Small Mafia Game Chess - Game Thread [Concluded] [Archive] - Page 9

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Fredwood

10-13-2017, 22:59

I believe the fourth scum absolutely has to push the narrative that one of GH or Zack are not scum for that EOD, and saying both might not be scum is the best. Also, since people aren't suspecting him hard after the Logic bus, he's the only wolf really capable of selling that narrative.

Right but Monty and myself were both selling that. In fact I was doubting my suss of GH. I think it goes back to the first point you made in the iso. The you're not doing much in your posts suss is not something you throw at a teammate who has some deep wolf cred.

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 22:59

Vote Bart

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 22:59

Vote Bart

Vote: El_Barto

just in case.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:00

Right but Monty and myself were both selling that. In fact I was doubting my suss of GH. I think it goes back to the first point you made in the iso. The you're not doing much in your posts suss is not something you throw at a teammate who has some deep wolf cred.

Yeah. That was the thing that was holding me back until the narrative post and the Logic bus.

I can see it both ways.

Sooh

10-13-2017, 23:01

That's a lynch!

El Barto (4): Montmorency, Slaan, Choxorn, Fredwood,

Csargo (2): Xiahou, Pizza,

Not voting (4): El Barto, Cuthillius, Dp101, Csargo

With 10 players there are 6 to hammer.

Sooh

10-13-2017, 23:05

Zzzzzz....

Wait... what? Are we done for today?

Then who?

Oh... Ok, here we go:

El Bartolomeo has left the tournament!

He was Garry Kasparov.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Garry_Kasparov%2C_New_York_City%2C_2003.jpg

You were born in the Soviet Union, but are currently reciding in Croatia. For about 20 years you were the world's number one chess player, until one little brat from Norway came and kicked you down off your throne. That's ok though, you had already retired when that happened. Your current rating is 2812.

You are a Vanilla Town.

N4 ends in:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1508018400.png

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:06

After the delay I really thought we got it...

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:08

After the delay I really thought we got it...

Yeah I was kind of anxiously awaiting the results and kept f5ing.

Otherwise sigh.

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:08

So a question before I start blindly speculating again... should we discuss what Chox should possible do now with his night actions/does anyone know what he possibly could do? Does that make sense to coordinate it? I mean mafia would see it but I think there are potential options where it doesnt matter if mafia knows or not... like maybe chox can gift a bomb to someone to use next night (not saying who he should give it to obviously)... that would be always +EV I think? Not sure if thats a viable option though... thoughts?

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:08

Right but Monty and myself were both selling that. In fact I was doubting my suss of GH. I think it goes back to the first point you made in the iso. The you're not doing much in your posts suss is not something you throw at a teammate who has some deep wolf cred.

Scum Freddo really has no reason to doubt any Csargo is scum theory. Csargo has to be in his lynch pile.

Just reaffirms my stance on him.

Anyway, if we have a doc they need to be on Choxorn. I've already stated who we shouldn't ever lynch and tried to case the remainders as much as I possibly can, given Xiahou and Cuth's posting patterns.

No lynches on me, freddo, dp101, choxorn. If we can't find it in the remaining then we deserve to lose.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:10

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:12

Scum Freddo really has no reason to doubt any Csargo is scum theory. Csargo has to be in his lynch pile.

Just reaffirms my stance on him.

Anyway, if we have a doc they need to be on Choxorn. I've already stated who we shouldn't ever lynch and tried to case the remainders as much as I possibly can, given Xiahou and Cuth's posting patterns.

No lynches on me, freddo, dp101, choxorn. If we can't find it in the remaining then we deserve to lose.

Lol well I was considering asking how experienced Csargo is as scum. I don't mean it as an insult or anything, I just honestly don't know.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:13

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:13

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:14

Lol well I was considering asking how experienced Csargo is as scum. I don't mean it as an insult or anything, I just honestly don't know.

He was in the very first mafia game on the site, I believe?

I could be wrong. And his name had changed a couple times since then.

But he's ancient.

Been scum probably as often as I have by now.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:16

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:17

Slaan looks both good and bad by iso. Looked good on first viewing, flip it and looks differently. I don't think I ever push him again though, I'll just hope I'm wrong. The tinfoil is strong.

Outside of that, Monty looks best for deep wolf (and best for being a townie, because amazing play either way) Csargo looks best for catchable wolf.

If you are afraid I'm going to be rude again don't be. I learned an important lesson about the mental state I shouldn't have when entering a volatile game such as this (and again: sorry for lashing out) and it won't happen again.

From my PoV rn the game is over anyway. I'd just vote down my PoE and not do much else unless new points come up... I won't do another reread.. maybe one more ISO if I'm really bored but doubt it... maybe if find myself in a F3 scenario with Monty and Fred but even then probably not cuz I'm fairly certain I'm the default lynch in this case ^^.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:18

If we value people based only on their total number of posts and not by their actual contributions/votes, then we'd never have caught Zack or GH.

And he was on both.

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:19

Alright.

Just 'ISO'd' Xia to see if I'm not totally crazy on the few post he has.. its 7. 7 posts so far. And being on Zack/GH for most of it (Csargo yesterday but couldnt bus another wolf at this point if he is the last one). I'm never letting this slot live.

Lol, I had this same reaction with Pizza's read on Auto who had even fewer posts then Xia and had an almost perfect voting record. I didn't listen to him then and I lost because of it. I'm not saying it couldn't but I just sort of trust Pizza at this point with those low post guys. I literally don't.

The good news bad news is, is if he's scum he won't win, buuuuuutttt....

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:20

Why not?

I don't see someone that isnt really playing nailing those two mafia. Zack was a jokevote from him for posting too much and then

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

I don't care for this either. :no:

(the don't care was in response to Csargos vote on Barto D1)... like really, top2 mafia candidates are GH and Zack??? This is either a stupid coincidence or bussing mafia.

Montmorency

10-13-2017, 23:20

If we value people based only on their total number of posts and not by their actual contributions/votes, then we'd never have caught Zack or GH.

And he was on both.

But Csargo is the super-deep super-power wolf?

Slaan looks both good and bad by iso. Looked good on first viewing, flip it and looks differently. I don't think I ever push him again though, I'll just hope I'm wrong. The tinfoil is strong.

Outside of that, Monty looks best for deep wolf (and best for being a townie, because amazing play either way) Csargo looks best for catchable wolf.

*sigh*

I'll explain why you don't push Csargo, but tonight is for interaction analysis.

What do you think of my theory derived from how Zack/GH dealt with Manasi and Csargo D1?

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:20

Montmorency

10-13-2017, 23:21

*Manasi and Barto

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:21

Amnesia is one hell of a drug :D

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:27

I think hard bussing is literally the only strategy Xiahou could ever employ as mafia if he intends to have any chance. If he doesnt have a good record he'll die somewhere along the way since he can't get cleared in any other way on account of not posting. If he busses alot he either spew his mates clear if he dies first or gets super credit and maybe chills it out till the end. It's not a great strategy mind you, but the only one someone posting only 7 times in over 8 days could employ. I imagine even the mafia told him in mafia chat after he told them he is not gonna post much to just bus them or smth... I would.

I mean maybe he was just incredibly lucky (or a master at this game but I feel a master at this game would play a bit more ^^) but I won't ever take this chance.

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:28

But Csargo is the super-deep super-power wolf?

*sigh*

I'll explain why you don't push Csargo, but tonight is for interaction analysis.

What do you think of my theory derived from how Zack/GH dealt with Manasi and Csargo D1?

I think the problem you have is the spew masters both pushed multiple people, both cleared multiple people and both ignored multiple people and both split multiple people.

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:31

Ngl though, the one thing bothering me from my 4 (well now 3) PoE is that its literally the ppl with seemingly least WIM/least posts... which is terrible but I'm always a sucker for this.. at least until I get a strong read on one of the more active ppl.

In the end it's probably also a reinforcing kinda thing.. I hate loosing to ppl that dont participate much but if I loose here to Monty I'd be like... damn but alright, he played and I didnt catch him. If I loose to Xiahou it's have lost to someone that hasnt really played and gave me almost no chance to catch him....

Slaan

10-13-2017, 23:31

Anyway, I'm done for today :). See you around

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:34

Montmorency

10-13-2017, 23:36

I think the problem you have is the spew masters both pushed multiple people, both cleared multiple people and both ignored multiple people and both split multiple people.

Of course, but there could be narrow patterns. I'm doing pretty much every player against the Mafia, and I'll package the results so it's easy for people to check or improve upon my work.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:37

If you are afraid I'm going to be rude again don't be. I learned an important lesson about the mental state I shouldn't have when entering a volatile game such as this (and again: sorry for lashing out) and it won't happen again.

From my PoV rn the game is over anyway. I'd just vote down my PoE and not do much else unless new points come up... I won't do another reread.. maybe one more ISO if I'm really bored but doubt it... maybe if find myself in a F3 scenario with Monty and Fred but even then probably not cuz I'm fairly certain I'm the default lynch in this case ^^.
I'm not worried about that. From what I've seen except for that one post, you're ordinarily a great guy.

Maybe you have similar people to me on your home site. I come on really strong and I throw everything I can find at you suddenly to see if I cannot rattle your cage. If you don't, it can be jarring.

Whenever I push someone, if I have a moderately higher than random scum read on them, I look for everything I possibly can find that could be in any way incriminating. Because it tends to work, and whether I'm right or wrong it generally results in more votes on the suspect.

If I'm town, and I am the one who gets to choose who dies, town has a better chance of winning. This is true for most townies, I feel. If it's not me, there's a chance it could be a scum controlling the narrative. If I'm scum, and I am the one who gets to choose who dies, town has far smaller chances for obvious reasons. The expected value of my team goes way up if I'm getting what I want. Expressing confidence, both real and bluffing, helps convince the person I'm pushing in that moment that they're completely doomed and completely caught. I tend to swing in confidence on people. And I don't tend to push that hard on someone I'm not confident on, but there's a bit of theatrics involved.

When I pushed Logic for example, I thought his opening was just kind of being there. I feel like he can get nervous early, so I pushed him. I really bit down when I saw his passive aggression posts and threw everything I could into convincing people he's scum.

I felt like one of Zack or GH could be scum, it was legitimately surprising to see it was both. I was gonna vote Zack on D2, but when votes landed on GH I just went with it because I felt it could be either/or. Don't divide the town, choose one.

Then his reaction to being pushed was really bad. It was both bluffy and stally. That's when I went into kitchen sink mode.

After that, the unusually strong buddying and defending between him and Zack and Zack's own drop in stock since early day one meant he was always suspicious and in the POE for me, and at this point, it was looking like a total collapse. Zack needed to be removed regardless his alignment, or we'd never move past him except by wasting a day phase. And, I don't know if I can get him lynched. In truth, what pushed me over the edge on shooting Zack over Manasi is that she was consensus. I can get Manasi lynched. I can even get both if I shoot Zack. I had Manasi as slightly scummier than Zack and almost switched off, but Manasi was gettable. Either lolcatting or not caring enough to put up a defense.

With you, I'm guarding against someone who plays a lot like me. Your posts all have a very familiar (to me) feeling to them. Controlled and comfortable. No matter what is happening or the situation. My wager is that you actually have fun as scum with your back against the wall. If you're scum here, you see this as the challenge of a lifetime, and there's no way you'd not even be having fun here. If you're like me, nothing says fun like long odds.

But if you're like me then I can see strategy, diplomacy, and potential layers for gambits. So I pushed on that and looked for anything that matches my own scum meta. If I'm in your shoes what do I do?

If it sounds not like you at all, it's because everything I said was exactly what I would have done. And it would have worked, too.

If that's you as scum, then it can very much feel like you've been caught dead to rights. If your whole scheme is unraveling before your eyes, then it can feel like it's unlikely to continue working. But if you're town it can also cause a negative reaction and make you think I'm on drugs.

If parts of the case are just not you at all, then I can understand your reaction. My scum suit might not fit your frame and I was coming on very strong.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:40

Lol, I had this same reaction with Pizza's read on Auto who had even fewer posts then Xia and had an almost perfect voting record. I didn't listen to him then and I lost because of it. I'm not saying it couldn't but I just sort of trust Pizza at this point with those low post guys. I literally don't.

The good news bad news is, is if he's scum he won't win, buuuuuutttt....

Auto had a perfect record when I made the read. I think he had 1 post and 1 vote, was on novice iirc? He was on someone I thought was super scummy and was on him all day. And he doesn't make joke votes, or when he does, he doesn't move them. Just super bad for him to do against a partner since moving off for him would be highly unusual.

One day he'll do that and blow me away though. I like being beaten by my own analysis game.

Play against the analysis.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:45

My guess is that he's not an incredibly active as either scum or Town and profile says he's been around since 2010, it may be just one of those things. At this point I literally don't know where I'm at with the remainder of votable players.

I don't know.

I haven't looked at the last game Xiahou played. My memory on this one is a little shaky. I can't remember if this is unusual for him.

I think he was in Pirate Ship. I'll have to check.

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:46

Auto had a perfect record when I made the read. I think he had 1 post and 1 vote, was on novice iirc? He was on someone I thought was super scummy and was on him all day. And he doesn't make joke votes, or when he does, he doesn't move them. Just super bad for him to do against a partner since moving off for him would be highly unusual.

One day he'll do that and blow me away though. I like being beaten by my own analysis game.

Play against the analysis.

Is Xia similar WRT to Auto? At least your analysis game or w/e you want to call it?

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:49

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?150856-Pirate-Ship-Mafia-III-Concluded

Xiahou 31 posts all game, was town iirc

Sporadic activity at first.

Had a very active 1 day, was the day he got lynched.

He can go days without activity and post 1 time or 2 times per day as town based off of one game meta.

I think this is likely to be the case if I keep digging.

I have played a lot of games, I do not ever remember being in a game where Xiahou's presence made an impact on my swiss cheese like memory.

Not that he's a bad player or a bad guy, it's just that I'd remember a high poster more, I think. Even if it was back in the day.

I remember the top posters from 5 years ago. Xiahou I don't think was ever one.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:51

Is Xia similar WRT to Auto? At least your analysis game or w/e you want to call it?

He's been mostly absent from the gameroom for years and years.

While I have an impression, and that impression is no strong impression, which means he wasn't likely a big poster anytime when I played a lot, I can't reliably say if Xiahou was ever a big talker in the couple of years before my time.

Askthepizzaguy

10-13-2017, 23:51

Had a very active 1 day, was the day he got lynched.

rephrase: He was very active on ONE of the days. He was much less active on all the rest.

Fredwood

10-13-2017, 23:59

Csargo

10-14-2017, 00:02

Bingo.

This is much more condemning.

I'd lynch Csargo over this post for sure.

This is the narrative that pretty much HAD to be spoken by the final scum.

I posted the reality of the situation, it still doesn't make sense to me tbh. Why would I do this as scum?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:03

"Ah, right," Double A said. "Nay, not on Night or Day 3 at any rate. Xiahou and Ice were both loyal crewmen. Let's hope we have more luck today. Get votin, ye bloomin' bags o' barracuda bait!"

Xiahou confirmed town in the Pirate game.

So, not unusual for him to have a slow opening several days. Might only pick up in activity if you push him, in fact. Otherwise he might just be content to make a pot shot guess here and there until all the scums are dead.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:05

So a question to Slaan, Pizza or whomever. Taking out voting record and spew which concerns you more in the current game state (one where we caught 3 scum in the first 2 days):

7 posts total

or

3 posts since Day 1?

I get where you're coming from, I really do, but several people have done very little since the early game scums got caught.

It cannot be alignment indicative, in fact if it were an indicator, it would indicate the other way. Town.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:05

Doesn't mean he is town, it just means that's not a tell, but an exception if he were scum.

I can believe in exceptions. I just don't base a lynching case off of one.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:06

This is really why I can't push Xiahou. I have to see it, and I cannot ever see it based on the posts so far.

Until the POE is resolved I wouldn't push Xia.

Make him your final lynch. Mislynch maybe.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:08

I posted the reality of the situation, it still doesn't make sense to me tbh. Why would I do this as scum?

Do what?

I don't know what you're referring to, if it's in the post or your previous sentence. Clarify?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:11

Sorting by post count, Xiahou was in the massive Capo 2 game.

He had posts. 1 post and vote per day. Looking for his alignment.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:12

Sorting by post count, Xiahou was in the massive Capo 2 game.

He had 4 posts. 1 post and vote per day. Looking for his alignment.

Num lock.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 00:13

I get where you're coming from, I really do, but several people have done very little since the early game scums got caught.

It cannot be alignment indicative, in fact if it were an indicator, it would indicate the other way. Town.

No my general point is that if we're going down the Xia rabbit hole then it's only fair if we include Cuth for post count purposes. had 28 day one, has had 3 since. I know my WIM would be destroyed if all my teammates were killed. He also presented the idea that GH and Zack probably weren't teammates, or at least he didn't think Zack was scum, but said it after the fact. His last post day one was a passive aggressive jab at the thread for "sheeping" pizza, which is meh.

I'm not really arguing for the Cuth lynch, but I'm saying whenever we consider Xiah, we have to consider Cuth as well to stay consistent. If that day is today I'm more inclined to think a guy who has consistently low posted is a lot less suspicious then someone who has basically stopped posting after having a decent post count to start (I say this cus we had similar day 1 post counts lol). I know there's a a spew case in his favor, but scum was scrambling day 1, I don't know how likely logic is to save a teammate with spew in that case, or if it means Cuth is town.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:15

“As to our post-mortem results, we’ve come up with this information. Fahad I, Killfr3nzy, Sapi, and Xiahou were all clearly townies with no information linking them to the mobs or to criminal activity in general.”

