Small Mafia Game Chess - Game Thread [Concluded] [Archive] - Page 11

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 03:54

I mean that Zack/GH cfd is the mafia equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot if they're scum, it had a very small probability of being successful. Coupled with the fact they chose Dp101 as their target probably lowered their probability of success. Plus the amount of votes they would have had to gather to top Logic's total makes it an almost impossible feat. They're both definitely capable of defending themselves in the aftermath, but I don't think it's likely they're scum together, and even one being scum seems unlikely to me. Even if they were successful they would have bought Logic a night phase, don't think it's worth it for that.

Blue- Why you would say this, is because there needs to be a logical argument why they wouldn't do that if they're both scum, that is not just based on reading them town. Something I do if I'm scum or null reading my own buddies, is I put the thought out there that disconnects them. I don't have to town read them to defend them. I can put out the logic as to why they're not scum together without committing to a town read. You've enough experience to know this is something scums can do as well.

Orange- more logic suggesting the strategy is self-defeating. Again, don't have to town read either one to make this argument, and it dissuades people from pushing there.

Green- They don't need to get a lynch, just look unaware a scum is about to flip, and by your own admission in orange, that shouldn't have even been their actual motive. We've all pretty much decided they were betting the farm that their cfd antics would be seen as distancing themselves from the eventual scum flip. Their posts around that time indicate so, they simply bet on acting shocked that crazy pizza was actually right on his total non-case on some random low poster. That was the play. So you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. They can't be scum because it doesn't make sense as a strategy (blue/orange), but they also can't be scum because it is obviously not that strategy (green).

That's the biggest issue.

red- Well you're suggesting they're both town. I don't think you can really believe that. Some suspicion has to go their way if you're towning, Csargo. I think. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like you've got better instincts than that. And logic, when you present any.

Teal- Again, you're arguing that it can't make sense as a strategy to save Logic which means that they shouldn't be scum here. This is how you argue in their defense without giving them a town read.

It's defensible, and it needed to be argued to dissuade the town from killing them. Even when they flip, if they flip, it doesn't immediately go back to you, because your reasoning is neutral and reasonable, you were not suggesting they were town, just that they don't make sense.

Agreed, doesn't make sense. But it's what happened. And you were telling us that you did not think it was possible. That's a good way of defending a partner so you can vote elsewhere. You're dissuading people by example rather than trying to change minds.

I can see all of this coming out of Scum Csargo's brain, easily.

Doesn't mean you're scum, but it puts serious doubts about a town read I had on you.

These are the death star plans.

And you're in the chambers of the Sith Lord, watching the final destruction of the alliance, and the end of our townie rebellion.

You're watching it all unfold.

All of the townies will die. You don't know the power of the dark side.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 03:58

And as for me. Well, I've fulfilled my destiny.

I killed all those Sith Lords, and then put a shit town of Jedis to the sword, trying to find the last Sith Lord.

I am become Darth Vader.

I cannot overthrow the emperor alone. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 03:59

Star Wars. I am a fan of them.

Csargo

10-17-2017, 04:15

Well GL with your tinfoil, tell me when you want to lynch someone who might be mafia. I honestly don’t understand how you can look at my D1 this game and not see me as innocent, but I guess it’ll be revealed soon.

It's not me, it's not ATPG/Monty, that means it has to be you or Cuth. If it's Monty then he's played an exceptional game, and until ATPG brought it up last round, I didn't know lovers could be scum/town. I thought the whole point was I had a town bro to bro down with. I find it extremely unlikely that our pairing could be scum/town though, considering the apparent setup of this game. It's possible, but I don't think it's likely.

As far as your D1 is concerned, there was a lot that was good, but there was a number of things that weren't in my opinion. Your initial response to reinoe's opinion on you was good, but later posts that were targeted at reinoe just weren't. The post you made townreading Zack/GH, and trying to backpedal out of your Logic vote.

I'm basically going to ignore ATPG for the rest of this game now. I don't see the point in arguing the same things with him over and over.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 04:23

The alternative universe is one where the lovers were to somehow die tonight, leaving me with Cuth and dp as suspects.

Under such a scenario, Cuth gets a Poe vote and dp wins the game regardless of alignment.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 04:25

And option 3, dp is slain.

It's the same as if I were slain.

Csargo is the one with the winning plan from where I sit, not Cuth.

All he needs is Monty voting with him. That wins. All he needs is Monty's very townie voice arguing on his behalf.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 04:27

Your quicktopic might as well be called "the pocket".

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 04:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVJyf5yKxuo

Montmorency

Csargo started the day right away, alongside GH, Zack, Pizza, Winston, and me. He had a number of D1 interactions with Zack and others that could be seen as distancing, or slips. However, his vote on Logic shortly before EOD could be seen as decisive. Or it could be seen as bussing. That means Zack was telling the truth when he said Logic was bussed - in a way. That could be reverse-psychology ("Zack lied!") to misdirect away from Csargo.

Cuth came in shortly after Logic came under threat, poking at DP. They had a conversation, then Zack started hounding Cuth over alleged DP shade. Soon after, Logic arrived to sheep Zack on this accusation. But then he voted Kage. Then Zack seems nullish on Cuth, calls in GH, and GH makes a few reads and votes Cuth. GH makes his infamous Aladdin exhortation that Kage vote Cuth. Kage follows. Pizza and others defend Cuth, time passes, and we hear no more about him from the scum. They move on to Barto. Then Cuth returns to challenge all this stuff, and to townread Zack. So this is all also interpretable as distancing. (In the middle of Cuth's return, Xiahou arrives to vote Zack incidentally). When Cuth still has two votes on him (GH and Kage), Kage asks Csargo what he thinks of Cuth. Csargo sees it as just typical Cuth, not worth pursuing. As a result, Kage switches onto Logic and soon after, GH quasi-rands into voting Manasi. Cuth is not mentioned again for the rest of the day (other than to be moderately scum-read ("but improving") by GH. He only posts again near EOD to shade Monty-Zack and a "discredit-y" post by Logic. He never votes, and ends as the only non-voter of the day.

Csargo's level of engagement and nature of content was consistent after D1. He did post less, but it was proportional; almost everyone was posting less, especially after 3 scum had flipped.

Cuth dropped away almost entirely, whether it was a strategy, or anti-strategy, or just his feeling on the game and RL during that time.

In the end, I have Csargo's QT presence, but I don't have the same for Cuth. On the face of things, both Csargo and Cuth acted consistent with being on a scum-team with Logic/Zack/GH. Maybe if I had no relationship with Csargo, or even if we were lovers w/o a QT, I would suggest Csargo should be lynched today, and Cuth/Xiahou resolved only after. But seeing Csargo in private puts an amount of his D1 activity in a much better light, along with independently towny thoughts, so this is what I have to consider.

I have to vote Cuth over Csargo. If you think it works out better, I could be brought to vote Cuth over Xiahou today.

But I just don't see how I vote Csargo at this point.

You should have vigged Csargo when you had the shot, then dragged out Zack for all the spew. :shrug:

It was already in your mind, Monty.

Search your feelings.

Cuth is served up for you on a platter. He's even arguing that it can be dp101 tomorrow.

You have a majority read in your mind, what you've been convinced of all game long by being in Csargo's pocket, alone, with him feeding you reasons to think he's townie, away from prying eyes.

He has convinced you to lynch everywhere else.

The murders have landed everywhere else.

The scum's suspicions landed everywhere else. You and he were never seriously threatened, even based on a day or two info.

When the scums suggested there was bussing, that conclusion was always directed at choxorn, not Csargo.

All of these dark, invisible forces have been pushing you into a majority read that Csargo is town, and there are better lynches.

But inside your own process, you too saw that Csargo has what looks like a plan.

You just didn't trust yourself and couldn't pull the trigger on him. The grip he has on you is strong.

Flip your read and believe it, really believe in it.

You do not walk out of this game alive, no matter what you do.

The fear of loss is a path to the dark side. Death is a natural part of life.

Train yourself to let go of everything that you fear to lose.

Cuthillius

10-17-2017, 04:53

if it's either dp or you you literally have the game in a bag no matter what

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 04:55

if it's either dp or you you literally have the game in a bag no matter what

I feel we were on the right track in the moments before the lovers claimed.

People's reads at that point in time were correct, I think.

We've been tearing each other apart frantically ever since that time.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 04:59

If any of DP or Fredwood are scum, they are the greatest of all time.

Those isos cannot be faked.

Xiahou could conceivably fake his town game, because it's easier. You just have to copy and paste the structure and keep your head down and hope Slaan doesn't lynch you.

But he looks great.

Cuth just got spewed mega hard by GH and every other scum, so.

Chox is lock.

Those are 5 locks plus me. What else is there to do except lynch the other three.

After this point, Csargo suggested that Slaan and Xiahou become the next two lynches, and since I started up on Csargo the next day, Monty claimed.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:00

Slaan/Xiahou/not sure

Csargo's POE.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:01

i think it comes down to at this point in the game

if any of these players, excepting xiahou let's say, just did a fantastic job of looking like a villager

the game's pretty much theirs

and

it's bad to go against poe, and there's not really enough of a reason to

so

basically just

we're here now and... we'll see what happens

A bad thing for wolf!Cuth to be arguing when he's the very last person in the POE.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:03

Dp101 Cuthillius

My legacy read is to lynch Csargo.

And you'll have to talk Monty into it. On this, all depends.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:07

If we lynch Cuth, and he turns out to be scum, I'm going to change my avatar on this forum to the same Weird Al tinfoil image as Phighter's on MU.

Don't lynch Cuth.

Cuthillius

10-17-2017, 05:13

I feel we were on the right track in the moments before the lovers claimed.

People's reads at that point in time were correct, I think.

We've been tearing each other apart frantically ever since that time.

that was my point with mortal kombat

i don't know how familiar you are with the events in that game

but the people who were mechanically villagery weren't acting their alignment

and a lot of the people who weren't mechanically villagery were just astoundingly villagery aside from that

but we had to keep lynching though each other, and it was awful

we even lynched outside the poe once or twice, but that was... even worse

but just like over and over going mechanically

and there was a peeked godfather when there shouldn't have been

and we lost

but generally that's not going to be the case

have to evaluate risk/reward

usually it's bad

here i'm at the point where i

like

it's either that or dp's pulling an incredible deepwolf

and i... really don't want to commit either way, because i don't feel like it's easy to be right here

if that makes sense

Dp101

10-17-2017, 05:25

Dp101 Cuthillius

My legacy read is to lynch Csargo.

And you'll have to talk Monty into it. On this, all depends.

I'm rather ok with this at this point, literally the only thing against is why on earth is he going after me instead of cuth, when cuth is 10x as attackable.

Dp101

10-17-2017, 05:26

I feel we were on the right track in the moments before the lovers claimed.

People's reads at that point in time were correct, I think.

We've been tearing each other apart frantically ever since that time.

I also agree fully with this. Clearing them was a mistake. Montmorency, which of you suggested the claim, and if it was Csargo, what reason did he give?

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:35

I'm rather ok with this at this point, literally the only thing against is why on earth is he going after me instead of cuth, when cuth is 10x as attackable.

Because there are arguments, long forgotten, as to why Cuth is lock town.

The way the dead woofs behaved toward him makes little sense. If it's distancing, it was executed in a way that's wholly unfamiliar to me.

There needs to be an alternative to Cuth that he can vote, if for some reason, Cuth isn't an easy roll over and die lynch tomorrow.

Plus, paranoia generically looks townie.

Csargo's game is a generic looking game.

In XCOM, he went all out. He had WIM and vigor and humor and joie de vivre. I don't expect him to ever replicate that. I never once held that against him.

Here, he just looks like he is going through the motions. I identified scummy behavior from him on day one. I let him go because I was chasing too many rabbits, and under no pressure, he did okay for a while.

I think he flinched specifically when I attacked Logic.

Dp101

10-17-2017, 05:37

Because there are arguments, long forgotten, as to why Cuth is lock town.

The way the dead woofs behaved toward him makes little sense. If it's distancing, it was executed in a way that's wholly unfamiliar to me.

There needs to be an alternative to Cuth that he can vote, if for some reason, Cuth isn't an easy roll over and die lynch tomorrow.

