Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Slaan]

I figured out who Slaan reminds me of: Schema. Some unique alias IDK, she only played in Representative Democracy here.

It was this post in particular:



Anybody?

If that's a low key question if I am that Schema: no. I've been using my nickname 'Slaan' for almost 12 years now (my prev nick SlannesH even longer) and I'm not one for alts.

[Slaan]

i remember thinking slaan's opening yesterday was weak

it still lined up with how i feel he can play as villager

his posts since them have also been underwhelming/going in strange directions/unnecessary shadingtypestuff

it still lines up with how i feel he can play as villager

e.g. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152969-Chess-Game-Thread-In-Play&p=2053761668&viewfull=1#post2053761668

... what? Do you know what my scumrange and townrange are and could you even tell what is in one and not the other? Have you read a scum game from me to make those reads? Sorry but this post feels very bad from my point of view. What do you think is underwhelming about or going in a strange direction? Who do I shade unnecessary? You linked post is me calling out Bart for apparently being Bart and playing like crap (no offence ;)), I think calling him out on it is necessary. And yes my opening is weak, I don't care for the game in RVS and I'm not looking to solve there. I try to get to know the ppl a bit so I can better remember their names going forward... Let me put this differently: Who didnt have a weak opening in the first 2 hours?

This post just feels empty despite there being many words... same as the long post about dp previously... whats up Cuth?

[Slaan]

I mean I don't think its scummy when I think about it but I kinda expect more from you? Or maybe it is, I only have the anni game in my mind where we played and I feel like you were more focused back then than you are now... might be mistaken though. Only thing I remember for sure is that I thought you are 3p for all the wrong reasons.

[Slaan]

1. GH
2. Csargo
3. Dp101
4. Pizza
5. Fredwood
6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
8. Zack
9. Cuthillius
10. Manasi
11. Slaan
12. Reinoe
13. Choxorn
14. Winston Hughes
15. Logic
16. Xiahou
17. Kagemusha

Any of the bolded people I'd consider suspicious. Probably throw WH in there for paranoia reasons as well, maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons.

Cool

Talk to me about why you think Pizza is mafia :). Also why have Choxorn and Xiahou under suspicion? Kinda seems like you focused (outside of pizza) on low posters or did their posts so far ping you as scummy?

[Cuthillius]

... what? Do you know what my scumrange and townrange are and could you even tell what is in one and not the other? Have you read a scum game from me to make those reads? Sorry but this post feels very bad from my point of view. What do you think is underwhelming about or going in a strange direction? Who do I shade unnecessary? You linked post is me calling out Bart for apparently being Bart and playing like crap (no offence ;)), I think calling him out on it is necessary. And yes my opening is weak, I don't care for the game in RVS and I'm not looking to solve there. I try to get to know the ppl a bit so I can better remember their names going forward... Let me put this differently: Who didnt have a weak opening in the first 2 hours?

This post just feels empty despite there being many words... same as the long post about dp previously... whats up Cuth?

no? i haven't read a single wolfgame from you, i'm just comparing it to when i have played with you, particularly anni

you just

are going in directions that... i don't expect and i don't think are the most productive, and i'm honestly not going to bother isoing you and quoting more

because it's a relatively thin read from my single read-through of this thread

and there's no huge reason i feel is making me want to or need to figure you out at this point

and... most people didn't have that weak of an opening? or at least felt more natural or, as is probably more applicable in the case, acted like i'm used to them acting, in that i've played with most of them at least multiple times

do you have a particular issue with me talking through a read of you/anyone else if i don't come to a firm conclusion at this point in the game?

[Cuthillius]

I mean I don't think its scummy when I think about it but I kinda expect more from you? Or maybe it is, I only have the anni game in my mind where we played and I feel like you were more focused back then than you are now... might be mistaken though. Only thing I remember for sure is that I thought you are 3p for all the wrong reasons.

anni i wasn't as sleep-deprived, it was also lategame of a giant mash with tons of information and players as opposed to a relatively small game on d1?

if that makes any tonal differences for ye

[Slaan]

Thing is, your post themselves arent 'good' in my eyes... they don't provide much info, they arent concise... it also seems like alot of talking with not much content (and maybe I'm also a bit bothered/not used to the one line comment kind of posts that you do ^^).

However I imagine a wolf!cuth to be more concise. To have some sort of point or agenda or direction you'd want to bring across when you post which seems to be lacking... which is probably a terrible reason to start townreading you... but here I am.

Regarding the anni I try not to think about it when making reads here. As you've said it was a way different situation (mash vs normal game here, lategame vs now early game, lots of mech spew in anni etc) so I'll try not to compare this game to the anni too much :)

[Cuthillius]

Thing is, your post themselves arent 'good' in my eyes... they don't provide much info, they arent concise... it also seems like alot of talking with not much content (and maybe I'm also a bit bothered/not used to the one line comment kind of posts that you do ^^).

However I imagine a wolf!cuth to be more concise. To have some sort of point or agenda or direction you'd want to bring across when you post which seems to be lacking... which is probably a terrible reason to start townreading you... but here I am.

Regarding the anni I try not to think about it when making reads here. As you've said it was a way different situation (mash vs normal game here, lategame vs now early game, lots of mech spew in anni etc) so I'll try not to compare this game to the anni too much :)

likewise

[Slaan]

cheeky. I thought I have lots of reads and reasoning behind it posted as well as trying to get others to comment :(

[Dp101]

2. i would have agreed with you in the past

but lissa in particular and a few others have reacted in a quite similar way as wolves

i do think it's... not bad at all for him

I understand the overall sentiment of this post, but I take issue with this portion of it. You know very well that I am not lissa, or "a few others", and personally, after playing with me for as many games as you have, I would think that you'ld know that I don't often do the expected thing. In particular, I really try and avoid getting heated as a wolf, because I feel it strays too close to the kind of emotional manipulation that makes me feel guilty, as opposed to the more fun gleefully lying about what I feel and why I feel it. Your first post is slightly accurate in that I can certainly imagine myself screwing around a little like that as a wolf, but overall I think I'd only do that at MU. After how fast I was caught as scum the one time I randed it on this website, I'm pretty sure that if it happened again, I'd be really frozen and clunky in my posting out of fear of that same kind of rapid collapse.

[Dp101]

I waited a while to respond to that post because I wasn't quite sure how to phrase my reply to it, or if I really needed to reply given that you seemed to have come to the right conclusion, but I feel better having more of my thoughts out there in general.

[Cuthillius]

I understand the overall sentiment of this post, but I take issue with this portion of it. You know very well that I am not lissa, or "a few others", and personally, after playing with me for as many games as you have, I would think that you'ld know that I don't often do the expected thing. In particular, I really try and avoid getting heated as a wolf, because I feel it strays too close to the kind of emotional manipulation that makes me feel guilty, as opposed to the more fun gleefully lying about what I feel and why I feel it. Your first post is slightly accurate in that I can certainly imagine myself screwing around a little like that as a wolf, but overall I think I'd only do that at MU. After how fast I was caught as scum the one time I randed it on this website, I'm pretty sure that if it happened again, I'd be really frozen and clunky in my posting out of fear of that same kind of rapid collapse.

yeah i know my point was more that i didn't think she'd react like that in a similar situation, but it did, ergo is possible for you

fair enough

that's kinda where i ended up at the end of the post, figuring you could and you definitely have the ability to, but is probably fairly unlikely given the context

[Cuthillius]

I waited a while to respond to that post because I wasn't quite sure how to phrase my reply to it, or if I really needed to reply given that you seemed to have come to the right conclusion, but I feel better having more of my thoughts out there in general.

thank you for your honesty

i was actually wondering about that just the tiniest bit

and i completely understand

i think

i hope

[Kagemusha]

@ Zack



Change from rvs vote to real vote based on seemingly real suspicion as indicated in the forthcoming posts:



This is what I know of Kagemusha's old town process. It is very Org from like 3 years ago, very rvs but intending to get the game rolling based off of that, as opposed to their being joke votes. The votes are random and paired with jokes but intended to put random pressure and hopefully hit a scum, limit the length of time of unserious votes and unproductive talk. This matches all of his process for a serious, non-tiny game where he's not playing very casually.



Lot of depth here. Kagemusha doesn't clear the hurdle when asked, he soars over it. That always gets you some town points.



Solving and pointed. I think Logic is in an uncomfortable position and can't really justify his Slaan read. So he made an oops here and Kage is all over it.



Vote for Slaan was not based on the game but was intended to put pressure there. Kage didn't find anything scummy about Slaan yet, and did see something odd about Logic. His votes, reasons, questions, and process is all in the green zone.

Can he fake this? Sure, he's under no pressure and he's one of the all time oldie greats at being a scum. Think he doesn't necessarily make a blunder I can see yet.

But, he's also town-telling enough to be put into town consideration, serious consideration.

It's only not higher because it can be hiding in a good defensible spot. I can't lock it in yet. Still I like what I see.

I feel dissected. Perhaps a cigarette yuo sexy beast?:sweetheart:

Reading through the night. I like my vote on Cuth the only weakness is that i do not know his playstyle. What Slaander is posting suggest towards reading Cuth´s initial ISO. Any other takes on Cuth?

[Slaan]

If that question was directed toward me please repeat it... I don't know what you are asking. My posts suggest what towards Cuth?

[Kagemusha]

If that question was directed toward me please repeat it... I don't know what you are asking. My posts suggest what towards Cuth?


Thing is, your post themselves arent 'good' in my eyes... they don't provide much info, they arent concise... it also seems like alot of talking with not much content (and maybe I'm also a bit bothered/not used to the one line comment kind of posts that you do ^^).

However I imagine a wolf!cuth to be more concise. To have some sort of point or agenda or direction you'd want to bring across when you post which seems to be lacking... which is probably a terrible reason to start townreading you... but here I am.

Regarding the anni I try not to think about it when making reads here. As you've said it was a way different situation (mash vs normal game here, lategame vs now early game, lots of mech spew in anni etc) so I'll try not to compare this game to the anni too much :)

I have bolded notions from your earlier post that seem to support my own analyze. The question per se was not aimed to you but to other players that have played with Cuth. Of course his personal input would be most appreciated as he seems to have not replied to my allegations directly at all.

[Slaan]

I'm off to work, cya all in like 12ish hours

[Dp101]

I'm off to work, cya all in like 12ish hours

10/10 x-post

[Slaan]

I have bolded notions from your earlier post that seem to support my own analyze. The question per se was not aimed to you but to other players that have played with Cuth. Of course his personal input would be most appreciated as he seems to have not replied to my allegations directly at all.

Ok got it :). Yea some others have said the same about Cuth's posts so far... duno if that's how he usually plays so I leave the interpretation to others for the time being.

[Slaan]

10/10 x-post

Seriously, 23min nothing then getting ninja'd :(. I'm famous for getting ninjad on my homeboard though so I'm used to it.... :D

[Slaan]

baibai now ^^

[Cuthillius]

hey dp

having a nice evening?

[Dp101]

hey dp

having a nice evening?

No, I'm swamped with homework and have a large test tomorrow followed by some SAT subject tests the next day, so I'm actually kind of stressed. How about you?

[Cuthillius]

No, I'm swamped with homework and have a large test tomorrow followed by some SAT subject tests the next day, so I'm actually kind of stressed. How about you?

ow eesh

tests on weekend? that's rough

i have a goodly amount of homework, but have been slacking and just making cookies and talking on discord

gl with the hw, hope the stuff goes well and you don't have to stay up too late

[Choxorn]

come to think of it, applies to csargo too

pizza going after the lowest hanging fruit he can find


Vote: El Barto

If you're not going to do anything except take side shots, you can die.

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto

:inquisitive:


Sheesh.... 25 pages already???

Vote: zack
For spamming out over 150 posts. :stare:

ATPG is a close second... but you can only vote for one.

Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

[Choxorn]

I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

[Choxorn]

Logic-

First few posts are just talking about video games, total fluff

First real post is this one, in response to Pizza calling him scummy:


I admit, I am bad at chess. Maybe mafia too. Not sure what you see that looks suspicious in the 5 (guessing) posts I've made.

Then more fluff

Some stuff about how he's confused by how Pizza's playing, which is odd, because talk a bunch and engage in weird roleplaying is what Pizza always does.

Then there's this:


I haven't played chess since about the time that avatar was made. So, a decade or so? I've never considered myself very good. I'm capable of beating my parents and


Hmm. Why do you get a feeling that no one else seems to?


Logic's 10-minute take:
DP is town. DP is not teamed with Pizza, or Zack.

Csargo and Pizza are not teamed. One could be a wolf, but I don't think both.

Pizza feels really weird from normal. I can usually understand him a little, but here, he feels like he is playing 9 moves ahead to my 4. Not sure if he's on my team or not. I stand by my "seat of the pants" statement from earlier.

Cuth jumps in with some slight shade at DP. Is he suspicious of DP?

Kage shows up with what looks like a lazy vote on Slaan. Possibly a joke, but I think there's a more than reasonable chance that Kage is mafia.

