OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[TinCow]

I was under the impression that this avatar was reserved for flyd once it came of age.

Last I heard, flyd hadn't made up his mind:


I won't be jumping back in right away. Let's adopt a wait-'n'-see approach.


Let me know what you want to do about your reincarnation. We can pop an RBG for you by 1117 if you want. Also, Andronikos and Isaakios Komnenos will both come of age towards the end of this current term, perhaps a week or so from now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

All right then, my mistake.

[Ignoramus]

In fact, the AI is more moronic than you think. I replayed the save, as TC asked me to do, and didn't block the crossing. The Turks still turned around.

[Cecil XIX]

Okay, I'm back. I'm mostly caught up, and I'll soon start posting and replying to PMs. (including clearing my PM Box. :yes:)

Somehow, I just knew I'd come back to see another post in the Mausoleum. :sweatdrop:

[deguerra]

*cough cough*

*clearing of throat*

*taking of long, deep breath*

IGNORAMUS! CLEAR YOUR INBOX!!!!!!

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am desperately trying to revive Efstratios' storyline.

I dont have SS installed yet. Where is he anyway, how old, etc?

Is anyone still interested in him as a character or should I drop out?

[Privateerkev]

I am desperately trying to revive Efstratios' storyline.

I dont have SS installed yet. Where is he anyway, how old, etc?

Is anyone still interested in him as a character or should I drop out?

He is still sitting in Durrazzo. Michail is still standing outside Durazzo with the spearmen.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Thanks, Privateerkev.

If I can get things working, I'd like to one day... maybe... even move my character around the map for once. :laugh2:

If anyone cares, Efstratios is currently being "held as a captive prisoner" by the "Free Durazzo Movement".

[Ignoramus]

I recruited 2 units of Town Militia in Antioch, and two Peasant Archer units. The Order now has 6 infantry, 4 archers, and 2 cavalry, as required.

[Privateerkev]

NM...

[Privateerkev]

I recruited 2 units of Town Militia in Antioch, and two Peasant Archer units. The Order now has 6 infantry, 4 archers, and 2 cavalry, as required.

Sorry Ig but they aren't in the save (http://rapidshare.com/files/136512217/LOTR-1123-1.zip) that you released at the beginning of the turn. Only 1 archer was recruited in Nicosia. So that is what I am going off of IC.

Did you mix up the saves when you and TC were trying to fix the French Crusade problem?

[Ramses II CP]

FYI unless there's something wrong with my game there were not two units of town militia available to be recruited in Antioch last year. :inquisitive:

:egypt:

[Kagemusha]

Hey,can my avatar please have the title ancillary that comes from being the ruler of Armenia?:yes:

[TinCow]

I'll transfer it when I do the Library update next year, along with anything else of a similar sort. I think several titles will need to be moved around.

[Ignoramus]

Also, could you remove Ioannis' pagan magician?

[Privateerkev]

FYI unless there's something wrong with my game there were not two units of town militia available to be recruited in Antioch last year. :inquisitive:

I think he meant spear militia. At least, I hope that is what he meant... :clown:

[Ramses II CP]

Well, my point is simply that the 'rules' about private armies are more like suggestions, and I sincerely hope the next Megas is paying close attention to that fact. As long as you're willing to at least make an excuse that couldn't possibly be accurate no one will even notice whether you're upholding them or not.

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

Well, my point is simply that the 'rules' about private armies are more like suggestions, and I sincerely hope the next Megas is paying close attention to that fact. As long as you're willing to at least make an excuse that couldn't possibly be accurate no one will even notice whether you're upholding them or not.

Just my opinion but I think Ig is telling the truth about the units. I think he did recruit them but with the jumble of saves him and TC worked on, something got lost or missed.

So, OOC I'm fine with this. I want it fixed of course but I am convinced that this latest "rule breaking" was an honest mistake.

IC however I consider it fair game and will act accordingly... :evil:

[TinCow]

I am preparing a 'Guide' on how to play the Megas. As part of this, I will address the issue of breaking rules like this. The following will apply to all future Megas terms: If the Megas violates an OOC game rule and this violation is protested by a player (if no one protests, it must not be a serious violation) he will be given one turn to rectify the situation or begin rectifying the situation, if it would require multiple turns. If this is not done, or the rule is violated a second time, the Megas will be removed from office without an impeachment vote, and a new election will be held in an Emergency Session, in which the 'impeached' Megas will not be allowed to stand for re-election.

[Privateerkev]

How many "unalligned Senators" are we going to allow in this game?

I understand TF and GH were special cases. But now ATPG, who has an avatar BTW, is now also playing a "generic Elector."

The problem with "generic Electors" is that you really can't interact with them in the rules. You can yell at them in the Senate and see that their legislation dies but that is it. He has no real political or military career for us to threaten. Doesn't seem fair...

I thought the "everyone must have an avatar" rule was written specifically to prevent this.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You seem to be interacting with and threatening his career quite well! :laugh4:

In case anyone cares, I announced my intention to do exactly this, long before my computer died and it threw off my entire storyline.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1970292&postcount=503

Was quite a while ago, in fact. No one said anything about it being unfair or against the rules before.

But if it's REALLY a problem, I am certain TinCow can remove all posts related to the senator in question. If it's ruining anyones gameplay experience, I can simply kill off Monomachos and drop from the game.

[Cecil XIX]

If he has no political or military career for us to threaten, then he has no political or military power to threaten us. Seems fair to me.

[TinCow]

Unaligned doesn't mean without an avatar, it just means that they're not a part of a House/Alliance. ATPG has an avatar and you can threaten him in the same manner as you can threaten everyone else. He may refuse to RP that avatar, but that's what his influence is based on, etc. I am not goint to tell ATPG how to interact IC, but his abilities in the game are still tied exclusively to his avatar.

Unless there are extraordinarily unusual circumstances that reduce me to tears at the very thought of the unfairness of the situation to the player, no one else will ever be allowed to play without an avatar. You don't have to move the avatar or fight any battles if you don't want to, but you must at least have one in the game somewhere. GH will be allowed to play in his current role until he gets a computer capable of playing M2TW or otherwise decides to leave the game. TF will be allowed to continue playing the Princess only until she dies. At that point, he must take an in-game avatar if he wants to keep playing.

[Privateerkev]

Just my 2 cents but I prefer if people play with their actual avatars, or characters tied to their avatars as much as possible. YLC has been using Veronica in the Senate but she is tied to his avatar, Iakovos. Which allows us to hold Iakovos responsible for what she says.

As for not saying anything sooner, you didn't really speak much ATPG until now.

IC I will simply not see that Senator as "legal" and ignore him. OOC, I do wish that people with avatars play their avatars but thats up to TC to decide.

I don't want you to drop from the game ATPG but it does get frusterating having someone yell at you that you can't really do anything about. If an avatar yells at you, there are real IC consequences that can be brought to bear. But generic electors basically have a free pass to say absolutely anything they want as long as the Emperor allows it.

*edit*

Nevermind, TC made his ruling while I was writing.

[Ituralde]

I am preparing a 'Guide' on how to play the Megas. As part of this, I will address the issue of breaking rules like this. The following will apply to all future Megas terms: If the Megas violates an OOC game rule and this violation is protested by a player (if no one protests, it must not be a serious violation) he will be given one turn to rectify the situation or begin rectifying the situation, if it would require multiple turns. If this is not done, or the rule is violated a second time, the Megas will be removed from office without an impeachment vote, and a new election will be held in an Emergency Session, in which the 'impeached' Megas will not be allowed to stand for re-election.

I really like this! Clear OOC regulations will hopefully prevent OOC matters spilling into the IC part of the game. I always find it hard to roleplay in those situations. :2thumbsup:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just my 2 cents but I prefer if people play with their actual avatars, or characters tied to their avatars as much as possible. YLC has been using Veronica in the Senate but she is tied to his avatar, Iakovos. Which allows us to hold Iakovos responsible for what she says.

As for not saying anything sooner, you didn't really speak much ATPG until now.

IC I will simply not see that Senator as "legal" and ignore him. OOC, I do wish that people with avatars play their avatars but thats up to TC to decide.

I don't want you to drop from the game ATPG but it does get frusterating having someone yell at you that you can't really do anything about. If an avatar yells at you, there are real IC consequences that can be brought to bear. But generic electors basically have a free pass to say absolutely anything they want as long as the Emperor allows it.

*edit*

NM, TC posted this while I was writing.

From what you're telling me, PK, using this non-player character to speak for myself in Monomachos' absence will be frustrating and therefore make the game less fun.

That was never my intention.

I respectfully request that this NPC character be withdrawn and stricken from the record, as he has proved to be a less-than-fun distraction.

[Privateerkev]

From what you're telling me, PK, using this non-player character to speak for myself in Monomachos' absence will be frustrating and therefore make the game less fun.

That was never my intention.

I respectfully request that this NPC character be withdrawn and stricken from the record, as he has proved to be a less-than-fun distraction.

Nah, don't do that. I will just advocate IC for tying your NPC to your avatar. If you refuse, I will provide the IC consequence of "ignoring." I will also attempt to get him banned from the Magnaura.

But please keep in mind that is all IC, not OOC. OOC, TC has made it clear. You have an avatar, therefore you can RP what ever you wish. So, OOC this is settled for me. :medievalcheers:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Nah, don't do that. I will just advocate IC for tying your NPC to your avatar. If you refuse, I will provide the IC consequence of "ignoring." I will also attempt to get him banned from the Magnaura.

But please keep in mind that is all IC, not OOC. OOC, TC has made it clear. You have an avatar, therefore you can RP what ever you wish. So, OOC this is settled for me. :medievalcheers:

Not to beat this issue like a dead horse, but here's my thoughts.

