double checking myself.)

Anyway

Vote: Arctic

You may now townclear me.

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 06:41
wolf inventor amirite

Unironically kinda think this.

Lissa
05-10-2025, 06:47
drinking a nice fruity drink and thumbing through arctic's posts

I think him being a wolf looks like, really really good for visor lol

his push on him was really uncharitable and flat out misinterpretive in a way I don't think w/w pushes look very often

I don't really think he's a wolf with maple but it's not AS strong

he's not a wolf with taffy but I don't really think taffy was ever a wolf anyway at this point. frankly his posting kinda gives me the sense that he had some kind of mechanical reason to think taffy was a neutral after her claim, or at least otherwise thought so for some reason

trying to claim the sunbae counterpart when he obviously had NO IDEA what the role even did is crazy, I guess he needed a reason to not have taffy ignite him, and he didn't think something else would fit in the setup? should've isoed himself first wowee

reading his most recent posts it feels obvious he felt backed into a corner and like he had no other option but to claim and was trying desperately to leverage it into living

Lissa
05-10-2025, 07:10
it just felt like he wasnt really all that worried about being elimmed

I think this specific way of talking about/focus on uhh words focus on focus on the like posting style around the claim in this specific way idk I'm failing at making this coherent

but like

847 claim from arctic

other people are talking about the mechanical elements of the claim, focused on, other people are responding to the claim

not a huge samplesize of people

but

anyway

I want to say the focus on his behavior in the way dya has done it post claim tends to be like a TMI thing, on average, for wolves towards wolf claims. there's an underlying reason to not weight the claim itself, a not knowing how hard the claim will be weighted and overcompensating, when the villager instinct with something like that is a bit more towards seeing the claim and either taking it at face value, or evaluating focused on it. on average obviously. but on some level, I kinda think that dya was trying to shore up reasons that arctic was town, because they knew the claim could have problems by virtue of not actually fitting in the setup, they knew it wasn't real so they were focused on the behavior around his claim in a different way than villagers were processing his claim.

waza
05-10-2025, 07:16
Considering Arctic is already doused I suppose we can always just ignite him and use the vote today

I get that Arctic being a wolf looks good for visor and ender and heck maybe even ladd so tbh I don’t even know where to go, it looks pretty bad for me so you should probs just resolve me today and douse Arctic at night and just reassess tmrw

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 07:23
wdym there's a decent chance sunbae didn't die to wolves

you think town got a save on someone or the wolf kill got stopped, and on top of that town has KP which they used specifically on sunbae who claimed PR???

idk where i'm going with this but it seems silly to think wolves didn't kill him because that requires town did


read his role again


i may be stupid


Considering Arctic is already doused I suppose we can always just ignite him and use the vote today

I get that Arctic being a wolf looks good for visor and ender and heck maybe even ladd so tbh I don’t even know where to go, it looks pretty bad for me so you should probs just resolve me today and douse Arctic at night and just reassess tmrw

nah

i am very very strong on we just kill arctic with the vote and not leave it up to taffy/any potential roleblocks/stops etc. and i don't think you need to die. don't be defeatist, we got a pretty sick catch
Lissa i like your posting rn a lot and agree

vote: arctic

Lissa
05-10-2025, 07:23
my instinct is that pzelda's handling of me is like. REALLY villagery

I want to say the era in which he was playing wasn't overlapped too much with the time when I was really getting ita1d2 shot more often; and was still pretty standardly high posting and hard to kill. Idk if the timeline actually fits this? ten years blur together a bit. I definitely feel like I remember him playing more like 5-6 years ago than 2-3. I guess like this is all sort of asides though for the fact that I believe his way of handling me and attempts to read my alignment. I'm a little confused I'm having a hard time finding a lot of the posts I was thinking of.

Actually I'm pretty sure I was actually thinking of ender's posts. Oooops

I mean dude's still really villagery. His and ender's posting is remniscient of ender in a lot of ways; probably should be townreading ender harder given that lol. I don't know how much of it is stylistic for either of them really. But they're very off on their own no team doing their own thing kind of feeling the type of people where in a mash I spend a couple days defending them and then doubt myself against consensus and then give up and they flip villager.

Pzelda's just, he's a little out of touch, not really out of touch exactly, he doesn't feel like he's trying to adapt how he's viewing things to the thread at all ever. This guy is just town. I guess ender also is town? Ender's handling of me is really town. I wish I knew how he looked when he wolfed that's my hangup. I don't get QUITE as strong a sense of the like more deeply layered threads of what leads him to be out on his own doing his own thing but it's pretty there still. But he feels like not just the villager I gave up defending incorrectly who got ITAed but also the occasional guy I HARD defended for exactly the same reason but whiffed because that's just how they play the game. idk this guy is also just town though yolo

Arctic ladd dya ez

Surely not that ez but it's a fun thought

Lissa
05-10-2025, 07:26
nah

i am very very strong on we just kill arctic with the vote and not leave it up to taffy/any potential roleblocks/stops etc. and i don't think you need to die. don't be defeatist, we got a pretty sick catch
Lissa i like your posting rn a lot and agree

vote: arctic

I think this is correct, yeah. I feel like 1. it seems super likely that wolves have some sort of general tampering given what we know and can estimate about the setup and mechanical situation 2. I think Taffy has a LOT of neutral equity and with a dead wolf D1, her motivation to kill another wolf is very low if so, so even if wolves don't interfere there's a lot of good reason for her to just kinda like. Fake being tampered? And then we have to deal with this tomorrow and it'll suck up discussion and suck the air out of the room and yeah we should just kill arctic today

Vote: arctic

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 07:34
my instinct is that pzelda's handling of me is like. REALLY villagery

I want to say the era in which he was playing wasn't overlapped too much with the time when I was really getting ita1d2 shot more often; and was still pretty standardly high posting and hard to kill. Idk if the timeline actually fits this? ten years blur together a bit. I definitely feel like I remember him playing more like 5-6 years ago than 2-3. I guess like this is all sort of asides though for the fact that I believe his way of handling me and attempts to read my alignment. I'm a little confused I'm having a hard time finding a lot of the posts I was thinking of.

Actually I'm pretty sure I was actually thinking of ender's posts. Oooops

I mean dude's still really villagery. His and ender's posting is remniscient of ender in a lot of ways; probably should be townreading ender harder given that lol. I don't know how much of it is stylistic for either of them really. But they're very off on their own no team doing their own thing kind of feeling the type of people where in a mash I spend a couple days defending them and then doubt myself against consensus and then give up and they flip villager.

Pzelda's just, he's a little out of touch, not really out of touch exactly, he doesn't feel like he's trying to adapt how he's viewing things to the thread at all ever. This guy is just town. I guess ender also is town? Ender's handling of me is really town. I wish I knew how he looked when he wolfed that's my hangup. I don't get QUITE as strong a sense of the like more deeply layered threads of what leads him to be out on his own doing his own thing but it's pretty there still. But he feels like not just the villager I gave up defending incorrectly who got ITAed but also the occasional guy I HARD defended for exactly the same reason but whiffed because that's just how they play the game. idk this guy is also just town though yolo

Arctic ladd dya ez

Surely not that ez but it's a fun thought

Once I was a topposter townread player like you.