Reinoe is the current target of DP's ire, and he is voting for me, (full disclosure, that that vote isn't being counted because it isn't bolded)

His vote on me looks like it stems only from Pizza's accusation. Not sure if sheeping, or he has other reasons for voting for me.

[b]Vote: Kagemusha[b/]

I still don't like this post. Still just feels off, and voting Kagemusha for an obvious joke vote looks scummy to me. His later attempt to justify it seems like he's really grasping at straws:


One seemingly random vote for something very minuscule, and not related to the game? Yeah, I thought it was a tell. Especially since I don't see Slaan as a wolf.


I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.


Winston, this... looks odd. It sounds to me like a willingness to lynch pizza, but an admission that you know he's town.

And this post is just wishy-washy. And still feels off to me.


Just generally Logic feels very non-committal with his suspicions, is guarded with his language, never pushing anything he says too strongly so he has room to go back on what he said earlier, and a lot of his posts are pretty light on content.

Vote: Logic

Nxe7+

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (2): Csargo, Manasi

Cuthillius (2): GH, Kagemusha

Zack (3): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Winston Hughes, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Zack, Reinoe

Not voting (1): Cuthillius

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

[Manasi]

Morning, I haven't caught up at all.

Lol@csargo suspecting me.

[Csargo]

Cool

Talk to me about why you think Pizza is mafia :). Also why have Choxorn and Xiahou under suspicion? Kinda seems like you focused (outside of pizza) on low posters or did their posts so far ping you as scummy?

It just a gut thing at this point, in regards to pizza, I think there's decent potential for pizza to be mafia. I can see why people are town reading him though, he's playing very similarly to XCOM. I don't think it's the same though, so I have reservations.

This is what Manasi does as scum and probably as town.

I can't read El Barto well.

Choxorn for low posts, can't get a read on him. Same for Xiahou.

I feel like logic is different from XCOM, but I need to iso that game and see.

I'd much rather eliminate people with less posts this early in the game tbh. I can get a much better read on the non-bolded people going forward, less so with the others.

[Csargo]

Morning, I haven't caught up at all.

Lol@csargo suspecting me.

You started it. :tongue:

[Kagemusha]

It just a gut thing at this point, in regards to pizza, I think there's decent potential for pizza to be mafia. I can see why people are town reading him though, he's playing very similarly to XCOM. I don't think it's the same though, so I have reservations.

This is what Manasi does as scum and probably as town.

I can't read El Barto well.

Choxorn for low posts, can't get a read on him. Same for Xiahou.

I feel like logic is different from XCOM, but I need to iso that game and see.

I'd much rather eliminate people with less posts this early in the game tbh. I can get a much better read on the non-bolded people going forward, less so with the others.

Csargo. What do you think about Cuth?

[Csargo]

Csargo. What do you think about Cuth?

I don't see the reason to vote him, I'm not seeing what GH/you are. This is pretty standard Cuth imo, I don't see anything out of the ordinary from my skimming of the thread.

[Slaan]

I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

wolfy

[Slaan]

It just a gut thing at this point, in regards to pizza, I think there's decent potential for pizza to be mafia. I can see why people are town reading him though, he's playing very similarly to XCOM. I don't think it's the same though, so I have reservations.

This is what Manasi does as scum and probably as town.

I can't read El Barto well.

Choxorn for low posts, can't get a read on him. Same for Xiahou.

I feel like logic is different from XCOM, but I need to iso that game and see.

I'd much rather eliminate people with less posts this early in the game tbh. I can get a much better read on the non-bolded people going forward, less so with the others.

Ok thanks for the answer! :)

[reinoe]

wolfy
Oh I think so too.

Csargo feels like mislynch bait.

[Zack]

wolfy


Oh I think so too.

Csargo feels like mislynch bait.

:yes:

[Manasi]

zack who are we lynching

we've somehow already lost the day 1 tempo so i'm dying rn

[Dp101]

zack who are we lynching

we've somehow already lost the day 1 tempo so i'm dying rn

This is exactly how I’m feeling right now.

[Dp101]

Can’t believe there’s still another day until this phase is over. I’m glad that phases will become shorter later.

[Slaan]

Logic come play

[Winston Hughes]

choxy so conservative.

Where's the juice, choxy?

[Winston Hughes]

Manasi

How scummy does pizza look to you?

[Winston Hughes]

It just a gut thing at this point, in regards to pizza, I think there's decent potential for pizza to be mafia. I can see why people are town reading him though, he's playing very similarly to XCOM. I don't think it's the same though, so I have reservations.

Could you flesh this out at all?

Any kind of reasoning or examples of stuff that's pinged you could be useful.

[Winston Hughes]

The blowback confused, suss of Pizza for doing what he's doing feels almost concerted and deliberately obtuse to get the early discredit on him. The style is atypical, but I don't feel the content is atypical. (The one game I've played). Interesting how quickly the stance was backed off. I do have an issue with his town read of Rein, but will get into that later.

These suspicions still kicking?


Well, that was a completely normal reaction.

What was this referring to?

[Kagemusha]

I don't see the reason to vote him, I'm not seeing what GH/you are. This is pretty standard Cuth imo, I don't see anything out of the ordinary from my skimming of the thread.

I would have liked more pressure towards Cuth. With this miniscule amount of information i feel Logic is the best lynch. unvote and vote Logic

[Winston Hughes]

Three scenarios, ordered most-to-least likely by my estimation:

1) pizza is town and correct about Logic

2) pizza is town and wrong about Logic

3) pizza is scum

Above questions re. pizza are due diligence, in recognition that pizza is better at getting townread as scum than as town (esp. on D1).

[Csargo]

Could you flesh this out at all?

Any kind of reasoning or examples of stuff that's pinged you could be useful.

So far this game, besides the Chess RP, has been essentially a carbon copy of the XCOM game D1. It's just weird is all I'm saying, could just wait and see what Jowy/Logic flips. The RPing stuff bothered me as well, because it didn't seem all that insightful, just sort of in your face, far less good-humored than ATPG usually is idk. Just think his game feels off a bit to me.

[Winston Hughes]

unvote

Don't want Logic hammered tonight.

[Kagemusha]

unvote

Don't want Logic hammered tonight.

Why?

[Winston Hughes]

Why?

I'd like to hear more from some people before the flip.

[Winston Hughes]

My level of confidence in pizza's towniness and his read of Logic is a new sensation.

I want to prod at it before it's either confirmed or questioned by the flip.

[Winston Hughes]

So far this game, besides the Chess RP, has been essentially a carbon copy of the XCOM game D1. It's just weird is all I'm saying, could just wait and see what Jowy/Logic flips. The RPing stuff bothered me as well, because it didn't seem all that insightful, just sort of in your face, far less good-humored than ATPG usually is idk. Just think his game feels off a bit to me.

How did you feel about pizza in the XCOM game?

[Kagemusha]

I'd like to hear more from some people before the flip.

That sounds reasonable. Who are you most interested to hear from?Also can you help me out with Cuth's style of playing. Is he usually someone that focuses on the game or just riding along?

[reinoe]

I'd like to hear more from some people before the flip.
Which people?

[reinoe]

Three scenarios, ordered most-to-least likely by my estimation:

1) pizza is town and correct about Logic

2) pizza is town and wrong about Logic

3) pizza is scum

Above questions re. pizza are due diligence, in recognition that pizza is better at getting townread as scum than as town (esp. on D1).
What's the likely hood that pizza is scum and logic is town?

What's the likely-hood that pizza is scum and he's bussing his partner into the ground?

[reinoe]

zack who are we lynching

we've somehow already lost the day 1 tempo so i'm dying rn
Why did you ask zack?

[Montmorency]

What's the likely hood that pizza is scum and logic is town?

What's the likely-hood that pizza is scum and he's bussing his partner into the ground?

Pizza is a known busser, but given it's D1 and he's leading the bus, he and his partners individually don't get any advantage (since Pizza would have to die tonight).

This could be possible if Pizza is planning a 180 or the discovery of an urgent new wagon and abandons the Logic wagon. But it would happen so fast it would only be evident retroactively.

[Winston Hughes]

That sounds reasonable. Who are you most interested to hear from?

People who harbour suspicions about pizza. Anyone who's got them would do well to post them before eod.


Also can you help me out with Cuth's style of playing. Is he usually someone that focuses on the game or just riding along?

Despite having played a fair few games together I don't have a clear meta on Cuth's style.

The main thing I've found consistent between games is his inconsistency within each game. He'll be waxing hard scummy to me, then flip it right around with a moment of keen insight or a burst of plausible mindset progression. And then go right back to looking scummy again.

[Winston Hughes]

What's the likely hood that pizza is scum and logic is town?

Is there a subtlety here that I'm missing, or is this just poking fun at my stating the obvious?


What's the likely-hood that pizza is scum and he's bussing his partner into the ground?

I'd say no chance at all. The only way it could be true is if pizza's whole purpose this game was to one-up me in the bussing-for-victory stakes.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (2): Csargo, Manasi

Cuthillius (1): GH,

Zack (3): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Zack, Reinoe

Not voting (2): Cuthillius, Winston Hughes

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

[Winston Hughes]

Montmorency

Would you really lynch Zack today?

[Zack]

I'm alive. Trying not burnout myself on 72 hour days, and to avoid even more complaints about thread size.

I've come around to the philosophy that a full reads list on d1 is mostly pointless, but I am mentally preparing a tiered ordering on lynch preference (and no - it's not the same thing) and looking over some stuff.

Any questions you want me to answer, not directly related to the above two statements, shoot.

[Zack]

Vote count:

Pizza (2): Csargo, Manasi

Cuthillius (1): GH,

Zack (3): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Zack, Reinoe

Not voting (2): Cuthillius, Winston Hughes

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

Looks like plenty of people are still just clicking buttons.

[Winston Hughes]

I'm alive. Trying not burnout myself on 72 hour days, and to avoid even more complaints about thread size.

I've come around to the philosophy that a full reads list on d1 is mostly pointless, but I am mentally preparing a tiered ordering on lynch preference (and no - it's not the same thing) and looking over some stuff.

Any questions you want me to answer, not directly related to the above two statements, shoot.

I'm bored with being townread.

Tell me why I'm scum.

[Montmorency]

Montmorency

Would you really lynch Zack today?

I don't think it's happening, but if it somehow did it would be a reasonable lynch.

A couple of the low posters would also be fine in principle, but there's no impetus for it unless you strongly disagree with all the main candidates.

[Zack]

I'm bored with being townread.

Tell me why I'm scum.
I don't townread you and think you're still firmly in both ranges.

Maybe the biggest red flag would be you unabashedly sheeping Pizza like this -- I'd figure you're usually too paranoid for that sort of thing, as town.

[Winston Hughes]

I don't think it's happening, but if it somehow did it would be a reasonable lynch.

Would you summarize your reasons for me?

[Zack]

if it somehow did it would be a reasonable lynch.

Sir, please put down whatever you're smoking.

[Winston Hughes]

I don't townread you and think you're still firmly in both ranges.

Maybe the biggest red flag would be you unabashedly sheeping Pizza like this -- I'd figure you're usually too paranoid for that sort of thing, as town.

What's the towniest thing about me?

[Montmorency]

Would you summarize your reasons for me?

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.

El Barto is kind of a wasted lynch for now, but it would be neutral policy lynch. Similar for Manasi.

Choxorn is edging toward old-school scummy lurking and popping-up.

Xiahou has only his entrance, and as the guy who invited him to play I want to see him play.

For now that sounds like a Logic lynch by default, which as I said is a case Pizza argued well.

[Zack]

What's the towniest thing about me?
asking me these questions and asking to look into your alignment both ways

[Zack]

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.
This case makes sense only if you have literally never read a game I was in.

And that's not just me being cheeky.

[Montmorency]

This case makes sense only if you have literally never read a game I was in.

And that's not just me being cheeky.

For argument's sake let's say I never have. What then?

[Zack]

For argument's sake let's say I never have. What then?
I don't know what you want me to say here.

It's wrong because .... it's wrong. It's not correct, as a descriptor of my play here or of my meta in general. It's wrong on both counts.

[Winston Hughes]

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day.

I like this. It speaks to my residual doubt on Zack.

He's confounded his scum meta in way that's entirely plausible to me.

But if this is a new stage in his scumevolution, I can believe this might be a tell.


Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.

Is my connection with Zack just about our opening, or is there more recent evidence?

[Zack]

re: the logic wagon

I looked over Logic in this game, I looked over Logic in the XCOM game. I still maintain my stance.

It looks the same to me, or at the least not different enough to be concerning. In every game I've seen him in, I thought he seemed vaguely suspicious and he was town in all of them. He got votes and pressure plenty in XCOM, and was eventually mislynched. I re-read the dead QT to try and get some insight into why Pizza was so confident Logic was town. I didn't see anything except "he's pure" or some variation a few times, which doesn't help me, and quoting a random post and saying it's a good post.

I still think this is exactly the situation Jarema found himself in IKEA Mafia, which sooh also hosted -- Pizza (and visor in that game too) worked themselves into a frenzy tunneling someone who often posts awkwardly as town and is mislynch bait, I told them I thought Jarema was basically rand and they were reading too much into it, they told me I was an idiot, Jarema was lynched, Jarema was town.