IC/OOC often has a very blurred line. Your character won't interact with mine IC for reasons which are OOC. If this were "real", your character wouldn't be "aware" that this NPC is in fact an NPC, so therefore any issue your avatar has with this person is technically an OOC issue, now that the "rule" status of the character is settled.

May not seem like a big distinction, but it completely ruins the IC aspect of being in the senate for me. Which hampers my gameplay experience.

:laugh2:

The mere fact that your character knows mine is a NPC which is different from the others destroys the illusion of reality. I'd never be able to use that character with that mess hanging over things, or create a story, or even confidently debate in the senate without voting.

It is as though we are all collectively writing a novel, but one of the characters refuses to interact with another character when the story calls for it, breaking the suspension of disbelief, and possibly the fourth wall. If on an episode of "I Love Lucy", Fred and Ethel show up with some nephew that wasn't in the script, Lucy would attempt to interact with Fred and Ethel but the nephew would speak and just be ignored. It would completely ruin the audience's ability to enjoy the story.

I understand your reasons for not wanting an IC interaction with this NPC, and those reasons make it impossible for me to effectively use the character. For me to proceed from this point on would make the senate a farce. And after all that, what would I have done? Basically ruined several people's enjoyment of the game, all for the sake of introducing a completely unimportant character which everyone will attempt to forget ever exists.

I'm afraid although TC has ruled this character is legal, he unfortunately suffers from Chuck Cunningham Syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Days#.22Chuck_Cunningham_Syndrome.22

A superfluous, out-of-place character whose minor interactions with others are best buried and forgotten. Or at the very least, written out of the story.

So, the "senator" in question can be quietly forgotten, dragged out of the senate in chains, or suddenly die of a heart attack. Whatever would best get the story moving again. I've determined that, under the circumstances, I can't really use such a character, and would not want to. It's already been too much of a distraction and I regret writing it.

[Cecil XIX]

You are correct, except for one thing: Your senator is not recognized as such in any official records, but he is speaking like he is. Makedonios does indeed have a justification for ignoring him that is entirely IC.

[Privateerkev]

IC/OOC often has a very blurred line. Your character won't interact with mine IC for reasons which are OOC. If this were "real", your character wouldn't be "aware" that this NPC is in fact an NPC, so therefore any issue your avatar has with this person is technically an OOC issue, now that the "rule" status of the character is settled.

May not seem like a big distinction, but it completely ruins the IC aspect of being in the senate for me. Which hampers my gameplay experience.

I guess the way I saw it, this Senator didn't have Efstratios's "seal" so Mak didn't see him as legitimate. From my way of thinking, this was a totally valid IC issue for me to pursue just like it was totally valid IC for you to put him in there.

I saw us both as pursuing things IC for IC reasons. If you think I picked on you IC with my OOC knowledge, then I truly apologize. I never try to do that. :bow:

Your right, IC/OOC is a blurry thing. I do the best I can with it. :yes:

[TinCow]

While RPGs by definition involve role-playing and story-telling, they are still above all else, games. The structure of this game requires that players' abilities and tangible interactions with the world and other players be done through their avatar. This is no different from Dungeons & Dragons or any other RPG system. We love to encourage creative story-telling and thinking in these games, so we also allow people to go beyond what a D&D type game would allow you to do in this context and players are free to create 'NPCs' and tangential storylines if they so desire. However, the game aspect of LotR will always take precedence. If you get banned from the Senate, all of your NPCs will also be banned, even if it doesn't make sense IC. This is because your avatar is your only true method of tangible interaction with the world and thus your avatar is also the way the rest of the world can have a tangible interaction with you. If you want to do role-playing and storytelling without any limits or consequences, I suggest you take a look in the Mead Hall (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=37).

[Ibn-Khaldun]

OOC and IC .. lines between them .. rules ..

This is giving me a headache .. please stop!:dizzy2:

Another thing..

I hope TC finishes 'The Guide how to be the Megas' very soon..
So far it's been confusing.. the Megas can do what ever he wants but then again he can do nothing..:inquisitive:
This have also been the reason I haven't proposed my candidacy to be the next Megas...

[TinCow]

The first draft of the Guide will be posted later today. I'm writing it under the assumption that my (as of yet unwritten) CA clarifying the Rules about RAs, PAs, and PBs will be passed.

[Rowan]

Well, since it took you almost one full term to get to Egypt your term would be almost over before you were back in civilization ;)

And, since TC managed to post about the issue at the same time, does the test game have any "constitutional" value? I mean if there are issues that were encountered during the test game and a solution was formed do we have to run into all the same issues again in LotR and codify them in CAs? Or can we just treat the test game as precedent?

[Privateerkev]

This have also been the reason I haven't proposed my candidacy to be the next Megas...

You need land as well. :book:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

TC .. we will make sure they are passed :yes:

(now I have to think who these 'we' are :embarassed:)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You need land as well. :book:

And wat you think Efstathios is doing in Egypt then not getting one?:clown:

I'm sure he is not there because of the weather :laugh4:

[TinCow]

And, since TC managed to post about the issue at the same time, does the test game have any "constitutional" value? I mean if there are issues that were encountered during the test game and a solution was formed do we have to run into all the same issues again in LotR and codify them in CAs? Or can we just treat the test game as precedent?

Anything that was deemed sufficiently important from the Test Game has already been made part of the current rules. The Test Game no longer has any 'official' impact on LotR in any way, even if we encounter similar issues which did not end up being codified.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You are correct, except for one thing: Your senator is not recognized as such in any official records, but he is speaking like he is. Makedonios does indeed have a justification for ignoring him that is entirely IC.


True, but he is "an official delegate from the Durazzo province" who is the "replacement" for Senator Monomachos, filling out the "end of his term", rendering that point fairly moot.

It's just a big distraction, so I've decided to end his life in a most spectacular manner. So as not to distract from the actual Senate, here it is:

Taranto Giovinazzo, the impostor Senator, spy of the Kingdom of Sicily, is exposed by Makedonios for the fraud that he is, and the guards close in on him.

Just as they are about to capture him, Taranto Giovinazzo reaches inside his cloak and produces a grappling hook attached to a very long and sturdy rope. He whips the hook as hard as he can and it catches on one of the beams that run across the grand structure. With a jolly "ho ho!" the Sicilian spy swings over the palace guards and flips a full seventeen times in the air before landing on his feet.

The incredibly over-the-top and entirely unrealistic manner of his heroic escape has left him horribly, horribly dizzy and nauseated. Instead of rushing out of the senate to his inevitable freedom, he trips over his suspiciously large shoes and smacks his head against the stone floor. As blood pours from his forehead, Taranto attempts to regain his footing, but he is seeing stars, and lurches forward to vomit profusely.

Slipping in a puddle of his own abdominal spillage, he once again slips, this time landing on the back of his head. Blood pouring over his eyes, he struggles to turn over onto his stomach, but the slick stone floor prevents him from making any progress. He winces and cries out from the pain, and once again tries to get up. After several concussions and much blood loss, and twelve attempts to stand, Taranto finally rises to his feet and staggers towards an open window to escape.

Along the way, Taranto's mind begins to clear, and all the secrets of existence seem to be revealed to him. The severe brain damage he sustained against the floor somehow made the world seem simple and easy to understand. The meaning of existence, after centuries of discussion, is revealed simply to be the the logical, mathematically defined exception to all of the long odds against it's own being. For however unlikely is the birth of time and space and matter into existence, from nothingness, the mere fact that it is possible means that it is a mathematical certainty, given the infinite nature of nonexistence, that existence is possible. As for the meaning of life, it seems clear now that the purpose of human existence is to examine and document, as well as experience, the incredible and entirely unlikely possibility of the universe itself; to gain understanding over the nature of reality, metaphysics, mathematics, and harmony, and to take the lessons learned from that and apply it to one's personal code of ethics and philosophy, that one might bring reason, understanding, peace, harmony, and even life itself to other sentient beings, to help civilization discover more about this fantastic exception to the rule which is our very existence. The miracle of truth allowing the distinction between real and imaginary to generate the very fabric of our being, to allow for the concept of the laws of physics, of logic, of universal constants and the motion of time and space and energy, all while providing this existence with a form of justice.

As Taranto pondered whether or not a divine entity caused this great exception to nonbeing, and all the other metaphysical questions that have caused mankind to theorize and debate, and just as he was about to reveal to everyone in the Roman Imperial Senate the very truth of their existence, Taranto suffered a fatal burst of flatulence which caused him to explode, and the oil-fuelled lighting fixtures which provided light for the Senate chambers caused that gas to ignite into a massive fireball.

And so all that remained of Taranto Giovinazzo was a large spill of blood and vomit on the senate floor, and a large floppy clown shoe.

And a decidedly unpleasant odor.

[Privateerkev]

:laugh4:

[Askthepizzaguy]

will do. Everyone should get a chance to enjoy the demise of a character, when he is gracious enough to expire in a humorous manner!

:clown:

[Privateerkev]

will do. Everyone should get a chance to enjoy the demise of a character, when he is gracious enough to expire in a humorous manner!

:clown:


Sorry, ATPG, when I realized my post could be seen as taking your joke too seriously, I edited it. I didn't know you saw it and was working off of it. :laugh4:

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, seriously, I thought it was a good idea. So, for the record, the Stories Thread will now contain a written record of these events, just in case anyone wants to easily find them.

I know this much; If I write something in the Magnaura, I cannot ever find it again.

[TinCow]

The first draft of the Megas Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1988289&postcount=3) is now complete. All comments and criticisms are welcome. Please point out anything I missed or anything that should be improved/added.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Thank You TinCow! :bow:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I think there are two people waiting for PMs from me - apologies, guys. This is a busy week for me.

[Ferret]

I know this much; If I write something in the Magnaura, I cannot ever find it again.