Xiahou confirmed townie in Capo 2.

I'm gonna keep looking until I find a scum game of his.

If this is his town pattern, and it looks like it is, he's nailed it completely if he's scum.

I feel like if he's scum he should be posting more than this as a gut feeling. I'm prepared to be wrong though, still digging.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:15

No my general point is that if we're going down the Xia rabbit hole then it's only fair if we include Cuth for post count purposes. had 28 day one, has had 3 since. I know my WIM would be destroyed if all my teammates were killed. He also presented the idea that GH and Zack probably weren't teammates, or at least he didn't think Zack was scum, but said it after the fact. His last post day one was a passive aggressive jab at the thread for "sheeping" pizza, which is meh.

I'm not really arguing for the Cuth lynch, but I'm saying whenever we consider Xiah, we have to consider Cuth as well to stay consistent. If that day is today I'm more inclined to think a guy who has consistently low posted is a lot less suspicious then someone who has basically stopped posting after having a decent post count to start (I say this cus we had similar day 1 post counts lol). I know there's a a spew case in his favor, but scum was scrambling day 1, I don't know how likely logic is to save a teammate with spew in that case, or if it means Cuth is town.

If he's scum, this is why.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 00:18

Do what?

I don't know what you're referring to, if it's in the post or your previous sentence. Clarify?

I was referring to the post you quoted.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:20

In any case, this is why I'm so protective of natural low-posters.

All I do all day is run my big fat mouth and push and prod and poke and influence.

The low posters only have so much impact on the game, and the BEST way they can impact the game is just by voting correctly.

It also is rare to see the lowest posting scum voting for the biggest influencers.

I do NOT believe players have more or less value than one another just because they post more. If you're voting, you're playing.

I use my big mouth to speak out in defense of low posters who I don't think are null, or who are bussing wolves.

If they're alive come endgame then maybe. They don't have any town points except the bussing.

But that's the point, that's not ever going to be enough and Xiahou has to know that.

Instead, he's ice cold. Not flinching. Same strategy.

And it's his townie meta. I wouldn't be me if I didn't speak out against his lynch based on this record.

If it's wrong, this is my crippling achilles' heel. I grew up on org mafia and although I've been annoyed at times by the low posting, and especially if they don't vote and let me down that way, I've been forced to read them over the years. I feel like it's worth trying to explain how they're town.

Even if it's wrong, that idea needs to have its day, and Xiahou ain't ever going to be the one who argues it.

Insight into Pizza's brain. Monty is keeping close notes about my meta, well here is a big clue.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 00:31

If he's scum, this is why.

Just to make sure, I'm talking about Cuth in the bolded, not Xia.

I'm generally in the place that I'm not really worried about losing to either of them if they're scum. If forced, based solely on the drop off of posts to think Cuth is inherently more suspicious then Xiah.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:32

I mean that Zack/GH cfd is the mafia equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot if they're scum, it had a very small probability of being successful. Coupled with the fact they chose Dp101 as their target probably lowered their probability of success. Plus the amount of votes they would have had to gather to top Logic's total makes it an almost impossible feat. They're both definitely capable of defending themselves in the aftermath, but I don't think it's likely they're scum together, and even one being scum seems unlikely to me. Even if they were successful they would have bought Logic a night phase, don't think it's worth it for that.

Blue- Why you would say this, is because there needs to be a logical argument why they wouldn't do that if they're both scum, that is not just based on reading them town. Something I do if I'm scum or null reading my own buddies, is I put the thought out there that disconnects them. I don't have to town read them to defend them. I can put out the logic as to why they're not scum together without committing to a town read. You've enough experience to know this is something scums can do as well.

Orange- more logic suggesting the strategy is self-defeating. Again, don't have to town read either one to make this argument, and it dissuades people from pushing there.

Green- They don't need to get a lynch, just look unaware a scum is about to flip, and by your own admission in orange, that shouldn't have even been their actual motive. We've all pretty much decided they were betting the farm that their cfd antics would be seen as distancing themselves from the eventual scum flip. Their posts around that time indicate so, they simply bet on acting shocked that crazy pizza was actually right on his total non-case on some random low poster. That was the play. So you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. They can't be scum because it doesn't make sense as a strategy (blue/orange), but they also can't be scum because it is obviously not that strategy (green).

That's the biggest issue.

red- Well you're suggesting they're both town. I don't think you can really believe that. Some suspicion has to go their way if you're towning, Csargo. I think. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like you've got better instincts than that. And logic, when you present any.

Teal- Again, you're arguing that it can't make sense as a strategy to save Logic which means that they shouldn't be scum here. This is how you argue in their defense without giving them a town read.

It's defensible, and it needed to be argued to dissuade the town from killing them. Even when they flip, if they flip, it doesn't immediately go back to you, because your reasoning is neutral and reasonable, you were not suggesting they were town, just that they don't make sense.

Agreed, doesn't make sense. But it's what happened. And you were telling us that you did not think it was possible. That's a good way of defending a partner so you can vote elsewhere. You're dissuading people by example rather than trying to change minds.

I can see all of this coming out of Scum Csargo's brain, easily.

Doesn't mean you're scum, but it puts serious doubts about a town read I had on you.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:34

Just to make sure, I'm talking about Cuth in the bolded, not Xia

Me too

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 00:39

So that has helped with my remainder I guess.

So that just leaves Slaan and Cuth I guess, I legit don't know what to do with Csargo.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:44

Right but Monty and myself were both selling that. In fact I was doubting my suss of GH. I think it goes back to the first point you made in the iso. The you're not doing much in your posts suss is not something you throw at a teammate who has some deep wolf cred.

Yes, the tell isn't generic here though.

The final scum had to be doing this in my opinion. It's the only plan that wins.

Just because townies were doing it too, doesn't mean that logic isn't valid.

It isn't "anyone who is doing this is scum"

It's "someone who is doing this is scum".

Only a few folks were. And you and Monty both look a lot townier to me from the rest of your work.

See the process?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:45

So that has helped with my remainder I guess.

So that just leaves Slaan and Cuth I guess, I legit don't know what to do with Csargo.

Lynch him before Cuth.

Then Cuth maybe.

El Barto

10-14-2017, 00:46

After you die you may post one BAH post which does not include any clues.

one little brat from Snoreway
Damned Snorwegians.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:47

I don't think I'll be okay with pushing Xiahou personally at any point.

My POE is putting him into the town side.

Still looking for a scum game of his.

If he's got one that matches this game, all bets are off.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:50

After a kill, we're at final 8, which gives us 3 lynches.

Csargo/Cuth/Slaan/Monty

In approximately that order. Shame I have 4.

If one dies and is town, lynch the rest.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 00:51

Yes, the tell isn't generic here though.

The final scum had to be doing this in my opinion. It's the only plan that wins.

Just because townies were doing it too, doesn't mean that logic isn't valid.

It isn't "anyone who is doing this is scum"

It's "someone who is doing this is scum".

Only a few folks were. And you and Monty both look a lot townier to me from the rest of your work.

See the process?

Yeah, I guess. I realize every-time I say something to argue with you that it should Csargo saying it so I'll just let you work lol.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:53

Pizza
choxo
dp101
Fredwood
Xiahou
-------------------
Monty
Slaan
Cuth
Csargo

Possibly final answer.

3 shots into that bottom 4 means we should still win, but lol us if we can't.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:55

I feel like the bottom 4 all did their best to argue against the Logic lynch (and/or) tried to get us off of suspecting both Zack and GH or one of each.

As such those are generically the correct suspects.

Lynch them in order of least to most townie in your own mind.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 00:57

My suggestion to the bottom 4 is to look into why the others in that pile are not the scums we're looking for, and also, why they are.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 01:06

Blue- Why you would say this, is because there needs to be a logical argument why they wouldn't do that if they're both scum, that is not just based on reading them town. Something I do if I'm scum or null reading my own buddies, is I put the thought out there that disconnects them. I don't have to town read them to defend them. I can put out the logic as to why they're not scum together without committing to a town read. You've enough experience to know this is something scums can do as well.

Orange- more logic suggesting the strategy is self-defeating. Again, don't have to town read either one to make this argument, and it dissuades people from pushing there.

Green- They don't need to get a lynch, just look unaware a scum is about to flip, and by your own admission in orange, that shouldn't have even been their actual motive. We've all pretty much decided they were betting the farm that their cfd antics would be seen as distancing themselves from the eventual scum flip. Their posts around that time indicate so, they simply bet on acting shocked that crazy pizza was actually right on his total non-case on some random low poster. That was the play. So you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. They can't be scum because it doesn't make sense as a strategy (blue/orange), but they also can't be scum because it is obviously not that strategy (green).

That's the biggest issue.

red- Well you're suggesting they're both town. I don't think you can really believe that. Some suspicion has to go their way if you're towning, Csargo. I think. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like you've got better instincts than that. And logic, when you present any.

Teal- Again, you're arguing that it can't make sense as a strategy to save Logic which means that they shouldn't be scum here. This is how you argue in their defense without giving them a town read.

It's defensible, and it needed to be argued to dissuade the town from killing them. Even when they flip, if they flip, it doesn't immediately go back to you, because your reasoning is neutral and reasonable, you were not suggesting they were town, just that they don't make sense.

Agreed, doesn't make sense. But it's what happened. And you were telling us that you did not think it was possible. That's a good way of defending a partner so you can vote elsewhere. You're dissuading people by example rather than trying to change minds.

I can see all of this coming out of Scum Csargo's brain, easily.

Doesn't mean you're scum, but it puts serious doubts about a town read I had on you.

Have you noticed a pattern to most of my arguments this game Pizza?

Do you disagree with the sentiment behind the argument? I wasn't trying to dissuade anyone, I was trying to understand the strategy behind it. I still don't get it, such a bizarre thing. It was meant as an objective look at their actions, since I wasn't a fan of either at that point, it probably failed to be that.

I don't blame you for thinking I'm scum, I haven't done a great job this game of making sound arguments. If I was scum I never would have tried to give a reason for voting Zack D1, I would have just moved on. I wouldn't have voted Logic over Choxorn in that situation D1.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 01:09

Have you noticed a pattern to most of my arguments this game Pizza?

Do you disagree with the sentiment behind the argument? I wasn't trying to dissuade anyone, I was trying to understand the strategy behind it. I still don't get it, such a bizarre thing. It was meant as an objective look at their actions, since I wasn't a fan of either at that point, it probably failed to be that.

I don't blame you for thinking I'm scum, I haven't done a great job this game of making sound arguments. If I was scum I never would have tried to give a reason for voting Zack D1, I would have just moved on. I wouldn't have voted Logic over Choxorn in that situation D1.

That is the towniest thing in your favor and I did see it.

So in Cuth/Monty/Slaan, are those the correct suspects?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 01:10

I didn't notice a pattern as I wasn't looking for such, what was the pattern?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 01:20

Found another Xiahou game.

Mafia VII Shadows of the Mafia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?90534-Mafia-VII-Shadows-of-the-Mafia-Concluded&p=1684662&viewfull=1#post1684662), Xia had 29 posts.

He was town. You could talk after death in that game. The pattern is between 1 and 3 posts per day on average, with frequent gaps where he doesn't post at all that day.

Need to check the old database and see if he was ever even scum once.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 01:23

Stickied at the top of the forum:

link (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?135992-Gameroom-Rules-and-Reference-READ-THIS-BEFORE-PLAYING)

Gameroom Statistics (link (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?130384-Gameroom-statistics-revisited)) - Contains statistics on games and mafia players. Awesome job, Romanic! (note: not updated since 2011)

Xiahou
Mafia: 3 games (1 win, 2 losses, 0 draw, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 1 time

As of 2011 (database is OOOOOLD and hasn't been updated)

I can keep looking. What else am I gonna do tonight.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 01:26

Stickied at the top of the forum:

link (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?135992-Gameroom-Rules-and-Reference-READ-THIS-BEFORE-PLAYING)

Xiahou
Mafia: 3 games (1 win, 2 losses, 0 draw, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 1 time

As of 2011 (database is OOOOOLD and hasn't been updated)

I can keep looking. What else am I gonna do tonight.

Lol at your win loss record as scum.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 01:40

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 01:42

Lol at your win loss record as scum.

It is still like 80 percent not counting turbos, iirc.

But the list of games as scum is probably 4 times that amount by now.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 01:56

Lol you posted in the wrong thread.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:00

LOL wrong thread.

Anyway, he's a bit more talkative in VII, but, only here and there.

Instead, I'm finding this, like in Pirate ship.

Vote: Visorslash
He's french. :yes:
1. He's been behaving suspiciously all game.
2. He's voted for me. I know I am not french, therefore my suspicions against him are raised even further.

Can anyone give me a compelling reason why he shouldn't be lynched?

This post in Pirate Ship III is basically Xiahou's town meta.

Says a reason or asks why it's not wrong, reasoning is super straightforward, or simply a declaration they're scum. They vote, and generally, he does not unvote. It's rare that he even moves a vote. When he does, it's because the discussion and evidence has pushed him that way. Otherwise he seems to prefer to vote whoever he thinks is scummy once a round, whether they're being voted already or not.

This, plus a few or a couple examples each game where he strings together a few sentences. Usually a couple separate topics involved, so he's only on any one topic for a sentence or two. But then he returns to one-liners, which are sporadic.

His scum meta was much denser, and involved more shading and persuasion attempts and fewer one liners. And there's a clear difference in intent. There are clear attempts to control the outcome of the game, from his vantage point of not saying a whole lot, by changing minds and making arguments to push townies in a direction.

In other words, my guess is, Xiahou!scum would have repeated such an attempt here, and said things to push the game in any direction. To persuade the rest of us where to go.

Instead, he's content to come out of the shadows like a ninja, attack someone, and slip back in.

And that's what he does as town. He's not about that controlling the discussion life.

Xiahou is a ninja assassin as town, and his scum game involves visible intent to change course.

I believe he'd change course on Zack or GH or not target them in the first place.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:01

Lol you posted in the wrong thread.

Yep.

GH can delete postgame and unbump that old thread. I added to it but didn't change the content much except by addition.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:06

Vote: Csargo
Someone tell me why I'm wrong. :stare:

Compare that post from infinity ago Xiahou!Town to this post.

Someone tell Xiahou why he's wrong.

I mean, he could be going back to his old townie games and like, deliberately matching his own structure and pacing and meta, but the odds tell me he's just a gosh danged townie this game.

If that's wrong, well played, Cool Hand Xiahuke.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:08

Can we not lynch Xiahou now?

I carry two candles.

My candle for him will never be extinguished, even if my own is.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:31

Sheesh.... 25 pages already???

Vote: zack
For spamming out over 150 posts. :stare:

ATPG is a close second... but you can only vote for one.

Opening post this game.

Keep in mind, Zack had gotten votes on D1. He had been voted more than once and been shaded by a couple of people before this vote.

But he was also not lock scum or a lost cause nor did he have a big wagon at the time. In fact reinoe had unvoted him.

This is just a bizarre place to put a vote if Xiahou is scum. Timing-wise, plus the fact that he's just not someone who unvotes.

This was a voting Zack to death vote, when Zack was going super hard.

Xiahou lock town based off of this one post alone, and I'm serious about that lock. Look at the context.

Look at his meta and who he is. Look at who Zack is. That's not someone you bus d1.

It goes against every single mafia principle.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:33

Look at the reasons behind that vote.

Keep in mind who he is and how many posts he tends to deal with.

Basically, this was his entire reason to lynch Zack, because he wouldn't shush his mouth.

If it were me, I'd have gotten the vote instead. I almost did but Zack came into this game with a truckload of WIM that got him town reads.

It's as simple as that.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:37

The final scum made a play in one of their posts, or several, to get the lynch off of Logic or off of Zack or off of GH.

And they are not currently in my town pile, because those in my town pile have really earned it and there's zero reason to suspect them.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:44

Cuth is not really affecting the outcome of the game or pushing things very much in any direction either.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:52

ISO of Cuth

With others who mention him once he starts posting.

i have no hot takes to drop

feel like getting >twice as much sleep as i did last night and coming back to this thread is probably the best course of action

i did think dp's been a bit weird and the reaction test was really... stiff and ???

around the time reinoe had pushed on dp, and dp got upset.

also

logic i think i've always assumed you've played chess because y'know

Logic has/had a chess themed avatar at one point on his home forum.

not much of a push

i think the push itself is p lazy

but yeah someone voted you and you ~steppedish out of thread?

Possibly thinking dp got rattled by pressure.

fair enough

why do you think you got particularly upset over that in particular in particular in particular?

Trying to understand that reaction.