I'm completely baffled how it's gotten so much steam and backing, other than the obvious reason that Pizza has yelled about it nonstop and people obey Pizza when he does that.

[Zack]

I like this. It speaks to my residual doubt on Zack.

He's confounded his scum meta in way that's entirely plausible to me.

But if this is a new stage in his scumevolution, I can believe this might be a tell.



Is my connection with Zack just about our opening, or is there more recent evidence?

Explain what you like about each of those points.

1. How do I feel "too free-spirited"
2. What trivial things am I committing to
3. What agendas am I gliding about

[Zack]

Also, anyone who is riding the train of "Logic is scum here, because he is noticeably and explicitly different from XCOM mafia, where he was town."

Read Barto in that game, read Logic in that game. Read them both in this game.

There's a stark difference in one of them, and it's not Logic.

[Montmorency]

No. The opposite if anything - typically a villager will put more effort into solving the game than a wolf who is merely giving the appearance of doing so.


* searching brain for any wolfy mechanics talk to discuss *


Hi Renata.

What's your approach to reading me going to look like this game? I don't think you ever town-read me in the only scum game you've seen of me so far, but elsewhere you've indicated you're not sure how anyone reads me. No need to worry about me using your answer to help me fool you, because if I'm a wolf I'll just kill you tonight anyways.


It does bother me a little the way GH canvassed for opinions on this, instead of giving one himself.


Visor thanking posts but not posting. Probably a wolf. Kappa.


I agree it is a weird interaction.


Bit weak, don't you think?

Vote: Winston Hughes

Winton Hughes, atheotes wolf team. Maybe Visor. Al spewed town or mafia, depending on your interpretation.

GH, Renata town.


I think defending someone, then quickly flipping on it to vote them as a way to defend yourself is not a good look. I'm sure Winston will try to handwave this away as a joke or something, but I don't really buy that.


Well start searching for something better, instead of waiting for it to drop out of the sky.

Your progression on Al just makes no sense to me. And your reaction to my accusation being to defend yourself with "it's okay because I don't care" doesn't exactly change my mind.


Ok, tell me your top 3 wolves and top 3 villagers Winston.


Exactly. The last quote especially downplays the fact that Winston defended Al and implied Renata should find a better vote, then suddenly voted Al when I said Winston sounded like he was defending a teammate. Then acts like that's not how it happened at all, it was just lolnotcaring (and while shitposting is a thing Winston does as town, particularly early on, not caring isn't).


What makes you think he is so towny?

This is a weird vote from you.


lol reaction tests. "I did something wolfy to see if you would call it wolfy. You've fallen into my trap, wolf!"

Won't be available until tomorrow probably. Go Falcons.


I don't see what about this warrants all the votes. I assumed he was just referring to reading the rules and shit. Who cares.


Yep, answering questions is something i simply can't do as a wolf. I've been caught.


Have to avoid the n1 kill somehow. :shrug:


I think the cases on Arakhor and Al Sips are bad. I don't have a strong read either way, but the things they are being accused of are not alignment indicative in my opinion, and if they flip wolf I'm going to shrug and call it dumb luck, rather than good hunting. Arakhor in particular I have mislynched for being awkward d1 (when I was a wolf).


re: visor as a wolf

His effort and seriousness levels will depend a lot on his teammates and the game state. He tends towards doing less and joking/trolling more than he would as town, but he's certainly capable of being serious and doing a lot as a wolf too. I don't think I ever bother trying to read him d1 in any case.


Yes. If I have to break the current 3-way tie I'd vote Dp101 without hesitation.


I also think Winston popping in to say only this is not a good look.

In that game, choxorn got plenty of flak for his behavior, and at best his posting was defended as being not bad, not "pure". He was only "cleared" after a pretty dedicated bussing of his teammate. I think bringing it up like this is a fairly disingenuous way of discrediting a townread of choxorn in this game, and I say that without really having an opinion on chox here either way.


It's like I think you're wolfy.


Voting someone for not answering some random question you stubbornly refuse to repeat :thumbsdown:


Why the hell are people voting for Al. Low postcount is not wolfy in and of itself.


Why haven't you?


He went right back to al, is this a serious question? lol


Looking forward to you vaguely throwing suspicion my way all game for ???.


So Al not even caring about self-pres doesn't affect your read in any way? You'd rather talk about DP changing his vote for 30 seconds somehow clearing him?


Al seems like an easy mislynch. I repeat my thoughts from earlier, he hasn't done anything actually wolfy and if he does flip wolf it's just dumb luck.


Like, are you suggesting Al and I coordinated that in wolfchat? What would be the point? I don't get why that would even bother you or why you would care.



Zack, here are your notable D1 posts from Swords and Sorcery. You seem different somehow. I think you probably are.

I have time to figure it out.

[Zack]

Zack, here are your notable D1 posts from Swords and Sorcery. You seem different somehow. I think you probably are.

I have time to figure it out.

What's different, and why is it bad for me?

You're just saying things about me with no substance or meaning behind them.

Why'd you choose that specific game?

[Montmorency]

I like this. It speaks to my residual doubt on Zack.

He's confounded his scum meta in way that's entirely plausible to me.

But if this is a new stage in his scumevolution, I can believe this might be a tell.



Is my connection with Zack just about our opening, or is there more recent evidence?

Opening and detachment, something about dancing. Not that it has to be identical, but your town-town exchanges D1 from the game I just referenced had more weight. It could still be low-key friendly banter and poking now, but it has my attention.

[Csargo]

How did you feel about pizza in the XCOM game?

I thought he was town in XCOM D1 iirc, with various amounts of paranoia throughout. Or at least my confidence that he was town was greater than 50% pretty early on.

[Montmorency]

What's different, and why is it bad for me?

You're just saying things about me with no substance or meaning behind them.

Why'd you choose that specific game?

You were non-sub town and it's structurally the most similar recent game.

I'll figure it out. I'm assuming I hit on something useful.

[Winston Hughes]

I'm completely baffled how it's gotten so much steam and backing, other than the obvious reason that Pizza has yelled about it nonstop and people obey Pizza when he does that.

I feel you.

But I came to a Logic scumread for my own reason: control.

What I've seen of townie Logic, he exercises little conscious control and just posts what he thinks.

This Logic feels like he's thinking about it.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, I'm isoing Logic here (alignment unknown) and comparing it with his iso in Pokemon (town).

The first thing I'll note is relative postcount: On D1 of Pokemon, he made 13 posts (count might be off by one or two) in a 48-hour phase. Here he's got 18 posts so far, 48 hours into a 72-hour phase, though I'll note that he hasn't been around the past day or so. So if we apply the ol' "sort by postcount, become mafia expert" test factoring in his baseline, Logic's actually a bit ahead of the pace here.

I'm not sure how much this test actually applies to .Org games, but I feel like the information couldn't hurt

---

The second thing I'll note is Logic's start to each - in general there's fluff/talking about his recent games/the theme of the particular game he's in.

Pokemon early posts:


That kind of lying sounds like scum to me!
Vote: Raith Kemmler

(just joking around about flavor, RVS vote)


Breadcrumbing is bad, because I am awful at it.

Did anyone else ever name their Poke-rival after a real world person they couldn't stand? My poke-rival was always named "Seth." I was in high-school by the time I started playing pokemon (4 years after its debut.)


I'd like to think so.

I've only played one game on this forum before, and I recognize a handful of the players from that game in this one. Unless you've played on the Playground in the last 3 years, no one has played a game with me before.

seirekhaan feels like he might be teamed with Csargo here. It's not much, but that is what I get out of this. Of course, this could be completely wrong, depending on their level of familiarity with each other. The Novice vote seems a bit forced.

Congratz! I just did the same almost 2 years ago. Still not completely unpacked. Several boxes of D&D books and the like.

This seems odd. I can't pinpoint why this seems odd, but I don't get this.

(the above post is a lot of him responding to various quotes from other people, click through for context)


Edited quote for profanity. Not sure if this is friendly profanity, but it doesn't feel like it to me. Maybe this feels this way because I am an outsider/interloper to this community, but I gotta say:

...I really agree with Champ.

2 minutes pass, and you proclaim the thread dead?


I've only seen Manasi play once, and I was convinced of her wolfiness right up to her role reveal... as a townie. She was super defensive on votes placed against her there too, so maybe this is more of the same. I just think I'm not a fan of the s***post mafia style she employs. Maybe it's the Kanye avatar that's pinging my radar instead.



I usually don't post more than a handful of times on day one, and rarely at all on Saturday/Sunday local. It definitely doesn't help me that this community moves far faster than I am used to.

(same as above)


I played precisely one game on the Org (French Revolution hosted by GeneralHandkerchief, where I somehow convinced a large portion of the playerbase that I was scum, when in fact, I was not.) Some players I recognize from that game in this one. The second sentence was an incomplete thought; there was supposed to be an additional clause in there, and I didn't notice it until you pointed it out to me. So, besides the one game here on the Org, all my mafia/werewolf experience is from the Playground.

Early posts this game:


GalCiv 3 has been my jam lately. It's almost hard to go back to CIV 5 after that. But, it should also be 1UPT, in my opinion. And only maybe make an exception for fleets.


I cut my teeth on Civ2 Fantastic Worlds, and eventually came to the conclusion that Alpha Centauri is the best CIV game. Barely played 3, and 4 was missing disks when I bought it, so it is immediately disqualified.


If you have some spare dinero, give GalCiv3 a shot. It's probably similar enough to the other dogs that you will enjoy yourself. An added feature is the starship designer, whether you are feeling creative or just want the same ship with lasers instead of missles.


If thats hiw you welcome newcomers, I guess I'm thankful that for my first game here you were unable to vote for me.

These were all posts made before Pizza's tunnel began.

Now, I'll grant that there's more game content in Pokemon, but if you take a closer look at the context Pokemon got off to serious mode pretty quickly, whereas this game was in screw-around mode for a while longer. Also, it's just Logic clearly talking about something he's passionate about with Slaan.

Speaking of Pizza's tunnel beginning, let's get to his first post on Logic:


Didn't you guys read the script I gave you? Terrible.

smh.

Also, Logic struggling already, sloppy opening moves. Very suspicious.

Logic's response:


I admit, I am bad at chess. Maybe mafia too. Not sure what you see that looks suspicious in the 5 (guessing) posts I've made.

Pizza's response:


If I were to put it to a vote, I wonder what the results would be.

1) Logic should be checkmated
2) Logic should deliver checkmate
3) Pat Buchanan

Be careful, I hear option number 3 got unusually popular that one time.

Maybe chads aren't the only thing that should be hanging.

Check!

Vote: Logic

So I'm not sure how much of this is roleplay, but I think Pizza's initial case on Logic is faulty simply because he's not taking into account the more relaxed context and atmosphere of this game as compared to the others (Pokemon certainly). It hasn't happened in a while (mostly because Pizza's been mafia here so often in the past year or so :tongue:) but I don't have to tell Pizza that he's put his blinders on in the past and barreled straight into a tunnel only to bash himself against a wall when that person ended up flipping town.

I don't think Pizza usually does it this early as mafia. Hopefully I'm just able to stop him from having it become one of Those Games this time and that's the end of that.

---

Anyway, moving on. Let's talk about the depth of Logic's reads.

The first thing I'll say is that Pizza has a point here. Logic's word count per post and the nuance of his stuff is down. Compare his early Pokemon reads:


The information was not incorrect; I've no particular feelings about it either way. I took his answer to be an assessment of his experience with me on the Playground. He gave a third party opinion on the question posed.

Had his interpretation of my clarifying statement been incorrect or incomplete, I would have had been complled to clarify that the answer in no way speaks for me. In general, if someone wants to answer a question asked of me before I get to it, and the answer is not wrong and needs no clarification, then I only clutter up the conversation by repeating their statement as an agreement, so I am usually fine with letting the statement from someone else stand as is.



I guess you could call me an oversharer. I can't let things stand at a simple miscommunication, and I feel the need to explain myself all the time, even when not necessary, such as the context of a game such as this. It's a bad habit of mine. I would say ask the other Playgrounders, but I think Cuthillius is the only one I have played with any frequency to be able to vouch for this behavior of mine.


My clarifying paragraph I think perfectly answers the question, but if this nex part doesn't completely clarify, then I think I am incapable of explaining it.

I have played with a small number of the non-playgrounders in a single game here on the Org. This is a condensed version of sentences 2, 3, and 4 of this quote:


What was a joke vote for Raith I cannot support with any evidence. He seems rather quiet, but I don't know if that is how he plays on D1, so he gets a pass for now. With what little I have seen from him, I give hime a slight wolf lean.

Both Seireikhaan and Montmorency feel like as good of targets as any, so I'm going to tie it up for the now.
Vote: Montmorency

To his reads here:


I haven't played chess since about the time that avatar was made. So, a decade or so? I've never considered myself very good. I'm capable of beating my parents and


Hmm. Why do you get a feeling that no one else seems to?


Logic's 10-minute take:
DP is town. DP is not teamed with Pizza, or Zack.

