17er Saints and Martyrs

[Raskolnikov]

Logic you can't be serious when you say you don't see why I am obvious villa. I'd rather die than hellbus a fun partner D1 and get us 3 irl more days to end the game lol

[Raskolnikov]

Benneh effectively out of his poor wolf range? I want to believe so. (thinking out loud, drunk tbh)

[Logic]

Logic you can't be serious when you say you don't see why I am obvious villa. I'd rather die than hellbus a fun partner D1 and get us 3 irl more days to end the game lol

I am 100% serious. I keep forgetting your posts. I don't forget you exist, I am just having trouble having your opinions stick in my head, since we never seem to interact with each other

Since we are both here now, let's chat a bit.

For a moment, ignore only my read on you. Where am I wrong, right, etc. I've dropped an opinion about everyone in game by now, so you've got many things to use as a launching off point.

Dissect it.

[nebjiamn]

Benneh effectively out of his poor wolf range?

https://media1.giphy.com/media/SQQ5VpVKhCM9O/giphy.gif

[Raskolnikov]

Well not now sorry. I am too boozed for that lol

Think you are fake friendo though. your read on Vanta, your read on me, your awkward opening, your trouble to get into the game for 2 third of D1. Tbh I'll get more time tmr and I will give your ISO a shot to try to pinpoint my problems with your slot or reeval if that's how I feel then. But rn it mostly down to it. (oh also yeah, wagonomics. Might be dumb but if you are villa, I guess you'd have been under much more contention at EOD1)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Ok, I suppose you're all owed some actual effort from me. I wanted to just vibe in this game and phaff around while other people actually did the solving, but events have taken their course and vibing ain't gonna cut it. So let's just do this, get it out of the way, and hope it's good enough for me to coast for the rest of the game until hopefully I get cleared through associatives or something so I don't have to do this again.

In this post I will discuss every player aside from Murska and Logic. This will be in no particular order.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/utxF0PQVKNeJG/giphy.gif


Rask/ladd

Don't think I need to belabor the point here. Town. Rask higher than ladd but it shouldn't matter.


Jan

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not the best Jan reader. He's a tricksy wolf who's fooled me at least once in the past (caveat: it was a mash, so transcribe it to this type of game at your peril) and I find myself naturally gravitating towards townreading his typical tone.

That said, we had two clear points of agreement on D1 that go beyond the typical "gud t0an" stuff that make me feel more confident about my Jan read at this point. The first was early in the game, re: Arctic's initial posting:


You are correct on me and I had the same very slight feeling about ender.

I personally read Arctic as over-the-top wolfy. It felt more like bait than an actual wolf. Which is why I was not too fond of Murskas vote.
Not only that it is the combo of entering the thread, voting the person who is "howling", and dipping out.
While others are more ... playful?

If you don't remember, Arctic had a corker of an entry D1 that kept oscillating between "plain old bad" and "self-aware about how bad it was but still persisting and still being bad". Back when I was still in my shitposting phase, I did spend some amount of thought on those posts and eventually decided it was a straight-up case of TWTBAW, and Jan came to the same conclusion as me without any sort of prompting from me (since, again, I was still in my shitposting phase).

The second was his mid-d1 post about Gemma:


Gemma is a really weird spot because she clearly joined the thread with a plan but never really did anything with it.

She enters thread by copying the same format someone else used earlier.
This is to some extend a call back to a joke, but also makes it clear she has read some of the thread and that this might not be an rvs vote.


After which there is talk about missing the rvs phase but wanting to shitpost. Which she didn't really do that much outside of 1 prepared post.

She then quotes me while I am talking about not wanting to play ww at this moment and asks this:


GH at this point has no real content and only shitposts. Really odd person to ask to be read. All of it felt like she had an agenda either towards me or gh or both but I was not sure what her alignment is.
She went into her initial posts with a plan and the plan was not shitposting. The shitposting was some dress up on the side.

Dunno just a thought that has been in my head ever since but never felt like there is a reason to push on it.

I'm not going to pretend I had the same thought as Jan here independently, but I *did* read Gemma's initial entry into the thread and had just a minor tingle of "huh" about it, and Jan putting it into this context was both a) a coherent thought and b) showed good thoughts about the thread and game as a whole. Gemma, to my knowledge has still not really addressed the crux of this point but I'll talk more about that later. I'll finish the Jan section by saying that he was also reasonably early on Syn (made several comments mid d1 about Syn "conceding" after sustaining the first major push from Rask that I don't think a wolf would say about a wolfbro right off the bat) and while his posts so far on D2 haven't been anything a good wolf couldn't fake, he's also given me no reason to doubt my good feelings about him from D1. Town.


Wisdom

Partly relying on old meta here, and this might out one of my old alts on MU but hell with it lol.

I played two games with Wisdom in 2021 (the year I stopped playing). The first was a team mafia game where we were both wolfbros and both in on the same day, d1. In that game, there were a lot of meandering observations, nothing questions, and a truly horrendous bus vote on me that even I, deep into my powerwolf meta, had a hard time with spinning even though I specifically made a post designed to clear all of my teammates currently bussing me (I deeply despise that game, in case you couldn't tell :laugh4:).

The second was a game a couple months later when I was on an alt, and Wisdom was more to the point, happy to lucky, and while they were a bit off-kilter in their solving in terms of how she worked with the consensus, there was still, you know, solving. I eventually helped mislunch her (I was town) later on in the game when she was ensconced in my POE, but even though her demise was telegraphed pretty early on in that day she was still cheerfully solving the entire time and I did have those niggling little vibes that I was going down the wrong path here, which I naturally ignored.

After a false start, Wisdom appears firmly in her town meta to me here.


benneh (nebjiamn)

Was quick to point out on multiple occasions on D1 that he was still well within both his ranges, which I agreed with at the time. I still agree with it now, 8-9 hours into D2 tbh. Out of the people generally not coming under fire, I feel like benneh's been the most skate-y. He's been content to just be chill, not super rock the boat much, and vibe with whoever happens to be in the thread at the time. (in other words he's seized by force the niche I wanted to occupy, and I will forever hate him for it :soapbox:) His biggest, most notable push on D2, has been Visor, which sure, Visor's a popular guy today, but I don't actually think he's pushing the game forward much.

There's been some testing the waters on Arctic here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854398&viewfull=1#post2053854398), Gemma here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854404&viewfull=1#post2053854404) but there's no followup with them and a bit later on he says his main disagreement with dya is that they put Arctic third from the bottom on a readslist. For the most part, he's been cool with just focusing in on the bottom group of the POE today.

Now, that's fine, considering I haven't done a damn thing today lol, and it could be benneh's just doing the standard villa thing of voicing some of his more outlier thoughts as he tries to focus on what's most likely going to be relevant at EOD, BUT! I also see a very possible explanation where he's seeding the thread and setting up for the future.

So I'll conclude this segment by saying that benneh's not out of either range by a longshot. Tinfoil town.


Arctic

Horrendous gamestart, discussed in Jan's section. Felt like TWTBAW to me. Arctic is in a weird position because, unless the MU social dynamics have changed since I mostly left the scene, Arctic is probably one of the more isolated folks in this specific playerlist (going off joindate this is Arctic's first Org game, for example). That's always gonna bring some awkwardness when you're a guest at the established club, so to speak, and that does have to be taken into account when reading into things. So let's set tone to the side for this and talk about his actual content.

We'll start with the negatives. These posts on Syn isn't great:


I don't really know what syn is doing and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do about half the game saying they sound normal and half the game saying they sound off cuz this means nothing to me


tbh ladd is probably mafia but idk if i care to prove it right now

syn is a fine shrug wagon if they aren't gonna play the game but the wagon comp on them doesn't really inspire confidence

dya's recent posts did nothing for me personally so i'm curious what the people who were insistent on letting them cook have to say about that

(previous two were midd1, the one below is eod1:)


if it's between logic/syn i'd just kill syn because it seems to me like they aren't going to give us anything more than what they have been this game judging from what they said pre-game and i'm never gonna find them villa if they are with this level of posting

but i still might vote gemma

There's been some talk about the "Syn skeptics", I'll call it, and I'll talk more about that later on in this post, but I think Arctic's stance on Syn has gone under the radar a bit and it's not great. We have a couple posts of the classic "wolf in a tough spot when dealing with a bro getting heat" where Arctic acknowledges the wagon because they have to, but then just kind of waves it off and goes about their business. They may have gotten taken by surprise by the Syn wagon in general because they expressed skepticism about both Rask and more notably ladd on d1, but otoh a wolf might be more in tune with threadflow stuff and try to work around it?

I have liked a number of Arctic's contributions. I feel like there's a real effort to get complete or near-complete stances on everyone in the game, and Arctic has also been one of the people beating the drum on Gemma, who I feel like has gotten lost in the shuffle and could very well be a wolf here. But the associatives toward Syn aren't great and bear monitoring for the future. Mixed, GTH town.


Hally

First, the overarching impression I get in this game is that hally is quite comfortable ITT. Hally's "peak" so to speak on MU coincided with the terminal stages of my decline so I never quite got the full decoder on their playstyle, but from what I can remember they were considerably more awkward in the thread when wolfing and I'm not really seeing much evidence of that here.

In terms of content, hally gets a minor point for being in agreement with myself and Jan over Arctic's entry posts (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853656#post2053853656) (and was even more on the nose with me in terms of it than Jan, fwiw), but later this translates to getting into it with Arctic a bit over Rask of all people, that's aged somewhat well.

There's actually not a lot in hally's reads beyond their chats with Arctic (they have since switched up to Arctic looking better from EOD1) and then their big push on Logic, which I won't be discussing here for raisins. There's not a lot of moving the game forward really, just chilling in the thread similar to benneh. No reason to dislike their posts but hally is definitely going with the flow for the most part. Tinfoil town, would probably rank a tick higher than benneh for nebulous + tonal reasons.


EnderWiggin

Ok, let's talk about the Syn vote. Rask was first on, in post #365 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853934&viewfull=1#post2053853934), after making a series of posts where he really honed in on his target. Syn's response, a single word, "mean", was post 366. Ender's vote came in at 367 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853936&viewfull=1#post2053853936), nakedly a pile-on, and remained there for the rest of d1. Syn picked up another vote from Murska an hour or two later and was tied for the lead (with Ender himself) as of Taffy's 24hr vote count (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853959&viewfull=1#post2053853959).

This was ender's rationale for doing so, as a tack-on to post 380:


Re: Syn. I know Rask has a ~good read on him, but I also was just sussing him so I wanted to see what happened when I joined Rask. I don't think Rask is as set as he says but the pressure/wagon will be a good way to find out.

He had some suspicion about Jan later on in d1, which I suppose could be read as testing the waters to see if he could get off, but Jan was pretty consensus town at that point. If he wanted off Syn, why not go to, like, [literally anyone in the me/Logic/dya/Gemma/etc general POE who was town]? This isn't a hypothetical w!benneh situation where he's setting stuff up for down the road, this would be a world where he just wants to get off a wagon that got too hot and not look terrible in the process, and this isn't what it looks like imo.

A little iconoclastic with a townread on dya with very little actual explanation here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854163#post2053854163), and that's about it for d1. He notably was around for EOD1 and could switch off Syn, but chose not too. Not sure how much I should read into this.

Has, in general, given off the impression that he's having a good time ITT, which I should probably be placing less emphasis on than I am. I am aware that he's come back in the thread D2 since I started writing this up, but I'm not gonna go over it with a fine toothed comb. Yet. Bottom line, I don't think the Syn vote was a bus, seems fine for now.


Gemma

Really need some new posts from them, feels like the fourth time I've gone over their exact same posts in the past few days with very little additional context.

Gemma is part of that group in general who have actually not said very much about the game as a whole. Others in it are Visor, Syn, and, I suppose, myself to some extent. They started off hot with a vote against me and giving off the impression it was serious with the following sequence:


Vote: GH

(real)


por que no los dos

whats your gh read tea leaves welcome


wdym for a normal player

like gh palying normally or

also why for hiso wn sake does he not loike woofing

but as Jan mentioned, I had not actually started playing the game at that point so that sequence was very much out of place as a whole. What was there to shade me about?

There's a number of reads sprinkled through Gemma's iso but they're all sporadic, mostly one-liners, and pretty disconnected from each other. Very doable for a wolf to fake, basically. There's some questioning, asking to elaborate on reads and the like, but there's not much if any actual follow-up. I'm trying to get a picture of Gemma's overall view of the gamestate from their iso and out of everybody I've looked at so far I'm just not seeing it really. It's all disjointed. Like I want to write more here because this is a slot of particular interest to me, but I just can't. POE, in danger of slipping beneath notice.


Vanta Black:

This one's an annoying one to pin down for me, because it's felt like Vanta's on the cusp of actually putting together a sustained sequence of thoughts that will help me get to where they're at with stuff... and then they dip. So let's work with what I can.


Okay, with absolutely very little meta to go on, in fact let's say none, I'm kinda townreading Raskol and Jan, kinda FOS on Arctic, Ladd, and Dyachie, and sorta null on everybody else. Also I guess Benneh is really Nebjiamn (my list came from the signup list).

I kinda go with vibes, at least early game, if you're wondering where this very lame reads list came from.

I do not agree with the dog name list. I would never name a dog something more than 2 syllables.

Sorry I haven't provided a lot of content, I got here late and was reading from the beginning.

Push me, I'll post more then.

Post 342, about 18 hours into the game. Not the worst look imo.


Between keeping the players straight in my head and trying to figure out how to get a votecount (ack, math? really?) I'm pretty much at sea here. To mix a metaphor.

Based on the last votecount I think I like the composition on Syn the best and would probably sheep that vote if I voted right now.

Post 516, something like 30 hours in. This is also pretty decent, correctly honing in on Syn but not looking especially bussy while doing so. Just a straight up "yeah Syn's voters seem cool, let's roll with this for now".


Now for some opinions.

Arctic’s entry pinged me, because it was just a “here I am, will play later” but then he continued to post. It just looked like trying too hard. He was immediately voted by Rask and Murska for these posts. They have both gone on to vote somebody else, oddly enough again it’s the same person (Syn). (as of right now) (I think)

Oddly enough I also would kinda like to vote Murska for opportunistic voting. This makes no sense because I think Rask is a villager and a sharp player and kinda wanta sheep Rask myself.

Hally, sorry I said I couldn’t remember any of your posts, because in fact I did remember that one elaborate pee pee poo poo thing. If that is some copypasta I haven’t seen it. NAI, but appreciated. Ya got me. Not voting Hally today.

I also kinda want to OMGUS Logic because it’s really hard for me to believe he honestly thinks I'm a wolf here. I could see his vote as a push, but when it came to who he really really thinks is a wolf? And he ends up on me? I'm not buying it. Logic had the same bad entry dynamic as Arctic, but at least didn’t keep apologizing for it.

While I don’t know that dyachei is wrong I wasn’t wild about the way he kept shading Arctic without putting a vote down, but then he finally did.

So let’s see here, who will it be?

vote: Logic

EOD/SOD falls at a time when I would literally have to stay up all night to be here for it. Which I very nearly have, but there are limits. If I'm still alive tomorrow I promise to do better. I've just been on the back foot the whole of D1 here. If I'm not here, well sorry for my undistinguished D1.

Post 662, a bit under 3 hours before EOD. This is... less good, mainly because it deviates from the flipped wolf (Syn), doesn't mention Syn at all when Vanta had previously been open to voting Syn, and there was also a promise to read Syn and ladd that was never followed up on. Now, obviously Logic is unflipped so we don't know if Vanta was going from a wolf to a different wolf, but Syn was very much in contention and Vanta did go elsewhere, specifically the counter.

Verdict here is mixed. I did like their earlier posts on Syn that I quoted, but at a certain point, vibes can only take you so far. Priority slot if Logic is town. Probably ok if Logic is mafia.


dyachei/Visor

I feel like, holistically, there has to be exactly one in these two. Along with Arctic (and myself, but I'm town), they were probably the two most notable "Syn skeptics" who basically said some variant of "meh Syn is rand, I don't care". I'm gonna make an assumption here that the D1 elimination was not a major inflection point of the game. Regardless of whether Syn actively gave the green light to bus or not, the wolves had to know that Syn was not long for the world, even if they survived D1. Could be D2, could be D3, could be a vig shot, but Syn was always going down at some point. This was not a slot you stick your neck out for, basically.

Since this was not a slot you stick your neck out for, I'm going to make a second assumption: that the wolves did their traditional strategy when dealing with a drawing-dead partner: spread out and hide in the numbers rather than put all your eggs in once basket. Take differing, if not opposing, viewpoints about major stuff. Considering Syn's standing in the thread, I think Visor's and dya's stances on Syn are too similar for them to both be on the same team. They both exerted roughly equivalent efforts to save Syn: dya by shopping around for a counterwagon at EOD, Visor by trying to create one a few hours prior. I don't see 75% of this mafia team (counting Syn) to be this invested in keeping Syn alive, and I don't think they're both town either just from vague gamestate feels, so we're left with one in two.

Each has problems. Visor has been generally underwhelming, lacking that joie de vivre as a number of people have mentioned. I wish he had some D2 posts to his name so I can better get a handle on him, because I think that will help me, but what's down so far can charitably described as "incomplete", I think. His most recent outright stance on Logic was here:


Logics posts on the last page are still bad lmao

I'll be back around EOD but won't be there for it obv

But later he pooh pooh'd a Gemma readslist (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854222&viewfull=1#post2053854222) that effectively had Logic as null (frustrating for me looking back) and then pivoted to going after Murska in his final sequence of posts on D1, without much elaboration, ending in directly appealing to Zack and myself for wagon support.


Zack
GeneralHankerchief

kill murska

All of this is in his wheelhouse as either alignment, as I've already discussed. The main issue is that there's just more fire, more followable a-to-b-to-c progression when he's done it as town. Could this be because he's got other stuff going on? Certainly. But it could also be because he's got other stuff going on while having randed wolf. I don't want to get this read wrong because I've already pissed off Zack itg and don't want to do it to the other person I chat the most with, but realistically speaking I can't point to anything concrete Visor has done in the game and say with a straight face, "this is villagery".

As for dya, it's very simple: dya took an approach to me that was extremely similar to one they took to me as w/v (they were the w) in an Org game from a few years back. ladd pointed this out already on d1 I believe, but I'll go and grab the posts for comparison:

Previous game (from 2019):

kind of a weird read but I kind of like that GH stepped away from the game after the hydra game ended. feels like if he were wolfing he'd be more likely to try hard after a loss there


you really think so?

he seemed pretty tired to wolf by the end

also see ya, zack. Hopefully we are still both around tmr but our free times this game don't seem to coincide much


He was but like...I feel like he makes himself tryhard as a wolf


he powerwolfs to a fault. just ask him about mion and shion...

