OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think Igno used this Basileus' power:


(7) Twice per full 10 turn Megas Logothetes term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Senator to themselves or any other Senator. This power cannot be used on any Senator who is in a state of War with the Basileus.

Also.. perhaps we could call IC CA's differently? Charter Edicts?

[_Tristan_]

I think Igno used this Basileus' power:


If that's the case, that's a bit lame, taking the fact that PK is away into consideration.

It also would be nice to know if that is considered a use of that power to keep track of the number of times it has been used.

[Rowan]

Also.. perhaps we could call IC CA's differently? Charter Edicts?

Or OOC ones Rules Amendments. In any case I don't think it makes any sense that TC's CA that got rid of the Private Armies is at rule level equal to Igno's loyalty-CA. One is part of the OOC framework that makes this game possible, the other is purely IC. (And if I ever get to be a top bun I'll "forget" to swear loyalty just to make my point.)

And I think he used Basileus' Power #19:



(19) The two offices of Lord High Chancellor and Lord High Steward, as well as the Privy Seal, can be assigned by the Basileus to any Senator. Only one of them may be assigned to each general, and each adds +1 to that Senator's Stat Influence. If the Basileus chooses to keep these retinue himself, he does not receive the Stat Influence bonus. (Added by CA 3.1.)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Perhaps he used that power indeed.

And I agree with you. The CA's proposed by TC are not equal to the ones Igno proposed. One of them are OOC and others IC ones.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Could some one correct me..
What will the new rules tell about the ships? Can everybody board and take command of the fleet that is not in the port?
And can everyone merge his fleet with another one(assuming that there are no avatars on it)?
And finally, is it possible to merge with a fleet where are agents on it(no avatars but just agents)? Agents belong to Megas and this is why I asked this.

[AussieGiant]

I recommend EVERYONE checks these types of threads out from KotR.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=92210

This is an example of what I am talking about.

Not one of those CA' is OOC....there are about 18 voting polls from the last game and I'd say there are about 2 or 3 CA's which related to OOC rules. ALL the rest are IC CA's which if passed go into permanent effect and will lead to IC issues just like Edicts.

There should be no confusion here gentlemen. There are certainly OOC CA's in which the mechanism of a CA is used to have the rules changed. This is done because of the stringent nature of getting a CA passed AND the fact that CA's are PERMANENT until countered, removed or their timing expired (if there was a timing part of the CA). This characteristic is an IC consideration that also works OOC when applied of the rules of the game.

In essence it works well in both instances.

CA's have been traditionally IC. The issue with this game was the new rule set which had to be substantially altered in order to get this game workable. There was an unprecedented amount of CA's which related to OOC Rules. This is not the normal use of a CA though.

CA's are IC for the most part. The only thing you need to do is determine whether a CA is an IC issue or an OOC issue...it should not be too hard to work out.

In future TC can certainly ensure that OOC CA's are marked accordingly.

In this situation Igno is using CA's as they are designed. He wants a blanket, ongoing rule that all of you must abide by OR face IC issues. Swearing fealty and recruiting. If he used an edict he would have to re submit these every Megas term. He doesn't want to do this so he is using a CA to avoid this.

This is why CA's and Edicts are distinguished in the powers of the various ranks. They are different.

Hope this clarifies everything a little more.

[Rowan]

AG, Thanks for the clarification. It makes me feel a lot better about all this. Being one of the newbie players I don't have the experience from the previous games to draw on and, frankly speaking, the tone of this game has been one of rules lawyering and OOC punishments :(

And in the same vein, I think we should have a separate mechanism for rule changes because character influence shouldn't play part in those votes. Luckily the changes this far have had a fairly universal acceptance so this hasn't been an issue.

[AussieGiant]

Glad to be of help Rowan.

And yes, this game has had a rough start but I hope now we can settle down into a far more IC driven game where we stay IC for the most part.

When TC updates the rule changes then we can see in one thread how everything will be handled.

To TC when he gets on...where can we view all CA's that are in affect?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Now, could someone help me with my questions too.


Could some one correct me..
What will the new rules tell about the ships? Can everybody board and take command of the fleet that is not in the port?
And can everyone merge his fleet with another one(assuming that there are no avatars on it)?
And finally, is it possible to merge with a fleet where are agents on it(no avatars but just agents)? Agents belong to Megas and this is why I asked this.

~:)

[Ramses II CP]

As I understand it, yes, you can board any ship that isn't at a dock owned by another House. Since those ships then become yours, you can merge them with any fleet you come across (Not at the docks of another House or containing another avatar) and thus take control of those ships as well.

Agents do not defend an army stack from being taken so I would take for granted that they won't defend a stack of ships from being taken either.

:egypt:

[Ituralde]

AG, Thanks for the clarification. It makes me feel a lot better about all this. Being one of the newbie players I don't have the experience from the previous games to draw on and, frankly speaking, the tone of this game has been one of rules lawyering and OOC punishments :(

And in the same vein, I think we should have a separate mechanism for rule changes because character influence shouldn't play part in those votes. Luckily the changes this far have had a fairly universal acceptance so this hasn't been an issue.

I think the special part of making OOC CAs was that people were supposed to vote on them OOC and there were no weighed votes, meaning everybody's vote counted the same for the purpose of these rule changing CAs.

I agree that there has been entirely too much focus on rules lawyering and OOC punishment. I am confident that this will get less and less the more comfortable we all get with the rules and in the meantime don't hesitate to ask, that's what this thread is for.

[TinCow]

I see where the confusion is coming from on the enforcement of game rules and CAs. I don't have an easy solution to that except to say just try and trust me to handle it properly. I am going to do my best to keep all conflict resolution IC in every possible case. Any CA which is by nature an IC piece of legislation can almost certainly be resolved in an IC manner. If so, I will not be using any 'mod' powers to uphold the law and the players will have to use the various IC means to do it. I will simply use my judgment to determine what is IC and what is OOC on a case-by-case basis as problems arise.

In the particular situation of the CA being discussed, since it is fully IC I would not use 'mod' powers to enforce it. I reserve the right to do that for rule violations which threaten to 'break' the game, but I doubt there will be many IC CAs which would pose that problem.

Please note that the entire 'code of conduct' thing is in force in spirit only. I need to re-write a bunch of stuff, including that, due to the recent rule changes and discussions we have had. You don't need to creep around on tip-toes for fear of getting spanked by me for breaking a rule. Do your best to follow the rules and ask questions when you need to. All problems will be resolved IC if possible. If it's not possible, warnings will be given before any more extensive action will be taken. I sincerely believe it is likely that there will never be another case where I have to issue an OOC punishment for a rule violation.


To TC when he gets on...where can we view all CA's that are in affect?

All rules that have been modified by CAs have a notation after them in the rule set. It will say (Modified by CA X.Y) or something after the text.

[Cecil XIX]

Beg your pardon GH, but I believe you've calculated the influence wrong, as per Tincow's post here. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2029665&postcount=1737)

Off the top of my head, Ioannis's authority, and thus his influence, is three, Nevuolos is the Megas so his influence is 2, Methodios being the Caesar gives him stat influence for a total of 2, and Armatos got rid of some bad retinue/traits and now has an influence of 3. (Huzzah)

I actually kept my own tally, although I wasn't as thorough as I would have been if I had wanted to base the results off it. Still, to the best of my knowledge it's accurate for the above, the Comes and Strators, and Apionnas.

CA E3.1
For - Apionnas (1), Armatos (3), Klimis (1), Ioannis (3), Zigavinos (1), Andronikos (1): 10/20
Against - Theophylaktos (1), Aleksios(1), Tiverios(1), Nevoulos (2), Methodios (2): 7/10

CA E3.2
For - Apionnas (1), Armatos (3), Klimis (1), Ioannis (3), Aleksios (1), Zigavinos (1), Andronikos (1): 11/20
Against - Theophylaktos (1), Tiverios (1), Nevoulos (2), Methodios (2): 6/10

[Smowz]

This ones a nailbiter all right. If Cecils figures are correct it means neither pass....

The senators all get their calculators out!!!

[Rowan]

I forgot to vote :oops::furious3:

[_Tristan_]

Beg your pardon GH, but I believe you've calculated the influence wrong, as per Tincow's post here. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2029665&postcount=1737)


I think Cecil got the calculations right.

[Ignoramus]

You also forget that woad& fangs and AussieGiant get +1 to their influence due to holding the Privy Seal and being Lord High Chancellor respectively.

Edit: And the traits that Ioannis has do add up to 4 authority, it's just that the stat bar only shows 3.

[ULC]

You also forget that woad& fangs and AussieGiant get +1 to their influence due to holding the Privy Seal and being Lord High Chancellor respectively.

Edit: And the traits that Ioannis has do add up to 4 authority, it's just that the stat bar only shows 3.

Yes, but was the transfer not in effect AFTER the session began? If so, then it doesn't count.

[Rowan]

Here we go again :uhoh:

[_Tristan_]

Plus the fact that the Privy Seal may not have been Ignoramus to give (per Aleksios' will)

[ULC]

Here we go again :uhoh:


You wish me to point out the legality of this IC? If so, then I will, although I can't see how I can bring it up...

[pevergreen]

IMO, He can move it around, but does not influence get calculated at the start of the session, TC said that it would be calculated off the latest save before this session was called, so I think W&F and AG do not get the +1.

[TinCow]

Influence is calculated at the start of a session, not later. This is the specific reason why oaths cannot be sworn or broken during a Senate session: people need to be able to know what the influence is while debating and voting. If it can change right in the middle of voting, it is too chaotic. The proper influence is the influence that existed at the moment that the emergency session was called. Subsequent changes to influence only go into effect after the session is over.

[Rowan]

You wish me to point out the legality of this IC? If so, then I will, although I can't see how I can bring it up...

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to pick on you, just tried to express my frustration.

FWIW I think both Aleksios' will and Ioannis' grant of Privy Seal were perfectly legal.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sorry guys, Monday is my bad day. I'll try to get to the influence issue later tonight, but from glancing over it I think I'm in the wrong.

[TinCow]

Thanks for all your hard work GH. I promise after this residual emergency session mess is sorted out that you can ignore all future GM-type stuff.

As a brief heads-up to the everyone, I am still pretty busy in general. I've got a decent amount to catch up on at work due to my vacation and my wife and I are in the process of buying (and moving into) a new house. This means my free time will be reduced below its previous level for the next couple months. I do not really expect this to impact LotR in any way, but I just want to give some notice about it. If I seem to be shirking my duties or otherwise falling behind on necessary work, please do not hesitate to smack me over the head and tell me to get to work.

[GeneralHankerchief]

No problem, TC. Anytime you need me to help out, just ask.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

...please do not hesitate to smack me over the head...

