17er Saints and Martyrs

[Vanta Black]

I was all ready to go back to my ISOs and back read and try to brute force a solve today, just to try to get a ittle better at guessing who's scum.

I'm VT, but if y'all wanna maj me instead, looks like we've got room for it.

My thoughts right now are kinda on the frivolous side, because I have not done the brute force thing.

Like, at one point GH said "Let's kill the Australians." Gemma is Australian, right? Ender?

GH also said if Logic v, then I was w, though, that is not the case, which you will know sooner or later.

I think Vanta would be an excellent dog name. Raskolnikov would be a terrible dog name but long ago I named a cat that once. Two black kttens, my roommate and I named them Raskolnikov and Mephisto. Raskolnikov turned out to be a female cat and probably everybody thought we just named her "Rascal." A name that would fit any cat I've ever had.

[Hally]

hey vanta, can you talk about your progression on logic throughout the game? what i saw is:

- you wolf read logic D1 essentially for not believing you’d be his top wolf read. why did you not believe that? what did you think you about his posts outside his push on you?

- i see a lot of posts where you disagreed with logic about whether you or him would be the more unlikely NK (lol) and that seems to be it as far as your interactions go. i can’t tell if you were wolf reading logic for the NK stuff or if it was just something you disagreed with him on?

- it looks like after logic became your top wolf read D1 he stayed at the bottom of your reads list until he got lunched. can you talk more about your thoughts on him from D1 til then? did you have any doubts he would flip wolf during that time? were there other reasons besides his D1 push on you that factored into why he stayed at the bottom?

- D4 when we were lunching logic you said you felt like the game wasn’t as easy as it seemed. why did you think that? why did you vote logic despite feeling like it wasn’t that easy?

sorry if these questions are pedantic or annoying, just trying to backfill your thoughts here

[Hally]

I was all ready to go back to my ISOs and back read and try to brute force a solve today, just to try to get a ittle better at guessing who's scum.

I'm VT, but if y'all wanna maj me instead, looks like we've got room for it.

My thoughts right now are kinda on the frivolous side, because I have not done the brute force thing.

Like, at one point GH said "Let's kill the Australians." Gemma is Australian, right? Ender?

GH also said if Logic v, then I was w, though, that is not the case, which you will know sooner or later.

I think Vanta would be an excellent dog name. Raskolnikov would be a terrible dog name but long ago I named a cat that once. Two black kttens, my roommate and I named them Raskolnikov and Mephisto. Raskolnikov turned out to be a female cat and probably everybody thought we just named her "Rascal." A name that would fit any cat I've ever had.
gth who do you think the last wolf is rn?

[Vanta Black]

hey vanta, can you talk about your progression on logic throughout the game? what i saw is:

- you wolf read logic D1 essentially for not believing you’d be his top wolf read. why did you not believe that? what did you think you about his posts outside his push on you?

- i see a lot of posts where you disagreed with logic about whether you or him would be the more unlikely NK (lol) and that seems to be it as far as your interactions go. i can’t tell if you were wolf reading logic for the NK stuff or if it was just something you disagreed with him on?

- it looks like after logic became your top wolf read D1 he stayed at the bottom of your reads list until he got lunched. can you talk more about your thoughts on him from D1 til then? did you have any doubts he would flip wolf during that time? were there other reasons besides his D1 push on you that factored into why he stayed at the bottom?

- D4 when we were lunching logic you said you felt like the game wasn’t as easy as it seemed. why did you think that? why did you vote logic despite feeling like it wasn’t that easy?

sorry if these questions are pedantic or annoying, just trying to backfill your thoughts here

In reverse to how you asked:

I said the game wasnt as easy as it seemed because I thought Logic was posting very scummy with not a lot of thought. Declared me his top wolf read when I had made very few posts, but never changed when I'd made more. I thought Visor was scum, that was the easy part for me, and a lot of people found Syn pretty quickly. So, easy, until my top read flipped orthogonally to what I'd thought.

I did think Logic's posts D3 were a lot better, and yes, I had doubts. But by then Logic needed to be resolved either way.

The bit about who's the least likely NK was a response to something Logic said, and also something GH said (somethlng like "it made no sense to kill Logic," sounded like GH meant the NK but I think he didn't). That went on way longer than it should have. But legit, I practicallly never get NKed. I think twice, once as an outed cop and once when scum used RNG. In my vast experience of like 22 games. But to answer the question of whether that factored into my wolf read, yes. Making a big deal of how you might be the NK, so you couldn't possibly be w.

Childish answer: He started it!

[Vanta Black]

In reverse to how you asked:

I said the game wasnt as easy as it seemed because I thought Logic was posting very scummy with not a lot of thought. Declared me his top wolf read when I had made very few posts, but never changed when I'd made more. I thought Visor was scum, that was the easy part for me, and a lot of people found Syn pretty quickly. So, easy, until my top read flipped orthogonally to what I'd thought.

I did think Logic's posts D3 were a lot better, and yes, I had doubts. But by then Logic needed to be resolved either way.

The bit about who's the least likely NK was a response to something Logic said, and also something GH said (somethlng like "it made no sense to kill Logic," sounded like GH meant the NK but I think he didn't). That went on way longer than it should have. But legit, I practicallly never get NKed. I think twice, once as an outed cop and once when scum used RNG. In my vast experience of like 22 games. But to answer the question of whether that factored into my wolf read, yes. Making a big deal of how you might be the NK, so you couldn't possibly be w.

Childish answer: He started it!

I THInk this was D4 actually

GTH would prob vote Wisdom right now

[Hally]

In reverse to how you asked:

I said the game wasnt as easy as it seemed because I thought Logic was posting very scummy with not a lot of thought. Declared me his top wolf read when I had made very few posts, but never changed when I'd made more. I thought Visor was scum, that was the easy part for me, and a lot of people found Syn pretty quickly. So, easy, until my top read flipped orthogonally to what I'd thought.
but you said the game didn’t seem easy before logic flipped

im confused lol

[Vanta Black]

but you said the game didn’t seem easy before logic flipped

im confused lol

I did?

Okay, out for a few hours but I'm not dipping, I will be back.

[Hally]

yeah, you posted it here:

Yeah getting the idea that it's not gonna be as easy as it looked.

we hadn’t lunched logic yet

[Hally]

uh

why did he just nope out of the thread lol

[Hally]

man reading gh’s posts is kinda sad because he was all over gemma the entire game

dude got merked cuz we lunched the wrong wolf first and then everyone shat on him saying how terrible his reads were

#justice4gh

[dyachei]

uh

why did he just nope out of the thread lol

pretty sure vantas pronouns are she/her? or am I wrong?

[Hally]

pretty sure vantas pronouns are she/her? or am I wrong?
i have no idea but mb if i fucked up


dya, do you remember why you voted gemma EoD1?

[dyachei]

i have no idea but mb if i fucked up


dya, do you remember why you voted gemma EoD1?

She was wolfier than syn imo. I felt like she was just shit posting even when things got more serious

[nebjiamn]

man reading gh’s posts is kinda sad because he was all over gemma the entire game

dude got merked cuz we lunched the wrong wolf first and then everyone shat on him saying how terrible his reads were

#justice4gh
ya

i feel bad because i got a bit overemotional about his eod2 and pushing me with visor but he played a pretty decent game

sorry GH!

[Hally]

She was wolfier than syn imo. I felt like she was just shit posting even when things got more serious
did you talk about that anywhere? i saw on early D2 you had them as null:

did I forget anyone?

V
murska
rask
Hally

light v
ben
jan
wisdom
ladd maybe

null
gh - depends on what happens with logic
ender
gemma
vanta

wolfy
arctic
logic
visor
even though they hadn’t posted anything between when you voted and then, so not sure what changed?

i don’t see where you talked about them D2 outside of that but not sure if the search function is eating posts

[Hally]

(also it’s funny that i was one of your top villas D2 and iirc i leaned town on you too, and now look at us!)

[Hally]

i skimmed gemma’s iso and i still don’t really have strong thoughts on their posts

their stuff mostly just passes through me but


the bolded lines of this post in particular seem wolfy

the first one is one of ladd’s classic interaction tell iirc. basically that wolves are more likely to tmi a lack of interaction from their bros and say stuff like “X is ignoring me” when it’s prob not something they would notice as town. not sure this is the best example of the tell but

then the second one just seems like a lazy wolf read? they ended up voting murska but i don’t get why based on what they say here
wow this dude is so villagery

[Vanta Black]

yeah, you posted it here:


we hadn’t lunched logic yet

Here is the series of posts I was responding to, with context

Day 1 votecount:

Syn (7) : Ender, Ladd, Jan, Raskolnikov, GH, Arctic, Murska
Logic (3) : Hally, Benneh, Vanta
Murska (2) : Visor, Gemma
Gemma (1) : Dyachei
GH (1) : Zack
Ender (1) : Syn
Vanta (1) : Logic
Visor (1) : Wisdom

If there were wolves bussing Syn, it wasn't many - probably Ender is the only possibility. I'd go back through D2 to see who the people were who were most adamant that there was bussing going on.

Day 2:

Visor (7) : Raskolnikov, Benneh, Hally, Vanta, Arctic, Murska, Ladd
Benneh (2) : Wisdom, Jan
Gemma (2) : Visor, GH
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Arctic (1) : Logic
GH (1) : Ender

If there were wolves bussing Visor, it's not the same people who were bussing Syn unless it's exactly Arctic - who convinced me somewhat with the theatrics at EoD in that case.

Now, Logic's obviously been real suspicious with their votes and reads this game. But Logic did turn out to be town, then Hally and Vanta actually look pretty bad just based on these votecounts - I think Visor was the more likely bus and was probably telling their partners in wolf-chat to pile in, because if we had two mislynches lined up next on GH and Logic the hiding bad guys would have the best chance by digging as deep under cover as they can during the time we're giving them. Not that we don't have people off-wagon who aren't doing much better.

Jan and Ladd have been interesting kills. It's possible they do have a rolecop, but I still don't know why they'd prefer to leave me alive when they know they can't cc me, but they could cc unclaimed PRs later. Of course, maybe it's just that I've been too lazy to be a solving threat. But that's obviously going to change once we get out of consensus lunch territory.
I had suspicions about Murska D1, so did others. I think he was at 3 or 4 votes when he claimed. The claim was one of those “Okay I buy this, for now” things. I was skeptical.

But the first bolded section made it sound like Logic had already flipped town. In retrospect it was missing an “if” but at the time, Logic hadn’t flipped. So that looked a bit TMI to me.

The second one, again with 20/20 hindsight looks like Murska just confused Ladd and Zack, because Ladd was still very much in the thread. My thought there was that Ladd had been discussed as the NK at some point, so again, kinda TMI.

So those two posts changed my worldview and made me think I had miscleared Murska, even though it wasn’t a complete misclear.

Then I posted this:

So...

1. Everything I thought is wrong.

2. Maybe not everything.

3. But possibly.

Between my computer and my brain I've got some lag here. More in a bit.

Ladd posted this:

Ill be around tomorrow but frels like we may need to get ready for a medium difficulty game friendos

And my post that you quoted was in response to this. Like, yeah, it's not gonna be that easy.

So I was wrong about Murska’s post changing my worldview, it shouldn’t have. But at the time, it did.

[Hally]

i got to the part of D2 where ender pushed arctic for terrible reasons and now remember why i wanted to kill him

good thing he’s spewed! :curtain:


(idk what i’m getting out of this tbh, i’m just skimming random pages to kill time until i get to go home)

[Vanta Black]

uh

why did he just nope out of the thread lol

Moi? I had to be afk for a bit, said so two posts above.


I did?

Okay, out for a few hours but I'm not dipping, I will be back.

[Hally]

Here is the series of posts I was responding to, with context

I had suspicions about Murska D1, so did others. I think he was at 3 or 4 votes when he claimed. The claim was one of those “Okay I buy this, for now” things. I was skeptical.

But the first bolded section made it sound like Logic had already flipped town. In retrospect it was missing an “if” but at the time, Logic hadn’t flipped. So that looked a bit TMI to me.

The second one, again with 20/20 hindsight looks like Murska just confused Ladd and Zack, because Ladd was still very much in the thread. My thought there was that Ladd had been discussed as the NK at some point, so again, kinda TMI.

So those two posts changed my worldview and made me think I had miscleared Murska, even though it wasn’t a complete misclear.

Then I posted this:


Ladd posted this:


And my post that you quoted was in response to this. Like, yeah, it's not gonna be that easy.

So I was wrong about Murska’s post changing my worldview, it shouldn’t have. But at the time, it did.
ok thanks, that makes more sense

didn’t realize you were talking about murska not logic


also maybe dumb but the bold/underlined part of this post seems like a kinda difficult thought for a wolf to fake?

[dyachei]

No I didn't talk about it and it wasn't a strong read like my arctic read was.

I couldn't get people on arctic so I went Gemma. I've seen syn do this shit as a villager

[Vanta Black]

ok thanks, that makes more sense

didn’t realize you were talking about murska not logic


also maybe dumb but the bold/underlined part of this post seems like a kinda difficult thought for a wolf to fake?

Not dumb, I'm not a wolf, but this will be good to remember next time I actually am!

[Hally]

i dunno, i’m not really sold on vanta being a wolf y’all :shrug:

[nebjiamn]

i dunno, i’m not really sold on vanta being a wolf y’all :shrug:
ok now what

(i'm not really swayed by their posting but admittedly i'm not swayed by much right now so what else ya got)

[Arctic]

Arctic can you bullet point the reasons you have for wisdom being a wolf?

i see your point about wisdom saying rask looked good for pushing syn but why can’t that just be wisdom thinking rask’s push was villagery independent of syn’s alignment? iirc i thought the same thing

are there other reasons?

it could be, i ack'ed her explanation which was something along these lines

but i think it's her also cuz of these

1. she was repping logic/gh v and but did nothing to stop either elim or even consider killing anyone else
2. she hasn't interacted with my push on her at all until today and i think she would have been more skeeved out by it as V given me trying to kill her over logic at eod4 should have raised alarm bells. i think her progression on me is also just pretty bad, it seemed like she tried to pair me with gemma yesterday (before gemma flipped, notedly) and quickly backed off today after it clearly wasn't happening
3. her posts about gemma yesterday felt like she knew gemma was flipping wolf and the progression from being "idk let the claim resolve" to "oh cool gemma is outted wolf?" is non-existent and simply followed the thread consensus

I also feel like she just did nothing on the days while we were killing logic and GH which is probably not charitable to wolfread cuz a lot of people didn't do much, including me, but I did attempt to do something about the fact I thought logic was flipping v

[Arctic]

syn was a backup not goon so i don’t think it matters from a role standpoint which of syn/gemma dies first

but yeah just from how syn/gemma were posting i think wolves would prefer syn dying over gemma, it just doesn’t feel like gemma was ever really in consideration though? backreading EoD it felt like it was always gonna be syn or logic imo (maybe it felt different in real time though) and dya couldn’t have voted logic given their reads

unironically though dya not pushing syn/visor harder/earlier is one of the things holding me back from thinking it’s dya because i remember them being inclined to bus as a wolf and i’m not sure they would actually let syn/visor die without getting some cred there

well i did say i was going to vote gemma so i thought it was possible maybe

and idk what meta you're referring to, dya doesn't seem big on bussing in my experience

[Arctic]

man reading gh’s posts is kinda sad because he was all over gemma the entire game

dude got merked cuz we lunched the wrong wolf first and then everyone shat on him saying how terrible his reads were

#justice4gh

i blame benneh

[Hally]

ok now what

(i'm not really swayed by their posting but admittedly i'm not swayed by much right now so what else ya got)
idk :shrug:

i’m torn between vanta’s macro body of work being pretty clearly the most underwhelming/having the least going for them vs. the micro moments like the one i just pointed out just not feeling like a wolf

i do think their logic push fits with a wolf who saw logic posting weird and a bunch of loud villagers saying he was wolfy and just rode that out because there doesn’t seem to be really any real thought or consideration of logic’s alignment behind the push afaict, so maybe it’s actually just that easy but i dunno


i still need to actually put my nose to grindstone and case out my concerns re: dya but i’m procrastinating because i’m lazy and slept like shit last night and also i want to see what they do without me on their back (also i am scared to upset them more (esp if i’m wrong))

i will def do it this game day though because i want to make sure you’re alive to weigh in on it

[Arctic]

i dunno, i’m not really sold on vanta being a wolf y’all :shrug:

okay then who is it??? you don't think it's ender, wisdom or vanta so now what

[Hally]

it could be, i ack'ed her explanation which was something along these lines

but i think it's her also cuz of these

1. she was repping logic/gh v and but did nothing to stop either elim or even consider killing anyone else
2. she hasn't interacted with my push on her at all until today and i think she would have been more skeeved out by it as V given me trying to kill her over logic at eod4 should have raised alarm bells. i think her progression on me is also just pretty bad, it seemed like she tried to pair me with gemma yesterday (before gemma flipped, notedly) and quickly backed off today after it clearly wasn't happening
3. her posts about gemma yesterday felt like she knew gemma was flipping wolf and the progression from being "idk let the claim resolve" to "oh cool gemma is outted wolf?" is non-existent and simply followed the thread consensus