This game:

don't tell GH but I am stoked he's playing again

also I think he's v so far but we're still in shitposting


based on what?


gut feeling is part of it

also he's not tryharding and like...he tends to when he wolfs because he doesn't want to let his team down


that's why i gave a caveat

GH tries harder as a wolf though and he likely would have tried to do something by now if he were a wolf. The very fact he's doing nothing is kind of a good look


Don’t really like dyas read on GH for reasons Zack kinda outlined and again I’m kinda frustrated he made the point before me but also just kinda accepting he’s a villager for pre-melding on my thoughts before I catch up with the thread

I just kinda think at best the read is wanting but I also feel like dya would temper the wanting a bit this early. Also feels like a struggly way to get into the thread groove

i I don’t wanna harp on it cause I’ll feel bad if wrong but ya


time to feel bad then

It's a real read I have and yeah there's some want there because the best time I've ever had in a game was when Jan and GH were both village in 2017's anni

But it's also based on what I know about GH and just because it's wanting doesn't make it less valid

This on its own isn't the full picture, largely because the read is correct and for the right reasons, but I will specifically note that by the time I stopped playing in 2021, dya was typically gaining early accurate reads on me NOT from my investment/seriousness level or lack thereof, but from my early tone. They were really good at pummeling me for awkward openings as a wolf and did not hesitate to tell me as such to the point where I was seriously strategizing about entering the thread late as all alignments just to dodge that read (until I stopped playing, of course). So dya reading me for this reason, here, and not mentioning the other aspect, does stick out to me.

As for the aspects of their posting beyond me, it's mixed. I already talked about the Syn stuff, it's no better or worse than Visor's imo, so that's a wash. In terms of the Arctic thing, dya is capable of pulling that off (both the read and the argument) as either alignment and I'm not able to get a lean on that either way in isolation. The turnaround on Logic on D2 to me is a bit awkward. I can sort of see the argument dya makes but it's causing me to make one too many jumps in progression to get there and that's not great. Like it went from "I think GH is town > GH says Logic is town > Zack I know you say Logic's a wolf but I'm aware of GH's history with Logic and not yours so I'm placing higher emphasis on that" to "if Logic was villaging, the wolves would have been able to push him over Syn at EOD > so GH is a wolf with him huh" and I feel like there are a number of perfectly plausible explanations for why Syn went over D1 that went unaddressed and I have a hard time with dya not really paying lip service to those, it feels like they ran the numbers overnight and realized that I had to be a miselim if they wanted to win the game and acted accordingly (Logic's alignment still pending ofc).

Final verdict, one in dya/Visor, leaning dya right now.

---

Overall readslist, excepting Logic and myself, look something like this:

Claimed PR:
Murska

Town:
Rask
ladd

Wisdom
Jan

Tinfoil town:
Hally

benneh

On the right side of the POE:
Arctic
Ender

Dependent on Logic's flip:
Vanta Black

POE:
Gemma

POE, exactly 1 of the two:
Visor
dyachei



I'm going to eat dinner and play video games now.

[Hally]

i don’t wanna jump the gun but ender’s posts so far today are super rough ngl


I absolutely hated the self-meta post from Arctic tbh. It felt like a standard "I could do better and knew it and now people are undervaluing that."


Also someone posted something about "Maybe there WASN'T bussers and people are reading too much into the kill!" which... feels very wolfy to me.

I'm trying to find it currently but I read it when I was on my phone at 7am and blearily getting ready for work.


Okay found it.

It's Arctic as well.

Is Hally gonna kill me if I vote Arctic?

Find out in... whenever Hally checks again.

Vote: Arctic


I suppose this is where I mention that I hate "Never busses" metas because they get a free win out of bussing and I just don't like that.

Also on that note "Genuinely working through the game" maybe but his takes have existed in that weird liminal space where it's off the wall but not like the Wisdom townread "At odds with thread". They seem aware of thread but fighting against the flow. (See my comment about their "but maybe it's not because wolves bussed? :plead:" post.)
this push is genuinely terrible lol

his main wolf read on D2 after a wolf flip boils down to self metaing and NK speculation

the last part in particular just seems like nonsense? arctic’s main wolf reads afaict are visor, gh and gemma which is perfectly in line with the rest of thread so i don’t get what he’s talking about or how it would be wolfy even if it was true


also him trying to push ladd but backing off immediately when he gets pushback does not spark joy ~:handball:

[Wisdom]

GH- That terrible hydra bus still keeps me awake at night. It's the main reason I started learning how to powerwolf and I think that I since learned the difference between a strategic and a stupid bus.

That said, here's a 3 year late apology for how I treated slot that game.

[Logic]

Ok, I suppose you're all owed some actual effort from me. I wanted to just vibe in this game and phaff around while other people actually did the solving, but events have taken their course and vibing ain't gonna cut it. So let's just do this, get it out of the way, and hope it's good enough for me to coast for the rest of the game until hopefully I get cleared through associatives or something so I don't have to do this again.

In this post I will discuss every player aside from Murska and Logic. This will be in no particular order.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/utxF0PQVKNeJG/giphy.gif


Rask/ladd

Don't think I need to belabor the point here. Town. Rask higher than ladd but it shouldn't matter.


Jan

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not the best Jan reader. He's a tricksy wolf who's fooled me at least once in the past (caveat: it was a mash, so transcribe it to this type of game at your peril) and I find myself naturally gravitating towards townreading his typical tone.

That said, we had two clear points of agreement on D1 that go beyond the typical "gud t0an" stuff that make me feel more confident about my Jan read at this point. The first was early in the game, re: Arctic's initial posting:



If you don't remember, Arctic had a corker of an entry D1 that kept oscillating between "plain old bad" and "self-aware about how bad it was but still persisting and still being bad". Back when I was still in my shitposting phase, I did spend some amount of thought on those posts and eventually decided it was a straight-up case of TWTBAW, and Jan came to the same conclusion as me without any sort of prompting from me (since, again, I was still in my shitposting phase).

The second was his mid-d1 post about Gemma:



I'm not going to pretend I had the same thought as Jan here independently, but I *did* read Gemma's initial entry into the thread and had just a minor tingle of "huh" about it, and Jan putting it into this context was both a) a coherent thought and b) showed good thoughts about the thread and game as a whole. Gemma, to my knowledge has still not really addressed the crux of this point but I'll talk more about that later. I'll finish the Jan section by saying that he was also reasonably early on Syn (made several comments mid d1 about Syn "conceding" after sustaining the first major push from Rask that I don't think a wolf would say about a wolfbro right off the bat) and while his posts so far on D2 haven't been anything a good wolf couldn't fake, he's also given me no reason to doubt my good feelings about him from D1. Town.


Wisdom

Partly relying on old meta here, and this might out one of my old alts on MU but hell with it lol.

I played two games with Wisdom in 2021 (the year I stopped playing). The first was a team mafia game where we were both wolfbros and both in on the same day, d1. In that game, there were a lot of meandering observations, nothing questions, and a truly horrendous bus vote on me that even I, deep into my powerwolf meta, had a hard time with spinning even though I specifically made a post designed to clear all of my teammates currently bussing me (I deeply despise that game, in case you couldn't tell :laugh4:).

The second was a game a couple months later when I was on an alt, and Wisdom was more to the point, happy to lucky, and while they were a bit off-kilter in their solving in terms of how she worked with the consensus, there was still, you know, solving. I eventually helped mislunch her (I was town) later on in the game when she was ensconced in my POE, but even though her demise was telegraphed pretty early on in that day she was still cheerfully solving the entire time and I did have those niggling little vibes that I was going down the wrong path here, which I naturally ignored.

After a false start, Wisdom appears firmly in her town meta to me here.


benneh (nebjiamn)

Was quick to point out on multiple occasions on D1 that he was still well within both his ranges, which I agreed with at the time. I still agree with it now, 8-9 hours into D2 tbh. Out of the people generally not coming under fire, I feel like benneh's been the most skate-y. He's been content to just be chill, not super rock the boat much, and vibe with whoever happens to be in the thread at the time. (in other words he's seized by force the niche I wanted to occupy, and I will forever hate him for it :soapbox:) His biggest, most notable push on D2, has been Visor, which sure, Visor's a popular guy today, but I don't actually think he's pushing the game forward much.

There's been some testing the waters on Arctic here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854398&viewfull=1#post2053854398), Gemma here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854404&viewfull=1#post2053854404) but there's no followup with them and a bit later on he says his main disagreement with dya is that they put Arctic third from the bottom on a readslist. For the most part, he's been cool with just focusing in on the bottom group of the POE today.

Now, that's fine, considering I haven't done a damn thing today lol, and it could be benneh's just doing the standard villa thing of voicing some of his more outlier thoughts as he tries to focus on what's most likely going to be relevant at EOD, BUT! I also see a very possible explanation where he's seeding the thread and setting up for the future.

So I'll conclude this segment by saying that benneh's not out of either range by a longshot. Tinfoil town.


Arctic

Horrendous gamestart, discussed in Jan's section. Felt like TWTBAW to me. Arctic is in a weird position because, unless the MU social dynamics have changed since I mostly left the scene, Arctic is probably one of the more isolated folks in this specific playerlist (going off joindate this is Arctic's first Org game, for example). That's always gonna bring some awkwardness when you're a guest at the established club, so to speak, and that does have to be taken into account when reading into things. So let's set tone to the side for this and talk about his actual content.

We'll start with the negatives. These posts on Syn isn't great:





(previous two were midd1, the one below is eod1:)



There's been some talk about the "Syn skeptics", I'll call it, and I'll talk more about that later on in this post, but I think Arctic's stance on Syn has gone under the radar a bit and it's not great. We have a couple posts of the classic "wolf in a tough spot when dealing with a bro getting heat" where Arctic acknowledges the wagon because they have to, but then just kind of waves it off and goes about their business. They may have gotten taken by surprise by the Syn wagon in general because they expressed skepticism about both Rask and more notably ladd on d1, but otoh a wolf might be more in tune with threadflow stuff and try to work around it?

I have liked a number of Arctic's contributions. I feel like there's a real effort to get complete or near-complete stances on everyone in the game, and Arctic has also been one of the people beating the drum on Gemma, who I feel like has gotten lost in the shuffle and could very well be a wolf here. But the associatives toward Syn aren't great and bear monitoring for the future. Mixed, GTH town.


Hally

First, the overarching impression I get in this game is that hally is quite comfortable ITT. Hally's "peak" so to speak on MU coincided with the terminal stages of my decline so I never quite got the full decoder on their playstyle, but from what I can remember they were considerably more awkward in the thread when wolfing and I'm not really seeing much evidence of that here.

In terms of content, hally gets a minor point for being in agreement with myself and Jan over Arctic's entry posts (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853656#post2053853656) (and was even more on the nose with me in terms of it than Jan, fwiw), but later this translates to getting into it with Arctic a bit over Rask of all people, that's aged somewhat well.

There's actually not a lot in hally's reads beyond their chats with Arctic (they have since switched up to Arctic looking better from EOD1) and then their big push on Logic, which I won't be discussing here for raisins. There's not a lot of moving the game forward really, just chilling in the thread similar to benneh. No reason to dislike their posts but hally is definitely going with the flow for the most part. Tinfoil town, would probably rank a tick higher than benneh for nebulous + tonal reasons.


EnderWiggin

Ok, let's talk about the Syn vote. Rask was first on, in post #365 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853934&viewfull=1#post2053853934), after making a series of posts where he really honed in on his target. Syn's response, a single word, "mean", was post 366. Ender's vote came in at 367 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853936&viewfull=1#post2053853936), nakedly a pile-on, and remained there for the rest of d1. Syn picked up another vote from Murska an hour or two later and was tied for the lead (with Ender himself) as of Taffy's 24hr vote count (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853959&viewfull=1#post2053853959).

This was ender's rationale for doing so, as a tack-on to post 380:



He had some suspicion about Jan later on in d1, which I suppose could be read as testing the waters to see if he could get off, but Jan was pretty consensus town at that point. If he wanted off Syn, why not go to, like, [literally anyone in the me/Logic/dya/Gemma/etc general POE who was town]? This isn't a hypothetical w!benneh situation where he's setting stuff up for down the road, this would be a world where he just wants to get off a wagon that got too hot and not look terrible in the process, and this isn't what it looks like imo.

A little iconoclastic with a townread on dya with very little actual explanation here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854163#post2053854163), and that's about it for d1. He notably was around for EOD1 and could switch off Syn, but chose not too. Not sure how much I should read into this.

Has, in general, given off the impression that he's having a good time ITT, which I should probably be placing less emphasis on than I am. I am aware that he's come back in the thread D2 since I started writing this up, but I'm not gonna go over it with a fine toothed comb. Yet. Bottom line, I don't think the Syn vote was a bus, seems fine for now.


Gemma

Really need some new posts from them, feels like the fourth time I've gone over their exact same posts in the past few days with very little additional context.

Gemma is part of that group in general who have actually not said very much about the game as a whole. Others in it are Visor, Syn, and, I suppose, myself to some extent. They started off hot with a vote against me and giving off the impression it was serious with the following sequence:







but as Jan mentioned, I had not actually started playing the game at that point so that sequence was very much out of place as a whole. What was there to shade me about?

There's a number of reads sprinkled through Gemma's iso but they're all sporadic, mostly one-liners, and pretty disconnected from each other. Very doable for a wolf to fake, basically. There's some questioning, asking to elaborate on reads and the like, but there's not much if any actual follow-up. I'm trying to get a picture of Gemma's overall view of the gamestate from their iso and out of everybody I've looked at so far I'm just not seeing it really. It's all disjointed. Like I want to write more here because this is a slot of particular interest to me, but I just can't. POE, in danger of slipping beneath notice.


Vanta Black:

This one's an annoying one to pin down for me, because it's felt like Vanta's on the cusp of actually putting together a sustained sequence of thoughts that will help me get to where they're at with stuff... and then they dip. So let's work with what I can.



Post 342, about 18 hours into the game. Not the worst look imo.



Post 516, something like 30 hours in. This is also pretty decent, correctly honing in on Syn but not looking especially bussy while doing so. Just a straight up "yeah Syn's voters seem cool, let's roll with this for now".



Post 662, a bit under 3 hours before EOD. This is... less good, mainly because it deviates from the flipped wolf (Syn), doesn't mention Syn at all when Vanta had previously been open to voting Syn, and there was also a promise to read Syn and ladd that was never followed up on. Now, obviously Logic is unflipped so we don't know if Vanta was going from a wolf to a different wolf, but Syn was very much in contention and Vanta did go elsewhere, specifically the counter.

Verdict here is mixed. I did like their earlier posts on Syn that I quoted, but at a certain point, vibes can only take you so far. Priority slot if Logic is town. Probably ok if Logic is mafia.


dyachei/Visor

I feel like, holistically, there has to be exactly one in these two. Along with Arctic (and myself, but I'm town), they were probably the two most notable "Syn skeptics" who basically said some variant of "meh Syn is rand, I don't care". I'm gonna make an assumption here that the D1 elimination was not a major inflection point of the game. Regardless of whether Syn actively gave the green light to bus or not, the wolves had to know that Syn was not long for the world, even if they survived D1. Could be D2, could be D3, could be a vig shot, but Syn was always going down at some point. This was not a slot you stick your neck out for, basically.

Since this was not a slot you stick your neck out for, I'm going to make a second assumption: that the wolves did their traditional strategy when dealing with a drawing-dead partner: spread out and hide in the numbers rather than put all your eggs in once basket. Take differing, if not opposing, viewpoints about major stuff. Considering Syn's standing in the thread, I think Visor's and dya's stances on Syn are too similar for them to both be on the same team. They both exerted roughly equivalent efforts to save Syn: dya by shopping around for a counterwagon at EOD, Visor by trying to create one a few hours prior. I don't see 75% of this mafia team (counting Syn) to be this invested in keeping Syn alive, and I don't think they're both town either just from vague gamestate feels, so we're left with one in two.

Each has problems. Visor has been generally underwhelming, lacking that joie de vivre as a number of people have mentioned. I wish he had some D2 posts to his name so I can better get a handle on him, because I think that will help me, but what's down so far can charitably described as "incomplete", I think. His most recent outright stance on Logic was here:



But later he pooh pooh'd a Gemma readslist (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854222&viewfull=1#post2053854222) that effectively had Logic as null (frustrating for me looking back) and then pivoted to going after Murska in his final sequence of posts on D1, without much elaboration, ending in directly appealing to Zack and myself for wagon support.



All of this is in his wheelhouse as either alignment, as I've already discussed. The main issue is that there's just more fire, more followable a-to-b-to-c progression when he's done it as town. Could this be because he's got other stuff going on? Certainly. But it could also be because he's got other stuff going on while having randed wolf. I don't want to get this read wrong because I've already pissed off Zack itg and don't want to do it to the other person I chat the most with, but realistically speaking I can't point to anything concrete Visor has done in the game and say with a straight face, "this is villagery".

As for dya, it's very simple: dya took an approach to me that was extremely similar to one they took to me as w/v (they were the w) in an Org game from a few years back. ladd pointed this out already on d1 I believe, but I'll go and grab the posts for comparison:

Previous game (from 2019):








This game:












This on its own isn't the full picture, largely because the read is correct and for the right reasons, but I will specifically note that by the time I stopped playing in 2021, dya was typically gaining early accurate reads on me NOT from my investment/seriousness level or lack thereof, but from my early tone. They were really good at pummeling me for awkward openings as a wolf and did not hesitate to tell me as such to the point where I was seriously strategizing about entering the thread late as all alignments just to dodge that read (until I stopped playing, of course). So dya reading me for this reason, here, and not mentioning the other aspect, does stick out to me.

As for the aspects of their posting beyond me, it's mixed. I already talked about the Syn stuff, it's no better or worse than Visor's imo, so that's a wash. In terms of the Arctic thing, dya is capable of pulling that off (both the read and the argument) as either alignment and I'm not able to get a lean on that either way in isolation. The turnaround on Logic on D2 to me is a bit awkward. I can sort of see the argument dya makes but it's causing me to make one too many jumps in progression to get there and that's not great. Like it went from "I think GH is town > GH says Logic is town > Zack I know you say Logic's a wolf but I'm aware of GH's history with Logic and not yours so I'm placing higher emphasis on that" to "if Logic was villaging, the wolves would have been able to push him over Syn at EOD > so GH is a wolf with him huh" and I feel like there are a number of perfectly plausible explanations for why Syn went over D1 that went unaddressed and I have a hard time with dya not really paying lip service to those, it feels like they ran the numbers overnight and realized that I had to be a miselim if they wanted to win the game and acted accordingly (Logic's alignment still pending ofc).

Final verdict, one in dya/Visor, leaning dya right now.

---

Overall readslist, excepting Logic and myself, look something like this:

Claimed PR:
Murska

Town:
Rask
ladd

Wisdom
Jan

Tinfoil town:
Hally

benneh

On the right side of the POE:
Arctic
Ender

Dependent on Logic's flip:
Vanta Black

POE:
Gemma

POE, exactly 1 of the two:
Visor
dyachei



I'm going to eat dinner and play video games now.

I read the GH wall, and I think with a single exception, looks holistically consistent.

The words used to describe Arctic don't quite seem to line up with his final call there.

[dyachei]

Does your read on me really boil down to you expected me to.make a tone read on you after 3 years of not playing games with you or even seeing you around much at all?

I think that's a pretty unreasonable expectation.

21/50

[Murska]

In this post I will discuss every player aside from Murska and Logic. This will be in no particular order.


