OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[Ignoramus]

Any specific reason you quoted me?

:clown:

This one.

:clown:

Actually, it was a mistake.

[ULC]

This one.

:clown:

Actually, it was a mistake.

Well, which question then! Don't confuse me like that!

:clown:

I can do this endlessly you know :clown:

[Northnovas]

I'm going on a short one week vacation from the 22nd of September until the 30th of September (or 1st of October).

I'd love to resume play with Savvas once I return :jumping:

Thnx for keeping him alive and giving him is two bottles of wine/per day during my absence :bow:

And I also demand a wage increase! 1000 florins/turn for each Senator, a 15 hour work week and at least 100 days off/a year!

Aux barricades, citoyens! :soapbox:

Alright I can stop pming myself! :guitarist: Glad to have you active again. :pleased:

[Privateerkev]

You know what, yelling in the Magnaura a few minutes ago made me realize something.

I still haven't gotten over the fact OOC that Ignoramus broke the rules multiple times without being punished. I thought I did, but it is still lingering there and affecting my IC interactions.

Combine that with the fact that I've been punished OOC for relatively minor things and I feel this game is ruined for me.

I know the whole "Ignoramus broke the rules" thing has been beaten to death OOC and I have no desire to open up that can of worms again. I personally think TC made a very bad call as GM when he let Ig slide three times but I fear that ship has long sailed.

So, since I can't get over it, and I am finding myself getting more and more pissed off in "real life" over this, I have decided to quit the game. Please kill Makedonios immediately.


New will: Give everything to Armatos or let him distribute it.

Thanks for the ride guys but at some point, this all started to really suck. :bow:

[pevergreen]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PK DONT DO IT!!!

Caps Lock aside, don't make a hasty decision. Or if it is really that bad, don't go right out and kill him.

You are one of the major players here PK, plus without you, Michail loses his only target of anger thats left alive!

[TinCow]

You know what, yelling in the Magnaura a few minutes ago made me realize something.

I still haven't gotten over the fact OOC that Ignoramus broke the rules multiple times without being punished. I thought I did, but it is still lingering there and affecting my IC interactions.

Combine that with the fact that I've been punished OOC for relatively minor things and I feel this game is ruined for me.

I know the whole "Ignoramus broke the rules" thing has been beaten to death OOC and I have no desire to open up that can of worms again. I personally think TC made a very bad call as GM when he let Ig slide three times but I fear that ship has long sailed.

So, since I can't get over it, and I am finding myself getting more and more pissed off in "real life" over this, I have decided to quit the game. Please kill Makedonios immediately.



Thanks for the ride guys but at some point, this all started to really suck. :bow:

I do find comments like this to be in very poor taste. This is a game, not life. This happened over a month ago and it doesn't even remotely impact the current IC strength of the various armies. Whatever OOC punishment that Igno missed was more than made up for by the IC amendment that stripped him of his auto-Megas ability. Complaining about inequality in this situation is absurd, especially when the only penalty inflicted upon you was the loss of a single influence in an Emergency Session vote that wasn't even close.

If you want to quit, I won't stand in your way. If you still feel the way you do when I return from vacation, I will kill you off. If you want to be gone before then, just stop playing or find another way to die.

[_Tristan_]

Yes, PK... That seems rather rash...

I hope you will reconsider...

I'll agree with you that this whole business has not been dealt with as soundly as it could have been but the Order survived, Mak survived and you are actually not the worse off for Ignoramus' "cheating" (for want of a better word)...

Makedonios is one of the liveliest character in the game and its loss will be deeply felt...

I had a terrible feeling that this was where you were heading when you decided to step down in the Order feudal chain but I kept my fingers crossed and prayed I was wrong...

Seems I wasn't... I truly hope you will reconsider.

[Rowan]

Let's see...
PK stepping down and quitting.
Cecil unable to connect to .org.
BananaBob absent.

So the senior Order player present is... me. Oh ¤%#.

:help:

[Andres]

You know what, yelling in the Magnaura a few minutes ago made me realize something.

I still haven't gotten over the fact OOC that Ignoramus broke the rules multiple times without being punished. I thought I did, but it is still lingering there and affecting my IC interactions.

Combine that with the fact that I've been punished OOC for relatively minor things and I feel this game is ruined for me.

I know the whole "Ignoramus broke the rules" thing has been beaten to death OOC and I have no desire to open up that can of worms again. I personally think TC made a very bad call as GM when he let Ig slide three times but I fear that ship has long sailed.

So, since I can't get over it, and I am finding myself getting more and more pissed off in "real life" over this, I have decided to quit the game. Please kill Makedonios immediately.



Thanks for the ride guys but at some point, this all started to really suck. :bow:

Hi PK.

In all honesty, TinCow asked my opinion when the "Ignoramus-case" went crescendo.




I think you handled Ignoramus' infraction well. A few people interpreted Igno's statements as if he did it intentionally, but he denies it. The problem with an internet forum is that you cannot judge if somebody did something on purpose or not, and the elements at hand were rather ambiguous. By giving him a free pass, you gave him the benefit of the doubt. A second offense by the same player, should be severely punished imo (removal of the avatar). If one gets a slap on the wrist, he's supposed to continue play carefully and with the utmost diligence, so not being forgiving for a second offense is reasonable.

Repeated offenses by the same player or a player who is ignoring you, means you have a rotten apple in the basket...

With "one" offense I meant all infractions made by Igno during his Megas turn that were brought up at the time.

So if you feel a mistake has been made in this case, than I take part of the blame and I apologise :bow:

However, we are all human, even TinCow is.

Players put alot of time and effort in this game, but that's nothing compared to the amount of time and work the host puts into it.

Having hosted a couple of mafia games myself, I know it's hard work (and that's nothing compared to this monster!), but I also know that there's no greater pleasure than seeing the players enjoying themselves.

By quitting the game because TinCow made one error of judgement (which is debatable, I for one don't quite agree, it's not as easy, simple, clear and straightforward as it seems when you look from the perspective of a game host (as opposed to the perspective of a player)) is harsh and I believe you should reconsider your decision.

Try to look at this from TC's perspective and from the perspective of your fellow players.

Let the past be the past is easy for me, but I can understand that it's not as easy for everybody, but really, it's what you should do right now: let the past be the past.

And let us all be very careful not to get carried away by emotions too easily. I'm also human and I know myself. When I'm upset about something Org-related, I simply log off, cool down and wait for at least a couple of hours before coming back. If you feel anger is guiding your hands when typing, just quit, log off and come back tomorrow ~;)

:bow:

[TinCow]

Privateerkev is now banned from all Throne Room activities for 30 days. This is due to a post which I have removed.

[_Tristan_]

:drama2:

[Dafuge]

Hi guys. I'm writing this from an internet cafe. I have no internet access at all. I might be able to vote if you tell me the exct date it will be up but it will be a struggle as I'm going on holiday. So unfortunatly I have to leave this game.

[_Tristan_]

The Order is sinking.... fast...:titanic:

[GeneralHankerchief]

...and on that note, have a good trip, TC. :dizzy2:

In other news, the period for legislation proposal will close in a little over 10 hours.

-edit- KoP, voting will be open for two days starting 22:00 US Eastern time.

[Ferret]

Well that was a bit childish...

[Ituralde]

Well, I was afraid this was going to happen.

I hope PK will eventually rejoin the game. He has always been a great addition to it. That's all I'm gonna say on the topic.

[Warmaster Horus]

Holy... Out of all the players here who would "erupt", I didn't think PK would...
And on a slightly better note; welcome back Andres!

Edit: I entirely agree with Ituralde.

[Smowz]

Ignoramus,

Could you clear your inbox a little please :).

[Ignoramus]

I'm really sorry that PK felt that way about my mistakes. I'd thought it'd all been fixed up. If people still have concerns about whether they can trust me to follow the rules as Megas again, then I can pull out of this election. I'd to maintain again that my mistakes were purely accidental, not intentional.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Well.. leave for 10 hours and something like this happens! ~:dizzy2:

Hope that PK will return though.

[Ramses II CP]

Well, considering what's just gone on with PK I'll repeat myself for absolute clarity: I hold no grudges and have no problem with anyone here over those issues. My PM box is always open. I was quite annoyed at the time but IMHO the combination of the emergency session and the reworked rules have dealt with all my concerns. I did intend to write another (hopefully) amusing Isaeus post regarding the Caesar's run for Megas, but I just haven't had the time yet.

I don't speak for PK in any way, but I think it was a pretty big deal to him for his Megas term to be seen as fair, and I know he worked very hard to build and train troops evenly throughout the empire. I think the IC smears might have come through to him as OOC complaints which he felt were unjustified. I have no idea what nasty thing he posted (I spent a chunk of yesterday putting together a new computer) but I really hope we can all work past it and continue to have fun with LotR.

As a technical aside, how are we handling PK's absence from Mak? I know his last request was to kill the character off, but I believe he'll calm down and come back after serving his ban out.