Not a fan of cuth in this page

He says nothing except trying to imply dp is being wolfy without actually saying it

But he should know this isn't wolfy at all for him

I'll stop here before someone complains more about me posting too much, unless someone responds

All on page 5 at 80ppp.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:54

Alright and I'm done catching up, yay. Overall impressions so far:

1. GH: Seems ok solvey but I know he can fake that as scum so he's just null in my book. Imo he has to be judged by his success in game and not by how towny he seems from posts alone.
2. Csargo: Didnt really like most of what he wrote, an early weird read that he immediatly backpaddled on.. wouldnt mind a lynch here today
3. dp101: Very towny from tone and AtE. From the comments I saw about him here he doesnt seem to be considered as the greatest player so him faking his frustration seems very unlikely
4. Pizza: ... I hope he stops with the rpg stuff or I'd consider vigging him if I had access to a vig.
5. Fredwood: Seems alright so far, not many posts but focused on solving the game.
6. El Barto: no poster
7. Montmorency: ... I'd call him toneally scummish atm.. there were alot of posts that feel off a bit. #119 akwardly trying to insert himself in our nonsense videogame discussion, his push on the 'reaction test' thingy (which I don't understand but I also don't care much), #250 is weird...
8. Zack: Actually don't have anything AI on him despite his many posts. The more memorable stuff was his reactions to being townread but thats just NAI in my book (since I sometimes do the same as both town and scum)
9. Cuthillius: weak pop in
10. Manasi: Manasi seemingly being solvey gives me the creeps. Also weird point made on my, how was I uncomfortable? Cautions sure being mostly w/ new folk but I didnt feel uncomfortable. Maybe a bit drunk but that's neither here nor there
11. Slaan: lock goat
12. Reinoe: The more I think about the more null she is. I don't think it very likely that her antagonizing attitude is wolfy but then again I don't see why not... given that its an alt an all. Maybe someone wants to try out a new strategy.
13. Choxorn: Who?
14. Winston Hughes: Almost same as Zack though I don't recall anything he said in regards to the game.
15. Logic: Didnt start solving really so far, a slight post on Kagemusha, a townread on me (which makes him scum ;))... I expect more!
16. Xiahou: ...
17. Kagemusha: Well his vote on me and then complaining that noone commented on it felt off... curious where he goes from here.

Where this leaves me:
dp101
Fred
GH, Zack, Winston
Csargo, Montmorency

Slaan mentions his opening as weak.

Gaaah, I couldn't help myself and was sneaking peeks at the thread on my phone. Found somewhere to sit down and pull out my laptop because I really want to say something.

re: why dp is town

(snip)

Cuth too, blergh. This is my problem with d1, I always think way too many people are being suspicious. For now, DP, Fred, and Slaan are the only people I feel good about saying they're above null. Few people are null or slightly above or below it, maybe. Rest are in the poo pile.

@GeneralHankerchief (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16104), did you answer the above question?

Also, is there an intentional difference between how you play on here and off-site, MU specifically? You seem more ... enthusiastic there.
Zack shades Cuth again.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:55

(snip)

Of the two Dp pushers I talked about earlier, I like Reinoe more than Cuth because Reinoe's explanations are decent and more well thought out than Cuth's.

I'm a little bit wary of Slaan right now because he's acting a bit different than in other games I've played with him in/read of his, but I think it can be chalked up to adjusting to a new environment for now.

I think Fred could be a bit better so far.

Vote: Cuth

Gh also pushes Cuth.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 02:57

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_caU5EZcrn7w/TKAhQ32GPsI/AAAAAAAAAL4/DJ462F926bk/s1600/aladdin_do_you_trust_me.jpg

Trying to influence the outcome, to cause a lynch Cuth on day one.

So far this looks outstanding for Cuth.

Is there an echo in here? I am pretty sure I said this the last time I looked at Cuth, which is how he got into my town.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 02:59

Ok, so after that very helpful meta-analysis, I’m willing to clear Xiahou for the foreseeable future. From my POV, at this point I’d go Csargo->Cuth->Slaan.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:01

So be it. Unvote and Vote: Cuthillius

Was town.

Here for a bit. Zack and GH are even more solidly town. I agree that Cuth’s popin was mediocre but I’m not sure that that’s damming, from the sounds of his posts it seems like he wants to prioritise sleep over more mafia. Csargo is underwhelming to an extreme degree this game and I can’t tell why. I do not understand Kage, overall not comfortable really making a read on him.

Dp is not helping Cuth get lynched.

Now that ive used this brave new ISO method for the first time to Cuth. He is smelling like rotten scum to me. Pushing, but not quite pushing, trying to connect a bit, making excuses..Best bet for scum so far.

Kage got manipulated, obviously.

This post was linked in choxorn's 517, do I have this out of order? I might have missed Logic's post.

I haven't played chess since about the time that avatar was made. So, a decade or so? I've never considered myself very good. I'm capable of beating my parents and

i did think dp's been a bit weird and the reaction test was really... stiff and ???

Hmm. Why do you get a feeling that no one else seems to?

Logic's 10-minute take:
DP is town. DP is not teamed with Pizza, or Zack.

Csargo and Pizza are not teamed. One could be a wolf, but I don't think both.

Pizza feels really weird from normal. I can usually understand him a little, but here, he feels like he is playing 9 moves ahead to my 4. Not sure if he's on my team or not. I stand by my "seat of the pants" statement from earlier.

Cuth jumps in with some slight shade at DP. Is he suspicious of DP?

Kage shows up with what looks like a lazy vote on Slaan. Possibly a joke, but I think there's a more than reasonable chance that Kage is mafia.

Reinoe is the current target of DP's ire, and he is voting for me, (full disclosure, that that vote isn't being counted because it isn't bolded)

His vote on me looks like it stems only from Pizza's accusation. Not sure if sheeping, or he has other reasons for voting for me.

[b]Vote: Kagemusha[b/]

Logic also pushed against Cuth.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:02

On day one every dead scum tried to get Cuth lynched.

And I mean tried, like super hard to influence the outcome that way.

They didn't just suggest that Cuth was scummy. They voted there and also tried to influence people into thinking so.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:04

Computer says all zeroes on this. No idea, but I think this might be a difficult draw. Not a big fan but I don't have a good refutation. I'll see how it goes.

Better would be GH captures Logic on g8, winning a queen.

This is me suggesting we don't lynch Cuth but lynch Logic instead.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 03:06

This is me suggesting we don't lynch Cuth but lynch Logic instead.

Why bring this up? Just because you are looking for every post that relates to someone doesn’t mean that you have to post the semi-irrelevant ones, and I don’t see how this post helps us determine his alignment.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:10

I didn't say anything about number of posts

and I am not exactly handing out glowing praise to chox and cuth

don't like this response

responding to Barto, Zack says this.

Again shading Cuth.

Srsly?

Also, I'm outposting choxorn, Cuthillius and Fredwood by now, but you ain't bitchin' bout them, boy.
Fredwood came in and gave a good long post w/ reads. You came in and delivered nothing so far... and in case you havent noticed Cuth is getting partly scumread for his pop in as well.

The problem is that you are in the thread right now and it seems like you don't want to play.
Slaan shading Barto, mentions Cuth as being scumread. I think by Slaan, if I'm getting the context right. Though he didn't put Cuth in his list o scums earlier, just in the body.

I don't feel any urgency to lynch right now, since half the day is ahead and a number of nulls like Choxorn, Cuth, Barto, and Xiahou remain to sort out. The case against Logic is relatively good for D1, and we need to see him respond against all those nulls. Right now I'm fine continuing to vote you.

Re Manasi: I mean that she would be putting out observations or prods toward her teammates, and she doesn't seem to be observing or prodding much of anyone so far, other than joking with you as usual.

Re: Barto, yes, and he never broke out of it and got lynched. So? That took 2 or 3 days to fill out.

Monty has Cuth as Null, but doesn't push.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:11

Why bring this up? Just because you are looking for every post that relates to someone doesn’t mean that you have to post the semi-irrelevant ones, and I don’t see how this post helps us determine his alignment.

It gives a little context. There was pushback to Cuth being lynched on Day 1, that context helps read the other posts.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:16

Big post by Cuth responding to Zack's huge post.

Gaaah, I couldn't help myself and was sneaking peeks at the thread on my phone. Found somewhere to sit down and pull out my laptop because I really want to say something.

re: why dp is town

No, it's not because "he's awkward as town and is being awkward here." I don't think that's necessarily true, anyways, but that's another discussion.

I recently hosted a game, a week or two ago, where DP was a wolf. I read his posts in the game, I read his posts in wolfchat. There are two specific things that I like from DP so far, and one vague thing.

1. He knows that I noticed how much he started randomly commenting on things as "spicy" in that game, and thought it was something people in the game should have been noticing in the game as being off. So, DP rands wolf here, and probably keeps that in mind as something to avoid, especially around me. But he did the opposite -- he specifically said it in a few times, tried to bring my attention to it, and wanted to gauge my reaction. That's a town move.

2. Reinoe called him out. Many wolves feel uncomfortable standing their ground and going toe to toe with someone in the thread, and so fall into the trap of being overly conciliatory in an awkward way. As mafia, I'd expect DP to respond to this in some form of "sorry I'm busy with school, I'll try to be better" or whatever. Instead, he basically told Reinoe: eff you, piss off.

3. The vague one. He just, seems town to me.

---

Normally, this wouldn't elicit quite the rustle brush in me as it has here. But, the last time I thought town DP was being town DP and didn't speak loud enough against it, he was mislynched d1 and I was fairly pissed about it. Don't want that to happen again, so I'm planting my flag.

Also, I dislike the way Winston has danced around the DP read. Doesn't seem to actually be digging in for a read there, just throwing out stuff based on how the winds sound -- look at 451/453, he instantly changes from dangling out the w/w read to just saying, I agree with slaan, it's v/v. Then in 456 his explanation of why people are townreading DP reads like he's trying to subtly dismiss it as bad reasoning.

Also on Winston -- he called Kage town for no reason afaict (maybe protecting a partner?), and instead of giving actual reads on me/pizza has maintained a general aura of paranoia in that direction. It seems like what scum winston thinks town Winston would do.

I think reinoe could have sensed DP as someone he could push around and went for the throat. Kicking the puppy, as Renata and I think Monty have described it in the past. The level of being an abrasive, "I do what I want and I'm not nice about it!!!" feels overblown, like it's a performance. No person actually behaves like this unless it's an affectation.yeah ok so

this

this addresses a lot of things i want to address

i slept on my thoughts, but my opinions on this game are still fairly similar to what they were

1. you're... i don't think you've giving him as much credit as ye should?

i got the opposite impression, that he was doing it in a really clunky and... calculated way that was obviously gimmicky

this was making sure someone asked him about it, this wasn't lay a little bait to see if you pick it up

i think dp is the sort of player in whose range it would be to say if i do this it will likely be perceived as lol awkward villagery?

2. i would have agreed with you in the past

but lissa in particular and a few others have reacted in a quite similar way as wolves

i do think it's... not bad at all for him

also i

you know

i'm stopping

wrt point three, i was going to say that i thought his game was ~neutral

but as i talk about it i do feel like

the simpler/more straightforward solution here is that he's just a villager

that said, i think it still overlaps somewhat with his wolf range, and i do have an issue with gh/others? locking him in at this stage of the game, especially given weak reasons of meta tells that dp is certainly aware of and well able to use/manipulate at this point

could well be that there are other unspoken reasons but /shrug

also i thought his "pizza has one tell" post was villagery so

I think the bold is townie thoughts. Even while he's getting all this shade, Cuth is just looking for simple explanations and villagers.

He's not pushing a narrative. He's also not being bussed as far as I can tell. Usually they react to being pushed.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:17

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.my what now

You know. Did Cuth even vote for dp?

I don't think he did.

Checking.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 03:18

You know. Did Cuth even vote for dp?

I don't think he did.

Checking.

He did not. Askthepizzaguy

Xiahou

10-14-2017, 03:18

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:19

He did not. @Askthepizzaguy (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=23872)

LMFAO

Cuth lock town. Friggen. Amazing.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:21

We are back in business baby.

This day one is horrendous. I saw why Cuth was a town lean by isoing Cuth, but searching his name is way, way more effective.

Lynch inside of Csargo, Slaan, and Monty for the win.

Next three lynches boom boom boom.

Outstanding.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:23

Pizza
choxorn
dp101
Fredwood
Cuthillius <-----
Xiahou
-----
Monty
Slaan
Csargo

Even above Xiahou here.

Terrible!

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:24

I can only blame my excessive isoing burnout on this sloppiness.

I've read this game way too many fricking times.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:28

I think I've finally iso'ed everyone.

Except Monty.

And no thanks.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 03:30

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla. Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim. Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

I've got nothing left, you voted me with a one-liner.

If you can townread Xiahou off of 7 posts hats off to you, I'll leave you to your work. There's nothing left for me to say tbh.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 03:31

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla. Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim. Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

Monty's been under the radar / in a lot of towns and did suggest tying chox/logic.

Hiding in plain sight.

In any case I have my 6 townies and 3 scums and I feel a lot more secure in them than I did before.

Monty/Slaan earned their town leans, but Csargo didn't. Sloppy pizza.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 03:33

Alright.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 04:10

Time for me to go back and check that he actually did not vote me, I’m 90% sure but my memory can be pretty bad. I remember noticing that GH got it wrong at the time though, and I have absolutely no idea why I didn’t follow up on it.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 04:23

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 04:24

That deserves to win the game right there, if GH voted his own scum buddy for voting for DP when all he really did was ask a few questions.

That's brilliant, because how do you consider them scum buddies after that? How? How is that possible.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 04:27

I put Cuth outside of my town after all that. Lol me.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 04:28

Dat spew.

Dat spew.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 04:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGJuMBdaqIw

It's almost 6am and hopefully this will be the last night phase I am forced to hunt for bad guys.

Please, for the love of god, shoot me tonight. I have to see the cards now.

If it's outside of those three, I've been bested. BESTED.

WP to you.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 06:02

I'm still re-reading, so help me.

Here, colors.

Blue: Dead town or known town
Teal: Claim makes them town
Green: Leans

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (6): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha, Winston Hughes

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (5): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.

Cuth looking great due to the scum spew and GH's vote reasoning.

DP/Fred isos look outstanding. Interactions with the dead scum are all super favorable.

Xiahou meta and vote record indicates strongly in his favor.

Either Slaan was bussing, or that wagon was super clean before Csargo hopped on, or Monty is scum for trying to push for a tie between Chox and Logic artificially. Which is maybe the only error in an otherwise insane scum game. Monty's game is otherworldly if he's scum here. Still, I believe he has it in him. But wow what an achievement if so. Kept his WIM all the way.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 06:14

What about Dp101 and Fred's isos makes them outstanding?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 06:17

What about Dp101 and Fred's isos makes them outstanding?

Gah, I gotta stop my re-read to do this.

It's fine though, I have to make the legacy reads understandable.

Give me one sec, I'll pull up the dp interactions which look the best, and then do Fred.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 06:37

Let's call any post I don't quote possibly NAI, or this is the abbreviated version of his ISO anyway, to try to keep this ~readable.

Chunk 1: The early game, dp builds a town and demonstrates sass and real emotion.

I'm very lost.
response to my roleplaying.

Doing work and wrapping it in so many jokes and references that it's impossible to read is very hard to distinguish from pretending to do work. I'll try to read your logic post again to see if it makes sense, but I know for sure that I didn't get it my first time through.
I can believe this.

Quick, what does the pizza mega-analysis say about unfathomable certainty 3 hours into D1?
In his iso, you can see him asking people questions and demanding quick answers for a short stretch, and reaction testing Zack who seemed oblivious to what he was doing. Stirring the pot and poking things in a solving way.

Quick, give a read on me, I don’t think you’ve seen me play before so I’m curious as to what you think of my style.
Like this one.

Ok, Zack is town, locking it in.
In my opinion, dp101 would be impressed by Zack's post, which was voting me for town reading Zack. It's just a very dp101 thing to do. Hell, I had Zack as a town read and didn't budge at the time.

Logic isn't my strong suit. Neither are words. Or making good arguments. I'm bad at everything.
I think this post makes Csargo most likely to be town.
Again, Dp looking to build a town, not attack posts which are attackable.

Ehhh, no. I'm not convinced that scum stages that kind of joking breakdown so early and easily, I can't really see Csargo actually deciding to make that kind of post as scum, rather than a more standard rebuttal or backing down.
His process on you. Basically, he's anticipating that you have a really sweet scum game. That's a good defense.

I posted in another language, yet I think I was still more understandable than this. I think you are saying that you think you might have caught 2 scum, but haven't got town on board yet due to them not being obvious enough, but I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence.
Stuff like this is dp101 in mediator mode. He wants to facilitate understanding. I feel like this is dp's happy place. I've never really seen him not.

Every time I see you write incorrect, I imagine you yelling it at your screen as you type. It's highly amusing.
Humor feels where it should be. DP is relaxed.

So it's lazy for me to expect that other people should post in a manner that is easily understood without having to google things? More specifically, I have literally no chess knowledge, and so I wouldn't even know what part of the post quoted in 167 to put into google. I'm already tired of talking about how I tried joking about something and thought about reading someone off of it, but retracted it, so I'm not even going to address that point. I would love to know what you think I need to do to make a read worthwhile, because while you call post 247 a no effort read, you are missing 2 things: Firstly, me reading him town there was not just from that one post, but from his consistently natural behaviour congruent with standard town Zack gameplay, and secondly, I was joking in how confident I was because of his comment about him being annoyed with people strongly townreading him for no reason.