This makes me sad.

Seriously though, nice effortpost. good to see where your head's at.

[nebjiamn]

He's been content to just be chill, not super rock the boat much

idt much needs to be rocked today. by my estimation, the lunch is ~always between visor and logic and i am a big fan of those wagons (moreso visor atm). but i also don't think this is accurate? dare i say i was the person who first started clearing and building what is now the accepted towncore for the game in rask/jan/ladd(and previously zack) and even hally a bit

i also pushed on you and i think you'd probly agree regardless of ur alignment that's not a 'don't rock the boat' push for anyone in this list


as for the rest of your list i don't really get why you're leaning dya over visor here even though i read your whys. i feel like ur stuck on something with them that probably doesn't matter but ur giving visor the benefit of the doubt* when i think he deserves it far less than dya rn?

*i know you're not actually giving visor 'the benefit of the doubt' since you called that dichotomy to have a wolf but i hope my point is clear

[nebjiamn]

id probly townclear logic right now just off the fact that he's leading in posts lol

he's well past the give up stage isn't he

ok this is dumb

[Logic]

id probly townclear logic right now just off the fact that he's leading in posts lol

he's well past the give up stage isn't he

ok this is dumb

I wouldn't start there, if I were you.

I'm well past my old "low volume equals scumtell."

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207851955247128616/12hr_Vote_Count.png?ex=65e126ca&is=65ceb1ca&hm=232747bbd3969ba5b75000f7ca1aa0374f8f9e834134be6c8307c1e15979905d&


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyVNaLmVrew

How tf is there another character called "Moist"?!


Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh, Hally
Dyachei (1) : Logic
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Arctic (1) : Ender

Haven't voted: Visor, Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, Jan, GH, Gemma

Haven't posted today: Gemma, Visor

Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:

Vote: Visor
Vote: Visor
Vote: Dya
Vote: Visor
vote: visor
vote: logic
Vote: Arctic


Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207868357811114076/image.png?ex=65e13611&is=65cec111&hm=dae64d3186993d76dd97e36ec9eef1f03fa5259bf346b5bb817f5aedc5ab843d&

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207733558546800650/image.png?ex=65e0b886&is=65ce4386&hm=24f2d002f1563fc4444f60340aab88f35e10074608eda1b67adf3fa442ff1365&


This is 3am. You're all spoiled, and you owe me flowers.

[EnderWiggin]

agreed.

I'd reserve judgement on your mum though. (tbh I fail to see a world where Ladd is a wolf with respect to his treatment of Syn)

Think Arctic's reaction to some of my posts at EOD was villagery

Yeah I've been poked about my inability to remember Ladd's early push before the vote by a few people already.

I'll do a reread of EOD but I still don't want Arctic to dip under the radar.




the last part in particular just seems like nonsense? arctic’s main wolf reads afaict are visor, gh and gemma which is perfectly in line with the rest of thread so i don’t get what he’s talking about or how it would be wolfy even if it was true


also him trying to push ladd but backing off immediately when he gets pushback does not spark joy ~:handball:

To answer the top: I'm not explicitly talking about his wolfreads. I'm talking about the flow/understanding of the game esp around the read on the night kills. (If he's wolf he'd know wolves have bussed and a bunch of townies saying wolves probably bussed isn't good for them so a soft wristed attempt to push back on that is in wolves interest.)

Had nothing to do with pushback. I'm pretty sure only Ladd had really responded when I started backing off. It was Ladd pointing out that I'd completely misremembered something (although not to the extent he remembered either =P) that made me realise the basis for my thought was bunk.

And yes this does make twice now I've misremembered stuff about Ladd so maybe I need to stop posting there before re-reading.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Following up, I've read/reread Ender's d2 posts from a few hours ago and they seem decent enough to me, not gonna move him up a tier in my reads but don't really have any interest in moving him down either. :yes:

Onto responses to my big post:


Does your read on me really boil down to you expected me to.make a tone read on you after 3 years of not playing games with you or even seeing you around much at all?

I think that's a pretty unreasonable expectation.

21/50

No. It is an aspect of it. It is not the full picture, but it is part of the picture. If you genuinely came away from that post with that thought that that aspect was the main crux of my case against you, I apologize, that was not my intent. It was a combination of that + me not fully believing your turnaround on Logic using the stated reasoning + my belief that there's one in you/Visor and, yes, perhaps me giving Visor somewhat of the benefit of the doubt as benneh mentioned + general POE stuff (which also plays a part in me thinking there's exactly one in you/Visor and not just the both of you being v/v, because then who are the wolves lol).


idt much needs to be rocked today. by my estimation, the lunch is ~always between visor and logic and i am a big fan of those wagons (moreso visor atm). but i also don't think this is accurate? dare i say i was the person who first started clearing and building what is now the accepted towncore for the game in rask/jan/ladd(and previously zack) and even hally a bit

i also pushed on you and i think you'd probly agree regardless of ur alignment that's not a 'don't rock the boat' push for anyone in this list


as for the rest of your list i don't really get why you're leaning dya over visor here even though i read your whys. i feel like ur stuck on something with them that probably doesn't matter but ur giving visor the benefit of the doubt* when i think he deserves it far less than dya rn?

*i know you're not actually giving visor 'the benefit of the doubt' since you called that dichotomy to have a wolf but i hope my point is clear

I'll admit that I did not concentrate on the "big part in building the towncore" aspect of your posts when going back over your stuff (and I don't want to do it now because I've already spent too much time as it is going back over stuff), so I'll straight up give you THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT on that one. However, in terms of the "pushing GH not being a 'don't rock the boat' example", I'm gonna push back on that - I started catching heat to various degrees shortly after I actually started playing this game for real and I was quite pushable for a good period of time back in 2020/21 even before I stopped playing. You may not be aware of this, but others itg (ladd, hally, probably dya?) can attest to as much.

As for giving Visor the benefit of the doubt, probably fair. Zack/me getting as heated as it did on d1 did shake me up a bit and it's probably spilling over. I'll see how he posts once he comes back and go from there.

[EnderWiggin]

Wild change of mind time.

We veering at 360 speeds on this road.

Vote: Gemma

So I was rereading D1 to get a feel of Arctic (And hopefully a case) when I started reading Gemma posts and have now decided that her townreading me when I was feeling attacked has meant I've ignored her slot probably more than I should've?

[dyachei]

so why are you giving visor benefit of the doubt while you assume I should be able to tone read you this far out

My turn around on logic was because zack died repping a very strong wolf read there and my reason for v reading you was not the strongest reason to begin with, though I did believe it day 1.

I've done a lot more than visor has that should make me readable

22/50

[Logic]

I'm now going to give opinions on some of my current blind spots after looking in their ISOs, starting with the lowest posters.

This order shall be
Murska (claimed doc)
Gemma (I townread early and haven't revisited)
Wisdom (I think I was last on a "slightly sus" read)

First up, Murska:

Murska's opening in p#84 is getting into the game immediately (and he says as much.) I like that he's got opinions right out of the gate.
The slightly hedgey wolfread of arctic in p#89 that early feels a bit odd. Putting a pin in this to recheck arctic's early posts in my next entry for this format, as I've got him in my "blindspots" as well.
I like murska's counter to Jan in p#94. I think this looks like he's invested in solving the game, albeit a tad on the shallow side.
P#155 looks to be spewing Rask and benneh town if murska wolf (though everyone else seems to be dead set on that Rask read regardless.)
P#371 is the vote for syn, (I didn't see an earlier vote, but this post claims that murska was voting elsewhere prior) and I have no idea where in the wagon he ended up. I don't think the words of suspicion towards ender quite line up with the vote cast against syn, as murska calls it out explicitly as "see what happens." It's a bit laissez faire, so if the syn wagon was already taking off, I don't know if I give this vote any credit
Edit in so as to not retype everything above Murska's actual opening post is a vote for arctic, the one I call opening post above was the first because the post count cutoff is set to 25, and Murska has 26 posts at the time of my writing this post. End line item edit
P#377 I like the "WTF bro" directed at Jan. It makes me think not w/w, but I think it's softball enough that this could be thrown at a partner. (At this point, this is not commentary on me thinking Jan and murska are actually a team, this is me sharing my thoughts as I have them)
P#379 I don't like this slight backtrack. (It's barely a backtrack) but it's fairly defensive. Considering he just got on jans case about being defensive, I'm chalking this up more to indignant villager than anything else. Towny hypocriticism, I guess.
P#546 p#549 p#567 meh. Not really seeing anything AI about these three
P#697 is the claim, (and I feel like a bad friend, because I either forgot or didn't know that murska was Euro)
P#721 is where murska's reads are 30 minutes to EOD
P#725, p#729, p#760 don't look good to me, but I'm biased as I'm the subject of this switch. I kinda don't think he believes the final vote ending in syn, based on what he said in the prior two posts.
P#780 SOD protective claim on Rask

And at this point I've lost motivation to finish this ISO, let alone two more. So here's my post up to this point.

[EnderWiggin]

why tho


he called me based


ur based


:((

Gemma vote is partially because of these posts. I figured I should probably post these instead of just naked changing votes.

[GeneralHankerchief]

so why are you giving visor benefit of the doubt while you assume I should be able to tone read you this far out

My turn around on logic was because zack died repping a very strong wolf read there and my reason for v reading you was not the strongest reason to begin with, though I did believe it day 1.

I've done a lot more than visor has that should make me readable

22/50

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

---

As for your stated turnaround on Logic, I get what you're saying, but I feel like there are a number of reasons why Zack could have died last night as discussed here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854359&viewfull=1#post2053854359), and it felt like you just kind of plowed ahead with your reasoning without even acknowledging the what-I-find-to-be-very-plausible alternatives, which conveniently shoves me near the bottom of your POE. And let's be real here, if you're a wolf, you know I'm a mislunch you HAVE to have unless you've got a deep partner.

(inb4 "I could say the same about you" - yes, you could! isn't mafia fun! :freak:)

[GeneralHankerchief]

burning a post to say that I've still got this cold that I can't shake so I'll be heading to bed early again. Will be around sporadically for the next half hourish, and then dreamland.

[dyachei]

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

---

As for your stated turnaround on Logic, I get what you're saying, but I feel like there are a number of reasons why Zack could have died last night as discussed here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854359&viewfull=1#post2053854359), and it felt like you just kind of plowed ahead with your reasoning without even acknowledging the what-I-find-to-be-very-plausible alternatives, which conveniently shoves me near the bottom of your POE. And let's be real here, if you're a wolf, you know I'm a mislunch you HAVE to have unless you've got a deep partner.

(inb4 "I could say the same about you" - yes, you could! isn't mafia fun! :freak:)

but that's not my only reasoning and I feel like I've made that clear. I can't help but think part of this is still based on the misunderstanding about what I was saying.

I don't think zack died to implicate logic at all. I think zack died because he was the most v read player in the game, and it really has nothing to do with my logic read. I am going to take into account his read though because he's a flipped villager.

More damning to me are the wagonomics and logic's lack of towny thoughts. I was willing to go to bat for your read because I actually know it tends to be good as opposed to zack saying his read is good (never seen it in action but it could be as good as your read, idk).

but that said, your alignment came into question for me today because of your treatment of syn (and yes, I treated him similarly). But it made me question my read on you and that means that I'm questioning my read on logic. He has assured me in thread that you would lie for him

23/50

[dyachei]

i feel like a lot of this game is assuming why im reading people a certain way and are ignoring the reasons that I'm stating in the thread and I'm not sure if this is a me problem (not explaining adequately) or a "you" problem because I am saying things that are just being dismissed

[Hally]

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.
uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker :dunce2:

[Jan]

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker :dunce2:

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.


More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

[Logic]

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.


More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

Jan, RE: your spoiler:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/11ypleUHGAqob6/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9524dmkxaux84h6j15prr846m7li7mwn4x87rb6jczc&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

(I may have picked this gif because I was inspired by one picked by GH. Accuse me of pocketing. I dare you.)

[Jan]

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.


More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

To maybe rephrase this less vague:

I think GH as wolf does not mind duping his friends and getting one over on them, but does not enjoy fighting/clashing with them.
That applies to him as villager clashing with his friends as well.

The emotional part of that post is just real and the narrative surrounding it too. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
Wolves are less likely to use it/come up with it, but a capable wolf will.

I think he gets villagepoints for it because there was no actual agenda to the evoked emotions. (the want to buy visor a little bit of time doesn't achieve anything. it simply explains the difference between the dya/visor read which has little to no impact on the game).

[Vanta Black]

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker :dunce2:

Can you explain why it's winning you over? Maybe it shoudl be obvious but it's not, to me.

[Vanta Black]

I am not clickikng on another spoiler in this game ever!!!

[Vanta Black]

Can you explain why it's winning you over? Maybe it shoudl be obvious but it's not, to me.

Oh yeah forgot to add, from the players I know in this game, just based on that I wouldn't think anything was out of anybody's wolf range.

[Jan]

Jan, RE: your spoiler:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/11ypleUHGAqob6/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9524dmkxaux84h6j15prr846m7li7mwn4x87rb6jczc&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

(I may have picked this gif because I was inspired by one picked by GH. Accuse me of pocketing. I dare you.)

https://blog.lootcrate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/scoobies_2.gif

https://blog.lootcrate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/scoobies_4.gif

[Jan]

I am not clickikng on another spoiler in this game ever!!!

I have not misused spoilers at all this game!

(I plan to do it later after you start trusting me enough to open them.)

[Gemma]

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.

impossible for me to play mafia today due to things but regardless i doubt i have anything groundbreaking to share

i have no reañ reads tbh and pretty happy to just continue to get carried, also dont think im hugely in danger of being yeeted this game despite current appearances

but fire away!

[Logic]

impossible for me to play mafia today due to things but regardless i doubt i have anything groundbreaking to share

i have no reañ reads tbh and pretty happy to just continue to get carried, also dont think im hugely in danger of being yeeted this game despite current appearances

but fire away!
Tell me more about the bolded.
I may be overthinking it, but these are both pinging me.

Like, what makes you think you eat a NK?

[Jan]

Tell me more about the bolded.
I may be overthinking it, but these are both pinging me.

Like, what makes you think you eat a NK?
You and arctic really love rolling in the mud.

It is a rather impressive feat.

And Gemma, no worries. As long as we know your are busy just means nobody is waiting for you for no reason.

[Hally]

vanta, where’s your head at? who are the wolves? who is town?


also hey gemma

(that entrance gives me kinda wolfy vibes cuz it sounds like gemma knows that they’re at the bottom of the PoE currently but the only way they could know that is if they’ve been reading the thread but just not posting for some reason or their teammates told them in wolfchat)

[Jan]

(that entrance gives me kinda wolfy vibes cuz it sounds like gemma knows that they’re at the bottom of the PoE currently but the only way they could know that is if they’ve been reading the thread but just not posting for some reason or their teammates told them in wolfchat)

why? she is quoting my post and my post mentions that people are looking at visor and gemma?!
Your thought feels like a huge reach.

[Logic]

You and arctic really love rolling in the mud.

It is a rather impressive feat.

And Gemma, no worries. As long as we know your are busy just means nobody is waiting for you for no reason.


why? she is quoting my post and my post mentions that people are looking at visor and gemma?!
Your thought feels like a huge reach.

I don't find it a reach, as it seems to be a very legitimate read on first pass.

Also, what do you mean by rolling in the mud? I have an idea of what it means in this context, but I can't think that I got that quite right.

[nebjiamn]

Tell me more about the bolded.
I may be overthinking it, but these are both pinging me.

Like, what makes you think you eat a NK?
they're softing PR in case that isn't obvious

[Logic]

they're softing PR in case that isn't obvious

Nope. I'm a numbskull and should have seen that for what it was.

[Vanta Black]

vanta, where’s your head at? who are the wolves? who is town?

...
Here is my current list, from towniest to wolfiest. There's a lot in the middle/further research needed.

Raskolnikov
Hally
Murska
Benneh
Dyachei
Ladd
Gemma
Arctic
Ender
Wisdom
Arctic
GeneralHankerchief
Visor
Logic

I just moved Arctic up a bit. Thought GH seemed wolfy earlier today, it helped a little that he came in with reads. Of course he came in with reads after being kinda prodded, but then so did I. I would have done it without the prod, mayebe he woudl have too.

Anyway, I appreciate GH's reads, but I have only rarely understood the whole "if XXX flips [town/wolf], YYY is probably [town/wolf]. I mean sometimes I understand it. But when GH says my alignment depends on what Logic flilps, well, it doesn't. I am what I am. It's not gonna magically change no matter how Logic flips.

(Also if I had a nickel for everything I didn't undertand, I would have a whole pile of nickels--still not worth much but I guess I could put 'em in a sock and use 'em as a sap)

Visor--has he even posted today? Did he indicate he was going to disappear?

Logic--I feel he was reading my posts to get rid of me, not to try to solve me. I also don't understand his push on dyachei, who I feel has looked pretty towny all in all, and I'm not just saying that because of the avatar.

Not sure why I put Benneh so high. I have a kind of weird, time-consuming system that usually I only do somewhat later in the game, and that's where he landed but...more research needed. I could say that also about Gemma, Ladd, and Jan.

[Vanta Black]

Kinda bummed that I never got to play with Jar-Jar. Missed it by that much.

[Vanta Black]

Argh, there was supposed to be a quote there, that was for Logic. See I don't mind burning a post to correct myself. That's usually about a third of my posts, me correcting myself.

[Visor]

sup

its been a long day, lol

first of all, wolves are assholes for killing zack

[Visor]

secondly i'm going to grab a pizza and something to wash down this shitty day

then i'm gonna tunnel gh :curtain:

[ladd]

ngl the wolfiest thing about logic is that i don't think he had any reaction to zack flipping v when he was pretty tunneled there which.


this is a pretty good point

Logic 1 of your wolf reads and your main pusher died n1...why 0 reaction?

and wtf is this visor read. first you say:




And leaving the best for last, we have Doctor Horrible. Being the protagonist (but definitely a bad guy) is probably a wolf-siding villager. Based on absolutely nothing, let's call this Visor. (The mirror of GH? Wait, what?)

so visor is a wolf siding villager...


Thinking I had a somewhat unique take on visor wolf, only to see it's been mentioned a bunch already in the gap I hadn't read.

Let me elaborate on dya while I'm here before someone beats me to it: specifically regarding her read on me and GH makes me think I'm seeing perspective slips, not a reevaluation.

Vote: Dya

I will vote visor as well. People that have scammed with me know that I don't bus except by accident or permission.

..then he is a wolf? and you say people were quicker to visor wolfreads while you clearly did not have one

in fact then you go on to say:


Your hedginess on visor is noted

Where I am seeing a wolf-siding villager in visor: for one, he's asking one confirmed town and one I suspect of being (mostly) town to kill murska, a LHF that now we know has claimed Doctor (not to be confused with Dr Horrible). I don't see murska as scummy, but that could be the fact that he has posted somewhere in the range of a dozen times thus far.

