OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[TinCow]

This is the OOC Thread for Last of the Romans. This thread is designed to be a simple chatroom for LotR players. No important information will ever be posted in here. This thread does not count as a "public thread" for the purposes of the LotR rules, so any oath swearing, oath breaking, or wills which are posted in here will not be considered valid. No information posted in this thread will be considered as binding on the Megas Logothetes. In short, this thread has no official relationship to LotR in any capacity. It is simply a chatroom.

I know I said I wouldn't close these things all the time like econ21 did, but the old thread was getting absurdly large. Ah, I love the smell of a fresh, new thread. Let's celebrate by starting fresh, new discussions in it. Anyone feel like calculating whether we're exceeding the KOTR posting volume?

[Privateerkev]

:jumping:

[_Tristan_]

WOOT !! WOOT !!

I got the last post before closure... :2thumbsup:

[Warmaster Horus]

And predictably PK got the first post here... Who'd have guessed?
Good thinking TC, 58 pages is a bit much for one thread.

[Privateerkev]

Look at the first page of the first LotR OOC thread. ;)

[AussieGiant]

Hey there WM.

Good to see you here and in the game.

[AussieGiant]

Hey there WM.

Good to see you here and in the game.

EDIT

*Crap*

[Warmaster Horus]

I saw that PK... I wonder if you'll be first for the third thread.

Thanks AG, I just needed a day to get into this.

[Privateerkev]

I saw that PK... I wonder if you'll be first for the third thread.

Time will tell... :2thumbsup:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Hey WH and welcome in to the 'want-to-be-Romans' community :beam:

[ULC]

Hey WH and welcome in to the 'want-to-be-Romans' community :beam:

Want to be Romans? You mean were not actually Romans?! Then what are we, Greek?!

:clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

There is one little matter however. Mak got a MotH offer. I will send an IC PM to the recipient. At the very least, it should provide for some entertainment... :laugh4:

PK please tell.. please.. please !!!! :jumping:

Don't tell that it's the Caesar? :laugh4:

[_Tristan_]

My bet is the Caesar :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

PK please tell.. please.. please !!!! :jumping:

Don't tell that it's the Caesar? :laugh4:

Almost as bad. It's Kantakouzinos...

:laugh4:

I love LotR... :2thumbsup:

*edit*

The Caesar's 4 "child slots" are full now. Kosmas, 2 natural sons, and now Kantakouzinos.

*edit2*

Please do not react to this IC yet until Kag and I can have a PM exchange.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

LOL..

This could be interesting to see when Makedonios calls Ioannis(Why is there so many Ioannises??? :dizzy2:) a dad!! :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

LOL..

This could be interesting to see when Makedonios calls Ioannis(Why is there so many Ioannises??? :dizzy2:) a dad!! :laugh4:

If, and that seems to be a pretty big if, it gets accepted, it will be along the lines of Kosmas and Methodios where one sponsors the other.

[Dafuge]

I would call it a bit bigger than BIG .

[TinCow]

Keep in mind, you don't have to RP the connection if you don't want to. Implementing the exact family tree into the IC game is entirely optional. If creating a relationship is absurd under the circumstances, then just don't do it.

[Privateerkev]

Keep in mind, you don't have to RP the connection if you don't want to. Implementing the exact family tree into the IC game is entirely optional. If creating a relationship is absurd under the circumstances, then just don't do it.


For me, it would be worth it just for the stories... :2thumbsup:

[Ignoramus]

Can I make a suggestion concerning the SOT? That is that we make it that you can only change your orders at the start of each Magnaura session, or when you personally lose or gain a settlement. Because I have to constantly check 30+ threads to see if anything has changed before I do my turn, and it can become a nightmare.

[Privateerkev]

In the test game we established that the SOT can pretty much change whenever. All the Megas has to do is check for things that were updated recently.

But it is a nice courtesy to give the Megas an OOC PM if you change major things.

[flyd]

Well, I found you only had to check the SOT when you were about to do something that could be banned in an SOT, which only a few things like removing things from garrisons, and even then you only had to find the single relevant post. You also had to check around when it was time to decide what construction to do, but even that is usually only possible in a few settlement yearly. In general, there is absolutely no need to read through the SOT.

[pevergreen]

Just a note, Michails loyalty is 3, if he happens to revolt, dont redo saves etc, I'm happy to let him be there as a rebel lol.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I wonder .. is w&f very upset? :saint:

[Dafuge]

I wonder who decided to tie a know on his ship...

[woad&fangs]

I wonder who decided to tie a know on his ship...

Hmmm, let's see...besides Laskaris... We have myself, a guy nicknamed "the chivalrous", a gaggle of monks, and a guy who is crusading because his wife told him too. :laugh4:

It's okay, I kind of expected this to happen. Besides, it makes for good story material.

[Privateerkev]

a gaggle of monks,

:laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Hmmm, let's see...besides Laskaris... We have myself, a guy nicknamed "the chivalrous", a gaggle of monks, and a guy who is crusading because his wife told him too. :laugh4:

It's okay, I kind of expected this to happen. Besides, it makes for good story material.

Well, I was scared that your going to sabotage me so I sabotaged you. :beam:
I wonder when Annios and Efstathios start to hate each other :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

LOL .. I saw this in rossah's sig.. sry but laugh is a good day to start the day.. and this made me laugh:laugh4:


"Okay, here come the cavalry, get your swords out lads!" - the Captain details his orders to the pikemen

The best description for the M2TW pikemen:laugh4:

[Ferret]

Time to fight back, I'm bored of sitting in Iconium :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

Time to fight back, I'm bored of sitting in Iconium :laugh4:

Remember, you could take your avatar anywhere you wanted. You don't have to sit in Iconium forever.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I have implemented the final part of the Crusade Event, marked as #10 in my original post. You didn't think I'd let everyone who stayed at home be bored, did you?

Actually I did! :inquisitive:

[Ferret]

Remember, you could take your avatar anywhere you wanted. You don't have to sit in Iconium forever.

yeah I know, but where? I doubt I could get a ship back to my land, most are being used at the moment, but I have nowhere else to go...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

EF .. you don't have to go anywhere .. you can redeem Hypatios or something while protecting the Empires land against that jihad ...

[woad&fangs]

ugh, Hypatios Soter :sick:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

woad&fangs .. when you going to post that story?

[woad&fangs]

Which story?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Check your pm!

[OverKnight]

And the other shoe drops.

KHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!

[AussieGiant]

It's the old bait and switch boys.

Guess there will be a party somewhere in the Empire as we gather for a little Jihad bashing. :beam:

[00jebus]

Jihad bashing party, will there be cake?

[deguerra]

the cake is a lie

[GeneralHankerchief]

Ouch. That sort of thing is never fun to go through.

[flyd]

I guess it won't take me as long to get the death story done as I expected. It should be done tomorrow, so you might as well gain IC knowledge now if you'd like. The details are still unknown, but there was a battle, Mark is dead, the army's gone, Turks sit in Caesarea with about half of what they originally had.

For those of you who remember the death of Fredericus von Hamburg, this one will be not at all like it. :beam:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Markianos is dead!! :dizzy2:
And I thought that we have 'jedi knights' protecting our generals!!! :inquisitive:

[Privateerkev]

For those of you who remember the death of Fredericus von Hamburg, this one will be not at all like it. :beam:

So Mark did not slip and fall down a wet flight of stairs? :clown:

But on a more serious note, sorry to hear that FD. I was wondering when we'd get our first battle loss. With our Jedi generals, I was wondering if we'd see one for awhile.

But at least with this game, you can get back up on the horse. :beam:

[AussieGiant]

FD, why did you sally...was it nearly time?

Sorry to hear the result though.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I want to know why you sallied too!
I can't look at the save but as I remember then a large Asteri army was near Caesarea. Right?
Damn.. I really liked Markianos :beam:

[Ramses II CP]

Our first loss, and on the eastern front, and right before the jihad launch. Rough! My sympathies FD.

Battle deaths with these jedi generals are so unpredictable because they're so tough you really can't tell what could possibly kill them. Set up a few SP battles with generals against even the most elite spearmen and they just don't die, but every once in awhile...

:egypt:

[Warmaster Horus]

Sad to see Markianos go, flyd. Especially since we've got the Jihad against us...

Um, in other news... Ibn-Khaldun and I are trying to set up a LotR style game for EB 1.1 (the mod for RTW); check this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=106327) for more info. Current status has 5 players in, the faction being the Arche Seleukeia (the Seleucids). Despite the fact that we would start with plenty of territory, if we mod it somewhat, we could have an actually pretty difficult campaign ahead of us.
So... anybody interested?

[deguerra]

Love to WH, but too busy at the moment, I'm afraid. I'll check it out if uni things cool down somewhat. :2thumbsup:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I've just noticed that in both KotR and LotR that the game's second chancellor has been the first avatar to die. Take note for the sequel.

[TinCow]

This poses a small problem with the rules which I forgot to anticipate. Technically, this breaks the oaths of loyalty for Zigavinos Vasilakios (rossahh) and Ioannis Kalameteros (deguerra). However, this causes a bit of unnecessary havoc within the system. Since this is not really discussed in the rules, I will do the following:

1) Zigavinos Vasilakios (rossahh) will be assumed to have immediately sworn a new oath to Ioannis Kalameteros (deguerra) to prevent any time of extra rank loss.
2) If Zigavinos Vasilakios (rossahh) does not want to re-swear to Ioannis Kalameteros (deguerra), then he simply needs to say so and it will be treated as if the oath was never sworn so that Zigavinos can reswear to someone else without the potential 5 turn delay.

It is also worth noting that since 1116 AD had already started at the time that Markianos Ampelas died, Ioannis Kalameteros (deguerra) successfully met the 5 turns at Patrikios rank requirement for Dux. He has now been demoted to Antypatos, but he can advance as far as Dux now without any time requirements. Note also that Thessalonica now belongs to Ioannis Kalameteros (deguerra).

[Privateerkev]

[QUOTE=TinCow;1981196]It is also worth noting that since 1116 AD had%2

[GeneralHankerchief]

Remember guys: IC, you know nothing. :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

It is also worth noting that since 1116 AD had%2

What an interesting post! :clown:

[Privateerkev]

What an interesting post! :clown:

WTF! :wall:

My point was, Kalameteros won't meet the 'time in rank' requirement until 1117. As TC explained to me about Mak, it's 5 turns from the turn you first got the current rank.