No problem! Always glad to help you with that! :viking:

:clown:

[TinCow]

I have updated the Library a bit to try and take into account the changes while I was gone. Everyone, please take a moment to review the Table of Political Alliances and Houses (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1925729&postcount=4) and your avatar's bio post to make sure they are accurate. Specifically, I am looking for errors in rank, lord/vassals, and provinces. I think I've got the oaths right, but I suspect I've missed a few provinces that have shifted or been conquered while I was gone. Please help me double-check this. Note that influence has not been updated in that table.

[Andres]

Back from holiday, so Savvas is no longer an inactive avatar :bow:

[TinCow]

The recent confusion about the OOC/IC CAs got me thinking. I think the current CA/Edict system is obsolete and can be reformed to improve the game. The current system is one of the few things that has remained fully intact since econ21 wrote it for the original WotS game. I think that the LotR game has now evolved to a level where this original system needs a bit of tweaking.

The basic problem is that the current CA/Edict system does not take into account the difference between the OOC rules and IC legislation. I think we need to split these two, specifically keeping IC changes entirely in the IC realm. I like the current IC enforcement system a great deal and I want to rely on it for all IC issues, even if they are violations of CAs. If a CA is by nature IC, I don't see any reason why its enforcement cannot also be dealt with IC. So, I propose a three tiered system for legislation.


Edicts - Require a simple majority of influence to pass. Are in effect only for a single Megas term. Require IC enforcement. Cannot contradict the Game Rules.

Charter Amendments - Require a 2/3 majority of influence to pass. Are in effect permanently or until repealed by another CA. Require IC enforcement. Cannot contradict the Game Rules.

Rule Changes - Require a 2/3 majority of unweighted voting to pass (1 vote per player). TinCow can veto any proposal, but does not vote. Permanently changes the Game Rules. Can be enforced IC or OOC depending on the circumstances.

The idea of this system would be essentially to keep the system as it is, but to elevate changes to the OOC mechanics to a higher level, keeping them separate from all IC issues. On a practical level, I would use my veto on Rule Changes to keep all IC issues confined to the CA level of legislation. This would include things like the two CAs proposed at the recent emergency session. I see no reason at all why these kinds of things cannot be enforced exclusively IC. Rule Changes with potential OOC enforcement issues need to be restricted entirely to fundamental game mechanics, not politically motivated legislation.

Thoughts?

[ULC]

I would very much be in favor of this. It provides the clear distinction that makes it easier to separate IC and OOC, although, I must ask, say we were to propose the "University" now? Which section would it fall under?

[TinCow]

I would allow that as a Rule Change, since it requires console editing of traits which cannot really be controlled via IC enforcement.

I considered how to codify what is IC and what is OOC, but all possible solutions were very messy and prone to errors. The best option is simply to let me make that call on a case-by-case basis, which is easily and simply done with the veto power. I am growing increasingly inclined towards focusing a lot of vague determinations like this on my own judgment calls without further guidelines. We have been in the habit of legislating them in detail because in WotS and KotR the 'mod' (econ21) was also a player and thus had some conflict of interests. Since I am only running the game, not playing it, I see no reason why we can't break away from this trend and just leave the decisions up to me or whoever else I give the responsibility to. Yes, I am prone to error, but I think in the end that simplicity would be better for the game. This is another step towards fully embracing a 'GM' role for the game in the rules themselves. I now realize that omitting a dedicated GM role from the game was the biggest error I made when writing the original rule system. The game requires one, so we might as well use it in every situation where it can simplify the system.

[ULC]

So, to clarify a point, anything that might fall under direct game modding would thus be rules change? For instance, the intended unit balance update could either be passed off as simply a rules change, or could be played IC as military reform. Thus, can players to a degree decide or tip how something is to be interpreted?

[TinCow]

Anything that requires a mod of the game would have to be a rule change. You can't enforce the use of a mod via IC methods. On a practical level, my decision would turn on whether a piece of legislation is motivated IC or OOC. If it is motivated by the player's avatar and is designed to result in political gains/changes within the IC world, I would probably veto it as a rule change, though I can't guarantee that in every case because it all depends on the specific circumstances. If legislation is motivated by a simple desire to improve the game for everyone or fix a flaw, that will generally be fine for a rule change vote even if it has IC implications. I don't really think the difference should be hard to determine, though. Without exception, every player here is highly intelligent and we know perfectly well when something is being done IC or OOC. Besides, there is always a way to get around a veto: convince me to change my mind.

[ULC]

Okay, thank you TC :bow:

I was thinking of roleplaying such things IC, but not a on a rule basis. For instance, like the suggestion above, I would role play it as a set of military reforms IC, and keeping it IC, once it passes as a rules change. Of course, that is murky waters, isn't it?

[AussieGiant]

It all sounds particularly practical to me.

We should get that all sorted out as soon as possible.

[Rowan]

Thoughts?

Quite excellent! :2thumbsup:

[Northnovas]

Back from holiday, so Savvas is no longer an inactive avatar :bow:

Good to hear I was waiting. Welcome Back! :sneaky:

[Cecil XIX]

A very good idea. Tincow. I think the two keys to having this game running smoothly are to have as many issues handled IC as possible, and to make sure those issues that are handled OOC have little room for interpretation. This'll definitely help.

[Ramses II CP]

IMHO the dictatorship is the single most efficient small government form ever invented (If you have a good dictator). In other words, Hail TC! The three tier system seems fine to me as well, and really like a quite slight modification as long as we stick to our common sense. I have no problem letting someone simply draw the lines as they see them so long as that person can clearly describe those lines to the rest of us, and Tincow has proven he can do that IMHO.

In fact, I have only one significant problem with this system, and that's the fact that it denies the rest of us the chance to interact with Lothar's intellectual heir.

Vissa's bit on the table seemed accurate, FYI. :yes:

:egypt:

[TinCow]

Ok, I'll write up a CA proposal for that legislation to be proposed and voted on at the next senate session. The current rank limitations on proposing Edicts and CAs will remain the same, but I'm going to let anyone propose unimited numbers of Rule Changes. There's no reason to place IC restrictions on those since they won't be IC by nature anyway.

I would also like to change the term from Charter Amendment to Codex Amendment. Charter Amendment simply doesn't make any sense at all. There is no Charter, either IC or OOC, so what in the world are we talking about when we say that? Codex is a latin term for book which is commonly used to describe a set of laws (i.e. Codex Justinianus), so it makes sense for Byzantium. Plus, it has the exact same acronym (CA) as the term we're used to using, so we can just keep calling things CAs without a problem.

It may also be a good idea to codify the role of GM in the actual rules, for the sake of clarity. Something like...


1.7 - Game Master: TinCow will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game and enforcement of the Game Rules. TinCow can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses.

This doesn't really say anything or change anything, but it at least creates some kind of basis for my position and also makes it legal for me to put someone like GH in charge of the game for short periods when I can't be around. This is mainly just to make me more comfortable, since I've essentially assumed these powers over the course of the game when I've had no real legal basis to do so. We can call this the Dictator For Life legislation.

[Ituralde]

Great stuff! :2thumbsup:

This should help us overcome the whole IC/OOC insecurity this game has suffered from and pave the way to some relentless IC conflict without having to worry about OOC rule breaking all the time!

[AussieGiant]

Have we worked out the CA voting situation yet?

[TinCow]

I have not personally reviewed the influence, but no one has disagreed with Cecil's calculations of the various influences in this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2030549&postcount=1763). Since the various + to stat ancillaries were not distributed until after the emergency session started, their bonuses do not count. The same applies to rank changes as a result of oaths sworn by OK and GH to AG (if there was any influence change as a result of that).

The only suspect situation is Ignoramus' authority count of 3. He claims his traits give him a +4 to authority, but that his avatar only shows +3. This +1 difference is not enough to change the results on CA E3.1, so that one fails regardless. That said, the +1 would have made the difference for CA E3.2. However, M2TW calculates stats in various ways and has hidden traits as well, such as the base bonuses to loyalty and piety which are given via invisible traits. Unless someone can show me that the +3 being shown on Ignoramus' avatar is an actual bug, that stat will be used.

So, in summary, CA E3.1 fails, period. CA E3.2 fails, unless Ignoramus' missing authority is shown to be due to a bug instead of hidden game mechanics.

[AussieGiant]

Great, thanks TC.

We'll get moving now I hope.

[TinCow]

I have (finally) updated the rules with all of the CA 5.1 changes. Due to the extensive editing this required, I have not put my usual (Modified by CA X.X) notation on the changes, as that would have resulted in an absurd number of notations.

I have also included notes on the Megas and Exarch guides indicating that they are currently obsolete due to the 5.1 changes. I will update the guides eventually to take into account the changes, but that might take a week or two.

Also, the first part of the Code of Conduct has been changed from this:


Do not violate the LotR Game Rules (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1999919&postcount=4). Edicts may be freely violated, but Rules may not. If a Rule is violated and another player protests this violation either publicly or by sending a PM to TinCow (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=6193), a warning will be sent to the player who violated the Rule. A second Rule violation will result in punishment. The level of punishment will be determined by TinCow alone and will be designed to be proportionate to the harm of the rule that has been violated. Unintentional rule violations are still rule violations, though a lack of malice will be taken into account when issuing a punishment.

Punishments can include, but are not limited to:
Temporary breaking of oaths and a ban on reswearing.
Temporary loss of all rights to a PA/RA.
Confiscation of Land.
Temporary suspension from LotR.
Permanent suspension from LotR.

If you are unsure whether an action you want to take will violate a Rule, send a PM to TinCow (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=6193) or make a proper post in the Rule Interpretation thread (coming soon). Ignorance of the Rules is not an excuse, though it will be taken into account when determining a punishment. You will be given as much help as you need to understand how to play the game, but it is still your responsibility to know the Rules and to obey them. When in doubt, follow the spirit of the Rules and use them as they are intended to be used, even if there is a way to exploit the language to do otherwise.

to this:


Do not violate the LotR Game Rules (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1999919&postcount=4). IC legislation may be freely violated (though it may result in IC consequences), but Game Rules may not. If at all possible, Game Rule violations will be handled exclusively IC. If IC handling is not possible, the punishment will be designed to rectify the error rather than to punish the perpetrator, unless the violation was intentional and malicious. Intentional and malicious violations can result in temporary or permanent suspension from the game. In all cases, the action to be taken will be determined by TinCow and will be designed to minimize the disruption to the game and maximize enjoyment.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Again, sorry for not being active either in an OOC (finishing up the Influence mess) or an IC (Making an SoT, initially moving my character) role. At the moment RL has gotten more fun/interesting so as a result I'm spending less time on the .Org. I'll try to push my involvement up back to an acceptable level.

Also, TC, while you were away there was some discussion about removing inactive avatars (BananaBob's name came up the most, IIRC). Is the plan to off them once and for all at the start of the next Senate session?