Second, visor doesn't seem to have an agenda. He feels too "can't be assed" to GAF, and I don't think that's his scum game.




so like wtf

[Vanta Black]

I don't know if we are ever going to agree on this, but I think I am the single most-likely mis-lim in the game. Arctic and you are not universally scumread like I currently am. So I don't get why you think scum would ever decide to try and resolve the d1 wagons before they kill either of you two.

I am hardly ever NKed, I think it's happened twice and one of those, the scum used RNG. As for Arctic, he had some votes early on, and was looking to me like either scum or mizzle-bait.

When has the biggest counterwagon ever been the NK? I'm sure it's happened, but it doesn't seem too likely. But that was yesterday.

[ladd]

i re read zack real quick and he was harder on logic/gh than i remembered (i mean i remembered him pushing them, just not so much)

dont really see him being nked unless that is at least 1 wolf in there+its zack so he was prolly at least somewhat on the right track


(fwiw he also thought dya was a wolf, those 3 + ender seemed to be his wolf reads)


gotta go afk for a while, prob gonna manage pop ins but may be back in like 27 hours if i dont manage to pop in from phone

adieu

[Jan]

Here is my current list, from towniest to wolfiest. There's a lot in the middle/further research needed.

Raskolnikov
Hally
Murska
Benneh
Dyachei
Ladd
Gemma
Arctic
Ender
Wisdom
Arctic
GeneralHankerchief
Visor
Logic

I just moved Arctic up a bit. Thought GH seemed wolfy earlier today, it helped a little that he came in with reads. Of course he came in with reads after being kinda prodded, but then so did I. I would have done it without the prod, mayebe he woudl have too.

Anyway, I appreciate GH's reads, but I have only rarely understood the whole "if XXX flips [town/wolf], YYY is probably [town/wolf]. I mean sometimes I understand it. But when GH says my alignment depends on what Logic flilps, well, it doesn't. I am what I am. It's not gonna magically change no matter how Logic flips.

(Also if I had a nickel for everything I didn't undertand, I would have a whole pile of nickels--still not worth much but I guess I could put 'em in a sock and use 'em as a sap)

Visor--has he even posted today? Did he indicate he was going to disappear?

Logic--I feel he was reading my posts to get rid of me, not to try to solve me. I also don't understand his push on dyachei, who I feel has looked pretty towny all in all, and I'm not just saying that because of the avatar.

Not sure why I put Benneh so high. I have a kind of weird, time-consuming system that usually I only do somewhat later in the game, and that's where he landed but...more research needed. I could say that also about Gemma, Ladd, and Jan.

I broke another list. I hope that you are a wolf with Benneh and it is just a wolfchat tell.

I love that you have me in your last line that has me potentially too high but I am not in your actual list.

[Vanta Black]

I broke another list. I hope that you are a wolf with Benneh and it is just a wolfchat tell.

I love that you have me in your last line that has me potentially too high but I am not in your actual list.

Well...I keep typing things in this little reply box, and then I lose them and have to retype. Sorry about that! You should be above Gemma (aha, when I typed the cap G the whole post disappeared, but this time I got it back). Sorry, I am not a wolf with Benneh, or anyone.

[Vanta Black]

Here is my current list, from towniest to wolfiest. There's a lot in the middle/further research needed.

Raskolnikov
Hally
Murska
Benneh
Dyachei
Ladd
Jan
Gemma
Arctic
Ender
Wisdom
Arctic
GeneralHankerchief
Visor
Logic

[Vanta Black]

Here is my current list, from towniest to wolfiest. There's a lot in the middle/further research needed.

Raskolnikov
Hally
Murska
Benneh
Dyachei
Ladd
Jan
Gemma
Arctic
Ender
Wisdom
GeneralHankerchief
Visor
Logic

argle bargle, when I moved people around I put Arctic in twice. I give up. I'm going to bed.

[Jan]

argle bargle, when I moved people around I put Arctic in twice. I give up. I'm going to bed.
<3

no worries. play the game at your own tempo .. and frustration threshold. :D

[Raskolnikov]

What was up with Muska Visor?

[Raskolnikov]

In a GH/Visor/Logic world, EOD1 is kinda hilarious tbh

[GeneralHankerchief]

maybe we should just kill all the Australians

I know that's my default position but in this game especially :curtain:

[Jan]

Today is my first covid free day, which means I can go outside again and am less likely to idle in here.

To quote a man much wiser than I am:

"I know that there will be many people who are relieved and perhaps quite a few who will also be disappointed.
And I want you to know how sad I am to be giving up the best job in the world but them's the breaks."

Boris Johnson seen here tackling a child:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o85xDazgkTMedOX8A/giphy.gif

[GeneralHankerchief]

when it boils down to it, this entire day has mostly been everyone who said "meh Syn feels rand" on d1 just pointing to each other in circles saying "no, it's not me, it's the other guy!" while everybody else is gathered around eating popcorn, with a side helping of the occasional "what the hell is Logic doing"

[ladd]

I dont think saying syn is rand is wolfy per se tbh

Without meta it seems like a perfectly fine assessement to make

Even hally said it but no one noticed :curtain:

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1206945993430532186/24hr_Vote_Count.png?ex=65dddb0c&is=65cb660c&hm=b327bef513950a32be9fed1ed04e2e5a91adab7fb991f2c8761d9371514adb15&

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/c5/f9/b8c5f91b2f700d8a7e62d63226cdc9fa.gif

Thank you, thank you!


Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh, Hally
Dyachei (1) : Logic
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Gemma (1) : Ender

Haven't voted: Visor, Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, Jan, GH, Gemma


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:



Vote: Visor
Vote: Visor
Vote: Dya
Vote: Visor
vote: visor
vote: logic
Vote: Arctic



Vote: Gemma


Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1208049791427411998/image.png?ex=65e1df0a&is=65cf6a0a&hm=47a64a281ffb03b9cf497a6155fde56968651f91be833ef27cc0bade10b3b413&

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207733558546800650/image.png?ex=65e0b886&is=65ce4386&hm=24f2d002f1563fc4444f60340aab88f35e10074608eda1b67adf3fa442ff1365&


The 36-hour vote count will be delayed bc I'll be driving to the airport at that time.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: Gemma

out with it

[EnderWiggin]

Vote: Logic

For reasons.

Also tired and had a long day. More from this channel tomorrow.

[dyachei]

when it boils down to it, this entire day has mostly been everyone who said "meh Syn feels rand" on d1 just pointing to each other in circles saying "no, it's not me, it's the other guy!" while everybody else is gathered around eating popcorn, with a side helping of the occasional "what the hell is Logic doing"

I do t really think this is a fair characterization as one of those people because I think logic is wolfiest and Iirc he didn't do that.

I also think there's at least one busser because syn was the kind of slot you bus

[Hally]

Here is my current list, from towniest to wolfiest. There's a lot in the middle/further research needed.

Raskolnikov
Hally
Murska
Benneh
Dyachei
Ladd
Jan
Gemma
Arctic
Ender
Wisdom
Arctic
GeneralHankerchief
Visor
Logic
thanks for the reads

i’m curious why i’m so high? i remember you saying last day you had no read on me despite me posting a lot, curious what changed

[Hally]

I dont think saying syn is rand is wolfy per se tbh

Without meta it seems like a perfectly fine assessement to make

Even hally said it but no one noticed :curtain:
how does it feel to push a wolf while i completely ignored them and still have people put me higher in reads lists than you? :laugh4:

[Hally]

anyway, since benneh said it already (lol benneh u idiot), gemma def seemed like they were softing PR in their post

not really opposed to them claiming today but seems like they are hinting at something self resolving so

on the other hand, visor said he was gonna push gh 6 hours ago and hasn’t posted again so i’m pretty good with my vote where it is :curtain:

[Jan]

I do t really think this is a fair characterization as one of those people because I think logic is wolfiest and Iirc he didn't do that.

I also think there's at least one busser because syn was the kind of slot you bus

I agree that syn should have been bussed, (some people don't bus for reasons I can't comprehend) but without a proper case I am unlikely to look at those people today.
I have some thoughts on the matter but speculating right now does not seem helpful unless you actually want to act on it.

Somewhat sad both gemma and visor seemed busy today, but we have another 24 hours and at least I know I can be around for the hours leading into EoD to sway some votes.
Looking forward to some visor v gh theatre!

[Hally]

Benneh ladd what do you think of gh’s big posts?

[Jan]

anyway, since benneh said it already (lol benneh u idiot), gemma def seemed like they were softing PR in their post

not really opposed to them claiming today but seems like they are hinting at something self resolving so

on the other hand, visor said he was gonna push gh 6 hours ago and hasn’t posted again so i’m pretty good with my vote where it is :curtain:

I don't see a need to resolve a pr claim after a day 1 wolf kill.
We are on a good track and if it is self resolving then keeping wolves in the dark is always better.

If she is a villa only wolves gain from it and if she is a wolf we are unlikely to kill her based on whatever she claims (unless a cc happens which might out a different pr and we don't really need that today, I think).
If me miss today then we might need a claim tomorrow.

[Logic]

this is a pretty good point

Logic 1 of your wolf reads and your main pusher died n1...why 0 reaction?

and wtf is this visor read. first you say:



so visor is a wolf siding villager...



..then he is a wolf? and you say people were quicker to visor wolfreads while you clearly did not have one

in fact then you go on to say:




so like wtf
ladd so this doesn't get lost

1.) I rarely dwell on the NK. So I was wrong. I had an internal thought about it, but didn't think it warranted a post, nor was it at the forefront of my mind at any later point. I tend to not dwell on the dead.

2.) Look at the rest of that quote there, chief. The full context is about bussing a teammate.

3.) I don't remember my entire thought process, but I thought I had written "a unique take on visor town"

[GeneralHankerchief]

sorry for relative quiet on my part, we're short at work today so I've been shanghai'd into answering phones

literal torture, there should be a provision in the Geneva Convention against this :stupido:


anyway, since benneh said it already (lol benneh u idiot), gemma def seemed like they were softing PR in their post

not really opposed to them claiming today but seems like they are hinting at something self resolving so

on the other hand, visor said he was gonna push gh 6 hours ago and hasn’t posted again so i’m pretty good with my vote where it is :curtain:

FWIW I interpreted Visor's comment as joking around; he could very well come in and push me but that's not the sense of what I got out of that post

[nebjiamn]

@Ben (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=14552)neh @ladd (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=101710) what do you think of gh’s big posts?

generalhankerchief is good at werewolf



uhh, idk. honestly still digesting it and really just kind of hoping i die before i have to worry about him much.

i don't like that he continues to pocket his logic thoughts on a day where logic is obviously a focus. i'm kind of assuming he still v reads there but the way he discussed his vanta read and also how he talked about holding onto his thoughts for a specific logic post til EOD makes me wonder. i don't know why he's choosing to play this way as a villager other than out of pure frustration, but i wish he'd just talk through it even if it is just "i'm a better logic reader than you, he's obvious [alignment] because X, Y, Z"

further i still feel like his reads list is kinda whack. going through it a bit:

i don't really mind the idea that there is 1 wolf exactly in dya/visor but his posting isn't really convincing to me that this is an actual dichotomy for game state reasons but rather it feels like it serves him a purpose here. i think there is a chance he could be correct on dya, so i am not dismissing that, but i just don't get why he gets hung up on some of dya's points while maintaining the hesitance to wolf read visor here. (Note: i know GH responded to this already so i don't wanna go back into it, feel free to ignore the old points)

Like, I totally buy that he doesn't wanna fuck up a read on visor because they are good friends and that he is soured a bit on how zack and he ended before zack's death. i believe this to be true regardless of GH's alignment. but there's some dissonance with that too because GH and zack went at eachother a bit because of how GH was making reads, not because of accuracy or whatever. I don't think visor would be upset at GH for suspecting and potentially mislunching visor here unless GH started being an ass (which i obviously don't see happening). it just feels like a bit of an excuse to not push on visor when i think, of the two, based off current body of work, visor is clearly more wolfy

i caveat that with i can obviously see v!GH not being able to overcome feeling bad about potentially getting a friend wrong because its hard to control the heart etc.

i think my larger issue with his reads list is two-fold:

a) i feel like the way he talked about me was more or less commentary and i don't really get the feeling there was curiosity about my alignment with how he presented the read on me. this is super self-centered i know and its really the only take away i had from the entire post because its all i remember from the explanations of reads. but I feel like his slotting of me into tinfoil town just sorta feels like what a wolf probably has to do (and same with hally)

b) OK, let's say GH is correct about visor/dya having one. possibly even that one being dya. from what i can tell, he has excluded the other in this pair from being w/w, and so the assumption is that upon a wolf flip of, let's say, dya, visor should be clear-ish from how GH is currently viewing the game.

But like, again, i don't know why that dichotomy (and/or the lack of w/w possibilities) exists from his pov outside it just being, like gamestate POE? And again, if we go back to assuming 1 of them flips wolf, his POE is like, drastically thin after that? I don't know where GH goes from there if we flipped w!dya or w!visor today ... and maybe its a bit unfair to expect that level of read from him today, or specifically with that reads list, but it just kind of feels like the reads list was attuned to get through today and survive and then sort out what happens tomorrow when tomorrow comes and new narratives/POEs take shape.

those are concerns but not necessarily a read. hedgy i know but tl;dr i suck at werewolf don't ask me

[Wisdom]

Yeah I'm also not very here, stayed home from work today, hopefully just a cold but didn't sleep much last night and now my brain is barely functioning.

Imagine if the team is ladd/logic
I don't think it is, but I'm vibing with ladd's take on logic so much that it gives me cold feet

And also, like, my team is pretty much exactly in Visor/Gemma/Benneh/Jan/Vanta and it doesn't feel right. I'm not sure that's enough to start tinfoiling. I've noticed people tr'ing Jan hard though, so I might be missing something there.

[nebjiamn]

i don't really wanna harp on it but visor slippin and dippin isn't very inspiring and idt i'm likely to move my vote regardless of what he comes in with

i know rl stuff and busy and all that but if visor's a villager i think he'll be able to come in and, maybe not 'talk himself out of the yeet' but at least be able to give good thoughts. if he's a wolf then he probably is just gonna have a hard time entering thread and i feel like his entrance/lack of anything else thus far could just be indicative of that

also GH i don't think his thing about tunneling you was intended as a joke but maybe i'm wrong

[nebjiamn]

Yeah I'm also not very here, stayed home from work today, hopefully just a cold but didn't sleep much last night and now my brain is barely functioning.

Imagine if the team is ladd/logic
I don't think it is, but I'm vibing with ladd's take on logic so much that it gives me cold feet

And also, like, my team is pretty much exactly in Visor/Gemma/Benneh/Jan/Vanta and it doesn't feel right. I'm not sure that's enough to start tinfoiling. I've noticed people tr'ing Jan hard though, so I might be missing something there.

i could certainly see the team being visor/gemma/vanta

its probably not but its very plausible

[GeneralHankerchief]

@ benneh re: second level thinking in the reads post

I worked on that post for two and a half hours lol, I basically caught up in the game and actually formulated a coherent gamestate view on everybody which I hadn't had to that point. I was tired and hungry and wanted to leave my computer

[dyachei]

That's one reason I dropped gh in my reads benneh. I don't feel like he's reading my posts with curiosity if that makes sense. He keeps coming to wrong conclusions and assuming they are right. Like the nk thing. Idk it kind of feels like he's going through the motions but I think logic looks worse. Visor too

[Arctic]

i had a dream that we chain killed gh and visor and they both flipped wolf but we couldn't find the last wolf for shit and the game went to f3 where i got misyeeted (i dont remember who was in f3 or who the wolf was, probably dya)

[Arctic]

I'm actually kinda weirded out by Arctic's p#946 and p#947.

This is the first time I've actually gotten a wolf vibe from him.

out of anything you could choose to wolfread me for, you chose me being a silly little guy

[Logic]

i had a dream that we chain killed gh and visor and they both flipped wolf but we couldn't find the last wolf for shit and the game went to f3 where i got misyeeted (i dont remember who was in f3 or who the wolf was, probably dya)

I don't like this post, Arctic

I want to see some more solving from you rather than recounting your dreams.

[Arctic]

I don't like this post, Arctic

I want to see some more solving from you rather than recounting your dreams.

omg im literally catching up i'll do that afterwards + ur not my dad

[GeneralHankerchief]

I had a dream that the Phillies won the World Series (I don't remember who hit the winning homer in Game 7 or who the MVP was, probably Bryce Harper) :dankpuff:

[dyachei]

I wonder if arctic can go five posts without mentioning me

[Arctic]

Syn's treatment of me + Bussing I'd actually try and put myself to get better cred + leaving my vote on a wolf partner is not a usual step I take. (You've been wolf with me. Unless I'm aggressively bussing I don't like leaving my vote on a partner for longer than a short while. I vote hop as both alignments so I don't feel bad about hopping on and off wolves. But leaving a static vote leaves them open to others turning it into a wagon. I think I've even been technically caught for doing that to a partner just as pressure mounted on them before.)

i love how you called me out for the self-meta re: not bussing in a way that gets me zero cred and you're doing the exact same thing here lol

why do you even wolfread me? idgi. you've pointed out the thing about self-meta and the post where i spoke about how the nightkill doesn't make it any more or less likely that syn was bussed, and neither of these things are actually wolfy if you think about them for more than 5 seconds

like i would normally not bother making posts like this but one of the places i keep fucking up in my reads is assuming that the people treating my slot awfully are just villagers sucking so i don't really engage with scumreads on me other than defending myself, so i'm trying to figure out whether you're just throwing shit around and it certainly does feel like that, and this is worsened by the fact i have no idea what your actual worldview is rn, so if you could drop a full readlist that would be helpful too

[Arctic]

I suppose this is where I mention that I hate "Never busses" metas because they get a free win out of bussing and I just don't like that.

Also on that note "Genuinely working through the game" maybe but his takes have existed in that weird liminal space where it's off the wall but not like the Wisdom townread "At odds with thread". They seem aware of thread but fighting against the flow. (See my comment about their "but maybe it's not because wolves bussed? :plead:" post.)

This is literally just buzzwords that you could say about anybody
What is bro waffling about

[Logic]

Arctic is ender a scumread for you? It looks like you are dancing around it, without committing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

also circling back to this because I'm not gonna come up against the cap:


But like, again, i don't know why that dichotomy (and/or the lack of w/w possibilities) exists from his pov outside it just being, like gamestate POE? And again, if we go back to assuming 1 of them flips wolf, his POE is like, drastically thin after that? I don't know where GH goes from there if we flipped w!dya or w!visor today ... and maybe its a bit unfair to expect that level of read from him today, or specifically with that reads list, but it just kind of feels like the reads list was attuned to get through today and survive and then sort out what happens tomorrow when tomorrow comes and new narratives/POEs take shape.

those are concerns but not necessarily a read. hedgy i know but tl;dr i suck at werewolf don't ask me

I straight up admitted to this at the very top of my long post lol


Ok, I suppose you're all owed some actual effort from me. I wanted to just vibe in this game and phaff around while other people actually did the solving, but events have taken their course and vibing ain't gonna cut it. So let's just do this, get it out of the way, and hope it's good enough for me to coast for the rest of the game until hopefully I get cleared through associatives or something so I don't have to do this again.

like, again, I just wanted to vibe out, though yes, not getting eliminated is also a major goal here. I would very much not like this game be referred to as "hey remember that one org game GH came back for where we mislunched him d4" three years down the line when we're reminiscing about it in MFF or wherever

I get that I'm in the POE because I didn't nail Syn and my Logic stance is obviously a POINT OF CONTROVERSY, that's just how the game goes some times, so I'm straight up hoping to tread water until the associatives go my way (if they even do; if not then I accept my fate and will at least do my best to provide a winning solve on my way out). if I didn't spell this out well enough in the previous post than I am now, lol



and ffs don't read into this post either, I could make this as either alignment just as I could the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT exchange I had with dya last night. just take it at face value for god's sake

[Arctic]

Ok, I suppose you're all owed some actual effort from me. I wanted to just vibe in this game and phaff around while other people actually did the solving, but events have taken their course and vibing ain't gonna cut it. So let's just do this, get it out of the way, and hope it's good enough for me to coast for the rest of the game until hopefully I get cleared through associatives or something so I don't have to do this again.