I also feel like she just did nothing on the days while we were killing logic and GH which is probably not charitable to wolfread cuz a lot of people didn't do much, including me, but I did attempt to do something about the fact I thought logic was flipping v
alright thanks, i am curious to hear Wisdom’s progression on you from last day to this one cuz yea i’m not sure what happened to her thinking you were a wolf? forgot about that

her town reading logic/gh but not doing anything to save them is maybe my biggest reservation with her? i guess i’m just not sure why a wolf wouldn’t just go along with wolf reading them though. like i said, imo either they are just a villager who has had good reads but lacked the confidence to push them or they are a wolf struggling with TMI who is just saying things they know are mostly true, but i have a hard time seeing them keep up that approach as a wolf in this spot because they’re gonna run out of people they can push and then what? they just die? idk

[Hally]

i blame benneh
it’s actually all zack’s fault :curtain:

[Arctic]

I think wisdom does struggle with TMI as mafia lol. I mean the game I quoted according to them is old, so maybe there's been a recent development I didn't know, but she didn't townread any of her partners in that game and wolfread two of them. I also just don't think people should be clear for pushing wolves if they are known to bus because everyone alive has pushed wolves at some point or other.. except maybe ender unless you count him pushing syn (i don't really, but i still think he's probably v)

I don't think they are boxing themselves in with their reads. They said they think it's vanta but they aren't townreading you either so I presume that's the avenue they would take tomorrow as a wolf if vanta dies today

But even so I think this argument tends to be kind of silly. I feel like nobody in the poe has a plan right now if they're mafia, so unless you think it's someone outside of the poe then i dunno what you expect really. I don't think wisdom is the type to mastermind some kind of plan anyway and she'd probably just take one day at a time to see what she can get

[Hally]

I think wisdom does struggle with TMI as mafia lol. I mean the game I quoted according to them is old, so maybe there's been a recent development I didn't know, but she didn't townread any of her partners in that game and wolfread two of them. I also just don't think people should be clear for pushing wolves if they are known to bus because everyone alive has pushed wolves at some point or other.. except maybe ender unless you count him pushing syn (i don't really, but i still think he's probably v)

I don't think they are boxing themselves in with their reads. They said they think it's vanta but they aren't townreading you either so I presume that's the avenue they would take tomorrow as a wolf if vanta dies today

But even so I think this argument tends to be kind of silly. I feel like nobody in the poe has a plan right now if they're mafia, so unless you think it's someone outside of the poe then i dunno what you expect really. I don't think wisdom is the type to mastermind some kind of plan anyway and she'd probably just take one day at a time to see what she can get
re: the bolded, that’s kind of the point though lol

like, maybe i’m biased but i don’t think it’s actually possible to wolfcase me this game and i don’t know why w!wisdom would think it’s possible. i mean, i dare her to try! but it seems like a bold strategy

point taken on her wolf game though, if i feel like a real degenerate i’ll skim some of her wolf games cuz i don’t really remember her wolf game besides that she’s pretty good

[dyachei]

I'm probably voting vanta today but I wanna give hally time so don't want to maj

[Hally]

yeah please don’t maj, i’m finally home so gonna get to work

high chance i pass out midway through but just give me time

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207851955247128616/12hr_Vote_Count.png?ex=65e126ca&is=65ceb1ca&hm=232747bbd3969ba5b75000f7ca1aa0374f8f9e834134be6c8307c1e15979905d&

https://www.falseknees.com/comics/imgs/304.png

You can do it!


Vote Count

Vanta (3) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh

Haven't voted: Arctic, Vanta, Ender, Dyachei, Hally


Vote History

If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:


Vote: Vanta Black
vote: vanta black
Vote: Vanta






Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1210768604778467339/image.png?ex=65ebc322&is=65d94e22&hm=3605776369f04743e5ee4fdfc087d14a0de3237b55a65e080c6c73e4051a30f1&

EoD5 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1210767431283515463/EoD5_Post_Counts.png?ex=65ebc20a&is=65d94d0a&hm=25e1741aa9284e755ae20a4c107d5ba522a035cdb0a2104b1ca2513c7be66a0e&


Comic from False Knees.

[dyachei]

this is a stupid read but it feels like most of the wolf team kind of gave up a bit and idk that they would have if hally were a wolf

[Hally]

i apologize in advance for the monster of a post you are all hopefully about to read. i’m starting off with dya’s treatment of the wolves because it’s the easiest thing to cover and then i’ll move on to dya’s pushes/progressions and stuff.

look upon my works ye mighty and despair (i am the one despairing)


overview of how dya has treated the wolves

syn
this is the only post where dya talks about syn:

I'm not really interested in elimming syn either because I've seen him do this shit as a villager before. No one says why it's wolfy for him to not engage they just vote him

I do wish he would do more but I don't really think he's a hit
me, zack, gh, etc all felt similarly to dya here so i don’t particularly care about this, just including for completeness sake

they also say this:

i mean you told me you think he's being wolfy but dont want to vote him. That's not me asking you to tunnel him, it's me asking why you aren't willing to vote someone you're wolf reading

I feel like Im continuously being misunderstood this game and im frustrated. that's not on you guys, it's clearly on me since I'm the one that keeps having problems

I'd rather vote murska than syn though
(the top part is about arctic, who they wanted to kill all of D1)

what did murska do that would make him a better vote than syn? i don’t know why dya would vote murska, they didn’t wolf read them in any of their posts so i assume it was because they just didn’t want to vote syn that much?


visor
D1, dya lightly town reads visor here:

idk how to read logic, never really have. Visor i'm still waiting for more on. But I do think it's a good look he sort of defended me because it would have been easy to not and I've found him as wolf before. Ender and I have an oppositional view of each other in almost every game. I think he's wolfy and haven't liked his posts, but I'm not very accurate on him
i don’t understand why this would be enough to lean town on visor but it was D1 and it’s a light read so w/e

D2, dya first lightly pushes back on the visor sus in these two posts:

If logic is a wolf there's a high chance gh is too.

And visor might be but I'm not sure there yet. I'd like to hear more about the wolf reads therr

no but I dont really have reasons he's a wolf either. Just that he could be one. Where i have reasons I think logic +/- GH could be wolves

but then more people come in hot for visor and dya drops him down:

did I forget anyone?

V
murska
rask
Hally

light v
ben
jan
wisdom
ladd maybe

null
gh - depends on what happens with logic
ender
gemma
vanta

wolfy
arctic
logic
visor

I think visor could easily be a wolf. But I also think he could still be a villager. He's kind of fitting that "could go either way" zone for me rn, but I'm trying to consider other people's reads there
they leave their options open but do ultimately maintain their sus on visor for the rest of the day, though they don’t really push it much and focus more on gh/logic/arctic (i can understand this because visor was not posting so there wasn’t much new to say)

to dya’s credit, if they are a villager they reevaluated correctly but overall this seems easily in bus range

dya also tells people not to kill benneh EoD2 and stay the course on visor. probably their most pro-town moment of the game. the reason i’m not giving cred for it is because they were already town reading benneh and sussing visor, so while they say they could easily have reversed those reads and voted benneh, i think that’s just… not true and w!dya would know that doing so there would be outing. there’s just no way they get away with that, and if dya is a wolf they already knew by EoD2 that they were the one that had to carry so it’s far too much of a gamble when it was far from a guarantee they could get bennen to go over there.


gemma
D1, dya responds to gh asking them about gemma here:

i honestly don't know. I wish I did. I think her entrance was a little weird but idk if it's wolfy for her

then EoD1, after murska claims PR, dya votes gemma:

well if the options are murska or syn, I'm always voting syn here. But maybe those don't have to be the options

unvote

vote: gemma
like i said before, this is a good look if only because wolves would def prefer gemma alive over syn. gemma was at least posting stuff whereas syn wasn’t really playing the game, so it would be pretty easy to just bus syn (though i think dya voting syn EoD1 would get them pretty much no cred tbh)

the reason i’m not giving cred for the gemma vote here is because:
1) i think the lunch was always going to be syn or logic after murska claimed (and probably before that too)
2) i actually think it’s better for the wolves to not pile on syn because they want logic to stay close and hope he goes over instead, not make syn a runaway esp when, again, later votes on syn got people basically zero cred as we saw
3) dya does literally nothing to get gemma killed besides naked voting them. they don’t express a wolf read on gemma anywhere or tell other people to vote them.

okay, now here is where it gets really funky: dya claims today that they voted gemma D1 because they wolf read them, but there’s like… no evidence that this wolf read existed lol

on D2, dya has gemma at null despite gemma making no posts between dya voting them and this reads list:

did I forget anyone?

V
murska
rask
Hally

light v
ben
jan
wisdom
ladd maybe

null
gh - depends on what happens with logic
ender
gemma
vanta

wolfy
arctic
logic
visor

arctic even asks dya right after if they still think gemma is a wolf/why they voted them at EoD:

because I didnt want to vote murska and thought syn's large wagon looked bad. I was wrong on the latter part
and dya doesn’t mention wolf reading gemma at all, they just say they didn’t want murska or syn

so like ??? i don’t know if dya is just misremembering why they voted gemma or they actually did wolf read gemma and just never spoke a word about it ever or they are lying today to look better ???

they don’t really talk about gemma again until D4 after people start squinting at them


tl;dr -
my conclusion from all of this is that dya has not meaningfully pushed any wolves this game. their treatment of all three flipped wolves feels easily in w/w range (or straight up doesn’t make sense in gemma’s case), in contrast to everyone else (besides vanta ig) who has pushed wolves in ways i think are at least somewhat unaligning. the wolf they pushed the most is visor i guess? but even him they barely pushed and mostly were riding the momentum of the thread afaict. they also were never pushed or spewed in any way by any of the wolves that i can see.

this concerns me particularly for dya because they are a top tier villager imo. there’s very few people i would put above them. and no offense to the wolves this game but like… none of them were hard to catch at all lol. but all of dya’s hardest/original pushes have been on villagers afaict so i don’t really know what’s going on with them this game if they’re a villager.

all that said, the above isn’t really why i think they’re a wolf. villagers can have off games and be wrong, even very good ones.

—————

the real reason dya is (maybe) a wolf

to put it bluntly, the way dya is making reads this game feels fake/agenda’d to me at several points. i don’t really buy their solving is coming from a real place, it feels more like they’re posting with a certain agenda in mind. i don’t know how to illustrate what i mean without going through a bunch of their progressions and reads so that’s what i’m doing.

disclaimer that this is NOT meant to be an exhaustive overview of everything dya has posted this game, i’m more so trying to isolate specific examples to illustrate my point. you can call it cherrypicking if you want but i actually think i have actually cited all of dya’s main pushes this game unless i missed something.


dya’s treatment of logic/gh
ok, so dya starts out town reading gh for not trying to do anything:

don't tell GH but I am stoked he's playing again

also I think he's v so far but we're still in shitposting

gut feeling is part of it

also he's not tryharding and like...he tends to when he wolfs because he doesn't want to let his team down
i believe dya believes this is gh’s meta regardless of their alignment

where it gets wonky is when logic comes into play after gh town reads him:

I've been waiting to see if gh dropped the shield or not. I'm pretty happy to not have to worry much about logic. Sorry, logic, you're just a hard read for me

i’m just going to quote myself from D1 explaining my issue with this:

one thing that is kinda nagging me about dya:

i’m not sure i buy this treatment of gh/logic? like the way they just uncritically accept gh town reading logic for ??? to the point that they’re like apologizing to logic (for what? lol) and aren’t gonna worry about getting their own read there

me/zack/rask, which i’m pretty sure is all villas, all think logic’s posts are wolfy and are voicing a lot of skepticism about logic being town / don’t understand how gh is confidently town reading him based on what he’s posted. but dya doesn’t seem to have any skepticism about it at all? even though zack, rask and visor (and to a lesser extent myself), all of whom dya has expressed town reading, also have a ton of experience with logic and don’t agree with the read at all

it kinda strikes me like how i would expect a wolf who knows that gh/logic are town and wants to keep gh on side and butter his buns a bit would approach it

because zack also has a “god read” on logic and is like 10000x more villagery than gh in this game and thinks logic is wolfy af? i don’t understand how you’re just ignoring that, isn’t zack like your top villager? do you think he’s lying about always reading logic correctly? why are you not factoring that in and trying to reconcile which is correct? your lack of curiosity or desire to dig into this is just bizarre
i want to emphasize that in response to people questioning their reads on logic and gh, dya doubled down HARD and insisted their meta read on gh was valid and they were correct to sponge gh’s read on logic and not zack’s. these were not reads dya made lightly, they repped that they believed gh/logic were v/v strongly and would not entertain anyone else saying otherwise D1. i’m not going to quote all those posts but you can go look.

okay, now onto D2, here is dya’s first post:

Doesn't this make logic almost assuredly wolf? I can't imagine wolves wouldn't have gotten their shit together to kill him otherwise
wtf lol. everything they posted last day about thinking gh was a villager who could never be wrong that logic was also a villager is completely gone. vanished like it never even existed. logic is now almost assuredly a wolf. here’s dya’s reasoning for the 180:

I had similar thoughts about you. But Zack was sure logic was a wolf and he was counter to a wolf wagon and didn't die so it makes me think logic might be a hit now

Numbers alone mean syn was bussed I think but not sure where to look there

Gh logic was a cw to a wolf and a fairly easy miselim if he's a villager but he didn't die. It makes me think we had w/w wagons. I'd be less convinced if it were someone that isn't usually run up but it was logic specifically. That coupled with zacks read makes me think logic is a wolf. Its not one reason. It's that even with syn doing nothing I would expect wolves to get people to vote with Zack on logic if logic were a villager instead of losing a wolf, even if syn was a weak pr wolf role
this reasoning is like… wack to me. i do think wagonomics stuff was a valid thing to factor in, it was part of my read on logic too. but the difference is i had a preexisting strong wolf read on logic off his posting D1, whereas dya obviously didn’t. also, dya is experienced enough to know that it’s extremely dicey to make stuff like wagonomics the main crux of a read because without knowing who the wolves are you shouldn’t expect they will actually play optimally. sometimes wolf teams are inactive or disorganized or just shit the bed especially because this isn’t a mash where there’s a huge wolf team that can coordinate their votes, it’s just 4 people.

dya also did not care about zack’s read on logic D1 at all and completely relied on gh’s town read so i don’t know why zack dying would completely change things. but look at this:

If logic is a wolf there's a high chance gh is too.

And visor might be but I'm not sure there yet. I'd like to hear more about the wolf reads therr
???

so D1, dya’s logic read was completely sponged from gh who they thought was a villager that could never be wrong. but then D2, based solely off wagonomics and zack dying, now logic is “almost assuredly” a wolf and gh is probably too. what happened to dya’s town read on gh that they fought everyone over D1? now instead of getting logic’s alignment via gh they’re getting gh’s alignment via logic.

i just don’t believe this progression. i could understand if wagonomics + zack dying is reason for dya to question their read on logic and gh, that would be fine. but to go from “glad i don’t have to worry about reading logic this game because gh town read him and i town read gh” to “logic is almost assuredly a wolf and gh is probably a wolf for town reading him” JUST based on that stuff and not anything to do with logic or gh’s actual posts in the game is wack. it feels so agenda’d. i don’t understand how these posts can organically come from someone who had dya’s reads D1.

like, look at this post:

i watched dr horrible a long time ago and remember enjoying it but not any details.