Mark, Mak, and Ioannis all met their ranks in 1110. Mak met his during 1110. Mark and Ioannis met theirs in the beginning of 1110. TC said that's basically the same thing.

So, 1111, 1113, 1114, 1116, and 1117 are the years. 1117 will be "turn 5" for both Mak and Ioannis since Mark is dead. But, Mark being dead knocks Ioannis out one turn early. So, it will just be Mak in 1117.

*edit*

Of course degeurra can fix this by just giving land to someone in his chain with no land...

[AussieGiant]

Remember guys: IC, you know nothing. :yes:

Are you sure there GH. Can't I place a call back down to Cairo and get a heads up from the inside...? You know, ex-Officer is Caliph's army, etc etc :balloon2:

[Privateerkev]

Remember guys: IC, you know nothing. :yes:

Love the story. Definitely fits with what I know of the character. :2thumbsup:

One point of contention though. There are those of us who have been pushing IC for spreading the word. ~;p

[GeneralHankerchief]

Are you sure there GH. Can't I place a call back down to Cairo and get a heads up from the inside...? You know, ex-Officer is Caliph's army, etc etc :balloon2:

You want to hire a boat, beat the Crusaders to Cairo, and make your way into the Caliph's inner circle as a baptised Orthodox while there's a genocide going on, be my guest. :smartass:

[flyd]

So Mark did not slip and fall down a wet flight of stairs? :clown:

No stairs were harmed in the making of this death.


FD, why did you sally...was it nearly time?

Not at all, the city was besieged only last turn, had 9 turns left. Why? That will be explained thoroughly and with 100% accuracy in the upcoming report. You just sit and wait. :laugh4:

[AussieGiant]

You want to hire a boat, beat the Crusaders to Cairo, and make your way into the Caliph's inner circle as a baptised Orthodox while there's a genocide going on, be my guest. :smartass:

But dude, there seems to be some inconsistencies. The Patriarch was there, then he wasn't, WAS it a baptism, was it something else, who knows?

Maybe I'm some deep, deep, deep undercover agent working against the dastardly Orthodox satanic figure who lurks in the background...





:clown:

[TinCow]

WTF! :wall:

My point was, Kalameteros won't meet the 'time in rank' requirement until 1117. As TC explained to me about Mak, it's 5 turns from the turn you first got the current rank.

Incorrect, because Kalameteros' timer started in 1108, not 1110 like the other two. Of the three people on timers in Asteri, 2 met the requirements in 1117 (one now dead and the other no longer Asteri) and 1 met the requirements in 1116 (Kalameteros).

[Privateerkev]

Incorrect, because Kalameteros' timer started in 1108, not 1110 like the other two. Of the three people on timers in Asteri, 2 met the requirements in 1117 (one now dead and the other no longer Asteri) and 1 met the requirements in 1116 (Kalameteros).

Please note that the "WTF" was because of the board eating my post, not anything you said.

I thought Kalameteros became a Patriokos because of Ampelas swearing to him in the beginning of 1110. If so, then the timer would run out in 1117. If it wasn't Ampelas that pushed Kalameteros to Patriokos in 1110, then what did it in 1108? As far as I could see, Asteri only had 4 land-owning nobles in the chain in 1108. Kalmeteros(Athens), Anastatios(Belgrade), Hypatios(Rhodes), What-ever-Rossah's-character's-name-is(Smyrna). In 1110, Ampelas moved into the chain bringing ThessawhateverthenameisofAmpelas'sprovince and Scopia. He then gave Scopia to Kosmas.

*confused*

Sorry if this all seems like a nitpick but if we're going to make these time-in-ranks means something, we need to be clear and consistent.

*edit*

Unless we're not counting 1110 as starting until the Senate session starts. That makes more sense. In that case, the big Asteri feudal chain change did happen in 1108. But that leaves me confused as to why the 3 Asteri people would have 2 different time-in-rank fulfillment dates. Since the same feudal chain switch bumped all 3 characters up the ladder at the same time. So, basically all 3 would have met their requirements in 1116. But Mark died and Hypatios was thrown out. So, that leaves Kalameteros.

Thank you for your patience during this giant brain dump. :D

*no longer as confused*

[flyd]

The battle of Caesarea "report" has been posted (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1980976&postcount=22).

[BananaBob]

Just a reminder: yes I am still alive.

My internet is taking a heck of a lot longer then i had originally thought, but I am pretty sure I will be connected mid week.

Sorry about my tardiness:clown:

[TinCow]

Sorry if this all seems like a nitpick but if we're going to make these time-in-ranks means something, we need to be clear and consistent.

I cant remember exactly what it was that caused the 1108 rank jump, but it definitely happened. In 1110, Ampelas joined Asteri, which resulted in a bit of a reorganization. Whatever it was before then allowed Kalameteros to be a Patrikios, but didnt have anyone at Antypatos. The 2 people at Antypatos rank happened during the reorganization that resulted from Ampelas joining. At least that's how I remember it and that's what my Library entries said before I recently edited them, so that's what I'm sticking with.

[deguerra]

:beam: I honestly have absolutely no idea. :2thumbsup:

I hope to be assigning Iconium and Thessalonici (which reverts to me, correct?) soon though, so that should hopefully make things easier.

edit: though currently, is it correct to say I have no vassals until rossah reswears loyalty to me? Or does that get transferred on death?

[TinCow]

:beam: I honestly have absolutely no idea. :2thumbsup:

I hope to be assigning Iconium and Thessalonici (which reverts to me, correct?) soon though, so that should hopefully make things easier.

edit: though currently, is it correct to say I have no vassals until rossah reswears loyalty to me? Or does that get transferred on death?

Yes, Thessalonica is now yours. Ampelas did not have a will that I am aware of, so it goes to his Lord, which is you. I have I already marked this in the Library.

Your second question is addressed in this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1981196&postcount=53).

[deguerra]

Ahem. Damn OOC threads going to the next page without me noticing. By bad. Thanks TC :2thumbsup:

[Privateerkev]

I cant remember exactly what it was that caused the 1108 rank jump, but it definitely happened. In 1110, Ampelas joined Asteri, which resulted in a bit of a reorganization. Whatever it was before then allowed Kalameteros to be a Patrikios, but didnt have anyone at Antypatos. The 2 people at Antypatos rank happened during the reorganization that resulted from Ampelas joining. At least that's how I remember it and that's what my Library entries said before I recently edited them, so that's what I'm sticking with.

Well regardless, I think you are right, though for a different reason than you state.

Ampelas joined Asteri in 1108 because the Senate session hadn't started yet. It was a weird space of time between when Ampelas posted his last report and when the session opened.

From now on, it might be good to make this clear. The year that a Senate session starts in, doesn't start until the session itself starts.

That is what was confusing me. I thought the dead space in between the last Megas report, and the new Senate session, was actually 1110.

Unless you want to claim that years begin when the last Megas report ends.

I think it would work fine either way as long as we were consistent.

Why this is important is because feudal chain changes seem to happen right before a Senate session. And the time-in-rank thing is important to keep track of since it has to do with an avatar's political power.

[Kagemusha]

Great song for a battle report flyd.:smash:

[flyd]

Thanks Kag, it's nice to see that someone appreciates my fine work. :laugh4:

[Andres]

I liked it as well :2thumbsup:

[deguerra]

Yes, me too flyd.

YLAC, I am not sure I agree with Veronica just walking out of the Senate. She was my guest, sure, but now one I am willing to just let go.

[_Tristan_]

Nice song, FD !

Sorry about your loss though I can't say Methodios is chagrined...

[AussieGiant]

Nice stuff FD.

Just a general comment to everyone.

It would be best if people didn't take the distances from the Magnaura too seriously. The issue came up before in KotR and it far more preferable to actually attend the Magnaura personally rather than send representatives.

Please note this is not aimed at anyone, but simply a general comment. Given the large time scales involved it is not inconceivable that people can get around and attend in person. It's probably a little bit of a stretch but not too much.

Unless of course you actually want to send someone as a replacement.

The feeling of interaction is greatly increased when our characters are actually "face to face" in the game.

I'm far more likely to deal with someone if they are there rather than talk through a proxy.

[_Tristan_]

It would be best if people didn't take the distances from the Magnaura too seriously. The issue came up before in KotR and it far more preferable to actually attend the Magnaura personally rather than send representatives.

Given the large time scales involved it is not inconceivable that people can get around and attend in person. It's probably a little bit of a stretch but not too much.

Except when you're away in the middle of the ocean and almost ship-wrecked...:titanic:

I'm thinking of having Methodios renamed as Odysseus...:sharky:

[_Tristan_]

in the Megas thread
Refused the adoption.


I almost wish you hadn't...

It would have given us another outburst by Makedonios...

You spoiled our fun, Kag... :no:

:clown:

[ULC]

Yes, me too flyd.

YLAC, I am not sure I agree with Veronica just walking out of the Senate. She was my guest, sure, but now one I am willing to just let go.

I thought I sent you a pm regarding this matter, didn't you get it? :inquisitive: ?

I also liked the battle report as well, but I am not one for poetry much.

[TinCow]

Let me restate the general Throne Room rule: If you are using a character created by someone else in one of your stories, you absolutely MUST get permission from that person before you post it. It does not matter whether the character is the other person's actual avatar or just a random NPC that they have created. DO NOT USE SOMEONE ELSE'S CHARACTERS WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION. This is a very serious rule and I will not hesitate to remove people from the game if they violate it.

[Kagemusha]

I almost wish you hadn't...

It would have given us another outburst by Makedonios...

You spoiled our fun, Kag... :no:

:clown:

That would have been too mean even from Kantakouzinos.~;)

[ULC]

Let me restate the general Throne Room rule: If you are using a character created by someone else in one of your stories, you absolutely MUST get permission from that person before you post it. It does not matter whether the character is the other person's actual avatar or just a random NPC that they have created. DO NOT USE SOMEONE ELSE'S CHARACTERS WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION. This is a very serious rule and I will not hesitate to remove people from the game if they violate it.

But it is my character, and I did create her :inquisitive:

[TinCow]

But it is my character, and I did create her :inquisitive:

Then you have nothing to worry about and my post doesn't apply to you.