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

As a technical aside, how are we handling PK's absence from Mak? I know his last request was to kill the character off, but I believe he'll calm down and come back after serving his ban out.

Before he left, TC said he'd give PK two weeks to think about it while he was gone. Obviously, the ban changes things.

I strongly recommend that the next Megas simply move Mak into a nice, protected city for a while, similar to what happened with Savvas while Andres was away (welcome back, BTW :2thumbsup:), with the reasoning that leaving him alive and sheltered doesn't do any harm if he doesn't return, but killing him off will definitely do some harm if PK rejoins us.

[_Tristan_]

Perhaps have him relinquinsh all his retinue (for the sake of the game) put him out of harm's way (eg, in Nicosia) and consider IC that he's gone monk or something of the kind... for the duration of the ban...

Thoughts ?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Perhaps have him relinquinsh all his retinue (for the sake of the game) put him out of harm's way (eg, in Nicosia) and consider IC that he's gone monk or something of the kind... for the duration of the ban...

Thoughts ?

Elegant solution. I don't think we want an actual IC explanation where he's gone since we don't have PK's approval, but all of the characters can get the general idea that Mak went off to "find himself" or something.

As for retinue, with the Order's current state of flux it's not as cut-and-dry as I would like. I'll check the game in a few hours and see what needs to be moved.

[TinCow]

As a technical aside, how are we handling PK's absence from Mak? I know his last request was to kill the character off, but I believe he'll calm down and come back after serving his ban out.

:egypt:

I am not removing PK from the game, just suspending him for essentially 1 term. Mak will be treated just as I stated before: kept alive unless PK absolutely still wants him dead. If Mak is still alive when the 30 days are up, PK is free to resume playing him as if nothing happened. I most certainly do not want PK to leave the game, as he is a great asset to LotR and the Throne Room. However, he intentionally crossed a line and forced my hand.

[Rowan]

I really hope Cecil will get back to the game as soon as possible. First, because Armatos owns a ton of more or less prime real estate that is in a limbo. And all of the land Order may acquire will also go to him... :wall:
Second, I reaaally don't want to manage Order affairs in the long term. I just don't have enough time or energy to sink into this game.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Phew.. three hours of writing is finally over.. :dizzy2:

[Smowz]

Good stuff there Ibn Khaldun.

I have to ask what an earth is happening to the order? Its turning into one ragtag band - reminds me of the Asteri in the old days...

How is your WotB game going? I may give it a whirl some time (though maybe after this upcoming term!!!).

[Ibn-Khaldun]

How is your WotB game going? I may give it a whirl some time (though maybe after this upcoming term!!!).

Just check the WotB forum here in the Throne Room. I have said it to others but I never imagined it to be so hard to be the GM.


I have to ask what an earth is happening to the order? Its turning into one ragtag band - reminds me of the Asteri in the old days...

I really don't know.. Theo have the Alcoholic trait and I like to play it to the max but I don't know about the others :laugh4:


Good stuff there Ibn Khaldun.

:bow:

[Rowan]

I have to ask what an earth is happening to the order? Its turning into one ragtag band - reminds me of the Asteri in the old days...

Let's see... BananaBob's been absent for a while because of no internet. PK stepped down and got banned. At exactly the same time Cecil, who should be taking control, started to have a mysterious problem where he couldn't access .org, but could otherwise connect to the net. He mentioned this in the private Order message board about two days before PK pulled the plug on it, so now we don't have any way to contact him. Knight_of_Palma is leaving the game, I can't recall why but if I had to guess I'd say it's connection problems. Ramses is playing a guy way off the deep end in the darkest Africa. Ibn-Khaldun just joined and his avatar doesn't have any land, so he's not a full Knight but compensates by being an alcoholic. And then there's me... :juggle2:

[Ituralde]

With the Charter Amendment about to pass and Election about to close I just wanted to aks how the official format for the Prioritized Units is. Seeing as I'm in a position to have to use them. :2thumbsup:

[Zim]

Ouch. Seems like a tough time for the Order. :sweatdrop:

[Cecil XIX]

:scared:

As usual, my timing is impeccable. It's too bad about PK, hopefully we can get him back. He brings a passion to these things that is unsurpassed and rarely equaled by the rest of us. Let it be known that Cecil XIX bears no ill will towards Ignoramus, since whatever problems ocurred have now been corrected so that they are less likely to pop up again. Basically what Ramses said.

I'm mostly caught up now, but I might not get around to writing the heavy duty PMs until Monday due to IRL concerns. In any case, I'm thankful my ascendence was accompanied with such drama. :clown:

[Ramses II CP]

LOL! Smowz I think you just declared yourself to be elected Emperor on the Senate floor. Might want to, err, restate that with the words Megas thrown in, eh? I can hear the daggers being sharpened even as we speak. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Smowz]

Damn my first blooper (of what I am sure there will be many) to appear during this next term. :oops:

Heh now that would be something years of the republic of Byzantine :)

[OverKnight]

Is the save open, or should we await word from our new Megas?

[Smowz]

Feel free to take it now OK.

Good luck with the battle, plenty of bodyguards to swipe out those dastardly Moors.

[TinCow]

With the Charter Amendment about to pass and Election about to close I just wanted to aks how the official format for the Prioritized Units is. Seeing as I'm in a position to have to use them. :2thumbsup:

We can play around with this a bit, but I think the best thing to do would be to post in your SOT post the number of PUs you get for your term (which is based on the rank you held at the time of the last normal session), then list what you want recruited and where. If you do not know exactly what you want recruited yet, you can change your SOT post later, but it would probably be a good idea to PM the Megas when you make that change as well, so that he's aware of it. The Megas can then simply respond by posting a list of the PU recruitment that he has fulfilled each turn in his report. Once he has fulfilled all PUs that have been posted, he can recruit whatever else he wants.

[Ituralde]

Yeah I tried out a first form of it in my SoT. Note that the retraining options are only requests by me that don't have to be followed, since the CA doesn't provide for prioritizing retrainings. So instead of retraining I should have put there that I want two missile units and one cav unit. But since I really want those units to be retrained, I thought I'd just put it up like this and hope the Megas knows what is meant by it.

So Pavlos would love for those units to be retrained but the Megas is not obliged to do it,if he say chooses to just recruit cheap missile units or cav units in said settlements.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. :beam:

[_Tristan_]

A quick question : With KoP seemingly out of the loop (correct me if I'm wrong) and with the implementation of the new rules, is there any obstacles to Methodios entering Stavros' stack under the walls of Gaza ?

From my reading of the rules, it would require KoP' s agreement but what if he's not there to give it ?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'd ask for permission from KoP's lord before you make any moves in this case.

[_Tristan_]

I'd ask for permission from KoP's lord before you make any moves in this case.

Already in the tubes...:2thumbsup:

But with the mess that is the Order right now, what shall I do if I have no answer ?

I'm beginning to miss the PK's days...~:mecry:

[GeneralHankerchief]

If you get no answer, then judging by our IC, IC, IC policy do whatever move you decide to do and see what consequences come out. :smash:

[_Tristan_]

I'm prepared to deal with whatever IC :smash: consequences may fall my way...

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't breaking any rule, by acting so...

[Smowz]

My understanding of the situation is that it would be a 'rule-break' as you say and certainly would put you at the hands of the 'Patriach- moderator', whilst the situation could be dealt with IC - I would have thought a rule break may well be something a GM or a sub GM would look at.

Can Methodios attack from a different angle and use KoP's stack as an AI force?

[_Tristan_]

My understanding of the situation is that it would be a 'rule-break' as you say and certainly would put you at the hands of the 'Patriach- moderator', whilst the situation could be dealt with IC - I would have thought a rule break may well be something a GM or a sub GM would look at.

Can Methodios attack from a different angle and use KoP's stack as an AI force?

The way I see it, KoP's stack is no different from a captain-led stack (his avatar is just an empty husk) so I do not see any true rule-breaking, as would be the case if KoP was active.
And I will follow our Patriarch-GM on the matter, that is deal with it IC... Unless I hear from the Order or KoP before, that is...

The point I am trying to make is that the game has been designed to reward active players so the question is whether we want to permit inactive players to gain settlements by beginning sieges then going away and let the game resolve the matter or encourage active players to take matters into their own hands.

As for attacking from a different angle, I could but would not do it (It would be too much of a bother)... That's the whole point behind the move...

I hope to make a wager and see if it is taken up by the AI.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The way I see it, Stavros is currently MIA and his army's leadership is up in the air. The proper way of going by this would be asking permission from a St. John higher-up. If permission is received, you're good to go. If permission is denied, you're not. If nothing is said, act as you will. I'm going to say your act was in good faith and not prosecute you if you do this, but whether the St. John people feel the same way is up to them.

However, if you/Methodias turn this into a hostile takeover of sorts, then we have a problem. Please don't make us go there.

[Smowz]

My concern was that KoP has not been out of action for that long really, some players have been given a fair amount of time to return.