Csargo and Pizza are not teamed. One could be a wolf, but I don't think both.

Pizza feels really weird from normal. I can usually understand him a little, but here, he feels like he is playing 9 moves ahead to my 4. Not sure if he's on my team or not. I stand by my "seat of the pants" statement from earlier.

Cuth jumps in with some slight shade at DP. Is he suspicious of DP?

Kage shows up with what looks like a lazy vote on Slaan. Possibly a joke, but I think there's a more than reasonable chance that Kage is mafia.

Reinoe is the current target of DP's ire, and he is voting for me, (full disclosure, that that vote isn't being counted because it isn't bolded)

His vote on me looks like it stems only from Pizza's accusation. Not sure if sheeping, or he has other reasons for voting for me.

Vote: Kagemusha[b/]


One seemingly random vote for something very minuscule, and not related to the game? Yeah, I thought it was a tell. Especially since I don't see Slaan as a wolf.

I can see it.

But you can only do so much with what you're given. Once again, the overall thread context of this game is a lot different that Pokemon. Here, it's a lot of shouting, introductions to the .Org (far more first-time players here than in the Pokemon game), and Zack posting 20 times in a row, before we even get into Pizza's RP act.

In Pokemon, you have stuff like this being tossed around on D1:


Ok, I can't say that I necessarily agree with you or see the same things you see, but that might be due to different experiences. I do like that you're being thorough, and I think by keeping a steady line of questioning it'll ultimately make it really difficult for mafia to keep up. That being said, what I meant when I said I was looking forward to your analysis was that I was looking forward to seeing what you're getting from your line of questioning, and how you interpret the responses that you're given.


eh, I missed the 24 hour mark
Thoughts if/where I have them.

Actually contributing:
Raith Kemmler - Good posts, providing both responses to questions and unprompted thoughts
El Barto - fair mix of fluff and content, decent comments
Novice - +Good attempts to spark discussion and respond to the results -somewhat weird posts/interactions in regard to Sooh?
choxorn

Sooh - Talkative and friendly, fair amount of fluff giving her second highest post count. Quick to assume an unknown player is new(ish?) to the game? Mostly has responded to content directed at or that mentions her so far. reads post is okay.


GeneralHankerchief - "My first thought was that novice looks a little scummy for pushing everyone to talk about themselves, especially since he's not new here and didn't do this back when he was, my second was that Sooh and Viper probably aren't aligned. votes novice" ???


Not really contributing yet:
Jabbz - busy with moving
Cuthillius - weak disengaged handful of thoughts
Seireikhaan
Logic
Champ
Csargo - top poster of fluff and fireworks
Manasi - what
Montmorency
Autolycus - Posting about probably not having much to post for a while, nice.

No data:
BSmith

[B]Vote: GeneralHandkerchief


Of course, someone has to make sure there's something to check back in on from day 1 when day 3 comes around.

I'm not that bothered either with regards to who hangs, but I would like to get some information out of it. So let's chat.

Is your vote on me
A) A pressure vote
B) A random joke
C) A random crapshoot, where all things being equal, you might as well lynch a play style you're unfamiliar with
D) A serious vote based on scumtells hidden under your vest

If A or B, do you see it turning into C, or would you rather move the vote to another player? If D, could you open your vest?

Do you have opinions on any of the other kids on the lawn? Viper, Sooh, Raith and Cuthilius, for example?

---------

The conclusion of all this is that I think Logic is fine and posting in line with the general relative temperaments of the thread. Were he around and Pizza not death tunneling him over the past 24 hours, I'd expect a similar gradual uptick in content.

[Zack]

I feel you.

But I came to a Logic scumread for my own reason: control.

What I've seen of townie Logic, he exercises little conscious control and just posts what he thinks.

This Logic feels like he's thinking about it.
How much thought do you think went into his opening posts about video games, in that case? s

[GeneralHankerchief]

In other news, I feel like poking the bear a bit.

Vote: Manasi

[Winston Hughes]

1. How do I feel "too free-spirited"

I struggle to recall your main points of focus in the game so far.


2. What trivial things am I committing to

Many and varied.


3. What agendas am I gliding about

The main ones.

[Winston Hughes]

How much thought do you think went into his opening posts about video games, in that case? s

No need for thought there.

He's comfortable chatting.

[Zack]

GH, how good would you say you are at reading Manasi?

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Manasi

[Csargo]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm real tempted here.

[Zack]

I struggle to recall your main points of focus in the game so far.



Many and varied.



The main ones.
These points are all vague non-answers.

You already said you think I'm town, and I can't for the life of me understand why you're humoring Monty's silliness. If you are trying to provoke me and get into a fight, I'm not interested. Sick of it happening every game, and frankly annoyed at how you always seem to treat me like this and no one else in every game.

If you have specific concerns that are bothering you and you'd like addressed, I'll be waiting.


No need for thought there.

He's comfortable chatting.
But that was all he had done when Pizza starting calling for his head.

It's a tunnel he is adding stuff to with confirmation bias.

[Winston Hughes]

These points are all vague non-answers.

You already said you think I'm town, and I can't for the life of me understand why you're humoring Monty's silliness. If you are trying to provoke me and get into a fight, I'm not interested. Sick of it happening every game, and frankly annoyed at how you always seem to treat me like this and no one else in every game.

If you have specific concerns that are bothering you and you'd like addressed, I'll be waiting.

I don't. That's the point. If you're scum, you've taken it up a level.


But that was all he had done when Pizza starting calling for his head.

It's a tunnel he is adding stuff to with confirmation bias.

My suspicion of Logic came in spite of pizza's push on him, not because of it.

[Montmorency]

But you can only do so much with what you're given. Once again, the overall thread context of this game is a lot different that Pokemon. Here, it's a lot of shouting, introductions to the .Org (far more first-time players here than in the Pokemon game), and Zack posting 20 times in a row, before we even get into Pizza's RP act.


I have to pettifog this. In this game the newcomers are Slaan and Reinoe. In Pokemon there were two as well, Champ and Severing Viper.

...

And what's this sudden Manasi shift, Manasi specifically?

[Winston Hughes]

And what's this sudden Manasi shift, Manasi specifically?

For me, it's part Manasi not having townpoints to speak of, and part just wanting to make a day of it.

[Zack]

Also, anyone who is riding the train of "Logic is scum here, because he is noticeably and explicitly different from XCOM mafia, where he was town."

Read Barto in that game, read Logic in that game. Read them both in this game.

There's a stark difference in one of them, and it's not Logic.
No one listens to me.

Just endless paranoia.

ok

[Winston Hughes]

Third by postcount in this line-up = I'm never scum. :2thumbsup:

[Winston Hughes]

Convince me to vote Tak, Zack.

[Zack]

Convince me to vote Tak, Zack.
People refuse to read him, because he's barto. But it's not that hard.

In the CFC/MTGS game on MU, I defended him for days before finally giving up. He was town.

I don't remember the game it was, but he was worried with fixing votecounts or something while having zero interest in the actual thread. I called him out on it as being wolfy, and got a mixture of scorn and ambivalence.

In Sooh's last game, I called him out as a probable wolf again. He was scum. I barely escaped getting mislynche d1, and got immediately killed by the town vigilante.

In Representative Democracy, as my teammate, I was literally begging him in our scum chat to please, post and do something. He did nothing but occasionally pop in to complain about the number of posts and do not really anything, pretty much what he's done here.

Look at XCOM. How much time does he spend complaining about having to read the thread? Does he make thoughtless OMGUS votes then peace out?

Nope.

[Zack]

People refuse to read him, because he's barto. But it's not that hard.

In the CFC/MTGS game on MU, I defended him for days before finally giving up. He was town.

I don't remember the game it was, but he was worried with fixing votecounts or something while having zero interest in the actual thread. I called him out on it as being wolfy, and got a mixture of scorn and ambivalence. He was a wolf

In Sooh's last game, I called him out as a probable wolf again. He was scum. I barely escaped getting mislynche d1, and got immediately killed by the town vigilante.

In Representative Democracy, as my teammate, I was literally begging him in our scum chat to please, post and do something. He did nothing but occasionally pop in to complain about the number of posts and do not really anything, pretty much what he's done here.

Look at XCOM (he was town). How much time does he spend complaining about having to read the thread? Does he make thoughtless OMGUS votes then peace out?

Nope.

clarified in bold

[Winston Hughes]

GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.

Where's the chat, GH?

[Winston Hughes]

Fair props, Zack.

That's plausible.

[GeneralHankerchief]

GH, how good would you say you are at reading Manasi?

It's probably somewhere in between how well she thinks I can read her and how well I think I can read her.

I think I can read her reasonably well.

[Winston Hughes]

Zack

You got a take on Manasi?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I have to pettifog this. In this game the newcomers are Slaan and Reinoe. In Pokemon there were two as well, Champ and Severing Viper.

...

And what's this sudden Manasi shift, Manasi specifically?

Severing Viper wasn't new, he played a couple games here in 2015.

And give it time.

[GeneralHankerchief]

GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.

Where's the chat, GH?

I don't particularly feel like this thread turning into another exercise of someone screaming over and over about a single read, drowning everything else out, and it having a ~rand chance of actually being correct in the meantime.

At least Pizza's more cooperative about it than Kami.

[Montmorency]

People refuse to read him, because he's barto. But it's not that hard.

In the CFC/MTGS game on MU, I defended him for days before finally giving up. He was town.

I don't remember the game it was, but he was worried with fixing votecounts or something while having zero interest in the actual thread. I called him out on it as being wolfy, and got a mixture of scorn and ambivalence.

In Sooh's last game, I called him out as a probable wolf again. He was scum. I barely escaped getting mislynche d1, and got immediately killed by the town vigilante.

In Representative Democracy, as my teammate, I was literally begging him in our scum chat to please, post and do something. He did nothing but occasionally pop in to complain about the number of posts and do not really anything, pretty much what he's done here.

Look at XCOM. How much time does he spend complaining about having to read the thread? Does he make thoughtless OMGUS votes then peace out?

Nope.

Hmm, but you leave out FrenchRev, where (on the public end) he similarly lolcatted and complained. And I guess for a lot of people XCOM was a rather unique experience.

Here's some major excerpts from Barto's D2 in FrenchRev, where you voted him for similar reasons:


Non, Choxorn, mon cher, je n'ai rien plus que dir.

I disagree with this. The former part at least.

With this post I increase my total postcount by 50% (not even you can do that) so I'm giving you a lot of material to analyse.

vote: NotACop


Are you daring me?


You know, I always get lynched when I always OMGUS people. Lacking any better leads (I don't want a Csargowaggon for scum to hide when I haven't read most of his posts), vote: Dp101

I've decided not to say anything when I have nothing to say.

That is either a cunning Discworld reference or you've had some interesting experiences.

You… can try to provide something.

…

…

Can't you?


Your best rebuttal may be that his only D1 activity in FrenchRev was:


Due to pre-announced circumstances I have to be mostly away from this.

Random.org says vote: atheotes

while here he hasn't AFAIK announced RL limitations.

[Zack]

Zack

You got a take on Manasi?
not really

I think she's one that's easier to read when a wolf or two has already flipped. I'm not too good, and by which I mean horrible, at reading her tonally or by content.

[Zack]

Hmm, but you leave out FrenchRev, where (on the public end) he similarly lolcatted and complained. And I guess for a lot of people XCOM was a rather unique experience.

Here's some major excerpts from Barto's D2 in FrenchRev, where you voted him for similar reasons:








Your best rebuttal may be that his only D1 activity in FrenchRev was:



while here he hasn't AFAIK announced RL limitations.

XCOM is more recent and French Rev was barely mafia

I particularly took a lot of his play in XCOM as a change in style to be more productive

[Winston Hughes]

not really

I think she's one that's easier to read when a wolf or two has already flipped. I'm not too good, and by which I mean horrible, at reading her tonally or by content.

I believe you.

Position is where I'd look for Manasi scum tells.

[Zack]

I believe you.

Position is where I'd look for Manasi scum tells.

your response is weird

Why would I lie about that?

[Winston Hughes]

your response is weird

Why would I lie about that?

I was agreeing with you, and townnudging you for it. :laugh4:

[Zack]

I was agreeing with you, and townnudging you for it. :laugh4:

I know -- I meant the "I believe you" part

I think I'd post the same thing regardless of my alignment

[Winston Hughes]

If Zack isn't town, he's nailed the impression.

I'm sold.

[Slaan]

Well RIP me, this game has devolved (or from your standpoints maybe evolved :D) into meta read fun where I can hardly contribute... I mean I could read up on past games here but ngl my WIM isnt that large...