[Smowz]

My deepest apologies for my long absence,

I have been absent on my holidays and I feel somewhat guilty that I have missed such a large portion of events. It took me a couple of days to digest all the recent events and am happy to return to hopefully play my part in this epic once again.

As for my holidays, I had a tremendous time touring around the countries of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania. I would recommend the cities of Tallinn and Vilnuis to anybody (that is not to say i did not enjoy the other places i went but those two stood out). The trails in the Carpathians in Romania were superb as well.

Anyway enough of that Nevoulas has some catching up to do.

[_Tristan_]

Welcome back, Smowz !!

Seems like Asteri needs you...

[Privateerkev]

Nice stuff FD.

Just a general comment to everyone.

It would be best if people didn't take the distances from the Magnaura too seriously. The issue came up before in KotR and it far more preferable to actually attend the Magnaura personally rather than send representatives.

Please note this is not aimed at anyone, but simply a general comment. Given the large time scales involved it is not inconceivable that people can get around and attend in person. It's probably a little bit of a stretch but not too much.

Unless of course you actually want to send someone as a replacement.

The feeling of interaction is greatly increased when our characters are actually "face to face" in the game.

I'm far more likely to deal with someone if they are there rather than talk through a proxy.

I totally agree. I'm noticing there is a "scribe's convention" in the Senate lately. Having your proxy argue with the other guy's proxy gets old.

Having a scribe give basic information to the Senate is one thing, but having him arguing is another. Like AG, I think the game is richer if we have our characters debate in person.


I almost wish you hadn't...

It would have given us another outburst by Makedonios...

You spoiled our fun, Kag... :no:

:clown:

Stop... trying... to... goad... me... OOC... ~;p

And Mak wouldn't care about that anyways. He could care less if Ioannis adopted random people. His beef with him IC is that he didn't checkmark a simple form. :yes:

[_Tristan_]

Stop... trying... to... goad... me... OOC... ~;p


I wasn't goading you, PK... I just love when you get nasty... Is all...~;p

Grandmaster of the Order of St John the Golden-Mouthed or is it the Foul-Mouthed ? :yes:

[Privateerkev]

I wasn't goading you, PK... I just love when you get nasty... Is all...~;p

Grandmaster of the Order of St John the Golden-Mouthed or is it the Foul-Mouthed ? :yes:

Wait till I get nasty at your character... ~;p

And he was golden-mouthed until he got to the Senate. Now, being in that "wretched hive of scum and villiany" has left him cranky. :clown:

[Andres]

I totally agree. I'm noticing there is a "scribe's convention" in the Senate lately. Having your proxy argue with the other guy's proxy gets old.

Having a scribe give basic information to the Senate is one thing, but having him arguing is another. Like AG, I think the game is richer if we have our characters debate in person.



Yes but having my character constantly walking in and out of the building, 'tired from a long journey to Constantinople' sounds a bit odd as well.

Poor Savvas will get grumpy if you don't allow him to have his secret decadent bacchanalias in peace and out of sight of his fellow noblemen.

[_Tristan_]

Wait till I get nasty at your character... ~;p

I could start on some innuendo right there but I beg to differ...:laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

Yes but having my character constantly walking in and out of the building, 'tired from a long journey to Constantinople' sounds a bit odd as well.

Poor Savvas will get grumpy if you don't allow him to have his secret decadent bacchanalias in peace and out of sight of his fellow noblemen.

Savvas is grumpy to Mak anyways. ~;p

Sorry, but from an OOC point of view, I much rather interact with Savvas, than Savvas's scribe.

IC however, I do admit Mak is enjoying the peace and quiet.

All the more reason to have Savvas stick around more. You want to keep Mak on your toes don't you? :clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

My deepest apologies for my long absence,

I have been absent on my holidays and I feel somewhat guilty that I have missed such a large portion of events. It took me a couple of days to digest all the recent events and am happy to return to hopefully play my part in this epic once again.

As for my holidays, I had a tremendous time touring around the countries of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania. I would recommend the cities of Tallinn and Vilnuis to anybody (that is not to say i did not enjoy the other places i went but those two stood out). The trails in the Carpathians in Romania were superb as well.

Anyway enough of that Nevoulas has some catching up to do.

Good to see you back!:2thumbsup:

You didn't happen to visit Tartu while you were in Estonia? :clown:
Anyway.. Tallinn is a great place to visit.. but personally I wouldn't want to live there. :beam:

[Smowz]

I did spend a few days in Tartu yes, I stayed at a small inexpensive B + B in a closeby suburb. It is a nice little place I thought, nice little square and centre, with plenty of friendly people to talk to. I actually took a day trip from there to Otepaa as well. If I would have stayed longer i would have taken the ferry out to that big lake nearby but alas i did not have time.

[Ferret]

I'm glad that Templar guy is blocking the way for the Jihadists as well as us :clown:

[Privateerkev]

I'm glad that Templar guy is blocking the way for the Jihadists as well as us :clown:

Unfortunately he won't block the Germans. If you click on the Crusader army, the yellow shows that they can just walk past the Templar general. I had hoped that the Templar would have stopped both the Germans and the Egyptians there so they could kill each other. :beam:

But it would be nice if the Egyptians went and killed that guy for us. He turns a 1 turn trip into a 3 turn trip. :wall:

[Ferret]

Just to let everyone now I'll be in Berlin from tomorrow till Friday, so no posts from me.

[Privateerkev]

EDIT: did nothing since Savvas still has the "Troops despondent" treat (needs to spend time in a settlement).

For such a jovial guy, Savvas has a very unhappy army. :clown:

[Andres]

For such a jovial guy, Savvas has a very unhappy army. :clown:

They've been out in the field with that drunkard for about 10 years or so :shrug:



Sorry, but from an OOC point of view, I much rather interact with Savvas, than Savvas's scribe.

IC however, I do admit Mak is enjoying the peace and quiet.

Time to take a few more low blows at Mak then ~;p

[_Tristan_]

Happy birthday, TheFlax !!

:birthday2: :happybirthday3: ~:cheers:


~:wave:

[Ignoramus]

Can I speak for Kage and reject the MotH? He rejected PK on my instruction, and considering Cecil is one of PK's cronies, I doubt Kage would accept it. It's just that by the time Kage gets back online, I'll be in bed, and I'm very busy tomorrow.

[OverKnight]

Ignoramus,

Tough case, but the CA about adoption that passed leaves the decision in the hands of the adopter.

We can guess what Kagemusha would want, and you'd probably be right, however the decision is his to make. We have to wait.

BTW, have you been moving Aleksios towards the capital?

Edit: Possible thought, do all the Megas stuff, save right before you press end of turn and have the game primed to advance. Then, when we get Kag's decision, you're ready to go.

[Kagemusha]

Can I speak for Kage and reject the MotH? He rejected PK on my instruction, and considering Cecil is one of PK's cronies, I doubt Kage would accept it. It's just that by the time Kage gets back online, I'll be in bed, and I'm very busy tomorrow.

Go ahead and reject the adoption. I dont think Ioannis has anymore intentions of adopting the second in charge of the order then he had adopting the grandmaster.Edit: And happy birthday The Flax!

[AussieGiant]

Happy birthday Flax

[Ignoramus]

Thanks, Kage.

Sorry for the delay guys, but there's an in game issue I'm raising with TC.

[Rowan]

Let me guess... huge Egyptian fleet sunk half of the crusaders?

[Ignoramus]

No, but it is to do with the in game event(otherwise I wouldn't raise it).

[TinCow]

Ig and I seem to have opposing schedules, so apologies if this isn't resolved quickly. At the latest, I will deal with the issue when I get home this evening (EST). Also, it appears I may have missed the 1117 Crusader movement. If this is the case, I will just do both 1117 and 1119 at the same time, since it's all console work anyway.

[ULC]

:balloon: :balloon3: :balloon2: Happy Birthday TF! :balloon: :balloon3: :balloon2:

[OverKnight]

Oops, Happy Birthday!

God forgive me, but I do like giving hokey speeches. :laugh4:

[TinCow]

God forgive me, but I do like giving hokey speeches. :laugh4:

"I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."

[GeneralHankerchief]

And we're just the guys to do it.

[Privateerkev]

"Over? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

[AussieGiant]

I just about threw up. That's a sure fire way of knowing if a speech was hokey or not!

Well done OverKnight...I feel like storming a few beaches. :clown:

[_Tristan_]

Sorry but your references lost me there...:dizzy2:

Though I'd like to share the joke...:yes:

[Privateerkev]

Sorry but your references lost me there...:dizzy2:

Though I'd like to share the joke...:yes:

TC, GH, and I are quoting this movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077975/).

:beam:

[_Tristan_]

Think I saw it way back then but I'll have to check it out... Belushi is a must...

[Privateerkev]

Think I saw it way back then but I'll have to check it out... Belushi is a must...

One of the best movies ever...

And for Belushi, you can't go wrong with Blues Brothers either. It's a great Chicago movie. :2thumbsup:

"I hate Illinois Nazis..."

[_Tristan_]

Blues Brother is cool (makes me want to dance, anytime I see it...) but I particularly like 1941...

Makes me think of Pearl Harbor (the movie) on acid...:2thumbsup:

[Privateerkev]

Blues Brother is cool (makes me want to dance, anytime I see it...) but I particularly like 1941...

Makes me think of Pearl Harbor (the movie) on acid...:2thumbsup:

Never did see 1941. I own Pearl Harbor though and it is an abomination. (Has some cool special effects at least.)

[_Tristan_]

I concur : PH is Hollywood movie machine at its worst though I'll agree with that there is some cool FX

As to 1941, it may be the worst Spielberg movie but I can't help laughing...:laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

Moved Gottfried de Payns, the Templar who was blocking the route between Antioch and Adana. His position was seriously screwing up the Crusade and Jihad armies.

:jumping:

[TinCow]

That was the reason for the delay. Igno noticed the massive detours both the HRE and Jihad armies were forced to take as a result of that one guy. I made an executive decision and teleported him home.

[woad&fangs]

The passing of Annios Solomon will not be forgotten by the locals, however, who are already expecting the birth of a slew of Crusader bastards.
:laugh4:

[TinCow]

Oops, got the names mixed up in that one. Those bastards are from Stavros' fleet, as reflected by the current edited version.