In this post I will discuss every player aside from Murska and Logic. This will be in no particular order.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/utxF0PQVKNeJG/giphy.gif


Rask/ladd

Don't think I need to belabor the point here. Town. Rask higher than ladd but it shouldn't matter.


Jan

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not the best Jan reader. He's a tricksy wolf who's fooled me at least once in the past (caveat: it was a mash, so transcribe it to this type of game at your peril) and I find myself naturally gravitating towards townreading his typical tone.

That said, we had two clear points of agreement on D1 that go beyond the typical "gud t0an" stuff that make me feel more confident about my Jan read at this point. The first was early in the game, re: Arctic's initial posting:



If you don't remember, Arctic had a corker of an entry D1 that kept oscillating between "plain old bad" and "self-aware about how bad it was but still persisting and still being bad". Back when I was still in my shitposting phase, I did spend some amount of thought on those posts and eventually decided it was a straight-up case of TWTBAW, and Jan came to the same conclusion as me without any sort of prompting from me (since, again, I was still in my shitposting phase).

The second was his mid-d1 post about Gemma:



I'm not going to pretend I had the same thought as Jan here independently, but I *did* read Gemma's initial entry into the thread and had just a minor tingle of "huh" about it, and Jan putting it into this context was both a) a coherent thought and b) showed good thoughts about the thread and game as a whole. Gemma, to my knowledge has still not really addressed the crux of this point but I'll talk more about that later. I'll finish the Jan section by saying that he was also reasonably early on Syn (made several comments mid d1 about Syn "conceding" after sustaining the first major push from Rask that I don't think a wolf would say about a wolfbro right off the bat) and while his posts so far on D2 haven't been anything a good wolf couldn't fake, he's also given me no reason to doubt my good feelings about him from D1. Town.


Wisdom

Partly relying on old meta here, and this might out one of my old alts on MU but hell with it lol.

I played two games with Wisdom in 2021 (the year I stopped playing). The first was a team mafia game where we were both wolfbros and both in on the same day, d1. In that game, there were a lot of meandering observations, nothing questions, and a truly horrendous bus vote on me that even I, deep into my powerwolf meta, had a hard time with spinning even though I specifically made a post designed to clear all of my teammates currently bussing me (I deeply despise that game, in case you couldn't tell :laugh4:).

The second was a game a couple months later when I was on an alt, and Wisdom was more to the point, happy to lucky, and while they were a bit off-kilter in their solving in terms of how she worked with the consensus, there was still, you know, solving. I eventually helped mislunch her (I was town) later on in the game when she was ensconced in my POE, but even though her demise was telegraphed pretty early on in that day she was still cheerfully solving the entire time and I did have those niggling little vibes that I was going down the wrong path here, which I naturally ignored.

After a false start, Wisdom appears firmly in her town meta to me here.


benneh (nebjiamn)

Was quick to point out on multiple occasions on D1 that he was still well within both his ranges, which I agreed with at the time. I still agree with it now, 8-9 hours into D2 tbh. Out of the people generally not coming under fire, I feel like benneh's been the most skate-y. He's been content to just be chill, not super rock the boat much, and vibe with whoever happens to be in the thread at the time. (in other words he's seized by force the niche I wanted to occupy, and I will forever hate him for it :soapbox:) His biggest, most notable push on D2, has been Visor, which sure, Visor's a popular guy today, but I don't actually think he's pushing the game forward much.

There's been some testing the waters on Arctic here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854398&viewfull=1#post2053854398), Gemma here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854404&viewfull=1#post2053854404) but there's no followup with them and a bit later on he says his main disagreement with dya is that they put Arctic third from the bottom on a readslist. For the most part, he's been cool with just focusing in on the bottom group of the POE today.

Now, that's fine, considering I haven't done a damn thing today lol, and it could be benneh's just doing the standard villa thing of voicing some of his more outlier thoughts as he tries to focus on what's most likely going to be relevant at EOD, BUT! I also see a very possible explanation where he's seeding the thread and setting up for the future.

So I'll conclude this segment by saying that benneh's not out of either range by a longshot. Tinfoil town.


Arctic

Horrendous gamestart, discussed in Jan's section. Felt like TWTBAW to me. Arctic is in a weird position because, unless the MU social dynamics have changed since I mostly left the scene, Arctic is probably one of the more isolated folks in this specific playerlist (going off joindate this is Arctic's first Org game, for example). That's always gonna bring some awkwardness when you're a guest at the established club, so to speak, and that does have to be taken into account when reading into things. So let's set tone to the side for this and talk about his actual content.

We'll start with the negatives. These posts on Syn isn't great:





(previous two were midd1, the one below is eod1:)



There's been some talk about the "Syn skeptics", I'll call it, and I'll talk more about that later on in this post, but I think Arctic's stance on Syn has gone under the radar a bit and it's not great. We have a couple posts of the classic "wolf in a tough spot when dealing with a bro getting heat" where Arctic acknowledges the wagon because they have to, but then just kind of waves it off and goes about their business. They may have gotten taken by surprise by the Syn wagon in general because they expressed skepticism about both Rask and more notably ladd on d1, but otoh a wolf might be more in tune with threadflow stuff and try to work around it?

I have liked a number of Arctic's contributions. I feel like there's a real effort to get complete or near-complete stances on everyone in the game, and Arctic has also been one of the people beating the drum on Gemma, who I feel like has gotten lost in the shuffle and could very well be a wolf here. But the associatives toward Syn aren't great and bear monitoring for the future. Mixed, GTH town.


Hally

First, the overarching impression I get in this game is that hally is quite comfortable ITT. Hally's "peak" so to speak on MU coincided with the terminal stages of my decline so I never quite got the full decoder on their playstyle, but from what I can remember they were considerably more awkward in the thread when wolfing and I'm not really seeing much evidence of that here.

In terms of content, hally gets a minor point for being in agreement with myself and Jan over Arctic's entry posts (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853656#post2053853656) (and was even more on the nose with me in terms of it than Jan, fwiw), but later this translates to getting into it with Arctic a bit over Rask of all people, that's aged somewhat well.

There's actually not a lot in hally's reads beyond their chats with Arctic (they have since switched up to Arctic looking better from EOD1) and then their big push on Logic, which I won't be discussing here for raisins. There's not a lot of moving the game forward really, just chilling in the thread similar to benneh. No reason to dislike their posts but hally is definitely going with the flow for the most part. Tinfoil town, would probably rank a tick higher than benneh for nebulous + tonal reasons.


EnderWiggin

Ok, let's talk about the Syn vote. Rask was first on, in post #365 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853934&viewfull=1#post2053853934), after making a series of posts where he really honed in on his target. Syn's response, a single word, "mean", was post 366. Ender's vote came in at 367 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853936&viewfull=1#post2053853936), nakedly a pile-on, and remained there for the rest of d1. Syn picked up another vote from Murska an hour or two later and was tied for the lead (with Ender himself) as of Taffy's 24hr vote count (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053853959&viewfull=1#post2053853959).

This was ender's rationale for doing so, as a tack-on to post 380:



He had some suspicion about Jan later on in d1, which I suppose could be read as testing the waters to see if he could get off, but Jan was pretty consensus town at that point. If he wanted off Syn, why not go to, like, [literally anyone in the me/Logic/dya/Gemma/etc general POE who was town]? This isn't a hypothetical w!benneh situation where he's setting stuff up for down the road, this would be a world where he just wants to get off a wagon that got too hot and not look terrible in the process, and this isn't what it looks like imo.

A little iconoclastic with a townread on dya with very little actual explanation here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854163#post2053854163), and that's about it for d1. He notably was around for EOD1 and could switch off Syn, but chose not too. Not sure how much I should read into this.

Has, in general, given off the impression that he's having a good time ITT, which I should probably be placing less emphasis on than I am. I am aware that he's come back in the thread D2 since I started writing this up, but I'm not gonna go over it with a fine toothed comb. Yet. Bottom line, I don't think the Syn vote was a bus, seems fine for now.


Gemma

Really need some new posts from them, feels like the fourth time I've gone over their exact same posts in the past few days with very little additional context.

Gemma is part of that group in general who have actually not said very much about the game as a whole. Others in it are Visor, Syn, and, I suppose, myself to some extent. They started off hot with a vote against me and giving off the impression it was serious with the following sequence:







but as Jan mentioned, I had not actually started playing the game at that point so that sequence was very much out of place as a whole. What was there to shade me about?

There's a number of reads sprinkled through Gemma's iso but they're all sporadic, mostly one-liners, and pretty disconnected from each other. Very doable for a wolf to fake, basically. There's some questioning, asking to elaborate on reads and the like, but there's not much if any actual follow-up. I'm trying to get a picture of Gemma's overall view of the gamestate from their iso and out of everybody I've looked at so far I'm just not seeing it really. It's all disjointed. Like I want to write more here because this is a slot of particular interest to me, but I just can't. POE, in danger of slipping beneath notice.


Vanta Black:

This one's an annoying one to pin down for me, because it's felt like Vanta's on the cusp of actually putting together a sustained sequence of thoughts that will help me get to where they're at with stuff... and then they dip. So let's work with what I can.



Post 342, about 18 hours into the game. Not the worst look imo.



Post 516, something like 30 hours in. This is also pretty decent, correctly honing in on Syn but not looking especially bussy while doing so. Just a straight up "yeah Syn's voters seem cool, let's roll with this for now".



Post 662, a bit under 3 hours before EOD. This is... less good, mainly because it deviates from the flipped wolf (Syn), doesn't mention Syn at all when Vanta had previously been open to voting Syn, and there was also a promise to read Syn and ladd that was never followed up on. Now, obviously Logic is unflipped so we don't know if Vanta was going from a wolf to a different wolf, but Syn was very much in contention and Vanta did go elsewhere, specifically the counter.

Verdict here is mixed. I did like their earlier posts on Syn that I quoted, but at a certain point, vibes can only take you so far. Priority slot if Logic is town. Probably ok if Logic is mafia.


dyachei/Visor

I feel like, holistically, there has to be exactly one in these two. Along with Arctic (and myself, but I'm town), they were probably the two most notable "Syn skeptics" who basically said some variant of "meh Syn is rand, I don't care". I'm gonna make an assumption here that the D1 elimination was not a major inflection point of the game. Regardless of whether Syn actively gave the green light to bus or not, the wolves had to know that Syn was not long for the world, even if they survived D1. Could be D2, could be D3, could be a vig shot, but Syn was always going down at some point. This was not a slot you stick your neck out for, basically.

Since this was not a slot you stick your neck out for, I'm going to make a second assumption: that the wolves did their traditional strategy when dealing with a drawing-dead partner: spread out and hide in the numbers rather than put all your eggs in once basket. Take differing, if not opposing, viewpoints about major stuff. Considering Syn's standing in the thread, I think Visor's and dya's stances on Syn are too similar for them to both be on the same team. They both exerted roughly equivalent efforts to save Syn: dya by shopping around for a counterwagon at EOD, Visor by trying to create one a few hours prior. I don't see 75% of this mafia team (counting Syn) to be this invested in keeping Syn alive, and I don't think they're both town either just from vague gamestate feels, so we're left with one in two.

Each has problems. Visor has been generally underwhelming, lacking that joie de vivre as a number of people have mentioned. I wish he had some D2 posts to his name so I can better get a handle on him, because I think that will help me, but what's down so far can charitably described as "incomplete", I think. His most recent outright stance on Logic was here:



But later he pooh pooh'd a Gemma readslist (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154944-17er-Saints-and-Martyrs?p=2053854222&viewfull=1#post2053854222) that effectively had Logic as null (frustrating for me looking back) and then pivoted to going after Murska in his final sequence of posts on D1, without much elaboration, ending in directly appealing to Zack and myself for wagon support.



All of this is in his wheelhouse as either alignment, as I've already discussed. The main issue is that there's just more fire, more followable a-to-b-to-c progression when he's done it as town. Could this be because he's got other stuff going on? Certainly. But it could also be because he's got other stuff going on while having randed wolf. I don't want to get this read wrong because I've already pissed off Zack itg and don't want to do it to the other person I chat the most with, but realistically speaking I can't point to anything concrete Visor has done in the game and say with a straight face, "this is villagery".

As for dya, it's very simple: dya took an approach to me that was extremely similar to one they took to me as w/v (they were the w) in an Org game from a few years back. ladd pointed this out already on d1 I believe, but I'll go and grab the posts for comparison:

Previous game (from 2019):








This game:












This on its own isn't the full picture, largely because the read is correct and for the right reasons, but I will specifically note that by the time I stopped playing in 2021, dya was typically gaining early accurate reads on me NOT from my investment/seriousness level or lack thereof, but from my early tone. They were really good at pummeling me for awkward openings as a wolf and did not hesitate to tell me as such to the point where I was seriously strategizing about entering the thread late as all alignments just to dodge that read (until I stopped playing, of course). So dya reading me for this reason, here, and not mentioning the other aspect, does stick out to me.

As for the aspects of their posting beyond me, it's mixed. I already talked about the Syn stuff, it's no better or worse than Visor's imo, so that's a wash. In terms of the Arctic thing, dya is capable of pulling that off (both the read and the argument) as either alignment and I'm not able to get a lean on that either way in isolation. The turnaround on Logic on D2 to me is a bit awkward. I can sort of see the argument dya makes but it's causing me to make one too many jumps in progression to get there and that's not great. Like it went from "I think GH is town > GH says Logic is town > Zack I know you say Logic's a wolf but I'm aware of GH's history with Logic and not yours so I'm placing higher emphasis on that" to "if Logic was villaging, the wolves would have been able to push him over Syn at EOD > so GH is a wolf with him huh" and I feel like there are a number of perfectly plausible explanations for why Syn went over D1 that went unaddressed and I have a hard time with dya not really paying lip service to those, it feels like they ran the numbers overnight and realized that I had to be a miselim if they wanted to win the game and acted accordingly (Logic's alignment still pending ofc).

Final verdict, one in dya/Visor, leaning dya right now.

---

Overall readslist, excepting Logic and myself, look something like this:

Claimed PR:
Murska

Town:
Rask
ladd

Wisdom
Jan

Tinfoil town:
Hally

benneh

On the right side of the POE:
Arctic
Ender

Dependent on Logic's flip:
Vanta Black

POE:
Gemma

POE, exactly 1 of the two:
Visor
dyachei



I'm going to eat dinner and play video games now.

thoughts on GH's big reads post:

wisdom read is wolf shaped, again doesn't really address posting in this game and references some anecdotes for meta that are easily talked about

dunno why he thinks my posts on syn are bad when he acknowledges later on that several people including him said the same thing about syn and it's perfectly reasonable for me to handle it how i did given i don't even know them + he's kinda ignoring the point hally made about my eod, so this read seems kinda uncharitable but maybe i'm biased

i don't really know what indicates ender's vote wasn't a bus - in fact the way he spoke about syn in the quote mentioned here actually gives me the creeps a bit

i didn't really find any of this post villagery
am i evil

[Arctic]

Arctic is ender a scumread for you? It looks like you are dancing around it, without committing.

yeah that's what i'm doing now because i think his read on me is bullshit and i just got to the point of the thread where hally said she thinks the same thing

[Hally]

generalhankerchief is good at werewolf



uhh, idk. honestly still digesting it and really just kind of hoping i die before i have to worry about him much.

i don't like that he continues to pocket his logic thoughts on a day where logic is obviously a focus. i'm kind of assuming he still v reads there but the way he discussed his vanta read and also how he talked about holding onto his thoughts for a specific logic post til EOD makes me wonder. i don't know why he's choosing to play this way as a villager other than out of pure frustration, but i wish he'd just talk through it even if it is just "i'm a better logic reader than you, he's obvious [alignment] because X, Y, Z"
yeah tbh i find his approach to the whole thing frustrating. not as in i’m personally frustrated at him for it, more so like it makes the game harder to parse for us for seemingly no reason. myself and others who he thinks are villagers have raised what i think are clearly legitimate concerns over logic’s posting (regardless of what gh thinks logic’s alignment actually is) so i don’t understand why he wouldn’t want to help us get a better handle on the game by trying to clear up the issues that we have given logic is obviously a major point of contention

but i’m not really sure why he would choose to do this as a wolf regardless of logic’s alignment? ig if logic is v gh just thinks he has to read logic or people will start wondering but he also doesn’t actually want the suspicion to go away so he’s refusing to explain it? idk. or if he and logic are w/w he could avoid explaining the read so people can’t tell that it’s bs but i assume w!gh is more than capable of making something up that seems plausible enough and regardless of whether he explains it or not if logic flips wolf this game gh is getting punted into the sun immediately so he may as well try to defend him as a well as possible. so i don’t really get it regardless of gh’s alignment


further i still feel like his reads list is kinda whack. going through it a bit:

i don't really mind the idea that there is 1 wolf exactly in dya/visor but his posting isn't really convincing to me that this is an actual dichotomy for game state reasons but rather it feels like it serves him a purpose here. i think there is a chance he could be correct on dya, so i am not dismissing that, but i just don't get why he gets hung up on some of dya's points while maintaining the hesitance to wolf read visor here. (Note: i know GH responded to this already so i don't wanna go back into it, feel free to ignore the old points)

Like, I totally buy that he doesn't wanna fuck up a read on visor because they are good friends and that he is soured a bit on how zack and he ended before zack's death. i believe this to be true regardless of GH's alignment. but there's some dissonance with that too because GH and zack went at eachother a bit because of how GH was making reads, not because of accuracy or whatever. I don't think visor would be upset at GH for suspecting and potentially mislunching visor here unless GH started being an ass (which i obviously don't see happening). it just feels like a bit of an excuse to not push on visor when i think, of the two, based off current body of work, visor is clearly more wolfy

i caveat that with i can obviously see v!GH not being able to overcome feeling bad about potentially getting a friend wrong because its hard to control the heart etc.
yeah i don’t really get why that dichotomy exists for him either. afaict he was saying two wolves wouldn’t both push back on the syn wagon so one of them is town but i feel like two wolves could easily do that? it just seems arbitrary lol

the thing is though, visor is obviously getting lunched today so if he and gh are w/w, gh is dedicating time today to pushing dya when dya is not flipping before visor and gh set up a dichotomy by which he would have to stop pushing dya after visor flips, which wastes the push he’s making today. but ig he can always walk back the dichotomy thing and keep dya in his PoE anyway


i think my larger issue with his reads list is two-fold:

a) i feel like the way he talked about me was more or less commentary and i don't really get the feeling there was curiosity about my alignment with how he presented the read on me. this is super self-centered i know and its really the only take away i had from the entire post because its all i remember from the explanations of reads. but I feel like his slotting of me into tinfoil town just sorta feels like what a wolf probably has to do (and same with hally)
yea i didn’t really like his read on me either. it felt kinda lazy. like i dunno, i think it’s true that i’ve mostly just been vibing but i think there’s still a lot of substance and critical evaluation in my posts that one could analyze and i feel like gh largely glossed over it. not that i am expecting him do a post by post analysis in that sort of wall but i still feel it left a lot to be desired. tbh when i read it i got this premonition that he is a wolf planting the seeds to mislunch me if the game gets hard lol. i often end up being alive for a long time in player lists like this despite being widely town read because i’m fairly content to mostly vibe and be a robin to the batmans of the thread that wolves end up killing before me and then i’m suddenly in F5 and wondering how i could be so bad that wolves let me live that long cupcakedog.gif and i’m scared he mapped out the game and realized i’m a push he might need to make down the line :no:


b) OK, let's say GH is correct about visor/dya having one. possibly even that one being dya. from what i can tell, he has excluded the other in this pair from being w/w, and so the assumption is that upon a wolf flip of, let's say, dya, visor should be clear-ish from how GH is currently viewing the game.