However, with Stavros being involved in a siege it does rather set a poor precedent, we could deal with it IC as you say, Stavros after all did not vote on the important election that we had recently. GH has spoken, it looks like unless someone in the order pulls their finger out in the next couple of hours or so you may well get a chance to do something there.

[_Tristan_]

So unfortunatly I have to leave this game.

This is the basis behind my reasoning.


The proper way of going by this would be asking permission from a St. John higher-up.

Done already...


If permission is received, you're good to go. If permission is denied, you're not. If nothing is said, act as you will.

Fair enough...


However, if you/Methodias turn this into a hostile takeover of sorts, then we have a problem. Please don't make us go there.

If by hostile takover, you mean seizing of units, that is not my intention. If it means taking Gaza for myself/Methodios, well...:yes:

[Ramses II CP]

KoP was in contact with PK very recently (Right before the Senate session), although I don't think anyone else has his email address. He also downloaded the save and put more siege equipment in the pipe about 2 saves ago. IMHO it's unreasonable to declare him inactive unless he's inactive according to the actual rules.

Additionally you cannot involve his army in a battle even as reinforcements without his permission. Sorry Tristan, I don't think this is an area where there's IC wiggle room.

:egypt:

[_Tristan_]

I was only taking into account his latest (and last) post on the .Org to "declare" him inactive... (see my above post)

[Ramses II CP]

Oh I understand and sympathize, but let's take into account (For example) Andres' absence. PK was very careful to keep his avatar safely waiting for him in case he returned, and no one involved him or his army in a battle for the duration. If we're going by precedent that's got to be compelling, and note that KoP did not ask for his avatar to be killed. I think the last thing PK posted about him was that he expected KoP to take Gaza before moving on, but that was on the now defunct Order private board. If the garrison of Gaza sallies I would expect the battle to be autoresolved according to the rules, but until then I think Stavros has to be accorded the same respect other avatars have been when their players were absent.

:egypt:

[_Tristan_]

Difference in my opinion being that those avatars weren't impeding others' efforts to further their own ends...

They've always been stored away from harm's way and were totally innocuous, which is not the case concerning KoP's avatar...

[flyd]

Well, whatever the outcome of the active/inactive argument is, Tristan can still attack from a different direction, use the other army as reinforcements, and does not have to place them under AI control. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits this, if my cursory glance of the rules was comprehensive enough.

[Ramses II CP]

I was under the impression you had to have a player's permission to involve their avatar in a battle, but I don't know if that's a rule or just a casual convention.

As far as him thwarting your ambition, you have an IC means of resolution in the form of contacting his Lord and asking his permission to use the army. Cecil isn't as active as some of us, but he is around and definitely involved in the game.

:egypt:

[Smowz]

I am sorry it took so long with the save.

It really is quite a job, a thrilling enjoyable one, but a lengthy job all the same.

I have not been able to report on the movements of our enemy the Fatamids and the Seljuks as I would have liked, but still I guess the most important news is the failled Jihad - I hope you guys have enough time to analyse the save and make your movements.

[GeneralHankerchief]

KoP has declared himself inactive. However, there has not been sufficient time to move him out of harm's way due to the timing of the declaration (Senate session). All efforts should be made to remedy this situation.

In the meantime, I'm suggesting that Tristan wait an amount of time before making his move so that Cecil can get back to him. If he doesn't do so within a reasonable amount of time then I suggest that Tristan employ the strategy that flyd described:


Tristan can still attack from a different direction, use the other army as reinforcements, and does not have to place them under AI control. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits this, if my cursory glance of the rules was comprehensive enough.

With, of course, the provision that he is extremely careful with KoP's actual character in that battle.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Now.. I have only one small thing to say..
What is the point of updating my SOT if things are not done the way I want.


Miscellaneous: Avatar not to be moved without my permission. Grandmaster of the Order or the Megas can move him in anyway they want.

I want him to be moved to Antioch!

I would like to know why he wasn't moved.
It's niot that big of a deal but still..

[Ramses II CP]

I think if you have specific movement requests it's best to PM them (Or was this a 'first turn' warp due to character generation? GH might still be able to do that.), and to PM the Megas when you update your SoT.

:egypt:

[Smowz]

The honest answer is that I did not see your status 'order' underneath the piles of paper I already have stacked on my desk. I am sorry for that.

I could point out that your status and order thread is somewhat unclear, the megas and the grandmaster may move you avatar as they please but you want him moved to Antioch. So in essence which is it, may we move him as we please or must we move him toward Antioch?

Furthermore regarding the movement of avatars, I would prefer as Ramsas pointed out to be PMed with Avatar movements.

[OverKnight]

A suggestion:

On the top of my SOT entry, I've recorded in bold the date it has been last modified. This makes it easier for the Megas to scan the entries and see if anyone has updated there SOT and to take into account any changes.

[Rowan]

I might be somewhat inactive during this week. I've come down with a mild flu and my net connection at home is acting up. Hopefully I get both problems sorted out by weekend.

[Ituralde]

Now.. I have only one small thing to say..
What is the point of updating my SOT if things are not done the way I want.



I would like to know why he wasn't moved.
It's niot that big of a deal but still..

I'd also like to point out that moving your avatar is something the Megas can do, but doesn't have to. The SOT is more a list of things the Megas can't do, than a list of things he has to do.

[TinCow]

Yeah I tried out a first form of it in my SoT. Note that the retraining options are only requests by me that don't have to be followed, since the CA doesn't provide for prioritizing retrainings.

Yes it does:


(4) Prioritized Units – No money can be spent on any recruitment until all Prioritized Units have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Units, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Senators may specify the Type of Unit to be recruited and the Location for the recruitment. The Type of Unit is restricted to the broad classifications of infantry, foot missiles, and cavalry. Artillery and Mercenaries cannot be Prioritized. A unit may be retrained instead of recruited if the unit is already located in a settlement where it can be retrained in some fashion. Except for the Basileus, the Location is restricted to any settlement owned by the Senator requesting the Prioritization or any settlement owned by a vassal in his feudal chain. The Basileus may specify any settlement in the Empire as the Location.


But with the mess that is the Order right now, what shall I do if I have no answer ?

Do not seize the stack. You can only seize Captain-led stacks and stacks controlled by someone of lower rank than you in your same feudal chain. KoP is not in your feudal chain, so you cannot seize it. KoP's active/inactive status has nothing to do with it at all.


Well, whatever the outcome of the active/inactive argument is, Tristan can still attack from a different direction, use the other army as reinforcements, and does not have to place them under AI control. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits this, if my cursory glance of the rules was comprehensive enough.

Correct, just keep in mind that it's considered bad manners to intentionally get someone else killed during a battle. Intentionally running him into enemy spearmen until he dies will likely result in IC consequences.


I was under the impression you had to have a player's permission to involve their avatar in a battle, but I don't know if that's a rule or just a casual convention.

Not true at all, though rare. There are many situations in which a person would have no ability to avoid involving someone else's avatar in a battle, even if they were in a different stack. The rules only say that you can only fight a battle if your avatar is involved in it; it says nothing about not involving other people. If you don't want your avatar getting in battles, clear out of the war zone.


Now.. I have only one small thing to say..
What is the point of updating my SOT if things are not done the way I want.

To be clear, there is nothing in the rules that REQUIRES the Megas to move your avatar in a specific way. You can give the Megas permission to move you, but permission is a far cry from mandatory instructions. While this case seems to be just that Smowz didn't see your orders, it wouldn't make a difference even if it was intentional because it's not the Megas' job.

[_Tristan_]

Do not seize the stack. You can only seize Captain-led stacks and stacks controlled by someone of lower rank than you in your same feudal chain. KoP is not in your feudal chain, so you cannot seize it. KoP's active/inactive status has nothing to do with it at all.

just keep in mind that it's considered bad manners to intentionally get someone else killed during a battle. Intentionally running him into enemy spearmen until he dies will likely result in IC consequences.


My intent was never to seize the stack but to assume command in KoP's absence in order to resolve the siege situation...

The problem is that KoP' SOT gives power to move his avatar to PrivateerKev only with all that entails...

I've tried to get agreement from Cecil to do what follows but he remains incommunicado though he has read my PMs.

My plan was to have KoP's avatar move away from the siege with all of his infantry and keep his cavalry (with Methodios joining them) to try and provoke a sally from the AI... But that even seems impossible due to KoP's SOT... Even though this could prevent any unwanted avatar's death...
I would even release the remaining cavalry to KoP or Order command once recruitment had been made in Gaza or troops transfered from Egypt.

The statement I quoted earlier from KoP saying he was "leaving the game" (due to "Internet problems" and "holidays" with no duration stated...) creates a situation where the siege is almost completely blocked by an absentee player, with no option to resolve the situation through outside intervention (due to the way the SOT is written)...

And that sucks IMHO...

So my question is : would authorization from Cecil or anybody higher up than KoP in the Order feudal chain be sufficient to implement the plan described above or should I scrap it ?