Then I took a flashwagon to the knee.

pzelda
05-10-2025, 07:37
I'm still catching up. Arctic reaction to the claim is weird? It feels like overreacting, I noted it, but I don't read into it too much.
The more interesting stuff is benneh opening the game again and Visor trying to open the game and trying to steer away from Maple. There's something he dislikes. I'm not sure if it's that the focus feels too narrow or that he would prefer to open the game and avoid the yeet.

pzelda
05-10-2025, 07:37
Good morning btw! Still drinking my first coffee.

Lissa
05-10-2025, 07:38
I'm basically just drinking cherry liqueur with a little of this like. guava nectar and a bit of flavored vodka lol

I think I already drank most of the guava part so it's pretty decently strong atp

Arctic so f in thought taffy was a neut lmao

I kinda don't think waza is a wolf either. Bro staring down arctic who ends up needing to claim today and I don't think it was like exactly super unpredictable that arctic wasn't goin super deep in this game even if w/o taffy stuff he coulda gotten away a bit longer? + zero poster wolf bros and decides to, while NOT BEING ABLE TO POST TO CONVINCE ANYONE and after pushingb the 0 poster all day, just go taffy who's probably not gonna go over let's be real there's not that manyp eople willing to commit to the d1 pr claim elim on d1 right. over both wolves that's just like. idk what's his endgame? would he not do like anything literally anything else

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 07:39
i'll be busy all day tomorrow (audrey is getting her black belt! wooooo!). i'm patting myself on the back for remembering that interaction and making today easier than it was lookin.

having said that, i've compiled a bunch of arctic spew from d1 and early d2 here. i think we should start parsing through it the rest of the day. side note: we don't have to worry about maj as its not enabled in this game til lylo

anyway click thru for ez compilation of spew and lmk ur thoughts, ping me so i can catch up when I have free time. gn all

Good, you clicked through this spoiler. This isn't actually Asari high command. They're too busy tending to what's left of their planet.

Lissa
05-10-2025, 07:42
i'll be busy all day tomorrow (audrey is getting her black belt! wooooo!). i'm patting myself on the back for remembering that interaction and making today easier than it was lookin.

having said that, i've compiled a bunch of arctic spew from d1 and early d2 here. i think we should start parsing through it the rest of the day. side note: we don't have to worry about maj as its not enabled in this game til lylo

anyway click thru for ez compilation of spew and lmk ur thoughts, ping me so i can catch up when I have free time. gn all

Good, you clicked through this spoiler. This isn't actually Asari high command. They're too busy tending to what's left of their planet.

go audrey pog

sick catch for sure

glad to nkow about maj I wasn't sure I went to check how many votes and I just tossed it out cause I'd only be like three but it was on ym mind

sick spew compilation I'll ahve to read through it


I LOOKED I KNOW BUT I WONT TELL

also i already read his spew!!!

didistetter
05-10-2025, 07:46
annika prob v i think. Stett def v. idk on taffy and I suck at reading arctic so I try not to

I do think his reads list is at odds with a lot of the thread though

ok well ik im not maf

and this seems good postish from dya

ender and visor both town off arctic

so now im confused again lol

im skimming thread for mentions and pzelda also had a fair amount of shade on arccy


ender clearly unpaired

think his treatment of annika was unpaired

so what like lissa/me/ladd/maple poe tbh?

arso + redirect + inventor seems plausible with only one redirect

Vote: Arctic

(if something goes south and arccy is town pr ben might be wolf but im not worrying about that)

ladd
05-10-2025, 07:47
Everything lissa and benneh have said sounds good to me

Even if artic comes in and tries to explain, i honestly dont think having an even redirector makes sense. Why would u need to split up a redirector?

Ender/visor/benneh/lissa/annika/stett/zelda/waza all seem like villagers . Maple/taffy should be real.


So i guess that leaves dya as last wolf and sunbae is just that sick and was n1ed

There is prolly spew to be found in eod wrt artic when he got wagoned but i dunno if i care to read back today given it d probabky just clear people who are already clear

Visor should track me/dya imo.

Lissa
05-10-2025, 07:52
ok well ik im not maf

and this seems good postish from dya

ender and visor both town off arctic

so now im confused again lol

im skimming thread for mentions and pzelda also had a fair amount of shade on arccy


ender clearly unpaired

think his treatment of annika was unpaired

so what like lissa/me/ladd/maple poe tbh?

arso + redirect + inventor seems plausible with only one redirect

Vote: Arctic

(if something goes south and arccy is town pr ben might be wolf but im not worrying about that)

would be a SICK handling if so lol

talk to me more ab dya i don't really feel a lot of things or much of any from that post at all

not a super meaningful post imo and not a particularly villagery one


Everything lissa and benneh have said sounds good to me

Even if artic comes in and tries to explain, i honestly dont think having an even redirector makes sense. Why would u need to split up a redirector?

Ender/visor/benneh/lissa/annika/stett/zelda/waza all seem like villagers . Maple/taffy should be real.


So i guess that leaves dya as last wolf and sunbae is just that sick and was n1ed

There is prolly spew to be found in eod wrt artic when he got wagoned but i dunno if i care to read back today given it d probabky just clear people who are already clear

Visor should track me/dya imo.

yeah i kinda agree lol the idea of that role being split in two is SUPER jank in retrospect

I already read arctic spew visor v maple v taffy not-w-probably-neut ez

pzelda
05-10-2025, 07:58
Ok, that claim seemed to be weird tbh. Kuddos to Ladd pointing it out first.
The worst thing about splitting a redirector would be that you would have 4 claims for town to clear. I wouldn't mind discussing Maple's claim a little further.

I'm out of time now, but I'll be back for the eod and I want to discuss more than claims.

ladd
05-10-2025, 08:00
Ok, that claim seemed to be weird tbh. Kuddos to Ladd pointing it out first.
The worst thing about splitting a redirector would be that you would have 4 claims for town to clear. I wouldn't mind discussing Maple's claim a little further.

I'm out of time now, but I'll be back for the eod and I want to discuss more than claims.

I deserve no kudos this game lmao but thx


Ill pop back in from phone to check every now and then but as the day just got easier ill prolly just go enjoy my saturday

Adieu

Lissa
05-10-2025, 08:02
Ok, that claim seemed to be weird tbh. Kuddos to Ladd pointing it out first.
The worst thing about splitting a redirector would be that you would have 4 claims for town to clear. I wouldn't mind discussing Maple's claim a little further.