I love hearing someone call me lazy when I've posted 3-4 times as much as them. You claim that I'm posting just to post, but it's D1, that's my standard thing until someone actually makes a post that I feel I can make a case on them off of, and that hasn't happened yet. Thus, small jokes and reads. Quite frankly, the way you phrased this post makes it seem like you are trying to provoke me/insult me, and I think I should probably take a break so that I don't lash out more.

Ok apparently I'm not stepping away to cool down, because this is the most hypocritical post in the thread. You literally call me lazy, and then in the very next post, decline to do some very simple work asked in a friendly matter by someone who is most likely not scum at this point. Vote: reinoe because not only is your behaviour not helping town whatsoever, but you also seem determined to tilt people to put them off their game.

I am seriously going to take a break after this because this game is just making me angry right now, and I really really don't want to get tilted.
This is dp actually being offended by reinoe's rudeness. Even if you call it NAI, later, when he hears what my thoughts are on reinoe (that he's town, and this is kind of how reinoe might always behave because it seems to be characteristic of his personality) he is visibly depressed. As in, he cannot remove this guy from the game.

Do something useful, make a read.
Snapping at Csargo. This tells me that the anger is real, it's not just for show.

Posting that I am not understanding something is useful to town, because the point of posting is to communicate ideas, and if I'm not understanding someone's posts when they appear not to be jokes, it is very important that I say something so that everyone can cooperate and read each other with minimal confusion.

At no point did I say "please clear me, I posted a lot". When someone comes in and does one post of analysis that reads like it's a personal attack on me, centred around me apparently doing nothing, then refuses to answer a simple question, that's what ticks me off, not me not getting townread by you simply by posting a bunch. I don't care if you scumread me, I just want you to be consistent, and when you criticise me for something and then immediately exemplify it, can you understand why I'd get a little ticked off?
Back to mediator mode. Trying to facilitate understanding.

Hell "facilitating understanding" could be dp101's undertitle.

Being repetitively called lazy for expecting other people to talk in plain english (and yes I know I jokingly wrote a single word in another language but it's not even close to the same order of magnitude) was pretty tilting, as was the apparent expectation that every single thing I posted needed to be 110% solving. In particular, him zeroing in on me as lazy and not having done anything when there were multiple people who have spent far larger portions of their posts today screwing around really annoyed me, especially given that my initial stance entering the thread was that people were screwing around too much. Idk, as much as I call my own town play terrible or worthless occasionally, I don't appreciate it when other people do. The way that the whole thing was phrased also stuck out to me as being designed as insults. I think you'ld agree with me that basically every point he made could have been made in a nicer way, and I could not figure out why he seemingly went out of his way to antagonise me.
Like I said, even if you think this is NAI, I don't. reinoe's posts really bothered him.

Ok, seems reasonable to me thus far. I feel though that right now, Pizza is more likely to just be having fun as town, rather than being scum. I'll probably wait and see with him, maybe his pushes are correct. You can have an extremely light town read.
response to Csargo's reads list. Again, dp is building a town. Handing out town credits where he sees fit.

Thanks for explaining in a more clear fashion what I was getting at. You can be town, for now.
response to GH's post.

I’m not sure that scum winston lampshades this. Moderate town for now.
Still building a town.

Can we lynch pizza for all the chess references?Very tempting, but there’s a tell he hasn’t dropped yet.
I believe he thinks me voting him is a tell.

Let's break this up. Next section...

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 06:44

Chunk 2:

Dp's empathy and bleeding real townie emotion. Plus dat Logic vote.

It should be illegal for Pizza to be having this much fun, this is obscene.
DP putting himself into the other person's shoes. He sees I'm having fun and is empathetic. I feel like scums don't empathize well and are not in a mindset where they put themselves in the other person's shoes. It doesn't have to be part of their process.

I wonder if Pizza will post less if I give in and sheep him Vote: Logic
No matter how you look at this post, voting scum on d1 for this reason is Townie. As. :daisy:

He's only at +3 for a reason. Don't think this is a repeat of that, though. I think I can read reinoe based on his posts and personality.

The stuff he's not saying he's not saying it because he's kind of like Awa in game 11 in a certain sense, this is what he thinks is correct.

It's too close to his actual nature to be faked imo. If he's scum he is not indicating it yet in any way you can detect.

Yeah it's a risk to lock the slot town, but it's a small one. Play the odds.So you know who they are then?
Quote about reinoe.

Hey, there are some important bits, I had a decent fight. You could just use novice’s tool to collapse all posts by Pizza and Zack so you can read everything else to make it easier to get through.
I don't remember if I commented on this last time, but this is super townie. It's very helpful.

I have a wild guess. There's only maybe 2 or 3 people who have ever played with this uncooperative stubborn style who would have made their way here.

I can be wrong but I am right about this, they're not gonna change. Find the scums and you won't need to worry about him.

This is also a huge danger of trapping white pieces behind another piece that can't move. Dont. Do not do this. Focus on where you can move.

We need to coordinate as best we can under the circumstances.Well that sounds like this game will be extremely fun for me.
Here. This is super indicative to me. He's clearly crushed by the idea. A mafia shouldn't be bothered by reinoe so much, even if they were rude. You can kill him, you see.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:02

Chunk 3: The process, and the state of the game

Logic is straightforward. He can't hide in plain sight when he's a town power role, he just kind of vanishes. He has real thoughts as town that people sometimes dismiss for being too A ---> B, and as scum he's just kinda... like this. Not confident enough to battle, more liable to undercut or smudge, passive aggressive stuff. No depth, generic posts, catchable under pressure.

I don't think he can break out of this pattern since he's been at this for years. Logic is who he is. He needs someone who knows how to read him when he's town otherwise he's mislynch bait. He can hide under the radar if you don't push him as scum. He tenses up when he's got a town pr or scum role.So what about his play makes him not just a town PR? The vanishing from the thread your describe seems to categorise his play this game fairly well, and personally, that’s been a far larger element of his play than any slips early game. Maybe I should reread the start.
This makes sense. He's already helping pressure Logic, but wants to rule out some bad universes, like the one where he might flip town power role and his "scumminess" was because he was nervous about a town power. Prompted by my own comments about his town pr meta.

Well, now that I'm finally live, some combination of Fred, Barto, and Reinoe. I'd also like to stay live for a little while.I can deal with this minus Fred, his content has been intermittent but fairly genuine.
Still building a town. And when he has a town read, he argues in favor, or makes it known, especially when someone pushes on them. That's a good process.

As a matter of fact, I don't recall that @Dp101 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=100377) ever explained what he was referring to.
Oh, I was referring to his consistent early pushing of me when he's scum. I'm pretty happy calling him town now.
Yeah, think this is part of his process on me.

dp, gimme a spicy take
Csargo is town.
Still trying to build a town. He sees votes/suspicion on Csargo and tries to argue that the slot is town.

not a wolf
or town?
I don't care for the push on him either, but that's a S P I C Y leap.
Zack's interested in this read.

Well, a S P I C Y read was requested. I personally think that being worn out is a pretty likely reason for his volume and play thus far. I never really buy the "town got all the best players I guess we've lost" explanation for lost WIM, and personally, find lack of WIM to be pretty NAI overall. If the main thing against him is lack of content, then I think the case is bad, and other than lacking in quantity, his posts have been tonally sound, so, town.
Look at that process. These are complex thoughts showing actual depth.

2. i would have agreed with you in the past

but lissa in particular and a few others have reacted in a quite similar way as wolves

i do think it's... not bad at all for himI understand the overall sentiment of this post, but I take issue with this portion of it. You know very well that I am not lissa, or "a few others", and personally, after playing with me for as many games as you have, I would think that you'ld know that I don't often do the expected thing. In particular, I really try and avoid getting heated as a wolf, because I feel it strays too close to the kind of emotional manipulation that makes me feel guilty, as opposed to the more fun gleefully lying about what I feel and why I feel it. Your first post is slightly accurate in that I can certainly imagine myself screwing around a little like that as a wolf, but overall I think I'd only do that at MU. After how fast I was caught as scum the one time I randed it on this website, I'm pretty sure that if it happened again, I'd be really frozen and clunky in my posting out of fear of that same kind of rapid collapse.
This is a big one. This is dp101 spitting some truth about his wolf meta, I believe.

I waited a while to respond to that post because I wasn't quite sure how to phrase my reply to it, or if I really needed to reply given that you seemed to have come to the right conclusion, but I feel better having more of my thoughts out there in general.
Interesting additional depths to the above post.

hey dp

having a nice evening?No, I'm swamped with homework and have a large test tomorrow followed by some SAT subject tests the next day, so I'm actually kind of stressed. How about you?
Meanwhile, in Logic-land:

Vote count:

Pizza (2): Csargo, Manasi

Cuthillius (2): GH, Kagemusha

Zack (3): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Winston Hughes, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Zack, Reinoe

Not voting (1): Cuthillius

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.
His emotional state is not reflective of the wolf that's about to hang, or the other wolves GH and Zack under suspicion or actual vote pressure.

Dp's emotional state is all wrong if this is him as a wolf.

He says he's stressed, but it's about real life only. And it doesn't even bleed into the game. It's got nothing to do with the game. In the game, he's smooth and cool as a cucumber now that he's not having people be rude at him.

How you can tell it's not game related, is that the game actually seems to be a respite from actual stress. The game is relaxing him.

This is even before the GH and Zack chicanery.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:17

Chunk 4

The wolf team decides to commit suicide

Can’t believe there’s still another day until this phase is over. I’m glad that phases will become shorter later.
This is the stuff on dp's mind. He really has no idea he's about to lynch a wolf methinks.

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.
Much later, he's still trying to argue in favor of his town reads. Also "The swap to choxorn is hot garbage." As if the wolf team really needs dp saying this.

don't remember you being so quick to dismiss things as stupid and hot garbage before
Zaccino don't like it
dp rocks the kasbah, rocks the kasbah.

Note on time frame: Lots and lots of time between these posts above and below. Now it's nearing end of Day.

Zack I'm kicking you out of my town until further notice. I think Monty is right about you.
Well I think this is the towniest he’s ever been in any game I’ve played with him. I haven’t gone through and checked in what ways it is different, but just because someone’s different doesn’t make them scum.
Snap defends Zack. This is solid. This is how he's been defending all his town reads. He doesn't care who says his townies are scum, he'll say nay nay.

I feel that this statement comes from a tunneled perspective. You see it as coming from a wolf because you are already so certain of your push.
At this point, DP could easily fake and pretend to be worried I'm misleading the town and move off. Instead, he's trying to understand me and also trying to defend Zack as a town read. DP totally responsible for the Logic lynch.

Look, if it’s me and him in F3, I’ll vote him, because he should not be alive at that stage, but before then, I don’t think it’s a good option.
Solid process.

With 1h to go

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (7): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha, Winston Hughes, Csargo

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Choxorn (5): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Choxorn is the hot garbage lynch. He was on Logic since early early for very townie reasons.

Near end of round, Zack and GH begin flailing. Zack pushing Monty.

Zack please do not do this. Monty really hasn't done much AI at this point, other than be wrong, and we haven't even confirmed if he is wrong yet, I just think he is.
This is good interaction with Zack.

I mean, when have CFDs ever helped anyone. They always seem to exchange a reasonable lynch option for one that is essentially rand.

You guys are boring.Interesting != winning.
At this point, from what I can tell, Zack and GH crosspost a sudden push on dp.

Your team literally just got destroyed by a CFD in a game where you were a wolf.

I seem to recall you being the successful target of one in Jabbz's game.

And I don't think this is something you would forget either.
Both had him very strong or lock town. I think they went YOLO here after they saw the crosspost.

Vote: Dp101

pretty sure i gave dp too much credit early

have not liked his posting much since then
YOLO

gh is a gentleman and a scholar

Join me.

In all seriousness he's been on the business end of CFDs at least twice, one of them directly and he still pulls out that line.
This is one scum buddy coaching the other. If they have a quicktopic, clicking back and forth there takes too much time. Why not directly coordinate in the thread?

And so, they decide to "cfd" dp101, who was a townie read strongly for both, while Logic was hanging and DP is the reason why it happened.

And both Zack and GH fried for this cfd attempt, so DP is responsible for as many wolf deaths as anyone else.

And it don't look like a bus.

The end.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:19

Fredwood next.

Cuthillius

10-14-2017, 07:20

hi

i'm here

i think monty is towny, because the thoughts he's been expressing are relatively solid, but i

maybe

i'm not sure

more people are churning out far more content than i'd ever expect, but i think that's just because i would be awful at caring whatsoever about the game if my team died like that

i agree that pizza/fred/dp are all extremely towny

and slaan/monty aren't lickity lock villagers but i'd be super amazed and impressed if they were, particularly in slaan's case

i think he did a fine job of responding to pizza, i see why he was pushed but his replies were rock solid and he's stepping up the game

i have no damn idea about xiahou but i trust pizza for the most part

and i must have missed the chox thing but i think i get the gist just fine

aaand

i have no strong feelings about the poe

Csargo

10-14-2017, 07:20

This is my mediocre attempt at isoing Dp101:

Dp101:
Page 2 nothing
Page 3 back and forth, GH#220 calls Dp/Zack town
Page 4: Calls Zack town #247,
Page 5: # 317 has problem with ATPG’s RP, #338-339 strong reaction to reinoe analysis after prompting reinoe for it, #341 jebaited, exchange strange, #353 twisting the situation referring to him prompting reinoe for a read on him.
Page 6: #404 calls GH town, #405 criticizes Kage’s vote?,
Page 7: #515 Zack/GH solidly town; Cuth mediocre, Csargo underwhelming.
Page 8: #585 Vote:Logic,
Page 9: Says vote is mostly sheeping/not sure how to read logic,
Page 10: Calls me spicy town, #746 interesting, #760 interesting/good,
Page 11: Nothing
Page 12: #934 Zack more locktown/defending him, doesn’t like the logic case as much anymore, GH more town, Zack Barto case looks decent, chox lynch hot garbage.

GH’s 948:

reinoe

I'm somewhere around here right now:

Zack - scum
Kage - town
Monty

Dp101
reinoe - town
Slaan
Logic - scum
Winston -town
ATPG - town

---town line---

Csargo
Xiahou
Cuth
Fredwood
El Barto - town

Choxorn - claim joat
Manasi - town

~~~~~~

Zack is obvious town, Kage I already talked about, Monty seems like usual Monty.

The people in the next best slot all are either matching their town meta or are otherwise helping push the gamestate along in a way I consider to be townie.

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that. I don't really have a read on Csargo and Cuth is sort of improving for me since I voted him early on in the phase as he gets more engaged, but he's not there yet. Fredwood I need to take another look at now that we've had some distance from our interaction yesterday and how it went down.

Choxorn as town just has... more bite to him. I'm not really seeing that from him here. Compare his some of his posts in Swords and Sorcery, where he was town:

To posts in Representative Democracy, where he was mafia:

And he's just more direct and to the point when he's town. So far the closest note he's hit here is probably this post:

Which isn't quite there.

Not the best, but I'm tired. I feel like Slaan's probably our last baddie at this point, but I have concerns about Dp101 from what I've isoed so far, they're mild at best, but such is life.

Cuthillius

10-14-2017, 07:21

will be around for prolly fifteen minutes and then i'm hitting the hay

Csargo

10-14-2017, 07:24

Also, chances that the last scum is in the top half of GH's list with the other two?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:24

will be around for prolly fifteen minutes and then i'm hitting the hay

You saw chox's claim, yes?

He can't claim that and live, so he's town.

Csargo/Slaan/Monty are the only people who I can't lock town. Slaan and Monty have really deep games if they're a wolf.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:25

Also, chances that the last scum is in the top half of GH's list with the other two?

NAI, Gh would put his scums anywhere. All scummy, mostly scummy, null, half and half, mostly townie.

You can't be predictable and he can effortlessly read his own teammates town.

Cuthillius

10-14-2017, 07:29

You saw chox's claim, yes?

He can't claim that and live, so he's town.

Csargo/Slaan/Monty are the only people who I can't lock town. Slaan and Monty have really deep games if they're a wolf.

that's squarely where i'm at as well

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:38

Fredwood the townie

Chunk one: No idea how correct we are. Plus, snappy comebacks.

Sup Jerks. So I read all this thread...lol@me I even viewed 7 minutes of the two minute videos posted.

The blowback confused, suss of Pizza for doing what he's doing feels almost concerted and deliberately obtuse to get the early discredit on him. The style is atypical, but I don't feel the content is atypical. (The one game I've played). Interesting how quickly the stance was backed off. I do have an issue with his town read of Rein, but will get into that later.

I like Zack, I also think he's villa, with a conditional hedge so I can move back my knight to starting position later. I've only played with town Zack, and he seems more solvey early in this game then those others. I hesitate to go full town core on him, but I'm not going to vote off top poster day 1.

:creep:

Reinoe

This post isn't accurate, if anything Zack is attacking or picking at people who are town reading him. He attacked both Pizza and GH's town read of him. If you want to get into how attacking your town reads is easy town equity, Well too late, Zack already pointed that out for easy town equity. Rein's post at best means he's not actually reading Zack's posts.

Csargo's agreement with Rein doesn't feel right either, he agrees with the inaccurate part of his post but not the rest of it?

It feels like a stretch to townread CS for his "I'm bad at eveyrthing" line after getting nuked by Zack in an argument. DP seems especially limpber

Can I say the DP/Rein interaction feels fake AF, from either one or both sides I'm not sure which. Read in spoiler if you're interested, otherwise Wall o' Text.

Rein drops for names in his hot take read post. Has associative reads based on Logic as if Logic has already flipped, but not pushing the actual logic flip. (I think Logic is scum, and I think Zack is scum for not talking to Logic, therefore I shall vote Zack...the F?) Meanwhile mentions Pizza and GH as town with no reasoning.

DP begs for him to drop a read on himself, and Rein has this bajillion word post he drops on DP about lazy and faking confusion...so you had that many thoughts on DP but didn't bring it up in your first post? During all this time he's ignoring Zack's question about his town reads and Monty's question about Winston. As if your town reads aren't just important for viewing your progression as town reads.

Vote: Reinoe
Good complex thoughts opening post by Fredwood.

Yeah, I am dead. Rest in Peace me.
For reference, what Fred is reacting to next

Well, that was a completely normal reaction.
Good reaction to Csargo's reaction.

You're right. My town reads are not as important to me as my scumreads. And yes, I'm deliberately not answering Zack's question about said townreads. Although I disagree with what you're saying. DP seems genuinely frustrated in a "caught for the wrong reasons" kind of way and I'm sincere about getting tired of him constantly talking about being confused.

Although I didn't call logic sum for not talking to Zack. I didn't give a reason for why logic is scum (it's for 215 which seems so out of place). I said they're talking to each other. My reasons for thinking logic is suspicious is entirely separate.I don't care about your suss on Logic aside from the fact that you're not pushing him. My issue is you pushing Zack over logic because "Zack" didn't talk to logic. You're saying logic is scum, therefore Zack is scum because he's avoiding logic. Well get logic lynched first then go after Zack.
BAM!

Instantly huge townie points for Fredwood. This is like... impossible.

No, I'm not saying logic is scum therefore zack is scum.

1. Logic is scum independently of Zack.

2. Zack has talked to everything that moves except logic. Therefore they're either masons/scum/neighbors. I stated this once already. Either way they're talking to each other OOT and thus have no reason to talk in thread.

3. Zack is scummy independent of Zack.

They are not necessarily scum together but somehow they are talking to each other.https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls7e18SQZO1qdnwiro1_500.gif
Like, Fredwood agrees that you should push on both, but in a different order. reinoe's explanation after that made no sense to him, so he posts this.

The picture is worth a thousand words, and I think that Fredwood has absolutely no idea reinoe is pushing on 2 scums here.

This is crazy good.

I think Fred could be a bit better so far.I think your hat looks dumb
LMFAO still at this post. Great snap back. Fredwood not taking any soft crap from GH. Go hard or go home.

I feel like you were more active at least slightly in your self-defense in X-Com, I guess I should re-read that.
In response to Csargo saying "cool" to suspicion on him. Then he seemingly does go re-read it.

Oh good, the iso only works for one day phase.
Thing is, I ISO and stuff to make cases even when I'm a wolf, so it's NAI technically. But for most people, give em a town point for this. The above reason "more active" in self-defense between games reads like a real, spontaneous scum read on Csargo. Not contrived.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:54

I guess the first 72 hours are going to be boring until we keep repeating ourselves about how we're going to lynch Logic, I don't think I've ever seen such a consensus Day 1.

Bart's entrance was sloppy, but I don't think as sloppy as Rein's.

Otherwise I caught up and most of it was Pizza's spam posts, the only other thing is I think I put Slaan solidly at the top of my Town pile. Zack hasn't looked as strong during this catchup, but a part of that may be him just being frustrated and bickering with Pizza and Bart. His assessment of Bart's meta is interesting.

I will address the CSargo thing, I wasn't using his last game as a baseline for his read, I was referring specifically to how he defended himself. His responses to pressure have literally been "cool" or a version of "you got me". In that game whenever it came up Csargo is scum he was more playful and snarky. I'm not talking about his activity, or content outside of his reaction to pressure, which I think it's fair to think for it to be consistent no matter the situation. Still in the end I said I didn't think it was a fair baseline for comparison anyway, so DON'T LECTURE ME.
Maybe NAI, but looks like a good process.

Fredwood has his own reads and he's moving at his own pace. He's not on board with the Zack or Logic stuff but he actually encouraged someone to lynch both just now. The guy he's voting, in fact.

I've been busier and don't actually want to keep up that rate of activity

I did that in the one game with mtgs on MU that was 72/24. It was exhausting and miserable. Can't go hard in the paint 72 hours straight, it's not healthy for me.
Zack's response to Fredwood's mention of his dropping activity / wim

I was more talking about your seeming annoyed by Bart and Pizza which did mess with the flow and content you had earlier. I'm not demanding any type of activity, I don't think I've posted 10 times. Still high up in my town, was just explaining why I'd put Slaan ahead of you now in his own tier.
See, Fredwood doesn't have to be lynching scums for posts like this to clear him.

This is bananas.

FINALLY, a dissenting opinion about Logic.
Essentially his one reason not to push on Logic. Seemed too easy, wagon was too popular. Fredwood was chasing his own leads.

It's bad for the health of the game and a LOT more valuable if the discussion continues.

Look at how much we found when we didn't just mega-wagon Logic. The dissent and continued drama and unsure outcome made all the other scums catchable.

Don't create enormouswagons, even on scum. It's bad for the game and bad for town. You can do better than lynch 1 scum. Lynch 1 scum and find their buddies.

what am i, chopped liver

I mean, how many times does someone call a naturally suspicious looking person a wolf 1/3 into d1, literally almost the entire game says "sure bud" and votes him, and they actually flip wolf?
Zack's response to Fredwood.

I thought Reinoe's entrance was fine. Why didn't you like it?
GH's response to Fredwood.

No, you're at least Corned Beef. I thought your logic stance was not as strong as a scum read, but were willing to lynch. GH is the first person to call Logic not mafia.

If it's two, then cool

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/underwear-dance.gif

More victory dances.
LOL

Maybe it wasn't his entrance, but it's the first time I noticed him, so I misspoke. My issue was his first content post, and then further his DP post.

His Logic scum read and somewhat associative read with Zack but pushing Zack before Logic.

He said independently that he has a scum read on Zack, buuuuut, the read he gave was inaccurate, he accused him of OMGUS when Zack did as much picking at people town reading him as he dis people scum reading him. That and his DP post felt forced AF, and overly long, when he didn't mention him before.

I can be talked down from a ledge on him, I just don't really have a stronger inclination to go to at this moment. The Logic thing was bothering me because it felt like an overwhelming damnation of the poor guy.
YES.

Fred why am I your top town read?
Started with your GH joke, I liked you questioning of Pizza during his catchup. Also the sass at Zack during this time. It feels like you're keeping the thread in check and I like the tone. Considering I only have like two town leans in this game so far, you're the best of two, so take that as you will.
Pretty good post considering Zack's flip. Depth in this read.

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.
This is hardly arguing against the Logic lynch, it's even supportive. This is a bad position to put yourself in if you're a wolf and are not okay with Logic being dead.

Where is the "let's lynch Barto today, for these reasons. Put him in contention with Logic". Etc.

Nonexistent. He's just solving on his own.

Basically yeah, I'm willing to vote either here, but I think I'm leaning Logic (unfortunately)

In your experience, how often has the consensus lynch choice halfway through a D1 been correct?
Trying to get support for some non-logic lynch. Fredwood isn't really on the fence, but he's not whole hog on Logic, so he should be "gettable" and persuadable to push elsewhere mebbe.

And what do you mean "unfortunately?" If you're town you're not hemmed into any particular read here, you get to say what you want.
Sensing weak post, attackable at least?

this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip
Zack joins the attack as well.

Winston, thoughts on Fred's "unfortunately"?
Attackable.

Zack and GH both looking for attackable things at this stage of the game. They go for Monty, Fred, and dp at various times.

"attackable" meaning attackable townies.

We are done here.

Unfortunately. :wink:

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:56

If any of DP or Fredwood are scum, they are the greatest of all time.

Those isos cannot be faked.

Xiahou could conceivably fake his town game, because it's easier. You just have to copy and paste the structure and keep your head down and hope Slaan doesn't lynch you.

But he looks great.

Cuth just got spewed mega hard by GH and every other scum, so.

Chox is lock.

Those are 5 locks plus me. What else is there to do except lynch the other three.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 07:57

9am now.

If there are any other questions directed at me, I'll have to answer them before midnight tonight, in 15 hours.

But I feel like I've earned a nap.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 08:06

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Pizza for MVP.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 08:15

Dp101 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?100377-Dp101)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/guild/statusicon/user-online.png

Facilitating Understanding

YES.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 11:09

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Pizza for MVP.

Eh he stopped his ISO right before my best moment of the game, so no.

Ok, you got me, MVP points.

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 18:01

Aha, a guilty one!

11 posts. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?70301-Cosa-Nuova-A-New-Mafia-

Concluded&p=1281387&viewfull=1#post1281387)

He actually unvotes and votes for someone else.

Look how he's tossing shade onto people.

Scum-Xiahou from a long time ago:

Compare to his other town games and this game.

I see... words.

Where are his words when he's town? He's got less than half this amount.

His suspects all game have been Csargo (early game, and now), GH, and Zack. That's all.

Csargo could even be scum. Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

Let me check the other games. I don't remember him being especially wordy, but I'll look.

This game was more than a decade ago. If nowadays he plays once every few years, he won't be tied to many conventions or habits.
I understand the notion of taking the slot by default as less likely scum simply for partner aggression in a low-post space, but the game you pulled up is not evidence for any meta now.

Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

He voted for Barto D1 and Manasi in the D3 hammer. People generally haven't had as many opportunities to vote townies; not a point to hold Csargo alone to. So far Xiahou has voted Zack, GH, and (on D4) Csargo.

LOL wrong thread.

Anyway, he's a bit more talkative in VII, but, only here and there.

Instead, I'm finding this, like in Pirate ship.

This post in Pirate Ship III is basically Xiahou's town meta.

Says a reason or asks why it's not wrong, reasoning is super straightforward, or simply a declaration they're scum. They vote, and generally, he does not unvote.

It's rare that he even moves a vote. When he does, it's because the discussion and evidence has pushed him that way. Otherwise he seems to prefer to vote whoever he thinks is scummy once a round,

whether they're being voted already or not. This, plus a few or a couple examples each game where he strings together a few sentences.

Usually a couple separate topics involved, so he's only on any one topic for a sentence or two. But then he returns to one-liners, which are sporadic.

His scum meta was much denser, and involved more shading and persuasion attempts and fewer one liners. And there's a clear difference in intent.

There are clear attempts to control the outcome of the game, from his vantage point of not saying a whole lot, by changing minds and making arguments to push townies in a direction.

In other words, my guess is, Xiahou!scum would have repeated such an attempt here, and said things to push the game in any direction. To persuade the rest of us where to go.

Instead, he's content to come out of the shadows like a ninja, attack someone, and slip back in.

And that's what he does as town. He's not about that controlling the discussion life.

Xiahou is a ninja assassin as town, and his scum game involves visible intent to change course.

I believe he'd change course on Zack or GH or not target them in the first place.

Or it's player-meta, not alignment-meta.

Opening post this game.

Keep in mind, Zack had gotten votes on D1. He had been voted more than once and been shaded by a couple of people before this vote.

But he was also not lock scum or a lost cause nor did he have a big wagon at the time. In fact reinoe had unvoted him.

This is just a bizarre place to put a vote if Xiahou is scum. Timing-wise, plus the fact that he's just not someone who unvotes.

This was a voting Zack to death vote, when Zack was going super hard.

Xiahou lock town based off of this one post alone, and I'm serious about that lock. Look at the context.

Look at his meta and who he is. Look at who Zack is. That's not someone you bus d1. It goes against every single mafia principle.

Why does Xiahou care who Zack is?

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla.

Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim.

Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

On the other hand, Csargo's been read as not trying at all, and this being non-indicative at worst.

You yourself have gone under the radar.

Monty's been under the radar / in a lot of towns and did suggest tying chox/logic. Hiding in plain sight.

In any case I have my 6 townies and 3 scums and I feel a lot more secure in them than I did before.

Monty/Slaan earned their town leans, but Csargo didn't. Sloppy pizza.

I don't think I tend to be UTR anymore. Not for years.

He didn't.

I'm laffin. :laugh4:

An advanced search suggests he didn't vote anyone in the game except Manasi D3. (This isn't contesting your read, I've also town-read Cuth since my ISO.)

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 18:05

Askthepizzaguy

Do you have any advice on how to format ISOs to build case, and how to ISO with format in mind?

I'm struggling a lot to make something more useful than just a final claim alone, without resorting either to exhaustive description or to layering quote chains by 5+ levels.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 18:37

NAI, Gh would put his scums anywhere. All scummy, mostly scummy, null, half and half, mostly townie.

You can't be predictable and he can effortlessly read his own teammates town.

I'd say it's more likely they're in the top half imo, given the other shenanigans in this game. Potentially the top part below his town line.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 18:41

@Askthepizzaguy (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=23872)

Do you have any advice on how to format ISOs to build case, and how to ISO with format in mind?

I'm struggling a lot to make something more useful than just a final claim alone, without resorting either to exhaustive description or to layering quote chains by 5+ levels.
Your question includes the phrase "to build (a) case", so I'll expand beyond just formatting.

I've noticed that people don't click links or even reference posts which are walls of analysis with links. referencing with links and post numbers is less effective. This is fine for your own note taking and planning out your thoughts, but it's for your own open notebook work. No one else will touch it.

So, when presenting your findings, and since the org doesn't automatically include quotes inside of a quoted post, if it is relevant copy and paste it and throw quote tags around it and say who said it. The main quoted post will include a link, so no need to get links. If people want links they can click through. Include the original quote properly so people can easily click through if they're not sure of your context.

Cut out bits that do not refer to what you're talking about, indicate if it's in the middle of text by (snip). Otherwise, if it's just a small section, you can simply quote that one section. Otherwise, leave context as much as is reasonable.

Do things in chronological order as much as possible. Sometimes quoting other major events or tallies that happened around that time frame can help people place when this happened.

Make any point you intend to make in as few sentences as possible, unless it's an important point or requires more explanation to be understood.

The important part is not convincing, but showing what you were thinking, so that thought is also in the reader's mind whether they agree with the assumptions or not. All you're doing is having them consider your POV.

Stuff that is less valuable or alignment indicative can be skipped. If you have a good point make it in fewer quotations (my weakness).

Include things you see which contradict your own point, so you remember that even when you were trying to scum-read this person, you saw them do X which was townie looking, or even when you were trying to town-read this person, you couldn't shake the feeling that Y was scummy. Sometimes you have to see things from both perspectives, and if you can't ignore a scummy thing while town reading someone it could be important, or it might not be. But don't forget it.

Example, when I was originally town reading Slaan, I struggled super hard to town read his JAQ wall. I was concluding and trying to find evidence for, and ultimately, I could barely talk myself into that one. I basically had to resort to "this could just be how he is".

Sometimes it's less of a forced read. Like, I had an odd gut feeling about a dp post, but even at the time, I was not forcing myself to be of two minds about it. It got my attention, so I looked at it in detail, but it wasn't what I thought it was upon analysis and thought that it only looked like something bad in passing.

ISOing someone is tricky on the org. I employed liberal use of ignore mode (for the non-moderator players) on dead townies and strong town reads alike, often as many people as possible, leaving not ignored dead scums and the host's vote counts, and the person in question I wanted to ISO. Call it a poor man's multi-iso.