[_Tristan_]

The names of Neokaisareitis, Sarantinos, Ek Korinthiou, or Eirinikos come to mind when mentioning Inactive avatars...

New ones could always be recruited if these people come back...

Lemon hasn't been on for two months...
Byblos for almost 3
Bananabob last post dates back a month
and Ichigo hasn't make an apparition here for a long time though he's still active on the .Org.

Those avatars are asking to be killed off...

EDIT : Oops !! In my mind, we were at the start of September... Hopefully, TC got it right...

[TinCow]

The relevant avatars are Philippos Eirinikos (Ichigo), Tarasios Sarantinos (Byblos), and Anastasios Neokaisareitis (The Lemongate). I checked with Ichigo and he confirmed he is not returning and can be killed off. Byblos has been gone for 4 months and TLG has been gone for 3.5 months. All three will thus be killed off the next time I actually do something to the save game (which could well be the next Senate session). BananaBob is borderline at the moment. He has been gone for 2 months, but PK previously said that he had been in touch with BB and was going to contact him via email to see what was going on. However, since PK is himself inactive now, this has led nowhere. I will probably give BananaBob one more Megas term to reappear before killing him off, just to be sure.

[AussieGiant]

Again, sorry for not being active either in an OOC (finishing up the Influence mess) or an IC (Making an SoT, initially moving my character) role. At the moment RL has gotten more fun/interesting so as a result I'm spending less time on the .Org. I'll try to push my involvement up back to an acceptable level.


OH OH!! I know what that is!!! Giiiiirrrrrlllllss!!!

GH has a girlfriend na na naaa na naaaaa!!!

I'm soooo juvenile...IT'S GREAT!!! :egypt:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Thanks AG. That actually did make me LOL. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Anyways, it's more a group of friends and just more freedom than anything else.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Thanks AG. That actually did make me LOL. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Anyways, it's more a group of friends and just more freedom than anything else.

So no girlfriend? ~:(



Edit: :clown:

[flyd]

Anyways, it's more a group of friends and just more freedom than anything else.

So, what you're trying to say is you'll be too busy looking for a girlfriend? :beam:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'll tell you guys what, since you're so clearly interested in my romantic pursuits (:tongue:), as soon as a proper lady comes along you shall be the first to know. :yes: :laugh4:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I'm fine with that :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

If you have any sense what you're looking for is actually a series of not-quite-so proper ladies. :belly: :cheerleader: :nurse: :gorgeous:

:egypt:

[AussieGiant]

He's pulling the wool over everyone's eyes!! :beam:

He's up to his '30 dollar CK boxer shorts' in action, and he's just too much of a gentleman to spill the beans!! :balloon2:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Somehow, this picture you've painted is going to work its way into the game storyline.

[flyd]

P.S. Smowz, when an army is transported by a fleet, there is a limit of two army units per ship. It's an ancient, ancient rule, written down in an odd and hidden place, Charter section 1.1. You're not quite done assembling your flotilla yet.

[TinCow]

Yeah, that rule is about as old as they come. It was one of econ21's custom PBM 'House Rules' from well before WOTS to make the game more challenging.

[Smowz]

Oops, okay I will return my army to shore and keep gathering my flotilla.

[AussieGiant]

Somehow, this picture you've painted is going to work its way into the game storyline.

And knowing you GH, I'm sure it will be an excellent story, creating wonderful depth and colour to this visual feast of information. :clown:

[Ignoramus]

What's the situation with the Privy Seal, Lord High Chancellor, and Lord High Steward retinue? Could you please transfer them to Andonikos Komnenos, Appionas Vringos, and Pavlos Chrysovergos respectively.

[Ignoramus]

I've just checked the save, and Ioannis should have 5 authority. 1 for the trait "Sharp", 1 for the trait "Renowned Victor", and 3 for the trait "Utterly Pragmatic". He has no negative traits at all, or any negative avatars.

[Kagemusha]

I just wanted to tell you guys that my computer problems are now solved and im back in the game.:2thumbsup:

[Ramses II CP]

I don't know much about the MTWII traits system, but a good test would seem to be using the console to remove those from the avatar and then adding them back. If there was something wrong with the way they were assigned that might clear it. Alternately, to test if there's a bug in the SS traits themselves, go back to OK's emperor and add them to him to see how they alter his authority (Removing them first if they're already present, etc.).

Is it possible that, since Ioannis is a starting avatar, the SS guys altered him to try to create a weaker successor to Aleksios?

:egypt:

[TinCow]

I'm at work and can't download SS 4.1 to check (and BBB 2.1 isn't available anymore) but I grabbed BBB 3.0 there are no hidden traits in that version that impact authority. I am beginning to suspect that this may be a bug. I am also having vague recollections of something like this occuring in KotR as well, which just kind of fixed itself. Do any of the KotR veterans remember something like that with Kaiser Henry, perhaps?

Can someone do me a favor do a couple things:
1) Advance the game a few turns and see if Ioannis' authority stat changes to conform to what his trait list indicates he should have.
2) Load up a couple of the older saves at various points and check to see if Aleksios' authority stat matched what his trait list indicated he should have.

-------

Also, can someone tell me which provinces have been conquered in the middle east since 1140 (last election) and who they currently belong to?

[Ituralde]

I just wanted to tell you guys that my computer problems are now solved and im back in the game.:2thumbsup:

Glad to have you back!

I should check whether someone has computer problems before I gift them the castle containing most of my armed forces. :beam:

[_Tristan_]

Also, can someone tell me which provinces have been conquered in the middle east since 1140 (last election) and who they currently belong to?

The only settlement captured since 1140 is Gaza IIRC.

Perusing the Political Table, I noticed that Methodios was listed with having 1 Inf. Doesn't his being Caesar grant him an automatic + 1 Inf ?

[TinCow]

Perusing the Political Table, I noticed that Methodios was listed with having 1 Inf. Doesn't his being Caesar grant him an automatic + 1 Inf ?


The influence table has not been updated since 1140. I only update it during Senate sessions, and did not do so for the emergency session since I wasn't around for it. It will be updated again when the 1155 Senate session starts... unless another emergency session is called before then.

Also, please note that the rank of Caesar only gives a +1 to STAT influence. People seem to be getting Influence and Stat Influence confused, so I'll try and explain it a bit better.

There are TWO kinds of 'Influence'... regular Influence and Stat Influence. Regular Influence is an automatic +1 to your vote weight. If you have +1 Influence, you get +1 to your vote weight no matter what happens. Stat Influence is NOT automatic, it is simply extra influence that it is possible for you to achieve if you have the right stats. In order to actually make use of a point of Stat Influence, you have to meet one of the requirements for it. These are the requirements:

(a) 5+ ranks of Command (b) 10 ranks of Command (c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry or Dread (d) 10 ranks of Chivalry or Dread (e) 10 ranks of Loyalty (f) 8+ ranks of Piety (g) 20+ total stat points (h) 30+ total stat points (i) 40 total stat points (j) Senator’s name is modified by a trait title that bestows more negative than positive stat points (i.e. the Mad) (k) Senator is married to a Byzantine Empire Princess (l) Senator possesses the title of Lord High Chancellor, Lord High Steward, or Privy Seal.

Let's use an actual avatar as an example:
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/LOTR/1125/ioannis-komnenos.jpg

In this mugshot, Ioannis meets 3 of the requirements for Stat Influence. These are (a) 5+ ranks of Command, (c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry, and (g) 20+ total stat points. Thus, Ioannis at this point can make use of 3 Stat Influence. However, that doesn't contribute to his vote weight unless he actually has 3 or more Stat Influence available to him.

For example, lets pretend that at this point Ioannis holds the rank of Domestikos. Domestikos gives 1 regular Influence and up to 1 Stat Influence. Thus, his total vote weight is 2 (1 from regular influence and 1 from Stat Influence). Even though he meets the requirements for two more Stat Influence, he does not get any benefit from them because he does not have sufficient rank to make use of them. Now, let's instead pretend that Ioannis holds the rank of Exarch. Exarch gives 1 regular Influence and up to 4 Stat Influence. This means Ioannis gets a total weighted vote of 4, 1 from his regular influence and 3 because he meets 3 of the Stat Influence requirements. He does NOT get to use the 4th Stat Influence from the Exarch rank, because he does not meet a 4th requirement.

The reasoning behind this is simple: You have to have both rank AND good stats to get higher influence. A buffoon will not sway many people into voting his way, even if he has a high rank. A genius will not be able to sway voters if he has no political rank of significance. In order to increase your influence you need to improve your stats AND gain in rank.

This is one of the reasons why the Megas position is so powerful. Even after you have left the position, you get a permanent +1 to regular Influence and a permanent +1 to Stat Influence. Let's look at Ioannis again to see the advantage. If Ioannis in the above mugshot has the rank of Strator, he has a measly vote weight of 1, despite his high stats. However, let's pretend that he's also served as Megas TWICE. He's still a Strator (perhaps he just alienated all his allies and lost a Civil War), but the two terms as Megas give him a +2 to regular Influence and a +2 to Stat Influence. Since he meets the requirements for at least 2 Stat Influence, he can make use of them both. Thus, he gets +4 to his vote weight from his two Megas terms in addition to the normal 1 he gets for being a Strator. So, double ex-Megas Ioannis has a vote weight of 5, despite only holding the rank of Strator. That is as powerful as an Exarch with maxed-out Stat Influence.

[Dafuge]

Hi all,

This KoP with another name. Finally my internet access is back and I wish to enter the game. I would like my avatar killed off and just use the automatic will of it going to my Lord. I assume you will post up the avaliable avatars in the sign up thread?

[_Tristan_]

Glad to have you back, Dafuge

[Zim]

Things are busier than ever in rl for me, but I'm not sure I can resist any longer, and I see one of the characters I was thinking about trying to play is nearly of age.

Anyone mind if I take Magnentios (Ioannis Kalameteros' son) in two turns?

[TinCow]

Hi all,

This KoP with another name. Finally my internet access is back and I wish to enter the game. I would like my avatar killed off and just use the automatic will of it going to my Lord. I assume you will post up the avaliable avatars in the sign up thread?

Certainly. Where would you like to start?

[edit]Just noticed that you're sworn to Makedonios. PK is currently inactive, thus dying without a will may tie up your province, since it will go to an inactive player. If you'd like to make things a bit easier for the Order, just make a post in their thread that your will is that your province go to Armatos ek Naksou, the current leader of the Order.


Anyone mind if I take Magnentios (Ioannis Kalameteros' son) in two turns?

No one has requested him before you, so consider him yours. For IC/Senate purposes, you can start playing him now if you would like instead of waiting until he spawns.

[_Tristan_]

WOOHOO !! Zim is back !!