I'm out of time now, but I'll be back for the eod and I want to discuss more than claims.

ben pointed out the weirdness

and it kinda goes beyond weirdness, there is just no way that arctic is ever the role he has claimed lol

didistetter
05-10-2025, 08:13
would be a SICK handling if so lol

talk to me more ab dya i don't really feel a lot of things or much of any from that post at all

not a super meaningful post imo and not a particularly villagery one


ngl im way too reliant on retro vcs b/c i've been trying to figure out how much sus/votes arctic had at the time.

off memory he was never like.. in real danger which is why dya kinda just ignoring it and not caring doesnt feel super partnered to me

but yah its not strong

Lissa
05-10-2025, 08:18
thumbing through annika's iso, she's so obviously town I don't know why I even bothered

wazaaaa is a poster. honestly his early d1 kind of makes my skin crawl in a wolfy-weirdness sense. not even really that it's just like a certain kind of weirdness and skin crawliness.

bro the f ing bussing rask posts freak me out LMAO

his handling of rask is so WEIRD I forgot how friggin weird it was

his read on visor is o k it feels decentish

pzelda is so towny lmao holy

wazas post about ender ~ok

bro these BUSSING RASK JOKES WHY

why hve you done this to me

i think waza'r ead on sunbae where he called sunbae one of his best guesses for a wolf for the thing about somehting sunbae did being one of those thimgs where sunbae gets cleared for something where he doesn't know what's happening

i don't like

i mean i can get thinking that POST was weird

but the read def feels like weird and maybe wrong-in-the-off-sense-not-the-literal-sense

i d k


My Eod is simple lol

I signaled twice to get on rask and people didn’t listen

Then Arctic wagon gained traction which I hated because between my last post and when I came back for eod Arctic was one of my main trs, by the time I voted it looked like it was going to be between taffy or Arctic so I pressed for Arctic. Maintained my vote there because I figured if me Arctic and ladd are all there with Annika and stett shielding Arctic he shouldn’t die

Not super convinced at the time that taffy had to be a hit, could go either way, I liked some of taffy’s responses to ladd but I also agree with Arctic that the way taffy claimed felt fake lol

50 post cap is a big nerf so yeah idk maybe I just ghost the entire day until Eod

I'm not sure if I'm too drunk to process this or if it just makes no sense. I mean it's just the pressed for arctic thing that gets me I think it's just like a typo or weird wording probably never mind? based on therest of the context

ultimately I don't really think he ever plays eod like he did as a wolf, what on earth does he think his endgame is doing that as a wolf with rask and arctic lol. like cmon. multiple wolves and he thinks it's a good idea to just uselessly be on neither when he can't do anything real to sway the thread. dude is smarter than that

Lissa
05-10-2025, 08:20
ngl im way too reliant on retro vcs b/c i've been trying to figure out how much sus/votes arctic had at the time.

off memory he was never like.. in real danger which is why dya kinda just ignoring it and not caring doesnt feel super partnered to me

but yah its not strong

i don't reaaally think arctic was ever going over, as someone who thought he was a wolf at the time but admittedly wasn't super comfortable about it i felt like there was a lot of people who were not down

it didn't feel like he quite had the traction

idt that dya post means much of anything

i don't think your conclusion about them not caring is quite the right one idk

waza
05-10-2025, 08:43
Oh just remembered if Arctic does flip red then visors track actually becomes useful lol

Assuming there’s no ninja in the setup, in which case I’d like the track to be used on me if Arctic is red, my eod d1 really is policy worthy snd even if I can manage to outlive dya or ladd who are probs the only two other people that may get voted before me I don’t really think dya is a wolf and on top of the stuff I already said about ladd I don’t think the way him and Arctic spoke to each other today felt w/w. I’m not ride or die with any of these reads because tbh it’s hard to think who else could be a wolf aside for maple but yeah I really would appreciate if the tracker was used on me tonight (as long as ur not paranoid im a ninja or something )

ladd
05-10-2025, 08:46
Yea i re read super quickly dya iso and while overall i can see, i still dont really think they make that post to sjnbae as wolf? Dunno maybe i am giving it too much weight

Lissa
05-10-2025, 08:47
Yea i re read super quickly dya iso and while overall i can see, i still dont really think they make that post to sjnbae as wolf? Dunno maybe i am giving it too much weight

I definitely think you are, they could 100% make that post to sunbae as w

Lissa
05-10-2025, 08:49
I don't think it's like, wrong to have found it villagery at all but I think it's pretty minor especially atp

waza
05-10-2025, 09:09
Both lissas and Ben’s excitement is believable/towny, Ben for finding the inconsistency and Lissas follow up. Her reaction to my claims of bussing rask seem hard to fake as wolf so I’ll take that

Btw Lissa when I say pressed for Arctic I meant self pres voted on behalf of arctic


Annika and stett are reads i don’t feel the need to revisit So yeah still town

I’m glad my initial take on ender might have been right lol

Idk if Arctic goes that much out of his way to bring visor into the poe if they’re partners d1 when visor was being trd, he made quite an effort to convince me out of townreading visor

Zelda I stopped trying to solve after their first two posts and just kinda assume if they’re a wolf they’d have been caught by now due to rust

I think I probs spoke about everyone else who is left anyways, so yeah idk lol on second thought maybe it’s better to use the tracker on ladd or dya instead since I don’t trust I’ll be a useful clear tmrw anyways but for poe reasons I’d still be happy to have it on me

Lissa
05-10-2025, 09:13
Both lissas and Ben’s excitement is believable/towny, Ben for finding the inconsistency and Lissas follow up. Her reaction to my claims of bussing rask seem hard to fake as wolf so I’ll take that

Btw Lissa when I say pressed for Arctic I meant self pres voted on behalf of arctic


Annika and stett are reads i don’t feel the need to revisit So yeah still town

I’m glad my initial take on ender might have been right lol

Idk if Arctic goes that much out of his way to bring visor into the poe if they’re partners d1 when visor was being trd, he made quite an effort to convince me out of townreading visor

Zelda I stopped trying to solve after their first two posts and just kinda assume if they’re a wolf they’d have been caught by now due to rust

I think I probs spoke about everyone else who is left anyways, so yeah idk lol on second thought maybe it’s better to use the tracker on ladd or dya instead since I don’t trust I’ll be a useful clear tmrw anyways but for poe reasons I’d still be happy to have it on me

oh that makes a lot more sense ngl i was SO CONFUSED i figured either somehting was worded really jank or i misread

that explains it much more sensically ok

visor is like SUPER spewed town by arctic imo

the specific way arctic pushed him, it's like. it's SUCH an ingenerous interpretation of visor'sposting to the point of being incorrect/extremely reductive

pzelda
05-10-2025, 09:21
Oh just remembered if Arctic does flip red then visors track actually becomes useful lol

Assuming there’s no ninja in the setup, in which case I’d like the track to be used on me if Arctic is red, my eod d1 really is policy worthy snd even if I can manage to outlive dya or ladd who are probs the only two other people that may get voted before me I don’t really think dya is a wolf and on top of the stuff I already said about ladd I don’t think the way him and Arctic spoke to each other today felt w/w. I’m not ride or die with any of these reads because tbh it’s hard to think who else could be a wolf aside for maple but yeah I really would appreciate if the tracker was used on me tonight (as long as ur not paranoid im a ninja or something )

Tbh that feels like a waste. You probably wouldn't write that if you were w/w with Arctic. So, if he's a wolf and you're one too, you're killing Visor. Or you just plan to throw. In light of this comment I find it less likely for you to be affiliated with Arctic and if wolf aware of the track being real and therefore you would have a mean to avoid being tracked (like not killing yourself or blocking Visor).

pzelda
05-10-2025, 09:34
I feel a little bit lazy, but I don't think there's a reason to revisit most of my reads.