[woad&fangs]

So I can't start a bastard revolution against Hypatios in 16 years?:bigcry:

Also, dang scurvy :shakes fist angrily:. Luckily, I think it goes away pretty fast once you reach land.

[Privateerkev]

That was the reason for the delay. Igno noticed the massive detours both the HRE and Jihad armies were forced to take as a result of that one guy. I made an executive decision and teleported him home.

Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou!!!!!!!!

You have no idea how annoying that guy was... :wall:

I have a general SS question. How is the Caesar resupplying? He is now fully supplied but the territory he came from is not converted. Pavlos is still down to 25% supplies. I'm just trying to figure out this crazy supply system. :dizzy2:

And yeah, it seems most of the Crusaders are sick. Vissa, Annios, and Bart have scurvy. Efstatios is unhealthy. And Methodios is really unhealthy.

[Dafuge]

How come my men had to be the ones obessed with women?

[TinCow]

How come my men had to be the ones obessed with women?

You're the only one who rolled a 1 this turn.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You're the only one who rolled a 1 this turn.

I'm really starting to have a love-hate relationship with that die. The effects are amazingly comical - until you're in a civil war battle.

[Privateerkev]

I'm really starting to have a love-hate relationship with that die. The effects are amazingly comical - until you're in a civil war battle.

Yes, the cavalry officers that decided to go to bed through the entire Battle of Bern were quite comical.

:beam:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Just Bern?

-edit- Actually, that may just net its own subsection in the Levels of Losing aside the Hand-Wringer. "The Hair-Tearer": when units refuse to obey orders at critical points in the battle.

[Privateerkev]

Just Bern?

-edit- Actually, that may just net its own subsection in the Levels of Losing aside the Hand-Wringer. "The Hair-Tearer": when units refuse to obey orders at critical points in the battle.

That's the one I remember.

And yeah, I had my own "hair-tearer" moment but it wasn't because my units didn't obey orders. It was because I was too lazy to cut and paste on the paint program and swap the dismounted knights on the right with the crusader sergeants on the left. I knew you had men coming along the walls from my left and I knew the knights would have handled your knights better on the walls. But I was in a hurry that morning and I wanted to send my paint save to Econ. So I never switched them. Your knights mauled my sergeants on the left wall. Which allowed your knights to make it down to the gates, hurt Jan's bodyguards, and tie up his infantry when he made his fateful cavalry charge into the town center.

All because I was lazy... :wall:

[GeneralHankerchief]

That's the one I remember.

Dude, check out the Battle for Rome - the allies and I may have had it worse in that one. There were about 93 chances to catch Servius that were lost because the stupid cavalry wouldn't move.

Trent too, although not as much. It stopped the Republicans from going 6-for-6 in terms of netting Imperial generals.

[Northnovas]

I was just checking the latest save and was wondering why there were no bridges in the Antioch Region: because there are no roads. :shocked2:

One question I do have to make sure I have the correct version I see the recruit bodyguards is still available in settlements, I thought that was removed or was it left in? I did download the last update provided by TC. :help:

[Privateerkev]

Dude, check out the Battle for Rome - the allies and I may have had it worse in that one. There were about 93 chances to catch Servius that were lost because the stupid cavalry wouldn't move.

Trent too, although not as much. It stopped the Republicans from going 6-for-6 in terms of netting Imperial generals.

I wasn't around for Rome. I read it a long time ago but didn't pick up that detail. And since I wasn't in Trent, I didn't read too closely at the details. :book:

*edit*


I was just checking the latest save and was wondering why there were no bridges in the Antioch Region: because there are no roads.

One question I do have to make sure I have the correct version I see the recruit bodyguards is still available in settlements, I thought that was removed or was it left in? I did download the last update provided by TC.

No, there are no roads. Believe me, it's been mentioned IC to the Caesar, Senate, people on the street, small animals, and the trees... >_<

Yeah, the bodyguard recruitment was left in since we keep using it for replacement avatars.

[Northnovas]

No, there are no roads. Believe me, it's been mentioned IC to the Caesar, Senate, people on the street, small animals, and the trees... >_<

Yeah, the bodyguard recruitment was left in since we keep using it for replacement avatars.

:2thumbsup: I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I think your roads will have to wait (again) with the Fatimid on Greek land and no troops in the area to beat them off. There will have to be some major recruitment. :whip:

[Privateerkev]

:2thumbsup: I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I think your roads will have to wait (again) with the Fatimid on Greek land and no troops in the area to beat them off. There will have to be some major recruitment. :whip:

Oh I've been screaming IC about that too... :yes:

[TinCow]

One question I do have to make sure I have the correct version I see the recruit bodyguards is still available in settlements, I thought that was removed or was it left in? I did download the last update provided by TC. :help:

Every settlement in the game will be able to recruit RBGs for the entirety of LotR. This is to allow us to spawn new avatars whenever and wherever we want. RBGs may not be recruited for any other reason, since using them as regular military units would be an exploit due to their very low recruitment (1 florin) and upkeep (1 florin) costs.

[deguerra]

An Egyptian army landed between Corinth and Athens, a Turkish Jihad army moving southwest...this is going to be an interesting Jihad after all :P

[Privateerkev]

RBGs may not be recruited for any other reason, since using them as regular military units would be an exploit due to their very low recruitment (1 florin) and upkeep (1 florin) costs.

Not to mention the fact that the Force is strong in them... :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Hmm... Shouldn't all the Crusaders get the trait called 'Crusader' once they land in Egypt??

[Cecil XIX]

Hmm... Shouldn't all the Crusaders get the trait called 'Crusader' once they land in Egypt??

This is a good point. I'd leave the specifics up to Tincow, but at least some of the Crusaders should get that line of traits if the game will allow it.

[OverKnight]

An Egyptian army landed between Corinth and Athens, a Turkish Jihad army moving southwest...this is going to be an interesting Jihad after all :P

Personally, I'm starting to have flashbacks to the Cataclysm. Except no kidnapping this time.

[Privateerkev]

Personally, I'm starting to have flashbacks to the Cataclysm. Except no kidnapping this time.

My reaction to the Jihad is the same as my reaction to the "rebellion event."

And that is, "well, at least the stacks don't have triple-gold chevrons..." :P

[Ramses II CP]

Since there are enemy armies in range to threaten the Egyptian capital I would fully expect the AI to be attempting to send their troops to Sarkel. Defense is a dirty word. :laugh4:

I know nothing of code, but it astonishes me that even the most basic tenets of strategy are entirely absent from MTWII's AI. I remember someone said that reloading the save (Inevitable in our style of game) breaks some aspects of the AI, but in my experience it's useless whether you do that or not. More than once in my Total Independence campaign a large AI army would walk past one of their former cities that I had recently conquered and left entirely undefended trying to reach one of their remaining cities that my own forces were closer to or already held under siege.

In other words, I, for one, am very glad we have a competent opponent for this crusade. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

This is a good point. I'd leave the specifics up to Tincow, but at least some of the Crusaders should get that line of traits if the game will allow it.

Yes it is Tincows decision. I was just thinking that after everything some Crusaders have gone through they will get nothing from it if Alexandria or Cairo are taken before they ever reach there. So if the get the trait *Crusader' then at least they can brag about being a part of a Crusade!

Anyway.. Like to see what TC thinks about that...

[TinCow]

I will consider it, but I do not guarantee I will implement it. All of you knew from the start what the rewards were and what the risks were. If you don't like getting nothing out of it, there are ways for you to hinder your competitors.

[Privateerkev]

Yes it is Tincows decision. I was just thinking that after everything some Crusaders have gone through they will get nothing from it if Alexandria or Cairo are taken before they ever reach there. So if the get the trait *Crusader' then at least they can brag about being a part of a Crusade!

They can already brag about being part of the Crusade. It will impress some characters but won't impress others. The extra traits won't change that.

I'd be in favor of adding Crusader traits if we talked about it before the Crusade started. Now that it is underway, I don't like the idea of changing things in the middle of it.

Just my 2 cents...

But I do understand the importance of "bragging rights." In KotR, Jan had Crusader traits up the ying-yang and I gave him a big ole chip on his shoulder because of it. So, I say give your character a swagger over being a Crusader if you want to. The rest of the characters will react, or not react, accordingly. :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

They can already brag about being part of the Crusade. It will impress some characters but won't impress others. The extra traits won't change that.

I'd be in favor of adding Crusader traits if we talked about it before the Crusade started. Now that it is underway, I don't like the idea of changing things in the middle of it.

Just my 2 cents...

But I do understand the importance of "bragging rights." In KotR, Jan had Crusader traits up the ying-yang and I gave him a big ole chip on his shoulder because of it. So, I say give your character a swagger over being a Crusader if you want to. The rest of the characters will react, or not react, accordingly. :yes:

Well .. I never thought about that then!:shame::embarassed:

[Privateerkev]

The offer for the Guild is still up.

My guess is that is up to the Megas since it costs money. He can certainly ask Cecil his opinion on it. And Cecil can always destroy it if he doesn't want it. But I don't know if Senators can approve of Guilds themselves. No mention of Guilds is in the rules. Not for lack of trying on my part but the issue always died when I brought it up.

[OverKnight]

[old man voice]In my day going on Crusade meant you walked 40 years across all of Europe, Anatolia and the Levant. We didn't have any ships, we considered ourselves lucky if we had shoes! Foot ships we called them! And it wasn't a proper Crusade unless you defeated three Jihad armies before you got to where you were going! And it was uphill all the time! Bah! Crusaders today, a bunch of pansies the lot of you![/old man voice]

[Cecil XIX]

Settle down, old man Otto.

[Privateerkev]

In my day, you were simply born in the Levant and you were allowed to join a Crusade to the province next door simply because you happened to be around at the time.

:laugh4:

[OverKnight]

[old man voice]And in my day if a Religious Leader go too uppity, putting on airs, ordering people around and such, we didn't ban him from the Diet! No, we drowned him in raw sewage or hacked him to pieces! A good old vetoing, that's what we called it![/old man voice]

[Privateerkev]

And in my day, if an Emperor got too uppity, we simply bribed bandits to kill him while he traveled. None of this "civil war" mumbo-jumbo.