[pevergreen]

I think TC said that you can simply go in, lay siege and hopefully they sally against you, causing the Order army to be reinforcements, which is legal. The dilema with moving him out of the way remains though.

[_Tristan_]

The thing being that if KoP stack remains in the vicinity there's no chance of a sally (or there would have been one already)... And I'm not too keen on going against the whole garrison with only my BG (one or two cav units would cut it just fine...)

It is frankly damning...:devil:

[Ituralde]

Yes it does:

Awesome! Disregard my random rambling then...

[AussieGiant]

Bloody hell that was a hell of a long weekend.

:egypt::egypt::egypt:

[TinCow]

So my question is : would authorization from Cecil or anybody higher up than KoP in the Order feudal chain be sufficient to implement the plan described above or should I scrap it ?

Under these circumstances, I think anyone above KoP in his feudal chain can authorize your plan. If you can't get any of them to agree to it, then you'll just have to deal with the unfortunate situation. Eventually the siege will end due to a time limit. If the AI sallies at this time, the battle will be autoresolved if no one other than KoP is involved in the battle. If he wins, the usual rules would apply and the current leader of the Order would get the province, but KoP's inactivity would make the whole city somewhat inactive. If you're dead-set on securing a castle settlement for your fledgling House, you could always negotiate with the Order to 'buy' it in exchange for your services or something else they might desire. You could also simply grab your garrisons and declare war, since they don't have much in the way of defenses in the area.

From what I'm reading, we've had an upswing in inactive/dropout players lately. I encourage everyone to recruit anyone they know on this forum or other forums who might enjoy this game. The more the merrier, and a group effort is likely to have better results than spammed advertising by me alone.

[AussieGiant]

Are the rules changed yet?

[GeneralHankerchief]

The CA passed, TC just needs to edit them into the main post. If you're looking for a copy of the CA, just go to OK's History thread and click on "legislation debated" for 1140.

[AussieGiant]

The CA passed, TC just needs to edit them into the main post. If you're looking for a copy of the CA, just go to OK's History thread and click on "legislation debated" for 1140.


Thanks GH.

[AussieGiant]

Only one post in the last 18 hours...this is bizzaro land!!

[_Tristan_]

The calm before the storm...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Only one post in the last 18 hours...this is bizzaro land!!

If it makes you feel better AG, I'm thinking about taking a character after TC comes back.

[AussieGiant]

If it makes you feel better AG, I'm thinking about taking a character after TC comes back.

Thank god you said that GH!!!!

That is excellent news.

[_Tristan_]

When I said the storm was coming...

[Smowz]

You've got me on tenderhooks GH :)

[AussieGiant]

When I said the storm was coming...

So spill your guts Tristan? What is GH up to? :balloon2:

[TinCow]

Are the rules changed yet?

Yeah, as GH said the changes have passed, but I haven't altered the rules yet. I get online once every 1 to 2 days for long enough to check email, read PMs, and read the OOC thread. I haven't even bothered trying to do anything else, so the rest will have to wait until I get home. Too much good food and wine to waste my time on you fellows! :laugh4:

In the meantime, to keep the mood somewhat proper, here's Ceasar's Curia:
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/IMG_3009.jpg

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm so jealous right now. That's the building where a game and a half's worth of deliberations have been held.

[AussieGiant]

By god TC!! That is impressive.

Get back to that wife of yours and have a great holiday!!

We'll still be here throwing our toy's out of the pram every now and then.

[flyd]

That's the building where a game and a half's worth of deliberations have been held.

You're not trying to imply that number is too low, are you? :beam:

[_Tristan_]

So spill your guts Tristan? What is GH up to? :balloon2:

I don't know but seeing how he masterfully played the Patriarch, I expect the greatest things from an avatar that will have a life in game...(and that is without taking into account his part in WotS and KotR)

[AussieGiant]

I don't know but seeing how he masterfully played the Patriarch, I expect the greatest things from an avatar that will have a life in game...(and that is without taking into account his part in WotS and KotR)

He's a devious fiend Tristian. We both know that. :beam:

[_Tristan_]

:yes:

EDIT : I think I may have some seer talent... Just wait and see what is coming our way in game, and you will see I was right to talk about a storm brewing...

[GeneralHankerchief]

:yes:

EDIT : I think I may have some seer talent... Just wait and see what is coming our way in game, and you will see I was right to talk about a storm brewing...

Crap, now I wish I wasn't at work. :hide:

Please be talking about something in-game and not me. I don't want high expectations! :laugh4:

[_Tristan_]

Please be talking about something in-game and not me. I don't want high expectations! :laugh4:

You'll all be soon enlightened by Smowz' report...

Now I'll be off to bed and not a witness when hell breaks loose...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, my next prayer is "please be able to be dealt with IC."

[_Tristan_]

IC all the way... Maybe too much so...

[Smowz]

Not sure what you expected to happen there Tristan....

the Gaze 'pinch' may play out interestingly...

Did you think it was time for a certain charactor to pass away? or an Imperial declaration?

Or am I completely missing something?

[_Tristan_]

Strange... because some "things" happened after I saved the game and let it play the AI turn...

Anyway... No matter...

The fact I saved the game must have reset the seed on the events...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Not the Mongols already?

[_Tristan_]

No... No Mongols...


Do not check the spoiler if you don't want to have a glimpse of an alternate history... or spoil your fun...


The game chose to kill Aleksios in my save and make Methodios Caesar !! Plus a Crusade was called on Venice by the Pope... But that will remain just that... An alternate history... Until next time...

[GeneralHankerchief]

A reminder to all that what's discussed in spoilers...

...stays in spoilers. :stare:

In other words, follow Tristan's example. :yes:

[Cecil XIX]

Not sure that counts as a spoiler, since it didn't actually happen.

GH is still right, of course. :inquisitive:

[OverKnight]

I wonder if our complaints about a sucky AI are often caused by the frequently interrupeted nature of game play. The AI seems to do better when it isn't reloaded 5 or so times a turn.

Commenting on Tristan's alternate history.

I am Aleksios Komnenos of the clan Komnenoi. I was born in 1048 in the city of Constantinople on the shores of the Sea of Mamarra. And I am immortal.

[_Tristan_]

It is certain that the unending save/reload mechanism sure doesn't help the AI by resetting the seed each and every time...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

It's so quiet in here recently.. :tumbleweed:

[_Tristan_]

Sort of an anti-climax compared to the pandemonium that could have erupted...

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm sure that when Ignoramus takes the throne this, and all of the IC threads will be exceptionally more lively.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Yeah.. I'm sure. He will be the first Basileus that will not die for old age.. Not that I would do something to Caesar Ioannis.. ~;)

[ULC]

So really all everyone is doing is watching the Basileus like vultures waiting for the man to keel over dead?

:clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

No... Not me! :clown:

[Cecil XIX]

Seems like the campaign AI's been a bit quicker than in KOTR. Especially Scotland, which I noticed-

Has conquered the western most Norwegian province, as well as whatever new province is west of Hamburg now. In fact, less then a dozen provinces are rebel now. That is faster than KOTR isn't it?

[Ituralde]

So really all everyone is doing is watching the Basileus like vultures waiting for the man to keel over dead?

:clown:

Well it seems to be in the spirit of the time! :2thumbsup:

[AussieGiant]

So really all everyone is doing is watching the Basileus like vultures waiting for the man to keel over dead?

:clown:


That's what I'm doing! :balloon2:

[ULC]

That's what I'm doing! :balloon2:

Shame on you! Talk about loyalty!

:clown:

[Smowz]

The immortal one is still alive....

[ULC]

Was wondering, how many people would mind it if the current 4.1 game balance was brought up to 6.1? I can try and make a mod for it if people want. I asked TC and he said it can be done, but as a CA. Still I will do it if people say yes to it, even if it might not pass. It'll be fun.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just so you guys know, I had absolutely nothing to do with that signature line. :clown:

I am absolutely, positively, 99 percent not guilty!

[GeneralHankerchief]

Was wondering, how many people would mind it if the current 4.1 game balance was brought up to 6.1? I can try and make a mod for it if people want. I asked TC and he said it can be done, but as a CA. Still I will do it if people say yes to it, even if it might not pass. It'll be fun.

We've tried updating the mod halfway through the game before (WotS comes to mind) and it did not end well. If everything's compatible, I'm all for it (I'm assuming 6.1 addresses the new Kingdoms patch?), but that's a big "if".

[Ignoramus]

Sorry for being so inactive during the past week guys. I've been really busy in preparing for a school camp which is in 2 weeks time. I should have more time now.

I'm still a little confused about the Private Units, though.

[ULC]

We've tried updating the mod halfway through the game before (WotS comes to mind) and it did not end well. If everything's compatible, I'm all for it (I'm assuming 6.1 addresses the new Kingdoms patch?), but that's a big "if".

It would be mostly unit stat changes from 4.1 to 6.1. The game play is supposedly more balanced and consistent. This should be save game compatible, I'll test it out to make sure.