You can also just control+F name, but the issue is, you'll be reading every single instance of that name and you could miss abbreviated versions of the name. So, like for Cuth for example, search Cuth instead of Cuthillius and you'll also get the abbreviated version.

When looking for just the next instance of this person's post only while not doing an isolated post search (of limited utility on the org...) instead control+F and look for their current total number of posts, join date, under title, or location, something more unique than just their name which will appear to the side of their posts. For example for you, I'd search Sep 2010.

And the meta on Xiahou is relevant because it hasn't changed in a decade, including several games since then, and one very recent one.

It means this is who he is, and it isn't changing. If anything it only more firmly establishes that he's set in his ways. Like Logic, he's not changing.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 18:47

I'd say it's more likely they're in the top half imo, given the other shenanigans in this game. Potentially the top part below his town line.

Generic, but ok. Who specifically is your last 3 lynches?

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 19:14

And the meta on Xiahou is relevant because it hasn't changed in a decade, including several games since then, and one very recent one.

It means this is who he is, and it isn't changing. If anything it only more firmly establishes that he's set in his ways. Like Logic, he's not changing.

The problem is you're both arguing and assuming that it hasn't changed. You see? Ultimately he could have a more generalized approach because he isn't engaged with either the culture or the specific games to a large degree. Why is that less plausible than, 'He should be agenda-setting as mafia because he did that once 10 years ago'?

Csargo

10-14-2017, 19:57

Generic, but ok. Who specifically is your last 3 lynches?

Slaan/Xiahou/not sure

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 20:41

I tried and failed, new attempt, new approach. How do I go about this?

I think it's a reasonable question. How did the 3 flipped scum interact with each other, read each other, and how did the 3 flipped scum interact with and read the flipped townies? Are there any systematic distinctions to be found? If so, what can we discover if we apply these systematic distinctions between the flipped scum and the living players? Can living players be differentiated according to such a model, and how does this match up to the POE obtained by other means?

:wall:

Here's the impenetrable morass up to Post 240 + Logic ISO:

I’m looking for systematic differences in how two or all scums interacted with each other and how two or all scums interacted with confirmed townies. Then, I check against the rest of the living players.

Zack (N2)

GH: 1. Game-start banter Zack to GH: “aren’t ellipses a wolf tell?”
2. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.
Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.
Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.
3. Responding to Zack’s question on how GH sees Zack’s meta: It’s mostly “tone and stuff”, but also that Zack challenges townreads others give him, though he did that before as scum, but GH thinks he wouldn’t pull that trick twice. Zack challenges GH reading based on his “tone”, and offers that he contests Zack townreads as scum all the time because WIFOM.

Logic: 1. Zack banters with Logic on Logic’s banter with GH over GH’s welcome-vote on Logic.
2. In his first big reads post, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza.
3. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

GH (D2)

Zack: 1. Game-start banter Zack to GH: “aren’t ellipses a wolf tell?”
2. Zack includes GH in banter w/ Slaan (forum skins).
3. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.
Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
4. Responding to Zack’s question on how GH sees Zack’s meta: It’s mostly “tone and stuff”, but also that Zack challenges townreads others give him, though he did that before as scum, but GH thinks he wouldn’t pull that trick twice. Zack challenges GH reading based on his “tone”, and offers that he contests Zack townreads as scum all the time because WIFOM.

Logic: 1. Banters with GH about his vote on him.
4. Reinoe’s first post is a vote for Logic. Zack asks him some questions about off-site identity, notifies him of impending welcome-lynch from GH.
2. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

Logic (D1)

Starts thread with off-topic banter involving Zack and Slaan.
In sum, banters or tries to with Slaan, Csargo, Zack, GH, Cuth, and Fred.

Zack: 1. Zack banters with Logic on Logic’s banter with GH over GH’s welcome-vote on Logic.
2. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
3. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”. Logic asks DP why he keeps saying that. This comes right after Zack’s vote on DP and the reaction test admission. DP explains the meta behind the reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.
X. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

GH: 1. GH welcome-votes Logic, asks why others haven’t done the same.

Winston (N1)

In post 123, Winston proposes the scum team Zack/Pizza/GH/Monty. DP calls it spicy, Monty notices that Winston seems to have identified the top-posters (exchanging GH for Slaan, and Pizza calls it suspicious.

Zack: 1. Winston voting exchanges with Zack. Mutual bantering and shading.
2. Monty asks Zack what it means that Winton hasn’t claimed miller. Zack implies it means Winston is scum and must die. Or he’s a neutral survivor.
3. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it.
4. Still game start, but Winston has done Zack’s ISO and it is 40 posts with no solving, buddying with the main influencers, and total manipulation. Zack takes it in stride, acts like it’s just what Winston should find. But Winston thinks Zack bit off more than he could chew, and implies TDome. Pizza wonders whether a stalemate could emerge.
5. Zack susses Winston for not having fun. DP questions this. Zack questions back. DP thinks fun Winston is probably town Winston. Zack says that’s the point: Winston stopped being fun earlier than expected. Monty meta-comments on DP’s reaction to this and Pizza’s reaction to Winston’s scum team by affecting ominousness. Winston banters in response. Zack returns the banter. Pizza likes Zack’s reasoning for suss. And more mutual banter.
6. Winston provides leans that list Zack, GH, and Pizza as scum , Monty as 3P, Logic and Csargo null, and Slaan and DP town. Zack asks if any of these are serious, potentially challenging Pizza as scum or DP/Slaan as town, or Monty as 3P. Winston is vaguely serious but not entirely honest. Pizza approves the list. Monty considers the leans strong and votes Zack for challenging them. Zack boos Monty’s post, asking why the leans are brave and calling Monty unusually low-effort.
7. Monty asks Winston what kind of 3P he thinks he is. Winston tries to place him according to level of aggression. Zack banters that his dream role in a game would be SK with BP and cop-immune. DP asks for elaboration on aggression levels. Monty asks if it’s aggression generally or something about his own meta. Winston answers DP, it depends who it is.

GH: 1. GH banters with Winston during game-start; Winston shades GH.

Logic: 1. Winston takes Slaan’s request to lynch Pizza for RP as a joke, but answers seriously why it’s a bad idea with reference to meta. Logic passive-aggressively susses Winston’s post and suggests it sounds like both willingness to lynch Pizza, and an admission that he is town.
2. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

Kagemusha (N2)

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. In his first reads post and followup, Logic thinks Kage’s vote on Slaan seems like a lazy joke vote (esp. since Logic doesn’t see Slaan as scum), makes more than reasonable chance scum. Slaan not scum because:

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.
2. Kage asks Slaan why Logic refuses to explain why he townreads him (Slaan). Logic responds by pointing back to his old 1-sentence account of Slaan, but does not elaborate. Shades Kage for not knowing what “ISO” is.

Reinoe (N3)

Zack: 1. Reinoe’s first post is a vote for Logic. Zack asks him some questions about off-site identity, notifies him of impending welcome-lynch from GH.

GH:

Logic: 1. In his first big reads post, observes without value judgement that Reinoe is the target of DP’s ire, and Reinoe is voting Logic. Logic isn’t sure of the reasons behind the vote, wonders if it’s merely sheeping Pizza or if there are other reasons.

Manasi (D3)

Zack: 1. Zack during game-start asks Manasi to get in thread.

GH:

Logic:

El Barto (D4)

Zack:

GH:

Logic:

Montmorency

Zack: 1. During game start, Monty says Zack-Winston-Csargo interactions/wagons are scummy. Zack doesn’t get it, says it’s two idiots clicking buttons and shouldn’t jump to w/w conclusions. I declare intent to follow up on the suss later.
2. Monty asks Zack what it means that Winton hasn’t claimed miller. Zack implies it means Winston is scum and must die. Or he’s a neutral survivor.
3. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it. Monty claims it’s scummy to say that because Zack is voting Csargo. Zack responds that early wagons disappear by EOD and we have plenty of time.
4. Monty comments on Winston’s game-start ISO of Zack with approval for prospective TDome.
5. Winston provides leans that list Zack, GH, and Pizza as scum , Monty as 3P, Logic and Csargo null, and Slaan and DP town. Zack asks if any of these are serious, potentially challenging Pizza as scum or DP/Slaan as town, or Monty as 3P. Winston is vaguely serious but not entirely honest. Monty considers the leans strong and votes Zack for challenging them. Zack boos Monty’s post, asking why the leans are brave and calling Monty unusually low-effort. Monty pushes back. Zack asks, “So?”. Pizza comments cryptically, confusing Zack and DP.
6. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Monty calls this buddying. Zack calls it confirmation bias. Monty won’t dignify that with words. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
7. Monty asks Winston what kind of 3P he thinks he is. Winston tries to place him according to level of aggression. Zack banters that his dream role in a game would be SK with BP and cop-immune. DP asks for elaboration on aggression levels. Monty asks if it’s aggression generally or something about his own meta. Winston answers DP, it depends who it is.
8. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.
Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.
Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.
Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.
Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

Logic: 1. In response to exchanges between Pizza, Zack, and DP following from Pizza’s vote on Logic, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”. Pizza buddies Monty.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

Choxorn

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. When Logic reappears for EOD, it is ~2 days after his last post. He self-pres votes Choxorn.

DP

Zack: 1. DP enters thread and Zack banters, but DP wants to take things seriously. Zack keeps it light, lampshading Mafia game-start. DP complains about post count.
2. Zack susses Winston for not having fun. DP questions this. Zack questions back. DP thinks fun Winston is probably town Winston. Zack says that’s the point: Winston stopped being fun earlier than expected.
3. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”.
4. DP agrees with Zack that Monty’s post voting Zack for challenging Winston’s leans is bad, but DP’s reasoning is that Monty is superficial, fake, and trying too hard to be casual. Monty admits it’s the clipped sentence structure he’s been using.
5. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Monty calls this buddying. Zack calls it confirmation bias. Monty won’t dignify that with words. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
6. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
7. Zack votes DP for saying “SPICY”. DP anticipated this and admits to doing it as a reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.
Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.
Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

Logic: 1. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”. Logic asks DP why he keeps saying that. This comes right after Zack’s vote on DP and the reaction test admission. DP explains the meta behind the reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.
2. In response to Pizza defending his RP to DP101, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.
3. In his first big reads post, besides shading Cuth on finding DP awkward, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza.

ATPG

I’m not tallying every instance of a direct attack by Pizza on Logic.

Zack: 1. Zack game-start banter. Then Zack claims he doesn’t understand any of Pizza’s starting material (did Pizza “switch accounts with El Barto?”). Pizza disagrees.
2. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it.
3. Pizza comments on Winston’s game-start ISO of Zack with banter.
4. Pizza likes Zack’s reasoning for sussing Winston.
5. Zack asks Pizza about the self-meta he made after XCOM.
6. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
7. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza.
8. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
9. Zack shades Pizza for agreeing with GH’s read on Zack (i.e. trying to read Zack). But Pizza claims Zack is more readable than most of the game so far.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.
Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”

Logic: 1. Pizza opens with suss on Logic. Logic is obsequious and self-deprecatory in his responses, even as Pizza summarily votes him and implies his death.
2. In response to exchanges between Pizza, Zack, and DP following from Pizza’s vote on Logic, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”. Pizza buddies Monty.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.
3. In his first big reads post, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza. Also, Csargo and Pizza not teamed. One could be wolf, but not both. Pizza feels really weird, not sure if on same team as Logic, playing “by the seat of his pants”.
4. Winston takes Slaan’s request to lynch Pizza for RP as a joke, but answers seriously why it’s a bad idea with reference to meta. Logic passive-aggressively susses Winston’s post and suggests it sounds like both willingness to lynch Pizza, and an admission that he is town.

Csargo

Zack: 1. Following the exchange with GH, Csargo votes Zack during the game-start flurry. Zack banters and joke-votes Csargo for using ellipses (a “scumtell”, as he asked GH earlier). Csargo banters.
2. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza.
3. Reinoe comes in accusing Zack and Logic, with ATPG and GH probably town. Csargo disagrees with everything except on Zack (“Zack's quality vs quantity isn't very good at all. There's almost no gamesolving other than OMGUS.”). Zack and Csargo get into a quarrel about Zack and OMGUS. Csargo gives up.

Logic isn't my strong suit. Neither are words. Or making good arguments. I'm bad at everything.

GH: 1. Csargo enters thread by bantering with GH, and GH votes him (RVS).

Logic: 1. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza. Logic responds to Csargo with more banter.
2. Following Csargo’s forsaking the squabble with Zack, Logic makes wordplay on Csargo’s closing post (“Logic isn’t my strong suit”), banters, and declares a break from the thread.
3. In his first big reads post, Logic thinks Csargo and Pizza not teamed. One could be wolf, but not both.

Fredwood

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. After GH writes up a reads post including shade at Fred, Fred gives GH a flippant response. Logic tries to banter with Fred wrt that flippant response.

Cuthilius

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. After Cuth’s entrance, Logic banters about chess and asks shades a bit by asking why he gets a feeling no on else seems to (i.e. finding DP and his “SPICY” reaction test weird and stiff). Wonders if he is suspicious of DP.

Slaan

Zack: 1. Game-start banter with Zack.
2. Zack includes GH in banter w/ Slaan (forum skins).

GH: 1. During game-start banter, Slaan mentions he only has experience playing w/ GH and Fred (some confidence reading), and Cuth and Manasi (unsure if able to read).

Logic: 1. In his first reads post and followup, Logic thinks Kage’s vote on Slaan seems like a lazy joke vote (esp. since Logic doesn’t see Slaan as scum), makes more than reasonable chance scum. Slaan not scum because:

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.
2. Kage asks Slaan why Logic refuses to explain why he townreads him (Slaan). Logic responds by pointing back to his old 1-sentence account of Slaan, but does not elaborate. Shades Kage for not knowing what “ISO” is.

Xiahou

Zack:

GH:

Logic:

Banter is, uh, important for D1 development.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 20:50

If parts of the case are just not you at all, then I can understand your reaction. My scum suit might not fit your frame and I was coming on very strong.

Well I know I don't to mechanical long con strategies as mafia, they don't work out very often in my experience. Just get that town read and survive is usually enough for me... ^^. It's probably also the reason I fell this game because I havent been doing any fake claming to draw a NK either which is why it probably looks akward from your position and thus scumreadable or w/e.. oh well :)

So a question to Slaan, Pizza or whomever. Taking out voting record and spew which concerns you more in the current game state (one where we caught 3 scum in the first 2 days):

7 posts total

or

3 posts since Day 1?

One thing I feel like I need to make clear is that me scumreadingi Xiahou is not because of his low number of posts alone. The slight activity fall off... well duno where this is coming from. Seeing all mafia buddies getting killed so quickly could certainly kill motivation which could explain Cuth or Xia's slight drop in postings... on the other hands I slightly scumread Barto because he got more active because for some being solo triggers a WIM 'now I'm gonna show them and own this game' reflex... So the change in activity is overall NAI in my eyes... only difference would be if the content of posts reflected a dropping motivation which would be unusual for town after being so sucessful to match with declining number of posts but I don't think that's the case on anyone here... well on Cuth it kinda fits I guess. He came in yesterday as well to announce he is there and then nothing. Perhaps saw he was in the PoE for many ppl and just essentially gave up? I hope I'm wrong on that read cuz then he just makes us suffer through endless days of lynching down PoE but duno.

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 21:00

Well I know I don't to mechanical long con strategies as mafia, they don't work out very often in my experience. Just get that town read and survive is usually enough for me... ^^. It's probably also the reason I fell this game because I havent been doing any fake claming to draw a NK either which is why it probably looks akward from your position and thus scumreadable or w/e.. oh well :)

One thing I feel like I need to make clear is that me scumreadingi Xiahou is not because of his low number of posts alone. The slight activity fall off... well duno where this is coming from. Seeing all mafia buddies getting killed so quickly could certainly kill motivation which could explain Cuth or Xia's slight drop in postings... on the other hands I slightly scumread Barto because he got more active because for some being solo triggers a WIM 'now I'm gonna show them and own this game' reflex... So the change in activity is overall NAI in my eyes... only difference would be if the content of posts reflected a dropping motivation which would be unusual for town after being so sucessful to match with declining number of posts but I don't think that's the case on anyone here... well on Cuth it kinda fits I guess. He came in yesterday as well to announce he is there and then nothing. Perhaps saw he was in the PoE for many ppl and just essentially gave up? I hope I'm wrong on that read cuz then he just makes us suffer through endless days of lynching down PoE but duno.

DP's got the fatigue as well. I think town can lose WIM if there's nothing for them to do, or if they feel a lack of control.

I’ve been in a similar position to cuth recently, haven’t had much WIM in general with the game state being what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game use PoEs as aggressively as this one before, it’s kind of weird. I think overall though Slaan doesn’t need to be a suspect right now, he’s reacted authentically to the pressure. His currently proposed PoE is fine by me.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:07

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:09

DP's got the fatigue as well. I think town can lose WIM if there's nothing for them to do, or if they feel a lack of control.

Oh sure, again I'm not really reading any alignment off this (well I try to at least, there is a little man sitting in the back of my brain yelling it's dp and he slipped and now he just chills until town completely destroys itself... it's an evil little man :()

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:11

It is still like 80 percent not counting turbos, iirc.

But the list of games as scum is probably 4 times that amount by now.

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads? https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/goethe.gif

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:17

Slaan shading Barto, mentions Cuth as being scumread. I think by Slaan, if I'm getting the context right. Though he didn't put Cuth in his list o scums earlier, just in the body.

I was referring to the ppl pushing him, not me thinking he was scum.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:18

Heh, after pizzas post about Xiahou....:

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla. Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim. Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

This is words. Now if I assume that when he busses he just votes ppl and we he goes after townies he feels compelled that he has to explain his push.... that fits with everything.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:27

Eh he stopped his ISO right before my best moment of the game, so no.

Ok, you got me, MVP points.

You sussing me is not the best part of the game https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/huepf.gif

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:34

K I'm live! So yea, the case on Cuth looks pretty good from pizza... wanted to ISO cuth as well (after I got my kill on Xia) but guess that's not really required any more...

My last 3 lynches would be Xia/Csargo/... Monty or Cuth... hope I won't ever have to decide between them. In my book the game ends with Xia.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 21:35

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads? https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/goethe.gif