:clown:

[GeneralHankerchief]

[old man voice]And in my day if a Religious Leader go too uppity, putting on airs, ordering people around and such, we didn't ban him from the Diet! No, we drowned him in raw sewage or hacked him to pieces! A good old vetoing, that's what we called it![/old man voice]

Hey, you're welcome to try.

[TinCow]

My guess is that is up to the Megas since it costs money. He can certainly ask Cecil his opinion on it. And Cecil can always destroy it if he doesn't want it. But I don't know if Senators can approve of Guilds themselves. No mention of Guilds is in the rules. Not for lack of trying on my part but the issue always died when I brought it up.

You're right on all counts. Control over guilds was always rejected by the majority when it was brought up. Since the rules do not cover it, it is under the Megas' jurisdiction. If Cecil doesn't want the guild but Igno builds it anyway, he can just knock it down. I think that's unlikely to happen, though, given how tight the budget is lately.

[Dafuge]

I think Cecil needs to replay his turn then, unless he has already contacted Ignormous.

[TinCow]

Only if Igno protests, which I doubt he will. However...


moved Armatos to block the Jihadists.

This bit annoys me greatly. This seems to me to be an intentional exploitation of the AI. The whole reason that the Templar was moved in the first place was because the AI was too stupid to attack it and insisted on taking the long way around Anatolia. This is also a method that even circumvents my own methods of controlling the game, since the blatantly obvious thing for the Jihad armies to do is to squash the tiny army in their path and keep marching. However, I cannot start a battle when controlling the AI because it would have to be autoresolved, something which is very unfair to anyone controlling an avatar in the victimized stack.

However, the Jihad is part of the Crusade Event and therefore I can do what I want to make sure it is implemented properly. I am therefore declaring my intention to park those armies directly in Armatos' face next turn. If he does not move out of the way, I will then have the AI attack with both stacks and let autoresolve determine his fate. I will do the same for anyone else who blocks the Jihad armies but does not attack them. If you want to stop these things, you need to fight them. Otherwise, clear out of the way. Doing otherwise is exploiting the AI.

[GeneralHankerchief]

This bit annoys me greatly. This seems to me to be an intentional exploitation of the AI. The whole reason that the Templar was moved in the first place was because the AI was too stupid to attack it and insisted on taking the long way around Anatolia. This is also a method that even circumvents my own methods of controlling the game, since the blatantly obvious thing for the Jihad armies to do is to squash the tiny army in their path and keep marching. However, I cannot start a battle when controlling the AI because it would have to be autoresolved, something which is very unfair to anyone controlling an avatar in the victimized stack.

However, the Jihad is part of the Crusade Event and therefore I can do what I want to make sure it is implemented properly. I am therefore declaring my intention to park those armies directly in Armatos' face next turn. If he does not move out of the way, I will then have the AI attack with both stacks and let autoresolve determine his fate. I will do the same for anyone else who blocks the Jihad armies but does not attack them. If you want to stop these things, you need to fight them. Otherwise, clear out of the way. Doing otherwise is exploiting the AI.

:applause:

[Privateerkev]

This bit annoys me greatly. This seems to me to be an intentional exploitation of the AI. The whole reason that the Templar was moved in the first place was because the AI was too stupid to attack it and insisted on taking the long way around Anatolia. This is also a method that even circumvents my own methods of controlling the game, since the blatantly obvious thing for the Jihad armies to do is to squash the tiny army in their path and keep marching. However, I cannot start a battle when controlling the AI because it would have to be autoresolved, something which is very unfair to anyone controlling an avatar in the victimized stack.

However, the Jihad is part of the Crusade Event and therefore I can do what I want to make sure it is implemented properly. I am therefore declaring my intention to park those armies directly in Armatos' face next turn. If he does not move out of the way, I will then have the AI attack with both stacks and let autoresolve determine his fate. I will do the same for anyone else who blocks the Jihad armies but does not attack them. If you want to stop these things, you need to fight them. Otherwise, clear out of the way. Doing otherwise is exploiting the AI.

We only did that because the Germans are blocking the river crossing. Which means Mak can't get to Armatos this turn. So, Armatos can either fight both stacks by himself right now, or stall the Jihad for one turn.

It wasn't meant to exploit anything and it certainly wasn't meant to annoy you. :no:

Next turn, the Germans should move south. Then the full weight of the Order will come down on those two stacks. We'll still be outnumbered pretty bad.

I repeat, this was not done to cause the Jihad to take the long way around.

I wish next time people would actually ask us why we did things before jumping to conclusions...

[TinCow]

We only did that because the Germans are blocking the river crossing. Which means Mak can't get to Armatos this turn. So, Armatos can either fight both stacks by himself right now, or stall the Jihad for one turn.

That is exactly what I am complaining about. It seems I jumped to the exact right conclusion. You did it because you knew that the stacks would be stopped and would not attack Armatos. If I told you that they would just obliterate him and keep moving, you wouldn't have done it. This is exploiting the strategic AI.

[Privateerkev]

That is exactly what I am complaining about. It seems I jumped to the exact right conclusion. You did it because you knew that the stacks would be stopped and would not attack Armatos. If I told you that they would just obliterate him and keep moving, you wouldn't have done it. This is exploiting the strategic AI.

Actually I thought they would attack him and he would just retreat. We wanted to catch them in a pincer. We don't have a lot of resources.

This turn, Armatos has 3 options.

a.) Fight 2 stacks by himself. He has 6 units. I have 2 that have the MP to get to him. So, a total of 9 versus 2 almost full stacks in daylight. I asked him if he wanted to do it and he said no. I fully support him in this.

b.) Run to the pass. If the AI attacked, he'd back off. Next turn his army would be on one side, mine on the other. We'd hit them with a pincer move.

c.) Back off and just let the Jihad run into Anatolia. With their MP, we couldn't catch them. This means we'd effectively be left out of the Jihad event.

If you want us to do C, just say so. Because we are not doing A. And you don't like us doing B.

Please do not assume what I know or what I think. Because, in this case, you assumed wrong. Next time, just ask. :yes:

[TinCow]

If you want me to attack him and autoresolve (which is what you are suggesting with B) then I will do so. I guarantee you will not like the result. The units in the armies are not high quality, but in an autoresolve that won't matter.

[Privateerkev]

If you want me to attack him and autoresolve (which is what you are suggesting with B) then I will do so. I guarantee you will not like the result. The units in the armies are not high quality, but in an autoresolve that won't matter.

No that is not what I was suggesting. (what happened to just asking what I think?)

I thought the AI would attack him since we're at war. Therefore, it would pop up as a defensive battle and he'd have the choice to fight it or retreat.

If I am wrong about this, then it is because I am wrong about what the AI would do. It is not a case of me trying to exploit the AI.

Before you accuse me, please try to find out my motive for doing things. Not everything we do is sinister...

This was an innocent move made from innocent assumptions. :yes:

[TinCow]

You do realize that due to the higher Crusade movement rate (which you yourself noted) and the very short retreat distance, any retreat in such a situation would be followed up by a second attack from which there could be no retreat. I think it is reasonable to expect that people with as much M2TW experience as most KotR veterans have would know this. It seems to me that in such a situation, it would be highly unusual for a person to expect an army to survive unless they thought that the attack wouldn't happen in the first place. This also appears to have been a group decision. Are you telling me that no one even thought about this possibility, nor did any of them hit end turn to see what would happen?

[Privateerkev]

You do realize that due to the higher Crusade movement rate (which you yourself noted) and the very short retreat distance, any retreat in such a situation would be followed up by a second attack from which there could be no retreat. I think it is reasonable to expect that people with as much M2TW experience as most KotR veterans have would know this. It seems to me that in such a situation, it would be highly unusual for a person to expect an army to survive unless they thought that the attack wouldn't happen in the first place. This also appears to have been a group decision. Are you telling me that no one even thought about this possibility, nor did any of them hit end turn to see what would happen?

The retreat would have sent Armatos out of the Jihad's way. So I assumed they'd walk past him.

Under the crappy circumstances of this turn, we didn't know what else to do.

So yes, between Cecil and I, neither of us thought of the Jihad either obliterating Armatos or taking the long way around. I thought they only did that for the Templar because they are neutral.

I do not appreciate how I am being talked to. I had no sinister intent. If you have a problem, send a PM.

*edit*

As for hitting "end turn," I stopped playing ahead after it generated such a negative reaction in the beginning of the game.

[Cecil XIX]

Are you telling me that no one even thought about this possibility, nor did any of them hit end turn to see what would happen?

As far as I am aware, that is exactly what happened.


You do realize that due to the higher Crusade movement rate (which you yourself noted) and the very short retreat distance, any retreat in such a situation would be followed up by a second attack from which there could be no retreat. ~:eek: :wall:

[Ramses II CP]

If you guys had discussed this on the AHEM board I could've explained the way it would work to you. Personally I didn't imagine the Order would take those legions of peasants and go after the jihad armies anyway. :laugh4:

I hate to say it but the way things stand now if the AI attacks (retreat, attacks again) the battle should have to be fought.

:egypt:

[Privateerkev]

If you guys had discussed this on the AHEM board I could've explained the way it would work to you. Personally I didn't imagine the Order would take those legions of peasants and go after the jihad armies anyway. :laugh4:

I hate to say it but the way things stand now if the AI attacks (retreat, attacks again) the battle should have to be fought.

:egypt:

I didn't think about the Jihad hitting Cecil twice in a turn. :embarassed:

I thought they would hit, Cecil would fight/retreat, and then they'd walk by. And we could then say IC that we tried. With the Germans sitting on a key river crossing, we had few options. Most of Mak's army don't have the MP to reach the Jihad this turn because of the blocked crossing.

For IC reasons, I didn't want us to just stand aside and let those Jihad armies through without at least trying something. We'd get barbecued at the next Senate session for doing nothing.

That's why we did what we did. I didn't think about exploiting the AI. Though in my defense, I have now proved that the AI is so stupid, that it can be exploited completely by accident. :clown:

[TinCow]

I didn't think about exploiting the AI.

Then I take you at your word and apologize if you were offended by my words. I will proceed exactly as I outlined in my initial post. I have to take control of Egypt this turn anyway, so I will park both armies right on top of Armatos and leave them there. If he remains blocking their path on the next AI turn, the battle will be autoresolved (because I cannot start a battle that can be fought by the Byzantine player - if I could, this wouldn't be an issue). As I understand it, this fits in perfectly with your plan anyway, so it shouldn't cause problems.