I think visor could easily be a wolf. But I also think he could still be a villager. He's kind of fitting that "could go either way" zone for me rn, but I'm trying to consider other people's reads there

as for your readslist I have quoted it for ease here

your read on me kind of sucks and it takes into account what you think I should know about you and gh that I clearly dont. Idk if you're making assumptions about the games I've been in with the two of you but I am stating things that are real to me and it makes no sense I would lie about them as a wolf. That plus "agenda" seems to be the crux of your issue with me and I know i have no agenda

I'd like to hear more about GH

and i'd like to now why you think visor is a villager considering everyone else this morning is ready to elim him

nebjiamn - gh turn around is because I think logic has major wolf equity this morning and i'd expect gh to pick up on that. I still think how he's playe are villagery for him in a vacuum but GH doesn't suck at this game
first of all, “i'd like to now why you think visor is a villager considering everyone else this morning is ready to elim him” feels really disingenuous given dya didn’t even think visor was wolfy themself, they were just sponging the thread so like ??? why are they implying it’s bad for logic to also not think visor is wolfy.

second, what does the bolded mean? so dya actually does still think gh is a villager on posting, except he’s actually a wolf now because he’s not wolf reading logic, except v!gh not wolf reading logic should make dya also not wolf read logic if they believe gh has a god read, but logic is their top wolf read anyway. ??? the math is not mathing.

then dya maintains wolf reads on logic/gh the rest of the game and notably doesn’t reevaluate on logic at all after gh flips v despite gh still not thinking logic was a wolf when he died. i acknowledge gh was no longer confident logic was town at that point but he clearly didn’t wolf read logic either so like, no reevaluation at all?

i will note late D4 dya does say they are getting cold feet on logic:

I'm starting to get cold feet tbh
and then logic made what, imo, were some villagery posts and self voted, which i would think would make dya even more hesitant to kill him if they were already getting cold feet? but they have zero reaction to any of it and just vote logic anyway:

Vote: logic
and it’s not like they were town reading the counterwagon wisdom at the time, they thought wisdom was a wolf, but they still just killed logic. ok lol.

when i read this entire progression it looks to me like dya initially thought people would care about gh’s logic read more than we did so they just went with it D1, then when people didn’t actually care about it and they realized they needed to get logic mislunched to win, they completely changed tracks and rode that train until he was dead (and killed gh along the way). important to note again that from what i saw their wolf read on logic, which was their main push/focus the majority of the game, was really always about wagonomics and how visor treated logic. i don’t recall them actually explaining why logic was a wolf from his posts (entirely possible i missed it though) which is concerning because as a wolf, pushing villagers off stuff like spew and wagonomics and how wolves treated them is easy. actively fighting through TMI to explain why a person you know is a villager isn’t one is what’s hard. and i think dya’s push on logic leaned way too much into the latter, in contrast to me/benneh/ladd/zack who wolf read logic primarily on his actual posts and only used other stuff to bolster it.


dya’s treatment of ender
for most of the game, dya’s read on ender was basically “i think he’s wolfy but i always think that.” i didn’t see an attempt to move beyond that until D4, when we get this sequence that made me start squinting at dya again:

Ender talking about syn and visor. I think it's very likely he's just a wolf because he goes out of his way to defend both. I think he's taking refuge in audacity. I still think I want logic more.

Think that enders posts about visor are weird because like he basically talks about how he's v reading visor in each one but not why. But he makes sure to point out he is v reading visor constantly

He also called it synful when the wagon was heavily syn. It wasn't a strong defense but I don't think it was just a pun either

Clear jokes can have nuggets of truth in them
i already talked about this read when dya posted it but like, this read feels so fake lol. i legit don’t understand how dya could genuinely believe this if they are a villager. they are using a joke ender made with like two minutes left to EoD when syn had a massive wagon and trying to stretch it into an argument that ender is actually wolfy because him making a pun subtly reveals that he didn’t like the syn wagon even though he made no attempt to push back on the wagon at any point. ????????? wtf is this read i cannot get over it. it just feels like a wolf who zero’d in on the next villager in the PoE that they could paint as wolfy. but they don’t actually make a read on ender’s posts outside of “look he defended wolves, that’s bad” or consider why a wolf would take a refuge in audacity approach and make themselves look terrible for no reason.


dya’s wisdom push
this wolf read was primarily based on a spew read that i think is like… very dubious:

I read visor posts to get an idea of how he treated partners. With syn he almost refused to give a read. He does the same with wisdom which has me worried about her.

Logic he hedges on quite a bit so i'm not sure what to make of it

I dont really think there was much of an agenda other than to not give a read on a partner. I might be wrong, I just want to make sure I keep talking about it so people don't forget.
i’ve spoken about it already so not gonna go over it again in detail but basically, i don’t think that the post where visor talked about wisdom and the one where he talked syn are actually similar. the intent of them seems clearly different. with syn, visor was pushing an agenda—get people off syn and onto murska. with wisdom there was no agenda, it was just “im not reading them lol.” when i pointed this out to dya they said visor’s agenda with the wisdom post was just to not give a read on a teammate but that’s not really an agenda? and visor is obviously capable of giving reads on teammates so.

but anyway, i don’t really care about this read because dya has reevaluated today and is now town reading wisdom. the reason i point it out is because it’s another instance of an original wolf read by dya that’s based not on actual posting but on spew, which again, super easy for a wolf to do.


poor wittle arcy
dya’s other main/original read that i didn’t touch on yet was their push on arctic D1/D2, which was essentially an OMGUS in response to arctic wolf reading them D1 that was dressed up with dya not thinking arctic would be so confidently incorrect on them. i think it’s well within dya’s town range to OMGUS but it’s also like the easiest way to push someone as a wolf and generate villagery looking interactions by basically getting into a fight over a wolf read on you. what’s weird to me about this one was dya saying that they haven’t played that much with arctic, so they thought it was wolfy that he was confident they were a wolf, but i feel like someone who doesn’t know you that well is more likely to be have misplaced confidence about reading you not less likely? and they are more likely to misread you not less. so i don’t really get the standard dya was holding arctic to in order to push him so hard over his read on them.

—————

ok now what

okay, that’s everything i wanted to talk about i think. i think i did a decent job covering dya’s body of work but it’s very possible i missed important stuff. at first i literally just skimmed every page of the thread looking for dya’s posts because search function wouldn’t show me all of them and messed up the order but somewhere along the way i got lazier and might not have seen everything, and then i gave up staring last day and today because that stuff is fresher for people anyway.

i hope i explained everything clearly enough. the main things i would hope people read are the treatment of wolves sections (especially gemma)?and the section about gh/logic. the gh/logic stuff in particular is really where it clicked for me and i feel like i see a very clear agenda in dya’s posts so please read that if nothing else.

i want to stress that this is not a lock wolf read on dya. i think dya has posted extremely well if they are a wolf this game. it would definitely be one of the better wolf games i can recall from them. i don’t want this post to be taken as me having absolutely no doubt dya is a wolf and demanding that you lunch them right now. despite how this post may sound at points, i do have doubt. i will always have doubts. i honestly debated not even going through this because i don’t want the thread to become just me and dya fighting when i’m not like actually certain and nobody else agrees with me which makes me feel like i could be completely dumb and overcomplicating things when it’s actually the easy answer in vanta and i’m being a moron. i’m even debating not posting it now even after i just wrote the entire thing and saving it to post in postgame if dya ends up being the wolf so i can say how i knew, but i will hugely regret not actually laying this stuff out if it does actually end up being dya and i let them get away so here you go lol.

oh my god i have been working on this post for 5 hours (casual game btw)

[Hally]

that’s either gonna be the best or the worst post i’ve ever made in a mafia game, there is no in between :clown:

[Hally]

ok now let’s maj vanta immediately so i will look the maximum amount of stupid when they flip wolf

[Vanta Black]

that’s either gonna be the best or the worst post i’ve ever made in a mafia game, there is no in between :clown:

No, I really liked it. That is the kind of analysis I am trying to do, good stuff.

[Vanta Black]

I mean, it's great if dya flips wolf, it's still good if not because it focuses things.

[Wisdom]

Hally why are you like this

[nebjiamn]

i apologize in advance for the monster of a post you are all hopefully about to read. i’m starting off with dya’s treatment of the wolves because it’s the easiest thing to cover and then i’ll move on to dya’s pushes/progressions and stuff.

look upon my works ye mighty and despair (i am the one despairing)


overview of how dya has treated the wolves

syn
this is the only post where dya talks about syn:

me, zack, gh, etc all felt similarly to dya here so i don’t particularly care about this, just including for completeness sake

they also say this:

(the top part is about arctic, who they wanted to kill all of D1)

what did murska do that would make him a better vote than syn? i don’t know why dya would vote murska, they didn’t wolf read them in any of their posts so i assume it was because they just didn’t want to vote syn that much?


visor
D1, dya lightly town reads visor here:

i don’t understand why this would be enough to lean town on visor but it was D1 and it’s a light read so w/e

D2, dya first lightly pushes back on the visor sus in these two posts:



but then more people come in hot for visor and dya drops him down:


they leave their options open but do ultimately maintain their sus on visor for the rest of the day, though they don’t really push it much and focus more on gh/logic/arctic (i can understand this because visor was not posting so there wasn’t much new to say)

to dya’s credit, if they are a villager they reevaluated correctly but overall this seems easily in bus range

dya also tells people not to kill benneh EoD2 and stay the course on visor. probably their most pro-town moment of the game. the reason i’m not giving cred for it is because they were already town reading benneh and sussing visor, so while they say they could easily have reversed those reads and voted benneh, i think that’s just… not true and w!dya would know that doing so there would be outing. there’s just no way they get away with that, and if dya is a wolf they already knew by EoD2 that they were the one that had to carry so it’s far too much of a gamble when it was far from a guarantee they could get bennen to go over there.


gemma
D1, dya responds to gh asking them about gemma here:


then EoD1, after murska claims PR, dya votes gemma:

like i said before, this is a good look if only because wolves would def prefer gemma alive over syn. gemma was at least posting stuff whereas syn wasn’t really playing the game, so it would be pretty easy to just bus syn (though i think dya voting syn EoD1 would get them pretty much no cred tbh)

the reason i’m not giving cred for the gemma vote here is because:
1) i think the lunch was always going to be syn or logic after murska claimed (and probably before that too)
2) i actually think it’s better for the wolves to not pile on syn because they want logic to stay close and hope he goes over instead, not make syn a runaway esp when, again, later votes on syn got people basically zero cred as we saw
3) dya does literally nothing to get gemma killed besides naked voting them. they don’t express a wolf read on gemma anywhere or tell other people to vote them.

okay, now here is where it gets really funky: dya claims today that they voted gemma D1 because they wolf read them, but there’s like… no evidence that this wolf read existed lol

on D2, dya has gemma at null despite gemma making no posts between dya voting them and this reads list:


arctic even asks dya right after if they still think gemma is a wolf/why they voted them at EoD:

and dya doesn’t mention wolf reading gemma at all, they just say they didn’t want murska or syn

so like ??? i don’t know if dya is just misremembering why they voted gemma or they actually did wolf read gemma and just never spoke a word about it ever or they are lying today to look better ???

they don’t really talk about gemma again until D4 after people start squinting at them


tl;dr -
my conclusion from all of this is that dya has not meaningfully pushed any wolves this game. their treatment of all three flipped wolves feels easily in w/w range (or straight up doesn’t make sense in gemma’s case), in contrast to everyone else (besides vanta ig) who has pushed wolves in ways i think are at least somewhat unaligning. the wolf they pushed the most is visor i guess? but even him they barely pushed and mostly were riding the momentum of the thread afaict. they also were never pushed or spewed in any way by any of the wolves that i can see.

this concerns me particularly for dya because they are a top tier villager imo. there’s very few people i would put above them. and no offense to the wolves this game but like… none of them were hard to catch at all lol. but all of dya’s hardest/original pushes have been on villagers afaict so i don’t really know what’s going on with them this game if they’re a villager.

all that said, the above isn’t really why i think they’re a wolf. villagers can have off games and be wrong, even very good ones.

—————

the real reason dya is (maybe) a wolf

to put it bluntly, the way dya is making reads this game feels fake/agenda’d to me at several points. i don’t really buy their solving is coming from a real place, it feels more like they’re posting with a certain agenda in mind. i don’t know how to illustrate what i mean without going through a bunch of their progressions and reads so that’s what i’m doing.

disclaimer that this is NOT meant to be an exhaustive overview of everything dya has posted this game, i’m more so trying to isolate specific examples to illustrate my point. you can call it cherrypicking if you want but i actually think i have actually cited all of dya’s main pushes this game unless i missed something.


dya’s treatment of logic/gh
ok, so dya starts out town reading gh for not trying to do anything:


i believe dya believes this is gh’s meta regardless of their alignment

where it gets wonky is when logic comes into play after gh town reads him:


i’m just going to quote myself from D1 explaining my issue with this:


i want to emphasize that in response to people questioning their reads on logic and gh, dya doubled down HARD and insisted their meta read on gh was valid and they were correct to sponge gh’s read on logic and not zack’s. these were not reads dya made lightly, they repped that they believed gh/logic were v/v strongly and would not entertain anyone else saying otherwise D1. i’m not going to quote all those posts but you can go look.

okay, now onto D2, here is dya’s first post:

wtf lol. everything they posted last day about thinking gh was a villager who could never be wrong that logic was also a villager is completely gone. vanished like it never even existed. logic is now almost assuredly a wolf. here’s dya’s reasoning for the 180:


this reasoning is like… wack to me. i do think wagonomics stuff was a valid thing to factor in, it was part of my read on logic too. but the difference is i had a preexisting strong wolf read on logic off his posting D1, whereas dya obviously didn’t. also, dya is experienced enough to know that it’s extremely dicey to make stuff like wagonomics the main crux of a read because without knowing who the wolves are you shouldn’t expect they will actually play optimally. sometimes wolf teams are inactive or disorganized or just shit the bed especially because this isn’t a mash where there’s a huge wolf team that can coordinate their votes, it’s just 4 people.

dya also did not care about zack’s read on logic D1 at all and completely relied on gh’s town read so i don’t know why zack dying would completely change things. but look at this:

???

so D1, dya’s logic read was completely sponged from gh who they thought was a villager that could never be wrong. but then D2, based solely off wagonomics and zack dying, now logic is “almost assuredly” a wolf and gh is probably too. what happened to dya’s town read on gh that they fought everyone over D1? now instead of getting logic’s alignment via gh they’re getting gh’s alignment via logic.

i just don’t believe this progression. i could understand if wagonomics + zack dying is reason for dya to question their read on logic and gh, that would be fine. but to go from “glad i don’t have to worry about reading logic this game because gh town read him and i town read gh” to “logic is almost assuredly a wolf and gh is probably a wolf for town reading him” JUST based on that stuff and not anything to do with logic or gh’s actual posts in the game is wack. it feels so agenda’d. i don’t understand how these posts can organically come from someone who had dya’s reads D1.

like, look at this post:

first of all, “i'd like to now why you think visor is a villager considering everyone else this morning is ready to elim him” feels really disingenuous given dya didn’t even think visor was wolfy themself, they were just sponging the thread so like ??? why are they implying it’s bad for logic to also not think visor is wolfy.

second, what does the bolded mean? so dya actually does still think gh is a villager on posting, except he’s actually a wolf now because he’s not wolf reading logic, except v!gh not wolf reading logic should make dya also not wolf read logic if they believe gh has a god read, but logic is their top wolf read anyway. ??? the math is not mathing.

then dya maintains wolf reads on logic/gh the rest of the game and notably doesn’t reevaluate on logic at all after gh flips v despite gh still not thinking logic was a wolf when he died. i acknowledge gh was no longer confident logic was town at that point but he clearly didn’t wolf read logic either so like, no reevaluation at all?

i will note late D4 dya does say they are getting cold feet on logic:

and then logic made what, imo, were some villagery posts and self voted, which i would think would make dya even more hesitant to kill him if they were already getting cold feet? but they have zero reaction to any of it and just vote logic anyway:

and it’s not like they were town reading the counterwagon wisdom at the time, they thought wisdom was a wolf, but they still just killed logic. ok lol.

when i read this entire progression it looks to me like dya initially thought people would care about gh’s logic read more than we did so they just went with it D1, then when people didn’t actually care about it and they realized they needed to get logic mislunched to win, they completely changed tracks and rode that train until he was dead (and killed gh along the way). important to note again that from what i saw their wolf read on logic, which was their main push/focus the majority of the game, was really always about wagonomics and how visor treated logic. i don’t recall them actually explaining why logic was a wolf from his posts (entirely possible i missed it though) which is concerning because as a wolf, pushing villagers off stuff like spew and wagonomics and how wolves treated them is easy. actively fighting through TMI to explain why a person you know is a villager isn’t one is what’s hard. and i think dya’s push on logic leaned way too much into the latter, in contrast to me/benneh/ladd/zack who wolf read logic primarily on his actual posts and only used other stuff to bolster it.


dya’s treatment of ender
for most of the game, dya’s read on ender was basically “i think he’s wolfy but i always think that.” i didn’t see an attempt to move beyond that until D4, when we get this sequence that made me start squinting at dya again:



i already talked about this read when dya posted it but like, this read feels so fake lol. i legit don’t understand how dya could genuinely believe this if they are a villager. they are using a joke ender made with like two minutes left to EoD when syn had a massive wagon and trying to stretch it into an argument that ender is actually wolfy because him making a pun subtly reveals that he didn’t like the syn wagon even though he made no attempt to push back on the wagon at any point. ????????? wtf is this read i cannot get over it. it just feels like a wolf who zero’d in on the next villager in the PoE that they could paint as wolfy. but they don’t actually make a read on ender’s posts outside of “look he defended wolves, that’s bad” or consider why a wolf would take a refuge in audacity approach and make themselves look terrible for no reason.


dya’s wisdom push
this wolf read was primarily based on a spew read that i think is like… very dubious:


i’ve spoken about it already so not gonna go over it again in detail but basically, i don’t think that the post where visor talked about wisdom and the one where he talked syn are actually similar. the intent of them seems clearly different. with syn, visor was pushing an agenda—get people off syn and onto murska. with wisdom there was no agenda, it was just “im not reading them lol.” when i pointed this out to dya they said visor’s agenda with the wisdom post was just to not give a read on a teammate but that’s not really an agenda? and visor is obviously capable of giving reads on teammates so.

but anyway, i don’t really care about this read because dya has reevaluated today and is now town reading wisdom. the reason i point it out is because it’s another instance of an original wolf read by dya that’s based not on actual posting but on spew, which again, super easy for a wolf to do.


poor wittle arcy
dya’s other main/original read that i didn’t touch on yet was their push on arctic D1/D2, which was essentially an OMGUS in response to arctic wolf reading them D1 that was dressed up with dya not thinking arctic would be so confidently incorrect on them. i think it’s well within dya’s town range to OMGUS but it’s also like the easiest way to push someone as a wolf and generate villagery looking interactions by basically getting into a fight over a wolf read on you. what’s weird to me about this one was dya saying that they haven’t played that much with arctic, so they thought it was wolfy that he was confident they were a wolf, but i feel like someone who doesn’t know you that well is more likely to be have misplaced confidence about reading you not less likely? and they are more likely to misread you not less. so i don’t really get the standard dya was holding arctic to in order to push him so hard over his read on them.