But like, again, i don't know why that dichotomy (and/or the lack of w/w possibilities) exists from his pov outside it just being, like gamestate POE? And again, if we go back to assuming 1 of them flips wolf, his POE is like, drastically thin after that? I don't know where GH goes from there if we flipped w!dya or w!visor today ... and maybe its a bit unfair to expect that level of read from him today, or specifically with that reads list, but it just kind of feels like the reads list was attuned to get through today and survive and then sort out what happens tomorrow when tomorrow comes and new narratives/POEs take shape.

those are concerns but not necessarily a read. hedgy i know but tl;dr i suck at werewolf don't ask me
i agree with the last part :curtain:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I am being lazy!

I am being precisely as lazy as I think I can get away with

idk how many more times I need to say this for it to sink in, good lord

[Hally]

Yeah I'm also not very here, stayed home from work today, hopefully just a cold but didn't sleep much last night and now my brain is barely functioning.

Imagine if the team is ladd/logic
I don't think it is, but I'm vibing with ladd's take on logic so much that it gives me cold feet

And also, like, my team is pretty much exactly in Visor/Gemma/Benneh/Jan/Vanta and it doesn't feel right. I'm not sure that's enough to start tinfoiling. I've noticed people tr'ing Jan hard though, so I might be missing something there.
fwiw i’m not town reading jan suuuper hard (esp because according to ladd he is apparently a dirty busser)

but i do think he was pretty villagery D1 and in line with what i would expect out of him. not sure if this is a concern for you but his drop off today doesn’t really worry me cuz in the thing game we played together he was a villager and dropped off a lot as the game went on. i think he just has a hard time keeping up energy cuz he’s a boomer :curtain:

[Hally]

i could certainly see the team being visor/gemma/vanta

its probably not but its very plausible
i had the thought that could be the team and they are mostly giving up because we btfo’d them out of the game already but i’m hoping it’s not lol

gonna be a boring game in that case :Zzzz:

[Hally]

i had a dream that we chain killed gh and visor and they both flipped wolf but we couldn't find the last wolf for shit and the game went to f3 where i got misyeeted (i dont remember who was in f3 or who the wolf was, probably dya)
according to dyslexicon this is a lock clearing post

dream tell ftw

[ladd]

ladd so this doesn't get lost

1.) I rarely dwell on the NK. So I was wrong. I had an internal thought about it, but didn't think it warranted a post, nor was it at the forefront of my mind at any later point. I tend to not dwell on the dead.

2.) Look at the rest of that quote there, chief. The full context is about bussing a teammate.

3.) I don't remember my entire thought process, but I thought I had written "a unique take on visor town"

I am still confused why did you say you were not the first on visor villareads if dveryone came in the game wolfreading visor? Who said visor v before you?


Hally, i have never been great at reading well crafted wall. Ill say that i appreciate the effort and worldviee seems fine from villa gh pov but i think the correct tinfoil is jan not you/benneh (just my 2 cents tho)

I see nothing that makes dya/visor not w/w personally (tho i think visor w dya v is the most likely scenario easily) and i mean...visor is a wolf


Dont think game will be super easy after visor lunch, id take it 1 step at a time

Dont care for gemma soft

@gh tbh my main problem with you/logic is simply that zack died and thought you 2 were wolves. I know its a leading question if you are a villager but how do you reconcile him dying with you 2 being v/v? I think wolves would have killed murska of you/logic are v/v and they wanted to avoid killing in me/rask to dodge the doc

[Arctic]

guise i can't explain it but i just believe vanta's posts, they just sound really honest to me lmao

also did GH just ignore the gemma PR soft and people saying it was probably a PR soft and voted her??? wat
okay wait he literally quoted hally saying it right afterwards then just ignored it

and visor just came in did nothing and left again
ok

benneh has nice thoughts on the GH reads list and jan weighinh in on the part about visor/zack kinda mirrors my thoughts there - i think it's something he could be aware of as either alignment and it's something he'd want to make a point of here even if he's mafia, like it's a great excuse to potentially let town!logic die today so as not to get on worse terms with zack, or to not murk the shit out of visor despite his posting being horrendous

and i agree the dichotomy is whack but also cuz i wasn't included in it even tho i did basically the same thing with handling syn and he even said i was wolfy for it, but dya/visor are the ones here instead

[Wisdom]

fwiw i’m not town reading jan suuuper hard (esp because according to ladd he is apparently a dirty busser)

but i do think he was pretty villagery D1 and in line with what i would expect out of him. not sure if this is a concern for you but his drop off today doesn’t really worry me cuz in the thing game we played together he was a villager and dropped off a lot as the game went on. i think he just has a hard time keeping up energy cuz he’s a boomer :curtain:

Nothing of what Jan's done this game has to do why he's in my PoE, it's just that I haven't really found anything I belive is town indicative for him. Same goes for all 5 in my PoE.

I have no plan on pushing Jan today anyway so I don't really wanna put my energy there. I'm quite set on going Visor or Gemma right now (Although Gemma's soft makes me wanna stay on Visor).

[Hally]

visor is too busy fighting a kangaroo or whatever he does all day to come in here and lolcat like a real wolf

disappointing

[Hally]

https://i.imgur.com/vms7Fmv_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand

guys i found him!

[dyachei]

im gonna be highly disappointed in the game if all the wolves just didnt play

[nebjiamn]

also circling back to this because I'm not gonna come up against the cap:



I straight up admitted to this at the very top of my long post lol



like, again, I just wanted to vibe out, though yes, not getting eliminated is also a major goal here. I would very much not like this game be referred to as "hey remember that one org game GH came back for where we mislunched him d4" three years down the line when we're reminiscing about it in MFF or wherever


sure -- and i know / read that part of your post but i'm not strictly saying "you're being lazy do better" or anything -- i just think there's a chance this version of your posting is also because you're a wolf but i don't think i'm being unfair with how i'm talking to or about you? you're on the wolfier side of null for me but i wouldn't say you're anything close to lock wolf? I feel like that's conveyed in my post pretty clearly


I get that I'm in the POE because I didn't nail Syn and my Logic stance is obviously a POINT OF CONTROVERSY, that's just how the game goes some times, so I'm straight up hoping to tread water until the associatives go my way (if they even do; if not then I accept my fate and will at least do my best to provide a winning solve on my way out). if I didn't spell this out well enough in the previous post than I am now, lol

honestly i don't really care about syn. i think a few people are clear from how they pushed (ladd and rask ldo) but aside from that i don't really care about how day 1 went down for the most part. to be a bit more clear, my read on you basically stems from how you've decided to engage with the game at the times you've decided to do so and i'm not particularly sold on how your POE shapes out beyond the dya/visor dichotomy

but you might be 100% right! i'm not claiming to have a godread on the game state or anything. i just don't think i can reach a point at this time where i can reasonably feel good about comfortably v reading you against most of the other slots ITG even if your play is very much explainable by your desire to be chill. again, i just kinda hope i die and don't have to worry about it and ideally you self-resolve too and we can shitpost in dvc while arctic chokes in f3




and ffs don't read into this post either, I could make this as either alignment just as I could the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT exchange I had with dya last night. just take it at face value for god's sake
ya i mean, i do, idk if that wasn't clear. idrt anything you've said re: benefit of the doubt/zack/visor/dya is anywhere close to polarizing or bad faith etc

[Hally]

more people should talk about ender imo

his posts today (in particular the arctic push) seem super fake

feel like he’s going UTR

[nebjiamn]

can we maj tonight?

i'd love to see visor's flip tonight instead of waking up on a saturday

[Hally]

can we maj tonight?

i'd love to see visor's flip tonight instead of waking up on a saturday
what kind of degenerate would wake up early on a saturday just to see a flip

[GeneralHankerchief]

what kind of degenerate would wake up early on a saturday just to see a flip

I have to be up early tomorrow because I'm getting my car serviced

if maj is gonna happen let me know and I'll drop my thoughts on Logic (gonna have to do it this evening anyway because I'm not doing that @#$%^ on mobile lol)

[nebjiamn]

more people should talk about ender imo

his posts today (in particular the arctic push) seem super fake

feel like he’s going UTR
i've just been nodding along at some of the pokes you had at him today. idt much of his posts or reads today

idt the syn stuff is clearing but it is a mildly decent look though

[Arctic]

If gemma and murska are really town PRs then wolves kinda got fucked by this rand lmao

And in that case my new dartboard of a team would be gh/visor/ender

also benneh why did u use a different font for that last post

[nebjiamn]

what kind of degenerate would wake up early on a saturday just to see a flip


:curtain:

[nebjiamn]

If gemma and murska are really town PRs then wolves kinda got fucked by this rand lmao

And in that case my new dartboard of a team would be gh/visor/ender

also benneh why did u use a different font for that last post
clicked on it on accident while writing it, too lazy to fix

[nebjiamn]

unrelatedly

is there no spoiler button on this site? why can't i find it? i had to type those spoiler tags MANUALLY

a travesty of wasted time

[Arctic]

I have to be up early tomorrow because I'm getting my car serviced

if maj is gonna happen let me know and I'll drop my thoughts on Logic (gonna have to do it this evening anyway because I'm not doing that @#$%^ on mobile lol)

If you think it's dya over visor in your dichotomy why are u not like, fighting for it? I mean I could be sold on a dya vote, so could logic

and whats the reason for even withholding your thoughts on logic

[GeneralHankerchief]

unrelatedly

is there no spoiler button on this site? why can't i find it? i had to type those spoiler tags MANUALLY

a travesty of wasted time

there is, but you have to go into advanced reply mode to get it

it's the white exclamation point in the red circle near the right of the post formatting icons

[Jan]

can we maj tonight?

i'd love to see visor's flip tonight instead of waking up on a saturday

Early Maj is only worth it if you do it within the first 24 hours.
Doing it now if he is a villager is atrocious because there is no actual upside outside of you wanting a flip before you go to bed.
Mechanically speaking it is only bad.

At RPG group still. Doubt I will do much/anything before I wake up.

[Arctic]

unrelatedly

is there no spoiler button on this site? why can't i find it? i had to type those spoiler tags MANUALLY

a travesty of wasted time

there is if you go into advanced mode it's the red exclamation point

[GeneralHankerchief]

If you think it's dya over visor in your dichotomy why are u not like, fighting for it? I mean I could be sold on a dya vote, so could logic

think I expressed pretty clearly why I was leaning dya last night and how that's a very changeable opinion

(and considering how Visor's posted since then,)

feel like you should have had the answer to this

[nebjiamn]

Early Maj is only worth it if you do it within the first 24 hours.
Doing it now if he is a villager is atrocious because there is no actual upside outside of you wanting a flip before you go to bed.
Mechanically speaking it is only bad.

At RPG group still. Doubt I will do much/anything before I wake up.
there are out of game upsides!

[EnderWiggin]

i love how you called me out for the self-meta re: not bussing in a way that gets me zero cred and you're doing the exact same thing here lol

why do you even wolfread me? idgi. you've pointed out the thing about self-meta and the post where i spoke about how the nightkill doesn't make it any more or less likely that syn was bussed, and neither of these things are actually wolfy if you think about them for more than 5 seconds

like i would normally not bother making posts like this but one of the places i keep fucking up in my reads is assuming that the people treating my slot awfully are just villagers sucking so i don't really engage with scumreads on me other than defending myself, so i'm trying to figure out whether you're just throwing shit around and it certainly does feel like that, and this is worsened by the fact i have no idea what your actual worldview is rn, so if you could drop a full readlist that would be helpful too

Your Self-meta post was you posting it defensively using it against suspicion.
Mine was only elaborated on because Ladd asked.

If you're a villager, then I absolutely buy that you can see things about your own play which should be clearing. But the point is that it's... not a defense. Mine isn't either. If people started voting me I wouldn't be pointing it as a reason people shouldn't. Neither if people sussed me.

"You can't self-meta" isn't my point. "Self-meta isn't a defense" is.

----------

Your actions around the wolf kill (Specifically around trying to soft push back against it being an indication that wolves probably bussed)
+
I still have sus on you for game start posting
+
All I remembered of your EOD was this sequence:

ok well im fine with syn dying


ignore what i just said about the wagons if syn is a wolf

(im not coming out of this looking good either way actually lmao


OK W/E, I really hope you guys are right about this

vote: Syn

Which I just thought was weird.

I also wanted to start the day with poking outside the current central POE because I don't think it has all the wolves, and it didn't need my help. (I was intentionally ignoring Visor stuff until after he posted in a sort of "I'm not going to sus him until I see what he's got. And lots of people are already voting there and I don't want a quick day". But I didn't SAY that because I didn't want that to be the tone of thread.)

But I also found it weirdly desynced when your EOD you were like "I don't look good coming out of this." and then your SOD you were like "I shouldn't be sussed." But that was after my initial sus so it wasn't why I was there. Also it feels mildly confbiasy so I don't really care that much.

[EnderWiggin]

more people should talk about ender imo

his posts today (in particular the arctic push) seem super fake

feel like he’s going UTR

I've been a semi-major discussion point with a bunch of people talking about me as sus or as town.

I don't think I can be called "UTR" in the slightest lmao.

[Arctic]

think I expressed pretty clearly why I was leaning dya last night and how that's a very changeable opinion

(and considering how Visor's posted since then,)

feel like you should have had the answer to this

i'm not asking why you think it's dya over visor i'm asking why you didn't try to convince anyone of it

i mean i get it now given visor's contributions today but i just find myself agreeing with benneh's assessment that u made the wall to scrape by to tomorrow

[EnderWiggin]

Also Hally now exists in the space of "I find their heavy pushing on me sus but I'm aware I tend to react badly to being heavily pushed so my read on them is ~probably compromised".

[Arctic]

Your Self-meta post was you posting it defensively using it against suspicion.
Mine was only elaborated on because Ladd asked.

If you're a villager, then I absolutely buy that you can see things about your own play which should be clearing. But the point is that it's... not a defense. Mine isn't either. If people started voting me I wouldn't be pointing it as a reason people shouldn't. Neither if people sussed me.

"You can't self-meta" isn't my point. "Self-meta isn't a defense" is.

----------

Your actions around the wolf kill (Specifically around trying to soft push back against it being an indication that wolves probably bussed)
+
I still have sus on you for game start posting
+
All I remembered of your EOD was this sequence:






Which I just thought was weird.

I also wanted to start the day with poking outside the current central POE because I don't think it has all the wolves, and it didn't need my help. (I was intentionally ignoring Visor stuff until after he posted in a sort of "I'm not going to sus him until I see what he's got. And lots of people are already voting there and I don't want a quick day". But I didn't SAY that because I didn't want that to be the tone of thread.)

But I also found it weirdly desynced when your EOD you were like "I don't look good coming out of this." and then your SOD you were like "I shouldn't be sussed." But that was after my initial sus so it wasn't why I was there. Also it feels mildly confbiasy so I don't really care that much.

quote 1 is why im town
quote 2 is me being a silly little guy
quote 3 is a copypasta

i mean the last part sounds reasonable i guess

can u give a full readlist

[EnderWiggin]

i'm not asking why you think it's dya over visor i'm asking why you didn't try to convince anyone of it

i mean i get it now given visor's contributions today but i just find myself agreeing with benneh's assessment that u made the wall to scrape by to tomorrow

I'll put an echo on the GH statement.

[EnderWiggin]

quote 1 is why im town
quote 2 is me being a silly little guy
quote 3 is a copypasta

i mean the last part sounds reasonable i guess

can u give a full readlist

Quote 1 you weren't even voting there but it was after a wave of anti-Syn sentiment. I wouldn't ever call that town lmao.

Sure on the Full Readslist, I think I exist about:

Claimed Blessed of the Deities:
Murska
Gemma

Holy Saints of Purity:
Raskolnikov
Wisdom

Saints of more dubious Purity:
Dyachei
Ladd
Benneh
Vanta Black (This one is very much a vibe read and I'll admit it's weak but it feels good.)

Saints of true Neutrality:
Hally (Had them as slightly higher than "idk" but see previous post.)

Saints with mild Scandals:
Logic
Jan

Saints with Dirty Closets:
Arctic
GH
Visor

Most vile Saints of Depravity:
Ender

[Arctic]

ngl im pretty sure visor and GH are just mafia and the hard part is figuring out who tf is the last and if it's neither of the PR claims/softs then it's either dya or ender or somebody is fooling me (vanta or logic most likely)

btw Murska rask has been kind of afk today can u save hally or benjamin instead :pleading:

[Arctic]

the funny thing is even if gh and visor are both mafia im still not gonna escape the poe even though ive done nothing to advance the wolf agenda this entire game

[Murska]

ngl im pretty sure visor and GH are just mafia and the hard part is figuring out who tf is the last and if it's neither of the PR claims/softs then it's either dya or ender or somebody is fooling me (vanta or logic most likely)

btw Murska rask has been kind of afk today can u save hally or benjamin instead :pleading:

Oh hey. I've been kinda busy for today, and I'm pretty confident we're going to get Visor by EoD anyway unless something crazy happens so there's not too much to say.

I'll make my actual decision on what to do based on EoD and flip of course, but I'm telling the wolves (listen closely now!) that I'll protect Rask every night regardless.