Benneh/waza/stett/Dya/Lissa/Taffy - town

Visor - very likely town. I think he might be someone to talk about some more, but if Arctic flips red, he's basically cleared. That early push from Arctic wasn't bussing IMHO. And the track is real in that case.
Ladd - it just feels like the guy's town
Annika - multiple players have her locked town. I don't quite see the reason, but I'm comfortable rolling with the consensus.
Maple - I'm locking him villa if Arctic flips red.

Ender - Ok, I think town, but I also think I should keep an eye on him. I wouldn't clear him for pushing Arctic and I would check how Arctic pushed back.

pzelda
05-10-2025, 09:36
Vote: Arctic

waza
05-10-2025, 09:38
Tbh that feels like a waste. You probably wouldn't write that if you were w/w with Arctic. So, if he's a wolf and you're one too, you're killing Visor. Or you just plan to throw. In light of this comment I find it less likely for you to be affiliated with Arctic and if wolf aware of the track being real and therefore you would have a mean to avoid being tracked (like not killing yourself or blocking Visor).

Oh yeah lmao I forgot the wolf can simply just kill visor tonight if he’s v

Errr yeah idk then, this is why I wished the invention wasn’t outed and think it’s wolfy to out it in mantis claim but also both wolves claiming pr at the same time is kinda whack to be the case

pzelda
05-10-2025, 09:38
I buy Taffy's claim pretty well rn.

I think my POE is pretty much Maple/Lissa/Ladd/(Arctic)

I've put my Arctic stuff out there, if no one agrees with me I'll shrug and drop it for now because I don't have any way I can state it more persuasively and if everyone is saying I'm wrong then maybe I'm wrong.

Ladd gets added because I don't really feel like he's progressed in a way that makes me think town, but it's like ~not a strong read.

I still think Maple's narrow focus/small footprint EOD is very wolfy. I will happily champion this.

Lissa is just someone I think has been wolfy over-all. But probably is in the Arctic treatment in terms of at least two or three people have said what I was suspecting is just normal Lissa. That being said I don't think their EOD was great and they haven't done anything I find super towny so they can exist in a POE.

If I'm misclearing anyone atm it's probably in Dya (Because my ability to read them has always been kinda shoddy. I think I'm improving in the last 2/3 games we've played but wouldn't shock me if I've read em wrong.) or Waza (Because the snow leopard is tricksy and speaks sparkly words. I've definitely been wooed by them before so I tend to keep some tinfoil in the closet.)

The thing about not pushing his case here triggers me a little.
Btw let's just work on an assumption Arctic flips red.

pzelda
05-10-2025, 09:45
didistetter
First post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863625&viewfull=1#post2053863625) - This is the read on me that I've been harping on about. Makes a shade-centric observation. "Idk if this is uncharitable" and then basically suggests I'm posting differently "flavoured" to when he was wolf and he + DZ voted me out when I was town.

Second post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863652&viewfull=1#post2053863652) - I call him out on it and he then admits he "Knew it was uncharitable" and intentionally tries to point out how he wasn't really pushing it as if that's a defense. (Which 1. puts lie to the "Idk if it is uncharitable" line and 2. if you're shading someone usually the point is that you're trying to make OTHER PEOPLE be the direct attackers while you have just pushed it subtly in the background.)

Third post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863662&viewfull=1#post2053863662) - Shading Visor after Visor is generally townread (Visor has in recent times been potential miselim bait due to not caring about putting effort in, something I vibe with strongly.) and also backing down off me after I have shown my teeth.

Fourth post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863762&viewfull=1#post2053863762) - This one feels like trying to poke another to a conclusion that he's annoyed they haven't reached but this one is ~meh. I'm mostly including it because he makes a deal about someone's alignment with his reads. Which is relevant for the follow up:

Fifth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863782&viewfull=1#post2053863782) - Because when Dya pointed out how Arctic is sussing her despite having generally aligned reads his reaction is to:
Sixth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863783&viewfull=1#post2053863783) - ONCE AGAIN the person he has poe'd/shaded/sussed comes back at him for how odd it is or how uncharitable it is and the response is to placate. "I don't really sus you tbh" instead of the response to me, but I felt like it was an echo.

Seventh Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863871&viewfull=1#post2053863871) - Now instead of "Feeling like there's a difference between my shitposting last time" he's now backed down to "I just am saying I could see myself shrug yeeting you cause idk any way to read you." The backpeddling to seem reasonable is the real reason I sunk my teeth into this and don't want to let go.

Eighth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863888&viewfull=1#post2053863888) - "It's not just that I disagree with your reads"
Ninth Post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053863899&viewfull=1#post2053863899) - "i think other players have been townier and i disagree with his reads"
(Also I have always hated "I disagree with your reads" as a wolfread because how often do two town get different reads on things? Very often. Even amongst good players.)

This is mostly included because I feel like it fits with the placation to the person he's sussing while just straight up shading them to others with buzzword statements.

As for his EOD, It basically is mainly the following:
1. A weird request for Taffy to find wolves or die
2. A immediate bad reaction to the claim
3. "I don't believe taffy at all but 2 of my biggest suspects are voting her so idk"
4. Waffles around then puts down "I'd vote any of taffy/maple/ladd/rask" (Note: He does not vote Rask)
5. Has been waffling around on the claim but as soon as he starts getting votes instantly goes nuclear on trying to revitalise it against Taffy

I don't think that EOD is particularly wolfy tbh. It's kinda midline for me. The Rask note is like hindsight not ~great but also not that damning either.

My point is idk why that seems to be universally townread.

But again, it's very possible I'm miles deep in the tunnel and not seeing things clearly.

I definitely can get that way.

ladd what do you think about this case as possibly w/w? Also, ender basically dropping any effort to push it.

It's not a good case. Ender just went with w Arctic and built it around it. Then there's that part about the eod not being terrible. Ender admits that the case was made more because Arctic got universally townread at that point. So, it could be an instance of distancing IMHO.

Arctic/Ender feels too easy tho

pzelda
05-10-2025, 09:46
For some reason I asked Ladd instead of waza who is present. What's your opinion on Arctic/Ender pairing?

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 10:03
The thing about not pushing his case here triggers me a little.
Btw let's just work on an assumption Arctic flips red.

I tried to get him wagoned at EOD.

Lol.

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 10:06
Capage.

Reread D1.

Please.

Also I didn't drop off pushing that case. I said if everyone didn't agree then I'd shelve it because 90% of thread was saying Arctic was town for EOD (Which I vocally didn't agree with.)

Like m8.