—————

ok now what

okay, that’s everything i wanted to talk about i think. i think i did a decent job covering dya’s body of work but it’s very possible i missed important stuff. at first i literally just skimmed every page of the thread looking for dya’s posts because search function wouldn’t show me all of them and messed up the order but somewhere along the way i got lazier and might not have seen everything, and then i gave up staring last day and today because that stuff is fresher for people anyway.

i hope i explained everything clearly enough. the main things i would hope people read are the treatment of wolves sections (especially gemma)?and the section about gh/logic. the gh/logic stuff in particular is really where it clicked for me and i feel like i see a very clear agenda in dya’s posts so please read that if nothing else.

i want to stress that this is not a lock wolf read on dya. i think dya has posted extremely well if they are a wolf this game. it would definitely be one of the better wolf games i can recall from them. i don’t want this post to be taken as me having absolutely no doubt dya is a wolf and demanding that you lunch them right now. despite how this post may sound at points, i do have doubt. i will always have doubts. i honestly debated not even going through this because i don’t want the thread to become just me and dya fighting when i’m not like actually certain and nobody else agrees with me which makes me feel like i could be completely dumb and overcomplicating things when it’s actually the easy answer in vanta and i’m being a moron. i’m even debating not posting it now even after i just wrote the entire thing and saving it to post in postgame if dya ends up being the wolf so i can say how i knew, but i will hugely regret not actually laying this stuff out if it does actually end up being dya and i let them get away so here you go lol.

oh my god i have been working on this post for 5 hours (casual game btw)
tldr

[Wisdom]

I read it through though and I buy it.

Mostly because I don't really wolf read Vanta as much as I couldn’t see anyone else be possible wolf, I even town cased her earlier.

Hally's lock town btw! See, I didn't need to case you after all. Ender is as well. And I town read Benneh. Leaving Arctic/Dya/Vanta.

Something about Arctic that Hally didn't mention is how Dya doesn't really seem to care about their earlier hard wolf read on Arctic anymore. And yeah progression reads are dumb but I've gotten the vibe that they lock onto a train of thought for the moment without really weaving it into previous thoughts. I don't really know Dya's play enough to say it's wolfy for them though, but it vibes wolfy to me. I've moved them up and down on my list a lot because I tend to fing aggro towny and they seem genuinely upset getting pushed or misunderstood, but at the same time they're not in my Vibe (which Benneh and Hally has been for a while and so was GH and Logic).

Anyway, I'm sorry if this is upsetting but

Vote: Dyachei

[Wisdom]

Btw, had I been wolfing here I would probably try harder to keep those wrong strong town reads (ladd, Jan, GH?) alive. A bit of self meta but hey, bussing all mates and play solo against 6 players whereas a lot has sussed me this game, sounds strategically suboptimal.

[nebjiamn]

I read it through though and I buy it.

Mostly because I don't really wolf read Vanta as much as I couldn’t see anyone else be possible wolf, I even town cased her earlier.

Hally's lock town btw! See, I didn't need to case you after all. Ender is as well. And I town read Benneh. Leaving Arctic/Dya/Vanta.

Something about Arctic that Hally didn't mention is how Dya doesn't really seem to care about their earlier hard wolf read on Arctic anymore. And yeah progression reads are dumb but I've gotten the vibe that they lock onto a train of thought for the moment without really weaving it into previous thoughts. I don't really know Dya's play enough to say it's wolfy for them though, but it vibes wolfy to me. I've moved them up and down on my list a lot because I tend to fing aggro towny and they seem genuinely upset getting pushed or misunderstood, but at the same time they're not in my Vibe (which Benneh and Hally has been for a while and so was GH and Logic).

Anyway, I'm sorry if this is upsetting but

Vote: Dyachei
i think it would be hard for dya to still be wolf reading arctic atp with what we know about the wolf team

[nebjiamn]

Vote: unvote

cyall tomorrow

[Vanta Black]

Btw, had I been wolfing here I would probably try harder to keep those wrong strong town reads (ladd, Jan, GH?) alive. A bit of self meta but hey, bussing all mates and play solo against 6 players whereas a lot has sussed me this game, sounds strategically suboptimal.

I know some folks earlier said they had trouble understanding Wisdom's posts, and I didn't see it. Maybe I was reading too fast. Maybe too slow. Don't like the justification of why Wisdom is not a wolf.

But this one? I don't get at all. Specifically, why the strong town reads were wrong.

[Vanta Black]

Also, and I thought I added this to the end of my previous post, I don't like the whole "why I am not a wolf here" I got from Wisdom's post. Why? No vote pressure at the moment.

Will confess that I was hoping to come up with a nice wall myself, and maybe convince myself whether to vote Wisdom or Ender. But I'm a little intimidated by Hally's thorough post, and also I am sleepy. All I have is real level 0 stuff.

I didn't like that a lot of Wisdom's wolf reads went like this: "There's at least one wolf in [names 6 players]." "My POE right now is [names five players]. Did not seem to be narrowing that POE throughout the game. Wolfread a couple of players for very thin reasons, for nstance in here

Can anyone confirm if Hally usually talks to the void like this? I haven't played with them in a good while but it's wolf indicative in my book (gut says they're town though).

And then immediate rescinded the wolf read.

And then this:

If Visor is a wolf here then pushing Gemma is really the best course of action.

If Gemma is wolf then Visor is confident that he will go over her anyway so it's great distancing. If Gemma is town it pretty much forces her to hard claim which mostly just benefits wolves.

This sounds like something that might have been discussed in wolf chat.

##vote Wisdom

Okay, I'm out, see youse guys on the other side.

[Raskolnikov]

tldr

Dya is a wolf. for how they treated dead wolves, but more importantly for how they formed read on people (Logic, GH, Wisdom etc). I need more time to digest it but it's an amazing post lol.

Having say that, lettuce cfd Hally, that was a monstrousity :curtain:

[Raskolnikov]

unvote

[Raskolnikov]

the host is comicly wolfsiding btw :stare:

[Raskolnikov]

Nice post about your cats Vanta btw :bow:

[Raskolnikov]

OK something I've been thinking at for a while now, and furthermore since this morning when I read Hally's post, but also since Gemma flipped as the third wolf.

Arctic told us he could solve the game after we flipped three wolves (that was a shocker tbh, from which I am still trying to recover), and though I am not sure I am up to his top tier skill level or anything, let me be real, I wanna help him.

So I've been back reading, ISOing both Dya and Hally. Rereading vote historys etc and suddently I saw it, the unquestionnable truth:

Hally and Dya aren't ww.

More l8r :curtain:

[Raskolnikov]

Ok now what.

2 MLs, sleep Fx. Need a winning 3 people POE.

Benneh, Hally, Arctic are just villas. (Lol casual Hally)
Wisdom and Ender are kindof the same category tbh. I wouldnt say they are never a wolf but I hardly see the plan there. Ender is definatly capable of lolcating till he wins in Fx but his treatment of Gemma and also the way he wrote me off as villa D2 when I was not there tells me he is just a villager.

Dya Ive been town reading, but lets be honnest, it might be for weak reasons (maybe Ive taking Dya things for AI things) compared to what Hally brought up.

Vanta just rand to me at this point. Just never take her to Fx.

So like Dya or Vanta toDay and D7, then Wisdom if it fails. If this doesnt win, well, GG WP.

:bow:

[Raskolnikov]

Vote: Dya (if wrong, just blame Hally :hide:)

[dyachei]

Vote: Dya (if wrong, just blame Hally :hide:)

Hally is wrong but idc anymore because as I said d1 I'm never getting out of the poe

When I'm dead remember to vote vanta.

And tbh it felt like hally was upset I didn't broadcast all my thoughts in a thread with a 50 post per day limit that I hit at least d1

[dyachei]

Vote: vanta

Still am a villager but halls gonna get her way and I don't have time for this game anymore since it's the weekend and both kids are home all day

[Raskolnikov]

this is totally normal



Btw another micro read about Arctic but I don't see a wolf replying this to my EOD1 post. We have had some back and forth D1 with Arctic so I decided to provide cover to town PRs and soft a vig shot on him lol. I don't think he reacts to it if wolf tbh.

[dyachei]

I'm not sure why it's wolfy I never said more than that gemmas entrance was wolfy because there wasn't a lot to read on d1 from Gemma

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah dw Dya, we will bring it home if you are a villager anyway. Good week end with kiddos and family

[dyachei]

Also I changed my read on arctic when he and I melded over eod2. That also doesn't make me a wolf and it had nothing to do with game state but you won't see that from hallys cherry picked posts

[dyachei]

I honestly think I've been strictly in my villager meta today so like git gud hally

[dyachei]

You guys are treating me like gh but this time you know I was right about eod1 so it's kind of confusing. And Gemma was a better vote than visor or syn so like get wrekt. You've been telling me how much I've sucked since d1 and it really kind of sucks

Oh well I'm out

[dyachei]

Rask please read my posts on your own instead of just reading hallys biased synopsis.

[Wisdom]

I know some folks earlier said they had trouble understanding Wisdom's posts, and I didn't see it. Maybe I was reading too fast. Maybe too slow. Don't like the justification of why Wisdom is not a wolf.

But this one? I don't get at all. Specifically, why the strong town reads were wrong.

Sorry, those who strongly town read me*

[dyachei]

Rask Ben and arctic are always town don't Elim them. Vanta wisdom and hally is the poe when I'm gone

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1206945993430532186/24hr_Vote_Count.png?ex=65dddb0c&is=65cb660c&hm=b327bef513950a32be9fed1ed04e2e5a91adab7fb991f2c8761d9371514adb15&

https://media.tenor.com/Ua54mFMUFeAAAAAi/banana-dancing.gif

Comically wolfsiding ftw!


Vote Count

Dyachei (2) : Wisdom, Raskolnikov
Wisdom (1) : Vanta
Vanta (1) : Dyachei

Not voting: Benneh
Haven't voted: Arctic, Ender, Hally


Vote History

If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:


Vote: Vanta Black
vote: vanta black
Vote: Vanta
Vote: Dyachei
Vote: unvote
##vote Wisdom
unvote
Vote: Dya
Vote: vanta







Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1210949887697621042/image.png?ex=65ec6bf7&is=65d9f6f7&hm=b5cd56d3ea9e154fe017d7be63515ff72e6ce5db9fd45cdacea11fcd684a6266&

EoD5 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1210767431283515463/EoD5_Post_Counts.png?ex=65ebc20a&is=65d94d0a&hm=25e1741aa9284e755ae20a4c107d5ba522a035cdb0a2104b1ca2513c7be66a0e&


Please use the "Vote: Player" format. That colon is important.

[dyachei]

Oh I forgot ender. He's in the poe

[EnderWiggin]

Rask Ben and arctic are always town don't Elim them. Vanta wisdom and hally is the poe when I'm gone

:curtain:

[EnderWiggin]

I'll be around for a bit at a terrible hour because I wanna get some stuff done on this game and wildly following other people is something I hate so idk we wildin

[EnderWiggin]

That is to say I'm going to go reread a bunch I'll be back in 30 minutes when I half fall asleep at my desk.

[Raskolnikov]

https://www.govloop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/presentations-put-people-sleep.gif

[Raskolnikov]

Ender, just make sure to read this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053855888&viewfull=1#post2053855888) while catching up. I feel like we will get closer to the a correct solve if townies give it some thought

[EnderWiggin]

I'm back to defending Dya tbh. They have little interaction in early game but Dya's attempt to bring Gemma up as a wolf at the end of day 1 wasn't a great effort, but it isn't in line with what I know for Dya's wolf game. (Specifically bringing a 2nd wolf into a situation that has 1 wolf/1 town as lead wagons.)

[EnderWiggin]

Ender, just make sure to read this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053855888&viewfull=1#post2053855888) while catching up. I feel like we will get closer to the a correct solve if townies give it some thought

Huh. Thank you. I never would've got there myself.

[Raskolnikov]

jan no offense, but that's the lamest reason to not vote someone I've ever heard. And I've played with people who have voted mech cleared villagers

if arctic is being wolfy now just vote them now. Don't wait for them to continue being wolfy


i mean you told me you think he's being wolfy but dont want to vote him. That's not me asking you to tunnel him, it's me asking why you aren't willing to vote someone you're wolf reading

I feel like Im continuously being misunderstood this game and im frustrated. that's not on you guys, it's clearly on me since I'm the one that keeps having problems

I'd rather vote murska than syn though


well if the options are murska or syn, I'm always voting syn here. But maybe those don't have to be the options

unvote

vote: gemma



Yes Ender, but for instance these post exist. It doesn't look like Gemma was the plan. I can see w!Dya switching to a light bus on Gemma when they saw Syn being the chop and Ladd starting to post stuff like "if Syn flips red, Visor is next" (post 702, two posts before Dya switching to Gemma)

[EnderWiggin]

Yes Ender, but for instance these post exist. It doesn't look like Gemma was the plan. I can see w!Dya switching to a light bus on Gemma when they saw Syn being the chop and Ladd starting to post stuff like "if Syn flips red, Visor is next" (post 702, two posts before Dya switching to Gemma)

Ngl bruv, feels like a stretch. Especially since:
1. Dya's earlier posts easily could cover a Murska vote (he hadn't claimed yet.)
2. If Dya wanted to bus and had "given up" on Syn then voting Syn would be better in terms of value.
3. Gemma is a PR they would want to keep around and there were several people that had talked about sussing/voting Gemma. Voting that and throwing it out like that has a lot more danger than some other options.

But I acknowledge that's not that much stronger than your side. It's partially assumption and I am afraid I might be wrong with it.

Btu there's another reason I kinda townread Dya here.

Gemma has had a strong need to interact with her partners.

Day 1:
Interactions with Flipped Wolf Visor:

i was about to swap my vote to visor but now the dogged detrermination has set in >:[

i alos have no idea if this is a real read or not lol


i mean i cant even tell if he actually wants to yeet them so like

Visor wolfy sup who is wolf etc


good question

ask me again in about 7 hours


so when im asleep

ok sure will do


https://media2.giphy.com/media/dB12mOQb99BwDlM83I/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952klb6jepknuzk9rhhi7ncwvpemfot2pq0epiiqrhi&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

(In reference to Gemma's wallpost)

Interactions with Flipped Wolf Syn:

why tho


he called me based


ur based


:((

(I already called this out D2 as very w/w looking.)

Both cases they hadn't been interacting and Gemma felt the need to force a weird interaction. Dya also didn't interact with Gemma but there was no attempt from Gemma to push any sort of interaction.

[EnderWiggin]

As above the one that twigged me most the same way:
Interactions with Vanta:

oh righjt you exist

hi hello welcome


rescinded btw


Is this because I made one post and got quiet?



Is this.

[EnderWiggin]

Which is very funny given my opinions on Vanta all game long. I think I wanted Vanta to be towning with me and I've been huffing copium and they might just be last wolf.

[EnderWiggin]

Note: Gemma needing partner interaction doesn't mean that one of the people who she interacted with more couldn't be the other partner.

I mostly bring it up because the complete lack of interest in talking to Dya felt different to how she treated either partner. Or me/Arctic. (Both in my and Arctic's case there was strong appeals/reacting to our reads in exaggerated fashion.

[EnderWiggin]

Also I am so spewed clear between Syn and Gemma lmao.

[EnderWiggin]

Wisdom also doesn't really have interactions but... also never was really in thread at the same time usually so idk how to read that.

I could be offtrack.

[Raskolnikov]

acknowledged Ender. It may be a stretch I agree, but again, w!Dya prolly doesn't want to chop Syn D1, may not want to chop Logic either (because of their D1 read) so may have ended up on a vanity wolf wagon which could be pointed at later (lettuce be real, Gemma was never dying D1 if you remember how it played out)

My point being that your reason to dismiss wolf!Dya isn't valid. (I am not saying my stuff is what happened, but it could be, so your reasonning doesn't stand)

[EnderWiggin]

acknowledged Ender. It may be a stretch I agree, but again, w!Dya prolly doesn't want to chop Syn D1, may not want to chop Logic either (because of their D1 read) so may have ended up on a vanity wolf wagon which could be pointed at later (lettuce be real, Gemma was never dying D1 if you remember how it played out)

My point being that your reason to dismiss wolf!Dya isn't valid. (I am not saying my stuff is what happened, but it could be, so your reasonning doesn't stand)

What about see Gemma and pushing interactions with partners?