If it's important enough OK will link to it in the history, which I appreciate greatly :2thumbsup:

[Ramses II CP]

Ye gods, Vissa is very glad he wasn't within a hundred miles of the senate to witness the exit of the 'Sicilian spy.' I wonder if they felt the concussion in Egypt.

:egypt:

[OverKnight]

If it's important enough OK will link to it in the history, which I appreciate greatly :2thumbsup:

If people want a discussion in the Magnaura to be linked into the history, please send me a PM with a link to the discussion, ie the post where it started, and a rationale for the request.

Obviously linking every post made in the Magnaura would add a great deal of work and jam up the History, so not everything is going to be catalouged. I usually link to the Senate when some memorable argument or hissy fit is taking place. Though this is in the eye of the beholder and I make no claim that I've linked to everything memorable.

The History does have a link to the Senate thread at the beginning of each term at least. So if you know which term you made a comment, you can use those links to search for it.

Edit: ATPG might want to edit in a link to the relevant Senate post that would introduce his story. Also linking in that Senate post to the story as well might help to alleviate some, if not all, of the confusion future generations might have when reading the History. :wink:

[Ignoramus]

I'm not very happy. When I loaded the save, fog of was off. Obviously Warmaster Horus had been looking at the save without the fog on. This is completely against the spirit of the game and gives unfair advantages to those who do it.

[Privateerkev]

I'm not very happy. When I loaded the save, fog of was off. Obviously Warmaster Horus had been looking at the save without the fog on. This is completely against the spirit of the game and gives unfair advantages to those who do it.

What is the fun in playing the game with the fog off? :dizzy2:

[Rowan]

The first draft of the Megas Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1988289&postcount=3) is now complete. All comments and criticisms are welcome. Please point out anything I missed or anything that should be improved/added.

Wow. When I suggested the idea I was prepared to write the guide if it was deemed necessary but I never could have done anything near as good as that.

Someone with Megas experience can comment on the substance but I think that guide really lowers the bar to get new people to try their hand at being Chancellor/Megas.

[Ituralde]

Great guide TinCow! This should make being Megas a lot easier for all involved!

Of course a question has come up though concerning the replenishing of RAs/PAs.
Imagine a scenario where the Private Army of House Awesome is standing around in the domain of House Awesome which consists of three provinces. Now each of those provinces has it listed in the SOT that no garrison units may be removed from those cities.

Now the logical thing to do as Megas to replenish the PA of House Awesome would be to recruit the necessary units in the three provinces nearby, but once recruited the Megas could not use them to replenish the PA. My question now is, is the Megas then required by the rules to recruit those units either a) somewhere else in the Empire or b) hire Mercenaries?

Or could he say that he recruited the necessary troops to replenish the PA and force the involved House Awesome to use the newly recruited garrison troops? Or are SOT restrictions on garrison units void if those units were specifically recruited to replenish a RA/PA?


I remember that we had this discussion before but I don't remember the outcome anymore and couldn't find anything in the rules.

[AussieGiant]

Hi Ituralde,

Interesting twist there.

TC even mentions it in the guide under Point 3, section 1, Military Units.

Honestly, if the Megas is replenishing that particular Private army then the fact that they get instantaneously "caught" in a settlement as a "garrison" troops is not valid in my view. This seems a little nutty.

[OverKnight]

Perhaps there should be a cap on how many units can be retained in a city or castle for garrison purposes. Any troops recruited once the cap had been hit would be available for the Megas to use to reinforce armies if he saw fit.

In cases of civil war this would only apply if recruitment was being used to replenish friendly forces.

[Ituralde]

I would like to have it in a way, where you can just recruit those troops and mark them as part of the RA/PA and that makes them exempt from any SOT rules. But in practice this might turn out to be really complicated to keep track of which units are intended for RAs/PAs once we get more of them.

And I don't even want to think about codifying the above in a manner that doesn't result in huge loopholes that completely defeat the whole thing. :inquisitive:



The other way of course would be to negotiate with House Awesome and get them to change their SOTs but to me that seems a very time-consuming process and I don't want to interchange PMs for a day or a half before I can advance the turn...

[Rowan]

Well, there's always the I-can-replenish-your-army-with-local-troops-you-will-release-or-with-peasants-from-halfway-around-the-world argument Megas can use in those situations. :yes:

[Andres]

Perhaps there should be a cap on how many units can be retained in a city or castle for garrison purposes. Any troops recruited once the cap had been hit would be available for the Megas to use to reinforce armies if he saw fit.

In cases of civil war this would only apply if recruitment was being used to replenish friendly forces.

I think that's a good solution.

Something along the lines of : "Garrisons consist of a max of X units (of low quality infantry). If there are more than X units in a settlement, then Y units can be used freely by the Megas, with Y being the number of units in the settlement minus X. Bodyguard units do not count as units in the sense of this article."

[TinCow]

Of course a question has come up though concerning the replenishing of RAs/PAs.
Imagine a scenario where the Private Army of House Awesome is standing around in the domain of House Awesome which consists of three provinces. Now each of those provinces has it listed in the SOT that no garrison units may be removed from those cities.

IMO, this is an IC political issue. The Megas should negotiate with the owners of the settlements to let them release the units. If they don't, he's screwed up in his recruiting and will have to spend another turn trying to get the RA/PAs up to the proper level. I like IC negotiations, and this seems like an area that has so far not been explored much due to the general level of cooperation across the Empire.

The idea of a cap on garrison units would work, but I think simple IC politicking would as well.

[AussieGiant]

Good call TC

You know what I would do IC...I'd simply publish the recruiting queue's and for which armies they are designated for. Then ask if anyone has some issues with the allocation next turn.

If anyone wants to be a pain in the ass, then it wold be right out in the open for all to see. :balloon2:

Nothing like total transparency to get the juices flowing.

[Ituralde]

IMO, this is an IC political issue. The Megas should negotiate with the owners of the settlements to let them release the units. If they don't, he's screwed up in his recruiting and will have to spend another turn trying to get the RA/PAs up to the proper level. I like IC negotiations, and this seems like an area that has so far not been explored much due to the general level of cooperation across the Empire.

The idea of a cap on garrison units would work, but I think simple IC politicking would as well.

The highlight is mine and that's the point that worries me. I am also much in favour of IC politicking, but wouldn't that mean that I'd be breaking the rule for this turn, which is prohibited? And shouldn't that be avoided by the alternatives a) and b) mentioned above.

I'd be very much in favour of just telling House Awesome that I can't replenish their army and it's their fault and they have to fix it, but I can't because I am forced to recruit something for them somewhere.

I see your ruling and think it's good, but it also contradicts things you mentioned earlier and might therefore be hard to understand for everyone.

[TinCow]

The highlight is mine and that's the point that worries me. I am also much in favour of IC politicking, but wouldn't that mean that I'd be breaking the rule for this turn, which is prohibited? And shouldn't that be avoided by the alternatives a) and b) mentioned above.

I'd be very much in favour of just telling House Awesome that I can't replenish their army and it's their fault and they have to fix it, but I can't because I am forced to recruit something for them somewhere.

I see your ruling and think it's good, but it also contradicts things you mentioned earlier and might therefore be hard to understand for everyone.

Well, I wouldn't consider it a rule violation, because in this situation the Megas actually did properly do recruitment for the RA/PA. It just so happened that the person who owned the settlement in which the recruiting occurred then seized those units before they could be removed. That's no different than any current recruitment any of our Megas' have done, except that they all seem to have had cooperation by the Senators who owned the settlements in which they were recruiting. If one of those people suddenly turned and changed their SOT to prevent the removal of those troops after they had been recruited for a RA/PA, there's no real way to blame that on the Megas unless there was some kind of evidence that it was an intentional scheme between the two people in the first place. Even if the Megas' RA/PA recruitment is blocked in this way and someone does complain about it, the Megas would be given time to rectify the situation. He controls the pace at which the game advances, so he could spend as much time as he wanted negotiating with the uncooperative Sentator. He could also just shift future recruiting to a different city which he knows won't cause this kind of problem. Both of these actions would certainly qualify as trying to rectify the situation.

In general, I want to encourage people to use politics and negotiations to solve their problems, not rules. Rules can help simplify a situation, but complexity and uncertainty sometimes adds flavor to the game. It's possible that these situations could cause enough problems to warrant a rule change, but it's also possible that they can be dealt with IC without any new rules. When it comes down to it, the barometer of whether a rule change is necessary is you guys. A rule change can only pass if 2/3 agree with it, and if 2/3 agree with it then it's probably a good thing. I therefore think the proper thing to do in this situation is just to propose a CA (assuming you want a new rule) and take the debate to the Magnaura.

[TinCow]

FYI, I am not opening the new Senate Session until the 1125 AD save has been posted. Ignoramus appears to have finished his term, but somehow forgot to post the newest save. When he does, I will open the next Senate Session.

I will begin working on the Library update this evening.

[_Tristan_]

Just a question :

I've noticed that almost all crusaders have troops despondent, undisciplined or mutinous.

I understand this is due to the SS system but shouldn't our "crusaders" be a bit more fanatical ?

[TinCow]

Possibly, but most of you have also had ridiculously hard voyages. The only one who had it easy then got himself and his entire army slaughtered to the last man. Sounds like a reason to be depressed to me.

[_Tristan_]

OK...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Possibly, but most of you have also had ridiculously hard voyages. The only one who had it easy then got himself and his entire army slaughtered to the last man. Sounds like a reason to be depressed to me.

Just a thought.. Did you change the army supplies trait before the crusade? If not then it's not quite fair because most of the generals already had traits that said 'Army supplies 75 percent' or something like that. So they all should have had a fresh start.

[AussieGiant]

I think the supply system is absolutely perfect for what has been attempted on the Crusade.

Spend years on cramped boats, storms, sabotage, and then land in hostile territory that by the way is predominately desert...seems mild to me.