[Dafuge]

OK, I will post in the Order of St. John thread.

[Ignoramus]

Great to see you back, Zim.

For Flemish Cloth! :charge::charge::charge:

[Ramses II CP]

On the authority stat, FYI authority can 'roll around' such that negative authority displays as having 10 authority. This occurs even in vanilla (There were several examples of it in my Total Tyranny campaign and I think the screenshots would still be there to find). That doesn't mean it's not a bug, but I doubt it's an artifact of the removal of the civil war system.

The King from my first stint in the Scottish AAR might've had this happen too, I can't remember if his rolled around to negative numbers or was just zero.

There are a number of examples of this type of behavior in MTWII (For example your Papal approval rating can roll over the top and suddenly go from perfect to the lowest possible, this happened twice in my Danish campaign because my rules forced gifting so much territory to the Pope). Sloppy coding if you ask me.

:egypt:

[TinCow]

Well, it does mean that Ioannis has negative Authority for some reason. I checked the game files and Ioannis does not have ANY negative authority traits. There IS a hidden negative authority trait in the game that is part of the Civil War system, but I don't think that's the problem either because I tried removing it and Ioannis' authority didn't change. If he'd had it, removing it would have worked even though it wasn't showing up on his trait list. Thus, Ioannis seems to have a default -2 to Authority. AFAIK, that shouldn't be happening, thus I call it a bug until I'm shown otherwise.

[Dafuge]

Seems that I'm having some trouble installing Med 2. Anyway I'm glad my province is out the way and my character is gone. Now I can start afresh. As soon as I get my Medieval 2 working I would like to be spawned in Trebizond. (sp?)

Edit: Saw that TC already made me a few characters in Thessalonica. No worrys, will change my plan.

[TinCow]

Seems that I'm having some trouble installing Med 2. Anyway I'm glad my province is out the way and my character is gone. Now I can start afresh. As soon as I get my Medieval 2 working I would like to be spawned in Trebizond. (sp?)

Edit: Saw that TC already made me a few characters in Thessalonica. No worrys, will change my plan.

Trebizond is not a problem. I was planning on teleporting your character to your chosen destination anyway, and it's very easy to do. Just don't take the save next turn until after you pick and I move your avatar.

[Dafuge]

OK, cool. :beam:

Edit: Sorry I've changed my mind again, can you please move my character to Alexandria once you have spawned the characters.

Double Edit: I've got Medi 2 working and set up on the LotR mod thing so I'm good to go. I'll just be waiting for TC to move my character to Alexandria and I'm done. :beam:

[Ignoramus]

Just a note that I won't be online again until Friday, so please conduct all negotiations concerning the Basileus with AussieGiant.

AG also has permission to move Ioannis, which is stated in my SOT.

[gibsonsg91921]

Wow! Some crazy stuff here.

[Dafuge]

OK I'm assuming the new RBG are in Thessalonica. If so I choose Efthymios ek Herakliou. Can you zip him to Alexandria and dellete the other guy. I'm assuming I can start playing him straight away?

[AussieGiant]

Just a quick brain check.

Who's Dafuge again?

[Dafuge]

I'm KoP or Knights_of_Palma. I think I played Stavros of the Order.

[AussieGiant]

Thanks for the clarification Dafuge.

[TinCow]

OK I'm assuming the new RBG are in Thessalonica. If so I choose Efthymios ek Herakliou. Can you zip him to Alexandria and dellete the other guy. I'm assuming I can start playing him straight away?

I will move Efthymios and kill the others off now.

[Smowz]

When I saw you had taken the save I thought someone was using an hashashin already :dizzy2:

[Zim]

WOOHOO !! Zim is back !!


Great to see you back, Zim.

For Flemish Cloth! :charge::charge::charge:

Thanks guys. :yes:
For Flemish Cloth! :charge:

[_Tristan_]

Contrary to my expectations, I won't be able to take my M2TW capable with me on my work trip so I won't be able to access the game in the next three weeks (should be back on Hallow's Eve)...

I might be able to check on forums from time to time but there is nothing sure.

Keep up the fight, guys...

[ULC]

I was planning renaming Medina to honor the fallen Annios Solomon, any suggestions?

[Dafuge]

Solomon's Tomb :beam:

[ULC]

Solomon's Tomb :beam:

Seeing as your going to be getting it, you sure that's appropriate?

:clown:

[Dafuge]

Not really, but it's a funny idea.

:clown:

[OverKnight]

I'd think it would be a nice touch in the game if when you change the name of the city unrest rises by 5 - 10% for 10 turns or so. I know if someone marched into Somerville MA, plundered it and then renamed it A-rodia or something, I'd be a bit miffed.

[Dafuge]

Would you riot and kill the towns garrison? :beam:

Edit: Have updated my SoT.

[flyd]

Um, Medina is a holy city for the Muslims. I think all of them would be pissed, never mind the residents in that city. I fear you have just given TC an excuse...

[deguerra]

ok kids,

I know I've been rather silent the past couple of weeks, as I've been incredibly busy with uni since I came back from Germany. I was actually considering pulling out temporarily for a bit, but I think the worst is over.

I'm very sorry for all those PMs I haven't or have only half-heartedly answered, I will try to get back to everyone. What with my son coming of age, my daughter apparently having a suitor (will check him out presently) and all the more important changes I think its time to get Ioannis back on track.

This new found resolve may waver during my exam period, in about four weeks, but that should only be a temporary setback.

[Dafuge]

Is there anyway to change the name of retinues, because I want to change the Duke of Medina or whatever it is to Duke of Solomeia?

[TinCow]

Is there anyway to change the name of retinues, because I want to change the Duke of Medina or whatever it is to Duke of Solomeia?

Only by modding, which I'm not prepared to do for city titles since they can change regularly.

[Dafuge]

No problem then.

Ramses I owe you for the retinue transfer. :clown:

[TinCow]

With the current Megas term approaching its end, I would like to do two things.

First, I want to give huge praise to Smowz for handling the job so superbly. It has been a long time since we had a Megas term pass so smoothly, at least on an OOC basis.

Second, I would like to ask for general comments on how the changes to the army system are working. How do you like it? Do you understand it? Is it working well? Are the PUs easy to keep track of? Are the number of PUs available to the various ranks properly balanced? Any and all comments are welcome, and please do suggest ways the system can be improved further.

[gibsonsg91921]

So many posts! The 20 pages only OOC threads... relics from a more civilized age.

[Dafuge]

TinCow,

I find the current system way more easier to understand and I definatly want it to stay, though I would like an admiral or something similar.

[Ramses II CP]

No problem then.

Ramses I owe you for the retinue transfer. :clown:

I believe Rowan did the transfer for you actually. I've had to muddle in the console before, but I'm no good at it.

I'm very pleased with the system. We're still shaking a few of the not-instantly-obvious bits out, but it's been done completely without OOC difficulties which speaks to the simplicity of the system. Once the war breaks out, presuming there will be one, we'll give it a real shakedown test and see how things fall out. :yes:

:egypt:

[Ituralde]

I also like the system overall!

Concerning the numbers of units available, I don't know if we weren't a bit too successful. Right now it seems a tad too easy to become completely autonomous on PUs. My feeling right now is that the Megas isn't that important anymore. But maybe that'll change once you only get peasants for your PUs. So just a hunch of mine that we should keep looking at those numbers and maybe adjust them later.

[Dafuge]

OK then, Rowan I owe you.

:clown:

[_Tristan_]

I have a bit of a problem with the move made by YLC in this turn.

I don't recall giving him authorization to move Methodios or his army IIRC and my SoT confirms this...

I have no ability to have access to the save and therefore Methodios could get killed while I'm AFK...

Could the console be used to undo that move ASAP, please ?

IC, Methodios being severely wounded is the explanation behind his being grounded in Solomeia (or Medina)

[TinCow]

I have a bit of a problem with the move made by YLC in this turn.

I don't recall giving him authorization to move Methodios or his army IIRC and my SoT confirms this...

I have no ability to have access to the save and therefore Methodios could get killed while I'm AFK...

Could the console be used to undo that move ASAP, please ?

IC, Methodios being severely wounded is the explanation behind his being grounded in Solomeia (or Medina)

I will move Methodios back to the spot where he started the turn with the console when I get home.

[Ramses II CP]

I recommend everyone do a house keeping check/update of their SoT entry. I realized I never updated mine with my rank, and poking through saw a few things that probably needed an update from other people. :beam:

You can be sure I won't put Methodios in battle Tristan. When I fought the rebels I didn't want to retreat him (Does that accrue bad traits?) but I did leave him parked by the entrance with all his low number veteran cavalry so there was zero chance of them getting in a fight.

:egypt:

[Smowz]

I think the Priortising system is an excellent idea.

I do think the numbers for the PU's could do with being scaled down a little. I also believe the wording on the Priortised Buildings needs to worded in exactly the same way as the PU's. As it stands currently there is the potential for Oath swapping around to get lots of PBs' for a house in one megas term.

The mistakes I often make with my turns have been with players changing their Status and Order Threads and me not spotting it. The latest example being Acre, which I had long understood to be a target of conversion to a town. Of course it is Cecil XIX prerogative to change his own Orders as he wishes and I should have double checked before I put it in, but it is not always easy to spot, even with bold red writing.

As I said I should really painstakingly double check all building works, but it becomes a very time consuming process in this case.

I would like to suggest that players changing their Status and Order threads during a Megas Term should PM the Megas to say that they have done so. I apprieciate this adds a level of bureaucracy to the situation and that others before me have managed with it, but this has been my main issue.

I don't think that my Megas powers have been to damaged, but then I did not play a Megas previous so I do not have a point of comparison.

[Ituralde]

Man do I hate Horse Archers. There were just so many of them, I didn't know where to turn. My battles really don't improve if the battles I fight for this PBM are my only M2TW battles. :2thumbsup:

[Ramses II CP]

I think the Priortising system is an excellent idea.

I do think the numbers for the PU's could do with being scaled down a little. I also believe the wording on the Priortised Buildings needs to worded in exactly the same way as the PU's. As it stands currently there is the potential for Oath swapping around to get lots of PBs' for a house in one megas term.

The mistakes I often make with my turns have been with players changing their Status and Order Threads and me not spotting it. The latest example being Acre, which I had long understood to be a target of conversion to a town. Of course it is Cecil XIX prerogative to change his own Orders as he wishes and I should have double checked before I put it in, but it is not always easy to spot, even with bold red writing.

As I said I should really painstakingly double check all building works, but it becomes a very time consuming process in this case.

I would like to suggest that players changing their Status and Order threads during a Megas Term should PM the Megas to say that they have done so. I apprieciate this adds a level of bureaucracy to the situation and that others before me have managed with it, but this has been my main issue.