Plus, paranoia generically looks townie.

Csargo's game is a generic looking game.

In XCOM, he went all out. He had WIM and vigor and humor and joie de vivre. I don't expect him to ever replicate that. I never once held that against him.

Here, he just looks like he is going through the motions. I identified scummy behavior from him on day one. I let him go because I was chasing too many rabbits, and under no pressure, he did okay for a while.

I think he flinched specifically when I attacked Logic.

I just don't see how anyone could see him as more lock town than I am. I mean, the wolves CFD'd on me for god's sake, like, what more do people want?

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:39

Vote:ATPG

Not a fan of his so far.

This.

Zack had voted me at the time, after I pushed Logic. Csargo also joined in.

Later he explained that I was playing the same way as XCOM but with roleplay, and listed me as scum along with Logic himself.

Much later, he busses Logic.

Later, he says GH and Zack aren't behaving this way if they're wolves. Not town reads, but still a defense.

That's your death star. Csargo defended every wolf and lynched as many townies as he could.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 05:51

I just don't see how anyone could see him as more lock town than I am. I mean, the wolves CFD'd on me for god's sake, like, what more do people want?

Game winning, as I said.

For thoroughness I put that tinfoil hat on, and it felt gross to me to do so.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 06:10

1. GH <----
2. Csargo
3. Dp101
4. Pizza<---
5. Fredwood
6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
8. Zack <----
9. Cuthillius
10. Manasi
11. Slaan
12. Reinoe
13. Choxorn
14. Winston Hughes
15. Logic <----
16. Xiahou
17. Kagemusha

Any of the bolded people I'd consider suspicious. Probably throw WH in there for paranoia reasons as well, maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons.

"maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons" <----

Logic was already under heavy pressure at the time. Everyone else in bold flipped townie or is townie.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 06:11

See the other arrows.

Pizza and Logic both, not something you really believe.

GH and Zack townies.

After they got scum read for the cfd on dp, not townie, but also, can't be scum.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 06:13

A core element of my gameplay is I do not believe in cases built on exceptions to the rule, I don't believe in winning games as town by coin flip, and I believe you can read anyone who is voting.

I believe the evidence that someone is guilty is in the thread, always, if read correctly. The later in the game, the more accurate you should be able to be.

Any suspect who cannot be found this way, I will never push.

Dp101

10-17-2017, 06:41

I just want to vote Csargo now I can't wait until day.

Montmorency

10-17-2017, 12:58

Pizza, given the roles we have seen confirmed (i.e. Choxorn and Logic), would the game be more balanced with an all-town lovers pair, or a mixed lovers pair?

I also agree fully with this. Clearing them was a mistake. Montmorency, which of you suggested the claim, and if it was Csargo, what reason did he give?

I pointed out D4 that we needed to claim, but that it would be disastrous to be lynched rather than NKed before endgame. Csargo merely said that he had no problem with claiming, and that we wouldn't be lynched because mechanically we can't be a threat to town. Within a day or two, he felt, Pizza would lynch him anyway so his play didn't matter - but he would humor me and stop screwing around.

Repeatedly expressing concerns about DP. Either Slaan is scum, or Pizza is wrong about his town.

Montmorency

10-17-2017, 19:45

FWIW, Csargo said he wouldn't lynch DP over Cuth tomorrow. He wishes we lynched Cuth or DP instead of Xiahou.

Sooh

10-17-2017, 23:03

Good morning every.... wow, so few left. We're getting down to the wire. It's almost time to crown our winner!

First though, tonight

Dp101 left us.

He was the arbiter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OutDgLmx-SQ

Your job is to make sure everything goes according to plan in the chess matches. You detest cheaters and you'll be the deciding voice in any conflict that may arise. As such, any EOD votes that end in a tie while you are still alive will be decided by you after the deadline has passed.

You are a town tiebreaker.

Vote count:

Not voting (4): Csargo, Pizza, Montmorency, Cuthillius,

With 4 players there are 3 to hammer.

EOD:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1508364000.png

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:06

You know how I feel.

This is your last chance to persuade me that Cuth is scum.

The behavior of the dead wolves makes that a hard sell, guys.

Csargo looks like the winner of the scummiest contestant. Convince me otherwise, Monty, or be convinced of my theory.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:11

Pizza, given the roles we have seen confirmed (i.e. Choxorn and Logic), would the game be more balanced with an all-town lovers pair, or a mixed lovers pair?

I pointed out D4 that we needed to claim, but that it would be disastrous to be lynched rather than NKed before endgame. Csargo merely said that he had no problem with claiming, and that we wouldn't be lynched because mechanically we can't be a threat to town. Within a day or two, he felt, Pizza would lynch him anyway so his play didn't matter - but he would humor me and stop screwing around.

Repeatedly expressing concerns about DP. Either Slaan is scum, or Pizza is wrong about his town.

That's pretty scummy there.

Csargo's never had a problem just faffing around and throwing votes at random wolves.

Such a process "pizza is gonna lynch me anyway, what I do doesn't matter" is wolfy.

Monty. Tell me how that isn't.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:20

I think it's ignore mode for everyone but the dead wolves and Csargo/Cuth/Monty.

Iso, say why each can be town, each can be a wolf, and decide after that.

I'm where I am at mostly because I already iso'ed those people, but everyone else should do the same.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:22

Montmorency

10-17-2017, 23:23

That's pretty scummy there.

Csargo's never had a problem just faffing around and throwing votes at random wolves.

Such a process "pizza is gonna lynch me anyway, what I do doesn't matter" is wolfy.

Monty. Tell me how that isn't.

Because on his own, he was POE. 'Please stop lolcatting, Csargo'. 'Doesn't matter, I'm getting lynched.' Even if Csargo were to suddenly pull XCOM-caliber gameplay out of his hat from that point on, you would find it suspicious. It's an accurate description.

He was showing regard for my own status - he wasn't playing alone. I was affected by his actions.

Pizza, it's not you and it's not Csargo.

You keep going on about plans. What plan would get the Mafia here? Maybe there was no darn plan.

I don't want to do this.

Cuthillius

10-17-2017, 23:29

Sleep and school will happen in between. But I've already done my part. If I can't read the game or am not readable based on everything that happened before now, its vanishingly small that anything I do now matters.

i'm going to have an exceedingly small amount of time today/tomorrow, unless i seriously slack off

so i'm not going to or going to be able to iso everyone and run through stuff

my positions are for the most part clear, i'm probably going to be forced to vote according to a specific pattern depending on votes, and it might end in a tie

just wanting to let you know so you don't get sad about my lack of presence

i'll probably check every now and then, but nose>grindstone tonight/tomorrow

glgl

Montmorency

10-17-2017, 23:39

You're asking me to take a heroic leap of faith.

I'm not looking at this through the Epic lens. I've messed up a lot of LYLOs desperate for that one tell. My last-minute flipped reads don't save LYLO.

The only time I've ever caught you in LYLO (or close to it), for example, town won on a coin toss. You taunted me for that.

What my straightforward thinking tells me is that Csargo is not scum, and there's no profit in considering all the ways you could be scum:

So I was like, he can possibly be scum still somehow, therefore he is scum.

Confirmation Bias.

Vote: Cuth

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:40

Because on his own, he was POE. 'Please stop lolcatting, Csargo'. 'Doesn't matter, I'm getting lynched.' Even if Csargo were to suddenly pull XCOM-caliber gameplay out of his hat from that point on, you would find it suspicious. It's an accurate description.

He was showing regard for my own status - he wasn't playing alone. I was affected by his actions.

Pizza, it's not you and it's not Csargo.

You keep going on about plans. What plan would get the Mafia here? Maybe there was no darn plan.

I don't want to do this.

Do you want me to explain it again, or is your mind made up?

I'm not ending the game on a coin flip.

If you're not persuadable then I'm wasting my time.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:43

You're asking me to take a heroic leap of faith.

No, I'm asking you to read his posts from a certain point of view, with an open mind.

Then make a decision.

Ask me questions if you're not sure.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:51

What you do is up to you. I should have pushed this harder on the day you claimed, and I should have pushed it harder yesterday so Xiahou wouldn't get lynched.

You're both alive because the scums wanted you both to be alive. The wolves' behavior shows it, the lynches show it, the murders show it.

Csargo doesn't have a town process, even in the stuff you're reporting to me from the quicktopic.

You're the only person I can persuade. You tell me when to stop trying to.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:53

Cuth isn't voting for himself, and if I'm voting for Cuth, it will be because I've failed to persuade you.

And then I still don't vote there. You and Csargo lynch him with 2 votes and everyone gets to laugh at me in postgame when it's still Cuth.

But I will put your mind at ease:

If you guess wrong, anyone who beats you up for it is a shitty person.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:54

This is internet guessing game. Guessing wrong is allowed.

Askthepizzaguy

10-17-2017, 23:55

Afk until 11 hours from now (maybe)

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 00:00

Well, look.

Voting with you against Cuth is basically symbolic if I don't agree with it. It's a symbol I don't need to display.

I'll reason with you but I won't twist arms. Don't feel like the only acceptable outcome for me is what I believe.

I just think it's this person and want you to see it too, and if it's wrong, lead me to the correct option.

But only one of us is right at the moment.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 00:08

*Not voting with you

(edit to above)

You are in a lylo situation and are town read and have another person correctly locked town. There are dead wolves and everyone's leans to read, nightkill decisions, and you shared a qt all game with one of the suspects. You have all round to mull. I'm not going to care if you guess wrong.

We all did our jobs and gave our opinions and voted. That's all that can be asked.

So the pressure, ironically, should be off. Time to relax.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 00:09

If you decide it is cuth and I can't outvote you and won't send it to a tie.

I'm not gonna speed lynch him and he won't self vote, so your current vote isn't an issue to me.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 00:17

It would be heroic to trust your gut over mine. Maybe you would find it sensible and obvious. Call Xiahou my hero shot this game.

I see your version of events in reading Csargo's posts. It's possible. It's not enough. I have more than 50% confidence now, and I had more than 50% confidence an RL day ago. I've given my reasons. I don't expect Csargo or Cuth to have anything groundbreaking to add. I don't have anything left to talk about. Actually, I have one thing. DP flipped as a tiebreaker role, almost tailor-made for this kind of final round. A tiebreaker and a (potentially unlimited) inventor/baker against a strongman and a hamstrung anti-PR, that's a tougher balance than we even imagined before. Let there be scumminess, but I don't buy your narrative thread in organizing the game. Just because I don't have a better one doesn't mean there must be a better one.

Lay it all on me: Monty vs. Pizza. Who got it more right? Who got it more wrong? I don't want to be persuadable. I don't want to say that I'll keep looking and thinking over and over until I suddenly experience a conversion. I'm not going to suggest that I maybe possibly come in voting Csargo 5 minutes before deadline to look like a badass. I believe this is the right way to play.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:09

I often change my mind after a sleep and a think.

I'll wait and give you the full time.

Otherwise, I'll accept that your mind is made up, and won't tie it, and will hope to god I'm wrong.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 01:27

I guess we'll see. Only other possibility is Monty, but I'm committed at this point. :heart:

Vote:Cuth

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:30

I am just posting to prove I am not a slow rolling, fancy playing wolf that fooled everyone good.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:31

Lock town pizzaguy. I was getting worried you might get suspected at some point in this game.

Gonna study this game and figure out how I discovered the secret to not even being suspected by the people I pushed.

It can't just be the bussing. I must have hit my stride on villageriness in my posts as well.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:33

I'll never turn to the dark side.

I am a Jedi. Maybe one about to get blasted by force lightning because I didn't keep my saber up, but I'm still a Jedi.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:34

Cuthcats?

Csargo

10-18-2017, 01:34

It's cuz you vigged Zack, which was confirmed by Choxorn at some point. Either this game is broken mechanically, or you're town.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:35

It's cuz you vigged Zack, which was confirmed by Choxorn at some point. Either this game is broken mechanically, or you're town.