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 10:08
Also I take personal offense at it being called "not a good case" when I literally caught a wolf everyone was going to handwave as town but that's neither here nor there.

pzelda
05-10-2025, 10:29
Also I take personal offense at it being called "not a good case" when I literally caught a wolf everyone was going to handwave as town but that's neither here nor there.

Tbh, I think it's a rather one-sided read focused on few select posts. What was your goal there? To start a discussion?

EnderWiggin
05-10-2025, 10:44
Tbh, I think it's a rather one-sided read focused on few select posts. What was your goal there? To start a discussion?

To point out how Arctic had been pushing several bad faith takes and when called out would backpedal on them?

Do explain how it was "one-sided". If you're asking why there was no "Oh but this part could mean they were town" then like idk go read any of my other cases. If I case someone as x unless I have doubt I don't usually bring that up.

Also like when you case someone it's not your job to devils advocate your own work.

waza
05-10-2025, 10:55
For some reason I asked Ladd instead of waza who is present. What's your opinion on Arctic/Ender pairing?

Hmmm I think you having the thought is towny haha but that’s probs not helpful input to anyone

I’m on phone atm and occupied so I’ll have to look at it later and let you know, ender wasn’t my first tinfoil guess if things go south but yeah I was trying to keep the tinfoils contained for now in order to not poison the well as Benny would say

didistetter
05-10-2025, 11:22
in no world is ender w/w with arctic.

0.

zilch.

Lissa
05-10-2025, 11:39
I feel a little bit lazy, but I don't think there's a reason to revisit most of my reads.

Benneh/waza/stett/Dya/Lissa/Taffy - town

Visor - very likely town. I think he might be someone to talk about some more, but if Arctic flips red, he's basically cleared. That early push from Arctic wasn't bussing IMHO. And the track is real in that case.
Ladd - it just feels like the guy's town
Annika - multiple players have her locked town. I don't quite see the reason, but I'm comfortable rolling with the consensus.
Maple - I'm locking him villa if Arctic flips red.

Ender - Ok, I think town, but I also think I should keep an eye on him. I wouldn't clear him for pushing Arctic and I would check how Arctic pushed back.

ok like

I'm not exactly calling you out for having everyone town per se but you're saying there's no reason to revisit most of your reads and you're calling everyone except the outed wolf town. That is not the thing you should be thinking when you look at this list, or you shouldn't be saying you still think Ender is town (I know you talked more about them after this but). I know you're like I should keep an eye on him but this isn't written like you actually see there as being a third wolf to find?

I have written a LOT OF LISTS sort of like that one over the years but all of them are like

they understand what they're saying in a way this doesn't yknow, the perspective going on here is jank. they acknowledge on some level or at least don't actively contradict to this level that the chance of SOMEONE on them being a wolf is (in this case 100% from a village pov)

I'm fairly sure you're just town anyway but the like mindset going on here kinda wigs me out.

Also ender's not a wolf with arctic lol. No.

Totally not Taffy
05-10-2025, 11:47
Benneh's reply yesterday made me realise that bc I jumped to my mentions yesterday I had actually missed a bunch of posts so I will need to reread the day.

I"m not sticking around right now bc I have to go shopping but I've got nothing on this afternoon.


dumb read alert but I feel like taffy saying specifically that i was annoyed at sod with how interactions were going is interesting and possibly towny language for what i was doing

i think any number of wolves would choose to use less derisive language and instead call me aggressive or agenda'd but annoyed feels like it comes from towny moundset? they felt like my prodding was from a place of annoyance at what waza was doing but if taffy were wolf and knows the alignments of me and a few others and coming up with a fake read, would they choose 'annoyed'?

like lissa just espoused, the ladd and visor reads gave me some pause because i was also concerned i was doing that dumb thing where you give someone credit for pushing you too easily and it becomes a thing but both of them kinda 'a-ha!' agreeing about the narration/narrow mindedness of it kinda rubbe dme the wrong way. and moreso visor than ladd since ladd originated it.

i still think visor is towny for reasons related to what lissa linked a bit earlier in how he shaped his reads though so idk maybe he's right

I still had this open from overnight reading and nebjiamn I would never call someone aggressive unless in the sense of "the way you phrased that is aggressive please step away from thread"

I found it quite unpleasant that you and Lissa referred to my early scumleans as "aggression" bc that's really not my intention and it is a game about pointing at each other and calling them scum for mostly reasons they're not going to agree with.

Taffy (I lost count)

Arctic
05-10-2025, 11:49
I LITERALLY HAD TO STOP EATING DINNER CAUSE I REMEMBERED THIS????









IS THIS NOT OUTING? HE HAD NO IDEA OF THE IMPLCATIONS OF SUNBAE'S ROLE AND HOW IT WORKS BUT NOW HES CLAIMING THE EVEN NIGHT COUNTERPATR????????

lol
this happened because i barely paid attention to what my own role (because it was even-night and i couldn't do anything for the first cycle) and thought it was a bus-driver, not a redirector, so when i saw sunbae's role i assumed he was the same thing which is why i was confused about how wolves could have not killed him

then i read closely and realized both of our roles were just redirectors

the phrasing makes it pretty clear, i am aware, i just glazed over the words. this is understandably hard to believe. but if you guys are going to kill me over an incorrect slip i at least don't want to be blamed and flamed for it because it was an honest mistake

Arctic
05-10-2025, 11:50
lol

ngl if i saved a maf to kill a maf that's based as f

time to bark for us arcy :3

ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF BARK BARK BARK BARK RUGF RUFF RUG HGGGGRRRRRR RRRRRR GRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRR HISS GROWL BITE BITE SNARL BORK BORK BORK BORK GRRRR ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF

Totally not Taffy
05-10-2025, 11:54
Oh just this

I individually townread all of Stett/Annika/Maple but logically there should be one wolf in those three

bc it's a lot more likely that I'm wrong on Maple than that both Stett and Annika are
and if I'm correct on Maple I still don't think both of them are wrong so one must be a wolf

I haven't found any of the arguments against Maple compelling but I might be confbiased
so I went back and reread Sunbae's reads wall and from that I'd vote Annika over Stett

Taffy (count+1)

Arctic
05-10-2025, 11:54
drinking a nice fruity drink and thumbing through arctic's posts

I think him being a wolf looks like, really really good for visor lol

his push on him was really uncharitable and flat out misinterpretive in a way I don't think w/w pushes look very often

I don't really think he's a wolf with maple but it's not AS strong

he's not a wolf with taffy but I don't really think taffy was ever a wolf anyway at this point. frankly his posting kinda gives me the sense that he had some kind of mechanical reason to think taffy was a neutral after her claim, or at least otherwise thought so for some reason

trying to claim the sunbae counterpart when he obviously had NO IDEA what the role even did is crazy, I guess he needed a reason to not have taffy ignite him, and he didn't think something else would fit in the setup? should've isoed himself first wowee

reading his most recent posts it feels obvious he felt backed into a corner and like he had no other option but to claim and was trying desperately to leverage it into living

my reason for thinking taffy was lying is because i heard nothing about anticlaim both when i got my role and afterwards

i'd appreciate if the entire lobby didn't spend the rest of the phase preflipping me as mafia even if we have unanimously decided i am going to die for this

which is.. honestly a pretty big waste. you are killing one of the few PR claims which is actually confirmable lol. i'd even accept being ignited at this point because then i can at least use my action on visor so that he can track someone without dying

i don't understand the arguments for why my role wouldn't exist either. but a lot of people are saying poison rn and it's not only wolves. so y'all are going to have to look at that for yourselves

didistetter
05-10-2025, 11:59
lol is that why everyone was hard townreading me for eod? cuz they think im a PR?