[Privateerkev]

Then I take you at your word and apologize if you were offended by my words. I will proceed exactly as I outlined in my initial post. I have to take control of Egypt this turn anyway, so I will park both armies right on top of Armatos and leave them there. If he remains blocking their path on the next AI turn, the battle will be autoresolved (because I cannot start a battle that can be fought by the Byzantine player - if I could, this wouldn't be an issue). As I understand it, this fits in perfectly with your plan anyway, so it shouldn't cause problems.

:bow:

Ironically, if I was trying to exploit the AI, I would have really screwed up. Because I was operating off of faulty assumptions on the AI's behavior. :laugh4:

Plus, don't AI controlled Jihad/Crusader armies attack enemy armies in their way? They don't just wander like automatons towards the target do they? :book:

Also, if Cecil was attacked, and lost the battle, wouldn't his army just run to Adana? So the fear of "obliteration" didn't make sense to me. :shrug:

And yeah, what your outlining is very much in line with what we intended. Sounds good to us. :beam:

OOC I knew we were outnumbered and outgunned and we should just step aside. IC however, we couldn't do this. We're playing good brave Crusaders so Armatos and Mak wanted to at least try to make a dent in the evil armies. :2thumbsup:

[TinCow]

Plus, don't AI controlled Jihad/Crusader armies attack enemy armies in their way? They don't just wander like automatons towards the target do they? :book:

Actually, yes. :wall: Anyone seen any news on the ETW AI?

For the record, since I had to take control of Egypt myself this turn to prevent them from walking into Russia, the game considered them player controlled and made 3 units desert from one of the armies (AI controlled Crusade/Jihad armies do not suffer desertion). If you aren't up for the battle in the current situation, you can RP it that you've managed to kill off those 3 units through skirmishing. That's at least helping somewhat. I wouldn't worry about the Jihad armies too much, though. Under AI control they are very unlikely to end their movement adjacent to one another, and those stacks are not of good enough quality to be too much of a threat individually.

[Privateerkev]

FRAPS is refusing to take screencaps for some reason. To summarize, it was a close defeat. They lost 48% of their army, we lost 2/3 of ours. (Not counting the ransom) They lost the general in their larger stack, we lost no avatars. (Although Armatos is the only one left in his bodyguard, and Nathanail only has one other guy left in his)

Also, after the battle the enemy Sultan offered to ransom away the soldiers. Since their's no mention of ransoming in the rules, and Armatos is a do-what-you-can-and-damn-the-consequences kind of guy, I accepted that. I hope that's not a problem OOC.

Love your work Cecil! :2thumbsup:

That was about as good of an outcome as we could expect.

I can't wait for a battle report. :yes:

[Cecil XIX]

I'll be out of town starting now, won't be back until monday morning. I should have sporadic access to the internet though, so hopefully I'll be able to chek what's going on once a day and fight any battles within a 24-hour timeframe.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The man who was flogged on Efstathios Laskaris' (Ibn-Khaldun) ship the previous year soon recovered from his ordeal and began spreading subversive talk amongst the crew. Most of the men were perfectly content with their commander, but there are always a few troublemakers in any army, and this one was no exception. Soon these men were sowing discontent and discord amongst the fleet. The officers did their best to counter it, and they were aided by a large number of the crew, but a sizable minority soon began to openly express grievances. One morning, this entire group simply refused to emerge from their cabin to work the ship. The remainder of the crew did their best to keep the fleet moving, but the fleet had few hands to spare under normal conditions, and their progress soon slowed to a crawl. As the year ended, little progress had been made and the situation remained in a tense standoff.

Well.. was it sabotage or not? It's hard to tell:inquisitive:

[TinCow]

No, not sabotage. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[_Tristan_]

Nothing to see here...

TC beat me to it...

[OverKnight]

Looking at the current save, I'm in a bit of quandry. There's a turk Jihad army a few turns march from Constantinople along the north coast of Anatolia.

Now my normal reaction would be to find a choke point between the capital and the army, offer battle, whittle them down and fall back. However, Crusade AI is a bit. . .um. . .unique and while a normal army might stop to to attack an inferior force at a choke point, I think in this case the Turks would just find another route.

I find the idea of just sitting in the capital a bit unappealing, but I don't want to "exploit the AI". Any suggestions?

[Northnovas]

What if we situated ourselves on th east side of the straight that would ensure a field battle instead of a siege or do you think this would deter the AI and it would take another route? :book:

[Privateerkev]

I see FD has found something to do while he waits for the Emperor's son to come of age...

:laugh4:

[TinCow]

Looking at the current save, I'm in a bit of quandry. There's a turk Jihad army a few turns march from Constantinople along the north coast of Anatolia.

Now my normal reaction would be to find a choke point between the capital and the army, offer battle, whittle them down and fall back. However, Crusade AI is a bit. . .um. . .unique and while a normal army might stop to to attack an inferior force at a choke point, I think in this case the Turks would just find another route.

I find the idea of just sitting in the capital a bit unappealing, but I don't want to "exploit the AI". Any suggestions?

If you are marching out with the intention of giving battle as soon as you meet them, you can do whatever you want. The only thing I was considering exploiting the AI was intentionally delaying them. If you're actually going out to attack, I have no problems with what anyone is doing, regardless of how the idiotic AI reacts to it. In addition, there are far fewer choke points in the northern part of Anatolia. Cecil (and the Templar before him) just happened to park themselves right on the most crucial point which then resulted in a massive (5-6 turn) detour. This is vastly different from any spot around Constantinople (except for possibly blocking the ocean crossings).

[Privateerkev]

What about if you fight them, lose, and end up without MP and still blocking the Jihad?

:embarassed:

Also, I whacked one of the generals. I am assuming this will make that army drop out of the Jihad. Am I right?

[TinCow]

flyd, that Story post may be one of my favorite posts ever in the Throne Room.


What about if you fight them, lose, and end up without MP and still blocking the Jihad?

Under no circumstances whatsoever will a person EVER be penalized in any way for fighting a battle.


Also, I whacked one of the generals. I am assuming this will make that army drop out of the Jihad. Am I right?

I think so, but you can never tell with the AI. It might spawn in a new general for all I know.

[Ignoramus]

Or, being freed from the constraints of Jihad, it may decide to visit Antioch or Adana.

[GeneralHankerchief]

flyd, that Story post may be one of my favorite posts ever in the Throne Room.

Seconded.

[Northnovas]

flyd, that Story post may be one of my favorite posts ever in the Throne Room.

Well done! :2thumbsup:

[flyd]

What can I say, spending so many turns as a political ally of Ignoramus while he chooses to play a classic Ignoramus character can make a man get creative when it's over. :laugh4:

[Privateerkev]

What can I say, spending so many turns as a political ally of Ignoramus while he chooses to play a classic Ignoramus character can make a man get creative when it's over. :laugh4:

I would argue that this is a different Ignoramus character from all other Ignoramus characters that we have seen.

I mean, for once, he is the one in charge. Who is he supposed to rebel against? Himself? :clown:

[Ignoramus]

Don't forget that my first character(Sigismund der Stolze) was the most loyal character of the game. I'm actully relishing the opportunity to be the one in power, rather than the one rebelling against it.

[Privateerkev]

I'm actually relishing the opportunity to be the one in power, rather than the one rebelling against it.

I don't believe it. Some of us have a pool going on how long it will take for you to get bored being in charge. I believe eventually you will rebel against yourself and try to start up your own independent state. :clown:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Iggy, I'm going to give you the same advice I gave Ituralde when he played Siegfried: Enjoy it, because there's going to be plenty of people who are going to be doing the exact same thing you did.

[deguerra]

can I just publically state that Tagmata may have the Athens garrison for three or so turns without having to formally changed the SOT thread?

[TinCow]

Your post in the Megas thread was fine for that, although since Tagamata does not have a Private Army, the Megas himself can still mess with the force if he wants to.

[Kagemusha]

Flyd, those propaganda statements you wrote are just pure Gold!:bow:

[Andres]

Great stuff indeed :laugh4:

But I must admit that I'm tempted to ask flyd's permission to let Savvas kidnap "Demosthenes, Friend of the Roman People" to... teach him about the different social classes and how to critisize those of higher classes in a more appropriate way :evil:

[deguerra]

Very nicely written.

May I just say most awesome opening ceremony ever. And now im going to bed. Good night.

[Kagemusha]

Igno, this is really getting tiresome.Would you be so kind and answer my pm´s. If its IC reason you dont want to answer, i can accept, but if its OOC and i have to wait couple weeks to get an answer, then....:shame:

[flyd]

But I must admit that I'm tempted to ask flyd's permission to let Savvas kidnap "Demosthenes, Friend of the Roman People" to... teach him about the different social classes and how to critisize those of higher classes in a more appropriate way :evil:

What do you mean? Satirical flattery seems like a wholly appropriate way to criticize someone in a position of power. You were only being used as a literary device. :beam:

[Privateerkev]

What do you mean? Satirical flattery seems like a wholly appropriate way to criticize someone in a position of power. You were only being used as a literary device. :beam:

I demand that propaganda be more factually accurate in the future. I mean, who ever heard of sarcasm, distortions, embellishments, lies, and un-truths in propaganda!?!

I am very disappointed...

:clown:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Igno, this is really getting tiresome.Would you be so kind and answer my pm´s. If its IC reason you dont want to answer, i can accept, but if its OOC and i have to wait couple weeks to get an answer, then....:shame:

To make sure this isn't buried.

On a side note though, if I ever become Megas I think I might just turn off PMs for the duration of my turn. Seems like it would take care of a lot of problems.

[AussieGiant]

To make sure this isn't buried.

On a side note though, if I ever become Megas I think I might just turn off PMs for the duration of my turn. Seems like it would take care of a lot of problems.