One day a townie is gonna hand a wolf a vig, and they're gonna vig an outed wolf and sail through the game.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:36

Wolves can get handed the other powers from the baker guy. Don't see why their shots need to be restricted to townies, mechanically.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 01:39

Well I guess... It'd also be pretty :daisy: to get Logic lynched and then shoot Zack.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 01:39

I mean you could have done that, but I don't think you would. :shrug:

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:44

I mean you could have done that, but I don't think you would. :shrug:

I would never bus anyone on D1 like that.

Like... where I get the credit. It would have to be choosing between wagons and not wanting to look off wagon.

Bussing on day one is just awful.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 01:47

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:50

Pizza isn't a literal Sith Lord who wants to grow his power and conquer everything he lays eyes upon. It takes a lot out of him to play at his peak, and it hurts him to prevent others from enjoying the game.

Pizza has to want to solo the game before it begins, and Zack and GH and Logic have to agree.

I could possibly persuade some one to go along with such a plan.

I remember the game I persuaded spaceman and bladescape to let me bus them to oblivion way before it was lylo, and solo the game. They agreed.

It's in my bag of tricks.

Just... not Zack and GH. Neither would agree to that.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:51

So. Purely to make me feel better.

Why is Cuth a scum. What in his posts or the dead wolves' posts makes him scum?

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 01:52

I have my own tinfoil theory from before I could go re-read, but. In your own estimations.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 01:53

Cuthcats?

thrice no

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:00

thrice no

For postgame credits, was it Csargo or is Monty the greatest of all time?

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 02:12

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:25

Anyone waiting for me to vote here is just gonna have to hold their horses.

If you're set in your votes, then I guess you can walk away from the game now. If you're dead, don't expect a flip until the time is up.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:27

I don't vote in LYLO this quickly. Just how I am.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:34

For postgame credits, was it Csargo or is Monty the greatest of all time?

logically, csargo

a part of me wants to think monty from way handling you+the parts where he looked best were after all the wolves were dead/whatever

and also cs's approach to today doesn't really seem calculated or... like he's a wolf particularly and

i dunno

if i had a gun and had to shoot someone

i'd probably shoot csargo

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:36

Doesn't really matter which one it is. Lynch one lynches both.

If Csargo was town and Monty was just a really well played wolf, then. It kills him too. But Csargo's not gonna be inclined.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:40

Zack and GH perfunctory distancing for moderate points later to any scum, in the mishmash of pushes and interactions; Logic does his own thing under pressure. Potential alternative wagon for Logic, or otherwise potential counterwagon to disperse Logic wagon and make the spread vulnerable to mislynch, in midday. Cuth isn't around for EOD, Zack and GH miscalculate and expose themselves in a CFD. Cuth isn't up to power-wolfing, and Zack and GH can't survive for long. Or, Cuth chose to take the neutral path while lightly shading Logic towards EOD in one of his two posts wrt Logic all day, the other being a fluff post.

(The post Cuth quoted towards EOD was from the early game, a bit before Cuth entered, a bit after Pizza launched the Logic-wagon.)

Nothing fancy from there on. Kill people who suspect Cuth and hope for the best.

that would work if that's...

at all how the kills happened

instead, they were making mechanically inferior choices pretty much night after night, even accounting for doc stuff imo, up through last night with the dp kill

in theory, pizza should have died sooner, choxorn should have died sooner iirc, the lovers, if they were town, would/should always be dead by this point, and, if both lovers are town (assuming pizza is town as well), i don't think that dp would ever in a thousand years be killed over at least one of the two

he just had so much less going for him

so why then

maybe i did it, eh?

because the dead people were suspecting me, yeah?

and then i can just bring a bunch of ~clear villagers to f3 and paranoia them into lynching each other

well

here's the thing

the dead people weren't particularly suspecting me, none of them know my game particularly well nor are huge threats to me compared to the people alive

except for maybe chox, from a meta perspective on some level, but he was a pr

so

your scenario doesn't work the way you're laying it out

that's the rub

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:41

note:pizza's lock town at this point, unless slow roll

forgot about csargo vote

all the same it changes literally nothing

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:42

I just want to vote Csargo now I can't wait until day.

That's a neat kill choice for Cuth to make.

Bravo.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:42

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:43

Nah, wait. The only other choice is me and it's identical.

Scratch the above post.

I'm fully isoing everyone anyway.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:44

vote:csargo

badoobadoobadooduh

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:45

Nah, wait. The only other choice is me and it's identical.

Scratch the above post.

I'm fully isoing everyone anyway.

there was also me

i was undecided

between dp and csargo

effectively eliminated me from ever suspecting one of my people and thus only targeting the other person

clear proof that you're a wolf trying to manipulate me into voting csargo

for shame

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:50

I missed EoD was at work soz, thought it was between Cuth/Dp101. I didn't think Dp101's <d1> was as good as you thought ATPG. I don't have much of an opinion on Cuth, I've pretty much forgot he was in this game.

csargo

why did you think this

was it sheeping atpg's strong xiahou read and assuming people wouldn't go there?

you say you didn't think dp was that strong d1

but how do you think he's up for lynch yesterday

when that never even came close to happening

like

this pov baffles me

for the state the game was in yesterday

i get not keeping track of the game super much, but all the same

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:50

vote:montmorency

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:51

hey pizza

do you remember how much csargo was in or around thread around the chox/lovers claims?

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:56

might as well vote:Montmorency because his name's longer

not that there's any point in voting because pizza would rather the win be fair and square for the winning team whoever it is from his pov

If I'm wrong, and it goes to a coin flip, then the hundreds of hours people invested into this game total will have all been wasted on the cruelty of a coin, and the stubbornness of one guy who would then apparently only ever be satisfied if the game ended how he wanted it to.

All of that effort to win stopped by one townie, is a bad situation. There's a townie inside the lovers and they should have been able to figure it out by now. And they have info I don't.

If I'm just good at this then that would be a welcome surprise. I had fun in XCOM despite losing.

If I'm just bad then there's the following people who would really appreciate it if I didn't :daisy: up the whole game for them:

Csargo
Dp101
Fredwood
El Barto
Montmorency
Manasi
Slaan
Reinoe
Choxorn
Winston Hughes
Xiahou
Kagemusha

Throw my name in there too.

I'm not voting against one of my fellow townies in LYLO on purpose. This is a team game, and we sink or soar as one.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 02:58

hey pizza

do you remember how much csargo was in or around thread around the chox/lovers claims?

Not offhand, but since Csargo hasn't posted excessively since then, I remember also, his repeating of monty's claim is on the first page of his iso, most recent.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 02:59

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:02

i'm legitimately more engaged by this game than i have been at any point so far

i'm actually curious about who it is and why, and want to figure out

to some extent

that's cool i guess, pity i'm drowning in exponential equations

Shouldn't matter. Pretend it's Csargo but you voted Monty.

If Monty agreed with my idea that it's inside the lovers, he could self-vote and lynch Csargo that way if he were so inclined.

That would be a spectacle to see.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:10

Montmorency

Since I see you're around.

What are the chances you are changing your mind or even re-reading from this point onward?

Is it more than zero percent?

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 03:14

that would work if that's...

at all how the kills happened

instead, they were making mechanically inferior choices pretty much night after night, even accounting for doc stuff imo, up through last night with the dp kill

in theory, pizza should have died sooner, choxorn should have died sooner iirc, the lovers, if they were town, would/should always be dead by this point, and, if both lovers are town (assuming pizza is town as well), i don't think that dp would ever in a thousand years be killed over at least one of the two

No one knew we were lovers until D5. Choxorn died N5. I explained that in a generic game it makes more sense to keep lovers around as scum, especially if there are other major targets.

Choxorn claimed D4. Fred died N4. Could have been doctor avoidance. Same could apply to Pizza being alive.

DP died last night. Pizza and DP both claimed to want to lynch Csargo, then Cuth. Scum-Cuth doesn't kill lovers last night. Scum-Pizza doesn't need to kill lovers last night. Scum-DP doesn't need to kill lovers last night.

he just had so much less going for him

so why then

maybe i did it, eh?

because the dead people were suspecting me, yeah?

and then i can just bring a bunch of ~clear villagers to f3 and paranoia them into lynching each other

well

here's the thing

the dead people weren't particularly suspecting me, none of them know my game particularly well nor are huge threats to me compared to the people alive

Kage wanted you dead D3. He died N3. Fred suspected you most of anyone publicly D-N4.

Montmorency

Since I see you're around.

What are the chances you are changing your mind or even re-reading from this point onward?

Is it more than zero percent?

Cuth's kill analysis was pretty wrong. It doesn't inspire me.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:17

Cuth's kill analysis was pretty wrong. It doesn't inspire me.

Is it zero percent though?

Am I actually wasting my time in waiting here?

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:19

The reason why I asked is because you analyzed Csargo and found wolfy stuff.

For it to be zero percent here, it would be a significant change.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 03:22

Is it zero percent though?

Am I actually wasting my time in waiting here?

I don't know. Probably. If you intend to write thousands of words, definitely.

Let Csargo and Cuth have their say, and we'll talk about that instead of rehashing your already-extensive contributions.

The reason why I asked is because you analyzed Csargo and found wolfy stuff.

For it to be zero percent here, it would be a significant change.

I only have 100% chance of having one vote. I'm not in blue sky mode.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:28

I think people have already said what they wanted to say.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:35

i'm honestly at a loss of what to actually say

like

i'm happy to speak my piece, and i'd make time to do so, if there was any chance of it making a difference and us winning

but

everything straightforward's been talked over a million times

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 03:36

I don't disagree.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:41

I don't disagree.

then what is it i can say

that might sway you

is there anything i can explain better or talk through or whatever

because otherwise boom game over

and not in a sense of oh we lose, though there's that, but

hey we're basically locked into this thing of lynching me and no point in debating/talking

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:43

You know what, it's okay.

Despite what I said earlier, my heart will always be heavy about this game. I can't relax. That was my advice to Monty only.

I've been able to town read Dp, Fredwood, Monty, reinoe, Choxorn, Winston Hughes, and Kagemusha. If Cuth is a townie, here I am at lylo reading him townie too. I shot and lynched 3 wolves and lynched 2 townies. I cold read Logic scum and helped with the GH pressure, stopped counterplay there, and shot Zack who I feel could have gotten away, because people thought only one of them could be scum, even after GH flipped.

If it's Csargo, I tried to lynch him with Xiahou over Barto, and I didn't even have Barto as lock town. I called him scummy for most of day 1. I pushed him hard as hell at Lylo.

If it's Monty, no one really wolf read him and he poured his heart into the game and I have no shame in losing to him.

If it's Cuth, I'm turning what should have been a good game on my part into a disaster. I can live with Manasi on my conscience, as bad as that lynch was, I feel absolutely horrible about Slaan. Not lynching Cuth at lylo if he's a wolf here would ruin a lot of people's games.

The game outcome matters to me, but only to a certain extent.

It is still stressing me the :daisy: out and I can't sleep. Even churns my stomach a little. A game shouldn't be affecting me or anyone else this badly.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:45

I've decided that I've bled enough for this town.

There is a futility in continuing, and Monty deserves his win, if he's earned one.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:46

Monty

Tell me if you want me to continue waiting, or if you are all done with this game.

I need an order, nothing wishy washy.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:47

i mean

i'd argue that i never do the dp kill because

not only is he not less lick lockety town than pizza

but he's also somewhat prone to spooking under stress, moreso than pizza, and is less reliably going to read through everything again and come to a firm solution, likely on myself, especially if town!csargo (or monty, i guess) were to be like hur ok i suppose me gonna actually post and pour soul into this so pizza knows i'm town because he good clear me town as meta stuff by

and could much more easily be persuaded to at least tie vote, probably, given what he was saying before his demise

like

this only makes sense from my side if i'm sitting here making kills for MAXIMUM WIFOM LOL

which

well

would be stupid

but regardless

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:49

also for what it's worth

i was never really in favor of the slaan lynch

that said we were just lynching through villagery poe so /shrug

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:49

Cuth, are you also done with this game? Or do you want me to wait.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 03:52

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:52

You two people are the only townies I have left.

You have to tell me if it's time for town to resign.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:53

DP was a tiebreaker. He would have come in demanding a tie.