[Ituralde]

Speaking of units? Does Ioannis get PUs from being Caesar? Since he is loyal to Pavlos he shouldn't get any from his feudal rank.

[Smowz]

I believe the Caeser has two PUs.


The rank of Caesar gains the following Power:
If this rank is held during a Normal Senate Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term. This Power is cumulative with the ability to Prioritize units under any other rank held by the Caesar.

The amount of PUs per Megas term is measured from the beginning of the term, this detail caught me out to begin with. Thus, if Aleksios dies during the term, the Caeser Ioannis was promoted he would not suddenly get the whopping 15 PUs' the Basilues is allowed.

[Ituralde]

My bad, you are completely correct!

[Smowz]

I am going to assume Igno has forgotten to return the save and made no changes.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I am going to assume Igno has forgotten to return the save and made no changes.

8 hours is definitely enough time to wait.

Ignoramus is on Aussie time and usually comes on right around the time when you take the save back, so if he comes on near the deadline I do request you grant him some leeway to make his move.

[_Tristan_]

So I'm able to take the save right now ?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yes.

[Smowz]

Sure will GH, thanks for the information.

I have been frustrated by this before... for me as Megas it has been difficult to make the move in less than two hours with the huge amount of double checking over absolutely everything (even then I have missed 2 or 3 things already). However for others things should be a little easier the only issue sometimes can be the uploading of the save i guess.

I was thinking of suggesting a time limit (or at least a suggested one) to TinCow as a CA to the rules, what do others think of this or is this being too formal. I know no-one has knowingly kept the save for longer than possible, but i remember one evening when KoP had intenet issues I was waiting all evening on a workday to make the move and ended up having to make a rather miffed OOC statement bemoaning my situation :embarassed:

anyway thoughts?

[AussieGiant]

I'm against adding it into the rules as a CA.

[_Tristan_]

I'm not for it either...

Btw : I've edited my Megas post with some requests for the Megas

And Ibn-Khaldun, you seem to have forgotten to have Stavros and his men embark on your ship... He's still near Gaza while the ship is already moving north...

You might want to take the save once more to check it...

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm against adding it into the rules as a CA.

I'm with AG on this. We don't need to formalize it; I think a consensus feeling is enough.

[_Tristan_]

Yes, most times you don't need more than 2 hours to play a battle. Three hours should be the max... Even for the worst siege situations...

[Cecil XIX]

Don't worry about Stavros, everthing is going according to plan.

Speaking of whom, what is the Order to do about him and Nathanail? Legally speaking, they have to remain exactly where they are unless KoP or BananaBob change their SOT. Can we make an exception that players who have left the game can have their SOTs ignored?

[_Tristan_]

Players that have left the game should have their avatars killed off...

I find notably gamey the fact Ichigo's avatar is sitting in Constantinople since the beginning of the game, to be used in the defense of the city...

Same could be said of how PK used Nathanail during the siege of Antioch.

Exceptions could be made when players are away for a definite period of time but players going away more than two terms should have their avatars done with...

EDIT : And this doesn't even take into account the fact that they "inflate" the feudal chain artificially...

[Ramses II CP]

I think TC suggested that KoP's avatar should be 'stashed' somewhere safe by the GM at the earliest convenience since he officially retired from the game, though that logically should be done in such a way as to avoid IC consequences for his army. I dunno about Bob. Did he vote in the last election? He should've been declared inactive and killed off if not.

Personally I don't care where you park your avatar if you're voting and being involved in the game, but Bob has been gone a long, long time really. KoP was here very recently and, since he was in contact with PK not too long ago I think it's possible he'll make a comeback if his schedule allows so I hope his avatar isn't killed off.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

Ahh, one thing I forgot to mention; Dongola and Sofia have auto-manage turned on. Probably best to turn that off so the AI doesn't go building/recruiting random stuff there.

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'll try to address this later tonight when/if I get on.

[Smowz]

Regarding the automanage thing, I noticed this when I loaded up the save earlier to take some notes, It was not something I did I don't think. But I guess i should check before I save and pass it on each time.

I guess you guys are right about the length of time thing - it is pretty clear in TC's rules that it is essential to be as quick as you can be when dealing with the save which is good enough as you say.

With regards to the Avatars, I am in total agreement to what has been said before there are a number of inactive Avatars around who really should be deleted. It has already been discussed how strong our BGs' are in battle, but they also can contribute to aiding RR.

Anastasios (Lemongates avatar) in Belgrade for example. I guess we really should have mentioned it before.

The Stavros (Knights of Palma) situation could be awkward given that he is a Land owning vassel, I am not sure how long TC gave Savvas (Andres) to return. Probably best to wait for TC to return regarding that.

[OverKnight]

Please note than when I destroyed the first Jihad army, I only took along Vringas and his men. When I sallied against the second Jihad, I guess I could have left inactive avatars behind in the city square, but it didn't occur to me, they were there so I used them. It wasn't my intent to be "gamey".

Barring a civil war, I don't think the capital will be threatened again, unless another Jihad is called. The question then becomes if we don't store inactives in the capital, where do we put them? Killing unused avatars is at the discretion of the GM.

I've noticed a couple times that auto-manage can sometimes turn on by itself when the save is transferred from system to system. Whenever someone takes the save, glance around and see if the cog symbol is on any of the settlements and let the Megas know. No settlements should be auto-managed as that is the job of the Megas (per the directions of the owners).

[Smowz]

He died.

[ULC]

He died.

ZOMGYHTBKTINPW! :clown:

Anyway, is there any form of consensus as to whether or not a game balance update for units stats is wanted?

[Cecil XIX]

Well let's start the insanity.

And yes, I'm all for more unit balancing.

[AussieGiant]

Just to expand on my point.

Snowz, you've handled the Igno issue with the save perfectly. Given this all Megas holding players should simply follow suit.

Avatar's hanging around for more than two terms should be seriously considered and redundant and removed.

Did Al die?

If he did, then now things get interesting.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Regarding inactive avatars: TC gets back in a week. As the decision to kill off an avatar is a rather permanent one, I think we can all put up with the minor annoyance for a little bit longer.

Regarding the Stainless Steel update: I think the best course of action here would be to propose it as an OOC Charter Amendment at the next Magnaura session, discussing it here in the meantime. FWIW, if it's compatible, I'm for it.

[pevergreen]

Would it require having the 6.1 mod, or just fiddling with unit stats?

[Northnovas]

Also mod upgrade 6.1 would mean Kingdoms already installed? I think there are a few of us who have not purchased/installed Kingdoms. :book:

[GeneralHankerchief]

If 6.1 requires Kingdoms, that changes things. We've already been bleeding players.

[OverKnight]

Well it was a good run. I guess I'll be taking a recruitable general.

I did file a will with TC, but he's on vacation so I'm going to forward a copy to GH.

Guess I need to take a crash course on House politics and rules. :laugh4:

[ULC]

Would it require having the 6.1 mod, or just fiddling with unit stats?


Also mod upgrade 6.1 would mean Kingdoms already installed? I think there are a few of us who have not purchased/installed Kingdoms. :book:


If 6.1 requires Kingdoms, that changes things. We've already been bleeding players.

No, it will only require fiddling at most with units stats and animations, as well as some abilities (such as the hold BI shield wall - yes it is present in vanilla, and it does increase the effectiveness of your spearmen considerably, they can now reliably fight cavalry :laugh4:). Nothing else will be carried over from SS6, unless people want me to bring over the flags standards and colors (meaning no purple on the battlemap, and a better faction flag) I am not sure if that though is save compatible. Everything else to my knowledge is.

[Ramses II CP]

<-- Doing my part to stir IC matters up.

:egypt:

[ULC]

<-- Doing my part to stir IC matters up.

:egypt:

Yes, we need things stirred up with a madman on the throne and a prince who happens to be the second most controversial man besides Hypatios :dizzy2:

:clown:

I also demand that those in the Veteran's Haven begin posting :brood: :clown:

[pevergreen]

If it doesnt require 6.1, sure. IIRC 6.1 is a huge download.

[ULC]

*ahem* Before I get to far, does anyone want me to bring over the units for Byzantium from SS6?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Just to be clear, we are sticking with 4.1 and what we have now until the next Magnaura session. If there's going to be any downloading/messing with the mod, I want it to be done when:

a) There's a vote.
b) We do it at a point where everyone will DL it and use it from the same savegame.

[ULC]

Just to be clear, we are sticking with 4.1 and what we have now until the next Magnaura session. If there's going to be any downloading/messing with the mod, I want it to be done when:

a) There's a vote.
b) We do it at a point where everyone will DL it and use it from the same savegame.

Indeed, I was making no assertion what I was doing would be immediately implemented. I am only asking now so I can actually have it ready when the time comes.

[Smowz]

Just to let players know here.

To give the players time to roleplay various stories leading from OK's avatar death (and hopefully give OK a chance to pick a new avatar), I have extended the time when I will be taking back the save.