[Raskolnikov]

What about see Gemma and pushing interactions with partners?

well I kindof don't wanna too, because you are going to call me obvious wolf for EOD5 :curtain:

[dyachei]

acknowledged Ender. It may be a stretch I agree, but again, w!Dya prolly doesn't want to chop Syn D1, may not want to chop Logic either (because of their D1 read) so may have ended up on a vanity wolf wagon which could be pointed at later (lettuce be real, Gemma was never dying D1 if you remember how it played out)

My point being that your reason to dismiss wolf!Dya isn't valid. (I am not saying my stuff is what happened, but it could be, so your reasonning doesn't stand)

Hallys whole case isn't valid but you seem to be giving it credence. No way I bus a pr over a goon when I could easily have swung onto syn

[Raskolnikov]

I kindly disagree Dya, because

- the state of your reads at EOD1 (u even replied to Ladd you and GH were the main "resistors" to Syn's wagon because you weren't seeing the things we were pointing at)
- again, there is no way you convince me Gemma had any chance to go over D1. (so the argument "I am not chopping a PR over a goon" isn't valid to me)

[Raskolnikov]

well I kindof don't wanna too, because you are going to call me obvious wolf for EOD5 :curtain:

Keep up the good work though ;)

[Arctic]

Hally how about i'll let you have 1 non-wisdom elim today

it's vanta or dya i assume

but after that, if the game doesn't end, unless you explain to me why wisdom is town outside of the nonsensical "they don't have a plan here as wolf" (none of the wolves did btw lmfao i mean look at syn, visor, and then the closest thing would be gemma rolling with a claim that was still gonna end up guaranteeing their death) then we're going to kill them

and this isn't even true anymore
look at their read on me
they tried pairing me with gemma, then after everyone says i'm town quickly forgot about it, and now after sheeping your case on dya i'm suddenly back in her poe again and you're not, a poe of 3 people, which is enough elims to win, and they can very easily get vanta killed afterwards so they have a clear path to f3

[Arctic]

I read it through though and I buy it.

Mostly because I don't really wolf read Vanta as much as I couldn’t see anyone else be possible wolf, I even town cased her earlier.

Hally's lock town btw! See, I didn't need to case you after all. Ender is as well. And I town read Benneh. Leaving Arctic/Dya/Vanta.

Something about Arctic that Hally didn't mention is how Dya doesn't really seem to care about their earlier hard wolf read on Arctic anymore. And yeah progression reads are dumb but I've gotten the vibe that they lock onto a train of thought for the moment without really weaving it into previous thoughts. I don't really know Dya's play enough to say it's wolfy for them though, but it vibes wolfy to me. I've moved them up and down on my list a lot because I tend to fing aggro towny and they seem genuinely upset getting pushed or misunderstood, but at the same time they're not in my Vibe (which Benneh and Hally has been for a while and so was GH and Logic).

Anyway, I'm sorry if this is upsetting but

Vote: Dyachei

like come on now lol

[dyachei]

I kindly disagree Dya, because

- the state of your reads at EOD1 (u even replied to Ladd you and GH were the main "resistors" to Syn's wagon because you weren't seeing the things we were pointing at)
- again, there is no way you convince me Gemma had any chance to go over D1. (so the argument "I am not chopping a PR over a goon" isn't valid to me)
Gemma had a chance. Even gh was thinking about going her.

[dyachei]

I'm worried about vanta not as worried about ender. Worried about wisdom.

Hally concerns me though because her case is obviously biased. Just things to keep in mind because very few people are solving when I flip v and are hoping this ends the game (hint it doesn't)

[Arctic]

dya also tells people not to kill benneh EoD2 and stay the course on visor. probably their most pro-town moment of the game. the reason i’m not giving cred for it is because they were already town reading benneh and sussing visor, so while they say they could easily have reversed those reads and voted benneh, i think that’s just… not true and w!dya would know that doing so there would be outing. there’s just no way they get away with that, and if dya is a wolf they already knew by EoD2 that they were the one that had to carry so it’s far too much of a gamble when it was far from a guarantee they could get bennen to go over there.

I feel like the best way of handling that eod from wolf me or wolf dya would have been to just keep quietly voting visor but let the benneh elim happen when it seemed like things could have gone that way rather than actively fighting against it

Because I do think wolves would have wanted benneh to die there - we know logic and GH were V, and would have still probably been killed right after visor was, so the benneh elim just gets added on and suddenly wolves actually have a chance

I think some of the rest of your points are valid but they do not really convince me that it is dya. I guess my townread on them is more of a tone vs content thing, same as it was with Logic which ended up being correct. I agree there aren't great reasons to clear them. But I think there are actively better reasons to wolfread wisdom

[Arctic]

I'm back to defending Dya tbh. They have little interaction in early game but Dya's attempt to bring Gemma up as a wolf at the end of day 1 wasn't a great effort, but it isn't in line with what I know for Dya's wolf game. (Specifically bringing a 2nd wolf into a situation that has 1 wolf/1 town as lead wagons.)

yeah this is not really a thing wolves do imo
hally made the argument that it could have been done to make it more likely logic went over without having to vote him since they were repping a townread there (or at least sheeping GH's townread or something) but in my experience this doesn't actually happen

[Arctic]

Wisdom also doesn't really have interactions but... also never was really in thread at the same time usually so idk how to read that.

I could be offtrack.

Gemma interacted with wisdom in a similar way to all of her partners but only like once
Randomly said sup and "I pinged you in wolf chat" or something (which imo a wolf would not say about another villager since it'd risk spewing them v, and reads antispew to me) and spoke about something completely inconsequential like how wisdom should be townreading benneh more? and that was their only interaction

[Wisdom]

If anyone can check the flipped wolves' interactions with and reads on Dya that'd be nice

I might have time to tomorrow otherwise

[Hally]

Hally why are you like this
i ask my therapist that question all the time

[EnderWiggin]

I'm crashing now but I just wanted to add that Benneh being all "omg I have the same read!" with Zack still gives me the voting twitchies. :curtain:

[Hally]

I read it through though and I buy it.

Mostly because I don't really wolf read Vanta as much as I couldn’t see anyone else be possible wolf, I even town cased her earlier.

Hally's lock town btw! See, I didn't need to case you after all. Ender is as well. And I town read Benneh. Leaving Arctic/Dya/Vanta.

Something about Arctic that Hally didn't mention is how Dya doesn't really seem to care about their earlier hard wolf read on Arctic anymore. And yeah progression reads are dumb but I've gotten the vibe that they lock onto a train of thought for the moment without really weaving it into previous thoughts. I don't really know Dya's play enough to say it's wolfy for them though, but it vibes wolfy to me. I've moved them up and down on my list a lot because I tend to fing aggro towny and they seem genuinely upset getting pushed or misunderstood, but at the same time they're not in my Vibe (which Benneh and Hally has been for a while and so was GH and Logic).

Anyway, I'm sorry if this is upsetting but

Vote: Dyachei
ftr dya not still wolf reading arctic doesn’t concern me, he made himself an obvious villager after EoD2

also what does “in my Vibe” mean lol

[nebjiamn]

I'm crashing now but I just wanted to add that Benneh being all "omg I have the same read!" with Zack still gives me the voting twitchies. :curtain:
thats why i killed him

you're next

[Hally]

I'm not sure why it's wolfy I never said more than that gemmas entrance was wolfy because there wasn't a lot to read on d1 from Gemma
that’s… not at all what what i said?

i said you 1) never expressed a wolf read them, 2) voted them EoD1 without talking about them, 3) had them as null again D2 and 4) did not talk about wolf reading them at all even when arctic directly asked you if you wolf read them/why you voted them EoD, but today you said you did wolf read them but like… where?

[Wisdom]

ftr dya not still wolf reading arctic doesn’t concern me, he made himself an obvious villager after EoD2

also what does “in my Vibe” mean lol

I mean I saw EoD2 and agreed it was towny, but not clearing.

I'm pretty good at solving people through interactions with them, but since I find the intention/information through feelings rather than words and logic I find it hard to explain it, hence the vibes. Thing is, I have a lot of issues with trusting my vibes since part of my brain wants logic arguments, which has resulted in me ignoring correct vibes a lot of times. But they're way more accurate than rand, so I find it hard to push anyone I've had good vibes for.

I called you vibe town the first time you said you couldn’t understand me, and Ben vibe town when he interacted with me cuz he felt ignored.

I don't know if this makes sense, but it's an attempt to explain my brain.

[Raskolnikov]

I mean I saw EoD2 and agreed it was towny, but not clearing.

I'm pretty good at solving people through interactions with them, but since I find the intention/information through feelings rather than words and logic I find it hard to explain it, hence the vibes. Thing is, I have a lot of issues with trusting my vibes since part of my brain wants logic arguments, which has resulted in me ignoring correct vibes a lot of times. But they're way more accurate than rand, so I find it hard to push anyone I've had good vibes for.

I called you vibe town the first time you said you couldn’t understand me, and Ben vibe town when he interacted with me cuz he felt ignored.

I don't know if this makes sense, but it's an attempt to explain my brain.

You are intuitive, but not so much concise :bow:

[dyachei]

that’s… not at all what what i said?

i said you 1) never expressed a wolf read them, 2) voted them EoD1 without talking about them, 3) had them as null again D2 and 4) did not talk about wolf reading them at all even when arctic directly asked you if you wolf read them/why you voted them EoD, but today you said you did wolf read them but like… where?

I basically didn't go back to her when she pr softed. I feel like you're leaving that out and it still doesn't matter because I thought they were a better Elim than syn

[dyachei]

Do you always talk about every single read of yours when the person in question has barely posted?

[Hally]

Ngl bruv, feels like a stretch. Especially since:
1. Dya's earlier posts easily could cover a Murska vote (he hadn't claimed yet.)
yes he had, he claimed right before


2. If Dya wanted to bus and had "given up" on Syn then voting Syn would be better in terms of value.
i don’t really agree because i think wolves want logic to have a chance to go over and nobody has cared to give any cred to later syn voters, so it’s a pointless bus


3. Gemma is a PR they would want to keep around and there were several people that had talked about sussing/voting Gemma. Voting that and throwing it out like that has a lot more danger than some other options.
syn was a backup not a goon, so strictly from a role standpoint gemma going over does not matter because syn becomes the role cop

also again, the lunch was always going to be logic or syn. if dya had actually pushed for gemma to die over either of them i would agree with you but they didn’t at all, and then D2 they didn’t push them at all either before the soft (and people like me were wolf reading gemma D2 so it’s not like they weren’t getting talked about but dya had no reaction to it)

[dyachei]

Serious question though. I pointed out her weird entrance d1 and voted her. She was distinctly not towny

Even if syn had backed up Gemma it would have made less sense because he was doing even less than she was. It was always strictly better to go Gemma because in her nothingness she was trying and syn wasn't

Like why are we ignoring that syn was always going to be an elim

[Hally]

Hally how about i'll let you have 1 non-wisdom elim today

it's vanta or dya i assume

but after that, if the game doesn't end, unless you explain to me why wisdom is town outside of the nonsensical "they don't have a plan here as wolf" (none of the wolves did btw lmfao i mean look at syn, visor, and then the closest thing would be gemma rolling with a claim that was still gonna end up guaranteeing their death) then we're going to kill them

and this isn't even true anymore
look at their read on me
they tried pairing me with gemma, then after everyone says i'm town quickly forgot about it, and now after sheeping your case on dya i'm suddenly back in her poe again and you're not, a poe of 3 people, which is enough elims to win, and they can very easily get vanta killed afterwards so they have a clear path to f3
i’m ngl that wisdom post voting dya made me do a double take lmao

like they just drop dya into PoE just like that?? was my case actually that good

god i hate mafia

[Raskolnikov]

I have started reading Vanta's ISO in their most recent MU game and I'd like some people to do so too. Might be usefull (I haved to go pickup kids at a bd party so will finish later), they were VT there.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/search.php?searchid=20252793

[Raskolnikov]

i’m ngl that wisdom post voting dya made me do a double take lmao

like they just drop dya into PoE just like that?? was my case actually that good

god i hate mafia

tbh they did the same thing with Gemma yesterDay and it's part of the reason I am keeping them in my cute 3 people winning POE

[Hally]

I basically didn't go back to her when she pr softed. I feel like you're leaving that out and it still doesn't matter because I thought they were a better Elim than syn
they didn’t soft until like over halfway through D2 though, right?

all the stuff i’m talking about (you putting them at null, not talking about them, not saying you wolf read them when arctic asked, etc) came before gemma softed, it was early D2 stuff

[dyachei]

they didn’t soft until like over halfway through D2 though, right?

all the stuff i’m talking about (you putting them at null, not talking about them, not saying you wolf read them when arctic asked, etc) came before gemma softed, it was early D2 stuff

Yeah because they didn't happen d1 and were only.slightly wolfy. This was also when all of you guys were telling me how much my reads sucked.

I still wanted her dead but then gh dropped his logic shield and logic had been wolfier

It doesn't make me a wolf. If I were just doing it for cred I would have left her as a wolf

[Hally]

Do you always talk about every single read of yours when the person in question has barely posted?
if i wolf read them and other people directly ask me? yes

but anyway, the gemma stuff is even really why i wolf read you, it’s more about your treatment of logic/gh and others

[Hally]

Serious question though. I pointed out her weird entrance d1 and voted her. She was distinctly not towny

Even if syn had backed up Gemma it would have made less sense because he was doing even less than she was. It was always strictly better to go Gemma because in her nothingness she was trying and syn wasn't

Like why are we ignoring that syn was always going to be an elim
im not ignoring it ????

that’s literally why i don’t care that you vanity voted gemma

you’re not responding to what i actually said

[dyachei]

if i wolf read them and other people directly ask me? yes

but anyway, the gemma stuff is even really why i wolf read you, it’s more about your treatment of logic/gh and others

This is code for I wanna get you elimmed anyway and don't care about refutations.

Gh also defended syn but really it was the way he dropped his shield of logic that had me concerned. He wasn't doing a ton of solving that made sense at the time. It makes more sense now but hindsight is 20/20.

Logix I made clear I have a hard time reading and was depending on gh but when gh rescinded and Zack had been w read ng him it made logic seem more wolfy. That mixed with all the contradictions everyone pointed out made we think it was him

[dyachei]

im not ignoring it ????

that’s literally why i don’t care that you vanity voted gemma

you’re not responding to what i actually said

It. Was. Not. A. Vanity. Vote.

[Hally]

im not ignoring it ????

that’s literally why i don’t care that you vanity voted gemma

you’re not responding to what i actually said
oh i misread “an elim” as “the elim [as in D1],” mb

no i agree with you, wolves would want syn dead over gemma EoD1, i just don’t think gemma was ever going to happen and i don’t think you actually made an effort to make it happen besides a vanity vote

but again, this isn’t even why i wolf read you so i don’t want to keep going over it

[dyachei]

I mean that in this game syn was always going to die. He would never have made it as far as Gemma did even with a fake claim or soft like she did

So no it wasn't a vanity core especially since others were considering voting here

Honestly if you're town you're really disappointing me with your recollection of events

[Arctic]

can you guys save posts for later because im gonna make a case after i get back from the shops and i want ppl to be able to give thoughts

[Raskolnikov]

I don't like that I vibe with this. I also agree that gh/logic are both probably town and considering how the heat died on him after I/ladd (mostly ladd) protected him implies wolves are okay with the current gamestate anyway so pushing Logic isn't important right now.

Ergh did I just talk myself into thinking Visor could be town? I have told myself all game that he's going to come online in EoD and unyeet himself.

BAH


Vote:Benneh (I don't recall his name here soz)

Wisdom: Can you remind me the context of your switch off Visor to Benneh, rn it's totally unclear to me why you started townreading Visor (specifically when you had your very own reasons to sus him D1 and didn't seem to factor in Syn's flip and his treatment of the slot) and wolfreading Benneh.

[nebjiamn]

rather than wolf casing people could i get some perspectives from others on who they would towncase

you need 5 villagers to win the game, 4 if you count yourself but if you can get to 5+you then even better

preferably we'd hit the wolf today but i'm a little more interested in talking about who we think the last 2 clears are because i feel like towncasing is going to be more reliable/maybe more valuable if we yeet a player and they end up flipping v here. their wolf reads are gonna be a bit cloudy anyway

[Raskolnikov]

Gemma/Visor are two nice wagons imo.

I'm sad that I missed the party where it was fun to meme about GH being a wolf! I spent my morning reading that wall for nothing!


After reading everyone's posts with great detail I have confidently concluded that there are no wolves in this game

and these are posts that happened just before.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't like that I vibe with this. I also agree that gh/logic are both probably town and considering how the heat died on him after I/ladd (mostly ladd) protected him implies wolves are okay with the current gamestate anyway so pushing Logic isn't important right now.