And I would have said, where were you D1? :S

I want to see the outcome.

and if i were a wolf, i would far rather have a tie than a ~confirmed 2-1 vote

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:54

You two people are the only townies I have left.

You have to tell me if it's time for town to resign.

it's not

it's time for us to vote chox :/

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 03:54

and if i were a wolf, i would far rather have a tie than a ~confirmed 2-1 vote

That's what I was saying to Pizza yesterday!

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 03:54

it's not

it's time for us to vote chox :/

Chox?

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:57

Chox?

sure

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 03:59

and yes, i know, and i give zero flying pelicans who i'm voting right now

as long as it's achieving the same purpose

like

i'd also be okay with everyone voting no lynch because that'd at least make me feel better because then we torture the graveyard before coming to the exact same resolution

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 04:04

That's what I was saying to Pizza yesterday!

what's your point

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 04:06

Cuth's 2607 and Monty's desire to see the flip both tell me that it's time to end the game.

Good game to the winners, I need a break from this thread for a while no matter what Cuth flips as. If he's scum, feel free to laugh at me.

Killing wolves early and then not dying compelled me to see things through and I couldn't shut it off, at all. And it's just a gross feeling.

I won't be around after this vote. It's 5am and I can't be groaning over this decision while I'm trying to learn Norwegian in a few hours.

Closing my eyes and voting, and closing this thread.

Askthepizzaguy

10-18-2017, 04:07

Vote: Cuthillius

Computer even recommends resigns.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 04:11

Rest well, Pizza. I'm sorry this made you feel bad.

GeneralHankerchief

10-18-2017, 04:14

With three votes, Cuthillius has been hammered!

The game has ended. Out of deference to the host, I will not reveal the final result.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 04:15

csargo

why did you think this

was it sheeping atpg's strong xiahou read and assuming people wouldn't go there?

you say you didn't think dp was that strong d1

but how do you think he's up for lynch yesterday

when that never even came close to happening

like

this pov baffles me

for the state the game was in yesterday

i get not keeping track of the game super much, but all the same

I changed my mind on Xiahou at some point, because of his D1/D2 vote. He was basically vote and done in pretty much every phase, I didn't think he'd leave his votes on partners, because he probably wasn't going to show back up.

I'm working off what I know, and what I know is Monty is my lover and ATPG is pretty :daisy: townie. That left you and Dp101.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 04:16

Oh well...

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 04:23

Oh well...

:no:

Csargo

10-18-2017, 05:01

I was referring to my post that was after the hammer.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 05:02

I was referring to my post that was after the hammer.

:shrug:

Sooh

10-18-2017, 05:46

Well well well. Looks like we have our winner at last! Let's first give honorable mentions to:

Cuthillius,

He was Viswanathan Anand.

http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/Viswanathan-Anand_5.jpg

Probably the chess player with the most difficult first name in the world you are a chess grandmaster and former world champion. You come from India, and the Indian Government have bestowed many honors and awards upon you. Your current rating is 2794.

You are a Vanilla Town.

Askthepizzaguy,
He was Ben Finegold.

http://web.chessdailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Finegold-5-460x368.jpg

You are an American chess grandmaster. You have a successful youtube channel where you broadcast your chess classes with the young and hopeful, telling jokes way over their heads for your own amusement and in general enjoying life. You seem to enjoy jokingly (?) insulting others and talking about yourself a lot. Your current rating is 2488.

You are a Vanilla Town.

and

Csargo

He was Anatoly Sergievsky, also known as The Russian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xnpfwTkfV0

You are a chess champion, however you disliked the pressure put upon you from your manager and also the Russian government so much so that you deserted. You are quite the romantic. Your newfound lover, Florence, is always closeby for comfort. (Let's just not mention your Russian wife)

You can commune with your lover here.

You are a town lover.

Our master though, was one very fine, UNRATED:

Montmorency,

He was Florence, femme fatale of the chess world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8vybFRVFD0

When you were young you were separated from your parents in Hungary during a rebellion, and you came to the United States. There, you fell in love with a chess champion, probably because he reminded you of your father. Unfortunately he was kind of a jerk, so while you accompany him on his journey to a championship in Milano you decide to leave him, and you meet Anatoly Sergievsky, or the Russian. He is now your lover. You can commune with your lover here.
Seeing as your alliance with the Russian is hardly going to give you everything you want, you have joined ranks with three other individuals, and in your secret lair you plot for revenge on a chess world that's full of power struggles, drama and sore losers.

You are a mafia lover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGtvekzEoSA

And this concludes our tournament.

_______________________________________________

I have decided that the quicktopics and other means of out of thread communication will not be released this game. I ask that you all respect that.

spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13fiGzsJvS7zg0tELCpjNPibYx9C-5phR2K5u16zB5Es/edit?usp=sharing)

Postgame starts now.

Dp101

10-18-2017, 05:50

WHAAAAAAAT

Dp101

10-18-2017, 05:52

Ok, so, if I might ask, what was the plan behind switching to me EOD1? Cause I still don't understand that course of action, and I don't say that as a sidelong way of calling it bad or something, I legitimately don't understand what it was meant to accomplish.

Dp101

10-18-2017, 05:54

Oh man, now that I think about it with the reveal, it's even harder to understand. A wolf wanted to CFD from a wolf to another wolf, a villager disagrees, so 2 wolves jump on him.

Also, Monty, I'm never townreading you again. Funny how lovers almost saved us in the end.

Cuthillius

10-18-2017, 06:00

ggwp monty

Dp101

10-18-2017, 06:00

GG all.

Visor

10-18-2017, 06:10

Well this was a game

Gg all

Grats wolves

Thanks for hosting sooh

Csargo

10-18-2017, 06:23

:daisy:

Kagemusha

10-18-2017, 07:23

Congrats Monty! Brilliant game. Didnt see that coming at all.Brilliant!:bow:

Also thank you Sooh for hosting and everyone for playing. This was fun!

Slaan

10-18-2017, 07:23

First off: Thanks so much to Sooh for hosting! Was actually alot of fun for the most parts :)

Seconds: Wtf ending :D. It's probably my lack of knowledge of this kind of set up but I'd never expected this. w/t lovers always constituted a 3p in all the games I've played so far so there was no chance of me ever winning this game considering everyhing else.... they could've outed themselves two days earlier and it wouldnt have made a difference for me most likely... so I guess I learned something here :D. Also: None of our towny needs to beat themselves up over it, I don't think anyone would've lynched the lovers.

Third: Monty: Sick play. While I don't think you were overall very towny your WIM all the fooking time was impressive... and probably won the game. If you'd been as iffy as others then maaaaaaaybe a lover lynch would've been a realistic option but like... yea right sounds easier to say when its done :)

Fourth: Csargo.. I hope you won't beat yourself up, chat buddying is one strong drug and Monty was sick in thread as well....

Fifth: Pizza: Holy shit you even pushed for the pair in the end (for the wrong reason but still... :D)... I'd never have done it, I'd gone with Cuth and be done with it... Really well played overall :).

Sixth: Myself: Sorry again for my outburst :(. Not something I ever do... actually thought about angly-shooty clearing myself off it later because as scum I'd have surrender after going this way... no way I ever AtE as scum, it's a digusting strategy. I also made a mistake in pusing myself, after Fred died there was a good chance of maybe me making it to F4 or w/e to have an impact still.... but I gave up and was too sure of my Xiahua read which was bad. Sorry for that as well :(. Though I'm like 99% certain I'd never have voted the lovers due to my experiece so nothing lost ^^...

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 08:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG_ZEovDDKk

"
"There were four of us this morning. I'm the only one this evening.

But I must go on."

Choxorn

10-18-2017, 11:44

Monty? He was the last scum?

The hell?

Manasi

10-18-2017, 12:10

yeah damn this game was locked ez win!!

Logic

10-18-2017, 13:05

Thanks for hosting Sooh!

Around halfway through Day 2, I thought for sure the game would end quickly and in a town victory. But it looks like I didn't have enough faith in Comrade Monty. Fan-:daisy:-tastic game, Monty.

In case anyone is curious, I don't hold anything against you for killing me day 1. I played poorly, and suffered* as a result.

*metaphorically, of course.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 17:18

I think this is definitely the first game I've won as Mafia without being carried by Pizza.

I never had a grand plan to get to endgame; didn't think there was a point to such a commitment. I always acted as I saw fit in the moment, tried to land the best safe kill, and hoped it would tide me over in sum. My townie WIM tends to increase as time goes on, so I had to at least maintain my activity in this game.

Zack and GeneralHankerchief should explain their own thinking EOD1. It just happened spontaneously. My perspective was:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oeTMukUkTAo?rel=0&start=64" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

'How I tricked an international grandmaster': Pizza, you were on an elite level, perhaps better due to the time allowed for your development. You were meant to be Strongmanned N1, but Logic died. I kept you alive afterward for WIFOM and because you liked me - hey, maybe eventually the Town could lynch you for me. But once I actually had a hope of winning the endgame, I was cursing you every night - and yet I could not kill you, whether for fear of protections, trapped in the web of WIFOM, or getting rid of the claimed PR. I'm sorry I couldn't put you out of your suffering; I appeal to destiny. I'm not sure why you town-read me more strongly than ever before. I played rather sloppy and unsophisticated for the most part and you ran circles around us. GH was privy to all my bungling, he knows what it is. I was struggling to avoid fool's mate, wondering how to draw out my resignation through pratfalls... How did you read me so town? If you never saw me so towny, even in games where I think I was townier, then surely there has been a disturbance in the Force. I suppose I've obliterated my meta and must endure the curse into the next game.

I think this is the way to explain why I won, or really why you lost: "Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole." But even if you were wrong on me Slaan and got caught up in the depth and breadth of your own thinking, the skill of your analysis there and with everyone else was peak Pizza. Maybe peak Pizza dominates the gameplay and discourages less-intense players, or even stunts the game development to some extent, but it still contributes to the overall experience. A truly awesome sight.

Winston just keeps getting better. In the old days he was but one more faceless lurker to me. Since Futuramafia I see he's top-shelf. Obvious alternative to Pizza N1.

Kage , another old master. Pizza was at his most useful after D2, and Kage seemed like the next kill down the Lock list, especially as the driver of the GH lynch, before I abandoned killing down the Lock list as a rapid way toward highlighting my own inexplicable survival in the late game.

Fred and Slaan are a bit jumbled in their thinking and presentation, but they are strong townies. Fred died N4 to silence his voice, and because I actually claimed my gift to Csargo and in the end for that and meta and mechanical reasons, I was committed to protecting Choxorn overnight.

Choxorn, well-played as the cautious PR. Your N3 gift to me worked out better than I feared it might. But you had to die eventually. Questions about how many doctor shots you had left to hand out plagued GH and I after your claim, to the point of the fear of getting blocked on the final night by your final stray gift (to Cuth or Csargo, being the only options) affecting calculations between killing Pizza and DP.

Csargo, my conjoined twin, if it makes you feel any better I struggled for most of the game to discern if you actually town-read me, or if you were plotting the optimal moment to destroy me.

Xiahou, I had hoped to see more of you, but despite - or given - your old-school lurking, your D1 record hitting GH and Zack was impressive. The D4 vote on Csargo also helped to upend the conventions of the game to that point, even if I managed to seize the initiative instead of Town.

DP, I agonized over the last NK. On one hand, Pizza would probably be more dangerous, but on the other hand, he was certainly VT by his lack of claim and lately was going full-throated after Csargo, so he should have been Cuth's last hope. And of course the fear of the stray gift.

As far as I can tell we didn't have any significant D1 strategy beyond going balls out to save Logic. I studied XCOM to see how Pizza cleared Logic, but we couldn’t put the lessons into practice. I did create the Choxorn wagon as an alternative to Logic: that was planned. The anti-Zack posts some people liked D1 (Pizza and Winston, did you already suspect Zack or was I more than a catalyst?) were an accident of my flow and not a contrived maneuver. We were really in the doldrums towards the end of D1.