Cus people don't trust him as town and lynch him early.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:37

Cus people don't trust him as town and lynch him early.

So him still living here... https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/aluhut.gif

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 21:38

Cus people don't trust him as town and lynch him early.

Survival rate is separate from win rate.

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads? https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/goethe.gif

It's a bit like Dragonball Z: one day your power level is over 9000, the next it's over 9 billion and the whole universe is going to die.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:38

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads? https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/goethe.gif

Undermining credibility, a form of passive aggression.

Mate in one, Slaan?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:40

Then he does it again.

ok, yeah definitely. The computer announces mate now.

Slaan, you were the sith lord, you sneaky pete.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 21:40

Undermining credibility, a form of passive aggression.

Mate in one, Slaan?

I saw it as a joke, and nothing more. Don't think he was actually trying to undermine you.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:40

Undermining credibility, a form of passive aggression.

Mate in one, Slaan?

Really? How could this not be seen as a joke? https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/hammer2.gif

:p

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:41

Good ninja post dp ^^

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:45

I saw it as a joke, and nothing more. Don't think he was actually trying to undermine you.

DP-1 Kenobi, this time, we do it together.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:46

Slaancellor Paalpatine, Sith Lords are our speciality. :bow:

Slaan

10-14-2017, 21:48

From the dark site turn you must

https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/yoda.gif

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 21:50

You sussing me is not the best part of the game https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/huepf.gif

No I'm talking about my response to GH/Zack's push. I think if you're want to get into a meta thing with me, or to read me off a string of posts its that exchange. A lot of my scum/town finding abilities rely on being pushed, it's why I'm a stickler with consistency and progression on others, because I need that consistency or progression on me to help read pushes on me. It's the reason I pushed Rein and a big part of the reason I pushed you.

While shooting down a faulty push isn't AI because I'm able to objectively pick apart a bad push as either alignment. I mean solely for me when town a push and response to my response is a big part of my reads. If someone has a good solid case against me where I can objectively see if they have a point and if I was reading their case against anyone else whether I'd follow or not, I'll not "give up" as it were, but I'll accept the read and would be fine with the lynch because I'm a hindrance to solving.

Usually when there are good cases against me as town it's because I went outside my comfort zone or didn't get any decent suss against me and couldn't genuinely develop reads. This game that didn't happen and I objectively think I had a good game, unlike in Wild West, X-Com or the dragonmount game.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:51

From the dark site turn you must

https://www.civforum.de/images/emo/i/yoda.gif

The dark side surrounds the Slaancellor. I sense a plot to destroy the Town circle.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:53

I'm not letting go of Master Xiahou. His fate will be the same as ours.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:55

Fred, I don't remember what you said about Slaan's reads vanishing. Are you sure they weren't just progression the opposite way?

Can you find that for me?

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 21:58

Fred, I don't remember what you said about Slaan's reads vanishing. Are you sure they weren't just progression the opposite way?

Can you find that for me?

What do you mean? I confronted him about his inconsistency and his defense was him saying on Winston he was sheeping you and forgot, and with me he was misusing the term Lock clear, and with Monty...I don't really know what he's claimed, it felt like a non-answer.

The thing is I guess they all could possibly true together but just feels unlikely for a player of his ilk. So if there's a plausible scenario it comes down to tone under pressure, and aside from his post against you, his posts against me have felt relatively good. So I'm not sure what to do with it.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 21:58

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:01

What do you mean? I confronted him about his inconsistency and his defense was him saying on Winston he was sheeping you and forgot, and with me he was misusing the term Lock clear, and with Monty...I don't really know what he's claimed, it felt like a non-answer.

The thing is I guess they all could possibly true together but just feels unlikely for a player of his ilk. So if there's a plausible scenario it comes down to tone under pressure, and aside from his post against you, his posts against me have felt relatively good. So I'm not sure what to do with it.

If it were me in his shoes, I'd be having the time of my life.

Don't assume too much about how he'd be feeling as scum. Everyone has been suggesting scums have to be hiding after the collapse, they gotta be like Cuth or Xia and just afraid to show their faces.

How does that win, if they weren't lock town before the collapse?

And if that assumption doesn't hold true for that specific player, then it's a bad read.

I'll go looking.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:02

Yea, never gonna use the term lock clear anymore. At times I think I just said it to sell a point I saw as very towny... rip me I guess on that front, and well learned.

Regarding Monty: I didnt like Monty D1 thats true. But now that Zack has flipped this looks alot better in my eyes... He is not locked by any means, except chox (and I guess pizza, cuz that would be some srsly disgusting play if he was ^^) noone is. Having now reached well into D2 in my reread I've gotten concerned again because he has GH/Zack as 'only one of them can be mafia, they are never partners' or somesuch.... and then goes after GH over Zack even though he sussed Zack on D1 rather strongly.. at this point I'm just trying to make an ordered list of ppl from least scummy to most scummy and hope to get ppl to vote with me on the most scummy ppl. There arent any obvious slam dunk scum cases for anyone around, at least not that I can see so I have to deal in shades of grey and obviously figuring this it out is hard. Which is to no suprise since anyone on me is wrong and outside of that no one seems to be sure about much so yea. Maybe me bringing up town points on ppl I prev looks scummy looks bad from youru perspective or the other way around but I'm not going to tunnel any read at this juncture...

Regarding Winston: iirc I even said in the post where I put him as one of my top points that pizza's case on him was good so I'm good with the read... and before pizza made that case I even said that I'm still pretty null on Winston if I'm not mistaken... can't look it up rn because I want to be through with my reread before the day is over (obviously) and I have to still do some grocery shopping + EoD/night is coming up in game I'm hosting so yea..

This is where he addresses all 3. With Monty he just says he changed his mind on his suss of him, but he never really progressed that much on him leading up to yesterday when he lock cleared Monty. Which again, is part of the lock clearing problem, but he also used the F5 phrasing which was clunky.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:07

Because I wouldn't lynch Monty before I lynch you because of how you've treated Monty so forgivingly this phase (lock clearing) despite some serious suss you threw down on him Day 1 and that you said in the first 30 pages of your re-read that he looked good, when he in fact he didn't, he didn't look bad exactly either.

So what am I to think?

If Town Slaan is rereading, why would Town Slaan over credit Monty for his Body of work day 1, while also forgetting that some of his strongest suss in the game was on Monty. Is there a reason for Town Slaan to do this?

If Scum Slaan is "re-reading" why would Scum Slaan over credit Monty for his body of work day 1 and leave out that some of his strongest suss was directed towards him? I can think of a couple of reasons for this.

Basically every negative point for Monty in my ISO is a negative point for you and since you started with more negative points already it means I'm not going to be able to properly assess Monty.

Now, obviously I'm not fully sold on your lynch today, there's been bad stuff but some fair points, and I don't know if scum allows himself to become a target at this point in the game. At least this is what I would do, but I'm also not that good as scum so.

It's a fair point that you would remember your reads as scum, but I just don't like the idea that such a high town read would just be sheeping without saying anything, especially when it was shared by almost the entire thread. That means I can't trust your reads as town and if I can't trust what you're saying as town, what's the point of having you around?

Winston isn't the only issue, you lock cleared me, you hard sussed Monty, and these weren't consensus reads at the time so there was no sheeping going on. Ok so we can write off one as your misuse of the term lock clear. However, the fact that you accused Monty hard in a long involved post, and just sort of forgot about it just doesn't ring true to me. It wasn't an adoptive read, it was a progression. You can't possibly have the same excuse that you have for the Winston slip.

For reference. I think this is the post about forgetting townies.

Something has to change, posts have to push them to null or they need to slip or something for town reads to go away.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:08

This is where he addresses all 3. With Monty he just says he changed his mind on his suss of him, but he never really progressed that much on him leading up to yesterday when he lock cleared Monty. Which again, is part of the lock clearing problem, but he also used the F5 phrasing which was clunky.

There needs to be an adequate progression from null to lock clear, or even if Monty was suspect.

Instead it appears more like pocketing Monty.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:09

Good ninja post dp ^^

And pocketing Dp, btw.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:14

The bulk of my case was based on the passive aggression post, bantering with the dead scums, and arguments against Zack being scum. Plus tinfoils about crumbs that didn't pan out.

I didn't think the reads progression was AI or I didn't take it into account, since he bussed a couple times.

The only progression I have an issue with is Monty

With Winston, when he defended himself against you in his flowery post, he said as scum he wouldn't have killed Winston cus he had a null read on him, when he had Winston as top tier town N1. It gets into WiFOM because why does scum just forget things like that, but why would town basically fabricate a read that they forget later.

With me it just felt odd that he lock cleared me and then put me in his POE. I don't have an issue with anybody putting me in POE but if you lock clear me I need a reason for the retraction, and there was nothing between the lock clear and the retraction to indicate that he had reason to. His point is that he re-read the first 30 pages of the game and hadn't finished, but he had DP and Monty as lock, or near lock when any reason for locking either of them hadn't happened yet either.

Not even to rehash the spew inconsistencies.

The best way to get into my blindside is to respond to my good points like I would respond to good points, which he did for me with a multiple of my issues. So I have a flaw in my meta lol.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:15

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:17

There needs to be an adequate progression from null to lock clear, or even if Monty was suspect.

Instead it appears more like pocketing Monty.

Yeah this is what I said at the time, it felt more like appeasing a WIM Monty then a legitimate read. It's why I keep nitpicking his Monty read to death to the detriment of the thread I think. Day 1 where Monty suggest the Tie, Slaan pounces the fuck out of him for it, but with little difference in the game state wrt Monty he final 5's him during day 4.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:18

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:18

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:20

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

Why would I do X as scum is becoming worn out.

I'd always go Csargo after you, not Xia.

If someone really really thinks it must be Xiahou, final 4 seems fine. I'll be spinning in my grave if he flips town for the loss.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:21

Either way I think a town Slaan just accepts the lynch and scum or town Csargo pushes the Slaan lynch.

The interesting thing is that they're both pushing Xia. I mean Monty is contesting the read as well so (shrug)

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:22

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

See it's posts like these that scream town under pressure. Then again Wifom.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:23

Well I think I have said 'lock clear' to so many ppl that wouldnt have much of a PoE left if I ignored them all ^^.

Pizza falling for confirmation bias right now I think... well actually for a bit longer already. Like this was no way pocketing towards dp, why would I try to pocket over smth like that after I said that I still have some doubts about him in the back of my head... would be a bad move overall.

But I can make you guys a deal: Hammer me tomorrow but then promise me to lynch Xia after.

Also, the good news is that if he's consistently confbiasing both you and CSargo

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:24

See it's posts like these that scream town under pressure. Then again Wifom.

WIFOM.

Kill me, then kill blank, is not a worse position if it means people don't kill him as he suggested.

I wouldn't say hammer me, then lynch X as scum, same argument.

His defense is all wine by this point in the game.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:24

Slaan, a big issue I have with your defense is that it's a ton of self-meta.

You'd never crumb a vig as scum vig. Okay, that's plausible. You reacted like I had two heads to that. Probably a bridge too far on my tinfoil.

But, for a lot of other things, your defense has been "I'd never do that" and it's appeared something like three times by now to several different lines of attack.

At a certain point it's just so much WIFOM.

Well what other defence do I have. It's not like the points brought up are wrong, they are facts (like Winston). I agree that it looks odd and if I were in your shoes I'd probably also look at this and think its sus. There is no logic reason for the Winston thing for example, I didnt 'decide' to forget I had put him in town for a very short time before he got NK'd since it was a non issue after he NK'd and I didnt have to look at him. I didnt look at him at all this game which is why I had him as null until pizza's case which read good enough and since at the time pizzas other reads matched with mine I figured 'yea sure he can be town'... But since I didnt get there myself it wasnt in my mind.

The Monty thing I actually find a bit funny. Someone said to me during D1 that Monty would be player that would possibly the hardest to read... and they were correct. I'm not a big fan of how I flip flop about him but idk what else to do with him. I can't in good conscience just town read him and then ignore when I see smth scummy... same the other way around. Same thing happened with a few other ppl like Barto too I think.

If I have to get lynched for that than so be it, can't change it. I can't clear myself of that, the only I can do is tell you that Xia is most likely the last scum and hope you'll go there after you lynch me :).

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:24

Why would I do X as scum is becoming worn out.

I'd always go Csargo after you, not Xia.

If someone really really thinks it must be Xiahou, final 4 seems fine. I'll be spinning in my grave if he flips town for the loss.

inb4 Pizza Xia final 3

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:27

I think Monty's game is super good, but if you want to put Monty into town and lynch someone I cleared, as someone I perhaps mistakenly cleared, that's acceptable to me.

I even kept re-reading about Cuth, as he's suggesting he would totally collapse as scum in that position.

I think that's maybe true for him, but the dead wolf spew is too strong.

If that's wrong only you can decide in final 4. But I'd leave questions of super deep wolves until that lylo round.

Go for the more likely to be scum based on their behavior toward the dead scums scenarios, and vice-versa.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:27

Your game is impressive nonetheless and Csargo's is... suspect.

But the bit about Csargo not wanting to give a specific reason why Zack is scummy was a town point I was having trouble ignoring.

I keep going back and forth on which one of you two looks more likely.

I see arguments for why are you not a scum, but I'm not seeing the townieness except as effort and dedication to the game.

At a certain point, that's not enough, versus Xiahou's actual pressing on the wolves who are the most likely to influence the game, while you defended Zack and were basically forced to push GH.

Oh cmon, I was all in favor of the GH lynch just wanted to see what and if he'd type some more. Hell I started sussing GH on D1 in relation to a Logic mafia flip, don't take this from me. I'm sad I didnt get on Zack sure but GH was mine as much as anyone elses imo :(

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:28

Well what other defence do I have. It's not like the points brought up are wrong, they are facts (like Winston). I agree that it looks odd and if I were in your shoes I'd probably also look at this and think its sus. There is no logic reason for the Winston thing for example, I didnt 'decide' to forget I had put him in town for a very short time before he got NK'd since it was a non issue after he NK'd and I didnt have to look at him. I didnt look at him at all this game which is why I had him as null until pizza's case which read good enough and since at the time pizzas other reads matched with mine I figured 'yea sure he can be town'... But since I didnt get there myself it wasnt in my mind.

The Monty thing I actually find a bit funny. Someone said to me during D1 that Monty would be player that would possibly the hardest to read... and they were correct. I'm not a big fan of how I flip flop about him but idk what else to do with him. I can't in good conscience just town read him and then ignore when I see smth scummy... same the other way around. Same thing happened with a few other ppl like Barto too I think.

If I have to get lynched for that than so be it, can't change it. I can't clear myself of that, the only I can do is tell you that Xia is most likely the last scum and hope you'll go there after you lynch me :).

The Monty issue is that you jump on him, then never really mention him as a possibility ever again, in fact you push him way up your reads list, post GH and Zack flip.

If I'm town, and I suss the fuck out of Monty that hard, regardless of if Monty is town or not, I want it addressed at some point. The leaving it lie is what makes me feel it's more likely the interaction is scum SLaan jumping on an attackable town Monty post rather then Town Slaan catching a scummy Monty post.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:28

If I have to get lynched for that than so be it, can't change it. I can't clear myself of that, the only I can do is tell you that Xia is most likely the last scum and hope you'll go there after you lynch me :).

If it were me, I'd erase everything I've done all game and shake my brain like an etch a sketch in final 4.

But I still have issues voting Xiahou that day. I guess if I somehow made it there (why?) with dp (why?) and fred (why?).

That's about it.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:30

Oh cmon, I was all in favor of the GH lynch just wanted to see what and if he'd type some more. Hell I started sussing GH on D1 in relation to a Logic mafia flip, don't take this from me. I'm sad I didnt get on Zack sure but GH was mine as much as anyone elses imo :(

Did you say something more than "if Logic flips mafia, GH looks bad"?

Did you push him after that in any way?

Or did you agree with him that dp101 looked bad for the cfd, after logic flipped?

That's where you don't get credit, Slaan.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:31

In addition to not seeing a towniness... I actually feel like you don't want to see it because you sussed me all game. I probably made a mistake when describing my mafia meta to you because you tinfoiled on me basically fromt he start (everyone that looks good on Logic received a lock town expect me who you had at 98% and even after I made other posts you loved you still left me there)...

I mean I'm not ever 100% towny, never ever. But I think that this point you are tunneling on the sus you had on me all game and try to fit everything to match it kinda. Can't do anything about that but thougth to mention how I see this push of yours rn ^^

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:32

Calling who the mafia are but not pushing them is not credit.

You give Xia no credit for actually voting wolves when they weren't consensus and it's a dangerous vote, but give yourself credit for calling GH as scummy if Logic flips and then pushing the same narrative as him when Logic did flip.

If you are town and coincidentally happened to do this then yeah, credit. Won't take it away.

But that looks more like PIS than solving.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:32

WIFOM.

Kill me, then kill blank, is not a worse position if it means people don't kill him as he suggested.

I wouldn't say hammer me, then lynch X as scum, same argument.

His defense is all wine by this point in the game.

Wasnt intended as a defence, was me telling you guys to please kill Xia because it will be me revolting in my grave when the game ends in a mafia victory because Xia survived :)

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:33

In addition to not seeing a towniness... I actually feel like you don't want to see it because you sussed me all game.

I do want to see it, man.

I wanted to see it so badly I put suspicious posts of yours as townie for you without knowing your meta.

I have the opposite desire, I wanted to town with you so bad this game.