[TinCow]

I have never touched the supply trait system and I dont see why I should start now. You all knew the risks of the Crusade before you joined, including that you would end up stranded in a far away land that was not Orthodox. That said, I highly doubt whether anyone else will die on the Crusade. The way it is shaping up now, both Alexandria and Cairo will be assaulted by large armies. Even with a hit to your morale from the supply system, I suspect that good generalship can win the assaults without too many difficulties.

If you are all so very afraid of losing, all 6 of you could join forces together and take Alexandria first. Such a huge army would have no chance of being defeated. You could then simply wait in Alexandria until it reached 50% Orthodox and your supplies recovered, and you could then move on Cairo. This would take a long time, but it would work. If you don't want to take a long time, then you are taking a greater risk for a greater reward. The choice is yours to make.

If you really don't like any of these options, I noticed that Igno had moved a large fleet nearby in the 1124 save. If you can get the next Megas to agree to send it to the Egyptian coast, I would consider letting people abandon the Crusade (their army will disband) and sail to wherever the Megas decides to take them.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I knew the risks and there is nothing to change here anymore.. I'm fine with the current situation.
It's just that Vissarionas was 'Out of supplies' and had 'Desperate Troops' at the beginning of the Crusade..
Kind of weird if they were just joining the Crusade and took a lot of supplies with them..
Anyway.. it's all in the past now and we can't change that..
Perhaps when we have our second Crusade or something then all people could get a fresh start..

[Ramses II CP]

Can I throw in a quick eyeroll about the supply system? Supposedly Vissa was in Cairo for years during which his 'army,' presumably living in comfort somewhere in garrison, earned many of those morale lowering effects that have evidently gotten worse. Somehow he's carried those to a completely new and fanatical group of men from the very start. I'm not asking that they be changed because I think they're irrelevant to any battles we may fight.

IMHO the supply system harasses the player with unecessary tedium and absurd resolutions, which is why I voted against it. For IC purposes I am ignoring the traits it throws just as I would ignore 'fair fighter' or 'winning first' when they got improperly tossed in vanilla. As far as battles, there's a simple solution, just move the non-general troops out of the stack and use one group or the other as reinforcements. Or just win the battles with the jedi anyway, the rest of the troops are just fluff and it doesn't matter if they run away at the drop of a hat. I played around with SS4.1 battles a few weeks ago and let me tell you, two general's bodyguards can defeat any stack of regular enemy troops, and using just a bit of cleverness can eliminate enemy generals almost as easily.

:egypt:

[TinCow]

It's just that Vissarionas was 'Out of supplies' and had 'Desperate Troops' at the beginning of the Crusade.


I wish that had been mentioned to me at the time, as I never noticed it. It's impossible for me to change that retroactively and anything I did now would just butcher the game and probably be unfair to some other people. I will consider a 'supply system' reset if I do another Event like this in the future.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I wish I would have been smart enough to look into traits back then :shame:
But yeah.. there is nothing to be done here anymore and like Ramses said.. we can just use our jedi to win the battles :yes:

[ULC]

Such apathy in the Senate these days :clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Such apathy in the Senate these days :clown:

Well.. ATPG's guy just died in there.. what did you expect from people who enjoyed that? :laugh4:

[ULC]

I dunno, someone to at least complain about the mess I was making, getting blood all over the place

:clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think protoasecretes would say something but looks like his too old to notice things like that anymore :laugh4:

EDIT: Yeah! 600th post!:balloon2::balloon2:

[Ramses II CP]

I wish that had been mentioned to me at the time, as I never noticed it. It's impossible for me to change that retroactively and anything I did now would just butcher the game and probably be unfair to some other people. I will consider a 'supply system' reset if I do another Event like this in the future.

I did, btw, mention this via pm about two turns before the crusade (Around when the Pagan Magician issue came up), while GH and I were working on Vissa's return story, and your reply was that you were not editing any supply system traits at that time. I didn't then and don't now think it will have any real effect on the battle, so I hope it's clear that I'm not complaining. :beam:

:egypt:

[Ituralde]

Well, I wouldn't consider it a rule violation, because in this situation the Megas actually did properly do recruitment for the RA/PA. It just so happened that the person who owned the settlement in which the recruiting occurred then seized those units before they could be removed. That's no different than any current recruitment any of our Megas' have done, except that they all seem to have had cooperation by the Senators who owned the settlements in which they were recruiting. If one of those people suddenly turned and changed their SOT to prevent the removal of those troops after they had been recruited for a RA/PA, there's no real way to blame that on the Megas unless there was some kind of evidence that it was an intentional scheme between the two people in the first place. Even if the Megas' RA/PA recruitment is blocked in this way and someone does complain about it, the Megas would be given time to rectify the situation. He controls the pace at which the game advances, so he could spend as much time as he wanted negotiating with the uncooperative Sentator. He could also just shift future recruiting to a different city which he knows won't cause this kind of problem. Both of these actions would certainly qualify as trying to rectify the situation.

In general, I want to encourage people to use politics and negotiations to solve their problems, not rules. Rules can help simplify a situation, but complexity and uncertainty sometimes adds flavor to the game. It's possible that these situations could cause enough problems to warrant a rule change, but it's also possible that they can be dealt with IC without any new rules. When it comes down to it, the barometer of whether a rule change is necessary is you guys. A rule change can only pass if 2/3 agree with it, and if 2/3 agree with it then it's probably a good thing. I therefore think the proper thing to do in this situation is just to propose a CA (assuming you want a new rule) and take the debate to the Magnaura.

That's totally fine with me, just wanted to make sure I am not breaking a rule by doing what you described.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[TinCow]

I did, btw, mention this via pm about two turns before the crusade (Around when the Pagan Magician issue came up), while GH and I were working on Vissa's return story, and your reply was that you were not editing any supply system traits at that time. I didn't then and don't now think it will have any real effect on the battle, so I hope it's clear that I'm not complaining. :beam:

:egypt:

I apologize for being forgetful, but at least I'm consistent. :laugh4: I've learned a lot about the trait system since the whole near-Civil War thing, so my understanding of the problems and benefits is improving. As I said, I will make sure to give some thought to the supply system when I am creating future events. If you guys want to get rid of it altogether, you can just pass a CA to do so. I'll figure out how to disable it if it passes.

This game is for all of you guys, not for me. I will bow to your will on issues like this, because you are the ones that it impacts, not me. I will, however, continue to try and create IC strife however I can. :2thumbsup:

[Privateerkev]

I will, however, continue to try and create IC strife however I can. :2thumbsup:


But it would all be so much more fun if we just sat around sipping tea and eating scones together. :beam:

[Ramses II CP]

FYI the 'edict' is, of course, much more an expression of contempt than an attempt to make law. I hope that's made quite clear by the last bit. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

FYI the 'edict' is, of course, much more an expression of contempt than an attempt to make law. I hope that's made quite clear by the last bit. :laugh4:

:egypt:


I figured but my response was simply what Mak would say. :laugh4:

Now we'll see if anyone seconds it. :clown:

[Rowan]

Ramses, that was great!

(Especially if you have have an unhealthy interest in the current US elections, like me)

[Smowz]

All I shall be away for a mini-break to amsterdam from tomorrow - though i will try to peer into the senate from time to time to discuss and vote on anything that needs voting for.

[Ferret]

Have fun Smowz :2thumbsup:

[TinCow]

All parts of the Library have been updated except for the Bios/Mugshots. Those will probably have to wait until Friday.

[Ituralde]

About the library. I noticed that the House of Komnenodoukai only has an Activity of 2. I don't know about the rest of them, but I have participated in all three Legislation Votings.

Also Ioannis Kontakouzinos has broken his Oath to Ioannis Komnenos and sworn an Oath of fealty to Pavlos Chrysovergos here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1986160&postcount=18). That pushes Pavlos to the rank of Hypatos.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Now.. I'll be gone from friday to sunday I think.. a small holiday..
I hope I can get back before the voting ends..

[AussieGiant]

The Magnaura session is very funny.

more than one avatar metaphorically speaking just stepped over the prostate form of Iakovos ek Kallipoleos and continued talking as if nothing happened.

I'm not sure whether to laugh at the realism of it or the absurdity, because it can't be some middle ground practical consideration. :balloon2:

[OverKnight]

Well the entire session can't be "Murder on the Orient Express" we need to get on with legislation. :laugh4: It'd also be nice to dig up another candidate for Megas.

[ULC]

I can only see the exploding clown as an excuse as to not overreact to a man drenched in blood walking into the Magnaura :clown:.

Still, if things continue with this kind of trend, I wonder what someone will pull to get attention from our apathetic and slow Senators? I can only imagine :clown:

[OverKnight]

What if Aleksios hacked the Patriarchal Represenative to death and then used his entrails to enact a May Pole dance?

Hypothetically speaking of course.

[ULC]

LMAO

Sure, if were talking hypothetically. In reality, I am sure there would be more trying to join in on the fun :clown:

I'm thinking for my next character I might just invite the local tavern in, bringing along the barmaids of coure :wink:

[Ferret]

GH, your last post in the Magnaura made me :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Since recently we have had some 'public letters' and 'speeches' then perhaps a there should be a certain new place for them.. 'City Square' or something?
It's hard to respond to these speeches if they are written in the Stories thread.. I'm sure that Efstathios would have a lot to say there.. :beam:

[Warmaster Horus]

The Hippodrome could be a good place, maybe?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Yeah.. that's true...

Hippodrome have been quite for a long time though..