I'm just saying, if you're unsure about your ability to go deep, don't bus d1 lol
I was even meant to die before Logic, or very early at any rate. As a Lover I was only weighing my team down. We kind of accepted collective death after our D1 gambits went down in ignominous failure. Zack and GH full anti-spew. They mulled over claiming Masons or Neighbours for much of D2, but in the end it would have forced a confrontation with us Lovers. I only survived by default. During D3 I said in chat, "On the other other hand, ONCE PIZZA REALIZES HIS MODELS ARE FLAWED he will seriously re- evaluate the rankings and it might not go well for me". The next day my prediction came true, but by mere fortune Pizza fixated on Slaan rather than on me, who had some of the very tells that Pizza found to pick at. Slaan was scummy and Csargo was scummy, and I was scummy for many of the same reasons as far as content and associations at certain junctures, or my omissions. I thought I was screwed D4, but then I remembered that I had a pretty good case for arguing from my lovers role that scum could not be inside lovers. Again luck, or the obverse of the bad luck of getting this kind of rand. Still think it's an odd feature for this particular setup.

Thanks to Sooh and all for another good game!

Other music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj6Q0xRW5bQ

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 17:25

Fun trivia: I'm bad at reading role PMs, so when I got mine at first I thought Csargo was my partner. I outed myself in the QT, but thankfully Csargo didn't see it before Sooh deleted the incriminating message.

El Barto

10-18-2017, 18:20

Montmorency: :bow:

Dp101

10-18-2017, 18:38

Sooh

10-18-2017, 19:15

That’s hilarious.

I was furious :P lol

I thought he had ruined the game before it started.

Kagemusha

10-18-2017, 19:40

Its a shame we cant read trough the QT's because it would have been interesting to read through the development of the scum team and also witness the dynamics of the lover team. I kind of feel bad for Csar though. Pretty cruel role to be screwed no matter how the game developed.

Sooh

10-18-2017, 19:47

Kagemusha

10-18-2017, 19:55

How so?

Maybe i just dont quite clearly understand this lover mechanics as ive not witnessed one before where one is scum and one not.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 20:01

I thought we were essentially renamed masons, until ATPG said otherwise.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 20:09

If Csargo was my lover and my whole team had died - did we elope?

Are we living happily ever after in Szeged?

reinoe

10-18-2017, 20:33

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 20:47

Montmorency

Not the greatest team performance but easily the best solo hero for a scum I've ever seen. Congratulations. I don't know I I'd have ever suspected you if I were in the game anyway. Why did you kill me?

On N3 the choices were DP-Slaan-Pizza, but the specter of a doctor, and not wanting to kill predictably straight down the Lock-Town list, led me to choose you as a kind of trick shoot.

Probably not the best option. But I made loads of blunders over the course of the game, and I somehow made it through. I guess Bobby Fischer was wrong when he said, "All that matters on the chessboard is good moves."

Sooh

10-18-2017, 20:54

Maybe i just dont quite clearly understand this lover mechanics as ive not witnessed one before where one is scum and one not.

I mean, Csargo would have to die for town to win, if that's what you mean.

And Csargo, I understood quite early on that you didn't know the distinction between lovers/masons/neighbors. Masons are the only ones guaranteed to have the same alignment. Otherwise the pairings may or may not be mixed alignment wise.

Sooh

10-18-2017, 20:56

If Csargo was my lover and my whole team had died - did we elope?

Are we living happily ever after in Szeged?

If you wish, but the mafia-chessteam delegation won the tournament. Csargo lost his game. He can still live happily ever after with you though.

Sooh

10-18-2017, 20:56

stupid browser.

Kagemusha

10-18-2017, 21:14

But I made loads of blunders over the course of the game, and I somehow made it through. I guess Bobby Fischer was wrong when he said, "All that matters on the chessboard is good moves."

A good move in chess might not be good move in mafia. You sold yourself to Csargo, Pizza and the rest of the town. Rest of the moves were not that important. No matter how i look at it. Im amazed how you pulled this through and seemingly with ease.

Logic

10-18-2017, 21:23

I mean, Csargo would have to die for town to win, if that's what you mean.

And Csargo, I understood quite early on that you didn't know the distinction between lovers/masons/neighbors. Masons are the only ones guaranteed to have the same alignment. Otherwise the pairings may or may not be mixed alignment wise.
I still don't know what neighbors are.

I've heard of lovers as a scum/villager pairing, but never seen one before.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 21:25

A good move in chess might not be good move in mafia. You sold yourself to Csargo, Pizza and the rest of the town. Rest of the moves were not that important. No matter how i look at it. Im amazed how you pulled this through and seemingly with ease.
Askthepizzaguy

I think the lesson of this game, and XCOM, and FrenchRev is that town rolling scum in the beginning of the game is quite vulnerable to infiltration by lone wolves in the "sweet spot" of middling collective rankings on alignment or POE.

If Csargo's life hadn't been linked to my own, our team could have expected to win the game from the end of D1, despite Logic's lynch, and despite Zack and GH being doomed in the POE - all because I was very townie to Pizza, but not in the Lock tier.

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 21:27

I knew it was Monty.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 21:28

I knew it was Monty.

Can we get a sample from the Dead Chat?

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 21:29

No, hang on, that's a total lie.

I had no idea.

Magnificent play, man.

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 21:29

Honestly, I went through reinoe, Slaan, Fred and just about everyone else, up to and including a late tinfoil on pizza.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 21:29

#Winstontoostrong

Sooh

10-18-2017, 21:30

No, hang on, that's a total lie.

I had no idea.

Magnificent play, man.

I was just going to say :P

Sooh

10-18-2017, 21:31

zack/pizza/gh

Plus monty if there's four.

I will say that this was a stellar post though.

Made me giggle at the time, and I even put the post number in my spreadsheet to remember it for postgame.

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 21:37

My drunk reads are legendary.

In this case, though, the list was neither honest nor serious.

I was just being provocative for the lulz.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 21:37

I will say that this was a stellar post though.

Made me giggle at the time, and I even put the post number in my spreadsheet to remember it for postgame.

I saved a lot of good posts by people in the team-chat, and Winston was relentless D1:

Damn Winston is elite...he solved the game and he could advance the scenario later

god, if only winston knew how right he was right now

Either that, or he and Zack are scumbuddies (shades of Monty+pizza in Futuramafia?)
I'm wary of being affected by pizza's mystical bit, but reading Logic's ISO suggests an underlying sense of control that wasn't there in previous games.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.

Choxorn

10-18-2017, 21:53

Honestly, I went through reinoe, Slaan, Fred and just about everyone else, up to and including a late tinfoil on pizza.

Same here. At the very end I was finding it suspicious as hell that Pizza was somehow still alive.

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 22:07

pizza, that was like hunting with Renata.

In case you thought this was just post-flip hyperbole, pizza, it wasn't.

I'm not sure even you realise how big a compliment that is.

Winning or losing, doesn't really matter. It's all about the buzz of interaction.

I know that you, like Renata, have hit that high of pure, scum-shredding mindmeld with plenty of others over the years.

But it's still an exquisitely rare feeling for me.

Given our long and storied history playing this game together, that D1 was special for me.

:bow:

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 22:08

p.s. I'm so fucking glad it was you rather than me who had to play that out. :sweatdrop:

Csargo

10-18-2017, 22:15

I mean, Csargo would have to die for town to win, if that's what you mean.

And Csargo, I understood quite early on that you didn't know the distinction between lovers/masons/neighbors. Masons are the only ones guaranteed to have the same alignment. Otherwise the pairings may or may not be mixed alignment wise.

Yeah, that really messed me up, not knowing there was a distinction between them, I would have played it differently if I realized earlier. I don't think I would have ever tried to lynch Monty, but I wouldn't have tried to survive as much as I did. Hindsight.

Sooh

10-18-2017, 22:23

Yeah, that really messed me up, not knowing there was a distinction between them, I would have played it differently if I realized earlier. I don't think I would have ever tried to lynch Monty, but I wouldn't have tried to survive as much as I did. Hindsight.

My bad. I assumed people here knew what lovers were, or that you would try to look it up when you saw it wasn't masons. I can try to add a link to an explanation next time I use roles that I'm not sure have been used here before, in the interest of fairness.

Sooh

10-18-2017, 22:31

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 22:40

I know there were bad vibes around some points in this game, but honestly I think that was just because the standard was so high.

Between the usual suspects bringing their a-games, the org legends rolling back the years, and the newcomers showing exceptional game, this was an intense environment from start to finish.

Dp101

10-18-2017, 22:51

I will say that this was a stellar post though.

Made me giggle at the time, and I even put the post number in my spreadsheet to remember it for postgame.

Imagine if that actually was the team. Trying to get any of them lynched would have been impossible.

Csargo

10-18-2017, 22:57

My bad. I assumed people here knew what lovers were, or that you would try to look it up when you saw it wasn't masons. I can try to add a link to an explanation next time I use roles that I'm not sure have been used here before, in the interest of fairness.

I shouldn't have just assumed. Should have looked it up. Now I know for the future.

Montmorency

10-18-2017, 23:07

I shouldn't have just assumed. Should have looked it up. Now I know for the future.

And knowing is half the battle. Just don't forget to make the same mistake twice.

Always make the same mistake twice.

Winston Hughes

10-18-2017, 23:08

Imagine if that actually was the team. Trying to get any of them lynched would have been impossible.

Indeed.

By far the biggest obstacle to their powerwolfing here was pizza's control of the thread.

Take him out of the equation and, for all the good reads, town lacks a coherent voice.

Put him on the other side, and it's a cakewalk for scum.

Montmorency

10-19-2017, 01:24

Just something so simple as rand has so much to say for a game. Had Slaan or Pizza been randed into the lover pair instead, the game might have been very very different. It certainly would have made things trickier for Monty :)

I think this might be more like a significant structural advantage, that if the whole team save one is eliminated early, they will have an easier time of surviving to the endgame than in normal circumstances, so long as they stick to the middle of the pack.

This is what happened in FrenchRev and XCOM as well. The "sweet spot". In FrenchRev admittedly it was multidimensional given the multiball setup, where Choxorn turned out both universally town/null-read, and perceived as much less of a factional threat by people in the other 3 (4 including Mafia, but that was just him anyway) factions. But the principle remains.

So, why did town roll in Representative Democracy and Swords & Sorcery?

In RepDem, I still struggle to interpret the effects of the unique voting structure. But it was a scum-town-scum-town lynch, at which point Zack resigned because someone false-peeked him. However, had that not happened, Zack had a decent shot of making it to endgame, being nullish, if on the scummy side, in terms of aggregate reads.

In Swords & Sorcery, massive PR proliferation, fierce networking, townie mindmelds, and the destruction of half the Mafia team in the first round isolated remaining scum immediately, next of whom was lynched D2. D3, the SK was lynched. D4, final-scum Snerk used his power to end the day prematurely, then resigned/suicided, because he just couldn't escape Town's wrath.

In this victory, the final scum, Snerk, was universally POEd, so he just didn't have much chance from D2. And if it were up to me, the game would have been much closer. I wanted to lynch atheotes instead of Visor, the second scum, and I wanted to lynch Csargo instead of Snerk. So in lynches rather than in role-action and networking, I was more of a hindrance. Thinking of everything wrong townies can get you even with a bad early game by the solo-scum, we can understand why wrong townies with a good early game by solo-scum can determine the game course, even 4, 5, 6, lynches out.

Lesson is I think, lock it in D1 and ride the wave all the way to LYLO for Mafia; pick who dies in your team on that basis, if it comes down to that. For Town I think the policy lynch for 'scum rekt' scenarios should be, always start from the middle of the pack. AND DON'T LOCK MORE THAN 3 PLAYERS AT A TIME.

This deserves discussion. Speaking of which, where are my scomies at?
Zack GeneralHankerchief

GeneralHankerchief

10-19-2017, 02:21

GG all, congrats to Monty, and thanks to Sooh for hosting! :bow:

This was a really weird game for me so I'm not really sure how much I should contribute, so let's just put in a couple of general comments now:

1. Strategy: In pregame and D1, the goal the mafia team agreed on was to take control of the thread, keep each other as consensus towns, and, most importantly, keep Logic the strongman alive so we could ensure a kill on Pizza or Winston without having to worry about doctor protection etc. Obviously this blew up in our faces for a number of reasons - Pizza was too persistent, hit the right target, and we weren't townreading each other as much as we initially agreed on. By the end of the day, it became apparent that our Plan A had failed utterly, and I don't think any of us were prepared for an alternative.