In the end I'd be down for those lynches today:
- Logic: Don't even care much for pizza's tirade against him (he just made me look at Logic again)... I find his townread towards me and subsequent defending scummy. He townread me after the shitposting early D1 without me having contributed anything... and after being questioned about it doubled down on it because I seemed like a new guy trying to fit in a new group... which is an ok read but why is this AI in the slightest from me? Seems to me like he just put together a quick readlist without having a solving mindset.
- Barto: From everything I've read it's not a slot I'd miss and I doubt I'd ever get a read on it and just sheeping the meta reads of you guys doesnt sound like fun.
- Manasi: Feels way different from the mashes we've played, less chatty and less active and overall just weird for the little bit of Manasi I know
- Choxorn: Few rather isolated pop ins with a rather scummy post townreading pizza
- Xiahou: Didnt do anything so far really, 1 post iirc

Preferred is still the Logic lynch though, in addition to imo >rand flipping scum there has been alot said about him that can help us going forward. And of those 5 I'd lynch Xiahou last obv, hope s/he can find into the game and post more :).

[Winston Hughes]

Good post from Slaan, adding to a general sense of towniness.

Emotional flow has been right from the start.

Only the knowledge he is good (and I don't know how good) gives me pause.

[Fredwood]

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Good post from Slaan, adding to a general sense of towniness.

Emotional flow has been right from the start.

Only the knowledge he is good (and I don't know how good) gives me pause.

In my experience Slaan's the type of player who strengthens as the game goes on.

The fact that he's doing well here now so far after what I perceived to be a hiccup of a start is... slightly unexpected? But it's a good kind of unexpected and I'm not really interested in lynching him.

[Fredwood]

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

Basically yeah, I'm willing to vote either here, but I think I'm leaning Logic (unfortunately)

[GeneralHankerchief]

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

In your experience, how often has the consensus lynch choice halfway through a D1 been correct?

[Winston Hughes]

GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.

Where's the chat, GH?


I don't particularly feel like this thread turning into another exercise of someone screaming over and over about a single read, drowning everything else out, and it having a ~rand chance of actually being correct in the meantime.

At least Pizza's more cooperative about it than Kami.

Looking back, this was weak.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Basically yeah, I'm willing to vote either here, but I think I'm leaning Logic (unfortunately)

And what do you mean "unfortunately?" If you're town you're not hemmed into any particular read here, you get to say what you want.

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: El Barto

[Zack]

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip

[Winston Hughes]

Fredwood feels real in the now.

[Zack]

Looking back, this was weak.

Your point, or GH?

[Winston Hughes]

Top-quality x-post.

Place bets now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Fredwood feels real in the now.

Winston, thoughts on Fred's "unfortunately"?

[Winston Hughes]

Your point, or GH?

GH.

[Zack]

Fredwood feels real in the now.

idk what this means

[Winston Hughes]

Winston, thoughts on Fred's "unfortunately"?

Contrived = scum?

Could be.

[Winston Hughes]

idk what this means

I meant it felt like he was posting freely.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Contrived = scum?

Could be.

I mean, the interpretation/paraphrase that makes most sense to me is the following:

There are two wagons right now, Logic and Barto. I'm scumreading Barto more than Logic but am fine with either lynch. Unfortunately I'm still going to vote Logic despite my greater scumread of Logic.

It just... doesn't make sense from town? It's almost like he's trying to appease Pizza.

[Winston Hughes]

Y'all took opposite read on the snap.

Gut says I like him, but I see where you're coming from.

[Fredwood]

In your experience, how often has the consensus lynch choice halfway through a D1 been correct?

Depends on the strength of the read and the reliability of the pursuer. I've been in a lot of games where consensus was right, i've been in a lot of games where it wasn't. So I don't really see how that's a relevant question, it's not common or rare enough to really discount the voracity of Pizza's read because of it.

I haven't seen this much of a consensus of a lynch Day 1 though, this is what was bothering me earlier. To the point where you defended him, I guess Zack had a soft defense that didn't leave an impression everyone was cool with his lynch.

I don't see a world, even if Logic does survive (I'll set aside that if he does survive it won't be because he did a good job tapdancing), that this won't be a thing for the rest of the game. His pressure has been oppressive to an absurd degree and the only way I won't vote him today would be because I empathize with him; this would blow as either alignment.

[Fredwood]

And what do you mean "unfortunately?" If you're town you're not hemmed into any particular read here, you get to say what you want.

Because I feel hella sorry for him.

[Fredwood]

I mean, the interpretation/paraphrase that makes most sense to me is the following:

There are two wagons right now, Logic and Barto. I'm scumreading Barto more than Logic but am fine with either lynch. Unfortunately I'm still going to vote Logic despite my greater scumread of Logic.

It just... doesn't make sense from town? It's almost like he's trying to appease Pizza.

What? That seems a bit of a manipulation.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Depends on the strength of the read and the reliability of the pursuer. I've been in a lot of games where consensus was right, i've been in a lot of games where it wasn't. So I don't really see how that's a relevant question, it's not common or rare enough to really discount the voracity of Pizza's read because of it.

I haven't seen this much of a consensus of a lynch Day 1 though, this is what was bothering me earlier. To the point where you defended him, I guess Zack had a soft defense that didn't leave an impression everyone was cool with his lynch.

I don't see a world, even if Logic does survive (I'll set aside that if he does survive it won't be because he did a good job tapdancing), that this won't be a thing for the rest of the game. His pressure has been oppressive to an absurd degree and the only way I won't vote him today would be because I empathize with him; this would blow as either alignment.


Because I feel hella sorry for him.

This is super lazy, you should vote for your biggest scumread regardless of context except for very specific exceptions.

This isn't one of them.

[Slaan]

Because I feel hella sorry for him.

I think thats towny from Fred. Same thing happened in the wild west game that he started to feel sorry for the guy under immense pressure and fred was town there. Not that its not fakeable etc etc but it's in line with his prev town play so thats :top:

[Winston Hughes]

This is super lazy, you should vote for your biggest scumread regardless of context except for very specific exceptions.

This isn't one of them.

Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.

[Fredwood]

This is super lazy, you should vote for your biggest scumread regardless of context except for very specific exceptions.

This isn't one of them.

lolok either are my top scumread, except logic is more of a thing, if you want to twist that into an agenda then feel free to do so.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.


lolok either are my top scumread, except logic is more of a thing, if you want to twist that into an agenda then feel free to do so.

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

[Csargo]

Vote: El Barto

I'm gonna go with this.

Vote: El Barto

[Winston Hughes]

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: GH

[GeneralHankerchief]

Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.

Can you elaborate?

[Xiahou]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.


I'm gonna go with this.

Vote: El Barto

I don't care for this either. :no:

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (3): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (3): Zack, Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

[Fredwood]

Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

So now you're trying to direct what my response should have been? Saying that I have sympathy, something that I stated within the meat of the post, so it wasn't that much of an inference that the unfortunately meant that despite my humanity I'm likely to vote him. The wording is only misleading because you're actively altering the meaning.

Either way, I posted it because I felt like it and wanted people to know where I was at.

Couple that with your inference that I should not vote Logic because he's consensus and lolconensusisneverrightyouguyslol, then calling me lazy for not "voting" my top scumread (when Logic is a relatively top scum read)...tis strange.

[Winston Hughes]

Can you elaborate?

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

[Winston Hughes]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.

For the town part you're generally correct, but I think you're oversimplifying the mafia's job. There's a lot more nuance to it, working on multiple levels to ensure both short and longterm success.

Luckily all I have to do is just say what's on my mind this game. :yes:

[Winston Hughes]

Show me the good stuff, GH.

[reinoe]

Exciting stuff is happening. Catching only snippets Fredwood came out townie and GH came out awkward. Not sure if scummy though.

I can understand someone not voting their top scumread. For example logic has at least one "pseudo-vote" from Winston and I wouldn't mind going there myself. But I want to see a counterwagon and see how it develops and who's on it. Even though I haven't felt great about zack I can say that his 3 person wagon is not cool.
GeneralHanderkerchief

Whom are your scumspects from strongest to weakest?

[Winston Hughes]

Zack
pizza
Monty
Fredwood
Dp101

Townpile.

[Winston Hughes]

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

[Winston Hughes]

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

[Montmorency]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.



I don't care for this either. :no:

Hi.


GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile

What do you think of Choxorn?

[Montmorency]

Can you clarify the ordering in those piles, if they are ordered?

[Winston Hughes]

What do you think of Choxorn?

Conservative, lacks juice.

[Winston Hughes]

Can you clarify the ordering in those piles, if they are ordered?

Townpile order was deliberate, others were in order of recollection.

[Montmorency]

Conservative, lacks juice.

He has two distinct blocks of three posts. First set of 3 posts is a joke and a few low-impact reads, standard Choxorn.
Second set of 3 posts is shading a few people (Zack and Xiahou), recreating a case against Logic to sheep Pizza (who is looking like town but you can never be sure).

It's the second block, right?

Order as in top-bottom or.

[Winston Hughes]

He has two distinct blocks of three posts. First set of 3 posts is a joke and a few low-impact reads, standard Choxorn.
Second set of 3 posts is shading a few people (Zack and Xiahou), recreating a case against Logic to sheep Pizza (who is looking like town but you can never be sure).

It's the second block, right?

Order as in top-bottom or.

He's not left scumhooks, except by omission.

[Winston Hughes]

Order as in top-bottom or.

Townpile is most townie at top.

[Winston Hughes]

You're making me feel you should be even higher.

Very nice work if you're scum.

[Csargo]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.



I don't care for this either. :no:

Why?

[Montmorency]

He's not left scumhooks, except by omission.

Here's his full ISO:

1-3


'Sup

Medium Claim: 4th Party Hyperdimensional Alien Serial Survivor Pirate

(a pawn on the c-file)


Hot Takes:

Dp101's posts are good

Csargo's are scummy

Zack, Pizza, Winston, and Monty all being themselves, more or less

Joke + quick leans on major actives-so-far.


That was the joke.




Don't like this post. Hard to say way, it just sorta rubs me the wrong way. Call it gut feeling, I guess.

Leans being weak was "the joke", replying to Zack. Negative gut feeling about Logic's wall on his return following the first volleys from Pizza.

4-6


> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto

:inquisitive:



Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Shading Zack for criticizing Barto for going after low-hanging fruit. Shading Xiahou's opening for complaining about post-count and voting Zack; compares Xiahou to Barto.


I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

Solid town vibes from Pizza, but Pizza can never be fully trusted.


Logic-

First few posts are just talking about video games, total fluff

First real post is this one, in response to Pizza calling him scummy:



Then more fluff

Some stuff about how he's confused by how Pizza's playing, which is odd, because talk a bunch and engage in weird roleplaying is what Pizza always does.

Then there's this:



I still don't like this post. Still just feels off, and voting Kagemusha for an obvious joke vote looks scummy to me. His later attempt to justify it seems like he's really grasping at straws:





And this post is just wishy-washy. And still feels off to me.


Just generally Logic feels very non-committal with his suspicions, is guarded with his language, never pushing anything he says too strongly so he has room to go back on what he said earlier, and a lot of his posts are pretty light on content.

Vote: Logic

Nxe7+

Logic ISO, concludes case against Logic for being guarded and non-commital.



What pinged me is the compartmentalized shade and sheeping without venturing anything new or evaluating players broadly on balance. What is the omission from your POV?

I looked at town Choxorn in Swords and Sorcery, where I recall him being fairly good. 4 evenly spaced few-liner posts, shift in earnest attacking and voting DP for a scummy thing he did, responding to DP's challenge with analysis of DP alone and DP-Winston, absenting himself for the second half of the day then popping back in during night to offer a fair contribution of analysis on day's events. I think one way to put the difference is that Choxorn was more precise and focused in that D1, in the one instance he addressed the game course. What Choxorn did here in his second block of posts was spreading himself thinner.

So if you want to diversify wagons,

Unvote: Zack

Vote: Choxorn

might be a better shot than Barto or Manasi.

[Zack]

Don't like this post.

Feels like Fredwood's playing 72/24, while GH is looking to eod.


Town play the day, scum play for the deadliine.


Town's job is to use the time available to rebalance the information equation in its favour.

Scum's job is to ensure town guesses wrong at eod.
This progression seems off to me. It reads like you were trying to insert an opportunity to grandstand about that, because I've squinted my eyes in confusion a few times to try and find the relevance to the argument between GH and Fred, and it's not there.

On that point, I think they both come out of it looking good, actually.


GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.

Where's the chat, GH?
This post got me thinking about one thing that bugged me about GH in pokemon. I had him near the top of my reads lists almost the whole time I was alive, embarrassingly, but I remember still being frustrated that he wasn't engaging with me more in the thread. He seemed to pop in and out, and if he didn't want to answer a question, he'd leave the thread and ignore it. In contrast, so far that hasn't been the case (even as I know he's busy with another game). Winston was on the right track in that, if GH is a wolf he probably just drops that text bomb and leaves. But he stuck around and picked fights. And I think he really did see things in Fred's post that bothered him, and he wanted to dig in.

Fred's side looks really pure -- dunno if as a wolf he's capable of taking that criticism so easily in stride like that. Fred's back up again, but I still think that post is problematic if one of Barto and Logic is a wolf.

Upon reflection, Winston probably good too -- I think he'd be more content to stay in the background a bit more if he was scum.