I am quite busy on Tuesday and so I will take it back on Wednesday afternoon my time. I am sorry for the delay there.

YLC: I would be for the changes.

[ULC]

It's okay, I need more time to write my own stories ^^

[OverKnight]

Actually I can't pick a new avatar until next turn once a new RGB has spawned. I don't think there are any unclaimed ones floating around.

Still, I wouldn't mind the time to come up with a suitable finale for Aleksios if I can think of one. I'm a bit stumped at the moment. Perhaps he will be assasinated by the Brotherhood of Secret Muslims. :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Actually I can't pick a new avatar until next turn once a new RGB has spawned. I don't think there are any unclaimed ones floating around.

Still, I wouldn't mind the time to come up with a suitable finale for Aleksios if I can think of one. I'm a bit stumped at the moment. Perhaps he will be assasinated by the Brotherhood of Secret Muslims. :laugh4:

Or by the Caesar himself! :clown:

[Ramses II CP]

Oh come on, we all know the Caesar is the Brotherhood! Without him and his 'guess who I was talking to while I rubbed my tattoo,' games the meetings wouldn't be any fun at all.

I hope no one thinks I was trying to get Vissa out of trouble for his letters, after all he basically gave his full authority for a nearly seditious member of the Imperial staff to speak in his name. The IC consequences should be, well, exactly what I expect Igno will make them into. He will not, of course, attend the coronation.

I have a bit mostly written for V on the return of Rafi which is growing long in the tooth on the time scale, but I sort of need another chunk to fall into place for it to make sense. Hopefully it'll work out and sound okay in the end.

:egypt:

[AussieGiant]

Well after that last little outburst, perhaps Ap can ask for a trial against Vissa for treason? :beam:

[Ramses II CP]

I'm thinking exile is pretty likely too, but if you want V for trial you're going to have to come and get him. :yes:

:egypt:

[_Tristan_]

EXile is not for now yet... Ioannis has not enough authority yet...

[AussieGiant]

Screw a exile.

Round up a half stack and go and get him! :balloon2:

[_Tristan_]

Over my dead body...

Go Vissa, Go !!!

[Ramses II CP]

Very interesting that the Emperor will not hold the capital. I wonder how that's going to work out. :inquisitive:

I'll see you at Thebes then AG! You know, we never did get to settle that Fritz-Arnold duel. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Ignoramus]

Sorry about that save. I uploaded the save but forgot to post it. But it doesn't matter.

Also, I'm pretty sure OK can't give Constantinople to his next avatar, seeing that it's the capital.

[GeneralHankerchief]

There is something that I trimmed out of the will that relates to the whole Constantinople situation. I'll let OK address it if he wants before we go further.

[OverKnight]

There's nothing in the rules that forbids me from passing on the capital to my next avatar. I admit, it's unorthodox and Ioannis would be fully within his rights to be angry.

Once I have an avatar up and running, I'll attempt an IC explanation of what happened.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Plus the fact that TC mentioned nothing either forbidding or questioning the transfer (OK forwarded me a small exchange).

IC, IC, IC gentlemen. :yes:

[Ignoramus]

I can, however, redistribute the Privy Seal and the Lord High Chancellor ancillaries.

[OverKnight]

IC, IC, IC gentlemen. :yes:

Of course, that is once I have a character again. :laugh4:

[Ignoramus]

It will be taken IC. Ioannis always thought his father was cool towards him. However, the Privy Council will soon sort this mess out.

I must say that I didn't expect this to happen.

Edit: And I'll be having your CoA, thanks OK.

[AussieGiant]

This is an APB for Ituralde!!

"Paging Ituralde, price check at desk 3 please. Paging Ituralde."

[Ituralde]

Yeah sorry for being absent. It was a busy weekend, I'll get right to it though! :2thumbsup:

Edit: Ignoramus... well guess what? :beam:
Please clear your inbox.

[AussieGiant]

Yeah sorry for being absent. It was a busy weekend, I'll get right to it though! :2thumbsup:

Edit: Ignoramus... well guess what? :beam:
Please clear your inbox.


No problem. I was just getting a little anxious given the work we need to get out.

Igno!! Dude, can't you just blow away your entire Inbox? :balloon2:

[Ignoramus]

Sorry guys. I'll go on a rampage and wipe 100 messages or so.

Edit: I'm a terribly bad hoarder of things, and it seems to spill over into the realm of PM's.

[Ramses II CP]

As I asked in the Megas thread; Can I take ships that are still at the docks of another House? I didn't really see a distinction between them at the docks and just sitting on the shore until I was in the save doing my move. I read over the rule changes and I didn't see it explicitly covered.

I've got a long day but I may have a chance to check in on my phone a few times over the next few hours. Feel absolutely free to proceed from GH's save if this isn't settled quickly as there is plenty of time for me to make my moves, either way, later.

:egypt:

[Ituralde]

4.3 – Naval Fleets: All Senators own all fleets that begin a turn in the port of a settlement they own, [...]

So the fleet mentioned is owned by the owner of Thebes and under his sole command.

[_Tristan_]

I rather think it must the Cairo fleet and thus the propriety of House Ilios Korakas.

And if that is the case I'd like to see the fleet returned... There is currently a large Egyptian fleet in the Red Sea and the Cairo fleet is no match for it...

[flyd]

Fleets:

In Port: Owned by the owner of the region the port is in.
Everywhere else: Owened by who's on it, or the Megas if the fleet is avatar-empty.

The shore line isn't a special region, it might as well be the open sea.

[_Tristan_]

Except for the fact that said fleet was in fact in Cairo's port (which I agree is on the shoreline... but then everything is if it's to be on the sea...)

[Ramses II CP]

Yeah, I was in a hurry this morning and I figured there was something I was missing. Hope I didn't slow anyone down!

I'll snag the save again sometime later tonight to move V. Please use GH's save (In fact I'm going to edit my post and remove the link to my own).

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

As an FYI, the coronation will be completed later today US time.

[Smowz]

AussieGiant,

Thanks for the story there. Believe me I have been checking the thread every couple of hours or so for news of the coronation - i do believe something is about to hit the fan!!!

Look forward to waking up tomorrow with news of the coronation.

[OverKnight]

Good work onthe coronation everyone. :2thumbsup:

Nice touch at the end GH, foreshadowing or merely a bit of drama?

[Smowz]

You'll forgive my impatience, but did we really need another bunch of days for an emergency senatorial session....

I guess it is the new Basileus perogative. I just feel already enough time has been given for the coronation - its not like I have been zooming through the turns.

Anyway wonderful coronation story!!!

[AussieGiant]

AussieGiant,

Thanks for the story there. Believe me I have been checking the thread every couple of hours or so for news of the coronation - i do believe something is about to hit the fan!!!

Look forward to waking up tomorrow with news of the coronation.


No problem there Smowz. We had to get the pace up a little.

Well done GH. Nice dramatic touch there at the end.

[Smowz]

I will repeat again I find the wasted time for this emergency session unnecessary.

This swearing alliegience stuff could have waited until the end of the term.

Its not like half the senators who swear alliegience will mean what they say.

[AussieGiant]

Well it's too late now.

Given the background it's a move I would have certain considered making :beam:

I know it upsets the rythm you're in Smowz, but hey, it's certainly not boring.

And by the way...can you build something in Sofia and Bucharest? :egypt:

[OverKnight]

The annoying thing is I don't get a new avatar until the session is over.

I guess I could play Senator X and edit in the name afterwards, but I'd like to know traits and such before making too much of a commitment.

[_Tristan_]

One way to do this would be to allow Smowz to do anything he needs with the turn and end it and consider the Emergency Session to be on the next turn. Thus, OK's new avatar would be recruited.

Thoughts ?

[AussieGiant]

Yeah that seems like a good idea.

[Ignoramus]

That's fine by me. The main reason was so that we'd be able to get all parties to swear allegiance before any major issues popped up.

[rossahh]

But who says we HAVE to swear to the new Basileus?

[AussieGiant]

An Emergency session has been called.

The new Basileus has asked.

Choose your option(s).

[ULC]

An Emergency session has been called.

The new Basileus has asked.

Choose your option(s).

Suuch wonderful options they too!

Swear to a paranoid madman who now controls the entire empire, or simply ignore him and suffer terrible ills either way!

This will be a most interesting reign...

:clown:

[AussieGiant]

Suuch wonderful options they too!

Swear to a paranoid madman who now controls the entire empire, or simply ignore him and suffer terrible ills either way!

This will be a most interesting reign...

:clown:

Interesting summary...you still have to choose. :balloon2:

I love feudalism.

[Smowz]

One way to do this would be to allow Smowz to do anything he needs with the turn and end it and consider the Emergency Session to be on the next turn. Thus, OK's new avatar would be recruited.

Thoughts ?

This works well with me also, I will do the necessary things this evening.

I was in a little of a black mood this morning for some reason, probably due to the bad weather in UK at the moment.