2. The Dp101 CFD: I usually don't like to talk about my own approach in terms of playing games for a variety of reasons, so here's a little secret: sometimes, as mafia, I do things just to do things. This is generally done to combat the whole "mafia have a specific agenda they need to accomplish and you can use this knowledge when hunting them" tactic. This was the case for the Dp CFD attempt on D1. I can't speak for Zack, but I honestly think I would have done the same thing - though perhaps to a lesser extent - as town. This kind of fell in line with Plan A completely falling apart. I knew it wouldn't change anything, we didn't really have a fallback plan in place at this point in time, so I just wanted to have some fun before the guillotine dropped. It wasn't desperation - we knew Logic was drawing dead - it was just stress relief.

3. Thoughts on game balance: The initial impression judging from the roles we had access to was that town didn't have much in the way of power roles. A one-shot strongman is a decent role but isn't exactly superpowered, and a mafia/town lover team is actually an additional crutch for us. In addition, the fact that the thread remained open at night was rough, as over the years I've gotten used to completely putting the game out of mind at night and just recharging the batteries for the next day - meanwhile, the town was continuing to solve. Because of the public nightchat, I think the mafia being offered the choice of being allowed to stay in scumchat to help out or not is reasonable enough of a compensation for this. In addition, the Choxorn role seemed fine, and the Dp tiebreaker role... man, I'm just glad Monty killed him instead of Pizza that final night. :laugh4:

I have other thoughts as well but I think this will serve for now. Again, a big thanks to Sooh for hosting this and everybody for playing!

Dp101

10-19-2017, 04:47

2. The Dp101 CFD: I usually don't like to talk about my own approach in terms of playing games for a variety of reasons, so here's a little secret: sometimes, as mafia, I do things just to do things. This is generally done to combat the whole "mafia have a specific agenda they need to accomplish and you can use this knowledge when hunting them" tactic. This was the case for the Dp CFD attempt on D1. I can't speak for Zack, but I honestly think I would have done the same thing - though perhaps to a lesser extent - as town. This kind of fell in line with Plan A completely falling apart. I knew it wouldn't change anything, we didn't really have a fallback plan in place at this point in time, so I just wanted to have some fun before the guillotine dropped. It wasn't desperation - we knew Logic was drawing dead - it was just stress relief.

and the Dp tiebreaker role... man, I'm just glad Monty killed him instead of Pizza that final night. :laugh4:

Yeah, I didn't really quite believe my own scumread of you at that point, because I know that a. my opinion on CFDs is against the grain, and b. some people like to criticise me for it. Tbh I think you could have both gotten away with it if you saw it as one black mark rather than completely flipping your read, but eh.

Yeah once I died I was rather put out, I wanted to use my role at least once. It could have won us the game ;-;

Sooh

10-19-2017, 13:56

Yeah, I didn't really quite believe my own scumread of you at that point, because I know that a. my opinion on CFDs is against the grain, and b. some people like to criticise me for it. Tbh I think you could have both gotten away with it if you saw it as one black mark rather than completely flipping your read, but eh.

Yeah once I died I was rather put out, I wanted to use my role at least once. It could have won us the game ;-;

Let me tell you a secret. I was kinda sad that Monty changed his kill, because I was looking forward to the mind:daisy: moment when you had to decide who would die.

Choxorn

10-19-2017, 14:13

And knowing is half the battle. Just don't forget to make the same mistake twice.

Always make the same mistake twice.

Fool him twice... you can't get fooled again.

This is what happened in FrenchRev and XCOM as well. The "sweet spot". In FrenchRev admittedly it was multidimensional given the multiball setup, where Choxorn turned out both universally town/null-read, and perceived as much less of a factional threat by people in the other 3 (4 including Mafia, but that was just him anyway) factions. But the principle remains.

I'm not sure if I'd ever be able to pull that off again, because by now everyone knows how good I am at faking tone and I'd probably get paranoia-lynched at some point, regardless of whether I was actually scum or not, unless I had some really hard mechanical proof of my townieness.

Yeah, I didn't really quite believe my own scumread of you at that point, because I know that a. my opinion on CFDs is against the grain, and b. some people like to criticise me for it. Tbh I think you could have both gotten away with it if you saw it as one black mark rather than completely flipping your read, but eh.

For me, I already thought Zack and GH looked kinda scummy for other reasons- if I was townreading them I might have just thought it was odd and ignored it, but since I wasn't the CFD just looked like another red flag on the pile of red flags I was already seeing from them.

Dp101

10-19-2017, 15:55

Let me tell you a secret. I was kinda sad that Monty changed his kill, because I was looking forward to the mind:daisy: moment when you had to decide who would die.

lol, well, I think Monty would have died for the wrong reasons in that case. Hell, maybe even fro the right ones, going back and rereading his posts on the final day with full knowledge makes me feel like they weren’t quite as rock-solid as the early one, specifically around justifying his vote and how he talked to Pizza. I’m not sure if I would have figured it out, but I’m confident that the signs were there and I could have done it.

Montmorency

10-19-2017, 17:06

lol, well, I think Monty would have died for the wrong reasons in that case. Hell, maybe even fro the right ones, going back and rereading his posts on the final day with full knowledge makes me feel like they weren’t quite as rock-solid as the early one, specifically around justifying his vote and how he talked to Pizza. I’m not sure if I would have figured it out, but I’m confident that the signs were there and I could have done it.

It's funny, because in my view those were some of my towniest intonations all game.

I think this is definitely the first game I've won as Mafia without being carried by Pizza.

Actually, that's not quite true. There was the Pizza-hosted Darkling game with Diana, Zack, and edse. I got lynched D1 and pissed Diana off by expressing pro-town positions in the QT. (She got her revenge in Pirate II)

And for the epitome of "carrying" there's History of Violence, the Visor game Pizza sometimes references in regard to me and bussing. He lynched me, his only partner, D1 and soloed the game.

I still can't believe I called myself an "unstoppable mafia god" and got away with it.

This game was nuts.

It's true. He said this after a mislynch with a couple rounds to go, and still won:

ON SNAP, PIZZA WINS AGAIN!!! WOOOT WOOT WOOOOOT

Play the freaking victoly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7tMzrq43vE) music.

I am an unstoppable mafia GOD!!!!

I wonder where Pizza is. I hope he hasn't been driven mad by late events.

(Pizza... wherever you are... we're thinking of you)

Slaan

10-19-2017, 18:40

Just something so simple as rand has so much to say for a game. Had Slaan or Pizza been randed into the lover pair instead, the game might have been very very different. It certainly would have made things trickier for Monty :)

Oh I probably would've been just as bamboozelt... lovers on my homeforum always win together, so if they are town/wolf they are essentially 3p with the wolfpartner having access to wolf chat so I'd assume that monty had no reason to lie to me and I'd just assume that we were v/v without ever looking at it >_>

Fredwood

10-19-2017, 19:54

Grats monty, wp. I had come to the conclusion that it could have been anyone but Pizza, this POE was annoying.

Funnily enough I started scum reading Slaan for his positive read on you. I should have pursued the nag on you after the ISO, but I legitimately couldn't get why anyone why someone would just seemingly make up reads...I mean I guess I should change the approach, but I'm not really sure how to handle that. Even without the Slaan stuff, I'm not sure the outcome would have been much different, maybe we get a CSargo lynch, but we had the chance when we lynch Barto, I was right on my read on Csargo though, just lynching less townie over slightly more townier townie at that point.

Sooh

10-19-2017, 20:18

Pizza will join us when he has gotten some distance to things I think.