Csargo responding to the Xiahou post with a simple, "why?" is EXACTLY how I was going to respond to it. X only voted me because I had a lot of posts (even though he thanked one of them, so clearly he didn't really mind that much), he never said I was scummy that I remember, but he seems to be implying that he did find something legitimately wolfy about me. I've only played with him in Pirate Ship Mafia, don't remember his behavior at all outside of the 200 gold fiasco, which I don't think is relevant here. In any case, not enough of an issue yet for me to go digging through past games for clues.

[Zack]

Monty -- I think the push on choxorn has merit (certainly more than the one on me :stare:).

He seems to be riding / piggybacking on Pizzaguy.

[Zack]

Slaan
Csargo
Kage
Cuth
reinoe
Xiahou

remainder

I think you and logic are the only ones that low on Kage. Anything specific there?

[Zack]

Oh, I just realized that was the null pile.

but still

[Zack]

https://i.imgur.com/Gvuc4Cr.png

[Csargo]

Kage is 90% town here.

[Choxorn]

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.


I like this. It speaks to my residual doubt on Zack.


I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.


Winston: You might be right, I don't usually play 72/24, but can you explain how this is a Bad Thing?

Fred: My concern is still your wording, if you were fine with both wagons then I think you would have just left it at that.

The townies have control of the day. It's generally a good idea to let it last as long as possible, to get the most information you can.



I looked at town Choxorn in Swords and Sorcery, where I recall him being fairly good. 4 evenly spaced few-liner posts, shift in earnest attacking and voting DP for a scummy thing he did, responding to DP's challenge with analysis of DP alone and DP-Winston, absenting himself for the second half of the day then popping back in during night to offer a fair contribution of analysis on day's events. I think one way to put the difference is that Choxorn was more precise and focused in that D1, in the one instance he addressed the game course. What Choxorn did here in his second block of posts was spreading himself thinner.


Well, yeah, but that was pretty atypical for me- it was a game where DP and Al Sips stood out to me as really scummy, pretty much right from the start. Usually I don't play very well on Day 1 and get better as the game goes on. Case in point: This game, and my game in the mafia championships where I guessed horribly wrong the first two days and went really hard after a scummy townie instead of an actual mafia.

Also, I had a lot fewer RL commitments back in February than I do right now, which is why I'm only just briefly popping in and out- that's all I really have time to do.

[Zack]

I have residual doubt on Zack, too, might just be paranoia but might not be. And I still think it's weird that he'd call out Pizza for going after what he calls "low hanging fruit" in Logic and Csargo, and then Zack proceeds to, 2 pages later, start going hard after El Barto, the lowest possible hanging of low hanging fruit.
did you read my posts on el barto?

[El Barto]

I'll be around for the next 40-60 minutes and I'll try to read the last ~250 posts. If anyone wants to ask anything during that time, go ahead.

[El Barto]

I really don't like Xiahou's vote on Zack on #729. I usually employ the O.M.G.U.S. algorithm on Day One, but that reads like trying to form a counterwaggon for Logic's benefit.

vote: Xiahou

[El Barto]

Firstly, I wouldn’t exactly describe my r actions towards logic and Barto tearing st their throats, but anyway, I feel that out of those 3, the lynch order should be Logic > Barto > Manasi, with manasi basically being my null benchmark at this point. Barto’s outright refusal to read the thread feels like a new level of anti-town behaviour from him, and I’m starting to agree with Pizza on Logic. However, I want to emphasise here that I am not entirely sure how to read logic, and so my vote is more sheeping than anything else. Could you elaborate as to what you mean by “Logic the round before his lynch”? Are you referring to a past game here? Or do you think logic is playling like this because he thinks he is going to get lynched? I really can’t parse your statement.
It's not an outright refusal; I said I might read it if/when I had the time. Which, having a 72-hour phase, isn't that much of a stretch.

I thought Reinoe's entrance was fine. Why didn't you like it?
Didn't he vote for me?

I'm bored with being townread.

Tell me why I'm scum.
'cos you voted for me.

Also, anyone who is riding the train of "Logic is scum here, because he is noticeably and explicitly different from XCOM mafia, where he was town."

Read Barto in that game, read Logic in that game. Read them both in this game.

There's a stark difference in one of them, and it's not Logic.
How did I behave in Day One in that game?


Convince me to vote Tak, Zack.People refuse to read him, because he's barto. But it's not that hard.

In the CFC/MTGS game on MU, I defended him for days before finally giving up. He was town.

I don't remember the game it was, but he was worried with fixing votecounts or something while having zero interest in the actual thread. I called him out on it as being wolfy, and got a mixture of scorn and ambivalence.

In Sooh's last game, I called him out as a probable wolf again. He was scum. I barely escaped getting mislynche d1, and got immediately killed by the town vigilante.

In Representative Democracy, as my teammate, I was literally begging him in our scum chat to please, post and do something. He did nothing but occasionally pop in to complain about the number of posts and do not really anything, pretty much what he's done here.

Look at XCOM. How much time does he spend complaining about having to read the thread? Does he make thoughtless OMGUS votes then peace out?

Nope.



As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip
Alternate theory: the mafioso knows the two leading bandwaggons are on people not his faction. Thus he makes a post where he faffs about, muses a bit, and contradicts himself. When one flips town he will say he really should have gone with his conscience and votes the other one.

Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.
Give me a bit more justification and I might bite. At worst we'll just have given him more time in which to prepare the fourth edition of Pirate Ship Mafia (this is a good reason to lynch him, incidentally).

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile
Two-fingered salute it is.

[Zack]

vote: choxorn

Don't really want to lynch barto anymore

I'm going to bed

[Cuthillius]

winston's stuff recently looks good

i like what he's doing and where he's going

movin' him up

[El Barto]

Time's up, lads.

(…)Also, I had a lot fewer RL commitments back in February than I do right now, which is why I'm only just briefly popping in and out- that's all I really have time to do.
Is this why you're voting choxorn, Zack?

[Dp101]

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.

[Choxorn]

did you read my posts on el barto?

I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Choxorn (2): Montmorency, Zack

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

[Sooh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htobTBlCvUU

[Zack]

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.
don't remember you being so quick to dismiss things as stupid and hot garbage before


I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.
why are you defending him but not logic?

also, I was hoping that when barto said he was going to be around that long he would do a little more than that :/

[Slaan]

Hello

[Slaan]

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

[Slaan]

Btw whats the EoD meta here? What can I expect? CFD's? Lots of vote change? Or is it more quiet?

[Zack]

more quiet, though some people might be here to do stuff

[Kagemusha]

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

Im thinking along the same lines. One reason for switching back to Logic yesterday for me was to see what GH would do.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Quick question to all before I even read up:

The people on the Logic wagon. Are we all townies? This 1-wagon formation is really not what I was expecting to come back to. I don't have an issue with anyone on the wagon though, or didn't at the time of my last post.

That's a lot of folks just spread out on random names elsewhere.

[Slaan]

I'm highly suspicious of Cho, rest is fine

[Kagemusha]

How i see Chox, is that all his townie games prepare for playing scum eventually, so there is not anything one can pick apart as difference. For that reason Chox becomes someone to be lynched at one point always, but i rather lynch him at points when there is not anything else to pursue.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh, I was referring to his consistent early pushing of me when he's scum. I'm pretty happy calling him town now.

It might have happened a couple of times, but I don't think that should be a reliable tell. I know when I am scum I do try to deliberately mix it up who I push against, and it's largely based off of who I think I can call scummy based on the game state. It'd be a coincidence if it was the same person in multiple games.


i don't have much of a lean on winston

i've been burned in the past

i'm not going to maintain that as a read unless i actually can come up with some reason

My gut reaction is to town read this post, regardless of where I have everyone else or the game state. It just strikes me as a genuine thought, but I don't know if I can put into words why I think so, and I'd rather go study some Cuth as scum games to get a better read for his latest scum meta. All I can remember offhand is his town game because it's been a while since he was scum against me I think.

Cuth someone I didn't have a strong read on before, so that's my homework assignment for end of round / before start of day 2.


1. GH
2. Csargo
3. Dp101
4. Pizza
5. Fredwood
6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
8. Zack
9. Cuthillius
10. Manasi
11. Slaan
12. Reinoe
13. Choxorn
14. Winston Hughes
15. Logic
16. Xiahou
17. Kagemusha

Any of the bolded people I'd consider suspicious. Probably throw WH in there for paranoia reasons as well, maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons.

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.


... what? Do you know what my scumrange and townrange are and could you even tell what is in one and not the other? Have you read a scum game from me to make those reads? Sorry but this post feels very bad from my point of view. What do you think is underwhelming about or going in a strange direction? Who do I shade unnecessary? You linked post is me calling out Bart for apparently being Bart and playing like crap (no offence ;)), I think calling him out on it is necessary. And yes my opening is weak, I don't care for the game in RVS and I'm not looking to solve there. I try to get to know the ppl a bit so I can better remember their names going forward... Let me put this differently: Who didnt have a weak opening in the first 2 hours?

This post just feels empty despite there being many words... same as the long post about dp previously... whats up Cuth?

This post reads generically like it could be scum taking advantage of a weak/attackable post by a townie. But all of those questions also feel legitimate and I feel like this could all be normal Slaan.

What I mean another way, is that this is the kind of post I look for motive on, because if Cuth is town, that post was really attackable, and how people attack suspicious posts tells me a lot about their real process. Passive aggression is something I've been noting across games more and more as a fairly reliable generic scumtell, if passive aggression is not in the person's town playbook. Something about being scum causes people to give easier justifications for scumreading people, and they also tend to distance themselves from that suspicion. Not always, not even in the majority of cases, but they do like to make it someone else's fault that they're scum reading them and they also tend to phrase the suspicion like innocent questions or smudges as opposed to "X is a wolf for this post".

This post would fit that pattern in general of Just Asking Questions to smudge Cuthillius. But my gut is telling me to discount that, like the reasons Slaan is doing it would be more like his own personality causing him to react this way to Cuth. The specific questions on townrange/scumrange and the question on who had a strong opening in the first couple hours feel like solving questions Slaan would most likely legitimately have.

So it fits a scummy pattern in the generic sense, but I don't think the tell is reliable in this specific instance. Slaan can be scum, I haven't locked him town, but this post isn't pushing me in that direction, even though it fits stuff I tend to look for.

I don't know Slaan's range, all I remember is that he was a seemingly competent and fun town player in his champs game. That's all I got. My town is pretty full but I still don't think he's doing anything here that would lead to kicking him out, despite the List Of Questions style post.

I'll break this up so it's not a big wall, posting and continuing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

reinoe

I'm somewhere around here right now:

Zack
Kage
Monty

Dp101
reinoe
Slaan
Logic
Winston
ATPG

---town line---

Csargo
Xiahou
Cuth
Fredwood
El Barto

Choxorn
Manasi

~~~~~~

Zack is obvious town, Kage I already talked about, Monty seems like usual Monty.

The people in the next best slot all are either matching their town meta or are otherwise helping push the gamestate along in a way I consider to be townie.

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that. I don't really have a read on Csargo and Cuth is sort of improving for me since I voted him early on in the phase as he gets more engaged, but he's not there yet. Fredwood I need to take another look at now that we've had some distance from our interaction yesterday and how it went down.

Choxorn as town just has... more bite to him. I'm not really seeing that from him here. Compare his some of his posts in Swords and Sorcery, where he was town:


I didn't know there was a lynchproof spell, it wasn't among my options.



I don't like this post at all, it sounds like what a scum would say if they wanted to defend a scumbuddy and go after the one attacking them. What do you mean, would have found something else by now? It's been a few pages, and it's still day 1, there's not much to go on.

Vote: Dp101



Well, only for one hand, he can still get more for his other hand, can't he (oh dear god, please no)


[snip]
At this point I'd say Sooh is probably scum unless she has a really good explanation for what happened night 1 and can show up today and stop acting like a scum with low wim who's resigned to defeat. If not her, lynch Snerk, if not either of them, lynch Csargo.

Vote: Sooh

To posts in Representative Democracy, where he was mafia:


You missed my district vote for Cuth.



And I thought Pizza's textwalls were bad...

Seriously, make your point more succinctly, or quote some of the posts you're referring to, or something, because this is more or less a bland wall of text, it's hard to see the evidence if you don't quote anything Zack has actually said, and I can't really parse a lot of it to make sense of what your argument is.

And he's just more direct and to the point when he's town. So far the closest note he's hit here is probably this post:


> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto

:inquisitive:



Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Which isn't quite there.

[Slaan]

Well, it was just a normal Slaan response to a read post about me that doesnt make sense from my perspective, I think I'd respond this way as either alignment. Same way I'm now voting on Logic because of his read on me, Winston's read on me also pinged me a bit scummy and why I questioned Fred's townread on me. Reads towards me are always of considerable interest because trying to see how they got that read can tell me what mindset they have in regards to solving...

And on the subject of Cuth... for some reason I have him as a strong player in my mind but I'm starting to question it ... don't even know how I came to that conclusion in the first place, probably the different coloured nametag on MU and having talked with him on discord during champ games... anyway, I expected alot from him and his read on me fell way short.

Interesting analysis on the passive aggressive thing though... and I agree on principle although I might get into trouble for that considering I can be pretty p/a in general :D

[Askthepizzaguy]

no? i haven't read a single wolfgame from you, i'm just comparing it to when i have played with you, particularly anni

you just

are going in directions that... i don't expect and i don't think are the most productive, and i'm honestly not going to bother isoing you and quoting more

because it's a relatively thin read from my single read-through of this thread

and there's no huge reason i feel is making me want to or need to figure you out at this point

and... most people didn't have that weak of an opening? or at least felt more natural or, as is probably more applicable in the case, acted like i'm used to them acting, in that i've played with most of them at least multiple times

do you have a particular issue with me talking through a read of you/anyone else if i don't come to a firm conclusion at this point in the game?

Strikes me as a real thought townies have.

It may not be a perfect process, but I often have to juggle who I invest my time in. I often deliberately put some people in a vaguely town or vaguely suspect limbo state and wait until they do more, or I have more time, to tackle the slot.

I feel like such thoughts go missing from a scum-perspective. That's not on the forefront of their mind which is why this is more town indicative when you see it.

It's not widely thought of as a town tell so only the truly best scum actors should be faking this brainwave.

That should mean I have a strong town read on Cuth by now. I don't think my gut has caught up to my head.

[Slaan]

@GH Why do you have Logic so far up? He hasnt really been pushing the thread forward or anything really... Even if you don't agree with pizzas point or mine to have him so far above Xiahua who has similarly done not much... ?

PS: Can someone tell me why 'reply to thread' button sometimes opens a 'quick reply' window at the bottom and sometimes take me to the 'detailed reply' form?

[GeneralHankerchief]

@GH Why do you have Logic so far up? He hasnt really been pushing the thread forward or anything really... Even if you don't agree with pizzas point or mine to have him so far above Xiahua who has similarly done not much... ?

PS: Can someone tell me why 'reply to thread' button sometimes opens a 'quick reply' window at the bottom and sometimes take me to the 'detailed reply' form?

Logic has a larger sample size than Xiahou to judge, and he's acting in line with his town meta as per the context of the game as I mentioned yesterday. :yes:

No idea about the other issue unfortunately. Just one of those things.

[Slaan]

@GH/Pizza: do you guys know how both of you have such different interpretations of Logics meta? Do you feel like the other is lying/pushing a mislynch ?

[GeneralHankerchief]

@GH/Pizza: do you guys know how both of you have such different interpretations of Logics meta? Do you feel like the other is lying/pushing a mislynch ?

I don't think it's a different interpretation of Logic's meta so much as Pizza's case kind of just snowballing. At the time Pizza initially posted his first suspicion of Logic, Logic was still just interacting with the thread and engaging in the general fluffposting that had characterized the game to that point and called him out for it. As I mentioned in the big wall I made yesterday, Logic got down to the game faster in Pokemon, but that was also because everybody got down to the game faster in Pokemon.

Pizza also has a tendency to tunnel every now and then. I think he does it more as town than mafia, and he's right maybe a bit >rand, and he's been getting better at not doing it lately, but he still does it from time to time and I think the foundation of his tunnel is flawed here as I pointed out last night.

Hence, snowballing.

[Zack]

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that.
???

[Zack]

Quick question to all before I even read up:

The people on the Logic wagon. Are we all townies? This 1-wagon formation is really not what I was expecting to come back to. I don't have an issue with anyone on the wagon though, or didn't at the time of my last post.

That's a lot of folks just spread out on random names elsewhere.

I think the most likely scenario is:

you are town, logic is a mislynch, wolves are blowing smoke up your butt to encourage it

[Zack]

I will be in and out today, most likely

will try to get the tiers list I talked about yesterday settled

should be here for eod

[Cuthillius]

monty's interaction with winston/zack at the beginning of the game is really really weird

i just

don't think it's particularly game-related

it

still really just bothers me a little

i feel like he drags something that's unrelated anything out for no discernable reason?

it's not even fluff or stuff, it just feels like it's taking fluff and... almost trying to get it to a game-related area without doing so?

probably reading into it too much

[Csargo]

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.

It was probably a poor decision to bold you in that list tbh, since I would probably lump you in with Zack/WH at this point. My vote has just been a placeholder for a while now. Zack/WH/ATPG are me just being cautious about just lumping you all as town without due diligence on my part. It's still early and I think doing so would be a mistake. I did say at some point that the Logic flip would effect my view, which seems clear to me, but maybe I didn't make it so, but I really like holding contradictory views in my head, which has already been pointed out :). I honestly don't really town read anyone at this point, besides Kage, Monty, and DP101, I feel good about a lot of the unbolded people in my list, but I'm not really town reading them per se. As far as reading your slot for alignment, I'll just say that I'm being obstinate ~:wink:.

Just because we've come to the same conclusions on who is suspect at this point doesn't mean that you can't be scum or I can't be scum. It's just waiting for flips to see.

[Cuthillius]

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

this post feels mildly discredit-y

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm bored.

Vote: Choxorn

[Slaan]

Well, 72 hour days...

Btw where did Pizza go? The last bit from his last big post


I'll break this up so it's not a big wall, posting and continuing.

Reads like he wanted to give more reads/info but he just vanished? Did the pasta nation attack? https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/ohnein_s.gif

[Kagemusha]

I'm bored.

Vote: Choxorn

Why? :D

[reinoe]

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

Basically yeah, I'm willing to vote either here, but I think I'm leaning Logic (unfortunately)


lolok either are my top scumread, except logic is more of a thing, if you want to twist that into an agenda then feel free to do so.


Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Choxorn (2): Montmorency, Zack

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

To everyone who's not comfortable with a logic wagon...

Let's get a Fredwood counterwagon going on right here right now. Fredwood is caught not just in a logical inconsistency, he's also been caught not even continuing to do a re-assessment of the game or push his reads.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the most likely scenario is:

you are town, logic is a mislynch, wolves are blowing smoke up your butt to encourage it
I think he's not a mislynch but wolves are definitely blowing smoke up my butt.

I also think he's being bussed by 1 wolf.

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Choxorn

Vote with one of my top suspects on the counter-wagon to my #1 suspect?

:yes:

[reinoe]

VOTE: FREDWOOD

I almost edited my post. That feature should be disabled in the mafia sub-forum.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, 72 hour days...

Btw where did Pizza go? The last bit from his last big post



Reads like he wanted to give more reads/info but he just vanished? Did the pasta nation attack? https://www.civforum.de/images/smilies/ohnein_s.gif

Eating dinner plus wife is watching or was watching border patrol and my god that shit is distracting. This is the post I was working on.

[Winston Hughes]

I also think he's being bussed by 1 wolf.

I got a bussy feeling off chox's vote.

[Askthepizzaguy]

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto

:inquisitive:

Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Post at Zack and Xiahou ^

I think this post is more a point against choxorn than anything else, but there's an outside chance he's not wrong on one of these. I have to mull this, snap judgment not possible here esp when I'm not caught up. This will have to be a body of work read, not a single post read.


I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

Too generic / cliche. Choxorn needs a close close look from me. Not comfortable with this slot atm.


Some stuff about how he's confused by how Pizza's playing, which is odd, because talk a bunch and engage in weird roleplaying is what Pizza always does.

I don't think I roleplay that often. I need a real reason to roleplay, or else I'm playing as myself. The Askthepizzaguy version of myself anyway.

The rest of the post I agree with but don't know if it's alignment indicative. It could just be choxorn bussing Logic. I feel like choxorn would be comfortable bussing someone for real on day one, because he's one of the few people who would get away with it in the long term, which is the ultimate issue with d1 bussing, it costs you 2 wolves almost always, not just one. They don't have a ton of woofs to spare after that due to the game size.


It just a gut thing at this point, in regards to pizza, I think there's decent potential for pizza to be mafia. I can see why people are town reading him though, he's playing very similarly to XCOM. I don't think it's the same though, so I have reservations.

This is what Manasi does as scum and probably as town.

I can't read El Barto well.

Choxorn for low posts, can't get a read on him. Same for Xiahou.

I feel like logic is different from XCOM, but I need to iso that game and see.

I'd much rather eliminate people with less posts this early in the game tbh. I can get a much better read on the non-bolded people going forward, less so with the others.

Too generic.

This post is easily good for strategic reasons. If you cast a wide net and no real reasons to support anything you say, you have all the options still on the table.

Csargo just clearing hurdles, I don't see depth, and even though he's not known to be super talkative or explanatory as town, I still don't believe these reads. I feel like if he's scum then he can easily distance from any of them this way without contributing to their deaths.

I think Csargo is rand or better correct on the suspects but he's not pushing them in a way that makes me believe he believes it. Too vague and generic even for Csargo. If he's town and everything he's saying is true then I can see how I'm arriving at these conclusions incorrectly, lack of WIM and time, but still. When he's here and posting his beliefs I have to believe he believes them, and I still don't so far.

Csargo and choxorn both feel significantly scummy to me, enough to mention and highlight.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I got a bussy feeling off chox's vote.

CORRECT!

I shouldn't rp here, I'm being serious. Exactly, that was where I was. It seems obvious, even, the more I think about it.

Should we lynch choxorn before Logic? I'm at like 99 percent Logic is scum, I don't want him to get away, but yeah, I think it's a bus.

Even if Logic were somehow town it still looks bad for chox.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm lagging behind in my initial read of the missing posts, I'll try to power through them but this is where I'm currently at.

Logic scum
Choxorn scummy
Csargo fairly scummy

I feel like these three are distancing each other.

[Askthepizzaguy]

However I imagine a wolf!cuth to be more concise. To have some sort of point or agenda or direction you'd want to bring across when you post which seems to be lacking... which is probably a terrible reason to start townreading you... but here I am.

I don't know. It could be more valid than I think. I'll look for this when I research Cuth, to see if that's true or not.


I understand the overall sentiment of this post, but I take issue with this portion of it. You know very well that I am not lissa, or "a few others", and personally, after playing with me for as many games as you have, I would think that you'ld know that I don't often do the expected thing. In particular, I really try and avoid getting heated as a wolf, because I feel it strays too close to the kind of emotional manipulation that makes me feel guilty, as opposed to the more fun gleefully lying about what I feel and why I feel it. Your first post is slightly accurate in that I can certainly imagine myself screwing around a little like that as a wolf, but overall I think I'd only do that at MU. After how fast I was caught as scum the one time I randed it on this website, I'm pretty sure that if it happened again, I'd be really frozen and clunky in my posting out of fear of that same kind of rapid collapse.

This post gave me a bad gut feeling, so I stopped and thought about it.

The line "You know very well that I'm not Lissa or "a few others"" with the scare quotes felt wrong. I'm looking for advantage taking or posturing when I read that bit.

I feel like the self meta on his wolf game is true regardless of his alignment, just something he probably doesn't lie about. The last bit in bold feels like it should be true. I know that dp's town game and therefore his more honest self in these games is often characterized by self-doubt. So the basis of what he's saying should all be true. I don't think this is a lock. When one has nearly perfect information, one can be a lot more bold. I think what dp is saying here is based in truth but he could be overplaying his hand if my read is wrong and he were somehow scum here.

If the rest of dp101's iso didn't look townie and I didn't already have a good town read on him I'd think about this more. This post also isn't a tell, as it should also come from town dp101, all I'm saying is I think it could be less conclusive than he's suggesting which worried me for a moment.

I probably wouldn't even be making a comment about this, but I think I want to get it all off my chest in case I'm right on Logic and wrong on dp. Town lean good for dp, town lock, not sure. He's good so long as we're mostly lynching scums. Examine again if we get way off track.

Tl;dr I think he's still town. Just putting in the diligence in case he's giving a better wolf performance than I expect.