[Hally]

ngl im pretty sure visor and GH are just mafia and the hard part is figuring out who tf is the last and if it's neither of the PR claims/softs then it's either dya or ender or somebody is fooling me (vanta or logic most likely)

btw Murska rask has been kind of afk today can u save hally or benjamin instead :pleading:
https://i.imgur.com/bDjycUN_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand

[Hally]

ender putting vanta above me in his reads list has caused me immense psychic damage


(tbh i do agree vanta sounds kinda pure tonally even though content wise i’m not sure they’ve actually made an AI post this game)

[nebjiamn]

i think #1043 was mildly villagery. some of the stuff like questioning why he put me so high, pushing on GH a bit about how his alignment depends on logic both seem like kinda towny thoughts

nothing unfakeable but i kinda agree with vibe reading that slot town ?for now

[dyachei]

I don't get how you can look at what gh has done today and think I could be partnered with him

I'm at logic/gh/visor probably contain at least 2

[dyachei]

Ben what's your team rn

[nebjiamn]

I don't get how you can look at what gh has done today and think I could be partnered with him

I'm at logic/gh/visor probably contain at least 2

who said that?


Ben what's your team rn
i guess some amalgamation of visor/ender/logic/gh idk

side of gemma/arctic/vanta next up i guess?

i might do another reads list before i cap out

[dyachei]

who said that?


i guess some amalgamation of visor/ender/logic/gh idk

side of gemma/arctic/vanta next up i guess?

i might do another reads list before i cap out
Arctic keeps saying it

[nebjiamn]

Arctic keeps saying it
can you lay out why you don't think you're a fit with visor?

i mean, i'm v reading you but if push came to shove i don't know that i'd have much to show that unaligns you two

this is probly an annoying question but entertain me, i guess? (or don't idc)

[nebjiamn]

i've reached the pre-flipping of visor stage of the day

i'll go back to lurking and save my last 3 posts or whatever (inb4 this is my last) til GH drops a logic bomb on us before bedtime

[dyachei]

can you lay out why you don't think you're a fit with visor?

i mean, i'm v reading you but if push came to shove i don't know that i'd have much to show that unaligns you two

this is probly an annoying question but entertain me, i guess? (or don't idc)
I said I'm v if gh is w.

Visor can be with anyone because he's done jack shit

Bit I think ghs explanation of why he's choosing to give visor benefit of the doubt and not me plus him inexplicably only pushing me today makes us not w/w.

It also makes gh/visor more likely imo

[nebjiamn]

oh my bad, sorry, i mixed up what you said

[GeneralHankerchief]

BG3 patch is 17 gigs so you're gonna get the Logic thing a bit early lol

it's gonna be short and it's gonna be disappointing and it's probably gonna look incredibly wolfy too

but it's incoming

[nebjiamn]

i agree that you are very unlikely to be teamed with gh

[nebjiamn]

My one hesitation on a visor/gh world (well actually there’s more than one, but w/e) is that I feel like visor probly doesn’t struggle to re-enter today with gh as a partner?

I mean, visor might just be busy af and tired, which is the silly caveat for this kind of read but I do feel like there’d just be more energy if those 2 randed wolf together and we’d probably have seen some spark of that from visor on d1?

[Arctic]

I said I'm v if gh is w.

Visor can be with anyone because he's done jack shit

Bit I think ghs explanation of why he's choosing to give visor benefit of the doubt and not me plus him inexplicably only pushing me today makes us not w/w.

It also makes gh/visor more likely imo

It doesn't cuz he's not actually pushing you lol he just said you're more likely to be wolf of the two when it's clear visor is dying and he made no attempt to convince people to kill you, so I don't find this convincing at all

[Hally]

My one hesitation on a visor/gh world (well actually there’s more than one, but w/e) is that I feel like visor probly doesn’t struggle to re-enter today with gh as a partner?

I mean, visor might just be busy af and tired, which is the silly caveat for this kind of read but I do feel like there’d just be more energy if those 2 randed wolf together and we’d probably have seen some spark of that from visor on d1?
i actually had a similar thought re: gh earlier itg cuz i remember in the invitational gh/newc/ladd/manti were wolves together (goddamn what a team) visor or lissa or someone made a read that gh probably wasn’t a wolf with his friends because his posts would have more “panache” (i don’t know what that word means but i think from context it means flair or spark or something)

but i didn’t post about it cuz the read ended up being wrong that game :curtain:

[dyachei]

It doesn't cuz he's not actually pushing you lol he just said you're more likely to be wolf of the two when it's clear visor is dying and he made no attempt to convince people to kill you, so I don't find this convincing at all

it does matter because GH knew how I'd take being told that he wasn't willing to give me the same benefits as visor

but this is my problem with you in a nutshell

you came to the conclusion i was a wolf through other people's posting and you're not willing to re-evaluate when new information comes to light

if you're a villager, I've never seen you tunnel this wrongly before so I don't think you are

[Hally]

it does matter because GH knew how I'd take being told that he wasn't willing to give me the same benefits as visor

but this is my problem with you in a nutshell

you came to the conclusion i was a wolf through other people's posting and you're not willing to re-evaluate when new information comes to light

if you're a villager, I've never seen you tunnel this wrongly before so I don't think you are
uh

how much have you actually played with arctic? cuz afaik he kinda gets memed on a lot for confidently tunneling people incorrectly

poor wittle arcy (he is a really good villager fwiw, no shade)

[dyachei]

uh

how much have you actually played with arctic? cuz afaik he kinda gets memed on a lot for confidently tunneling people incorrectly

poor wittle arcy (he is a really good villager fwiw, no shade)

havent played a ton with him, but he's usually more accurate than this and I've seen him re-evaluate a number of times

[GeneralHankerchief]

Your hedginess on visor is noted

Where I am seeing a wolf-siding villager in visor: for one, he's asking one confirmed town and one I suspect of being (mostly) town to kill murska, a LHF that now we know has claimed Doctor (not to be confused with Dr Horrible). I don't see murska as scummy, but that could be the fact that he has posted somewhere in the range of a dozen times thus far.

Second, visor doesn't seem to have an agenda. He feels too "can't be assed" to GAF, and I don't think that's his scum game.

Regarding GH: this comes down to a self-absorbed meta read, but the fact that he has only stated my alignment correctly as town and always gotten it wrong when scum has me thinking the trend continues. There definitely is the wifom that he's finally doing it differently this time (because he's scum) but I'm calling GH town and I know I won't be alive to have to reassess.

And fair enough on "my read sucks" (there) but do you have anything to say about seemingly backing off on your scumread of me between p#779 and p#807 (both yours, but I think p#802 is the one that really is the shows the "progression" that I think it lacking.

Ok, this post. This is the post where I got fed up enough about Logic to stop caring about staking myself to his alignment in this game.

The "godread", so to speak, came into being at some point around 2018 (2019?) and peaked in 2020 during a team game where my team (feat. Zack and Visor, all of whom have a good amount of experience with Logic and can typically read him well) hardlocked him as a villager pretty early in d1 and fought off a number of pushes on him. We were n1'd in that game after having effectively perfect reads (this part isn't critical to the post but I just wanted to brag about it :laserlissa:) and the strength of our read held until something ridiculously late like D6 when his slot got POE'd and flipped town.

Later in 2020 into 2021, things took a turn for the worse, coinciding with a stretch of wolf rands I had in games with Logic. Sometimes he was my partner. Sometimes he was town. And buddy, let me tell you, those games, with that read being known as it was, was rough to play around lol. If we were w/v, I knew I couldn't push him because it would insta-out me after he flipped (and he would flip early because I'd be the one pushing him lol), and if I cleared him, he would be spewed town. If we were w/w, I couldn't bus him and if I tried to clear him it would instantly look suspicious after either of us flipped. People were immediately looking to me for an insta-read on the slot and it sucked lol. Logic progressively became aware of it and I think even he will freely say that he leaned on its accuracy in order to resolve my slot. I eventually disclaimed the "godread" aspect but that was like a month or two before I quit playing so I don't think it took hold. Notably, I'm not sure *Logic* was ever made aware of said disclaiming it.

---

So I stop playing, come back for this, and Logic's in the game! Cool, Logic is my friend. My first thought is "please don't rand wolf". My second is "please don't rand wolf specifically so I don't have to pick back up the Logic song and dance". Mission accomplished, I randed town (no, really, I did! would I lie? :curtain:). I was gonna take it nice and easy, not force any reads, just let the game come to me and hopefully that would be enough to get me villaread (oops).

The way I read Logic is a combination of factors, but it has nothing to do with his actual reads, their consistency (which he's been dinged for this game), or quality. That has never factored in for me. Back in years past, it was primarily based around depth of thought, which I believe Zack alluded to on D1. But there was a gradual shift in his game and mine, and now that's less useful for me. Instead, it's primarily based on "is he classically wolfy?" Was there awkward tiptoeing interactions? Was there a weird case on someone? If the answer was yes, look for the force behind it - if it seemed like he really believed in it, it meant he was probably town, regardless of the actual consistency or quality of the case. If the answer was no, it was a potential bus.

The first half of d1, when I was shitposting, I was monitoring Logic's posts. They didn't look good. I didn't want to say anything because a) I wanted to give him time to turn it around, and b) I was still shitposting lol. But I definitely said that first irl night that if he posted overnight and didn't improve, I was gonna come in and dumpster in.

But that overnight, they did improve. It was enough for me to get my read turned around on him. It seemed like he wasn't just kind of poking people with a limp noodle but actually hitting what he perceived as bad posts with some teeth. So I made my read in the thread, figured that I'd get backup from Zack and Visor (who can also read him well, remember), and that would be a nice jump-off point for me getting into the rest of the game.

lol

It didn't quite happen that way. Zack had the complete opposite POV, we got into an argument about it, Logic became a major topic of discussion, and I felt myself being dragged back into that world where I HAD to get the read right if I was to have any chance in the game. It was a position I was in a lot as villa in my final games in 2021 before I stopped playing, and now, here it was supercharged: the guy I had a reputation for reading well, going up against a) the consensus top town, b) someone else who could also read him well, and c) a good friend. Great. lol

I was tired of it, man. I wanted to play mafia. I didn't want to play around Logic's alignment for the fourteenth consecutive game, on d1, and have that dictate the remainder of my future itg. And yes, behind the scenes, Zack's confidence on Logic (and Visor's too, to a lesser extent) did shake me for a bit and had me reconsidering. Did I express any of this in the thread? of course not lol. I guess I was just hoping that the Logic thing would blow over on its own.

Well, fast forward to d2 and obviously the Logic thing has very much not blown over, as we can see here. Zack died overnight, so he and I couldn't chat about it. Visor's been afk all phase. I was still monitoring Logic's posts but was honestly vacillating as to what I believed in. One stretch looked wolfy and had me question everything. Another stretch made me feel better about him. Back and forth it went.

And then Logic dropped the post I quoted above (remember that post? I'll wait while you scroll back up) and it had all the same stuff in it that frustrated me back in the day: the overly leaning on my read of him to make a read on me. My perception of him coasting depending on my judgement of him. I read it and I got fed up with it. So I made that post faking that I had made some sort of revelation as to his alignment in order to just kill off discussion for an irl day and to get people looking elsewhere because otherwise it was gonna be the second consecutive gameday of The Great Logic Debate which, just, god I was so not in the mood for.

---

I don't know what Logic's alignment is. Gun to head, I still think he's town, but there's doubt. There's doubt because otherwise my POE is, like, exactly [dya/visor]/Gemma/Vanta, which if that's actually the team I'd be shocked, and idk where to go after that. There's doubt because Logic has not been sustainedly villagery like he was in that one team game back in 2020. There's doubt because it's been years since I've actually seen him in a game.

I just want it to be done with. I just want to know what Logic's alignment is so I can determine my footing in the thread for the rest of the game and see exactly how long I need to spend preparing my apology to Zack in postgame, whether it's just a couple minutes, or, like, an hour. It doesn't matter as much because Visor is likely dying today which means the Logic debate will continue, but I'm washing my hands of it. Decide and be done with it. The shield is removed. I'm not saying he's a wolf. I'm saying idk lol. I'm free. The godread is dead. If he's a wolf then I'm dying in short order after and at least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I'll never be lashed to this stupid read again if I ever play again. If he's town then at least I was right. :laugh4:

[GeneralHankerchief]

tired: making reads off, like, posts people made in the game and reasoned analyses of the gamestate

wired: getting vibes off social dynamics both in thread and anticipatory postgame reactions

(in this scenario, the "wired" set of reads get you put in the POE rather quickly. who knew!) :curtain:

[nebjiamn]

Ok, this post. This is the post where I got fed up enough about Logic to stop caring about staking myself to his alignment in this game.

The "godread", so to speak, came into being at some point around 2018 (2019?) and peaked in 2020 during a team game where my team (feat. Zack and Visor, all of whom have a good amount of experience with Logic and can typically read him well) hardlocked him as a villager pretty early in d1 and fought off a number of pushes on him. We were n1'd in that game after having effectively perfect reads (this part isn't critical to the post but I just wanted to brag about it :laserlissa:) and the strength of our read held until something ridiculously late like D6 when his slot got POE'd and flipped town.

Later in 2020 into 2021, things took a turn for the worse, coinciding with a stretch of wolf rands I had in games with Logic. Sometimes he was my partner. Sometimes he was town. And buddy, let me tell you, those games, with that read being known as it was, was rough to play around lol. If we were w/v, I knew I couldn't push him because it would insta-out me after he flipped (and he would flip early because I'd be the one pushing him lol), and if I cleared him, he would be spewed town. If we were w/w, I couldn't bus him and if I tried to clear him it would instantly look suspicious after either of us flipped. People were immediately looking to me for an insta-read on the slot and it sucked lol. Logic progressively became aware of it and I think even he will freely say that he leaned on its accuracy in order to resolve my slot. I eventually disclaimed the "godread" aspect but that was like a month or two before I quit playing so I don't think it took hold. Notably, I'm not sure *Logic* was ever made aware of said disclaiming it.

---

So I stop playing, come back for this, and Logic's in the game! Cool, Logic is my friend. My first thought is "please don't rand wolf". My second is "please don't rand wolf specifically so I don't have to pick back up the Logic song and dance". Mission accomplished, I randed town (no, really, I did! would I lie? :curtain:). I was gonna take it nice and easy, not force any reads, just let the game come to me and hopefully that would be enough to get me villaread (oops).

The way I read Logic is a combination of factors, but it has nothing to do with his actual reads, their consistency (which he's been dinged for this game), or quality. That has never factored in for me. Back in years past, it was primarily based around depth of thought, which I believe Zack alluded to on D1. But there was a gradual shift in his game and mine, and now that's less useful for me. Instead, it's primarily based on "is he classically wolfy?" Was there awkward tiptoeing interactions? Was there a weird case on someone? If the answer was yes, look for the force behind it - if it seemed like he really believed in it, it meant he was probably town, regardless of the actual consistency or quality of the case. If the answer was no, it was a potential bus.

The first half of d1, when I was shitposting, I was monitoring Logic's posts. They didn't look good. I didn't want to say anything because a) I wanted to give him time to turn it around, and b) I was still shitposting lol. But I definitely said that first irl night that if he posted overnight and didn't improve, I was gonna come in and dumpster in.

But that overnight, they did improve. It was enough for me to get my read turned around on him. It seemed like he wasn't just kind of poking people with a limp noodle but actually hitting what he perceived as bad posts with some teeth. So I made my read in the thread, figured that I'd get backup from Zack and Visor (who can also read him well, remember), and that would be a nice jump-off point for me getting into the rest of the game.

lol

It didn't quite happen that way. Zack had the complete opposite POV, we got into an argument about it, Logic became a major topic of discussion, and I felt myself being dragged back into that world where I HAD to get the read right if I was to have any chance in the game. It was a position I was in a lot as villa in my final games in 2021 before I stopped playing, and now, here it was supercharged: the guy I had a reputation for reading well, going up against a) the consensus top town, b) someone else who could also read him well, and c) a good friend. Great. lol

I was tired of it, man. I wanted to play mafia. I didn't want to play around Logic's alignment for the fourteenth consecutive game, on d1, and have that dictate the remainder of my future itg. And yes, behind the scenes, Zack's confidence on Logic (and Visor's too, to a lesser extent) did shake me for a bit and had me reconsidering. Did I express any of this in the thread? of course not lol. I guess I was just hoping that the Logic thing would blow over on its own.

Well, fast forward to d2 and obviously the Logic thing has very much not blown over, as we can see here. Zack died overnight, so he and I couldn't chat about it. Visor's been afk all phase. I was still monitoring Logic's posts but was honestly vacillating as to what I believed in. One stretch looked wolfy and had me question everything. Another stretch made me feel better about him. Back and forth it went.

And then Logic dropped the post I quoted above (remember that post? I'll wait while you scroll back up) and it had all the same stuff in it that frustrated me back in the day: the overly leaning on my read of him to make a read on me. My perception of him coasting depending on my judgement of him. I read it and I got fed up with it. So I made that post faking that I had made some sort of revelation as to his alignment in order to just kill off discussion for an irl day and to get people looking elsewhere because otherwise it was gonna be the second consecutive gameday of The Great Logic Debate which, just, god I was so not in the mood for.

---

I don't know what Logic's alignment is. Gun to head, I still think he's town, but there's doubt. There's doubt because otherwise my POE is, like, exactly [dya/visor]/Gemma/Vanta, which if that's actually the team I'd be shocked, and idk where to go after that. There's doubt because Logic has not been sustainedly villagery like he was in that one team game back in 2020. There's doubt because it's been years since I've actually seen him in a game.

I just want it to be done with. I just want to know what Logic's alignment is so I can determine my footing in the thread for the rest of the game and see exactly how long I need to spend preparing my apology to Zack in postgame, whether it's just a couple minutes, or, like, an hour. It doesn't matter as much because Visor is likely dying today which means the Logic debate will continue, but I'm washing my hands of it. Decide and be done with it. The shield is removed. I'm not saying he's a wolf. I'm saying idk lol. I'm free. The godread is dead. If he's a wolf then I'm dying in short order after and at least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I'll never be lashed to this stupid read again if I ever play again. If he's town then at least I was right. :laugh4:
thanks. give me a minute to digest this and i'll respond to you shortly with my thoughts

[GeneralHankerchief]

zack, in dvc reading the above: "idk why you just talked this through in the thread man, we could have avoided all this"

me, with a cutting response: "s-shut up ok"

[dyachei]

My pov on that is it was a lot of words to say you don't know logics alignment and you still suss the same people.

I get why you don't want to play around it but like. You could have just said that

[GeneralHankerchief]

I get why you don't want to play around it but like. You could have just said that

s-shut up ok

[Hally]

tl;dr - we got pranked

[Vanta Black]

thanks for the reads

i’m curious why i’m so high? i remember you saying last day you had no read on me despite me posting a lot, curious what changed

It might be frequency bias from when I ISO'd you. Do you want to be lower? I can move you!

[Vanta Black]

Ok, this post. This is the post where I got fed up enough about Logic to stop caring about staking myself to his alignment in this game.

The "godread", so to speak, came into being at some point around 2018 (2019?) and peaked in 2020 during a team game where my team (feat. Zack and Visor, all of whom have a good amount of experience with Logic and can typically read him well) hardlocked him as a villager pretty early in d1 and fought off a number of pushes on him. We were n1'd in that game after having effectively perfect reads (this part isn't critical to the post but I just wanted to brag about it :laserlissa:) and the strength of our read held until something ridiculously late like D6 when his slot got POE'd and flipped town.