However having thought of it a little bit, it IS after all within the Basileus' right to call one emergency session a term - I am disgruntled I guess because I am enjoying the power of being Megas and it is quite a fun experience playing about and keeping track of everything.

[ULC]

Interesting summary...you still have to choose. :balloon2:

I love feudalism.

Choosing is relegated to my feudal lord, and since Methodios already tentatively swore, that included me, no matter my opinion. :mellow:

So not only do I not have to choose, you'll never know what I chose :evilgrin:

[_Tristan_]

Hey, people, I need some info about the UK...

In two weeks time, I'll be going on a work trip to the UK for 3-weeks both in Maidstone, Kent and London.

I plan to take my laptop with me (to get online with the wife and kids... and check the forums :devil:) but I'll need some free Wi-Fi access.

Some quick search allowed me to find that most McDonald's offer free wi-fi access and that the City of London Corp. offers free internet access through The Cloud for one month (more than ample time for me), though I'll reside a bit too far away.

Could anyone point me to some nice and easy solution ?

My laptop is M2TW-capable and being able to check the forums would allow me to keep on playing while away from home so all help is welcome...

These times seem to be promising and I'll hate to be away and miss all the fun...

[AussieGiant]

Choosing is relegated to my feudal lord, and since Methodios already tentatively swore, that included me, no matter my opinion. :mellow:

So not only do I not have to choose, you'll never know what I chose :evilgrin:

See, I still love feudalism.

[OverKnight]

Heh, watching the sniping in the Magnaura is fun when I'm not duty bound to do something about it.

Fight! Fight! Fight! :laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I think that advancing to the next turn in this case is acceptable, since Ignoramus has approved it and considering I already requested an extension to get the stories down. Just make sure we don't advance any further.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I wonder..

What will happen if someone who is on a fleet will declare a Civil War but will never set a foot on a land ever again? There is no way to have a PvP battles then, right?

[flyd]

You could get a fleet sent after you. Then we'd have a naval battle.

[pevergreen]

You could swear in an odd way, I swore to serve the Crown, not the person wearing it.

[Ignoramus]

But the person wearing the crown takes note of it.

[OverKnight]

I'll take this guy:

https://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/douglaslain/tiverios.jpg

Feel free to use his first name. :laugh4:

GH, if you wish, I can go ahead and take care of the assigning the retinue if you want, up to you.

[GeneralHankerchief]

OK,

You're clear to go. Mind posting screenshots of the other two avatars as well?

Normally I wouldn't ask but my wireless connection has been belly-up for the past day, so I can't really do much.

-edit- Is that the same pic as Otto?

[OverKnight]

GH, yup it's the same pic as Otto. One of the reasons I took him despite the horrendous last name.

Andronikos has an open adoption option on this guy:
https://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/douglaslain/amm.jpg

Here are the the two remaining RGBs:
https://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/douglaslain/Modestos.jpg
https://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/douglaslain/klim.jpg

I'll add the retinue to Tiv in a few minutes.

[GeneralHankerchief]

All right, I think I'll take Mandorf Klimis Dokeianos for my first LotR avatar. :yes:

[OverKnight]

You want me to drown Modestos? :evilgrin:

Edit: Were going old school with the pics.

[OverKnight]

It's a bit odd, when I use give_ancillary "Tiverios Indikoplefstis" taticius I don't get an error message, but he isn't added to the character.

I'm guessing that since Tac is a non-transferable unique character, he might not be able to be reinserted into the game with console commands.

I wish I knew that before I wrote my will. :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think you have to put " Around the ancillary also..
Like this give_ancillary "Tiverios Indikoplefstis" "taticius"
At least that's how I have always done it.

[Ituralde]

Better mention it early, but my whole family will be visiting over this long weekend we have in Germany, so don't expect anything from me from Friday to Sunday!

Have fun! :2thumbsup:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I think what IK said about the quotes is correct. That's what I did when I executed the rest of Al's will.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hey OK, congrats on the Senior Membership. Welcome to the club. :smoking:

This goes for anyone else I missed... :embarassed:

[OverKnight]

I did some testing. I can add ancillaries to Tiv. I can even add a unique character, I used roger_bacon. However when I use the same exact format for taticius, even though I don't get an error message, he doesn't appear in Tiv's retinue.

This leads me to believe that unique characters, once spawned can't be respawned after their "death". That, or it might only be taticius since he doesn't have any triggers, unlike the other unique characters.

I couldn't have passed tac on to anyone even when Al was alive, he's non-transferable.

I guess we could mod a solution, but that seems overkill.

Edit: Huh, Senior Member? When did that happen? Cool. . .do I have to learn a secret hand shake?

[GeneralHankerchief]

It's probably best if poor Tacitus ended his LotR appearance now, otherwise he would have been forced to live forever, educating generation after generation. Our avatars live unnaturally long lives anyway, imagine how immortal the retinue would be? :hide:

No secret handshake, but you do get access to the .Org's ultra-top-secret pr0n forum, featuring only the best ladies from all eight continents.

[AussieGiant]

No secret handshake, but you do get access to the .Org's ultra-top-secret pr0n forum, featuring only the best ladies from all eight continents.

NO ONE told me about that GH!!??

And yes there is a secret handshake...but I should not have said that.:dizzy2:

Well done OK. I actually noticed that a few days ago and thought it was odd. Seems someone was thinking the same.

[TinCow]

I'm back now, but am too tired from the travel to get stuck into this right now. My immediate priority is eating some good sushi (love the Italian food... but 2 weeks without asian is too long) followed by sleep. I will start getting back up to speed tomorrow (taking the day off) and will resume full duties this weekend.

[ULC]

I'm back now, but am too tired from the travel to get stuck into this right now. My immediate priority is eating some good sushi (love the Italian food... but 2 weeks without asian is too long) followed by sleep. I will start getting back up to speed tomorrow (taking the day off) and will resume full duties this weekend.

Yay! TC is back! :bow:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm back now, but am too tired from the travel to get stuck into this right now. My immediate priority is eating some good sushi (love the Italian food... but 2 weeks without asian is too long) followed by sleep. I will start getting back up to speed tomorrow (taking the day off) and will resume full duties this weekend.

Perfect timing. I didn't want to play the Protoasecretes and Klimis at the same time.

Hope you enjoyed Italy, you lucky dog you. :toff:

[ULC]

Why do I have this weird impression things are about to heat up in Magnaura?

:clown:

[rossahh]

What, just because we have a paranoid and power-hungry Basileus in control now?

I can't wait to see the Basileus stomp on someone (so long as it's not me). It's time to get those banishment powers going.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I'm gone for some hours and I'm banned from Magnaura! :beam:

It's good that I wasn't away more than that. Who knows what Basileus might have done then! :laugh4:

[Ignoramus]

Just a reminder that this is all IC. This no indictment on you personally Ibn-Khaldun, and I hope you don't mind sitting this one out.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Lol.. Of course I understand that it is IC :laugh4:

You just wait for my IC counter actions as well! :evil:

[_Tristan_]

Seeing the Magnaura lately, I have the feeling we're having the Illuminati back in business but out in the open or almost...

[deguerra]

ok guys. i am in no way up to date, but back and will tackle the threads soon. :2thumbsup:

[flyd]

So, when does this session end? I don't think that was ever declared.

[OverKnight]

Right about now by my estimation.

Igno called (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2026769#post2026769) the Emergency Session on October 1st at 0147 GMT (it was actually 9/30 at 2047 for me). It's been three days and an hour. The usual length of a Session is around that amount.

Of course the Session was never gaveled in by GH (as acting GM) so that casts some doubt on the issue.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Right about now by my estimation.

Igno called (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2026769#post2026769) the Emergency Session on October 1st at 0147 GMT (it was actually 9/30 at 2047 for me). It's been three days and an hour. The usual length of a Session is around that amount.

Of course the Session was never gaveled in by GH (as acting GM) so that casts some doubt on the issue.

I'm involved in a heated game of Axis & Allies right now. In a few hours, assuming TC doesn't act, I'll make my final move as GM and call an end/do the vote.

[ULC]

Is no one interested in the Veterans Haven? :inquisitive:.
If not, then can I ask it be deleted?

[_Tristan_]

Not so much not interested as lacking time to post in it... :stupid:

[ULC]

Not so much not interested as lacking time to post in it... :stupid:

No need to be sorry, just no one else besides those I initially invited for IC reasons has come forward. Feels weird having it up. :juggle2:

[Ignoramus]

Solved that problem.

[ULC]

Solved that problem.

So long as you post, fine by me :wink:. Your In BTW. So grace us with your presence :bow:

[AussieGiant]

It's also a time thing for me YLC.

My apologies.

[Cecil XIX]

Rules clarification: For Emergency Sessions, does influence remain the same as it was in the previous normal session, save for the Megas, or is it recalculated from the last used save or something?

Also, Aleksios's long life (He was 68 wasn't he?) reminded me of a feature I know of from Deus lo Vult, a mod very similar to SS that also used BB&B. It changed the age mechanics so that avatars could die from natural causes at any age from 30 to 100. I wonder if we'll see any other avatars die much sooner or much later than 61.