I don't think that my Megas powers have been to damaged, but then I did not play a Megas previous so I do not have a point of comparison.

PBs are only calculated per Senate session, so oath swapping will not result in more PBs. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[TinCow]

PBs are only calculated per Senate session, so oath swapping will not result in more PBs. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

Actually, that's not true based on how the rules are written now. PUs are calculated at normal Senate sessions, but PBs are granted whenever the rank is achieved. This inconsistency is due to the fact that the PB rules were original to the game, but PUs were introduced recently. I simply forgot to check on this when we wrote up the army changes last time. Smowz pointed this inconsistency out to me earlier in this term, and it has since been my intention to fix it via an amendment at this coming Senate session. I will simply propose an amendment that makes it so that PBs are calculated based on the rank held at the last normal Senate session, just like for PUs.

This will be one of several rule tweaking amendments I will be proposing this term. None of them are major, just little adjustments here and there to improve the system.

[Smowz]

Well there it is the end of my Megas term.

It certainly is a nice experience although I must confess quite time consuming at times. It is easy as I said to make mistakes with the Status and Order thread but that is a nice way of checking out what can and cannot be done.

How did you guys find the timing of the saves, was I going too fast? too slow? Were the Megas reports too brief, too long, not informative, too informative? Do my endless grammar errors grate?

Anyway look forward to seeing what Igno makes of the week whilst he has been away, who will stand for election this time and what to make of these newcomers. I just hope zim was not wanting his avatar to take after his mother!!!

[Ramses II CP]

Magnentios the Bastard! That is simply superb. If I'd known he was coming I'd've been tempted to get Vissa killed just to get that title. I think we should all work as hard as possible OOC to make sure he's next in line for the throne too.

I think the game has moved along nicely this term, and the new rules are working out just right. Well done Smowz!

On that note, I'd love to have that Pagan Magician Vissa gained executed. In fact I'll probably write a story to that effect, and soon. We're still allowed to kick them out, right?

:egypt:

[Northnovas]

Well done, Smowz! Excellent job for first time Chancellor and new to the PBEM. I gues the tweaking of the rules made the game play smoother? I thought it was a good pace with the saves.

Ramses yes we can get rid of the Pagan Magician I can't wait for your story on how the execution will go. :book:

[TinCow]

Please point out any titles that need to be moved to new avatars or other avatar traits/retinue that need to be otherwise altered. (Other than Ramses' Pagan Magician, which will be taken care of shortly.)

[Smowz]

Well Vartholomaios Ksiros has the Duke of Damascus, as it stands it should be on Armatos, but his retinue may be full I am not sure.

[deguerra]

ahem, "Magnentios the Bastard" ey....well that certainly changes things. Guess I can't keep my moral high ground over Anna after all :sweatdrop:

[Ituralde]

Just a heads up that I will be gone for the next 12 hours or so, so don't expect any answers from Pavlos until tomorrow. :beam:

[AussieGiant]

A very good job by Smowz in my view. Things went far smoother and with the PU tightening then I'd say we are in a good position for the next term.

[Ignoramus]

I agree. Smowz's term was a very good example of a smooth Megas turn. Well done.

[Smowz]

Ok I was just updating my notes.

Who is currently high steward, high chancellor and has the privy seal?

[AussieGiant]

I currently hold the position of Lord High Chancellor.

Another issue, can someone move the "Bucharest Duke" title from me to GH?

[woad&fangs]

I have the Privy Seal

[Northnovas]

Ramses :egypt:

Nice work on the pagan magician, your writings are always entertaining to read! :2thumbsup:

[TinCow]

I have the following list of retinue changes to do. I will work on the mugshots tomorrow, so please point out any others that I am missing before then:

Vissarionas ek Lesvou - Remove Pagan Magician
Vartholomaios Ksiros - Remove Duke of Damascus, transfer to Armatos ek Naksou if possible.
Apionnas Vringas - Remove Duke of Budapest Bucharest , transfer to Klimis Dokeianos

[Ramses II CP]

Thanks NN! :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[AussieGiant]

TC,

It's Bucharest not Budapest.

Ramses, always entertaining to read your stuff. I certainly liked the blood and guts through the piece.

[ULC]

Is it actually possible within the current system to marry within family? I don;t think the marriage between Andronikos and Hypatia is possible.

[OverKnight]

I double checked, the game allows it.

[ULC]

Now the question is whether or not Methodios will let that happen :laugh4:

[OverKnight]

Good point, it is Methodios's daughter. We'll see.

[Ituralde]

Just my views on the building Edicts.

Do I see this right that those are Edicts that are binding for Senators, since they can not be enforced by the Megas without breaking the game rules. So if the conversion of Rhodes must be done by will of the Senate, its owner Hypatios Machonios must put this in the build queue otherwise the Megas can not fulfill the Edict since he is only allowed to build things that appear on the build queue and Edicts don't overrule parts of the rules.

So that's my view. Before I bring anything up about it IC I would like to make sure we're clear on the OOC parts here.

[Smowz]

Well I feel that this is something that the senate should be able to be used for a pressing concern for the empire is the maintenance of a fine economy.

I do not see anything wrong with Edicts targeting senators, as well as the Megas. In this case the holders of Rhodes and Nicosia have a responsibility to ensure their settlements are being used for the greater good of the empire.

Of course for a settlement to change into a Town, both the senator in charge needs to change his build queue and the Megas needs to allocate the appropriate funds to carry out the conversion.

Of course in the case of Rhodes and Nicosia, there is another way to do it through the house leaders Priortised Building. I am not sure if the Priortised building can be used to override an individual senators build queue however.

[deguerra]

just as a quick heads up for the next Megas:

I have ammended my SOT to allow Smowz to handle my prioritizing..

[Ituralde]

I agree fully with your interpretation. That's the way I would have handled it too. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. As this is something that isn't explicitly covered in the rules and people coming from KotR and WotS might have a different understanding of the matter than people new to this game.

As long as its clear that Edicts can't override the Rules. I found your wording of the Edict to be pretty good, Smowz, as it keeps that in mind and still puts pressure on the owners on those settlements and the Megas to enforce it. :2thumbsup:

[AussieGiant]

Ituralde, Smowz,

You are right on the money in my view.

There has been "legislation wars", or threats of these types of wars in KotR. It is perfectly fair to do this because "others" can table "counter legislation" which can be voted on.

In this case the two gentlemen are away, a lot, and this is a nice IC way of solving the problem. And as we know the policy is IC, IC, IC, then if in doubt, IC. :beam:

[TinCow]

Just my views on the building Edicts.

Do I see this right that those are Edicts that are binding for Senators, since they can not be enforced by the Megas without breaking the game rules. So if the conversion of Rhodes must be done by will of the Senate, its owner Hypatios Machonios must put this in the build queue otherwise the Megas can not fulfill the Edict since he is only allowed to build things that appear on the build queue and Edicts don't overrule parts of the rules.

Just because the Edict says that the settlements have to be converted doesn't mean it contradicts the rules. The rules allow for IC methods to convert settlements, so this Edict just dictates how those existing options must be exercised. It is true, however, that the only way they can be enforced is by the owner of the settlement. So, the effect of the Edict will be IC legislation requiring the owners of the two settlements to stick conversion to city at the top of their build queues. If they refuse to do so, their refusal will have to be dealt with IC.


In this case the two gentlemen are away, a lot and this is a nice IC way of solving the problem.

Elite Ferret was online yesterday, so he does not appear to be AWOL. If he refuses to post a build queue with a settlement conversion, use the various IC powers to whack him over the head until he does. PK is not an issue, since this will be the second normal Senate session he will have missed. Thus, as soon as this one is over, his province will become the property of Armatos ek Naksou (Cecil XIX) and it will then be his responsibility to do the proper build queue.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

PK is not an issue, since this will be the second normal Senate session he will have missed.

Perhaps he will miss it because of the 30 days ban?

EDIT: Checked the dates and PK's 30 days ban ended yesterday if I'm correct.

[TinCow]

PK hasn't been online since shortly before I issued the ban. It has now expired and he was presumably never even aware of it.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That I didn't know. :shame:

[Ituralde]

Just because the Edict says that the settlements have to be converted doesn't mean it contradicts the rules. The rules allow for IC methods to convert settlements, so this Edict just dictates how those existing options must be exercised. It is true, however, that the only way they can be enforced is by the owner of the settlement. So, the effect of the Edict will be IC legislation requiring the owners of the two settlements to stick conversion to city at the top of their build queues. If they refuse to do so, their refusal will have to be dealt with IC.

Yeah sorry wasn't clear there. I meant it the way you wrote it, the Edicts vs. rules bit was just meant as a general reminder.

[_Tristan_]

Now the question is whether or not Methodios will let that happen :laugh4:

Not a chance of that happening...

[woad&fangs]

Power of the Basileus #10, from the rules
(10) Decides which Senator, if any, a Princess should marry.

[AussieGiant]

Worked that out behind closed doors. :balloon2:

Get the Ring ready Tristan :beam:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Power of the Basileus #10, from the rules
(10) Decides which Senator, if any, a Princess should marry.

In that case.. I have no chance to get her! :cry:

[_Tristan_]

Power of the Basileus #10, from the rules
(10) Decides which Senator, if any, a Princess should marry.

Yes but you'd still have to come and grab her in Egypt... :egypt:

EDIT : And that power makes sense when and where the Princess is the Basileus own daughter... which in this case she clearly isn't....

[Rowan]

Have we finally found out the one thing that will trigger a civil war? Will the woman in love escape an arranged marriage? Which one is greater, a man's loyalty to his king or father's love?

These, and all other questions you may have, will be answered during the next term.

:drama3:

[woad&fangs]

TROJAN WAR II !!!

Unfortunately me and Tristan are on opposite sides of the Empire so I'll have to settle for lopping off her suitors head :smash:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Fortunately for me I have a fleet and I can get to Methodios' daughter and ask 'her' to marry Theo!:idea2:

[OverKnight]

Considering the poor girl has a one heart rating, her's is hardly the face that launched a thousand ships, unless they were fleeing in the other direction.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Considering the poor girl has a one heart rating, her's is hardly the face that launched a thousand ships, unless they were fleeing in the other direction.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[flyd]

EDIT : And that power makes sense when and where the Princess is the Basileus own daughter... which in this case she clearly isn't....

You're right. The rule itself was written probably before we realized that in SS all the girls become princesses. In the spirit of ICness, perhaps you should propose an amendment to change that to the daughter's father. It is a silly rule, you might have some support.

[AussieGiant]

While interesting, retrospective legislation is a hard sell.

[Ramses II CP]

We have an interesting case here because, and this IMHO is the crucial point, the Princess, as an agent, is moved by the Megas. Thus, as would be the case in ordering a ceasefire via a diplomat, it's the Megas who must implement the commands of the Emperor. If the next Megas declines to send the Princess to find Andronikos then, well, I guess he will have to just come and get her, eh?