well I would have claimed if I was, I'm not that stupid

so if that's the only reason you are townreading me then we should probably calibrate for that now rather than 3 days later when I'm still alive when you guys would find out i am in fact not a PR and decide to turbo blitz me

why did u say this arccy

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:01
lol i've never actually been on the receiving end of one of those "you get mech outted despite being town" situations so i suppose this was going to happen at some point

but i saw waza arguing to kill himself and ignite me just because he thinks he looks bad if i am wolf, which is obviously not something i can agree with

if you want to ignite me then we should not be voting out someone just because they have more equity in a wolf!me world because i'm not mafia. that is just going to kill two villagers, most probably

waza in particular is almost certainly town because wolves know my claim is real here and they don't want to let me live to night to fuck up with their actions, but he suggested to kill someone else to the vote (himself) and let me live at night lol. never kill him please

Totally not Taffy
05-10-2025, 12:01
Oh, Arctic

Listen I know I've ignored your posts yesterday but I did so bc your reaction to my claim sounded so extremely wolfy and I just didn't want to be the one to go "we should solve around Arctic bc I bombed him" and "he might be PR" and then in the next breath call everything you say wolfy

But you've got to realise that asking me "if you get NKed will I die with you" is what wolves want to know, as town you shouldn't want me to make it public whether wolves can get a two-fer maybe a hattrick later on if you do protect me tonight

It's also not the best play if you are a protective to announce your target bc wolves just go elsewhere, and if your role works like Sunbae's does the a) you'd die anyway so why care if I ignite or not, and b) there is a very high chance Sunbae died protecting you so you'd not be bombed anyway which means you shouldn't be worried about dying at all

Talk to me about Maple/Annika/Stett please


Taffy (count+2)

Gemma
05-10-2025, 12:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiL9ItjmHRw

:bow: Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0 :bow:
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 975


VotesTargetVoters (Posts in Phase)
6ArcticEnderWiggin (21 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864317&viewfull=1#post2053864317)), Lissa (25 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864324&viewfull=1#post2053864324)), didistetter (35 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864332&viewfull=1#post2053864332)), nebjiamn (44 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864322&viewfull=1#post2053864322)), pzelda (20 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864349&viewfull=1#post2053864349)), waza (33 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864307&viewfull=1#post2053864307))
1laddVisor (14 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864262&viewfull=1#post2053864262))
6Not VotingArctic (27), Maple (23), Totally not Taffy (9), annika (16), dyachei (8), ladd (21)

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:03
why did u say this arccy


why did u say this arccy

i didn't want to be outted as a PR because my action gets a lot more utility if i breadcrumb a target at eod and end up saving them, which can give us a clear if people realize who i targeted, because without a PR claim i was obviously not gonna be nightkilled

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:07
Oh, Arctic

Listen I know I've ignored your posts yesterday but I did so bc your reaction to my claim sounded so extremely wolfy and I just didn't want to be the one to go "we should solve around Arctic bc I bombed him" and "he might be PR" and then in the next breath call everything you say wolfy

But you've got to realise that asking me "if you get NKed will I die with you" is what wolves want to know, as town you shouldn't want me to make it public whether wolves can get a two-fer maybe a hattrick later on if you do protect me tonight

It's also not the best play if you are a protective to announce your target bc wolves just go elsewhere, and if your role works like Sunbae's does the a) you'd die anyway so why care if I ignite or not, and b) there is a very high chance Sunbae died protecting you so you'd not be bombed anyway which means you shouldn't be worried about dying at all

Talk to me about Maple/Annika/Stett please


Taffy (count+2)

well maybe but it's also what i want to know because i don't know that you're town. you can easily get away with claiming to ignite me while wolves dodge my ability so 2 villagers end up dying. if you can only use it when you're dead then i have to worry about that less. this is more of a precautionary thing even though i understand from your point of view it's not optimal if you're town, but i still don't really trust you

annika and stett are still in my never kill tier this game not just because of the day 1 votes but for general play

i should probably have thoughts on maple's claim but i don't. knowing him it's probably fake and visor is just going along with it (regardless of either of their alignments) because i refuse to believe this guy just never rands VT ever and has an incessant need to fakeclaim every game. i'd still probably vote him out today but the game has become a lot more difficult to parse now that i am being treated as outted

didistetter
05-10-2025, 12:10
Vote: Unvote

gn.

Arctic if ur town can you look at pzelda's reactions to ender's case/your claim etc.

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:16
Everything lissa and benneh have said sounds good to me

Even if artic comes in and tries to explain, i honestly dont think having an even redirector makes sense. Why would u need to split up a redirector?

Ender/visor/benneh/lissa/annika/stett/zelda/waza all seem like villagers . Maple/taffy should be real.


So i guess that leaves dya as last wolf and sunbae is just that sick and was n1ed

There is prolly spew to be found in eod wrt artic when he got wagoned but i dunno if i care to read back today given it d probabky just clear people who are already clear

Visor should track me/dya imo.

hmm

i feel like this push on me comes across as far more pushable than benneh's once i flip, and i'm not sure a wolf knowing full well that my role does exist and is in this setup would try to use that as an argument cuz it's not gonna look good when i flip

i would guess that, as convincing as his acting is, benneh is probably a wolf for all this. i think he was prompted to look at me again because he thought i was vanilla fps'ing based on what i claimed and asked him earlier and he's converted that into a free ML now that he can't just say to ignite me since my claim made me self-resolving. and now he specifically doesn't want to let me act at night either, which is another thing i take problem with because wolves are not going to want to let me act tonight

i think lissa deciding to make 10 posts about me being outted mafia and preflipping based off that comes across as performative. i think she's intentionally trying to come across as lacking TMI on me. good wolves see situations like this and decide to preflip the villager wolf and make a bunch of nonsense solving so they can look like they didn't have TMI after the flip. but i think a villager here would still be uncertain, or at least uncertain enough to the point of not deciding to treat me as outted mafia or make their entire solve based on my posts before even getting my flip

Lissa
05-10-2025, 12:17
Benneh's reply yesterday made me realise that bc I jumped to my mentions yesterday I had actually missed a bunch of posts so I will need to reread the day.

I"m not sticking around right now bc I have to go shopping but I've got nothing on this afternoon.



I still had this open from overnight reading and nebjiamn I would never call someone aggressive unless in the sense of "the way you phrased that is aggressive please step away from thread"

I found it quite unpleasant that you and Lissa referred to my early scumleans as "aggression" bc that's really not my intention and it is a game about pointing at each other and calling them scum for mostly reasons they're not going to agree with.