*raises his hand to affirm the motion*

[Privateerkev]

It might make the Senate more interesting in between terms... :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

And then we will have many people complaining that their buildings are not built and their armies are not recruited :clown::clown:

[Privateerkev]

And then we will have many people complaining that their buildings are not built and their armies are not recruited :clown::clown:

I hope no one here would do that. If your army is not being recruited, or your building is not being built, you should definitely not complain in the Senate. The Senate is only for very serious business and I would hope that no one here would ever spam it up with such posts. :clown:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

2.4 – Wills & Inheritance: On his death, all of a Senator’s provinces and retinue are distributed according to the most recent valid Will. In order for a Will to be valid, it must have been posted in a public thread or PMed to econ21 or TinCow prior to the Senator’s death. Except as noted below, a Will provision is only valid to the extent that it names a living, of-age avatar that is controlled by another player as the inheritor of the province or retinue stated. A player's next avatar may only inherit a single province and a single retinue. A Will may name multiple Senators as inheritors, so long as each province and/or retinue is only bequeathed to a single Senator. Any provisions of the Will that do not meet these requirements will be invalid. Valid provisions of a Will will not be negated due to the existence of invalid provisions in the same Will. If there is no valid Will provision for an owned province, the Senator’s immediate Lord gains possession of the province. If the Senator also has no Lord, the Basileus gains possession of the province.

Now.. It is said that the Will is valid only if it 'names a living, of-age avatar that is controlled by another player as the inheritor of the province or retinue stated'.

So this means that I can not give a settlement conquered by me, managed by me, defended by me to my next avatar?
Why can't I make a Will that says 'I will give my province X and ancillary Y to my next avatar"?

[Privateerkev]

Now.. It is said that the Will is valid only if it 'names a living, of-age avatar that is controlled by another player as the inheritor of the province or retinue stated'.

So this means that I can not give a settlement conquered by me, managed by me, defended by me to my next avatar?
Why can't I make a Will that says 'I will give my province X and ancillary Y to my next avatar"?

There is also this: "A player's next avatar may only inherit a single province and a single retinue."

Your next avatar is an exception to the rule. You can give 1 province and 1 retinue to your next avatar. Otherwise, it can only be to an avatar that has a current different player.

So, in your will, you can leave province X and retinue Y to your next avatar. The rest has to go to avatars that are currently in the game and have different players.

[Ignoramus]

Just filled in a quick story over Ioannis Komnenos II's birth.

[flyd]

Wait, who was it that fought at Yerevan?

[Ignoramus]

Ituralde. I auto-resolved the battle, as he was away, and had given me leave to control his character.

[Ignoramus]

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/LOTR-1122-1.zip

Tried to assault Alexandria. It went...badly.

I should have a battle report up within the day. If possible, I'd like Kosmas' whereabouts to be unknown until I post it. :yes:

What were you thinking? :clown:

[Northnovas]

Last browsing shutting it down soon.
Will be out of play for the next 2 weeks though no one will notice. :embarassed:
Andres is the official spoke person for the House including swearing and breaking oaths paper work has already been submitted through channels.

[OverKnight]

I'm noticing, have a fun vacation! :2thumbsup:

[Privateerkev]

For those of you using the Caliph in your stories, keep in mind that I just killed him. :2thumbsup:

I apologize ahead of time if that messes up any stories but he insisted on joining the Jihad and wandering around Antioch. :clown:

[Ignoramus]

Regarding breaking the rules, there's nothing in the rules which say you can't build before replenishing armies.

[Privateerkev]

Regarding breaking the rules, there's nothing in the rules which say you can't build before replenishing armies.

spending priorities are such:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > buildings

Therefore: private armies > buildings

According to that, it seems you can't spend a dime on one thing until the items before it are satisfied. It's the thing that compels you to OOC to maintain the "props" to our avatar's power.

At least that is the way I read the rules. I'm more than willing to settle it IC or OOC. OOC we can just wait for TC to rule on it. IC, we can declare it a "rule dispute" and let the Rules dictate our next actions. :book:

[Ramses II CP]

Regarding breaking the rules, there's nothing in the rules which say you can't build before replenishing armies.

With all due respect, I hope you're asking a question instead of proceeding on your own interpretation of the rules again.

[GeneralHankerchief]

For those of you using the Caliph in your stories, keep in mind that I just killed him. :2thumbsup:

Different character. The game calls him Sultan, the players call him Caliph. Therefore, he's still alive.

[Privateerkev]

Different character. The game calls him Sultan, the players call him Caliph. Therefore, he's still alive.

He had the title "Caliph of Cairo." Of course there is now a new Caliph, but the old one is still dead. At least according to SS. You guys can feel free to ignore or retcon that if you wish but I thought it was something you'd want to know. :yes:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Then ignore it I shall.

[Privateerkev]

Then ignore it I shall.

My caliph can beat up your caliph. ~;p

[Ignoramus]

With all due respect, I hope you're asking a question instead of proceeding on your own interpretation of the rules again.

With all due respect, I don't think that's very complimentary.

Here are the powers regarding the Megas:

Megas Logothetes:
Requirements: Must have been elected Megas Logothetes
Influence: During Emergency Sessions called during his term, 2 + up to 5 Stat Influence, or the Senator's normal Influence, whichever is higher. For every term of 6 turns or more that a Senator serves as Megas Logothetes, he will receive a permanent +1 bonus to his Influence and a permanent increase of +1 to the maximum Stat Influence of his feudal rank. This bonus is cumulative for Senators who serve multiple terms as Megas Logothetes. The in-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus. The post-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus or to any Senator who ceased to be Megas Logothetes because he was impeached.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Megas Logothetes are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Senator’s other feudal ranks.
(2) Unless otherwise restricted by the rules, the Megas Logothetes can do anything he wants inside the game except use console cheats, which may be used only as specifically allowed by the Rules. Edicts are only binding on the Megas Logothetes to the extent that the Senate chooses to enforce them.
Limitations on Powers:
(1) The Megas Logothetes must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. With the exception of Prioritized Buildings, the Megas Logothetes is not required to build anything. However, if anything is built in a settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Megas Logothetes can build whatever he likes. The Megas Logothetes may upgrade a province’s walls at any time unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the Senator who owns the settlement.
(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over all prioritized buildings.
(3) The Megas Logothetes must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
(4) (4) The Megas Logothetes cannot disband a unit in a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet if the owner of the a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet gives orders which prevent such a disbanding. This Limitation does not apply to merging depleted units, which the Megas Logothetes may do freely.
(5) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.

Nowhere does it say that Armies take precedence over construction. Nowhere.

I am not trying to skew the rules for my benefit. In fact, the building of the church in Yerevan was not trying to manipulate the rules. It's jolly hard to remember every clause of the rules, especially where they don't exist.

[Rowan]

(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over all prioritized buildings.

Nowhere does it say that Armies take precedence over construction. Nowhere.


Actually it does say so in the rule 4.3:


4.3 – Army Replenishment: If a Private or Royal Army falls below the minimum strength level, all military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Army to minimum strength before money can be spent on other recruitment, unless the owner agrees otherwise. In the event of a conflict, a Royal Army takes priority over a Private Army. This rule does not apply to armies involved in a Civil War.


which is where PK gets his building order.

Edit: I think a "Megas cheat sheet" would be quite handy. Basically a list of things for Megas with all the rule interplays such as this written out.

Something like:
1. Post new save & report,
2. Wait 24 hrs,
3. Move
4. Replenish armies
5. build & other recruit
6. Press End Turn,
7. GOTO 1).

[Ignoramus]

It says that Rule 4.3 takes priority over prioritized buildings, not ordinary buildings. As I have no more prioritized buildings for my term, I can build normal buildings over army replenishment.

[Rowan]

Ok, I can see how you could read it that way. I think we just have to wait for TCs interpretation.

[OverKnight]

Ignoramus, if a private or royal army needs to brought up to minimum strength, you have to do it. Not only does it have precedence over priority building, it has it over any building. At least that's how I am reading it.

I was in a similar position in the test game. There was no way IC that I would have funded the resurreection of the French King's army once he had destroyed it against the Prince's allies, but OOC I had to follow the rules.

The armies rule is one of the few of the OOC non-partisan things a Megas has to follow, but it is very important to the balance and nature of the game that we do so.

[Zim]

I actually read those rules the same way Iggy did. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over prioritized buildings, which happen to take precedent over regular construction. So the last time this came up Iggy should have filled armies before building Makedonios' prioritized building, and since he had to queue that building before normal construction, it meant he had to fill up the armies before constructing anything. The prioritized building provided the link in the chain of requirements.

It isn't stated explicitly in the rules that 4.3 also takes precedence over regular construction (although perhaps the rules are intended to be read that way).

I actually mentioned in an IM discussion over the last time this came up that it made the prioritized building ability much more useful than I had thought. :clown:

[AussieGiant]

Guy's,

I brought this up IC and OOC previously. It's been confirmed that all recruiting for Royal and Private armies must occur before any building is queued up, whether prioritised or not.

The only section that gets the Megas out of this bind is "unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise.".

Now I'm pretty sure those who are not happy with what is occurring have not contacted the Megas and said "Sure, build the church before replenishing my forces!" :balloon2:

[AussieGiant]

Just a quick note to say I'll be off-line while I move house over the next few days.

I'll be watching from work but it will take a little while to get back online from home.

[TinCow]

spending priorities are such:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > buildings

It would be better to look at it like this:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > everything else

The first three are MANDATORY. If any money at all is spent that turn, the first three things (RAs, PAs, PBs) must be taken care of first and in the order indicated. Once all of those have been dealt with properly, then whatever money is left over can be spent on everything else (buildings, misc recruitment, forts, mercs, agents, bribes, etc.). If there are still required RA, PA, or PB expenditures to be made, the only option the Megas has is whether to fund them or whether to save all his money and not spend any of it.

That said, I see how Igno is interpreting this, and his take has some validity. The wording of 4.3 does specifically refer to other recruitment, not all other monetary expenditures. The above paragraph is my recollection of how it was intended, but I think an error may have been made in the language drafting. It might be a good idea to fix this via CA at the next session.

[Ramses II CP]

With all due respect, I don't think that's very complimentary.