I feel dissected. Perhaps a cigarette yuo sexy beast?:sweetheart:

Reading through the night. I like my vote on Cuth the only weakness is that i do not know his playstyle. What Slaander is posting suggest towards reading Cuth´s initial ISO. Any other takes on Cuth?

I think he should be town here, but my gut isn't there and I need to solidify that read along with a couple other nulls or former nulls. Look for a decision before start of day 2, as he should have been more reliably readable because of his content and volume by then. Even now, if I had the time.

God I have multiple tabs open. Why this wasn't included in the other post. I have no idea if this was supposed to come before or after the other one.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (4): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Winston Hughes

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Fredwood (1): Reinoe

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

[Csargo]

If you lay out your problems with me concisely ATPG I'll try to respond to them to the best of my current ability.

[Askthepizzaguy]

To everyone who's not comfortable with a logic wagon...

Let's get a Fredwood counterwagon going on right here right now. Fredwood is caught not just in a logical inconsistency, he's also been caught not even continuing to do a re-assessment of the game or push his reads.

I'll give you a quick response as I read. As of now, I can't lend my support to this. I think I'm solidly going to vote inside of choxorn or logic, or csargo as a third option today.

I don't have a big town read on Fredwood, he's in limbo so far. I think we're on more solid ground on several candidates and I think I need time to flesh out Freddy's alignment. I got some false bad reads on him in XCOM and then arrived at a goodish spot on him. Unless he posts something super indicative, I don't think the logic thing is as big a tell as you think. I also am only kind of seeing what you're thinking, I don't know if I can agree it's that much of a logic inconsistency in the first place.

I'll continue to look at Fred and try to resolve his alignment. If I come to the conclusion he's scum and I've had a chance to shoot inside the above three, then if I'm still alive I'll lend support. I just can't chase so many rabbits here, especially when I think I have more catchable and more likely to be scum options.

[reinoe]

I was gonna rally to try and get a wagon going on Fredwood but I'm fine with Chox and Logic getting lynched.

Let's make it truly even.

Vote: Choxorn

[Askthepizzaguy]

Why did you ask zack?

For her, this is probably not significant. If you've ever had a buddy you like to play with, and would defer to when you're not sure, Zack is probably that for Manasi.

I get why you'd think it's odd. This is the exception. If Manasi is scum it's not for this kind of brainwave.

[Askthepizzaguy]

wolfy

Yeah.

Good snap read. Feels correct in terms of both outcome and mindmeld.


choxy so conservative.

Where's the juice, choxy?

Mmm. Plus Zack and reinoe all saw it.

I think choxorn is a must-lynch here. He's always gonna be a question now and too many folks I'm pretty sure are town are coming to that conclusion.


Three scenarios, ordered most-to-least likely by my estimation:

1) pizza is town and correct about Logic

2) pizza is town and wrong about Logic

3) pizza is scum

Above questions re. pizza are due diligence, in recognition that pizza is better at getting townread as scum than as town (esp. on D1).
+1


My level of confidence in pizza's towniness and his read of Logic is a new sensation.

I want to prod at it before it's either confirmed or questioned by the flip.
Phrasing here has ring of truth and feels townie.


What's the likely hood that pizza is scum and logic is town?

What's the likely-hood that pizza is scum and he's bussing his partner into the ground?

The first is impossible and it's still more likely than the second one. I've talked at length about how bad this is. Only a select few can get away with it and I in particular am not one of them, as I don't have late game staying power unless most of my buddies made it to the middlegame and I controlled who lived and died well. My impact on the game has to come soon, and by impact, I mean dead townies. I need me some dead townies. Even if I'm not the one pushing them hard.

If I'm distancing from my partner, it's designed to not cause death, just make me look good later.

I'm seriously more likely to have randed town and secretly been mafia all along than the latter. I believe I told my scum buddies to bus me hard in a recentish game as scum, the one with Monty and El Barto as my partners, but that's because I know I don't have late game staying power and they very much do. And it also would have only worked because I'm so vocally against it as a valid strategy. It was a one time trick that didn't even play out the way I envisioned, and now people will expect such a thing is possible, when it's not a good idea. The rest of that game even proved it was way better to have me alive, so it's still a shitty strategy.

Look I still feel kinda bad (kinda lol as well) about the one time I accidentally killed Monty on day 1 with my lone vote that got a last minute second vote, and then I had to solo the game. I'm really not big on bussing anyone on day one, especially as something I would get the lion's share of the credit/blame for. If he's scum, it's bad that I never get murdered. If he's town, I look like shit and I did it to get rid of Logic, who is easy middlegame lynchbait. If I'm gonna trade myself it's gonna be for someone who isn't a more crucial mislynch down the line. Like dp101, for example, because he clears himself later on.

When I do bus my buddies it's day 2 onward, middlegame or late game. And even then, I almost always choose some buddies and defend them. You might have seen me do this before if you visit many sites. My scum game has a lot of repeating characteristics because they work well. They'll stay that way until they don't.


Pizza is a known busser, but given it's D1 and he's leading the bus, he and his partners individually don't get any advantage (since Pizza would have to die tonight).

This could be possible if Pizza is planning a 180 or the discovery of an urgent new wagon and abandons the Logic wagon. But it would happen so fast it would only be evident retroactively.
Truer words can't be found. I wrote the above before getting to this post, and damn.


Despite having played a fair few games together I don't have a clear meta on Cuth's style.

The main thing I've found consistent between games is his inconsistency within each game. He'll be waxing hard scummy to me, then flip it right around with a moment of keen insight or a burst of plausible mindset progression. And then go right back to looking scummy again.
Cuth is a scummy looking townie and I'd say fair at taking advantage of a mediocre town when he's scum, not necessarily quickly catchable.

I need a really specific thing to latch onto that makes him town. Otherwise he's a tough read and gives lots of false flags.

Like, the confidence I had that he was town in XCOM was partly mechanics related and partly related to a couple really specific brainwaves I felt confident I could bet the farm he couldn't fake. But that combo was needed when he pushed me, because it would have shaken me otherwise.

Think I'll cut this post here and continue.

[Logic]

Got busy with RL, and now have almost 1000 posts. Sheesh. If I survive, I should be more productive on the next day phase.

I'm going to park my vote on Choxorn, because it might mean I survive the day. If I don't, then C'est la vie.

If nothing else, I gotta do the most town thing I can, and save someone I know is a townie (me.)

Unvote: Kage

Vote: Choxorn.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (6): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Winston Hughes, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto


Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:
https://pending.me.uk/cd/bla_1507413600.png

[Askthepizzaguy]

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.

El Barto is kind of a wasted lynch for now, but it would be neutral policy lynch. Similar for Manasi.

Choxorn is edging toward old-school scummy lurking and popping-up.

Xiahou has only his entrance, and as the guy who invited him to play I want to see him play.

For now that sounds like a Logic lynch by default, which as I said is a case Pizza argued well.
I'm actually reading Monty town, so help me.

There are weird non-consensus tinfoils, but he's not flooding the game with them, and a lot of other things he says I can follow, reasoning wise.

I feel like I should be seeing more resistance / objections / tinfoils and weird pushes with bizarre unreadable reasoning that he's massively confident on, if he were scum.

I think he can still do this, but he'd have to be committed to it as a strategy, it doesn't evolve organically from his normal persona.

[Slaan]

That's a long post about why you'd never be scum in this situation... I didnt even bother to read all of it because self-meta analysis is often bad to begin with ;).

I'd agree that you and Logic are never w/w. Imo such a play would require you two to have agreed to in in wolfchat and then I'd expect Logic to still be around... only exception here would be that Logic knows he won't have time to play this game after all and says 'bus me hard' or smth... duno, ppl that know Logic (outside of pizza obviously) would that be a possibility? That's high level tinfoil territory though so maybe only something to consider going into lylo or w/e, just figured I'd share on this front.

You being w and Logic town? Sure why not, 'as wolf I'd never push a mislynch so hard' is not an unheard of defence... even townies often come to that conclusion - it's a valid strategy.

Doesnt mean that I think you are scum, just that I'm not one to buy such defences :)

[Kagemusha]

I sense something between GH and Winston. I cant point my finger into it yet, but i hope others will oit it under scrutiny as well. Maybe its just one of them, but my gut is giving strange vibes. GH can you elaborate concerning Chox and also wgat you think about Winston?

[Slaan]

Got busy with RL, and now have almost 1000 posts. Sheesh. If I survive, I should be more productive on the next day phase.

I'm going to park my vote on Choxorn, because it might mean I survive the day. If I don't, then C'est la vie.

If nothing else, I gotta do the most town thing I can, and save someone I know is a townie (me.)

Unvote: Kage

Vote: Choxorn.

Oh hey its Logic :). Can you tell me what made you townread me? I contributed 0 to the game and was 0 solvy and your explanation left quite a bit to be desired.

Are you gonna be around for the last 3h?

[Kagemusha]

I think Logig is far better lynch then Chox at this point. Lurk for a ehile and wait to get out eith evetual counter wagon. Cheess!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack, here are your notable D1 posts from Swords and Sorcery. You seem different somehow. I think you probably are. I have time to figure it out.

Yeah... even just skimming them I feel a strongly different vibe.

Good catch. I agree. I have Zack way way too high.

[Slaan]

I'm actually reading Monty town, so help me.

There are weird non-consensus tinfoils, but he's not flooding the game with them, and a lot of other things he says I can follow, reasoning wise.

I feel like I should be seeing more resistance / objections / tinfoils and weird pushes with bizarre unreadable reasoning that he's massively confident on, if he were scum.

I think he can still do this, but he'd have to be committed to it as a strategy, it doesn't evolve organically from his normal persona.

Can't help you on meta reads. Just that I though Monty was scummy after his first few posts but he bounced back nicely lately... don't have him highly as town but I'd need progression and flips to sort him out further.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack I'm kicking you out of my town until further notice. I think Monty is right about you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Can't help you on meta reads. Just that I though Monty was scummy after his first few posts but he bounced back nicely lately... don't have him highly as town but I'd need progression and flips to sort him out further.

Oh he is going to be among the most difficult reads you ever get.

I can show you some of his scum games if it helps, thing is, he's also got a town game that's slowly evolving towards what you're seeing in this game, and it used to look a lot more like his scum game, which is why I gave up on reading him for a long time.

I think his town game is actually getting separation now.

[Kagemusha]

I hate posting with phone. Having five thumbs on each hand does not help..

[Slaan]

I think Logig is far better lynch then Chox at this point. Lurk for a ehile and wait to get out eith evetual counter wagon. Cheess!

Hm, I'm torn tbh. Logic could've had real rl issues and if he can start being more active starting next day that would be good... Chox on the other hand seems to have displayed his commitment to this game and it doesnt look like it'll get better.... Then again my read on Logic is a bit stronger and his lynch would give us max infos after he was talked about so much so I'll stay on Logic me thinks

[Dp101]

Zack I'm kicking you out of my town until further notice. I think Monty is right about you.

Well I think this is the towniest he’s ever been in any game I’ve played with him. I haven’t gone through and checked in what ways it is different, but just because someone’s different doesn’t make them scum.

[Slaan]

Oh he is going to be among the most difficult reads you ever get.

I can show you some of his scum games if it helps, thing is, he's also got a town game that's slowly evolving towards what you're seeing in this game, and it used to look a lot more like his scum game, which is why I gave up on reading him for a long time.

I think his town game is actually getting separation now.

Hm k. Then we could just lynch him today and save us the trouble going forward? ;) (j/k in case it's requried)

I've also decided to not read up on older games of you guys, just don't have the time/WIM... mostly WIM ^^. I also feel its often better to gain meta by playing ppl than reading up on past games where you already know their alignment going in... not sure on that point though. If I make it to endgame I'll reconsider for the then still living players maybe but certainly not D1 :).

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't particularly feel like this thread turning into another exercise of someone screaming over and over about a single read, drowning everything else out, and it having a ~rand chance of actually being correct in the meantime.

At least Pizza's more cooperative about it than Kami.

Thanks for looking at Logic, but I think you missed one of my biggest points and didn't look for it.

You saw his posts in another game as town, when he accused people, does he not consistently just say this post is scummy this person is a wolf I think this makes you more townie, his questions if any are more direct and mean what they appear to mean on the surface?

That's a highly highly consistent quality of his town game. He doesn't ask rhetorical questions or questions that undermine people in that manner, he doesn't do passive aggression. He's not highly aggressive but when he does it, it's pointed, and in fact, he does far more aggression (despite how mild it feels) in games than defending himself or anyone else.

And all of that solving is pointed and direct, not passive aggression.

I get how you're arriving at the conclusion that I'm just tunneling because I am, but if I'm tunneling on the right person and you're missing the biggest reason why it's right, I feel like we missed the chance for our minds to arrive at the same place.

I won't ask you to look again, but it was a massive part of what I wanted you to look for and I don't think you were looking for it. You found other stuff and I believe you're town, but I still think you missed the damning stark difference.

[Askthepizzaguy]

this post feels like a wolf prepping for a wolf flip

Disagree.

I think Zack is realizing I'm getting that wolf flip despite the fact that he argued against it and is now looking for more scapegoats to push tomorrow.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think thats towny from Fred. Same thing happened in the wild west game that he started to feel sorry for the guy under immense pressure and fred was town there. Not that its not fakeable etc etc but it's in line with his prev town play so thats :top:

Agreed, plus Logic is just the kind of guy I'd feel really bad about badgering any further than I have. He's really sympathetic regardless of his alignment.

I like him a lot. Fred's reaction to his push feels really good.

[Dp101]

Disagree.

I think Zack is realizing I'm getting that wolf flip despite the fact that he argued against it and is now looking for more scapegoats to push tomorrow.

I feel that this statement comes from a tunneled perspective. You see it as coming from a wolf because you are already so certain of your push.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm still comfortable with my vote, but GH is giving me a scummy vibe too.

I don't care for this either. :no:

Yeah, despite my misgivings about EB, I think he shouldn't be lynched here today.

He's the low hanging fruit, seriously.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack
pizza
Monty
Fredwood
Dp101

Townpile.
What Zack has been doing with the early towncred looks worse and worse. I think he's trying to manipulate the town from his lofty perch in most people's town piles, and push bad lynches and defend the correct lynchees, since he won't get punished for it.

GH
Logic
El Barto
Manasi
choxorn

scumpile
Not GH at all, I don't think. Not Barto this early. I feel like he's just vulnerable and a possible get for the scums.

Otherwise we're really in close agreement.