Taffy (I lost count)

think you read something into that that wasn't there. wasn't intended in the way it sounds like you took it


lol
this happened because i barely paid attention to what my own role (because it was even-night and i couldn't do anything for the first cycle) and thought it was a bus-driver, not a redirector, so when i saw sunbae's role i assumed he was the same thing which is why i was confused about how wolves could have not killed him

then i read closely and realized both of our roles were just redirectors

the phrasing makes it pretty clear, i am aware, i just glazed over the words. this is understandably hard to believe. but if you guys are going to kill me over an incorrect slip i at least don't want to be blamed and flamed for it because it was an honest mistake

yeah sorry I just don't believe you lol. sure it's an unconventional type of redirector, but it being a bus driver would make even less sense and it's not like it's some behemoth of a mash role

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:23
think you read something into that that wasn't there. wasn't intended in the way it sounds like you took it



yeah sorry I just don't believe you lol. sure it's an unconventional type of redirector, but it being a bus driver would make even less sense and it's not like it's some behemoth of a mash role

then i'd humbly request you stop solving based on me being a wolf and instead solve on me being a villager or solve independently from my alignment because you are putting poison into the thread

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:28
ok like

I'm not exactly calling you out for having everyone town per se but you're saying there's no reason to revisit most of your reads and you're calling everyone except the outed wolf town. That is not the thing you should be thinking when you look at this list, or you shouldn't be saying you still think Ender is town (I know you talked more about them after this but). I know you're like I should keep an eye on him but this isn't written like you actually see there as being a third wolf to find?

I have written a LOT OF LISTS sort of like that one over the years but all of them are like

they understand what they're saying in a way this doesn't yknow, the perspective going on here is jank. they acknowledge on some level or at least don't actively contradict to this level that the chance of SOMEONE on them being a wolf is (in this case 100% from a village pov)

I'm fairly sure you're just town anyway but the like mindset going on here kinda wigs me out.

Also ender's not a wolf with arctic lol. No.

hmm on second thought maybe this person does not actually have TMI on my alignment. seems more genuine than the previous solving

since you asked didistetter i thought it was a little weird how pzelda never commented on my claim specifically and just kinda absorbed the sentiment that i was outted mafia. so i'm kinda sketched there. i'm not sure what to make of his posts preflipping me. if i was actually mafia and reading this from a third party perspective, i'd think that him preflipping ender with me is too unhinged to come from a wolf, but knowing i'm actually town i'm not sure if that makes the point moot. it's probably still villagery either way, but meh

ladd
05-10-2025, 12:33
I am gonna be real arctic i have no problems believing your stuff about buss driver, stuff like that happens

I just find it super weird for this setup to have 2 redirectors. The point of using odd/even modifiers is to somewhat limit the variance of having all the power to 1 person but like redirector (lightning rod would br more accurate) isnt a strong enough role to do this and use up 2 pr villa slot on this seems improbable to me

I guess i could be fine with lunching someoneone else, put u on visor have taffy ignite and see what happens. Even if i feel i may be at danger of being lunched in this scenario lmao

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:38
I am gonna be real arctic i have no problems believing your stuff about buss driver, stuff like that happens

I just find it super weird for this setup to have 2 redirectors. The point of using odd/even modifiers is to somewhat limit the variance of having all the power to 1 person but like redirector (lightning rod would br more accurate) isnt a strong enough role to do this and use up 2 pr villa slot on this seems improbable to me

I guess i could be fine with lunching someoneone else, put u on visor have taffy ignite and see what happens. Even if i feel i may be at danger of being lunched in this scenario lmao

I can understand this. But to compensate for having 1 role basically split into two, it would make sense if we had 4 town PRs instead of just 3 and everyone who claimed so far is real. Which would really just make me want to kill benneh. First for him arguing to ignite me before I had claimed PR (which would use up one of our MLs) and now him arguing to not let me live to the night when I can interfere with wolf actions

Why are you so sure he's town?

I am pretty sure you are town and may get mischopped right after me today which is something I want to avoid. who else would you be fine with killing today

Visor
05-10-2025, 12:46
vote: dya

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:46
Never kill:

didistetter
annika
waza
dyachei

Town:

ladd
pzelda

Everyone else:

Lissa
Visor
Ender
Taffy

Maple/Benneh is exactly 1 wolf and benneh isn't wolf with Taffy. But I'm kinda leveling myself into thinking she's just town or 3p so I'm not sure I care anyway

I recognize that if you kill me then I need to give 1 more villager here. Which I'd probably give as Lissa but I'm unsure

Arctic
05-10-2025, 12:47
I don't think the reason for clearing dya is being overstated at all. I have noticed similar posts in previous games and I was right to clear them for it so I'm not interested in going there

Arctic
05-10-2025, 13:13
Vote: nebjiamn

I change my mind, I would take Visor as the villager after you flip me and not Lissa. She would probably by my guess as the second if benneh is a wolf

People are spreading the sentiment of "well what's Manti's plan as wolf by playing eod/the rest of the phase the way he did" and to that I propose that the wolf who is playing to win is benneh. Sure he townsided at EOD. While he was already townreading me and Taffy claimed PR. Also after trying to kill annika and stett at the start of the game. If Maple is village, then you guys are giving him far too much credit this game, which is why I struggle to take Lissa's stance seriously (that benneh and maple are 2 villagers) - Visor thinking Maple is town and pushing on benneh seems like a much more realistic worldview to me than Lissa's

Visor's read on me today is townie. I don't know why he hasn't commented on any of the claim shenanigans, but I feel like a wolf would feel somewhat obliged to. And he is doubly cleared if benneh ends up being a wolf

Ladd is the person that people will want to default to after you flip me, probably. But I think he has been townie today, the tinfoil of me and taffy being w/w was townie, the intrigue on why people were townreading dya despite having them as lock town for his own reasoning seems villagery, and I think his stance that "your role wouldn't exist in this setup" is one that makes him look avoidably bad tomorrow compared to the stance that Lissa are benneh are taking because they can very easily just say that I messed up my claim + the sunbae thing and blame me for it. But ladd is giving me a much more fair shake here when it comes to how I could have made my mistake

This is a very biased solve, I am aware. I don't like to solve around my slot because my accuracy decreases heavily when I become part of the narrative. But I do believe that I have the best perspective on the game right now and you should not dismiss everything I am saying tomorrow

pzelda
05-10-2025, 14:00
ok like

I'm not exactly calling you out for having everyone town per se but you're saying there's no reason to revisit most of your reads and you're calling everyone except the outed wolf town. That is not the thing you should be thinking when you look at this list, or you shouldn't be saying you still think Ender is town (I know you talked more about them after this but). I know you're like I should keep an eye on him but this isn't written like you actually see there as being a third wolf to find?

I have written a LOT OF LISTS sort of like that one over the years but all of them are like

they understand what they're saying in a way this doesn't yknow, the perspective going on here is jank. they acknowledge on some level or at least don't actively contradict to this level that the chance of SOMEONE on them being a wolf is (in this case 100% from a village pov)

I'm fairly sure you're just town anyway but the like mindset going on here kinda wigs me out.