Zack

10-20-2017, 03:52

~~~An Appreciation of One of Our Betters~~~

Friends, Orgahs, fellow countrymen. I stand before you all today with the intent to extol the many virtues of one of our number. You may be surprised by whom I about to speak of, but the reason for my doing so is simple: Among his many admirable qualities, his humility perhaps shines most gloriously of them all. Thus the task falls upon me to wax poetic about the man who deserves all of the accolades we can think of. I speak, of course, about GeneralHankerchief [sic].

If you're not familiar with GeneralHankerchief, perhaps you might know him by one of his alter egos. GH, Jeff Probst, he even briefly went as Fuchs in a very successful tenure in the legendary game MU Anniversary where, of course, he was immediately named a Gentleman and a Scholar, and hastened Visorslash's release to a remote cabin in the woods for a month with no internet access, where he recorded a failed folk album. His post total accumulated from that single expedition was high enough to receive lucrative offers from Yates and faZ, and his name still rightly strikes fear in the heart of many a Werewolf.

He is a decorated and exemplary host, welding together the same universe in his famous Mafia X series with the raw power of an electric razor yet also the fine precision of a jackhammer. In terms of hosting games set in a dubiously historical universe - which I notoriously despise - there is perhaps no finer and more talented figure at this than GeneralHankerchief. His French Revolution game somewhat demonstrates his skill at this always-difficult task.

GeneralHankerchief's skill as a player is also, of course, unmatched. Truly khaan's better half, GeneralHankerchief has weaved through the myriad of thankless roles he has been assigned over the years, always cutting the most robust figure on the dance floor that is our lives. He also made the finals of the annual Mafia Championships a year after such noted competitors as Zack and Askthepizzaguy, and did better than Visorslash, who could only muster up a D3 lynch while GeneralHankerchief, known for his perseverance and refusal to give up, lasted all the way until D4.

Yes, truly GeneralHankerchief is a shining example and role model to all of us on all possible fronts that you can think of. While Montmorency may have been GeneralHankerchief's only wolf teammate to ever survive a game, while Seamus Fermanagh may have the best hand-written notes, while Askthepizzaguy may have been a more active member of the community, and while Visorslash may be the Mike to my Hunt, there is one person who shines above them - and us - all. I speak of the one and only...

Heart-stopping,

Pants-dropping,

House-rocking,

Earth-quaking,

Booty-shaking,

Pelt-taking,

Looooooove-making...

The one...
The only...

The great...

GeneralHankerchief!!!

Long may he grace us with his presence!

Montmorency

10-20-2017, 04:02

Pelt-taking?
----
Wolf pelts. :curtain:

Logic-taking?

Zack

10-20-2017, 04:07

Pelt-taking?

wolf pelts

Kagemusha

10-20-2017, 16:10

So apparently one might consider that Zack enjoyed playing with GH..:square:

Askthepizzaguy

10-20-2017, 18:22

Congratulations, winners.

Thanks for hosting, Sooh.

Askthepizzaguy

10-20-2017, 18:47

Pizza will join us when he has gotten some distance to things I think.

As for my fellow orgahs:

Keep your sabers up. I've enjoyed spending the past decade playing with you.

Logic

10-20-2017, 18:48

Pelt-taking?
----
Wolf pelts. :curtain:

Logic-taking?

What do I have to do with this? Zack's extolling GH, and never once mentions me (nor an uncapitalized logic.)

Dp101

10-20-2017, 18:55

As for my fellow orgahs:

Keep your sabers up. I've enjoyed spending the past decade playing with you.

Why are you making it sound like you are leaving.

Askthepizzaguy

10-20-2017, 19:06

Why are you making it sound like you are leaving.

These games are destroying the relationships I have with my friends.

And I am compulsive and cannot stop myself from trying. It's not healthy.

Askthepizzaguy

10-20-2017, 19:07

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.

Montmorency

10-20-2017, 19:20

I'm so sorry.

Askthepizzaguy

10-20-2017, 19:23

I'm so sorry.

Don't be. You rocked this game. This is all inside my head, it has nothing to do with you. Had town won the game, I'd feel the same way.

Going to school and trying to pay attention on no sleep is not realistic. Being unable to stop myself means I have to not put myself in this position.

Kagemusha

10-20-2017, 19:27

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.

I feel you. I dont make 800 posts in a game, but many times i have gone too deep in the game and it becomes draining. Now after a long break i feel rejuvenated and also have healthier less emotional view in the game. It has always been a pleasure to play with you or against you. Rest and relax now old friend and come back when you feel like it.:bow:

El Barto

10-20-2017, 19:32

My drunk reads are legendary.
This is what I was aiming about when I made an offhand comment, early in the game, about players (cofcofalsohankerchiefcofcof) being/getting hammered.

I got 800 posts and almost no sleep for a week in a guessing game. Time to put this habit down since I'm out of control.
I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

Montmorency

10-20-2017, 19:36

I hope we can help you maintain a healthy level of activity, next time.

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

Limit number of posts by players during day (unlimited by night - or the reverse?)

Choxorn

10-20-2017, 19:38

Don't be. You rocked this game. This is all inside my head, it has nothing to do with you. Had town won the game, I'd feel the same way.

Going to school and trying to pay attention on no sleep is not realistic. Being unable to stop myself means I have to not put myself in this position.

Well, yeah, that's why I only post like 5 times a phase these days, because I'm being realistic and knowing I don't have time for much more than that.

El Barto

10-20-2017, 20:04

I hope we can help you maintain a healthy level of activity, next time.
I'll try and host such a game soon™, i.e. after term ends, if there's nobody else hosting.

Well, yeah, that's why I only post like 5 times a phase these days, because I'm being realistic and knowing I don't have time for much more than that.
Yes, believe it or not, whenever I'm playing during a term at uni I place a limit on how much time and attention I dedicate to mafia. This last year or so I've even played only the one game at a time.

Askthepizzaguy

10-20-2017, 20:21

This is what I was aiming about when I made an offhand comment, early in the game, about players (cofcofalsohankerchiefcofcof) being/getting hammered.

I was thinking that to myself while we were playing. If we're stupid enough to let you hog the thread, fine, but you're still spending too much time on a game. Maybe you should only join games where the GM enforces a daily posting quota?

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

El Barto

10-20-2017, 21:08

Hmmm. (I actually read that post). It seems that you lack the moderate amount of self-control that even I have. You're getting burned out and letting this get to you. For the record, I think that you began to overthink the game –this game, not necessarily the game in general, as I haven't been playing much myself this year. Yes, you really should drop it for the time being.

Montmorency

10-20-2017, 21:34

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

My unsolicited observation: what you're describing are general personality or psychological issues that need to be addressed as such, outside the scope of the gaming community. IIRC you once mentioned being affected by bipolar disorder, and how this influenced your play, and sometimes detracted from your enjoyment.

It would be selfish of us to want you sticking around all for the sake of our amusement; admittedly you are right. You shouldn't return to Mafia until you feel you have managed to get your worst excessive compulsions under control, and that surviving another game past D1 won't cause you to spiral out in a destructive or guilt-inducing way. If you decide the community can play some role at any time, I think we will be here for you.

I hope you succeed and return. All the best to you and Sooh.

Kagemusha

10-20-2017, 22:07

Won't help, I will just end up fitting the same content into fewer posts and spacing them out.

Then the posts become even less effective because they're walls. I never mastered doing more with less, and it's because I can't.

I try roleplaying, I've played under alts (rarely), and eventually, if I'm town, the same patterns emerge. I have to be outside of my wolf game, I have to find the scums, I have to stop townies from being lynched, I have to get people to see the correct answers, I have to keep checking in case my own answers are incorrect, I have to.... have to have to have to.

It's in my nature.

Logic has a nature, Xiahou has a nature. I used that to make reads on them that were accurate and unique, what others didn't see. We all have a nature. My nature is not something I can change, once the compulsion triggers.

The only way to stop it is to not start it.

I don't even care that this compulsion leads me to suspecting the lovers for the latter bit of the game. Don't care. Even if I lynch Csargo and Monty dies and I was half right and right enough to win and successful in my endeavours, I still drained my body and mind and put my health at risk over a game where you guess things at people. And for what?

What is the point?

I don't have to see to be able to know, even if I succeed, that's still not winning. I've started to become a bad player by my own definition of what a bad player is. Hence, I can't see the dead quicktopic or scum quicktopic or chat.

I know what's in there, I can take a wild guess.

It's not worth it to me, or anyone else, for me to keep this up. I let the game get to me. I can't keep doing that.

Pardon my French, but Pizza you have to take a step back and say fuck that. It is a game and supposed to be fun. If it is not and instead hurting you or your life you need to ditch the bastard and let it dry on the rocks. Maybe one day a beautiful flower will grow from that carcass and it will be again something to enjoy, if not fuck that. Life is important, loved ones are important. Your own well being is important. Fuck that shit if it hurts you in any way. Im sure there arent a single coherent English sentence at any of the forementioned, but im sure you understand the meaning.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 01:23

I think a big part of it is that I've never been all that satisfied with my town game.

I have nothing left to prove as a mafioso. But my town game is maybe 50/50, as most people's town game is when they're over 100 games. You don't get significantly higher than that because it is a team game.

But this year in particular I've been working on it.

In the past 3 games, on here and on MTGS, I've caught 3 wolves in each game. That's 9 wolves in 3 games. But I didn't win either of the first two games I am mentioning here, because one got away.

And here. One got away. But it was within my power to make it happen, if I figured it out and convinced the correct people, because there might have been doc protection on me, leading the scums to shoot away. The other games, I died after finding a scum and pointing at the other two.

This was the game where I was gonna actually finish a game out. I was trying to prove something to myself, that my town game was not shit.

But even at the end, if I had gotten what I wanted and the final scum died, once that compulsion was over and done with, I'd still be here in this same situation.

It has to be okay to not catch every scum, and for me this game, it was not okay. I needed to get them all or I was a worthless player, and my town game was never going to be any good at all.

And I never held anyone else to such standards in all my years of playing mafia.

As recently cited (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17375699&postcount=1) to someone else about being a good player, because they thought they were not good enough to play on MU:

What makes a good werewolf player?

I have noticed over the years that players seem to be under the mistaken impression that they need to win oodles of games and/or win as werewolf and/or lynch all the scums as villager and/or never lynch villagers as villager in order to be a decent player.

I think I touched on this a bit before my first game here on this forum.

Okay, let us imagine this ideal werewolf player. They only accuse the wolves as villager, they never accuse villagers as villager, and they always win as wolf. Somehow. They win 90 percent of the games they play. They've been playing for 10 years.

Now let us imagine they have no further redeeming or endearing qualities. They don't really converse with their fellow players, they have no sense of humor, they think little of everyone else's earnest efforts, and they take the game personally. They also drop from games for no reason without explanation.

Is this person a good werewolf player?

No.

They might be skilled, but they aren't a good player.

A good player, let us imagine him or her for a second. The ideal good werewolf player.

They are wrong sometimes and right sometimes. (That's pretty much everyone.)
They want to share the game experience with other players, and get involved by conversing with the rest of the players, on their team or not.
They have a sense of humor or can appreciate others' attempts at humor.
They don't take it personally if you're wrong about them, or lose the game for their team.
They sign up for games only if they truly intend to give it their best effort.
They notify game hosts when they need to drop, with a reason why, preferably.
They are at least aware of the vote tally when one has been posted, and aware of when the round ends, and try to make decisions that help their team.

And that's it.

They don't need to be particularly good at accusing anyone. They don't need to be accurate. They don't need to be a leader, or extremely talkative.

It is, at the last, a guessing game between friends, a casual experience. Some really put in the effort and try to find all the wolves themselves, but that is not a requirement.

If you show up and try, and you keep things in perspective, and you notify game hosts when you can't play anymore, and it's not an every game thing where you need to drop out, then you are a good player.

I'd rather play with 20 good players than one "skilled" player who has no other redeeming qualities.

So please, take that to heart.

And keep it in mind if I kinda suck out loud one game. LOL http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif

But this is the problem. I broke my own rule. I was basically becoming the wannabe skilled player with no other redeeming qualities. Harmful to my own enjoyment of the game and that of others.

That's really why I am stepping away.

I am holding myself to a double standard. I've always said it's okay for others to guess wrong, but I badly broke that rule this game, for myself.

Montmorency

10-21-2017, 01:41

Lord knows I myself expose a facet of the 'super-serious, anti-teamplay' drive, where I just know that with A LITTLE MORE power, I can pool the townies' efforts together, overwhelm the scums, and save everyone - even if I have to kill most of them to do it. All resistance must be quelched at any cost, else they doom us all. DOOM US ALL

As the Russian goes, "The refuser will be neutralized."

...

So, what made you read me so towny this game?

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 02:01

So, what made you read me so towny this game?

The part that finally convinced me, despite the fact that I had been pushing you down into the POE one day, on the 6 versus 3 correct solve I did (and wandered away from...)

After you claimed lover and it was clear we weren't lynching you ever, you spent hours doing analysis including that on potentially scum-reading your lover partner. Which, if I called your bluff and insisted we lynch, you lose.

You didn't have to do any of that, you'd have likely won with less. So you cleared the hurdle by the height of satellites in orbit around Earth.

If you hadn't done that on that day, then I would have had you and Csargo about equal and made more of an effort to convince him to lynch you, and vice-versa, as opposed to only trying to convince you to lynch him.

I can cite the post(s) in question, but I already have when I was trying to convince you to lynch him. When you put Csargo's behavior as potentially villainous many times, I thought you don't do that unless you're town.

That was when you finally got really out of the way of my suspicions. Had you not done that things may have gone differently.

Montmorency

10-21-2017, 02:14

The part that finally convinced me, despite the fact that I had been pushing you down into the POE one day, on the 6 versus 3 correct solve I did (and wandered away from...)

After you claimed lover and it was clear we weren't lynching you ever, you spent hours doing analysis including that on potentially scum-reading your lover partner. Which, if I called your bluff and insisted we lynch, you lose.

You didn't have to do any of that, you'd have likely won with less. So you cleared the hurdle by the height of satellites in orbit around Earth.

If you hadn't done that on that day, then I would have had you and Csargo about equal and made more of an effort to convince him to lynch you, and vice-versa, as opposed to only trying to convince you to lynch him.

I can cite the post(s) in question, but I already have when I was trying to convince you to lynch him. When you put Csargo's behavior as potentially villainous many times, I thought you don't do that unless you're town.