[Ramses II CP]

Thanks Rowan. :beam:

I presumed that most of the speeches would take place in a common public area, or perhaps a marketplace. Trying to give a speech at a racetrack where gambling and snacks are available might be a bit pointless unless you had a scheduled appearance of some kind. :juggle2:

:egypt:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Thanks Rowan. :beam:

I presumed that most of the speeches would take place in a common public area, or perhaps a marketplace. Trying to give a speech at a racetrack where gambling and snacks are available might be a bit pointless unless you had a scheduled appearance of some kind. :juggle2:

:egypt:

I thought so too.. But if you write your speech in the Stories thread then I can't say what I want..
I would have to use the story format to answer or ask or say what ever I wanted..
If I don't then the Stories thread would become full of 'stories' with couple of sentences or something similar..

[Privateerkev]

You two could do a co-op where your character is in the audience. He can even put you in after the fact since your basically just reacting to his speech. :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That's a pretty good idea :yes:

[Warmaster Horus]

My original idea of putting that kind of announcement in the Hippodrome thread was that people would mass in front of it, and therefore characters could speak there too. Many people=good crowd+speaker=many people who can hear what the speaker says.

[TinCow]

The Hippodrome is a good place, and I would like to see it used more.

[Ramses II CP]

Perhaps on the steps outside the Hippodrome? Seems like a good gathering place where a crowd might be passing by to hear your words. I'll be sure to use that the next time.

My latest post in the Magnaura is the second time I have all but invited someone to declare war and attack Vissa. Perhaps I'll have better luck this time. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

Ramses: :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Oh that made my day...

I think my co-workers looked at me weird because I was laughing out loud...

As for civil war, it will at least be difficult to get to you over in Egypt. :laugh4:

[TinCow]

This game is finally starting to take on the kind of life I was hoping it would. :yes:

I will probably start a recruitment drive after this Senate session is over, because I think we're now big enough to handle some more players.

[Privateerkev]

This game is finally starting to take on the kind of life I was hoping it would. :yes:

What this means is that all of our scheming is finally starting to boil over. :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Ramses.. I bow before you.. that was really a well written 'letter' :bow:

[Rowan]

What a way to apologize!

And now the Budding little Bureaucrat Bart is sitting with all his scrolls and information, waiting to answer questions about his edict, but no one will ask because everybody is just leaning back and enjoying the fireworks! :laugh4:

[Zim]

Nice to see the Magnaura become more interesting this session. :2thumbsup:

[Ignoramus]

Well, what can you expect from the Order? ~;p

[Privateerkev]

Well, what can you expect from the Order? ~;p

Oh I think it was a team effort... :yes:

[TinCow]

All parts of the Library have now been updated except for the Influence table. That will be done later today. Let me know if you see any errors.

[Ituralde]

About the library. I noticed that the House of Komnenodoukai only has an Activity of 2. I don't know about the rest of them, but I have participated in all three Legislation Votings.

Also Ioannis Kontakouzinos has broken his Oath to Ioannis Komnenos and sworn an Oath of fealty to Pavlos Chrysovergos here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1986160&postcount=18). That pushes Pavlos to the rank of Hypatos.

I'm just gonna quote myself here. :beam:

[TinCow]

Thanks. I am also adding the University traits as recently given to me by TheFlax. This will be updated momentarily.

[TinCow]

Influence has now been updated. The following avatars increased in Influence:

Makedonios Ksanthopoulos (Privateerkev) from 1 to 2.
Ioannis Komnenos (Ignoramus) from 3 to 5
Pavlos Chrysovergos (Ituralde) from 1 to 2

All others remained the same. No one decreased in influence.

[GeneralHankerchief]

This is awesome. OK and I have been on the same side for so long it's been sickening. That plus the sheer irony of our roles. :laugh4:

[OverKnight]

Ah yes if only I could find a young, ambitious flunky to help me do the dirty work of removing a troublesome Prelate.

Too bad Al doesn't have another daughter to marry off. :laugh4:

[Motep]

This thread moves right quick, dont it?

Oh! Wait...I really dont have anything relevant to add, it seems. *dances off stage*

[Andres]

Since there's a possiblity I might win the Megas election...

Unexpected, RL will be rather hectic for me the coming week. I can log in to the Org during work, but I can only play the game at home. The thing is, I won't be home much next week, nor next week-end.

A question for the more experienced among us: how long does it take to play one turn as Megas and post the report? More than one hour?

If it's one hour or les, I may be able to do 24 h (and an occasional 48h) turns, but I cannot guarantee anything. If it's longer, I'll probably only manage to do 2, at best 3, turns in the coming week (including the week-end).

If you can all live with the first few turns taking more than 24 hours (probably 48 hours and, in a worst case scenario, 72), I will happily take the role of Megas. It's summer holidays, so maybe a one week slower pace would be ok.

If you however feel this could kill the game, I'll think of an IC reason for Savvas to refuse the office of Megas (he still has the severely injured trait, so I can dump him in Arta and have him retire temporarily from politics).

I would really like to play as Megas, but I don't want my selfish desires kill the game. If you don't want the game to move slowly in the coming week, don't hesitate to say so and I'll withdraw my character from the elections/have him refuse the office.

Sorry for any inconveniece this may cause.

[TinCow]

We've been going at an unexpectedly fast past for the past couple Megas turns. Most have been done within the 24 hour per turn period. That is NOT mandatory by any means. If you need to take 48 hours or more per turn for a week, that is perfectly fine. Many turns in KOTR took well in excess of 72 hours, so you don't need to worry about slowing down the game too much, especially if it's only for a week.

[Privateerkev]

Next friday (22nd), I am leaving town in the morning (US CT) and I will not be back until Sunday (24th) during the day. I have a wedding to go to for a cousin "downstate." I do not think I will even have internet access for those two days.

So, if elected, I will try to time things so I can release the new save for whatever turn we are on Friday morning. Then people will have their free move for that turn until I come back Sunday. That should leave the least amount of "deadtime." Other than that, I anticipate doing 24 hour turns for the rest of my term. Work has gone back to normal hours so I'll be off by 4:30PM US CT every weekday. So I will sync it so I take the save back when I get home from work every day.

[Ramses II CP]

I wouldn't worry about slow turns, our avatars are aging fast enough as it is, and whole years seem to pass without significant IC events. Maybe this way we'll have time to generate more conflict via discussion between Senate sessions. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Motep]

I wouldn't worry about slow turns, our avatars are aging fast enough as it is, and whole years seem to pass without significant IC events. Maybe this way we'll have time to generate more conflict via discussion between Senate sessions. :laugh4:

:egypt:


Thus we have our bright side.

And I will have time to ease myself in before I screw much up.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I know I for one would appreciate a little bit more time to complete some stories and continue machinations.

[TinCow]

For clarity, the 24 hour part of the rules was intended to make sure people always had at least that amount of time to make their turns. It was never intended to be the standard turn length that everyone should try and conform to. If a slower pace is desired by the majority, that should probably be done.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

People shouldn't be worried that this could slow down the game..

Looks like the summer have already done it :laugh4:

[OverKnight]

Dun! Dun! Dunnnnnnnn!

Is this the end of Apionnas Vringas?

I still think "Byzantine Intrigues" would have been a more fitting title for the PBM. :laugh4:

[Ignoramus]

Couldn't he have voted first?

[OverKnight]

True enough, perhaps his captors will kindly let him put in an absentee ballot.

[Ignoramus]

Of course.

Vote No. 1: Fatimid Sultan!

[AussieGiant]

Voting will be via satellite. Don't worry. :balloon2:

I just wish I was in the Senate to make comment. This type of story is the only type that would keep me away from contributing.

[OverKnight]

Maybe you could have some uppity proxy speak for you? It's all the rage. :laugh4:

[AussieGiant]

Indeed.

With all the pomp and drama that one of those can bring to the occasion. :beam:

[TinCow]

It is worth noting that while weapons and violence are not permitted in the Magnaura, there's nothing which says an annoying scribe can't be dragged out to the Hippodrome and 'done for' out there. Just don't get the shiny marble floors messy.

[AussieGiant]

I was always fairly happy with the subtle threats of violence and bodily harm that we managed to get through to each other in the last game.

Although I could obviously not do the sword wielding furniture destroying speeches I did before...

...still, it's the middle ages. I wouldn't be seen dead without a whole bunch of weapons strapped to me. It's all so civilised.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Just a note as nothing was mentioned in the story post, but I gave full approval to AG's current storyline and have even been helping him with it.

[AussieGiant]

Ahh sorry about that.

I'll edit that in now. :shame:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Now.. This might seem not that important but I just looked the SOT thread (just because I saw Motep posted there:clown:) and I saw that some people have old information in it.
It's not important to me but it's important to who ever is the Megas so perhaps people could edit their posts there more often:yes:
Just a little suggestion:yes:

[Privateerkev]

Actually it's important to the players themselves. The Megas can pretty much do what he wants if the SOT doesn't forbid it. It's in the players own interest to update their SOT regularly.

[Privateerkev]

Election is tied.

:wall:

This election has shown a.) how important even one vote is, and b.) how important extra influence is.

[Kagemusha]

So how do we proceed with the selection of Megas?

[Privateerkev]

So how do we proceed with the selection of Megas?

we'll go through it all again. If we tie a second time, Savvas will win since the avatar is older.

[Kagemusha]

we'll go through it all again. If we tie a second time, Savvas will win since the avatar is older.

Fair enough.:smash:

[Privateerkev]

Fair enough.:smash:

"age before beauty"

:beam:

[Kagemusha]

"age before beauty"

:beam:

Lets see how it will turn out.:2thumbsup:

[Ituralde]

Yeah Extra Influence is quite important. While going through the Library I noted that the House of the Komnenodoukai had has much votes as the Order and that was before Motep joined. :2thumbsup:

[Privateerkev]

Yeah Extra Influence is quite important. While going through the Library I noted that the House of the Komnenodoukai had has much votes as the Order and that was before Motep joined. :2thumbsup:

Yup, the Caesar has done very well in expanding the influence of his House this last term. :yes:

*edit*

It's funny how close it was. Mak would actually have 1 more influence except for the fact that he got pneumonia and one of those lame "superstition" traits. That, and 2 of Mak's voters never showed up. Activity is very important in this game and this election proves it.