Ergh did I just talk myself into thinking Visor could be town? I have told myself all game that he's going to come online in EoD and unyeet himself.

BAH


Gemma/Visor are two nice wagons imo.

I'm sad that I missed the party where it was fun to meme about GH being a wolf! I spent my morning reading that wall for nothing!


rather than wolf casing people could i get some perspectives from others on who they would towncase

you need 5 villagers to win the game, 4 if you count yourself but if you can get to 5+you then even better

preferably we'd hit the wolf today but i'm a little more interested in talking about who we think the last 2 clears are because i feel like towncasing is going to be more reliable/maybe more valuable if we yeet a player and they end up flipping v here. their wolf reads are gonna be a bit cloudy anyway

I've done it (the post just after my shitpost about Hally/Dya), maybe I'll take time to add more words but basically you/hally/Arctic/Ender is my villa core rn.

[dyachei]

I think ender is spewed clear from the wolves so I'm at arctic, benneh, rask, ender are villager and you can yeet the rest. Including me if you must but I'm still not a wolf

[nebjiamn]

alright

i hope you guys are right on ender

[nebjiamn]

dya fypov does hally need you out of the game to win?

i don't really know if she bothers to write that huge post about you as a wolf today ?

but maybe theres something to it fypov

[nebjiamn]

like arctic is pushing hard on wisdom and there are probably enough votes to shrugyeet vanta and hally is already deep enough in the towncore but not deep enough that itll be weird if she's alive in f3

it just feels like she really believes you are a wolf here and wants you out now because they're a villager with a read rather than a wolf who either needs you dead today or is setting you up ?for f3/5

[nebjiamn]

i realize its prob frustrating to be asked "why aren't you clearing the person tunneling you?" but i'd appreciate if you could flesh out your read on her

(also inb4 hally complains i called it a tunnel but ykwim)

[nebjiamn]

I think ender is spewed clear from the wolves so I'm at arctic, benneh, rask, ender are villager and you can yeet the rest. Including me if you must but I'm still not a wolf
also just to clarify, we cannot actually yeet the rest including you

we have 2 mislunches before a sleep/mylo so we can only kill 3 ppl, not 4

it feels like this will end in an abysmal f3 of like ender/vanta/hally or something but hopefully we win before that is an issue

[nebjiamn]

oh also ill just say that sleep may not actually be the right move at f4 if it gets there in case wolves were holstering some KP or have some late game conditional like the last 10er where cuth was holstering (like .0001% chance at this point but i still feel like pointing it out for discussion rather than us potentially sleepwalking into a loss)

i have to think we'd have seen it by now since this was a much larger game that has gone on much longer already but just in case.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom: Can you remind me the context of your switch off Visor to Benneh, rn it's totally unclear to me why you started townreading Visor (specifically when you had your very own reasons to sus him D1 and didn't seem to factor in Syn's flip and his treatment of the slot) and wolfreading Benneh.

It was quite a spur of the moment thing and a bit of me being a fool.

Earlier d2 I thought "Visor is afk because wolf!him knows he'll post his way out of getting yeeted in EoD, and despite that I kinda resonated with his posts. He went ham on Gemma and said he sussed Ben/Hally (who I also sussed a bit at the time) and I thought that if Visor is a wolf here he pushes Gemma to get a full claim and has a wolf mate in Benneh/Hally for distancing purposes, so I changed to Benneh to see how Visor would respond to that.

Then I was erased from time and space and didn't get to do anything with it. I didn't really plan to end on Benneh, I just wanted to see if Visor was fine with going there after sussing him.

Could be worth noting that at the time my switch from Visor to Benneh, I realized that I needed to bring a present to a party that I was already late to, so my mind wasn't really in the game even before I left thread.

[Wisdom]

Town core for me is [Ender/Rask -> Hally/Benneh] leaving a PoE of [Arctic/Dya/Vanta]

[nebjiamn]

Town core for me is [Ender/Rask -> Hally/Benneh] leaving a PoE of [Arctic/Dya/Vanta]
i would highly highly implore you to clear arctic over ender or hally in case you are v and i die tonight

he's much further out of his wolf meta than either of them imo

[Arctic]

I wrote half of what I wanted but then I hero'ed a turbo so I'll finish later

[dyachei]

i realize its prob frustrating to be asked "why aren't you clearing the person tunneling you?" but i'd appreciate if you could flesh out your read on her

(also inb4 hally complains i called it a tunnel but ykwim)

She's been gunning for me all game and I'm a need miselim. Just read her iso yourself. I can't clear her because she's been posting about her reads and then casually mentions me as a wolf like...all game. Idk that I have time to get the receipts for you though. I think there are enough people v reading me that she's worried she can't do it closer to end game especially if she kills people like rask who are willing to vote for me.

That's why I can't clear her. I think it's most likely vanta or wisdom though

[Vanta Black]

I'm worried about vanta not as worried about ender. Worried about wisdom.

Hally concerns me though because her case is obviously biased. Just things to keep in mind because very few people are solving when I flip v and are hoping this ends the game (hint it doesn't)

Don't worry about Vanta, just vote Wisdom.

[Wisdom]

i would highly highly implore you to clear arctic over ender or hally in case you are v and i die tonight

he's much further out of his wolf meta than either of them imo

Put him in the town pile then, hopefully it doesn't matter. Ender's still town tho!

[Wisdom]

Don't worry about Vanta, just vote Wisdom.

What's your plan after my flip?

[Vanta Black]

Really thought youse guys were gonna maj me after Hally got done, in my sleep. But since I'm here, my towncore is Rask, Hally, Arctic, Benneh. I'm not so sure about Ender, dyachie, wisdom. Did I leave anyone out? I feel like I left someone out.

Ender: doubts arise because so many of his posts have been jokey and a lot of them, well it sems like a lot, have been jokes about how he's all furry and stuff. I know the purpose of this kind of repartee is "okay haha I am saying I'm a wolf because obviously it is impossible that I'm a woof because as a woof I would never say this" but there were so many of these that it kind of piqued my interest. Meta-wise, it also seemed like Ender was less curious and not as pushy as the town player known to me as Bladescape. (Meta reads garbage reads though.)

I was focusing on Ender and Wisdom and not even thinking about Dya until Hally's wallpost, and then I went to sleep. Will look there now but note that I'm also flooping around 'cause it's Saturday.

[Vanta Black]

What's your plan after my flip?

Celebrate the win? Mourn the non-win?

[Vanta Black]

What's your plan after my flip?

Ah I should have asked this first, what is your plan after my flip?

[Wisdom]

Ah I should have asked this first, what is your plan after my flip?

Yeet Dya, since I believe the last wolf is in one of you two (hence why I'm voting Dya).

My point is that I'm not the wolf, and if you ain't either and I go first you'll need to prepare for that :3

[Vanta Black]

Yeet Dya, since I believe the last wolf is in one of you two (hence why I'm voting Dya).

My point is that I'm not the wolf, and if you ain't either and I go first you'll need to prepare for that :3

So your first response after my flip is yeet Dya, because you know my flip's not ending the game, got it.

[Vanta Black]

Here's where my head is: Hally's WP was very good, and left me believing Hally reallu believes it.

Wisdom's response to Hallly's WP was to immediately vote and I read into that vote "oh good a better suspect than Vanta."

[Vanta Black]

Gonna go make Eggs Benedict for brunch, y'all can maj me if you want, in fact I think you should, it will clear things up. I'm pretty confident about my POE but there's always the chance I have been bamboozled by one of my towncore.

[Raskolnikov]

It was quite a spur of the moment thing and a bit of me being a fool.

Earlier d2 I thought "Visor is afk because wolf!him knows he'll post his way out of getting yeeted in EoD, and despite that I kinda resonated with his posts. He went ham on Gemma and said he sussed Ben/Hally (who I also sussed a bit at the time) and I thought that if Visor is a wolf here he pushes Gemma to get a full claim and has a wolf mate in Benneh/Hally for distancing purposes, so I changed to Benneh to see how Visor would respond to that.

Then I was erased from time and space and didn't get to do anything with it. I didn't really plan to end on Benneh, I just wanted to see if Visor was fine with going there after sussing him.

Could be worth noting that at the time my switch from Visor to Benneh, I realized that I needed to bring a present to a party that I was already late to, so my mind wasn't really in the game even before I left thread.

Tx. Did you state itt your sus on Hally/Ben?

[dyachei]

Unvote

Vote: wisdom

Idk vanta seems pure rn and wisdoms immediate acceptance of hallys case was weird.

[Raskolnikov]

U know I am not sure I am buying Wisdom posts rn, like ok they wanna test Visor, but a villa who knows they have to dip would park on a real sus and not some momemtum push.

[Raskolnikov]

Also I agree Vantas been pure today which arggll gives me pause there too.

[Raskolnikov]

Fool on me tbh. Letsgo

Vote: Wisdom

[nebjiamn]

Vote: Wisdom

this is 4/L-1

@arctic maj if you want

[Raskolnikov]

Well tbh I just reread stuff D2, D3 I think I am not moving my vote anymore. Wis has been constantly trying to claim cred for jinks and they just feel like a wolf to me. Plus I wanna believe I just voted woofs each day this game (lolololme)

[Arctic]

I'm not maj'ing I'm still reading I'm about 3/4 through the game (looking at wisdom posts)

and Tbh I'm not actually any more confident than I was before

But I want to post my thoughts either way

[nebjiamn]

Well tbh I just reread stuff D2, D3 I think I am not moving my vote anymore. Wis has been constantly trying to claim cred for jinks and they just feel like a wolf to me. Plus I wanna believe I just voted woofs each day this game (lolololme)
ya im goin back and forth all day but i think vanta has been kinda villagery on tone today and i just ... dont think / dont want it to be dya so idt im gona go there

if its ender im blaming all of you but theres enough traction v reading him there that im fine to drop it

[nebjiamn]

I'm not maj'ing I'm still reading I'm about 3/4 through the game (looking at wisdom posts)

and Tbh I'm not actually any more confident than I was before

But I want to post my thoughts either way
can you at least do it before bedtime

[Arctic]

I’ll try to think a bit now, at least, and pray Gemma doesn’t just nk me


what did she mean by this
Wisdom

[Raskolnikov]

God I wanted a flip before sleeping but Arctic is prolly writing an essay that will make Hally's posts look like oneliners and Wis' prolly partying so I think I am gonna have a rum.

Barbancourt from Haïti, highly recommanded (kids, not for u, moderation etc etc)

[Arctic]

i'm gonna try to explain why i suspect wisdom is the wolf in more detail than i have previously but also in some kind of digestible format

i'll start with the way she's spoken about ther other wolves and why it's relevant. wisdom does struggle with TMI as a wolf and imo of everyone here, i'd consider her the most player to be the townsiding wolf that we know exists among our current playerlists (excepting ender, however I do think he's most likely clear from gemma). the game I brought up showed her townreading zero mafia and scumreading two of them as well as voting one early. this is not to say that she is a wolf for wolfreading wolves, just that if you consider her body of work on the surface it appears townsidey / only coming from a wolf struggling with TMI, but thinking about the pivotal moments in the game when things actually mattered, she wasn't advancing the town wincon

her reads on syn and visor easily fall into the w/w range because they focus on the way the slot is handling them (ladd w/warticle moment)


GH wolf reading me right off the bat is probably towny? I mean, it’s generally towny to wolf read me, especially if that's not a known habit (which Visor's read is).

Syn town reading me is also nai, I wrongly tunneled him for it last time and before that I correctly town read him for it. Again, when it's a habit it’s easier to fake, I have no read there.

Rask going hard on Syn looks good, town point for Rask.

Ladd seeming a bit lost is honestly a good look for him, another town point there. Not really sure why I initially got pinged by him.


GH wolf reading me right off the bat is probably towny? I mean, it’s generally towny to wolf read me, especially if that's not a known habit (which Visor's read is).

Syn town reading me is also nai, I wrongly tunneled him for it last time and before that I correctly town read him for it. Again, when it's a habit it’s easier to fake, I have no read there.

Rask going hard on Syn looks good, town point for Rask.

Ladd seeming a bit lost is honestly a good look for him, another town point there. Not really sure why I initially got pinged by him.

in the first post there's also the issue of townreading syn for hardpushing rask which reads as TMI to me (pushing wolves = good, which doesn't really track of wisdom's read on syn being null) but she has explained that she simply townread the aggression from rask so you can consider this null if you want but it still exists

and dya has already pointed out that the way visor spoke about syn - deferring reads on them to ladd/rask or asking someone else to read them - is similar to how he handled wisdom:


Ladd, raskol, talk to me about syn sil vous plait per favour


I have had the same thought process about wisdoms posts.... And misread them like 3 games in a row lol

Someone else can figure them out lol



tbh i am getting some kind of doubts because she has posted town lists where if she's the wolf they were 100% pure and this was like on day 2 but i've seen her do this as wolf so weh.. and when push came to shove she was trying to kill benneh over visor at eod2

also.. this


Gemma/Visor are two nice wagons imo.

I'm sad that I missed the party where it was fun to meme about GH being a wolf! I spent my morning reading that wall for nothing!

but then this next one just feels like TMI again:


If Visor is a wolf here then pushing Gemma is really the best course of action.

If Gemma is wolf then Visor is confident that he will go over her anyway so it's great distancing. If Gemma is town it pretty much forces her to hard claim which mostly just benefits wolves.

and so does this:


If Gemma is a wolf here then it makes sense for wolves to save the Murska kill until later, else it's going to look weird if Gemma is alive.
But yeah Jan being rolecopped feels more likely at this point.

like.. is this why wolves weren't killing murska lmao?


uhh there's the whole fiasco with how wisdom voted benneh over visor at eod and this has been talked about like thirty times so i don't think i'm gonna bother but i will briefly state that her claim of "testing visor" does not correlate with what she was actually doing at the time, which was deciding that visor was town and giving him a chance by killing benneh, before disappearing at eod

anyway moving on, there's the way gemma spoke about wisdom too - gemma felt a need to interact with her partners for some reason, she did this both with syn and visor, and her only mentions of wisdom are in a similar vein/equally superficial


sup wisdom

i pinged you in wolfchat pls respond


wisdom i think u should be v reading benneh more than u are

this is somewhat dependent on logic's flip but benneh was pushing visor/logic worlds throughout the game and day 2 never meaningfully entertained a logic yeet over visor.
a) this is a good look because visor was a wolf
b) this is a good look because visor is imo last preference bus on most wolf teams + you can shove onto logic there p easily to win time for visor to come back and pocket everyone
c) pushing that way without really hedging towards logic or anyone else (correct me if my memory of d2 is wrong here) or leaving yourself outs only ever makes sense in a world where benneh planned to take it all the way to f3 which is an insane thing to do on day 2 when you could just not bus the wolf, yes visor's thread position was terrible but again, its visor, everyone w read logic u just yeet logic
c part 2) if logic v then ig you bus more often because the shoving on logic to buy time angle makes you look bad (but then benneh just looks good for pushing wolf instead of villager)
d) now that i'm bringing this up i dont' understand why visor wouldnt have bussed logic for cred eod2 this is unrelated to benneh, wasnt he a viable wagon at that point
e) great now i've confused myself

i guess the next issue is how wisdom handled days 3 and 4, she was repping townreads on both logic and GH, the GH read was a little more nebulous and people were requesting to hammer so idc about this as much, but i feel like the natural progression there for a villager who was right on one of the consensus wolf slots flipping v to have a little more paranoia or concern on the next day, but wisdom was still perfectly happy to let logic die on day 4 instead of looking elsewhere despite giving actual decent reasons to townread him on day 2 (i think). i don't want to lamist but i could contrast this with how i was trying to kill wisdom on day 4 because i really didn't think logic was flipping wolf after his latest posts especially, but it felt like wisdom let the flips happen while being on the right side of history if you will, such that she could make a point of her townreading them

the way she handled gemma yesterday doesn't make much sense at all (pending her response to what i asked - if that post implied she was lock on gemma being a wolf then things are a bit more reasonable but then i question why she would have been so sure on it in the first place)

but she pretty much went from having no thoughts about her in her entry wallpost (noting gemma as a "still left to case" and then said this:


Gemma wolf?
Nice, seems plausible!
Could be worth looking into who pushed her first after the soft claim, that would very unlikely be a wolf mate.