[TinCow]

Rules clarification: For Emergency Sessions, does influence remain the same as it was in the previous normal session, save for the Megas, or is it recalculated from the last used save or something?

It is recalculated. Use the most recent save before the session was called.

[TinCow]

Ok, I've done the basic obvious updates: moving Aleksios to the Mausoleum, adding the new titles for Basileus and Ceasar, and adding the new avatars for OK and GH. However, I'm sure there's been a few changes in provinces and oaths lately and it would be a lot faster if people could summarize this for me instead of me having to search all the threads for whatever has changed. Please post if you're aware of something that has changed that I need to update.

[Cecil XIX]

Well, GH and OK's avatars swore allegiance to Apionnas.

[Northnovas]

Also, Aleksios's long life (He was 68 wasn't he?) reminded me of a feature I know of from Deus lo Vult, a mod very similar to SS that also used BB&B. It changed the age mechanics so that avatars could die from natural causes at any age from 30 to 100. I wonder if we'll see any other avatars die much sooner or much later than 61.

While playing this mod the oldest character age I noticed was 69.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The only thing I remember, offhand, was pevergreen's avatar of Michail breaking his Komnenodoukai oath and becoming an unaligned Senator. His vassal, Hypatios, reswore with the Komnenodoukai. (I forget exactly who, will check that out in a minute.)

-edit- Hypatios, as Elite Ferret, is now sworn to Ioannis Kantakouzinos. Michail broke his oath to Lisas Attelaiatas and, IIRC, did not swear another one.

All splits were amiable.

[Smowz]

I would like to raise a point on the Charter Amendments that have been proposed by Ignoramus.

They both seem very IC types of proposals that would usually be termed as Edicts. Edicts that seem at the present moment in time to be desperately out of favour, presumably because players are rather sick of opening up an edict for debate, gather votes for it only for players to wantonly break them.

Plus of course Edicts are only in place for the duration of a term as I understand it, making them less powerful than they were before (as if they had any true power anyway given that if the Megas and the Basileus disagree with them they might as well have failed the vote). The problem that has been highlighted before that there have been no punishments listed for the breaking of such edicts and players have lacked the power or the strength (or perhaps the courage) to stand up for their edicts.

However, I feel that the Charter, rather exists as a rule set of sorts, to help the playability of the the actual game of LotR (or indeed any other game that may spring from it, such as WotB etc.). Anyone who breaks these rules are to be punished at the discretion of the moderator rather than in game consequences. This creates as uncomfortable situation as far as the second Charter Amendment that Igno has proposed - a player becomes a head of house and then forgets/refuses to make an oath to the basilues whoever that may be at the time. What would happen then? Well seemingly that player would be punished by Tincow (unfairly imo).

I hope there is a point in there somewhere, I wonder if that is going to be the future of the senatorial sessions? Whereby we get some interesting IC debates, but ultimately we get endless tinkering (in this case pointless and somewhat cosmetic) with the charter.

[rossahh]

You've got a point there, Smowz. I especially agree with your point that the Charter is more a set of rules on how to play LotR.

[AussieGiant]

As far as I understand things, CA's are IC longer term standing points that players should adhere to. They can be broken just like Edicts.

The rules are entirely separate from CA's.

CA's are used to change the rules because they require 2/3 majority to pass and are therefore a far stronger mandate than Edicts. This is regarded as a necessary level of agreement in order to change the rules.

I actually don't know where the find the currently active CA's and Edicts which is a little strange.

TC will be able to outline things far better than me, but both rossahh and Smowz statements are not entirely accurate in my view.

It is also very important that everyone understands these things as they are the foundation for common comprehension levels.

[Smowz]

As far as I understand things, CA's are IC longer term standing points that players should adhere to. They can be broken just like Edicts.

The rules are entirely separate from CA's.

CA's are used to change the rules because they require 2/3 majority to pass and are therefore a far stronger mandate than Edicts. This is regarded as a necessary level of agreement in order to change the rules.

I actually don't know where the find the currently active CA's and Edicts which is a little strange.

It is also very important that everyone understands these things as they are the foundation for common comprehension levels.

Perhaps then I need some clarification on what a Charter amendment is. My impression was that a Charter amendment was to be a rule change or addition to the rule set. That once passed all players were to adhere to or face the consequences as decided by the moderator of this game.

I find your statement here contradictory - you say the rules are enterely seperate from CA's but then go on to say that they are in fact used to change the rules.

All the charter amendments seems to be placed in the Game rules by TC (who does a really super job btw). So therefore surely all the Charter amendments are going to be subject to the following:


The following rules are binding on all players of LotR, and they will be enforced.

1. Do not violate the LotR Game Rules. Edicts may be freely violated, but Rules may not.


So again, we have a situation whereby if the second CA passes - a house leader is required by the rules to swear alliegience to the Basilues or face punishment by the moderator.

I would like to think that they are meant as you said AussieGiant at the beginning that this particular CA is a IC longer term standpoint like an edict that lasts longer(say for Ioannis Komenus' reign). In which case this needs to be clarified.

[AussieGiant]

I find your statement here contradictory - you say the rules are enterely seperate from CA's but then go on to say that they are in fact used to change the rules.

This is not a contradiction.

The rules are the rules, Charter Amendments are the mechanism by which the rules are changed once the game has started.

The rules were created at the start of the game and there were no CA's required.

If you were to check out CA's from KotR you would find most of them being IC issues and very few of them involving changes to the rules.

An Edict requires over half the influence in the vote. It lasts for the term of the Megas.

A CA requires 2/3 of the influence in the vote and stays in affect until it is counter by another CA or its time limit expires.

CA's are far more powerful.

I think the issue here is that for the most part all CA's in this game have involved rule changes and not "Normal" IC laws, which I am familiar with in playing the previous game.

TC's description of Edicts and Amendments is clear, however the example he gives for Amendments relates to rules only. I believe this is not accurate.

-EDIT-

Check any of the Diet sessions from KotR. CA's are in all the time and they rarely had anything to do with the rules...there were 18 Diet sessions in the end I believe.

CA's were usually very important pieces of IC legislation that had wide ranging impact on the game but IC for the most part. TC has used CA's as the exclusive method of changing the rules once the game has began as it is the best way to do so.

Igno has used CA's in this instance to try and enforce this consistently and if passed would be adhered to IC or players would face IC reprisals. There will be very few instances of GM intervention given then new rule set that passed at the last Magnaura session.

[_Tristan_]

I do not quit agree with you AG on the CA thing.

From my point of view, CA are almost strictly OOC which is demonstrated by the way they are incorporated into the rules.

Once they are rules, they are no breaking them IC because sanctions should be OOC. This is made perfectly clear in the quote of Tincow by Smowz, which can be summarized so "Break any Edict but do not break the Rules (and the CA that become part of said rules once voted).

Otherwise if we simply had to adhere to CA or face IC complications, Methodios' life would have been much easier and we would be at war with almost half of Christendom but for CA 2.1.

I think we are missing one type of legislation in the game some sort of self-reconducting or long-lasting Edict (something which would have prevented us from having to propose at each Senate session an Edict against extermination).

[Smowz]

Right okay,

So really the Charter Amendments are not adaptions to the rules that are to be enforced by TC, they are much like edicts that are to be enforced in character within the game itself.

Sorry I was unclear on the matter, of course I was not a part of the previous KotR or the WoTB games. I found it somewhat baffling how in the senatorial session we were voting on a charter amendment which was an important rule change and then we change to get more IC ones like the interesting ones Ignoramus has suggested. As you have said in this game in particular the lines have become blurred.

My mind is somewhat at rest, though I hope you can see how it may be confusing for a first timer like me!!!

Consider myself :smash: over the head.

[Ituralde]

I'm back. Or rather my family is gone! :2thumbsup:

I see where your problems are coming from Tristan and that the distinction between sections of the Charter that deal with IC concerns and OOC concerns (what you call rules) is difficult, but that's the way it has been handled in the past. That's why some CAs would be labeled OOC CAs to clarify that they adress OOC mechanics that deal with the foundations of the game.

Normal CAs are exactly what you want, a long-term and stronger Edict. Edicts only last for one Senate Session and can not go against the Charter. CAs last until they are revoked and can change or contradict the Charter. Breaking normal CAs is absolutely doable IC and should lead to IC consequences.

While trying to explain this and also while thinking about it this is probably one of the core reasons why we had problems before and maybe will have again. The question becomes once again, what are IC rules, what is OOC rules and what falls somewhere in-between.

That's why I hardly ever reference the Charter in an IC context. It's just too confusing for me.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[_Tristan_]

One question : Ignoramus has granted the Privy Seal to Andronikos (Woad&fangs) but Aleksios' will granted it to Makedonios (PK's avatar).

So shall we consider that part of his will as invalid (so I can't see a reason why it should be) or shall we strike it out of Andronikos' retinue ?