That was when you finally got really out of the way of my suspicions. Had you not done that things may have gone differently.

I said this a lot in the chat (to myself), but I really did want to vote Csargo at several junctures. You had a great case, even if it was misguided. Before the time when doing so would actually have amounted to throwing the game against my team - this was when I was still treated the game as unwinnable - I thought to myself how great it would make you feel, if you managed to convince me to vote Csargo and thereby lose the game. 'Pizza's so good he can convince a mugger to hand him a 20, a supervisor to endorse his promotion over them, and final scum to lynch themselves!' Same thing with Slaan, though I felt like I had to push back because the case was ultimately too ambitious turning on small points.

How could Town Monty resist the lure of such a detailed case against Classic Org Lurk-Scum Archetype? Really only the network impulse. If I'd had to claim D4 or earlier, I probably also wouldn't have been able to justify avoiding pro-Town self-sacrifice in the face of such good casework.

How about earlier in the game, D1 through Manasi's lynch? Something about the way I was interacting with Zack, among other things, led you to publicly declare an explicit townread on me.

Kagemusha

10-21-2017, 02:17

Pizza self reflection tells me you are healthy. Look at me back in the day i was sort of good player, when mafia was a new thing here at Org. Both as mafia and town. If i remember right im still undefeated in GH´s vanilla mafia´s as scum and i also saved the town as townie in the same games once or twice.

Looking at retrospect i peaked at Capo II at 2008 when i was able to unite the rivaling mafia factions in order to defeat the town, with daring united push of scum, but at the same time i became so happy with myself that i forgot what was the idea of the game: To win. I forgot that and lost with a grand bang of course, but still lost. From there on my mafia game has been a downward spiral of 9 years. Mostly because i always told myself how great i am, while accusing this and that for my blunders. Loosing energy to all kinds of nonsense and never really looking it from outside perspective and keeping it simple.

I remember when you appeared to the games here in Org and for some time i was pretty much obsessed with you, mostly in negative way as you seemed to be all over the place, which was yet another excuse to not self reflect for me. Why i could not cope with this talkative style of play? Because i did not bother to lay down the effort. My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now. At that point i came to realize how brilliant and clear sighted you were behind all that talk and have appreciated you ever since.

Still no matter what i just kept getting worse and worse in this game, more frustrated i got, worse i got and in the end in my last games as scum or townie i was lynched at first rounds or i simply lost interest and got Wogged.

Thankfully in the end i got so busy in real life, having to run a company for couple years now and getting married last fall. I decided i did not need the stress of sucking at this game anymore. During this hiatus i came to understand how important stuff this really is and how big deal these games are... That is why i decided to try again and now without any pressure anymore this was actually fun and im sure il take another jab at the game again. How much i suck at this for me is a no concern anymore as long it will be fun.:yes:

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 02:18

Pizza
choxorn
dp101
Fredwood
Cuthillius <-----
Xiahou
-----
Monty
Slaan
Csargo

Even above Xiahou here.

Terrible!

Lover claim made us go outside the POE. "Should have stuck to my guns".

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 02:23

My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now.

Crazed rabbit's The Shadow Fort, one of the org's best flavorful games of all time.

Montmorency

10-21-2017, 02:28

My opinion about you though changed at point when we played together as scum in a vampire game, which name eludes me now. At that point i came to realize how brilliant and clear sighted you were behind all that talk and have appreciated you ever since.:

Seems like you had another vampire game, Andres' Daggers in the Night (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?126833-Daggers-in-the-Night-Concluded) in 2010. It was the first Mafia game I ever spectated, a year before I played my first (online). Trademark ORG complexity and flavor. In those times, the post count seemed tremendous. Now I can't even imagine what a 40-player D1 would look like.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 02:36

How about earlier in the game, D1 through Manasi's lynch? Something about the way I was interacting with Zack, among other things, led you to publicly declare an explicit townread on me.

I believe I'd be rehashing things. I may have said it somewhere already, pretty sure even. Trying to move past it now. :bow:

That plus your high effort, and you were making sense to me, gave you town points. But the whole game I was saying how amazing you are as scum and how it's possible.

I made the conscious decision to put you as town several times. It was only because I could actually lock several folks, like dp or fredwood or xiahou, that pushed you down and out of my town at all. I saw the tie suggestion from you on d1, to put choxorn as a tie... that was the only truly scummy thing you did all game.

That, and the dark force theory. Except it applied to you and not to Csargo. I saw that the scum was inside the lover team, and made a decision who it was. The lynches, kills, and behavior of the dead scums all pointed at the lover team.

Just... got the wrong one. And final 4 was too late if I was pushing the wrong member of the pair.

My vote on Cuth was me realizing we had lost.

Kagemusha

10-21-2017, 02:47

Seems like you had another vampire game, Andres' Daggers in the Night (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?126833-Daggers-in-the-Night-Concluded) in 2010. It was the first Mafia game I ever spectated, a year before I played my first (online). Trademark ORG complexity and flavor. In those times, the post count seemed tremendous. Now I can't even imagine what a 40-player D1 would look like.

Good old times. ~D Should just take some time and read at least some of those old games. So much fun during so many years.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 03:02

Dp101

10-21-2017, 03:10

I hated making a vote I was reasonably certain didn't win the game, too.

But I was tired of suffering over the game and Cuth looked like he had had enough as well.

I apologize for that choice, but... I had to. Enough was enough for me.

I understand, even if part of me wishes that you tied the vote and rolled the dice. Take a break as long as you need to, just know that we dont expect you to do anything more in these games than what you want to. Yes, at times, you put winning over others in this game, but please go back and find all the times that you didn’t. I am not saying that a break is not healthy, I just don’t want you to see yourself as a complete failure when you have inspired me to become so much better at this game.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 03:16

I understand, even if part of me wishes that you tied the vote and rolled the dice. Take a break as long as you need to, just know that we dont expect you to do anything more in these games than what you want to. Yes, at times, you put winning over others in this game, but please go back and find all the times that you didn’t. I am not saying that a break is not healthy, I just don’t want you to see yourself as a complete failure when you have inspired me to become so much better at this game.

This is my thoughts on voting to tie it:

Monty then wins or loses the single greatest game he's ever played, due to the outcome of a coin flip.

If you were alive instead of me on final 4 it would have been a win, even if you lynch Csargo with Cuth. Gets the job done.

Instead, he correctly killed the double voter, and survived attempts made by me and others to get Csargo lynched. He earned it.

To me, if town earned it, they would have earned it by not lynching Xiahou and lynching even Csargo would have been fine, because it gets the job done. Town didn't quite earn it at the end.

I allowed my townies to get lynched, in Xiahou and Cuth. I should have insisted, but if I do that, then I'm just the dick who cannot play mafia unless he always gets his way on every lynch.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 03:18

I ran into the brick wall several times of playing the game to win, or playing the game with friends I wanted to keep after the game.

The only real rule: "Don't be a dick." I was trying not to be. Apologies to anyone who felt I was.

Kagemusha

10-21-2017, 03:25

I hated making a vote I was reasonably certain didn't win the game, too.

But I was tired of suffering over the game and Cuth looked like he had had enough as well.

I apologize for that choice, but... I had to. Enough was enough for me.

I was convinced until the very end that Cuth was the mafia, i just couldnt let go of the thought. I actually predicted that Xia would flip town and you would be night killed, while Monty would save the town by getting Cuth lynched. See how that prediction unfolded...:square:

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 03:30

I said all the reasons why Xiahou was town, and we all identified Cuth's and the dead wolves' posts which locked him town.

Allowing both of those people to be put outside of our town circle is how we lost.

The POE of Monty, Slaan, and Csargo was correct and it would have been over in any 2 of those lynches, and I chose the only wrong one.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 03:31

The game is town's to lose, and we somehow managed to lynch the exact wrong people.

Not even just regular wrong people, the only wrong people that allows Monty to win.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 03:37

There are many situations in chess where there's only one move which loses. And people choose that one wrong move often enough.

It happens. Not even mad about Monty winning, only upset at my own behavior.

Kagemusha

10-21-2017, 03:40

Dp101

10-21-2017, 03:41

The game is town's to lose, and we somehow managed to lynch the exact wrong people.

Not even just regular wrong people, the only wrong people that allows Monty to win.

Stop thinking like this. Just focusing on the mistakes and the need to be correct is exactly what you were saying that you were trying to avoid. Yes, see the parts of your behaviour that you need to fix, but, like me, you need to let go sometimes.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 04:06

Stop thinking like this. Just focusing on the mistakes and the need to be correct is exactly what you were saying that you were trying to avoid. Yes, see the parts of your behaviour that you need to fix, but, like me, you need to let go sometimes.

I'm there, I've already made the decision for myself.

That comment was more game-related post-mortem. Why town earned the loss and why Monty earned the win.

The signature doesn't lie.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 04:14

As I discussed with someone privately, if I ever play again I need to:

1) Have a wordcount per post restriction self-imposed
2) Have a postcount per day restriction self-imposed
3) Do not attempt to make the person I am accusing laugh with jokes or references. Attempts at humor can be taken very wrongly if you're stressed out by being pushed.

El Barto

10-21-2017, 04:20

IIRC you once mentioned being affected by bipolar disorder, and how this influenced your play, and sometimes detracted from your enjoyment.
(!)

I'd completely forgotten that tiny little bit of information.

Also, Askthepizzaguy: it's 5 in the morning in Norway and you're still analysing a game which you yourself admit drew you in too deep? Sooh, take the laptop off the man's hands.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 04:27

I'd completely forgotten that tiny little bit of information.

Yeah. I was definitely on the manic side for several days.

Manic causes you to be impulsive, self-confident, outgoing, highly energetic, and compulsive. It also helps you focus and has other benefits, but it has its downsides. I prefer me when I'm manic to when I'm depressed but it certainly swung back that way a couple of times during the game, so I felt depressed too. That's when I'm feeling defeated, lethargic, uncertain and self-doubting. It's very different from feeling sad, although I experienced actual real genuine sadness when I lynched Slaan too.

Bipolar is tough. As Ben would say, the truth hurts.

Self-restrictions or don't sign up. Also long break for pizza, if not retirement.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 04:30

Both extremes make it very hard to sleep, and stress on top of it makes the lack of sleep and the extremes more profound, so the cycle is hard to break once I'm in it. Lack of sleep leads to stress, stress leads to lack of sleep, and all the other wonderful side effects of manic depression.

Askthepizzaguy

10-21-2017, 04:52

Also don't worry about me too much. To put your minds at ease, I'm not in any games, it's the weekend, I slept this afternoon, and Sooh's here.

I'm cool now, and just watching Lucahjin. (recommended to watch her play Ace Attorney games blind)

Very good youtube channel imo.

reinoe

10-21-2017, 05:07

Which reminds me. Sorry about "thanking" posts after death. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

Choxorn

10-21-2017, 08:52

Yes, believe it or not, whenever I'm playing during a term at uni I place a limit on how much time and attention I dedicate to mafia. This last year or so I've even played only the one game at a time.

I was a lot more active when I was younger, then I got to college, started actually having shit to do a lot of the time, started going outside and being social more often than I used to, and just generally didn't have the time for playing mafia or even posting at CFC and the Org nearly as often as I once did.

Pretty much the only reason I was super active and totally wrecking everyone at the start of this year was because I had literally nothing else to do.

In the past 3 games, on here and on MTGS, I've caught 3 wolves in each game. That's 9 wolves in 3 games. But I didn't win either of the first two games I am mentioning here, because one got away.

Hey man, it happens. I only got three of them, too, and decided to give one of my protections to the last one. I've had plenty of games like that.

Like the one where I, on two separate occasions, scumread a town over a mafia when they were the top two lynches (and they were my top two suspects), the scum got lynched, I proceeded to go hard after the townie anyway the next day and help get said townie lynched, then I got lynched myself because of how scummy that made me look.

Or the one where I correctly suspected all four werewolves and roleblocked them all at some point in the game, but never actually lynched any of them because they were just below at least one other top suspect (and I think one of them had some kind of crazy anti-lynch power).

Or the one where I was a neutral survivor and managed to eventually figure out that my scanning power could detect that one member of a mason group was an infiltrator- but I didn't realize that until after I died.

Sooh

10-21-2017, 14:00

(!)

I'd completely forgotten that tiny little bit of information.

Also, Askthepizzaguy: it's 5 in the morning in Norway and you're still analysing a game which you yourself admit drew you in too deep? Sooh, take the laptop off the man's hands.

That's not how it works lol.

Kagemusha

10-21-2017, 14:20

That's not how it works lol.

Then take the man off the laptop's grasp.:smug2:

Sooh

10-21-2017, 21:06

Then take the man off the laptop's grasp.:smug2:

Lol you sound like you had something in particular in mind.

El Barto

10-21-2017, 22:47

A dinner party…

Kagemusha

10-22-2017, 07:15

Lol you sound like you had something in particular in mind.

Who?Me? No.. im completely innocent as usual!:creep:

Sooh

10-22-2017, 11:40

Who?Me? No.. im completely innocent as usual!:creep:

You're Finnish. There's no way you're innocent.

Askthepizzaguy

10-22-2017, 15:10

Which reminds me. Sorry about "thanking" posts after death. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

You weren't spoiled so it's super okay. The only downside was that it was distracting and putting ideas in my head that didn't belong there. As soon as Sooh confirmed no one that was dead except the mafia were spoiled, I was able to move on with the game.

Still, I'd be way in favor of a no thanking posts during the game rule. I pushed for it at one point and people were like meh.

As we've seen on MU, dead chats tend to get spoiled as the game goes on, so when dead people are thanking posts, it can be read into, even involuntarily. Even if the post isn't alignment indicative, just thanking someone's post, gets people to think hey, he might be thanking a townie's post. Who is he gonna agree with the most? Probably the townie he's rooting for.

I'm glad it largely didn't impact the game. And even if people were spoiled, I'd consider the thanks to be innocent mistakes before suggesting it had a nefarious motive.

People don't realize that they might accidentally be giving stuff away. That idea is largely how I hunt wolves even, looking for the things that they don't realize give away their alignment or the alignment of others, but do it anyway.

It's a fairly effective way of reading the game. Not foolproof as we've seen, but... people often don't know what they're revealing when they do things. Spew happens.