And I still do, but your defenses are all coming up shallow to me.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:34

Wasnt intended as a defence, was me telling you guys to please kill Xia because it will be me revolting in my grave when the game ends in a mafia victory because Xia survived :)

Ok.

If you flip town, he's on the table. Not that it matters, I'll be right there with you.

He can reasonably fake it. It's not a lot of content to fake, after all.

But it looks super good to push Zack when he did. I wouldn't be convinced unless the POE was wrong.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:36

And to cover our ass,

Slaan are you also on board with Csargo being in that 3 person POE?

If it was him all along I don't want him getting away.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:36

The Monty issue is that you jump on him, then never really mention him as a possibility ever again, in fact you push him way up your reads list, post GH and Zack flip.

If I'm town, and I suss the fuck out of Monty that hard, regardless of if Monty is town or not, I want it addressed at some point. The leaving it lie is what makes me feel it's more likely the interaction is scum SLaan jumping on an attackable town Monty post rather then Town Slaan catching a scummy Monty post.

From my perspective he started looking better and better during the second half of D1 (which I think I've mentioned... I'm pretty sure I've posted smth like 'This looks good though monty so I'm moving you up a bit' or smth) and after GH/Zack flipped the interactions I thought scummy on D1 looked towny now iirc.. so yea, didnt feel like mentioning him much after that. Also figured the game would end if we just lynched down our old PoE so I didnt bother reading Monty again because thats.. like Monty is posting way too much. That changed ofc after the last couple of mislynches where I was forced myself to reread the thread... yep

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:42

Just to be clear, if Monty is scum we are officially letting him go now.

I am okay with this.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:42

If it were me, I'd erase everything I've done all game and shake my brain like an etch a sketch in final 4.

But I still have issues voting Xiahou that day. I guess if I somehow made it there (why?) with dp (why?) and fred (why?).

That's about it.

Well in this case I hope more ppl will be with me on Xia tomorrow than ppl will be with you on me ^^

Did you say something more than "if Logic flips mafia, GH looks bad"?

Did you push him after that in any way?

Or did you agree with him that dp101 looked bad for the cfd, after logic flipped?

That's where you don't get credit, Slaan.

Yea that dp did look bad at the time, this CFD comment was super weird from my perspective. I mean I sussed GH, I didnt have him 100% always scum.. I was even in favor of killing Chox D2 over him I thought him even more likely to be scum and I'd rather mislynch a quiet towny such as Chox over a strong towny that might just not be in the game such as GH. I still made several cases on him D2 iirc, like my pet theory that referenced the Wild West Game, his motivation after having randed like 80% scum in the last months and how he wasnt in the game which for him was way off and bothered me. If you don't give me credit for that... well it makes me sad but I guess I cant change it ^^

Btw arguing against 2 ppl that have been on me for days is quiet exhausting ^^

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:44

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:44

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:45

Btw arguing against 2 ppl that have been on me for days is quiet exhausting ^^

Heroic effort on your part regardless of alignment on a new forum.

A lot of folks show up and they just don't do anything, and drop out and have to be replaced.

Very refreshing not to need a replacement in a game for once.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:47

I do want to see it, man.

I wanted to see it so badly I put suspicious posts of yours as townie for you without knowing your meta.

I have the opposite desire, I wanted to town with you so bad this game.

And I still do, but your defenses are all coming up shallow to me.

I mean I don't see how I could defend myself differently ^^. Feel free to tell (or after the game) what you'd do in my shoes here.. I've accepted that I'm probably getting mislynched and mainly just post here to try to get ppl to maybe vote Xia at some point even if I were to die... (and because I don't have much else to do till night result is announced)... there isnt much more for me to do in my eyes :)

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:47

Slaan, you'd be okay with Xiahou/Csargo as two of the lynches remaining?

Just to clarify.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:48

Ok.

If you flip town, he's on the table. Not that it matters, I'll be right there with you.

He can reasonably fake it. It's not a lot of content to fake, after all.

But it looks super good to push Zack when he did. I wouldn't be convinced unless the POE was wrong.

Nice. Then just hammer me tomorrow so I don't have to worry anymore ^^

And to cover our ass,

Slaan are you also on board with Csargo being in that 3 person POE?

If it was him all along I don't want him getting away.

Oh yea, Csargo shouldt be getting away.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:49

Just to be clear, if Monty is scum we are officially letting him go now.

I am okay with this.

Yep. Well, if you have to mislynch me that is, we might get him if you and fred did a 180 but that seems unlikely^^. I hope a night kill fails somehow and we get another lynch...

Also imo important: Do not sleep in F4. I can totally see a mafia one shot vig holstering the entire game, it's what I'd do.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:50

From my perspective he started looking better and better during the second half of D1 (which I think I've mentioned... I'm pretty sure I've posted smth like 'This looks good though monty so I'm moving you up a bit' or smth) and after GH/Zack flipped the interactions I thought scummy on D1 looked towny now iirc.. so yea, didnt feel like mentioning him much after that. Also figured the game would end if we just lynched down our old PoE so I didnt bother reading Monty again because thats.. like Monty is posting way too much. That changed ofc after the last couple of mislynches where I was forced myself to reread the thread... yep

But you completely remove him from you POE while including me. I can objectively see where you'd see where Monty and I are at the same level, but I don't see why with the suss you'd discount my spew over his process, esp, after Lock clearing me (I know you use lock too much, but at the time I didn't know) The issue with Monty is still valid imo. It's not something that's like is defensible so it's kind of unfair to keep harping on it, so I apologize, I was just sort of reiterating my read to Pizza.

(Shrug)

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:50

I mean I don't see how I could defend myself differently ^^. Feel free to tell (or after the game) what you'd do in my shoes here.. I've accepted that I'm probably getting mislynched and mainly just post here to try to get ppl to maybe vote Xia at some point even if I were to die... (and because I don't have much else to do till night result is announced)... there isnt much more for me to do in my eyes :)

Process.

I'll tell you in postgame how a scummy looking game can be read townie when you're townie. Don't have enough time left unless someone doesn't shoot me tonight.

I was in an endgame once with a guy who had pushed on scums, and a guy who pushed the wrong people a lot, and was suspected a lot.

Process is what helped me see he had real townie thoughts while trying to solve, and the other guy was just clearing hurdles.

Got both terms as part of my town solving method ever since that game over a year ago.

Your process is iffy.

You can look scummy and be a townie, but with a bad process like dropping reads or being inconsistent, having a defense of "I wouldn't do that as mafia", is effort, but still just clearing hurdles with a bad process.

I can't fix your process if it looks scummy but isn't, i can only identify if the process looks wrong to me.

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:51

Yep. Well, if you have to mislynch me that is, we might get him if you and fred did a 180 but that seems unlikely^^. I hope a night kill fails somehow and we get another lynch...

Also imo important: Do not sleep in F4. I can totally see a mafia one shot vig holstering the entire game, it's what I'd do.

lol I never said MOnty is in my town core. I would put Monty squarely in my POE, the problem is addressing him with you around would just break my brain. Monty is literally in the exact same spot he's always been for me but with you preventing his lynch.

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 22:53

The whole Slaan case is draining, because much of it on Slaan's process or potential slips makes sense, and it fits the POE...

Here's a bit during N3, before Pizza flipped on Slaan. Slaan since mid-D1 was the "echo". Could read either way. Could be scum playing it safe, or it could genuinely be Slaan half-sheeping because Pizza has picked up so much slack for the Town.

Even analyzing the kill can go either way for WIFOM.

Oh shit reinoe lock town

Is there an echo in here, slaan? :P

Luv u Slaan. Thanks for playing here. It's been a pleasure.

Whatever. Hopefully something good is about to happen; I have to monopolize the discussion for just a moment.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:54

Guys, I have just one more thing I want to say.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:54

This can be the biggest feather in Monty's cap. Earned, imo.

Again, this is why Xiahou's plan doesn't work if he's scum. He's not going to gain addition pylons town points, and even if a pizza guy argues in his defense he still gets lynched.

It was never a winning plan, gentlemen.

Unless his plan is to be a townie and lynch scums.

With the way he is playing there is, in my eyes, never a winning strategy available. If I don't have progression, thoughts or reads from someone that posted less than 1 post / day I can't let them live till the end no matter what. It's not enough to townread them as every vote can be easily faked. We started with 17 ppl or smth, his one vote on Zack is rather meaningless at the time, it wasnt deciding anything, it was even (at least I thought so at the time) highly unlikely that a Zack wagon would be around towards EoD... how often does the top poster D1 get a wagon on him midday that remains till he gets lynched, that never happens...

In regards to monty: Yea, he can have this one if it comes to that. Also a reason I want to push Xia over for example Monty... Loosing to monty feels good. Well not good but deserved. Loosing to someone with 7 posts will just kill me inside.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:54

If I die tonight...

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 22:55

I still posted 600 times this game.

Good Luck!

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:56

I really hope they pull a fast one and kill me so I don't have to do this anymore

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:56

Heroic effort on your part regardless of alignment on a new forum.

A lot of folks show up and they just don't do anything, and drop out and have to be replaced.

Very refreshing not to need a replacement in a game for once.

Yea something I found really suprising here and on MU. We never have subs where I come from (which results in the occational modkill sure) but having the option here seems to encourage ppl to just sign up and not show from the start or being bothered with the setup around D1 or getting pissed at smth (both happened in the orchestrated orchestrated chaos game... was really making me sad). So also thanks for me at everyone for sticking around :)

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:58

Yea something I found really suprising here and on MU. We never have subs where I come from (which results in the occational modkill sure) but having the option here seems to encourage ppl to just sign up and not show from the start or being bothered with the setup around D1 or getting pissed at smth (both happened in the orchestrated orchestrated chaos game... was really making me sad). So also thanks for me at everyone for sticking around :)

You should totally kill me if I'm scum, imagine how much WIFOM fun that would be.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 22:59

But you completely remove him from you POE while including me. I can objectively see where you'd see where Monty and I are at the same level, but I don't see why with the suss you'd discount my spew over his process, esp, after Lock clearing me (I know you use lock too much, but at the time I didn't know) The issue with Monty is still valid imo. It's not something that's like is defensible so it's kind of unfair to keep harping on it, so I apologize, I was just sort of reiterating my read to Pizza.

(Shrug)

https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/hmm.gif is correct. Idk anymore my exact reasoning behind everything I did days ago... wasnt this at a point where I'd reread only half the thread? I don't recall, doesnt matter now anyway. Kill me then kill xia and the game ends. Or kill Xia and the game ends a days earlier.

Boy do I hope now that Xia is actually the last mafia after all those posts https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/ziel.gif

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 22:59

lol if you're scum,

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:00

lol I never said MOnty is in my town core. I would put Monty squarely in my POE, the problem is addressing him with you around would just break my brain. Monty is literally in the exact same spot he's always been for me but with you preventing his lynch.

I still don't quite get this argument but we had this discussion before ^^

Sooh

10-14-2017, 23:01

Ok, so, somebody had a tantrum and left us again last night.

*shakes head*

But we will find a winner in this tournament!....eventually...

Anyway, pairs have been reshuffled and your friend who left was:

Fredwood,

You are Magnus Carlsen.

http://im.rediff.com/sports/2013/nov/09magnus4.jpg

As the current world champion with placements not only in chess tournaments but also in "World's Sexiest Men" lists, you enjoy life to the fullest. You are also known for your sore attitude when losing games. Really, Magnus, that shouldn't be necessary! Your current rating is 2827.

You are a Vanilla Town.

https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1508104800.png

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:02

Slaan, you'd be okay with Xiahou/Csargo as two of the lynches remaining?

Just to clarify.

yep

Process.

I'll tell you in postgame how a scummy looking game can be read townie when you're townie. Don't have enough time left unless someone doesn't shoot me tonight.

I was in an endgame once with a guy who had pushed on scums, and a guy who pushed the wrong people a lot, and was suspected a lot.

Process is what helped me see he had real townie thoughts while trying to solve, and the other guy was just clearing hurdles.

Got both terms as part of my town solving method ever since that game over a year ago.

Your process is iffy.

You can look scummy and be a townie, but with a bad process like dropping reads or being inconsistent, having a defense of "I wouldn't do that as mafia", is effort, but still just clearing hurdles with a bad process.

I can't fix your process if it looks scummy but isn't, i can only identify if the process looks wrong to me.

Wait am I not being read because of that bad process? How can I then clear myself from that by now showing process? I mean for one I thought I did after I had completely reread the thread and two it doesnt invalidate the inconstistence that happened earlier...? But sure, lets talk after the game. Isnt important now anyway I think

Dp101

10-14-2017, 23:02

Can't say that that was unexpected.

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 23:04

You should totally kill me if I'm scum, imagine how much WIFOM fun that would be.

Jesus, famous last words.

Can't say that that was unexpected.

What is it?

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:05

The whole Slaan case is draining

Try being me in this situation!

Here's a bit during N3, before Pizza flipped on Slaan. Slaan since mid-D1 was the "echo". Could read either way. Could be scum playing it safe, or it could genuinely be Slaan half-sheeping because Pizza has picked up so much slack for the Town.

Even analyzing the kill can go either way for WIFOM.

I don't think I've overly sheeped pizza? Only thing I hard sheeped him on was the Winston read because I really didnt want to read a high poster on my own and until like late game that was fine... other than that I think I was a bit contrarian like on Zack or now on Xia.. I think pizza and I just had mindmelds on most issues of this game :)

Fredwood

10-14-2017, 23:06

retracted.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:07

You should totally kill me if I'm scum, imagine how much WIFOM fun that would be.

lol if you're scum,

lol... hammer me so I can chat with Fredwood in graveyeard plz

Vote: Slaan

Sooh

10-14-2017, 23:07

Fredwood, please remove the contents of your post

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:08

You are dead, you gotta stop posting Fred.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:09

lol... hammer me so I can chat with Fredwood in graveyeard plz

Vote: Slaan

No Xiahou/Csargo vote?

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:10

Self-voting just drags the game out if you believe that both of those are valid suspects.

We could get them lynched before you and win if they're mafia.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:11

Yea, was only joke voting there.

Vote: Xiahou

Imo our best lynch https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/alter-man.gif

Csargo

10-14-2017, 23:11

Aw man I missed Fredwood's post, I bet it was juicy. Dang.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:11

Self-voting just drags the game out if you believe that both of those are valid suspects.

We could get them lynched before you and win if they're mafia.

Then lets do it!

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:11

Yea, was only joke voting there.

Vote: Xiahou

Imo our best lynch https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/alter-man.gif

I'd be with you on Csargo, I can't follow you on this one.

That one was a strictly you suspect.

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:11

Aw man I missed Fredwood's post, I bet it was juicy. Dang.

Na was boring, smth about him likeing being punished and being in a BDSM club or smth https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/smily134.gif

Dp101

10-14-2017, 23:12

What is it?

The kill. Only non-Pizza target who has been consistently providing content and has no one suspecting them, and there's a continued fear of a doc that seems to be driving kills away from Pizza, so they seemed to be the most likely target.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:12

Csargo, hard claim now please.

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 23:13

Before you proceed, listen here.

I am lovers with Csargo. He can confirm. We have been lovers from the start; if one of us dies, we both die.

Choxorn assigned me a protect last round, which I used on him overnight. Choxorn can confirm.

This, among other reasons, was why I strongly opposed your crumbing case on Slaan, and why you don't push Csargo: 3x+ Inventor* and Mafia with 1x strongman. You don't add a Mafia lover to that setup. Lynch Csargo and you lose two townies, and the only toss-up there is that you won't lose a round with an even number of players.

*We don't need to know unless Choxorn wants us to

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:14

If there is a doctor they haven't saved anyone, even though every murder choice was anticipated.

At this point it just looks like strongman was meant to counter the joat doctor, bizarre as that seems.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 23:14

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:16

Before you proceed, listen here.

I am lovers with @Csargo (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=12337). He can confirm. We have been lovers from the start; if one of us dies, we both die.

Choxorn assigned me a protect last round, which I used on him overnight. @Choxorn (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=53365) can confirm.

This, among other reasons, was why I strongly opposed your crumbing case on Slaan, and why you don't push Csargo: 3x+ Inventor* and Mafia with 1x strongman. You don't add a Mafia lover to that setup. Lynch Csargo and you lose two townies, and the only toss-up there is that you won't lose a round with an even number of players.

*We don't need to know unless Choxorn wants us to

Lovers or Masons?

Lovers can be guilty-innocent.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 23:16

I think we broke him Monty...

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:16

I'd be with you on Csargo, I can't follow you on this one.

That one was a strictly you suspect.

I mean idk what the move here is. I think the odds of Xia being the last scum are like at least double that of Csargo... let me quickly make up some percentage to tell you how I roughly feel the odds of everyone being scum is:
0% its Chox (well 0.001%)
5% its between you or dp and we've been majorly bamboozelt
10% it's Cuth. Spew looks good towards him but what's coming from him is very lacking...
15% it's Monty
25% its Csargo
45% it's Xia

Yea.. thats sounds about right. So hm. I think I'll remain on Xia.

Montmorency

10-14-2017, 23:17

Lovers or Masons?

Lovers can be guilty-innocent.

Look at what we know about game mechanics.

Csargo

10-14-2017, 23:18

Lovers or Masons?

Lovers can be guilty-innocent.

We're lovers.

Dp101

10-14-2017, 23:18

Wait what on earth. So, lovers means that Csarg/Monty are clear. I know I'm clear. Chox is clear. Pizza is basically always clear. So, is it Cuth/Slaan/Xia?

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:20

Choxorn

10-14-2017, 23:20

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:20

Look at what we know about game mechanics.

You and the Csargo form a symbiant circle. What vig shot lands on one of you will affect the other.

Hmm.

I think that weakens town if he's mafia. Gives them an extra kill if the scum dies.... but then again, makes it even more likely a vig shot will kill a mafia.

But I'd still like to know if you guys actually know each other is town, or if you're just told the other dies when you do and that you're lovers.

That's an important clarification.

Askthepizzaguy

10-14-2017, 23:22

Monty, Csargo, do you know mechanically that the other is town or not?

Slaan

10-14-2017, 23:23

Now I got a question: Isnt a lover pair of town/mafia considered 3p here that only wins together and not with their respective alignments? That how it works where I'm from