Gemma first ofc

as though gemma was confirmed to be mafia, following the discussion in the thread at the time which seemed like everyone was gonna be piling on gemma because her claim wasn't believable at that point. she spends the rest of the day preflipping me and vanta with gemma and that's pretty much it

which kinda segues into my next issue with wisdom which is the way she's been handling my slot - particularly over the last two days, she quoted one or two things at a micro level to say i was towny but only took me out of her poe at the start of today after people were saying i clearly wasn't with gemma, and then all of a sudden after agreeing with hally's case on dya i'm apparently back in her poe again (after she previously held the stance of "if it's not vanta then idk who it is so gl"


Yeah Arctic's likely towning here.
Ender lock v.
Rask and dya and Benneh are probably also v.
I still don't have anything conclusive on Hally, if she wanna town case them that'd be great!

this was her worldview at the start of sod and it seems to have been flipped because of the post hally made which had nothing to do with me pretty much lol

i guess the main thing going for her here is that she'd probably want to elim vanta over dya because dya was townreading her and vanta wants her dead. but i guess it's a question of whether she'd want to keep around the easier elim or the one that makes her get less votes the next day

i dunno i'm not actually confident on all of this but the general impression i get is of a wolf TMI'ing the entire lobby. if she's actually v this kind of sucks because she's had really great reads but just handled them in a pro-wolf way and did nothing to save her townreads

there's not really something specific i can point to about this but i also want to nte that i have had no idea why she's been so confidently townreading the ender this entire game, i think it might have been for his eod posts or meta or osmething but it also feels strange

[Arctic]

dya fypov does hally need you out of the game to win?

i don't really know if she bothers to write that huge post about you as a wolf today ?

but maybe theres something to it fypov

I think it makes sense for hally to want to get dya out here first if she's mafia because dya is the most openly critical person of hally, vanta is the consensus yeet slot, and i'm kinda tunneled on wisdom

they might not go that hard but it's definitely the preferable elim for w!hally

[Raskolnikov]

Good post Arctic, it sums up pretty much what have been through my head the last 2 hours smh. gj

[Wisdom]

Here's where my head is: Hally's WP was very good, and left me believing Hally reallu believes it.

Wisdom's response to Hallly's WP was to immediately vote and I read into that vote "oh good a better suspect than Vanta."

I mean, yeah, I did town case you D5. I just think you've been *less* towny than everyone else, save Dya. I liked Hally's case, if they're right why shouldn't I listen to them?

[Vanta Black]

I think it makes sense for hally to want to get dya out here first if she's mafia because dya is the most openly critical person of hally, vanta is the consensus yeet slot, and i'm kinda tunneled on wisdom

they might not go that hard but it's definitely the preferable elim for w!hally

I think if Hally is wolfing she'd go for the one who already had 3 votes. Which I think I had at the time. I dunno, she said it took her five hours so maybe I didn't have 3 votes but I believe her conviction.

[Wisdom]

Sorry, I'm going to bed now but if you hammer me at least read through my reasoning behind why Ender is town and not w/w with Gemma!

[Arctic]

I mean, yeah, I did town case you D5. I just think you've been *less* towny than everyone else, save Dya. I liked Hally's case, if they're right why shouldn't I listen to them?

can you please explain every thought you have on my slot and also respond to my ping

[Wisdom]

Kinda tempting to self hammer and not have the responsibility of this game's outcome x) I feel bad enough from not defending gh/logic harder.

[Wisdom]

what did she mean by this
Wisdom

If Gemma was the actual vig she probably should have shot me that night, considering I was accused of all sorts of stuff d4

[Wisdom]

can you please explain every thought you have on my slot and also respond to my ping

I'm in bed and on phone, so no, I won't wall (or read your wall, sorry for making you waste your time tho).

I thought you were sus d1, I thought EoD2 looked good for you, I later tinfoiled that I read that wrongly since it's not how I usually see your meta. I've come to realize that this silly tunnel of you most likely is clearing you but that's a bit late and everyone is already town reading you anyway.

[Wisdom]

I mean, if the main argument for me dying today is that my reads have been to good (despite all the flip flops lol)

I can live with that

[Wisdom]

Ender lock v
Rask lock v
Arctic likely v
Hally likely v
Benneh likely v

Leaves Dya/Vanta. I cased why Vanta/Gemma was likely w/w before Gemma even flipped. Hally cased Dya. Hopefully at least one of us is right.

[Wisdom]

It's sad that this bronana tunnel from rask is identical as the time where he mizzled me d1 (last game?), sad that his stubbornness makes him townier. No hard feelings though <3

[nebjiamn]

God I wanted a flip before sleeping but Arctic is prolly writing an essay that will make Hally's posts look like oneliners and Wis' prolly partying so I think I am gonna have a rum.

Barbancourt from Haïti, highly recommanded (kids, not for u, moderation etc etc)
idl rum

tequila for me

[Wisdom]

Ladd and Jan are screaming from dvc, I can hear it :3

[Raskolnikov]

It's sad that this bronana tunnel from rask is identical as the time where he mizzled me d1 (last game?), sad that his stubbornness makes him townier. No hard feelings though <3

stfu, I feel bad enough already lol (I think there was another game in-between but I am getting tired too, memory may be failing me. <3 Wis)

[Wisdom]

Vote: Vanta

Her approach to me today has been really stiff, in addition that she and Gemma pretty much ignored each other before eyes turned to them. And if I'm going to die anyway I'd rather end up where my own process took me, even though Hally's case was good. I suppose I can have a bit of pride even if I get mizzled!

[Wisdom]

stfu, I feel bad enough already lol (I think there was another game in-between but I am getting tired too, memory may be failing me. <3 Wis)

I'm not forcing you to vote me you know ^^' I could probably make use of the remaining 16 hours, even if I still die in the end.

[Raskolnikov]

idl rum

tequila for me

U didn't test quality ones :curtain: I am not talking about the s!%? you mix with softs. I fancy a good tequila too though cheers

[Wisdom]

U didn't test quality ones :curtain: I am not talking about the s!%? you mix with softs. I fancy a good tequila too though cheers

Both is good!
~Most spirits are good!

[Hally]

This is code for I wanna get you elimmed anyway and don't care about refutations.

Gh also defended syn but really it was the way he dropped his shield of logic that had me concerned. He wasn't doing a ton of solving that made sense at the time. It makes more sense now but hindsight is 20/20.

Logix I made clear I have a hard time reading and was depending on gh but when gh rescinded and Zack had been w read ng him it made logic seem more wolfy. That mixed with all the contradictions everyone pointed out made we think it was him
i don’t think this actually fits with what happened itt?

wdym “the way gh dropped his shield”? if you mean the way he initially began shielding logic, you had like zero concern about it D1 when me/benneh/zack were practically begging you to be more skeptical. if you mean when gh said he wasn’t shielding logic anymore, that happened late D2 but you had already been wolf reading gh and had logic as your top wolf for the entire day up to that point, so idgi


rather than wolf casing people could i get some perspectives from others on who they would towncase

you need 5 villagers to win the game, 4 if you count yourself but if you can get to 5+you then even better

preferably we'd hit the wolf today but i'm a little more interested in talking about who we think the last 2 clears are because i feel like towncasing is going to be more reliable/maybe more valuable if we yeet a player and they end up flipping v here. their wolf reads are gonna be a bit cloudy anyway
well the first 4 villagers are easy fmpov: me/rask/arctic/you. ender would be my fifth


Town core for me is [Ender/Rask -> Hally/Benneh] leaving a PoE of [Arctic/Dya/Vanta]
Wisdom why are you not sold on arctic? i don’t understand. he voted syn, he pushed visor and made sure he died, he wolf read gemma D1/D2. what else do you need?


alright

i hope you guys are right on ender
you don’t think the gemma spew read is valid? why?


She's been gunning for me all game and I'm a need miselim. Just read her iso yourself. I can't clear her because she's been posting about her reads and then casually mentions me as a wolf like...all game. Idk that I have time to get the receipts for you though. I think there are enough people v reading me that she's worried she can't do it closer to end game especially if she kills people like rask who are willing to vote for me.

That's why I can't clear her. I think it's most likely vanta or wisdom though
okay i’m sorry, i really don’t want to keep getting into these back and forths but i cannot let you do this revisionist history

i have not been gunning for you all game. D1 i had a mixed read on you that was really no more than a lean either way at different points. D2/D3 i basically wrote you off as town because i thought logic and gh were wolves and you clearly were not teamed with them. D4 i started getting concerned by your ender and wisdom reads but it was like a few posts. i have not been gunning for you at any point until today, let alone “all game.” i have not been casually mentioning you as a wolf all game. AT BEST i did D4/D5/today but i don’t even think i did D4, i just put you back in my PoE. your characterization of my treatment of you is genuinely absurd

also, “I think there are enough people v reading me that she's worried she can't do it closer to end game especially if she kills people like rask who are willing to vote for me” what? rask was town reading you until i dropped my wall

[Arctic]

well i dont really mind if someone hammers now, im gonna go look at some vanta scumgames in the mean time because that link rask posted didn't even work

[Raskolnikov]

well i dont really mind if someone hammers now, im gonna go look at some vanta scumgames in the mean time because that link rask posted didn't even work

town game https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/43675-Fakeclaim-15er-Test-Game

scum game https://www.giraffeboards.com/showthread.php?t=60126

[Arctic]

ok apparently they dont have any scumgames and i dont know how useful reading just towngames is going to be

[Wisdom]

When Arctic pushed Visor it was already clear Visor was going to die (from my pov at least).

Doesn't matter, I don't have Arctic in my PoE anymore anyway! He's likely town and I've been a bit silly ^^ But I mean, half the player list thinks I'm the last wolf so I guess we're all a bit silly :3

[nebjiamn]

you don’t think the gemma spew read is valid? why?



maybe it is, but im just concerned about clearing ender if its not in what everyojne basically deems the given poe of wis/vanta/dya

reading ender v for spew on day 7 or 8 seems like a dumb idea when his content hasn't been very villagery fmpov

its mostly just me struggling to find my 5th villager and worrying about the game state and people just shrugging off any investigation on him because of a read gemma made to open the game

[Hally]

I think it makes sense for hally to want to get dya out here first if she's mafia because dya is the most openly critical person of hally, vanta is the consensus yeet slot, and i'm kinda tunneled on wisdom

they might not go that hard but it's definitely the preferable elim for w!hally
the only reason dya has been critical of me is because i stopped town reading them lol

also you can believe this or not idc but there’s literally nobody i would rather push less if i was a wolf than dya. i would rather try my luck pushing ender or really like anything besides dya for what i hope are obvious reasons


still digesting it but good wall tbh

[Raskolnikov]

https://i.imgur.com/vms7Fmv_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand

guys i found him!

btw Hally, you got it hella wrong. This is Visor during the whole D2:

https://gifdb.com/images/high/family-guy-kangaroo-carry-gk5g8jh1gb257j9m.gif

[Hally]

i’m just going to point out that when dya iso’d wisdom earlier today they said they were convinced wisdom was a villager and now they’re voting wisdom lol

though tbh, i think from v!dya’s pov, they probably should think it’s wisdom from how fast wisdom was to drop dya so idk

[Wisdom]

I always find it weird that players tend to get suspected for listening to/sheeping others. It's a team game y'all!

With that I bid you a good night <3

[Hally]

maybe it is, but im just concerned about clearing ender if its not in what everyojne basically deems the given poe of wis/vanta/dya

reading ender v for spew on day 7 or 8 seems like a dumb idea when his content hasn't been very villagery fmpov

its mostly just me struggling to find my 5th villager and worrying about the game state and people just shrugging off any investigation on him because of a read gemma made to open the game
that’s… fair lol

tbh i’m usually pretty hesitant to put stock into spew especially late game and i think a lot of spew reads people make basically amount to reading tea leaves, but i do think some spew reads are usually reliable and “wolf town reads someone nobody else town reads D1 for thin reasoning = TMI” is one of them

ymmv though

[Raskolnikov]

gn Wis. gl us

[Hally]

idk what to do

i really want to know if i’m right on dya but ig it’s not happening and i’m not sure how i can make it clearer for people? like, their explanations for the stuff i raised just… don’t make any sense or fit with the actual sequence of events itt. i also feel like they’re treating my suspicion on them super disingenuously? the way they are interacting with it makes it sound like i’ve been blindly tunneling them the whole game when that’s not true at all. also i feel like they should know i wouldn’t push them like this as a wolf? iirc when i wolfed against them in the past i would try to pocket them/avoid pushing them because i was scared to draw their attention. and i feel like it should be obvious i clearly believe my read and that it’s coming from a place of genuine investigation but maybe it’s asking too much of them to view it that way

but my main reason for not wanting wisdom was that it didn’t feel like she was leaving options open enough to have a path to win as wolf and that’s kind of negated by her immediately going for dya today as soon as i cased them. also arctic’s point that her wolf meta is to be TMIy definitely fits with how she’s played this game and i think that the overall point of her having good reads but not seeming to act on them in a way that actually moved the game in a pro-town direction is def valid

wolfy hedge

[nebjiamn]

Just maj her and if wrong you get dya tomorrow

[Hally]

i don’t know if this is relevant or not but benneh made a post speculating about the last wolf role having some kind of KP or something, and i do think the last wolf role is probably pretty good just based on what’s flipped so far

for wolves we have had syn the backup, visor’s role which only matters if he gets lunched and even then is only a one shot strongman, and gemma the rolecop. i would be surprised given syn was a backup if his role was basically just to backup the rolecop? so i think the last wolf is definitely not just a goon

and looking at town PR’s, jan was like a combo watcher/tracker which seems quite good. ladd was either an IC that dies at EoD if they reveal ir a tree stump that lives for a day if they get nightkilled, which is okay but i guess depends on who rands it. and then murska was a passively self-protecting bodyguard, which is kind of insane lol.

so i would guess the last wolf role is actually quite strong? which could influence their willingness to bus or how the other wolves interacted with them depending on exactly what the role is

something to keep in mind ig

[Vanta Black]

i don’t know if this is relevant or not but benneh made a post speculating about the last wolf role having some kind of KP or something, and i do think the last wolf role is probably pretty good just based on what’s flipped so far

for wolves we have had syn the backup, visor’s role which only matters if he gets lunched and even then is only a one shot strongman, and gemma the rolecop. i would be surprised given syn was a backup if his role was basically just to backup the rolecop? so i think the last wolf is definitely not just a goon

and looking at town PR’s, jan was like a combo watcher/tracker which seems quite good. ladd was either an IC that dies at EoD if they reveal ir a tree stump that lives for a day if they get nightkilled, which is okay but i guess depends on who rands it. and then murska was a passively self-protecting bodyguard, which is kind of insane lol.

so i would guess the last wolf role is actually quite strong? which could influence their willingness to bus or how the other wolves interacted with them depending on exactly what the role is

something to keep in mind ig

Well yeah, but this isn't something we're gonna know if we're not the last wolf. I mean the only way we find out is to get 'em. If the concern is if the lasts woofie is some kind of KP bomb then idk, I'm willing to unvote and let the votes shuffle and then revote.

[Hally]

if people wanna maj i’m fine with it, i only have like two posts left anyway and seems like everyone made up their minds
Arctic you can have the honor of hammering

[Vanta Black]

I don't think it's relevant though really, I mean, this is the last wolf, once they're gone we win.

(Full disclsoure, I took a muscle relaxer, I might not be thinking straight.)

[Hally]

Well yeah, but this isn't something we're gonna know if we're not the last wolf. I mean the only way we find out is to get 'em. If the concern is if the lasts woofie is some kind of KP bomb then idk, I'm willing to unvote and let the votes shuffle and then revote.
yeah it’s mostly pointless speculation

only time i think it actually becomes relevant is in F4 if it’s extra KP and sleeping loses the game but we can worry about that if we get there

[Arctic]

ok bye

vote: Wisdom

i think if this is a miss the consensus is to go dya/vanta in some order but like i dunno it feels wrong. i think i would consider ender in f3 more than hally, because as i was skimming the rest of the game i think hally must have been playing this game absurdly well to be mafia posting with a team getting boxed in like that

i guess we're always losing to benneh/rask and we won't have the nightkills to be able to find them from being still alive if it is one of them, in which case uhhh. i dunno i don't think there's much we could have done there

anyway glgl

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1211097968351121499/EOD6.png?ex=65ecf5e0&is=65da80e0&hm=69cb936b6b99aeb051339a6edea2822e4fbdac7755ddd66717320f441d4d70e6&


If we're talking neat then Whiskey > Rhum > Tequila

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think it's relevant though really, I mean, this is the last wolf, once they're gone we win.

(Full disclsoure, I took a muscle relaxer, I might not be thinking straight.)

Hally is hinting at the fact (Benneh did earlier) sleeping D8 after two MLs might not be the best idea. Hopefully we won't get there (and I won't be here to cry if that's the case lol)

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207303805461463080/Final_Vote_Count.png?ex=65df2849&is=65ccb349&hm=0aa0fafc7bfdb8f3accac13ec8d1a610a355c5db905f60d16b663ba90c2f9f4f&



Final Vote Count

Wisdom (5) : Vanta, Dyachei, Raskolnikov, Benneh, Arctic
Vanta (1) : Wisdom

Haven't voted: Ender, Hally


Vote History

If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:


Vote: Vanta Black
vote: vanta black
Vote: Vanta
Vote: Dyachei
Vote: unvote
##vote Wisdom
unvote
Vote: Dya
Vote: vanta

Vote: wisdom
Vote: Wisdom
Vote: Wisdom
Vote: Vanta
vote: Wisdom



Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1211106429042171914/image.png?ex=65ecfdc1&is=65da88c1&hm=7ea4d3b8f4ddc26dba823aae29616324b2427f29088843c9f2fede8cadb4edeb&

EoD5 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1210767431283515463/EoD5_Post_Counts.png?ex=65ebc20a&is=65d94d0a&hm=25e1741aa9284e755ae20a4c107d5ba522a035cdb0a2104b1ca2513c7be66a0e&


I will accept this early hammer as a birthday present of extra sleep!