Here are the powers regarding the Megas:

Megas Logothetes:
Requirements: Must have been elected Megas Logothetes
Influence: During Emergency Sessions called during his term, 2 + up to 5 Stat Influence, or the Senator's normal Influence, whichever is higher. For every term of 6 turns or more that a Senator serves as Megas Logothetes, he will receive a permanent +1 bonus to his Influence and a permanent increase of +1 to the maximum Stat Influence of his feudal rank. This bonus is cumulative for Senators who serve multiple terms as Megas Logothetes. The in-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus. The post-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus or to any Senator who ceased to be Megas Logothetes because he was impeached.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Megas Logothetes are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Senator’s other feudal ranks.
(2) Unless otherwise restricted by the rules, the Megas Logothetes can do anything he wants inside the game except use console cheats, which may be used only as specifically allowed by the Rules. Edicts are only binding on the Megas Logothetes to the extent that the Senate chooses to enforce them.
Limitations on Powers:
(1) The Megas Logothetes must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. With the exception of Prioritized Buildings, the Megas Logothetes is not required to build anything. However, if anything is built in a settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Megas Logothetes can build whatever he likes. The Megas Logothetes may upgrade a province’s walls at any time unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the Senator who owns the settlement.
(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over all prioritized buildings.
(3) The Megas Logothetes must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
(4) (4) The Megas Logothetes cannot disband a unit in a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet if the owner of the a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet gives orders which prevent such a disbanding. This Limitation does not apply to merging depleted units, which the Megas Logothetes may do freely.
(5) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.

Nowhere does it say that Armies take precedence over construction. Nowhere.

I am not trying to skew the rules for my benefit. In fact, the building of the church in Yerevan was not trying to manipulate the rules. It's jolly hard to remember every clause of the rules, especially where they don't exist.

My problem is that this exact question was asked and answered during the test game, it was asked and answered the last time you went off on a wild hare, and, frankly, it's an obvious underlying assumption of the rule base. The rules don't have to say 'Strator ek Lesvou cannot destroy all buildings in Constantinople and disband the Emperor's entire army...' in literal, useless detail, instead they lay out the powers available as a general base. We had a whole test game just to sort out these kinds of absurd little abuses of the system.

And, as far as I can tell, you weren't paying attention or just don't care.

Furthermore the real point here, and the real problem with handling this 'IC' the first time, is that these aren't meant to be laws that the Caesar can manipulate to his advantage, they're OOC rules that all of the players mutually respect and follow in order to help each other have fun. You were unpunished the first time you did this, and, exactly as predicted, you have almost immediately done so again. You won't be the last, you can rest assured that even now someone is poring over the rules looking for any slight technicality to harm their supposedly IC opponent.

There's an essential difference, IMHO, between a character abusing his power and a player abusing the rules. I know very well that not everyone sees the game the same way I do but I'm quite hopeful we'll get a better idea of where this group of players stands on the matter this time.

[TinCow]

I've read this in some more depth now and the rules are definitely not as clear on this as they should be. This is what I intended it to be (I think, it's been a while):

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > everything else

But in practice it really does read like what PK is saying:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > buildings

Under PK's interpretation (which I think is accurate), the 'everything else' is actually not covered at all. Under the current rules as written, forts, towers, agents, etc. (everything that isn't a military unit or a building) can be built regardless of any RAs, PAs, or PBs. That isn't working as it was intended to. All that stuff should be dumped at the bottom along with the buildings. I will try and come up with some langauge to fix this that can be voted on at the next Senate.

That said, the rules are pretty clear that at least when it comes to hiring military units and funding construction, the following priority of investment must be used:

Royal Army > Private Army > Prioritized Building > Building.

The RA and PA part comes directly from 4.3 and is obvious. The PA over PB and PB over Building part comes from Megas' limitation #2.

[edit] I will try and write up a plain English 'Guide' on how to be the Megas so that the job is easier for other people in the future.

[TinCow]

Eek....


It says that Rule 4.3 takes priority over prioritized buildings, not ordinary buildings. As I have no more prioritized buildings for my term, I can build normal buildings over army replenishment.

If Igno has indeed completed all prioritized buildings, he is technically correct. Unfortunately, the wording of 4.3 skews from what was intended, as far as I can remember it. 4.3 specifically states that RAs and PAs take priority over "military recruitment." This definitely doesn't cover buildings. Megas' Limitation #2 also only specifically states that 4.3 takes priority over "prioritized buildings," not all construction in general. Thus, completing all prioritized buildings makes this bit inoperative.

Technically, as the rules are currently written, I think Igno is correct (assuming he has finished all prioritized buildings). This is, however, a loophole in the rules and not how it was intended to operate. I will propose a CA to fix this problem at the next Senate session (not too far off). For now, Igno has not technically violated a rule as far as I can tell. I would greatly appreciate it the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, would be obeyed until this can be rectified.

Sorry for the multiple posts, they come at various levels of caffeination.

[Privateerkev]

I would love to see this fixed. As written, it is technically legal for a Megas to just gift the treasury every turn to another faction. Or spam agents and avoid recruitment. Or build a massive navy. Or build in every province and neglect recruitment.

All of these take away the power of an independent army. Private armies are very much the building block of power in this game. Or at least one of them. If the Megas can use loopholes to deny or delay it's formation/rebuilding, then it really kills the power of some of the avatars.

I'd also like to address building private armies on the opposite side of the Empire or stranding them on islands. Both are "technically" legal but again they chip away at this crucial building block of power.

I wouldn't mind making the private/royal armies smaller if we could guarantee that the owner would get them in a turn no matter the circumstances.

[Zim]

Hello all.

In the battle I played Kosmas was said to be "captured" (despite no ransom offered. :clown:). I was thinking of doing a story or two about it, but I probably won't be able to now. :sweatdrop:

So I'm withdrawing my request to delay responses to Kosmas' death. :yes:

Battle report should be up pretty soon. Only really notable events from it are that midway thrgouh the battle it looked as if the enemy army might all route. Sadly, that turned out not to be the case (at least, those that routed regrouped quickly). :clown:

[Ramses II CP]

My sympathies on your loss Z (:shame:), I hope you didn't attack just because I said I thought you could win. :laugh4:

I'm rather curious, what actually killed your avatar? Did you try running through those middle tier arab spearmen, or did your morale break down?

You better be lining up another character as we speak. Wouldn't be LotR without you. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[Zim]

Well, I suppose our conversation gave me the idea I might be able to win. :clown:

Of more effect was actually winning siege assaults with those kinds of odds. :yes:

It was the middle tier spearmen that did Kosmas in, when he had to shore up my crappy militia spearmen unit (although the militia did better than the "elite" Varangians). His morale broke at the very last second, when only he and one other bodyguard member was left. :sweatdrop:

I would like Kosmas' final epitaph to be "Varangians suck".

I'm not quite sure when I'm getting back into the game. Some time in the next couple of terms, I think. :yes:


My sympathies on your loss Z (:shame:), I hope you didn't attack just because I said I thought you could win. :laugh4:

I'm rather curious, what actually killed your avatar? Did you try running through those middle tier arab spearmen, or did your morale break down?

You better be lining up another character as we speak. Wouldn't be LotR without you. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sorry for your loss, Zim. That really sucks.

Two questions though:

1) What were your chances of winning?
2) Do you still have plans on doing a battle report?

[Zim]

1. Rather pathetically, the computer put my odds at 1:1. :embarassed:

2. I'll still do a battle report. :yes:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

If Kosmas is dead then Efstathios must swear an Oath to someone else ...

The House of Asteri is filled with crazy people who go against the odds and get their avatars end up dead! :dizzy2::laugh4:

Not that Efstathios is any better :clown:

[Ituralde]

I'm back! Enjoyed my holidays but had time to follow the forums.

Two avatars down already, and the Megas is annoying people left and right! Awesome! :2thumbsup:

[Andres]

Battle report is up :bow:

Welcome back Ituralde :2thumbsup:

[Warmaster Horus]

Welcome back Ituralde!


Two avatars down already, and the Megas is annoying people left and right! Awesome!

Doesn't that remind you of KotR...

[TinCow]

For the record, I allowed Igno to block the Jihad (he only blocked 1 of the 2 crossing, but apparently the French then moved onto the other one, causing a blockage that wasn't there when Igno made his moves) because apparently fixing this would have required a lot more time to be spent and I want to keep the game moving. In addition, blocking the crossing with a fleet is a lot different from blocking it with a tiny army IC, because the Jihad army can't just stomp the fleet and keep moving. For this very reason, naval control of the Bosphorus has been of massive military importance for nearly all of human history.

I hope my explanation is acceptable to everyone, as I saw a difference in the circumstances.

[Ramses II CP]

Of course if the AI weren't completely incompetent they could just hire a jihad mercenary ship and only have to go two steps out of the way to get around the blockage. Seems like a very similar situation to the refusal to attack small armies in a choke point, unless we want to do the jihad shuffle (Letting them get as far as, say, the mountains south of Sarkel and then removing the ship so they start back for Con., then putting the ship back when they get close, etc.). AI abuse hardly seems warranted. :dizzy2:

:egypt:

[TinCow]

Again, unlike in the previous situation, no one would have expected this to result in a reverse movement of the Jihad, as the other crossing was open. It just happened that the French Crusade moved there during its turn (before the Jihad got to move) and this then resulted in both routes being blocked. He then asked me what to do. I said I would prefer if it he replayed it, but that if that would take a lot of time he didn't have to. Apparently it would have taken a lot of time, as he did not.

Yes, I'm already regretting sticking my foot into this strategic AI issue in the first place. I think that was an error and I should just have let it be. Trying to figure out what is good and what is bad in this kind of situation may cause more problems than just dealing with the moronic AI as it is.

[Privateerkev]

We could just pretend that the French did it to help us. :shrug:

And yeah, trying to save the AI from itself seems like a losing battle. :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

I hope it's obvious I wasn't complaining about the solution, but about the AI, which is always happy to abuse itself even when we aren't trying to abuse it. :laugh4: The jihad shuffle is just a particularly hilarious example of AI self abuse because if the AI didn't get map information it shouldn't have for it's pathing then the shuffle wouldn't work. One of those cases where the programmers tried to help the AI out and ended up making a royal mess of it. It'd be better if there were a simple sort of '+1' solution to cause the AI to wait at least one turn before deciding to go 15 turns out of the way, or even better if the AI could reasonably pick a good defensive terrain spot and wait it out there.

While I'm dreaming why not have the AI perform jihads the way a player would, conquering everything along a reasonably direct path to the target, eh?

:egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Point of order:


A noble asked to be adopted by my younger brother, Andronikos. Acting on behalf of my brother, I refused(As no one controls Andronikos, the decision falls to the Megas).

I was under the impression that this avatar was reserved for flyd once it came of age.