Also ender's not a wolf with arctic lol. No.

I need to put more work in and revisit some of my reads, but I haven't got time or energy for that this morning. I guess I might get better if I manage to concentrate on the game more this evening.

And ok, guys. I'm dropping my Ender push.

pzelda
05-10-2025, 14:11
my reason for thinking taffy was lying is because i heard nothing about anticlaim both when i got my role and afterwards

i'd appreciate if the entire lobby didn't spend the rest of the phase preflipping me as mafia even if we have unanimously decided i am going to die for this

which is.. honestly a pretty big waste. you are killing one of the few PR claims which is actually confirmable lol. i'd even accept being ignited at this point because then i can at least use my action on visor so that he can track someone without dying

i don't understand the arguments for why my role wouldn't exist either. but a lot of people are saying poison rn and it's not only wolves. so y'all are going to have to look at that for yourselves

I was thinking about this and having two half lightning rods and a bomber makes more sense than one half redirector, one bomber and an inventor with a possibility to clear more players. Or does it not?

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 14:14
sorry arctic, i can believe you could mess up the claim but the combination of you firmly playing like not-a-PR yesterday and trying to push-out-a-PR instead and also your solve just kind of sucking (fmpov) makes me want to just unabashedly kill you. i'm obviously town -- and even though i'm pushing you, i legitimately think you would be able to find me here and not just brush things off as 'acting.' its as if you have condensed all of my posting, all of which is supremely villagery (as evidenced by the abundance of players correctly townclearing me), and distilled it into the most uncharitable takes so you can justify pushing me.

i also think lissa's posting last night, while drunk, reads incredibly pure and uninformed, so beyond just having a bad read on me, i think your suggestion that lissa is the yin to my yang is also likely wrong and I just think you'd be able to find at least one of us, but you've instead sunk your teeth into ladd as your sure town from all of this. c'est la vie. imo, ladd seems like one of hte people from your position you should be most sus of tbh

your responses to my suggesting we discuss the optimality of using town-KP on a non-claimed PR in yourself, because you were sorta in my townreads at SOD, just reads like you thought you had a gotcha moment on me when the reality is i had you in the tier of townleans that i did not feel super comfortable about and this was especially true as my starting POE for the day whittled down (sunbae died, my waza epiphany, and taffy re-asserting their claim). i think it is more likely you were amazed you had been targetted with a douse and the realities of you just shrug dying when you were in a pretty monstrous spot otherwise left you spiraling and needing to come up with something you hadn't thought through.

if you're town PR, you saw me write that and got all big in your britches because you're PR who firmly asserted they were always VT and would never play eod1 the way you did as VT and then comically misunderstood your role on day 2 when the realities came crashing down. i just don't believe this is likely even if i think it is possible, especially when i pair it with how you've solved the game from your distinct point of view. i wouldn't and won't flame you if you are town but i would probably ask you in future games to not get so caught up in thinking incorrect reads against you are a bigger sin BECAUSE you're a PR. that's how you read to me right now fwiw, so I kinda just hope you're wolf who's flailing and omgussing instead.

i will give you this: in the world you are town, i think your next most likely hit from your current solve is maple, who you've placed me in a difference check with. this is where possible redemption is for you if town, but i am not killing maple here today anymore because atp we are just testing a 50/50 and we at least have decent confirmation of their role being real in comparison to yours, even if its existence doesn't necessarily confirm its alignment.

if others feel strongly about your reaction my suggestion would be to kill dya instead because I think they have the most equity as a partner for you in addition to just sort of similarly slipping into a poe in the worlds you are town along with the other PR claims are town and then do the spiel ladd is talking about re: mech

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 14:20
also sunbae wanted yall dead and then he died n1 and i think you tmi'd that he actually was the wolf kill and not a redirect/bg/whatevs

gg sunbae goat

annika
05-10-2025, 14:22
my brain is too smol for this game
Arctic I still don’t think it’s Ben because his reaction to thinking he found a slip was like ridiculously villagery excitement imo. also you really misread your own role? im gonna cry agshrhfhhf

pzelda
05-10-2025, 14:23
I can't help myself I like Arctic based on their recent posts. If they really are mafia, this is a bold offensive (tbh Arctic I used phrases such as "if they flip wolf" in my post claim comments). Before the claim my feeling was that
Also, why would Arctic claim there as a wolf? It would be risky as there could be a cc. The only option would be they were a wolf redirector and I can't see why would anyone put that role in.
Ofc that leads to me thinking about Benneh. Mostly, because I think he should be one of these players pointing out that slips don't exist. At least I believe so.
I'm not jumping to conclusions just ruminating my options for the rest of D2.

Visor
05-10-2025, 14:24
I don't care about the claim stuff

Your reason is perfectly plausible

Taffy will probably want to kill you tonight anyway to prove she is real

I just don't see a point in wasting words on it

Visor
05-10-2025, 14:24
also sunbae wanted yall dead and then he died n1 and i think you tmi'd that he actually was the wolf kill and not a redirect/bg/whatevs

gg sunbae goat

Sunbaes wanted dya dead

pzelda
05-10-2025, 14:24
my brain is too smol for this game
Arctic I still don’t think it’s Ben because his reaction to thinking he found a slip was like ridiculously villagery excitement imo. also you really misread your own role? im gonna cry agshrhfhhf

I feel the same way. Just trying on different tin foil hats rn

Gemma
05-10-2025, 14:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efqSzfXaA5k

:bow: Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0 :bow:
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 996


VotesTargetVoters (Posts in Phase)
5ArcticEnderWiggin (21 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864317&viewfull=1#post2053864317)), Lissa (26 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864324&viewfull=1#post2053864324)), nebjiamn (46 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864322&viewfull=1#post2053864322)), pzelda (24 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864349&viewfull=1#post2053864349)), waza (33 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864307&viewfull=1#post2053864307))
1dyacheiVisor (17 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864381&viewfull=1#post2053864381))
1nebjiamnArctic (35 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/155087-Gemma-s-Favorite-Music-Mafia?p=2053864384&viewfull=1#post2053864384))
6Not VotingMaple (23), Totally not Taffy (9), annika (17), didistetter (36), dyachei (8), ladd (22)

nebjiamn
05-10-2025, 14:28
Sunbaes wanted dya dead

dya was part of the 'yall' there

annika
05-10-2025, 14:32
I LITERALLY HAD TO STOP EATING DINNER CAUSE I REMEMBERED THIS????

IS THIS NOT OUTING? HE HAD NO IDEA OF THE IMPLCATIONS OF SUNBAE'S ROLE AND HOW IT WORKS BUT NOW HES CLAIMING THE EVEN NIGHT COUNTERPATR????????

if this is a wolf im snowed af

he literally stopped eating dinner bc he had an epiphany like omg it’s sooo townie

Visor
05-10-2025, 14:33
if this is a wolf im snowed af

he literally stopped eating dinner bc he had an epiphany like omg it’s sooo townie

Ew david