I don't think anyone disputes that the Emp has the right to decide which senator the princess should marry, but he has no right to implement that decision. That is strictly the purview of the Megas, though he must obviously bear the IC consequences of his decisions.

Looking at the current crop of candidates for Megas, however, it may require Methodios running himself to prevent it?

I'm working on a Vissa letter for the senate, but it'll probably not be until tomorrow or late tonight since today is a football day.

:egypt:

[AussieGiant]

Interesting read on the issue Ramses.

I like it.

It should make for some interesting IC moves.

[TinCow]

FYI, the Basileus deciding who Princesses should marry even when they are not his daughters is intentional. I'm not sure about Byzantium, but historically, the Kings of Europe always had the final say in any royal marriage. If you were of royal blood and married without your Regent's permission, you were usually in a boatload of trouble.

Ramses is correct in this situation. It would violate the rules to allow the Princess to marry anyone other than the Basileus' choice. However, just because she can't marry someone else doesn't mean she can't be 'stalled' as he suggests. Both sides have more than enough power to decide whether they want to compromise on this issue or escalate.

[Ignoramus]

Maybe this is an excellent time for a new recruitment ad? The way things are looking, the more the merrier.

[Ignoramus]

Also, weren't non player characters in the Magnaura disallowed? Because Demetrios is obviously YLC's character to attack the Basileus without Nikolas actually doing so.

[AussieGiant]

Yeah, who is this kid YLC??

[TinCow]

Maybe this is an excellent time for a new recruitment ad? The way things are looking, the more the merrier.

I've about exhausted the ad potential here at the Org. I'm trying to figure out the proper way to put up an ad at TWC, but the mods I have contacted about it over there haven't responded to me. [edit] Coincidentally they just did. An ad will be going up at TWC in the near future.

I do very much encourage everyone to recruit people in whatever way they can. If you know someone who you think might be interested, whether on this forum or another one, please PM them and invite them. Keep in mind, that you are perfectly free to recruit people right into your own House as well, so recruiting can strengthen your own position within the game.

[ULC]

The kid is Demetrios ek Kallipoleos, and he wants to speak with you most urgently Apionnas. He is the Veteran Warrior ancillary, although I am having a hard time coming up with a back story that isn't to long to explain this.

[TinCow]

The Influence Table (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1925729&postcount=4) has been updated. Please point out any errors that you find.

At this point, the entire Library update is complete, except for the locations of the avatars in 1140 and 1155. This seems to be an area of information that I constantly fall down, so I'd like to ask whether people think it is useful information to have. Do you guys care about where the avatars were located at the various Senate sessions? If not, I may simply erase that info from the Library.

[Ituralde]

I find it interesting in retracing the steps of my characters, but can understand completely if it is left out due to being a major pain in the ****!

[AussieGiant]

Can anyone tell me where TheFlax posted his Dean duties?

[TinCow]

I don't recall him posting anything specific, but from my end he has simply been supplying me with the list of which Scholars want which traits. I gather that he has PMed the various people to remind them to submit their orders on time, and has done me the favor of submitting them all a turn or two before any Senate session, which gives me time to implement them before dealing with the mugshots. All in all, it is a simple job, made only slightly more complex by the fact that you have an avatar that can make use of the Dean's double trait boost ability, which TheFlax could not do.

[AussieGiant]

can you explain the double trait thing for the slow learner over here? :dizzy2:

I remember he asked everyone to submit a letter to him on why they should be a scholar and then he chose the current one's. Do you remember that TC?

From the rules I have to submit the list before the end of the session up to a total of 5, including myself.

[Smowz]

TC: Thumbs up as ever with the updates. I don' t really need to know my characters whereabouts per update to be honest. But the rest are certainly very useful, it is always nice to see how avatars have 'grown' over the years.

I am just comparing my crude notes to yours and wish to enquire as to whether one of the influences is correct:

It is highly likely it is my misunderstanding as usual but here goes:

It is concerning the largely irrelevant Makadonias influence. He is a Comes which has a influence of 1 and has been ex-megas which raises that to a 2. What is it that raises it further to 3? He does have a 9 chivalry stat but I thought a his rank would mean he could not go higher than 2.

As I say highly technical but I would like to know if there is something I am missing !!!
I have no idea about the Basileus influence so I will leave it there!!!

[TinCow]

can you explain the double trait thing for the slow learner over here? :dizzy2:

I remember he asked everyone to submit a letter to him on why they should be a scholar and then he chose the current one's. Do you remember that TC?

From the rules I have to submit the list before the end of the session up to a total of 5, including myself.

All Scholars get to pick one trait to improve from the list of traits inside the spoiler under the University rule (3.9). Any trait that is listed there that they already have can be moved up or down one level, as long as the level they are moving it to is also listed (most traits list all of their possible levels, but some intentionally are limited to only level 1). If the Scholar does not have the trait at all, they can instead add the trait at level 1. The Dean is exactly the same, except he gets to do it twice. You can either bump one trait two levels, or two traits one level.

Your job is to decide who the Scholars are, and then to collect their decisions about what traits they want to alter and submit them to me, along with your own choices. Here is an example of a previous PM from TheFlax:


Hi,

Here are the traits each scholar has chosen for this term.

Ioannis Komnenos (Ignoramus):

Trait Pragmatic
Level No_Nonsense
Effect Authority 2
Effect TroopMorale 1

Andronikos Komnenos (Motep):

Trait Just
Level A_Sense_of_Justice
Effect Chivalry 1
Effect Law 1

Methodios Tagaris (Tristan de Castelreng):

Castle Education (Castle_Edu)
Level 1 – Squire
Effect MovementPoints 10

Ioannis Kalameteros (Deguerra):

Trait AcademyTrained
Level Officer_Training
Effect Command 2

Armatos ek Naksou (Cecil XIX):

Removal of the 'Poor Logistician' trait

That PM by itself was all the info I needed and was the totality of his responsibilities for that entire Megas term.


I am just comparing my crude notes to yours and wish to enquire as to whether one of the influences is correct:

It is highly likely it is my misunderstanding as usual but here goes:

It is concerning the largely irrelevant Makadonias influence. He is a Comes which has a influence of 1 and has been ex-megas which raises that to a 2. What is it that raises it further to 3? He does have a 9 chivalry stat but I thought a his rank would mean he could not go higher than 2.

As I say highly technical but I would like to know if there is something I am missing !!!
I have no idea about the Basileus influence so I will leave it there!!!

Makedonios' ranks are Comes and Ex-Megas.
Comes give 1 normal Influence and nothing else.
Ex-Megas gives 1 normal Influence and up to 1 Stat Influence.

So, Makedonios' total Influence is 2 normal Influence and up to 1 Stat Influence.

Makedonios meets the requirements for 2 Stat Influence points:
(c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry or Dread
(g) 20+ total stat points

Makedonios can make use of his 1 Stat Influence gained from the Ex-Megas rank, but cannot make use of the second point because he does not have a rank that allows him to do so.

Thus, his total Influence is 3: 2 normal Influence and 1 stat Influence.

[AussieGiant]

Thanks TC.

I'll modify the post to match.

[Smowz]

Understood TC thanks for the explanation.

The Megas job is certainly an excellent job to improve an avatars influence.

[_Tristan_]

In the spirit of ICness, perhaps you should propose an amendment to change that to the daughter's father. It is a silly rule, you might have some support.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not think I have the powers to propose a CA. I would if I could...



Looking at the current crop of candidates for Megas, however, it may require Methodios running himself to prevent it?


I would also but the fact thta my internet access is patchy at best and I have no access to the game for the next two weeks prevents me from doing so...

This couldn't have come at a worst time...:brood:

[AussieGiant]

That is bad timing Tristan.

[Ituralde]

@TinCows story:

Be afraid, very afraid!!

I know I am... :surrender2:

[AussieGiant]

TC's such a drama queen.

He's just been dramatic because he feels left out. :balloon2:

He's also a professional shiet stirrer. :clown:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I wonder what happens if we move the capital.

[OverKnight]

Well only Ioannis can do that, and only to a settlement he already owns. It would cause a major IC kerfuffle however.

[TinCow]

He's also a professional shiet stirrer. :clown:

The Philosopher, the Ants, and Mercury

A Philosopher witnessed from the shore the shipwreck of a vessel, of which the crew and passengers were all drowned. He inveighed against the injustice of Providence, which would for the sake of one criminal perchance sailing in the ship allow so many innocent persons to perish. As he was indulging in these reflections, he found himself surrounded by a whole army of Ants, near whose nest he was standing. One of them climbed up and stung him, and he immediately trampled them all to death with his foot. Mercury presented himself, and striking the Philosopher with his wand, said, "And are you indeed to make yourself a judge of the dealings of Providence, who hast thyself in a similar manner treated these poor Ants?'

[AussieGiant]

The Philosopher, the Ants, and Mercury

A Philosopher witnessed from the shore the shipwreck of a vessel, of which the crew and passengers were all drowned. He inveighed against the injustice of Providence, which would for the sake of one criminal perchance sailing in the ship allow so many innocent persons to perish. As he was indulging in these reflections, he found himself surrounded by a whole army of Ants, near whose nest he was standing. One of them climbed up and stung him, and he immediately trampled them all to death with his foot. Mercury presented himself, and striking the Philosopher with his wand, said, "And are you indeed to make yourself a judge of the dealings of Providence, who hast thyself in a similar manner treated these poor Ants?'

See!

I rest my case. :balloon2:

[TinCow]

I'll admit that I find the Protoasecretes amusing. I actually prefer writing his bits more than I ever did for Verginius, Mandorf, or Lothar. I really do wish I'd had the opportunity to play a "the Mad" avatar.

[AussieGiant]

For the 3rd party observers, and for the record, I'm just teasing TC with all this banter.

Goodnight and god bless.

[Smowz]

Did Edict 6.3b get any seconders?

[AussieGiant]

Good point Smowz.

It doesn't say in the voting thread so it should not be a votable piece of legislation, even though it is at the moment.

[OverKnight]

Did Edict 6.3b get any seconders?

Nope, it shouldn't have been voted on. I was very clear with the lack of **. :laugh4:

[TinCow]

Sorry, my bad.

[TinCow]

Since it appears that CA 6.1 will pass, I am going to need to determine which of the previous CAs count as Rule Changes and which count as CAs which will require IC enforcement. The following list are the CAs that I think should remain as IC-enforcement CAs. Anything not listed below would be regarded as a Rule Change. Please comment if you feel like I have put something where it doesn't belong.

----------

CA 2.1 - Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of the Basileus. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war from the Basileus, a Megas Dux/Exarch or an Edict.