[GeneralHankerchief]

All right boys, I'm willing to entertain all fantastic promises in order to gain my vote. As the lone abstainer, go ahead and start beggin'. :evilgrin:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sorry for the double post, but I think this warrants a separate one:

Can the first anti-Patriarch Senator who reads this please post in the thread so I can contact you regarding something (OOC)?

Thanks.

[Privateerkev]

All right boys, I'm willing to entertain all fantastic promises in order to gain my vote. As the lone abstainer, go ahead and start beggin'. :evilgrin:

:deal:

[_Tristan_]

I'll be this anti-patriarch Senator... if you want...

[Andres]

Sorry for the double post, but I think this warrants a separate one:

Can the first anti-Patriarch Senator who reads this please post in the thread so I can contact you regarding something (OOC)?

Thanks.

I'm here.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yeah, but is your character truly anti-Patriarch? You did vote against 4.5.

-edit- Nvm, Andres has it.

[_Tristan_]

As you want... But Methodios has 1-piety and doesn't want to see the Patriarch in Alexandria...

Though i'd like to do a story with you about his relocation if I happen to take the town...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

IF Methodios is going to take the town! :evil:


If there are multiple Crusaders in the conquering army, they must all agree on who will command the attack and who will receive the city prior to assaulting the city.

This from the Crusade rules.. So once Efstathios lays siege to the city them.. Methodios must ask his approval to attack the city :devil:

[woad&fangs]

no, because you will be seiging it seperately. Only me and Tristan have to agree about who will attack and who will get Alexandria because we have formally allied.

[TinCow]

Ah, no. Permission is only required from people in the same stack that is attacking. All other stacks will be moved so that they do not partake in the battle at all. People need only to be in agreement with their allies, not everyone else. It's one of the 'penalties' for allying.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

So if I want to attack the city then TC will remove the other Crusaders and I'll be left alone??

[Ramses II CP]

So who will be playing the part of the Council of whatever to help the Emperor pick the new Patriarch of Constantinople? Perchance some members of the Order? :laugh4:

Or is all that just a rubber stamp for the Emperor's own decision as to who gets the Patriarchy?

:egypt:

[TinCow]

So if I want to attack the city then TC will remove the other Crusaders and I'll be left alone??

Correct. Allies make it easier to take the cities, but require you to split the rewards, some of which cannot easily be split.

[Privateerkev]

So who will be playing the part of the Council of whatever to help the Emperor pick the new Patriarch of Constantinople? Perchance some members of the Order? :laugh4:

Since we didn't define the actual position, like we did with the Dean, I am assuming it will just be a NPC that gets the title. Maybe the Bishop agent we have.

[TinCow]

For the record (since I can't tell whether the Magnaura question was serious or in jest) the basis for a second tie going to the oldest candidate goes all the way back to WOTS. econ21 wrote it that way, figuring that the oldest avatar would die sooner and thus have fewer chances to run for office again, while the younger guy would have more chances to take the role. I'm sure he'd be proud to know that 2.5 years later, his rule finally got used.

[Privateerkev]

I see Smowz finally logged in. I missed winning the election by only 2 hours... :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

Oh pretty much everything I've said this session has been in jest, a demonstration of contempt, etc, etc. I'm finally in position to appreciate having an avatar with a disloyalty trait. :laugh4:

I'm sure I read that rule many times and, like everyone else, never figured it'd be used. I would prefer to base it on authority, command stars, heck, even piety or loyalty over age, but obviously that'd have to wait for the next Senate session, and how likely is it to happen again?

:egypt:

[Smowz]

Damn I missed the vote by three hours.... I spent hours wandering the streets of Amsterdam looking for a place to go to check.

I even had this https://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x62/Smowz/Byzantium.jpg

to help find my way.

Well my 6 week holidays end on wednesday so I guess I will be online and participating at bit more soon!!!

[Privateerkev]

I'm sure I read that rule many times and, like everyone else, never figured it'd be used. I would prefer to base it on authority, command stars, heck, even piety or loyalty over age, but obviously that'd have to wait for the next Senate session, and how likely is it to happen again?


It might happen again in a couple days... :laugh4:

*edit*

love the sign. :D

[Motep]

I will abstain next time, as I dont really know who either person is, or what thier political goals are...

And I dont really know where to look...

[Ferret]

I loved your tie announcement post TC :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

I will abstain next time, as I dont really know who either person is, or what thier political goals are...

And I dont really know where to look...

Ah, so I was done in by the "uninformed voter." (As well as non-voters.) :laugh4:

I'm amused by how much these political PBM's reflect real life politics sometimes. :beam:

[Motep]

I just picked a guy...:shame:

Seriously, what do you two have in mind to change the empire?

[Privateerkev]

I just picked a guy...:shame:

That's awesome... This historic moment was brought about because someone played "eenie, meenie, miney, moe." :laugh4:


Seriously, what do you two have in mind to change the empire?

Our platforms are in the Magnaura. You can read them there, and ask us both questions. Since you have sworn to someone, you might want to ask that person what they think. They will probably have very definite ideas on who you should vote for. When in doubt, vote how your lord does... :yes:

[GeneralHankerchief]

If you want, I can forward you the PMs sent to my "generic Senator" persona, since I'm probably just going to abstain again...

[Motep]

That's awesome... This historic moment was brought about because someone played "eenie, meenie, miney, moe." :laugh4:



Our platforms are in the Magnaura. You can read them there, and ask us both questions. Since you have sworn to someone, you might want to ask that person what they think. They will probably have very definite ideas on who you should vote for. When in doubt, vote how your lord does... :yes:


I do not as of yet trust my lord's judgement.

I have read reports from the council, and have decided to lay my vote with you,
Makedonios Ksanthopoulos. Maybe you can bring Morality back to the empire?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Yes.. Don't trust your Lord, your big brother, for his a bully :clown:

[woad&fangs]

That's going to make for some awkward Komnenos family picnics.

[Motep]

That's going to make for some awkward Komnenos family picnics.


:grin2:

[Privateerkev]

I do not as of yet trust my lord's judgement.

I have read reports from the council, and have decided to lay my vote with you,
Makedonios Ksanthopoulos. Maybe you can bring Morality back to the empire?

Just so people don't get confused, (and i am easily confused,) we try to keep what we call "IC" and "OOC" separate in these games.

IC stands for "in character." When I speak to you "IC", I am speaking as Grandmaster Makedonios. The lovable, huggable, squeezable fighting monk.

OOC stands for "out of character." When I speak to you "OOC", I am speaking to you as Kevin the .Org member. Still equally lovable, huggable, and squeezable. But not a fighting monk.

This thread, named not-coincidentally, the OOC thread, is where the players talk to each other OOC. We try not to bring IC stuff in here. Especially since we tend to yell at each other IC a lot.

Other threads, like the Magnaura, Hippodrome, and House threads are IC threads. People tend to speak to each other as their character and will be confused if you speak to them OOC.

Please let us know if you have any questions. :beam:

[Motep]

Yeah, I know...

I just felt like saying that here...:shame:

And as to what people are saying about him, I must find out more abou this brother of mine. Would my person (a morally inclined person with a touch of bloodlust) actually support him?

[Privateerkev]

And as to what people are saying about him, I must find out more abou this brother of mine. Would my person (a morally inclined person with a touch of bloodlust) actually support him?

That's something you'll just have to figure out for yourself in the game. It's part of the fun. :2thumbsup:

[flyd]

I can't wait for Igno to become Emperor and start to ban political opponents from the Magnaura. For long enough now have we run a simulation of a modern democracy, time to give the single-party totalitarian state its fifteen minutes. Complain while you can, ek Lesvou, Comrade Emperor Ioannis won't stand for it.

[Motep]

That's something you'll just have to figure out for yourself in the game. It's part of the fun. :2thumbsup:

It was a rhetorical question, one that I intend on answering in the next few turns...if they ever come...

Anyways, I am seriously considering switching houses...though my current one is powerful, it appears to be devoid of morality...

And besides, being the enemy of the powerful ones is usually more fun than being theri allies!

[Ramses II CP]

I can't wait for Igno to become Emperor and start to ban political opponents from the Magnaura. For long enough now have we run a simulation of a modern democracy, time to give the single-party totalitarian state its fifteen minutes. Complain while you can, ek Lesvou, Comrade Emperor Ioannis won't stand for it.

I am deeply hopeful that I can get him to declare civil war first so I can kill him for his crimes. Indeed, you might say everything Vissa has done for the last X years has been geared towards that goal. Weep for my choice of a chivalry character, else we'd have our war going already. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Motep]

I sense insurrection. *rubs hands together* Things are getting interesting!

[TinCow]

Anyways, I am seriously considering switching houses...though my current one is powerful, it appears to be devoid of morality...

I conveniently ignored the first time you switched your oaths because you are new and also because oaths can't technically be sworn during a Senate session (though it doesn't matter since you're just a Strator). However I will not do so again. You are currently sworn to Ioannis Komnenos. If you break this oath and do not immediately re-swear to someone within the same House, unless Ignoramus gives his permission this oath breaking will be presumed to have been done without his consent and you will be barred from swearing to another Lord for 5 turns. That just means that you can't join another House until 5 turns has passed.

You can find this info in Rule 2.5, and clarified a bit in the second to last FAQ question.