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1211262943421927454/Wisdom2.png?ex=65ed8f85&is=65db1a85&hm=e0583bf62dfb2721195db15d06780bf01b6e5934754e49c32d5120f4f657ce8f&


Sankta Klokhet was a blacksmith of phenomenal skill who was tasked by the Hierophant with creating a suit of armour that would keep her safe during the upcoming battle defending her temple from an army of demons. Santa Klokhet forged unwavering for five days and nights, reciting the tenets of her faith. On the sixth day she laid the final hand on her creation and collapsed from exhaustion. The suit was dull, and had an oily sheen to it, and the Hierophant noticed that it seemed to predict her movements and amplify her swings as she strode into battle. She and the other priestesses fought bravely, but the demons kept coming, and for the longest time the battle seemed undecided, but of course the humans' strength must run out eventually. After five hours of brutal battle, Sankta Klokhet finally came to, rushed up the steps to the bell tower, and rung the tenor bell. The armour she had created reverberated with the sound and dazzled the demons with a bright holy light, allowing the clerics to overpower them at last.



Wisdom was a Town Saint (VT)

Remember your night actions!

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1208135634313682964/Benneh.png?ex=65eb697d&is=65d8f47d&hm=c53e6e5445ac79683b1c8e22a9d44012216cbc7f31faf5eacb04ec881ebe089d&


Saint Turbean was one of the great orators of his time. When he spoke, all listened, and his advice never went unheeded. Then, his area was hit with droughts and successive crop failures, and starvation threatened. Saint Turbean prayed to the Gods of the Harvest, promising to give up all he had to save his people, and pleaded so ardently that they could not but take pity. From that day on, fields miraculously grew without needing to be tended, and Saint Turbean held his tongue. Whenever one of his fellow villagers asked him for his opinion, he would devoutly bow his head and keep quiet. None understood the purpose of his silence, and in time his former influence was quite forgotten, but he knew and was content.



Benneh was a Town Saint (VT)

You will no longer surprise me, I have flavour for all of you muahahaha!

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1211311416779210752/SOD7.png?ex=65edbcaa&is=65db47aa&hm=6555aa2c20d2c221667b03bb5443dbd113b373834f155d0bc9ff5c77b5c4a811&


Living Players: Vanta, Dyachei, Raskolnikov, Ender, Hally, Arctic (6)

[dyachei]

I've been thinking about it and I don't want to end up in f3 so if you're concerned about me you should probably vote me out now

[Raskolnikov]

https://gifdb.com/images/high/i-am-a-potato-ipejt88wevplyr40.gif

Sorry Wis, RIP Benneh.

Vote: Vanta

[Raskolnikov]

I've been thinking about it and I don't want to end up in f3 so if you're concerned about me you should probably vote me out now

Well, I'd rather be with you in F3 than Vanta, alea jacta est.

[Raskolnikov]

I am ready to unvote and assess all slot (prolly not immediatly, but in the next 12 hours). It's just Vanta has been POEed for a long time now and I am prolly not making my mind on her slot so I'd rather chop her now than cry l8r (been there already smh)

actually, unvote still more reasonable

[Arctic]

I don't know how stupid I should feel for writing a wolfcase on a villager who was already put at L-1 before I even did anything and then hammering them right after

...i will claim less responsibility than i originally intended

uhm
well now that my only wolfread is dead I can probably think about this game a bit more clearly, so I'm gonna iso everyone except rask

I think ender kind of needs to be in the conversation again but this is less because I actively think it's him but more because I think we could be overlooking him given well *gestures towards his contributions the past 4 day phases* . and benneh was a lot more critical of him than me and rask were iirc so that's something to keep in mind

[Vanta Black]

vote: Ender

[Vanta Black]

Yeah, I am pretty much guaranteed to fuck up in f3, so yeah, I could be on a Vote Vanta campaign. No self vote at this point but if I get to 3 ....

But meanwhile, I did overnight homework to the tune of trying to figure out why everybody who was here was still here. And then trying to guess who the NK would be. And then making a little chart to the effect of "if the NK is XXX, then vote YYY."

I don't know why I was all cagey with the XXs and YYs there, "If the NK is Benneh, vote Ender." Some of them were reciprocal (if dya vote Hally, but I thought that pretty unlikely).

If last woof is Rask or Arctic that is very high levels of method acting (particularly Arctic) and I tip my hat to your artful and sustained deception.

There's no way to prove this but I did think Benneh was most likely NK.

[Hally]

vote: dya

today is my day

[Hally]

I don't know how stupid I should feel for writing a wolfcase on a villager who was already put at L-1 before I even did anything and then hammering them right after
average arctic town game

[Hally]

i challenge anyone who wants to lunch vanta to explain to me why they’re a wolf and why those reasons are better than the case i laid out for dya

[Vanta Black]

i challenge anyone who wants to lunch vanta to explain to me why they’re a wolf and why those reasons are better than the case i laid out for dya

What do you think if dya's opening post?

[Vanta Black]

*OF* dya's opening post

[Hally]

What do you think if dya's opening post?
i don’t care about it

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah, I am pretty much guaranteed to fuck up in f3, so yeah, I could be on a Vote Vanta campaign. No self vote at this point but if I get to 3 ....

But meanwhile, I did overnight homework to the tune of trying to figure out why everybody who was here was still here. And then trying to guess who the NK would be. And then making a little chart to the effect of "if the NK is XXX, then vote YYY."

I don't know why I was all cagey with the XXs and YYs there, "If the NK is Benneh, vote Ender." Some of them were reciprocal (if dya vote Hally, but I thought that pretty unlikely).

If last woof is Rask or Arctic that is very high levels of method acting (particularly Arctic) and I tip my hat to your artful and sustained deception.

There's no way to prove this but I did think Benneh was most likely NK.

Can you explain why Benneh being the NK poonts to Ender for you pls?

[Raskolnikov]

Also, its time for this:

DONT MAJ PLS!

I WANT TO HAVE THE TIME

(Seriously Ill do work tmr, needed time off this game to get a refreshed mind)

[Raskolnikov]

i challenge anyone who wants to lunch vanta to explain to me why they’re a wolf and why those reasons are better than the case i laid out for dya

Good thing we dont need your vote to lunch her :curtain:

(What I want to say fr is that today we review everybody, including myself, we do not sleep walk into a shrug yeet, hope it makes sense. Pls and tu)

[Vanta Black]

Can you explain why Benneh being the NK poonts to Ender for you pls?

Will attempt to show my work

Unvote

[EnderWiggin]

I think ender kind of needs to be in the conversation again but this is less because I actively think it's him but more because I think we could be overlooking him given well *gestures towards his contributions the past 4 day phases* . and benneh was a lot more critical of him than me and rask were iirc so that's something to keep in mind

You know I stopped playing when busy at MU because "contributions" were thrown around as a reason to scumread someone.

If you want me to explain something, ask me questions instead of vaguely shading my ability to do things.

Also like, at least one of those 4 days I literally was up at 1am to make some silly posts at SOD and then it was hammered by the time lunch came around.

But I'm pretty sure I'm one of the fewer people to actually put some effort into associatives for the wolves. I'm completely okay with you sussing me for it because you disagree with my content.

But don't act like I've contributed nothing because you haven't read my posts.

[EnderWiggin]

Sorry that may have come out over-hostile. I've done that a few times this game. ><

I personally have Vanta at the top of my scumreads rn because there's an awkward interaction with Gemma that fits the pattern of w/w interaction this game, but that's hardly a slam dunk

I townread Dya for the several things including interaction that I mentioned yesterday. (I think Arctic agreed with me? Or someone did.)

I need to reread Hally's post and actually reply to it so she doesn't think I'm ignoring her case because I disagree with it.
I will also add that Dya is a read I'm very unsure of for reasons Dya can tell people as well.

[EnderWiggin]

I have some stupid defenses but honestly if you want my best reason I'm not a wolf:
Go read Gemma's first posts about me and then read Syn's posts about me.

On D1.

Then check the limp wristed way they fangled around each other/Visor.

If you really think that wolves acted so light-touch around each other and just decided to drop big scum/town reads on me specifically on D1 then idk what to tell you other than "enjoy me flipping green."

[Hally]

Sorry that may have come out over-hostile. I've done that a few times this game. ><

I personally have Vanta at the top of my scumreads rn because there's an awkward interaction with Gemma that fits the pattern of w/w interaction this game, but that's hardly a slam dunk

I townread Dya for the several things including interaction that I mentioned yesterday. (I think Arctic agreed with me? Or someone did.)

I need to reread Hally's post and actually reply to it so she doesn't think I'm ignoring her case because I disagree with it.
I will also add that Dya is a read I'm very unsure of for reasons Dya can tell people as well.
do you have any reason why vanta is a wolf based on posting or is it just the interaction stuff with gemma?

i think it’s pretty dubious to assume that a wolf will interact with all their teammates the exact same way and won’t also interact with some villagers like that, so i don’t really get why you’re using that as the main basis for your solve

[dyachei]

saw hally question how I could have voted wisdom and like...I thought everyone else was townier and that i had given her too much credit after arctic's case. Idk anymore.

[EnderWiggin]

do you have any reason why vanta is a wolf based on posting or is it just the interaction stuff with gemma?

i think it’s pretty dubious to assume that a wolf will interact with all their teammates the exact same way and won’t also interact with some villagers like that, so i don’t really get why you’re using that as the main basis for your solve

The other two people Gemma interacted with in exactly that way are Visor and Syn.

There's no one else that they did that to.

It's not a slam dunk but it's a direction and I've felt mildly directionless.

There is also the whole way they approached solving and the whole "Benneh = Ender gg" post to explain their vote on me today.

[EnderWiggin]

Ftr I *will* be trying to come up with a more comprehensive read of things but I just don't have the time to do full blown cases so you'll have to settle with what I throw together.

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207851955247128616/12hr_Vote_Count.png?ex=65e126ca&is=65ceb1ca&hm=232747bbd3969ba5b75000f7ca1aa0374f8f9e834134be6c8307c1e15979905d&

https://31.media.tumblr.com/0246041a81d5b201eff206495a3f18bd/tumblr_mrk1paCh7y1qjo8npo2_500.gif

Not so sure I trust you with it, Rask. You're only the discount, after all.


Vote Count

Dyachei (1) : Hally

Not voting: Raskolnikov, Vanta
Haven't voted: Arctic, Ender, Dyachei


Vote History

If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:


Vote: Vanta
unvote
vote: Ender
vote: dya
Unvote




Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1211491648404455446/image.png?ex=65ee6485&is=65dbef85&hm=c62422d1648b1ec9a4535ac8c0e5bcaf1d0d607baf14df6f96b37fb01a491176&

EoD6 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1211455480686452746/EoD6_Post_Counts.png?ex=65ee42d6&is=65dbcdd6&hm=b299724b01bb40e189b7ecc68197d4caf39f828f1d5994c981b332988cacce3c&


See you all tomorrow!

[Hally]

Yeah, I am pretty much guaranteed to fuck up in f3, so yeah, I could be on a Vote Vanta campaign. No self vote at this point but if I get to 3 ....

But meanwhile, I did overnight homework to the tune of trying to figure out why everybody who was here was still here. And then trying to guess who the NK would be. And then making a little chart to the effect of "if the NK is XXX, then vote YYY."

I don't know why I was all cagey with the XXs and YYs there, "If the NK is Benneh, vote Ender." Some of them were reciprocal (if dya vote Hally, but I thought that pretty unlikely).

If last woof is Rask or Arctic that is very high levels of method acting (particularly Arctic) and I tip my hat to your artful and sustained deception.

There's no way to prove this but I did think Benneh was most likely NK.
i will say, this post is kinda weird to me because i don’t think i have ever put so much thought into who would be the NK and what each player dying would mean outside of maybe exactly the night before F3

the only time i would ever dedicate this much thought to it would be as a wolf to figure out who i should kill

but i also don’t know if a wolf would actually post about it like this so idk

[Vanta Black]

There is some background about my thoughts but it's probably tldr.

It is a late-game exercise that I have found very helpful, the few times I have been in late game as town. Kind of a variation of "why are YOU still here? Why do wolves need YOU alive?"

[Raskolnikov]

There is some background about my thoughts but it's probably tldr.

It is a late-game exercise that I have found very helpful, the few times I have been in late game as town. Kind of a variation of "why are YOU still here? Why do wolves need YOU alive?"

Its not tldr if v!you are likely to get mischop today :bow:
Please write it Vanta.

[Raskolnikov]

Fwiw I have thoughts about it but will only post once I get to read yours

[Vanta Black]

Its not tldr if v!you are likely to get mischop today :bow:
Please write it Vanta.

Right now though it's 130am and it's kind of a long thing to type (it is longhand scrawls).

Let me just say that the result of my process made it a close thing between Ender and dyachei and I do appreciate Hally's case. I am rereading still, in context.

We don't havE to have F3, let's get the last one today!

Also, you said you don't want to be in F3 with me, fair enough. Who do you want there instead?

[Raskolnikov]

Right now though it's 130am and it's kind of a long thing to type (it is longhand scrawls).

Let me just say that the result of my process made it a close thing between Ender and dyachei and I do appreciate Hally's case. I am rereading still, in context.

We don't havE to have F3, let's get the last one today!

Also, you said you don't want to be in F3 with me, fair enough. Who do you want there instead?

but like you already posted twice about it but are refusing to give clues about your process. It just looks fake.

What is this last question lol?

[Raskolnikov]

I have started a post about NK strategy for Vanta but it might be seen as openwolfing so I am keeping it for later.

In other news, I have started a full reread, I am now wolf reading Benneh. glgl

[Vanta Black]

but like you already posted twice about it but are refusing to give clues about your process. It just looks fake.

What is this last question lol?

Nah forget that last question.

So basically process is this: Pretend YOU are the last scum, who is left, why are they there? If you slide into thinking "this is why XXX needs to keep them alive" you have failed this process, you have to figure out why you (as scum) are keeping them alive, and (at least in my case I have to) write down the reasons. At the end of this the player with the lease plausible reason is the most likely to be scum.

So that's the process, anyway, hope that helps. It was a much more experienced player who suggested it. Have only had occasion to use it once, and it is hard not to keep slipping into that mindset of why someone else would keep this or that player alive. Not that that isn't helpful but it isn't the exercise. If that makes any sense.

[Vanta Black]

Nah forget that last question.

So basically process is this: Pretend YOU are the last scum, who is left, why are they there? If you slide into thinking "this is why XXX needs to keep them alive" you have failed this process, you have to figure out why you (as scum) are keeping them alive, and (at least in my case I have to) write down the reasons. At the end of this the player with the least plausible reason is the most likely to be scum.

So that's the process, anyway, hope that helps. It was a much more experienced player who suggested it. Have only had occasion to use it once, and it is hard not to keep slipping into that mindset of why someone else would keep this or that player alive. Not that that isn't helpful but it isn't the exercise. If that makes any sense.

A correction

[Raskolnikov]

GOd Vanta, you do this one more time and I will vote you and never look back.

Why Ender killed Benneh in your opinion for God sake?

[Raskolnikov]

Hally why is Vanta a villager? Look what is happening rn.

[Vanta Black]

What did I do now?

[Raskolnikov]

You keep making posts while dodging the simple question I 've asked more than 12 hours ago.

[Raskolnikov]

rn I am at OK Vanta just saw they need Ender dead today and will bring Dya/hally in F3 to win. (NKing me/Arctic in whatever order)

glgl

[Raskolnikov]

OK back to wolfreading Benneh and liking Zack's posts.

[Raskolnikov]

i'm sorry sir but this post is terrible, regardless of logic's actual alignment. i actually grimaced irl reading it.

Vote: EnderWiggin

(real)


Hottest take rn is that Rask is town.

Which is not the hottest take but I believe it tbh


This is a terrible vote. I grimmaced irl reading it.

(Real)

I am not exactly thrilled by these and people liking these rn.

[Vanta Black]

You keep making posts while dodging the simple question I 've asked more than 12 hours ago.

You asked about my process, well I shared it. I didn't post the whole thing but I did share the results I got when doing it, IMO. The process is not "why Ender killed Benneh," or even who killed who on whatever night, so I explained it poorly.

Eh, just vote me out, that's probably best.

[Raskolnikov]

God Ender, you early interactions with Syn are atrocious lol

me rn reading the game and hoping to not pivot out all my reads

https://i.gifer.com/Np27.gif

[EnderWiggin]

God Ender, you early interactions with Syn are atrocious lol

me rn reading the game and hoping to not pivot out all my reads

https://i.gifer.com/Np27.gif

Sounds like a skill issue tbh.