CA E3.2: Upon their elevation to the position of leader of a house, the senator must swear an oath of fealty to the Basileus.

(If it passes.) - CA 6.5: Varangian Guardsmen may only be recruited by the Basileus.

[Smowz]

I think that is it TC yeah. That 2.1 Charter amendment certainly makes interesting reading, I had forgotten its exact wording to be honest.

Congratulations to Iterulde on the Megas elections. I always love examining elections, by my often wrong calculations it would seem the critical influence the Megas or Edict needs is '21', though in probability 19 will be enough to get pushed through for certain at this stage.

[Rowan]

Battle report for Damascus (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2038054#post2038054) has been posted.

[TinCow]

Erg... I seem to have somehow misplaced my copy of LotrMod 1.2. All I've got is 1.1 and the downloader for 1.2 isn't working because Mizus is down. Does anyone happen happen to have a copy of LotRmod 1.2 that they can upload to the Org Uploader (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?catid=193)?

[Northnovas]

I found this in my saved files I don't know if it is the one you are looking for.

http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/M2TW_Uploads/MP_replays/LotRMod1.2.zip

[AussieGiant]

So what exactly happened with the assasinations?

Did anyone actual die or were they failed attempts?

[Rowan]

So what exactly happened with the assasinations?

Did anyone actual die or were they failed attempts?

I read it so that Vissa lost a unit of troops from his army and Igno lost the Mentor retinue.

[TinCow]

I read it so that Vissa lost a unit of troops from his army and Igno lost the Mentor retinue.

This is correct. Vissa lost a unit of Sudanese Tribesmen and the Basileus lost his Mentor ancillary. I'll make it more clear next time.


I found this in my saved files I don't know if it is the one you are looking for.

http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/M2TW_Uploads/MP_replays/LotRMod1.2.zip

Thanks, that's what I needed.

[OverKnight]

This!? This is what starts a Civil War, a one heart Princess? :laugh4:

Of course there's probably a lot going on that I'm missing. All my sources of info dried up when Al died.

[TinCow]

The War of the Princess is a temporary name for this conflict. Any peace treaty signed for this war can include a provision giving one side or the other the right to determine the permanent (historical) name of the war. History is written by the victors.

[TinCow]

I have modified the first post of the Library (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1925711&postcount=1) to differentiate between IC legislation (Edicts and CAs) and Rule Changes. All CAs and recently passed Edicts are listed together in one section and all recently passed Rule Changes are listed in a second section. The Rule Changes will be incoporated into the Game Rules in their usual spot, but CAs will no longer be part of the Game Rules. All IC legislation (Edicts and CAs) will be posted only in that section of the Library.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Ok.. this guy who married the princess.. well.. I think he wants divorce now! :laugh4:

[AussieGiant]

So can someone tell me where there is an "uploader?"

[Dafuge]

Mizus works fine for me although filefront is pretty decent.

[AussieGiant]

My link is not working.

Can you link me up Dafuge?

-EDIT-

Ok what the bloody hell is going on with the uploader!!? Some bright spark has made the damn thing "AussieGiant proof" and I have no bloody idea how it works!!

Can someone hold my hand and walk me through this please?

[TinCow]

Can someone hold my hand and walk me through this please?

Go here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?catid=193

Click Add Entry (last link on the second gray bar from the top.

Put in a name in the Name field (I usually just use the file name, such as LOTR-1155-2)

Scroll down to the Upload File field and browse to the file you want to upload.

Scroll to the bottom and hit Submit.

You're done uploading. Click accept or whatever you need to click to skip past the next screen, at which point you will be dumped into the list of files. Your file will be on top. Right click on the name of the file (i.e. LOTR-1155-2) and click Copy Link Location. Paste that into the Megas report as your link to the uploaded file.

No, I don't like this system either. I only use it when Mizus is down.

[AussieGiant]

My god!!

Thanks TC, talk about a bloody idiotic system.

[TinCow]

The problem is that the system is designed for larger file uploads that are more permanent, such as for mods. It doesn't handle a quick and dirty small file upload that doesn't need to be accessed often, which is what we use.

[AussieGiant]

Apologies,

I'll rephrase;

"What a bloody specifically tailor made system for people who have real jobs to do on this Message Board!"

[Ramses II CP]

Mediafire is also extremely reliable for file hosting in my experience; they've had only a single instance of downtime since I started using them.

:egypt:

[Northnovas]

What is wrong with the older method used on the org? That is how uploaded the last file and didn't have any problems. AG when I saw TC's link looking for the mod file it threw me off and I clicked the hell out of there. That is why I used the older method.

Wow I just realized the 1,000 post.

[ULC]

We seem to have a lot of "unactive avatars", some of which are rather important (at least in my eyes) such as the Basileus's son and this new guy who married Bizzaro Helen. What are we going to do with them? What if they end up in a battle? How do we interact with them, if at all?

[Ramses II CP]

Well, I believe generally the custom in KotR was for the father to assume some responsibility for filling in the son's character if the avatar was unplayed. I would expect Tristan and Igno could give some broad answers for their kids/kids in law. If they're in battle the normal rules apply with the highest command active avatar controlling the battle.

The simple fact is, of course, all the real business of the empire is done by the players no matter how important the unplayed avatar may be.

:egypt:

[ULC]

Makes sense I suppose, but lets say the unassigned avatar actually has a higher comand then yours and you end up in a battle. Technically, the unassigned avatar is in command, right? Thus it would defualt to the player of the father then? or would it play out as normal? Could traits be transfered in this instance?

[TinCow]

The best solution is just to recruit new players to take those avatars. Get out there and recruit your friends!

[Cecil XIX]

The best solution is just to recruit new players to take those avatars. Get out there and recruit your friends!

Alas, the closest any of my friends come to having interest in games like Total War is one who's played (and enjoyed) Fire Emblem 9. :shame:

Also, It's times like this when I really regret that I only have internet access for three to five consecutive hours a day. :wall:

[Cecil XIX]

Also, can we get a further explanation of how this war started? I'm sure some words were echanged behind the scenes, but looking at the report in the Megas Logothetes thread it looked to me as if Basileus Ioannis had no choice in how to respond to Methodios's defiance.

[TinCow]

For IC purposes, no one technically declared war on anyone. Methodios simply did something that was so blatantly hostile to the Basileus that it was a defacto declaration of war.

For OOC purposes, Tristan asked my advice if there was any way to prevent the marraige. I told him that there was not technically any way within the rules to do so, because the Basileus has complete control over this. Anything he did in the game to prevent the marriage would be a rule violation. However, the Princess was one of his daughters, was currently located in a city controlled by one of Methodios' vassals, he was also present in the city, and he had a large army with him. On an IC level, it makes total sense that Methodios could do whatever he wanted. Furthermore, I am allowed to react to rule violations in OOC or IC methods, as I see fit. It's no secret that I've been keen on seeing a Civil War erupt, so I told Tristan that I would allow him to accept the current marraige offer but that as a penalty I would make the action result in a defacto declaration of war against the Basileus. I saw this as a penalty to him, because the Basileus appears to have far more power and allies, so doing so is very risky for Methodios. Tristan agreed, and that's where we are.

[flyd]

I fear love will be no match for power...

[Cecil XIX]

Indeed, I suspected as much. Let me ask some hypotheticals then. What would have happened if Ignoramus, as soon as he heard of it, told you that IC Ioannis would not see Methodio's actions as an act of war? To put it another way, (and possibly elicit a different answer) what would have happened if Ioannis did not want to start a Civil War over the matter? What if Tristan agreed, but neither Methodios or Ioannis wanted a Civil War?

[TinCow]

The defender doesn't have a choice as to whether a person declares a war against them. That's part of the rules, so Ignoramus' opinion didn't matter. Tristan had a choice: let the Princess go and remain at peace, or marry her to his choice but be forced to declare war as punishment. If neither one wants the war under these circumstances, ending it is very easy; they just have to agree on a peace treaty. As I suspected would happen, neither one appears interested in it at the moment. That has nothing to do with me though, they're continuing it because they want to.

[Cecil XIX]

I see. I guess then the question that I should have asked in the first place is who told the Senators IC that Methodios's actions were a declaration of war? The Protoasecretes? I'm asking this stuff because it affects how Armatos would react. At first I thought Ioannis declared it a casus belli, to which Armatos would have singled that out as an overreaction and dangerous precedent. If it's the Protoasecretes he'd probably just think to himself 'darn you old man' and carry on with the situation.

[TinCow]

The way I have thought of it is as an egregious insult. Essentially, Methodios just did something that was so 'officially' insulting to the Basileus that it was the political equivalent of a declaration of war. Neither man had to say any official words about it, because it was generally perceived as an insult so horrendous that to respond in any other manner than war would have been a massive blow to the Basileus' prestige. Think of it as the medieval equivalent to slapping someone in the face with a glove, but coat the glove in dog feces first. Depending on your point of view, either man can be 'right' or 'wrong' for their actions. If you're looking for IC motivation, ask yourself whether your avatar would think that the circumstances (defined as narrowly or broadly as you want) warranted the 'slap'. The sequence of events is clear, it's just a question of making a personal determination on who is truly out of line. Did the Basileus provoke Methodios, requiring him to do what he did? Did Methodios react improperly to the Basileus?:shrug:

[Cecil XIX]

I'm afraid I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around this. It sounds like they were told by the Lord himself that Methodio's actions were a casus belli. What if Ioannis had the authority to banish Methodios? Could that have been substituted as a consequence instead of the DoW?

I'm worried about this immense power you seemed to have used, similar to if the Holy Spirt had entered Methodios or Ioannis and temporarily controlled their actions.

Let me explain my worries with a hypothetical scenario. Suppose the Methodios decided to do what he did, and you decided to let Ioannis choose the extent of the insult. Say Ioannis could have chosen to do anything, from using the banishment mechanism (assuming he had the authority) to demanding that he be expelled from his house, or even decide that Methodios had declared war on him exactly as you described. In this instance the extent of Methodios's insult is determined entirely by the Basileus.

Now for comparison, say that things happened like they did in reality. But assume that Methodios would have preferred to marry his daughter without it being a DoW, and that Ioannis does not see it as a DoW either and would have chosen not to see it has such in the scenario above. In this case, although Ioannis would prefer not to go to war, he is under pressure because of the assumption that what Methodios did was a DoW. This pressure could affect his decision making, and cause him to go against his preferred judgement rather than appear weak.

I like the idea of this pressure existing. But I think it should only come from the players, not the GM.

Sorry if this seems critical, I think that in this circumstance no harm has been done whatsoever. But I'm worried that something could happen in the future that causes the characters to act in a way that has no IC explanation.