[Motep]

I conveniently ignored the first time you switched your oaths because you are new and also because oaths can't technically be sworn during a Senate session (though it doesn't matter since you're just a Strator). However I will not do so again. You are currently sworn to Ioannis Komnenos. If you break this oath and do not immediately re-swear to someone within the same House, unless Ignoramus gives his permission this oath breaking will be presumed to have been done without his consent and you will be barred from swearing to another Lord for 5 turns. That just means that you can't join another House until 5 turns has passed.

You can find this info in Rule 2.5, and clarified a bit in the second to last FAQ question.

Oh...I skimmed taht part...:shame:

[TinCow]

The penalty for skimming the rules.... IS DEATH!

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/prisons/assets/executioner.jpg

[Motep]

:cry:

[deguerra]

A minor thing, TC, while Anna's naming has taken a turn for the worse, I'm not quite ready to ban my newest son from the family just yet, so if you could add Ammonathas to my children that would be great.

[Ramses II CP]

The penalty for skimming the rules.... IS DEATH!

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/prisons/assets/executioner.jpg

Unless you're the first Megas to grossly abuse the rules in which case you'll get a pass... three times running.

:egypt:

[TinCow]

Unless you're the first Megas to grossly abuse the rules in which case you'll get a pass... three times running.

:egypt:

No, that's the penalty for reading them and ignoring them. Skimming is far, far worse!

[Motep]

No, that's the penalty for reading them and ignoring them. Skimming is far, far worse!


No, I am too young to die!

(My avatar is 17, and has a receding hairline...:brood:)

[TinCow]

From the Magnaura:


The following have been accepted for the position of Scholar in the University of Constantinople for the period of 1125 to 1140.

- Ceasar Ioannis Komnenos

Looks like we might finally get to find out how well this whole Banishment power works.:devil:

[Ignoramus]

I'm actually surprised how Ioannis is turning out. I tried roleplaying him historically, but historically he was loved by everyone, not hated, so that's gone out the window.

I can't promise you anything, but Ioannis won't go the way of Wolfgang. He's going to achieve his ends.

[Motep]

I'm actually surprised how Ioannis is turning out. I tried roleplaying him historically, but historically he was loved by everyone, not hated, so that's gone out the window.

I can't promise you anything, but Ioannis won't go the way of Wolfgang. He's going to achieve his ends.

Lets hope so. If your ends are not achieved, than we will have nothing to unravel!

Anywho, my avatar am shamed. Your avatar 21 years older than mine, and yours has a fuller head of hair!

[woad&fangs]

Count yourself lucky. Solomon has scurvy and Makedonios has had Pneumonia for 40+ years. Not to mention what's going to happen to Laskaris...

[Ignoramus]

It's strange, every single avatar I've had has hardly had a negative trait. Ioannis doesn't, and Sigismund der Stolze never had one either.

[Motep]

Count yourself lucky. Solomon has scurvy and Makedonios has had Pneumonia for 40+ years. Not to mention what's going to happen to Laskaris...

But they have a full head of hair! :cry:

(Note: I very well may follow the males on my mothers side of the family, and start balding at 18. I Pray that doesnt happen...)

[Privateerkev]

No, I am too young to die!

(My avatar is 17, and has a receding hairline...:brood:)

Vissa was 16 or so I think and has that dome you see in Ramses's avatar. :beam:


Looks like we might finally get to find out how well this whole Banishment power works.:devil:

And we will see how the banishment counter-measures work... :2thumbsup:


I'm actually surprised how Ioannis is turning out. I tried roleplaying him historically, but historically he was loved by everyone, not hated, so that's gone out the window.

I assure you everything going on in the game was brought about because of IC interaction. :yes:


Count yourself lucky. Solomon has scurvy and Makedonios has had Pneumonia for 40+ years. Not to mention what's going to happen to Laskaris...

And people wonder why Mak gets cranky... :brood:

[OverKnight]

While this is all fascinating, would you mind blowing up the Empire after Aleksios is dead? I'm trying to mantain the illusion he actually accomplished something. :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

Why this is all fascinating, would you mind blowing up the Empire after Aleksios is dead? I'm trying to mantain the illusion he actually accomplished something. :laugh4:

He did accomplish something. He set this all up. We would have nothing to tear down if it wasn't for what Aleksios built up. :beam:

[Ignoramus]

And there would be nothing for Ioannis to defend if Aleksios hadn't reigned.

[Privateerkev]

And there would be nothing for Ioannis to defend if Aleksios hadn't reigned.

And there would be no reason to tear it down if it wasn't for Ioannis... oh wait, we're supposed to be talking about Aleksios... :beam:

[Ignoramus]

If there is a civil war(which would be the fault of traitors), then the empire will come out of it stronger and better.

[ULC]

If there is a civil war(which would be the fault of traitors), then the empire will come out of it stronger and better.

"Traitors" usually need a rallying point, and a reason for betrayal, such as, say, the Caesar?

:clown:

[Privateerkev]

If there is a civil war(which would be the fault of traitors), then the empire will come out of it stronger and better.

I totally agree. People definitely see the Caesar IC as being a traitor... :clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Count yourself lucky. Solomon has scurvy and Makedonios has had Pneumonia for 40+ years. Not to mention what's going to happen to Laskaris...

Umm..now what will happen to him then?? :inquisitive::laugh4:

[Kagemusha]

Or maybe the order will be crushed as mere traitors. Only time will tell what will happen.:2thumbsup:

[OverKnight]

Speaking of inter-house relations, are we seeing a merge in two houses, or is Savvas jumping over to the Asteri?

[Ferret]

I was wondering the same thing, maybe rossah left the Asteri for the Tagamata? Too bad the people who can answer are in aussie time...

[OverKnight]

Well, any influence changes wouldn't take effect until the new term.

Still I am curious. I was wondering when the "Big Three" would start gobbling up the two smaller houses or if there would be fragmentation instead.

I should be paying more attention, I'll have to be dealing with House politics more directly soon enough.

[Rowan]

Since Savvas accepted Zigavinos' oath without breaking his own, house Asteri is at the moment just Kalameteros while Tagamata gained 3 more members. Things are getting... interesting.

[Andres]

Well, any influence changes wouldn't take effect until the new term.

Still I am curious. I was wondering when the "Big Three" would start gobbling up the two smaller houses or if there would be fragmentation instead.

I should be paying more attention, I'll have to be dealing with House politics more directly soon enough.

Technically, the senate is no longer in session. It's "open for debate", but no legislation can be proposed.

Since the senate is no longer in session, oaths can be broken and sworn.


If, at any point, a Senator ceases to meet the requirements of their existing rank, they will be demoted to the highest rank whose requirements they meet.

I think this means the influence changes have immediate effect.

[Andres]

Since Savvas accepted Zigavinos' oath without breaking his own, house Asteri is at the moment just Kalameteros while Tagamata gained 3 more members. Things are getting... interesting.

Exciting, isn't it?

[rossahh]

Why don't we just wait and see what happens with Ioannis, we don't want him to be lonely for too long, do we? :sweatdrop:


Aussie time means night time right now (7:55), EF.

[deguerra]

I hope not. :sweatdrop:

Andres?

[Ignoramus]

The fact is that we don't have enough players to support 5 houses. Without a private army, houses are too weak to be of much importance. The more members you have, the stronger you are.

[deguerra]

Ignoramus brings up a good point of discussion.

Houses were never part of the rule set and their entities are not set in stone. The idea, just pending some OOC approval, is for Tagmata to remain independent as a House, but join our feudal chain.

Nobody ever said that one house = one feudal chain, that is just how things played out at the beginning. given that we have lost a few members, and that a few are taking some time in between characters, I thought it was a good time to challenge that initial set-up a bit. We'll see if it can work...

[Ituralde]

As you say Houses are nothing more or less than what we make of it IC. I think with generation changes this will become more and more obvious and Houses will shift, appear, disappear and even reappear. I think the whole dynamic involving the feudal chains and Houses is one of the more interesting things in this game.

[AussieGiant]

Whatever we do, lets not make any more rules about it.

[Andres]

Whatever we do, lets not make any more rules about it.

:yes:

I like it as it is. The more freedom, the better. It allows for arrangements, agreements, treaties, conventions between Houses and Senators, spiced up with the occasional backstabbing, word breaking, lying, and disputes about interpretation of what has been agreed :smitten:

[deguerra]

:laugh4:

With that I can agree

edit: also can somebody please tell me how to do tables for one's signature. I am very confused.

[AussieGiant]

:yes:

I like it as it is. The more freedom, the better. It allows for arrangements, agreements, treaties, conventions between Houses and Senators, spiced up with the occasional backstabbing, word breaking, lying, and disputes about interpretation of what has been agreed :smitten:

Exactly.

Consult our resident lawyer for any advise if there are concerns.

[Privateerkev]

I see a re-vote as an exstension of a normal senate session. Therefore, I think it would be really unfair to let influence change place between a voting session and a re-voting session. I stayed quiet when we let Motep join after the session started. But if we let influence change between a vote and a re-vote, I will call "shenanigans." :yes:

As for "Houses" those are just made up entities and they can be what ever we want. The rules are based on "Feudal Chains", not Houses. A Chain can be called anything. You can call your chain a house, knightly order, politburo, ect... Therefore, a "house" is a made up construct and can be anything at all. It could be seperate chains, one member from each chain, the whole empire, anything.

*edit*

I realized the first part could sound harsh so I add this :clown: smiley for your viewing pleasure.

[AussieGiant]

There should be no change in influence for the second vote in my view.

[AussieGiant]

God I would just love to be able to say something in the Magnaura right now!!!

:yes:

[Privateerkev]

I remember OK saying something similar when Matt was stuck in a Greek prison. :beam:

You could just use a proxy to do your talking for you. They seem to be all the rage...

[Andres]

I see a re-vote as an exstension of a normal senate session. Therefore, I think it would be really unfair to let influence change place between a voting session and a re-voting session. I stayed quiet when we let Motep join after the session started. But if we let influence change between a vote and a re-vote, I will call "shenanigans." :yes:


I disagree.