As I alluded to before, my more immediate problem is that apparently Methodios is the one IC who decided this should cause a war, but apart from the post in the Megas Logothetes thread there's no evidence of the thread. And who does Armatos think is speaking there? I want his position to be that what Methodios did is not, in fact, a casus belli. How does he frame such a belief? In what way would he argue for it?

...Man, sorry for the long post. It's a lot of words for an issue that might have no bearing on anything in the future. Still, if it comes up again I'd like these questions answered. :dizzy2:

[rossahh]

Cecil's got a point. However it can be sorted if it's revealed that Ignoramus knew that Tristan, by defying him, was declaring war. If Ignoramus didn't know, then it sort of seems like Ignoramus hasn't been given the choice to respond to the insult. It's like Tristan has declared war because it was assumed on behalf of Ignoramus that Ioannis would see this as an act of war.

[flyd]

As a Tagaris supporter, this is the biased version of events I've been using:

1. Ioannis proclaims the marriage without consulation and negotiation (the last in a series of many arrogant moves), and leaves Tagaris no recourse other than:
2. Tagaris arranges the marriage. This breaks the law so clearly that it is an effective war declaration, but that's ok, because he was left with no other option.
3. Though the conflict started as one only between Ioannis and Tagaris, Ioannis tries to escalate it by calling on everyone else to pick a side. He does nothing to defuse the situation, but only tries to make it worse.

1 and 3 I focus on, and 2 was... regrettable but necessary.

[AussieGiant]

As a Tagaris supporter, this is the biased version of events I've been using:

1. Ioannis proclaims the marriage without consulation and negotiation (the last in a series of many arrogant moves), and leaves Tagaris no recourse other than:
2. Tagaris arranges the marriage. This breaks the law so clearly that it is an effective war declaration, but that's ok, because he was left with no other option.
3. Though the conflict started as one only between Ioannis and Tagaris, Ioannis tries to escalate it by calling on everyone else to pick a side. He does nothing to defuse the situation, but only tries to make it worse.

1 and 3 I focus on, and 2 was... regrettable but necessary.

Thanks flyd, that's been of great help in working out what to say next. :balloon2:

[flyd]

Thanks flyd, that's been of great help in working out what to day next. :balloon2:

No problem, I figured you needed some help. :laugh4:

[TinCow]

I'm afraid I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around this. It sounds like they were told by the Lord himself that Methodio's actions were a casus belli. What if Ioannis had the authority to banish Methodios? Could that have been substituted as a consequence instead of the DoW?

It could have, but my desire was to encourage the start of a war, not banish Methodios.


I'm worried about this immense power you seemed to have used, similar to if the Holy Spirt had entered Methodios or Ioannis and temporarily controlled their actions.

Let me explain my worries with a hypothetical scenario. Suppose the Methodios decided to do what he did, and you decided to let Ioannis choose the extent of the insult. Say Ioannis could have chosen to do anything, from using the banishment mechanism (assuming he had the authority) to demanding that he be expelled from his house, or even decide that Methodios had declared war on him exactly as you described. In this instance the extent of Methodios's insult is determined entirely by the Basileus.

Now for comparison, say that things happened like they did in reality. But assume that Methodios would have preferred to marry his daughter without it being a DoW, and that Ioannis does not see it as a DoW either and would have chosen not to see it has such in the scenario above. In this case, although Ioannis would prefer not to go to war, he is under pressure because of the assumption that what Methodios did was a DoW. This pressure could affect his decision making, and cause him to go against his preferred judgement rather than appear weak.

I like the idea of this pressure existing. But I think it should only come from the players, not the GM.

The point is simply that Methodios had no right to do anything to the marriage at all. The rules are pretty clear on this. If I allowed Tristan to interfere in the marriage, it would be a rule violation. As such, I told Tristan that my 'punishment' for his action would be an auto-declaration of war on his part. I don't see that as pressure by me, because he had another option. All he had to do to remain at peace was to decline my offer. He decided that the 'punishment' was worth it for being able to interfere in the marriage.


Sorry if this seems critical, I think that in this circumstance no harm has been done whatsoever. But I'm worried that something could happen in the future that causes the characters to act in a way that has no IC explanation.

There's no need to apologize whatsoever. It's important to raise these kinds of concerns. Personally, I've been very concerned about the reluctance of all players to declare war on one another for a long time. A lot of the excitement of the new rule set is based on in-fighting. Currently, we have all the provinces we'll need for the rest of the game and the AI is no longer a challenge. If we continue down this path of focusing exclusively on the AI, the game is likely to start stagnating. I very much believe people need to get into the habit of regarding small civil wars popping up here and there as normal parts of the game. If that requires a bit of a nudge on my part, so be it.


As I alluded to before, my more immediate problem is that apparently Methodios is the one IC who decided this should cause a war, but apart from the post in the Megas Logothetes thread there's no evidence of the thread. And who does Armatos think is speaking there? I want his position to be that what Methodios did is not, in fact, a casus belli. How does he frame such a belief? In what way would he argue for it?

I think that's the wrong way to go about it. My own impression is that Methodios' actions should be considered a casus belli for everyone. In the context of the Byzantine political and social system, his action was such a direct affront to the Basileus that every single Senator and nobleman would know for certain that it was the start of a war. The question is not whether it was sufficient provocation for a war, but whether Methodios was justified in creating this casus belli? Is his daughter's marriage to Ioannis' choice of suitor a sufficient reason, given everything you know about the political situation, to excuse Methodios' actions?

Don't think of it as Ioannis reacting to Methodios, think of it as Methodios reacting to Ioannis.

[AussieGiant]

I've used this before but it is a pertinent concept in this situation.

Old Chinese Proverb.

"Even man with gun pointed at head has a choice."

You might not think there is a choice, but there is by definition, so with two clear choices pick.

If this is the case, you will never be able to say you were forced, pushed or otherwise, because you will always be asked as to why you didn't choose the other option.

flydand my arguements in the Mag encompass this concept to a certain extent.

[Rowan]

Overwriting is the proper thing to do. As long as you didn't delete everything in the old version folder you should be fine. It just needs to overwrite a few files in the SS folder and subfolders.

Do you people want to have an executable version of the mod? Now that I have the script ready it's no big deal to make it for the new version.

[TinCow]

I think it would be very nice, particularly for people who join the game in the future. I'm very fond of how you have it set up to make a proper LotR shortcut, instead of just the icon file in the .zip.

[AussieGiant]

Do you people want to have an executable version of the mod? Now that I have the script ready it's no big deal to make it for the new version.

Rowan you big doughnut!!

'Executable', us, up the wazoo please please please.

It's blooody brillant my man.

[Smowz]

As a complete tech 'ignoramus', I would also massively apprieciate an executable as you did with the previous Rowan.

Regarding the war for the princess event, I think it is a really interesting one along with the Assassins event. It really does make one scratch their head as to how is best to react. I am completely intrigued to see what happens in this case. I also think it is a really nice way to force out the issue a little, I feel that is this was to happen in a real life medieval empire a similar situation would snowball.

[Smowz]

Nice Rowan... and a save games folder too Ta.

[Ituralde]

How do I know whether I installed the Mod correctly? I now manually copied the folder and then used the .exe provided by Rowan. I even advanced a turn, but in every case there is a lonely 1 behin the Upkeep of General Bodyguards.


Edit: And while I'm at it, where is the Man of the Hour for Vartholomais coming from, I can't find any report of a battle in the Megas thred. I'm confused...

[Smowz]

Charter Amendment 6.3: A new version of LotRmod will be released which restores the wage cost of family members and recruitable generals restored to normal; it is currently half of normal.

Iterulde, I believe the 'upkeep' of the RBG's will still be one, but the actual wages will be restored to normal.... I think any way.

As far as Varth's man of the hour... not sure I get that from the latest save. I just see the offer for an explorers guild in Nicaea.

[Ituralde]

Ah alright, so I got upkeep and wages mixed up. Still any other way to notice whether I installed it correctly. Just a bit anxious as I don't want to screw up the game. :beam:

[TinCow]

The only thing that was changed was wages, and wages are only displayed in the treasury overview screen. I can't remember exactly what the proper number is, but it's something like 9000-10000 in wages with the new version installed properly. With the old version it was about 6000-7000.

[Dafuge]

TinCow, am I done now?

[TinCow]

TinCow, am I done now?

Yes you are.

[Dafuge]

Cool. :beam:

[OverKnight]

Good job Rowan. :2thumbsup:

The shortcut to the saved game folder is a great help.

[Ignoramus]

Is it just me or don't people want a civil war? I'm surprised at how almost all of the characters abhor civil war, when it was commonplace in the Byzantine empire.

[Northnovas]

I don't think we are at the point of beating down the AI and start to beat at each other. There is still a lot of game and civil war would seem premature at this point in the game IMHO. :bow:

[OverKnight]

Well, the Casus Belli in this case is, in my opinion, a bit weak for both sides. Plus I'm playing a moderate, which I always seem to do.

Ioannis and Methodios can pursue a Civil War, but at his point it won't consume the entire Empire. The longer the threat remains however, the more likely others will be sucked in.

Edit: If Ioannis really wanted to heat things up, he'd DoW on those insolent and disloyal Senators withholding funds from the Noble and Glorious War Effort.

[pevergreen]

Or attempt to conquer the increasing amount of neutral states that only hold an oath to the empire.

[rossahh]

Is it just me or don't people want a civil war? I'm surprised at how almost all of the characters abhor civil war, when it was commonplace in the Byzantine empire.

See this:


Well, the Casus Belli in this case is, in my opinion, a bit weak for both sides.


This is more a dispute between 2 people. Ioannis is trying to force people to choose sides and make this a bigger event than it needs to be. Most people probably aren't all that keen to risk losing it all over something so small that didn't involve them in the first place.

If Ioannis wanted to see where everyone stood he could allow people to remain neutral. That way he can expose your staunchest supporters and staunchest enemies without alienating the moderates. However Ioannis's statement didn't allow for much wiggle room.

[TinCow]

Is it just me or don't people want a civil war? I'm surprised at how almost all of the characters abhor civil war, when it was commonplace in the Byzantine empire.

I know, I'm very disappointed. There was never a more perfect moment for it as far as I can tell. So many people dislike the Basileus and the vast majority of his 'loyal' followers preferred to stay neutral. If all of the Basileus' opponents had come out at once, he could have been defeated.

Again I really think that game is stuck in an obsolete WOTS/KOTR mentality. People don't realize yet that a Civil War is not a game-ending scenario. These things should be simply more powerful mechanisms for politics. I'm almost positive that this will be realized once someone has the guts to do it the first time, but apparently that first time is a lot harder to achieve than I ever expected. :shrug:

I guess as long as people are having fun it doesn't make a difference. Just don't expect me do any pumping of the AI at all. I'm not interested in it and it would only serve to focus even more player attention on the computer rather than each other.

[Ignoramus]

Wolfgang has the guts...