The Senate session was closed. The current "session" is just a re-opening of the Senate for debate, not an "extension" of the previous session.

a) the previous session was closed, you cannot extend what has been closed;
b) the current debates are not a senate session, since we are now no longer discussing/proposing legislation, nor is there a possibility for each senator to propose himself as candidate for Megas. These debates focus solely on the two current candidates and as such, the debates do not qualify as senate sessions.

Of course, if TinCow has a different viewpoint, I will accept that.

EDIT : additonal arguments:


3.1 –Sessions: The Senate will meet in a Normal Session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each Normal and Emergency Session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting. econ21 or TinCow can change the length of individual sessions at will.

3.2 – Proposing Legislation: During each session, Senators may propose Edicts and Amendments, up to the limit allowed by their rank. Edicts and Amendments must be seconded by two other Senators before they can be put to the vote.

3.1 says that there can be debates out of session. The Protoasecretes announced that the Senate will be open for debate. I think this has to be interpreted as just that: debate.

To back up this argumentation, I invoke rule 3.2. which clearly states that "during each session, Senators may propose Edicts and Amendments". Now, the Protoasecretes clearly stated that we cannot propose Edicts/Amendments (I believe he used the word "legislation, which is the same) during these debates. Now, rule 3.1 clearly says that we are allowed to propose legislation during a Senate Session. Since we cannot propose legislation now, the current debate does not qualifiy as a Senate Session.

Since we are now not having a senate session, the new oaths and the influence changes that come with it, come into effect and will have to be considered when counting the votes in the current re-vote.

[Privateerkev]

We'll see what TC says. But if he rules that the influence can change, to say that I would be "unhappy" would be a gigantic understatement...

I see the Senate Session as still ongoing. Therefore, any influence that changes hands has to wait for the session to end. Plus, to reinforce my point, the new save has not been released. So, we're not even in the next term.

The candidates can lobby people to switch their votes. And even to get people to promise to "jump ship" after the session is over. But no influence can change hands between votes.

The way I see it, influence is "frozen" until the new save game is released. Plus, we wouldn't even have been in this position if it wasn't for Motep. I was never keen on letting a new player vote when he hadn't even sat through a whole Senate Session. But I kept quiet. But if we let influence change around, that will be too much IMHO.

[Ramses II CP]

I think the key point is that we didn't open a new Senate session, we re-opened the old one to settle business that had yet to be settled. I imagine the same thing would happen if, by some chance, an Edict passed that was discovered not to be legal after the fact. These are the exact words of the Protoasecretes:

"As this is unprecedented in the history of the entire Known World, I will re-oppen the Senate floor for debate for a 24 hour period." (Emphasis added, but corrections not made)

Also I'd like to note that I've now invited three characters to declare war on Vissa or take some civil war worthy action, and in all three cases I appear to have been declined. I genuinely worry that our ruleset has created too much stability, and eventually I may want to take Vissa a little out of character to make the declaration himself.

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

Also I'd like to note that I've now invited three characters to declare war on Vissa or take some civil war worthy action, and in all three cases I appear to have been declined. I genuinely worry that our ruleset has created too much stability, and eventually I may want to take Vissa a little out of character to make the declaration himself.

Something tells me that if you were sitting in Constantinople, instead of Egypt, more people would take you up on it. You are now very inconvenient to make war on... :laugh4:

As for stability, this is exactly what people wanted when we wrote these rules. A couple of us, you and me included, wanted things to be more fluid. But a lot of people wanted those in power to be able to keep it easier. Which is exactly why influence is static during a senate session. It's to prevent a vassal from holding his lord "hostage" during a vote.

Also, I think we tend towards stability ourselves. We have the option to move the chains around pretty much at will so people take comfort in that and then don't upset the apple cart. It is hard to swim uphill. And I have used far too many metaphores.

[_Tristan_]

I'd like to put an option on Methodios' son Ioannis, in case things go bad in Alexandria...:skull:

[Privateerkev]

I'd like to put an option on Methodios' son Ioannis, in case things go bad in Alexandria...:skull:

Is that like a stock option? Would you be willing to "sell short" on that option? :clown:

[TinCow]

Apologies to all, but I do not have time to read the previous posts or to read or answer any PMs that have been sent to me recently. My wife has come down with appendicitis and is going into surgery this afternoon. This is not a serious operation, but I will be AWOL for the rest of today (unless the hospital ends up having wifi) and some part of tomorrow. Please forgive any tardiness in posting or replying to PMs.

I know the vote is due to commence while I will be AWOL. Both GH and OK have my permission to end debate and open up the voting thread when the time expires. I expect to be back on a normal schedule before it finishes.

[Kagemusha]

I hope the surgery goes well. All the best to your family.:yes:

[Privateerkev]

Sorry to hear that TC. I hope everything turns out ok. :beam:

[Motep]

I am controversial! Yay! :cheesy:

[Ramses II CP]

Apologies to all, but I do not have time to read the previous posts or to read or answer any PMs that have been sent to me recently. My wife has come down with appendicitis and is going into surgery this afternoon. This is not a serious operation, but I will be AWOL for the rest of today (unless the hospital ends up having wifi) and some part of tomorrow. Please forgive any tardiness in posting or replying to PMs.

I know the vote is due to commence while I will be AWOL. Both GH and OK have my permission to end debate and open up the voting thread when the time expires. I expect to be back on a normal schedule before it finishes.

I'll keep you and your family in my thoughts TC. Hope the laparoscopic procedure is still possible in her case, it's supposed to make a big difference in the time to heal.

Wife had her gall bladder out rather suddenly about a year ago, and while it was scary at the time she remembers it now as a pretty decent three day vacation. We were at a brand new hospital with essentially an entire floor to ourselves and a bored, doting staff. :laugh4:

FYI frequent, gentle shoulder massages help with the absorption of the air left over after a lap, at least they did for us, and that was the most painful bit of the whole deal.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

By the way, I'm quite pleased to see that we now have all the real LotR villains in a single House. Makes things quite a bit easier for the future. :yes:

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

For those election watchers like me, I have figured out what influence has changed if TC rules in favor of Andres. I figure, until this is resolved, we should just keep two seperate tallies. One with the one interpretation of the influence, and one with the other.

I have gone through the chain changes in both Asteri and the Caesar's House.

And with all that shifting around, only 1 influence has changed.

Kalameteros loses the ability to get 1 influence from being married to Anna because he no longer has the rank to make use of it.

So, for those of you keeping tallies out of curiosity, count degeurra as 1 influence in one and 2 influence in the other.

If anyone else finds any influence changes, please let me know. :book:

[Kagemusha]

By the way, I'm quite pleased to see that we now have all the real LotR villains in a single House. Makes things quite a bit easier for the future. :yes:

:egypt:

What Villains? You mean that you are finally coming out clean with the dirty and treacherous plans of the St.John?:holiday:

[Privateerkev]

What Villains? You mean that you are finally coming out clean with the dirty and treacherous plans of the St.John?:holiday:

What's funny is that no one can name a single dirty and treacherous plan of ours other than vague abstracts. :laugh4:

That other house though, has "real" villians in it. From a certain biased subjective point of view of course. :beam:

[Kagemusha]

What's funny is that no one can name a single dirty and treacherous plan of ours other than vague abstracts. :laugh4:

That other house though, has "real" villians in it. From a certain biased subjective point of view of course. :beam:

Mere slander and rumours!:laugh4: It seems Kantakouzinos is starting to develop into a Goebbels like a character. Im really starting to have fun with that guy. Its not like some houses plans have been revealed, more like they have done what they have wanted to do, no matter of some biased opponents of them:2thumbsup:

[Motep]

*craks open a beverage and grabs some popcorn*

Most interesting up in this abode.

[Privateerkev]

I am controversial! Yay! :cheesy:

Welcome to the club... :2thumbsup:


Mere slander and rumours!:laugh4: It seems Kantakouzinos is starting to develop into a Goebbels like a character. Im really starting to have fun with that guy. Its not like some houses plans have been revealed, more like they have done what they have wanted to do, no matter of some biased opponents of them:2thumbsup:

I'm glad your having fun with him now. I know you were a little dissillussioned with him a few weeks ago. :yes:

As for Houses "doing what they want to do," I think they've all done that to a certain extent. Which is the point. Imperial politics is a web of competing interests all tugging at each other. They all believe their vision is the right one for the Empire and they all need political power in order to bring about their vision.

[Kagemusha]

I'm glad your having fun with him now. I know you were a little dissillussioned with him a few weeks ago. :yes:

As for Houses "doing what they want to do," I think they've all done that to a certain extent. Which is the point. Imperial politics is a web of competing interests all tugging at each other. They all believe their vision is the right one for the Empire and they all need political power in order to bring about their vision.

Yes.You are absolutely right in that.:yes:

[Motep]

Welcome to the club... :2thumbsup:



I'm glad your having fun with him now. I know you were a little dissillussioned with him a few weeks ago. :yes:

As for Houses "doing what they want to do," I think they've all done that to a certain extent. Which is the point. Imperial politics is a web of competing interests all tugging at each other. They all believe their vision is the right one for the Empire and they all need political power in order to bring about their vision.

Thank you for the gracious welcome. There should be a group...

To add to your point, they do what they see is right no matter what...despite the fact that they are usually wrong.

[Motep]

. There should be a group...



And now there is! :2thumbsup:

[Privateerkev]

And now there is! :2thumbsup:

The controversial players group...

:laugh4:

Jan from KotR would definitely qualify. :yes:

I don't think Mak is any more "controversial" than any of the other high profile characters.

Efstratios probably could have qualified. Hypatios is in there. Maybe Anastatios. The Caesar I am not sure of. He is controversial to some but not to others.