Later in 2020 into 2021, things took a turn for the worse, coinciding with a stretch of wolf rands I had in games with Logic. Sometimes he was my partner. Sometimes he was town. And buddy, let me tell you, those games, with that read being known as it was, was rough to play around lol. If we were w/v, I knew I couldn't push him because it would insta-out me after he flipped (and he would flip early because I'd be the one pushing him lol), and if I cleared him, he would be spewed town. If we were w/w, I couldn't bus him and if I tried to clear him it would instantly look suspicious after either of us flipped. People were immediately looking to me for an insta-read on the slot and it sucked lol. Logic progressively became aware of it and I think even he will freely say that he leaned on its accuracy in order to resolve my slot. I eventually disclaimed the "godread" aspect but that was like a month or two before I quit playing so I don't think it took hold. Notably, I'm not sure *Logic* was ever made aware of said disclaiming it.

---

So I stop playing, come back for this, and Logic's in the game! Cool, Logic is my friend. My first thought is "please don't rand wolf". My second is "please don't rand wolf specifically so I don't have to pick back up the Logic song and dance". Mission accomplished, I randed town (no, really, I did! would I lie? :curtain:). I was gonna take it nice and easy, not force any reads, just let the game come to me and hopefully that would be enough to get me villaread (oops).

The way I read Logic is a combination of factors, but it has nothing to do with his actual reads, their consistency (which he's been dinged for this game), or quality. That has never factored in for me. Back in years past, it was primarily based around depth of thought, which I believe Zack alluded to on D1. But there was a gradual shift in his game and mine, and now that's less useful for me. Instead, it's primarily based on "is he classically wolfy?" Was there awkward tiptoeing interactions? Was there a weird case on someone? If the answer was yes, look for the force behind it - if it seemed like he really believed in it, it meant he was probably town, regardless of the actual consistency or quality of the case. If the answer was no, it was a potential bus.

The first half of d1, when I was shitposting, I was monitoring Logic's posts. They didn't look good. I didn't want to say anything because a) I wanted to give him time to turn it around, and b) I was still shitposting lol. But I definitely said that first irl night that if he posted overnight and didn't improve, I was gonna come in and dumpster in.

But that overnight, they did improve. It was enough for me to get my read turned around on him. It seemed like he wasn't just kind of poking people with a limp noodle but actually hitting what he perceived as bad posts with some teeth. So I made my read in the thread, figured that I'd get backup from Zack and Visor (who can also read him well, remember), and that would be a nice jump-off point for me getting into the rest of the game.

lol

It didn't quite happen that way. Zack had the complete opposite POV, we got into an argument about it, Logic became a major topic of discussion, and I felt myself being dragged back into that world where I HAD to get the read right if I was to have any chance in the game. It was a position I was in a lot as villa in my final games in 2021 before I stopped playing, and now, here it was supercharged: the guy I had a reputation for reading well, going up against a) the consensus top town, b) someone else who could also read him well, and c) a good friend. Great. lol

I was tired of it, man. I wanted to play mafia. I didn't want to play around Logic's alignment for the fourteenth consecutive game, on d1, and have that dictate the remainder of my future itg. And yes, behind the scenes, Zack's confidence on Logic (and Visor's too, to a lesser extent) did shake me for a bit and had me reconsidering. Did I express any of this in the thread? of course not lol. I guess I was just hoping that the Logic thing would blow over on its own.

Well, fast forward to d2 and obviously the Logic thing has very much not blown over, as we can see here. Zack died overnight, so he and I couldn't chat about it. Visor's been afk all phase. I was still monitoring Logic's posts but was honestly vacillating as to what I believed in. One stretch looked wolfy and had me question everything. Another stretch made me feel better about him. Back and forth it went.

And then Logic dropped the post I quoted above (remember that post? I'll wait while you scroll back up) and it had all the same stuff in it that frustrated me back in the day: the overly leaning on my read of him to make a read on me. My perception of him coasting depending on my judgement of him. I read it and I got fed up with it. So I made that post faking that I had made some sort of revelation as to his alignment in order to just kill off discussion for an irl day and to get people looking elsewhere because otherwise it was gonna be the second consecutive gameday of The Great Logic Debate which, just, god I was so not in the mood for.

---

I don't know what Logic's alignment is. Gun to head, I still think he's town, but there's doubt. There's doubt because otherwise my POE is, like, exactly [dya/visor]/Gemma/Vanta, which if that's actually the team I'd be shocked, and idk where to go after that. There's doubt because Logic has not been sustainedly villagery like he was in that one team game back in 2020. There's doubt because it's been years since I've actually seen him in a game.

I just want it to be done with. I just want to know what Logic's alignment is so I can determine my footing in the thread for the rest of the game and see exactly how long I need to spend preparing my apology to Zack in postgame, whether it's just a couple minutes, or, like, an hour. It doesn't matter as much because Visor is likely dying today which means the Logic debate will continue, but I'm washing my hands of it. Decide and be done with it. The shield is removed. I'm not saying he's a wolf. I'm saying idk lol. I'm free. The godread is dead. If he's a wolf then I'm dying in short order after and at least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I'll never be lashed to this stupid read again if I ever play again. If he's town then at least I was right. :laugh4:

good grief

[Vanta Black]

I just want to say that I spent like two days reading "drop the shield" as meaning "remove the shield" so I was very confused.

[GeneralHankerchief]

free read: somebody who pushes the "GH has to die because he had the AUDACITY to mislead us about Logic on d2!" angle is a wolf

if you're a wolf looking to seal the mislim, it will be much more under the radar if you instead push me for my shallow overall gamestate thoughts and poor interactions with/about the first two flipped wolves :curtain:

remember this for d5

[Hally]

hey guys i think we should lunch gh for his shallow overall gamestate thoughts and poor interactions with/about the first two flipped wolves

[EnderWiggin]

Guys I think we should lunch GH for misleading us horribly about his Logic read.

[Vanta Black]

hey guys i think we should lunch gh for his shallow overall gamestate thoughts and poor interactions with/about the first two flipped wolves

No I think we should lunch him because he misled us about Logic on D2.

[Vanta Black]

Curse you, Bl...uh, Ender!

[Murska]

hey guys how about we lunch gh just for fun, for no particular reason

[dyachei]

hey guys how about we lunch gh just for fun, for no particular reason

i'm game

[Logic]

ender putting vanta above me in his reads list has caused me immense psychic damage


(tbh i do agree vanta sounds kinda pure tonally even though content wise i’m not sure they’ve actually made an AI post this game)

This post will be mostly out of order

Quote 1 you weren't even voting there but it was after a wave of anti-Syn sentiment. I wouldn't ever call that town lmao.

Sure on the Full Readslist, I think I exist about:

Claimed Blessed of the Deities:
Murska
Gemma

Holy Saints of Purity:
Raskolnikov
Wisdom

Saints of more dubious Purity:
Dyachei
Ladd
Benneh
Vanta Black (This one is very much a vibe read and I'll admit it's weak but it feels good.)

Saints of true Neutrality:
Hally (Had them as slightly higher than "idk" but see previous post.)

Saints with mild Scandals:
Logic
Jan

Saints with Dirty Closets:
Arctic
GH
Visor

Most vile Saints of Depravity:
Ender

Ender, you are slightly going against the grain with me, so why are you putting yourself, GH, Arctic below me, and Jan on the same tier? What the hell is with that Vanta read that high? Are you high?


I have to be up early tomorrow because I'm getting my car serviced

if maj is gonna happen let me know and I'll drop my thoughts on Logic (gonna have to do it this evening anyway because I'm not doing that @#$%^ on mobile lol)

I now have even more reason to Max out my posts for the day.

Overall, I think the way GH has approached my slot is towny. "I'll drop a case later" gives the thread room to breathe around my slot without "going against the godread.
47/50

[Logic]

I should have refreshed before posting, but I see GH dropped a wall regarding reading me and I saw "GTH town" and didn't read the rest.

I am officially at GH/Visor town.

Dya looks less scum than before, and I'm inclined to vote one of Ender/arctic.

Talk to me and convince me where you want my vote because I am not going to go looking for the vote count.
Unvote: Dya
48/50

[EnderWiggin]

Ender, you are slightly going against the grain with me, so why are you putting yourself, GH, Arctic below me, and Jan on the same tier? What the hell is with that Vanta read that high? Are you high?

Arctic? You haven't read my other posts have you.
GH? I just don't like the current posts. Most of this day has felt like rolling around and I feel like there's a self-created trap around you he's made.
Jan? Again not reading my posts I see.
Vanta? My god you're not even reading the post you're quoting
Me? I'm obviously the sussiest boi around.

Am I high? *Insert Bruce Banner Avengers meme.*

[Hally]

before we maj visor and/or i accidentally postcap myself shitposting, idt i actually gave a read on benneh this game

first of all, he stinks

second, i’m fairly sure he’s a villager for boring self centered reasons that boil down to his pov has resonated with me a lot and if he was a wolf i would expect him to be making moves to advance his wincon but i’m not really seeing where he is doing that so far this game unless i completely suck and have been wolf siding a lot (which is definitely possible! in which case the team is like benneh/arctic/jan or something hehe)

he is also just making good posts independent of that (yes i am aware his wolf range is ginormous)

i’m really just making this post so i can say i read him correctly (or he can pin it in wolfchat and laugh at me) cuz i think wolves will kill him before his alignment becomes relevant assuming we don’t sweep :curtain:

am i learning benneh? pleadingface

[Hally]

I should have refreshed before posting, but I see GH dropped a wall regarding reading me and I saw "GTH town" and didn't read the rest.

I am officially at GH/Visor town.

Dya looks less scum than before, and I'm inclined to vote one of Ender/arctic.

Talk to me and convince me where you want my vote because I am not going to go looking for the vote count.
Unvote: Dya
48/50
how do you still think visor is town lmao

i almost feel like you’re trolling

[Arctic]

it does matter because GH knew how I'd take being told that he wasn't willing to give me the same benefits as visor

but this is my problem with you in a nutshell

you came to the conclusion i was a wolf through other people's posting and you're not willing to re-evaluate when new information comes to light

if you're a villager, I've never seen you tunnel this wrongly before so I don't think you are

we don't have any more information yet it's day 2

and i dunno what you're on about wrt other people's posting, i'm just saying you aren't clear from certain people flipping wolf, not that it makes you more likely to be a wolf

this is hardly even a tunnel, at least not by my standards, you should have seen me 3 years ago. i'm just not townreading you and i don't think there are any convincing reasons to do so and nobody disagrees with this assessment as far as i'm aware so i have no obligation to re-evaluate

[Arctic]

havent played a ton with him, but he's usually more accurate than this and I've seen him re-evaluate a number of times

"more accurate than this" bruh if you're town it's 1 misread and i could have a poe of all the wolves and one or two villas

[Logic]

how do you still think visor is town lmao

i almost feel like you’re trolling

Being lazy does not equal scum.
I still have yet to see a post of his that looks like it's got agenda in it.

I suppose this answers my question of "Two?" Regarding your p#1159

[dyachei]

to speak like you arctic

bruh it's every villagers responsibility to continually re-evaluate

[Hally]

I still have yet to see a post of his
you’re so close! :laugh3:

[Logic]

to speak like you arctic

bruh it's every villagers responsibility to continually re-evaluate

Shroopy post, friendo.


you’re so close! :laugh3:

You laugh, but I maintain that I think visor is being lazy, not scummy.

And because I don't think I will be back to read more

Vote: Arctic

You guys go vote out visor and I'll be here to say "I told you so" when he flips green.

[dyachei]

Shroopy post, friendo.



You laugh, but I maintain that I think visor is being lazy, not scummy.

And because I don't think I will be back to read more

Vote: Arctic

You guys go vote out visor and I'll be here to say "I told you so" when he flips green.

there's nothing shroopy about it but please explain. maybe you're parsing it weird because I forgot the apostrophe after the s in villagers

[Totally not Taffy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1208267985907752990/39hr_Vote_Count.png?ex=65e2aa40&is=65d03540&hm=63ad0dde424e8add71716c5e2cb4032559640959fea30568209d4f8be49ee898&

https://media1.tenor.com/m/Dmi2ziH7MpIAAAAC/thunderbirds-thunderbird2.gif

Mission accomplished!


Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh, Hally
Logic (2) : Dyachei, Ender
Gemma (1) : GH
Arctic (1) : Logic

Haven't voted: Visor, Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, Jan, Gemma


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord :heart:



Vote: Visor
Vote: Visor
Vote: Dya
Vote: Visor
vote: visor
vote: logic
Vote: Arctic
Vote: Gemma
Vote: Gemma
Vote: Logic
Unvote: Dya
Vote: Arctic


Post Counts
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1208274667597463602/image.png?ex=65e2b079&is=65d03b79&hm=23997acd47e50032f1f24ce1ee9550741b3ebe80ea27b3d0c10ed921056d40ad&

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642356582704742420/1207733558546800650/image.png?ex=65e0b886&is=65ce4386&hm=24f2d002f1563fc4444f60340aab88f35e10074608eda1b67adf3fa442ff1365&


It is now 6am and I'm going to bed. Sorry Benneh, no flips during naptime.

[Hally]

thanks. give me a minute to digest this and i'll respond to you shortly with my thoughts
i just realized benneh probably intentionally capped with this post lol

[GeneralHankerchief]

So if Visor flips red I'm basically the auto d3 and should start preparing my lolcats start giving the town a blueprint for d4 and beyond, right?

Do I get a temporary reprieve if he flips green, or is it "wait, I'm not ready to fully reexamine the POE yet, let's just flip GH to see how much reeval we need to do?"

All kidding aside, I would be grateful to be made aware of my exact status going into d3 just so I don't unnecessarily get my hopes up or something.

[Visor]

okay, I'm back

sorry for being awol, but that's life

not sure i will be able to not die lol but i'm not exactly going to shed tears if i do lol

[Visor]

i will say, i don't really understand why I am a wagon of any strength, yeah i've been afk today but that doesn't make my posts retroactively wolfy

and i don't think I did anything particularly wolfy anyway (you could argue i lacked villageriness and sure i guess but so have the last like 10 games i've played lol)

[Visor]

i've reached the pre-flipping of visor stage of the day

i'll go back to lurking and save my last 3 posts or whatever (inb4 this is my last) til GH drops a logic bomb on us before bedtime

you can preflip my nuts pal

[Visor]

i think there is a chance vanta black is very possibly a villager, i have been thinking about this for a bit now, but having played with them before (i actually wolfed with them fairly recently in a game Raskolnikov had a great time in :curtain:) i remember their game as a wolf being... controlling isn't the word but they had words for every situation to move the thread in the direction they wanted and i feel like they have just flat out failed to do so here - i understand that this is a very new playerlist on a new site, new everything for them but i don't feel like they would suck so much as a wolf to resort to posting about avatar or dog names as a means of generating content or pushing the game forward. this may be my spiciest read tbh, but i get the feeling that they are moreso just overwhelmed with how to process this game and are trying to work around that, rather than failing to post genuine solving content because they are a wolf

ymmv

[Jan]

Just woke up! Only skimmed the last page. Just wanted to make visor seem less lonely.

[Visor]

Id be pretty surprised if visor isnt a wolf

He pretended to care about mine and rask's reads on syn but he never really truly evaluated syn i feel

He asked me and rask to elaborate on why syn was wolfy for us, when we both already explained it in a way that AT LEAST it should have got him interested in checking what was up with syn instead he didnt really care, idk its a bit unfair i guess but id be surprised if as a villager he just writes syn off like that considering he like us played most org games

The murska push was sooo lazy coming from him imo

Idek why he pushed murska, among low posters murska was def 1 of the better ones

i don't think it would be fair (or charitable :curtain:) to say that i pretended to care or truly evaluated syn - the truth is i saw a tally with both you and raskol on it making him a wagon and i vaguely remembered a mention? or something of you asking what my thoughts were on his posts

so i just asked you to elaborate and i don't think i ever read the followup LOL (i don't know why, i probably just forgot about it lol)

i don't think me writing syn off means anything, his posts did nothing for me and thats that, it just looked like syns brand of syn that happens most games, you saw through it, great job, but i obviously could not at that point in time

i will say i didn't defend him either, but i don't think that means much lol

"The murska push was sooo lazy coming from him imo"

yes, it was. obviously. i just thought murskas posts sucked and voted there. i don't think being lazy is inherently wolfy and i'm certainly capable of actually posting reasons to kill people (as seen on the last game i wolfed here!)

this is kinda just a bad post from you that if you didn't just dumpster syn i'd be actively side eying because i think funnily enough it commits the same sin of what you are accusing me of, its just lazy

[Visor]

Just woke up! Only skimmed the last page. Just wanted to make visor seem less lonely.

will you hold my hand as we walk to the rope? you can wash it afterwards i don't mind

[Visor]

i'll copy ladd but with 99% less effort

v
zack
hally
rask
benneh

light v
ender
jan
ladd?

light w
gh?

benneh maybe too high but their wallpost is tbh probably the villageriest thing in the entire thread

hally because i find myself mindmelding with a lot of their posts, they seem liek they dont give a shit and just push on whatever big villa energy etc

rask kind of occupying the same space just smaller and more unhinged

jan having basically 3 reads this entire game and 2 of them being v charitable v reads is doing ntohing for his wincon if hes a wolf which im fine with for day 1

gh bad tocuh on logic, havnet hugely liked the way hes spent his ofcus so far this game too lazy to elaborate

everyone else nfc

syn had the thing where he basically ignored me when i asked him why he was w reading ender, he did say things later but eh

murska jan w reads them which predisposes me to do the same, they also seem like the kind of player/style id struggle to get a read on, literally zero opinion

vanta maybe their saying they're just going to read ppl based on avatar is actually openwolfing and i shouldnt be giving them a pass idk

so ye none of the lowposter yeets are particularly inpsiring but ig thats par for the course

this post (which is kind of a wolfy summary post (esp for someone who should be much more eloquent making essentially a post i would make)) and then the mass of questions they posted d1 which just kinda don't do anything made me feel bad on gemma

thoughts?

[Jan]

will you hold my hand as we walk to the rope? you can wash it afterwards i don't mind

I will wash the rope, yes.
My hands are dirty from all the daily procrastinating anyway.

[Visor]

theres two worlds of logic today imo, one where he is defending me to look good when i flip (but he still also has to actually solve the game as a wolf in this world and i don't believe logic is someone who would intentionally take on difficult tasks as a wolf (and theres always the fun argument when you get a contentious read right and then people accuse you of tmi lol))

and the one where he genuinely believes my actions are not coming from a wolf mindset and he is willing to put his neck out for it

for what its worth, the strength behind his conviction makes me heavily believe the latter, obviously i am incredibly biased and not able to judge this stuff fairly, but i have a harder time seeing a world where wolf logic doesn't just take the easy kill on me and i think his conviction is villagery (which is kinda funny considering my read on him d1, but i feel like this kind of conviction from him is just not something i associate with how he plays wolf).

[GeneralHankerchief]

this post (which is kind of a wolfy summary post (esp for someone who should be much more eloquent making essentially a post i would make)) and then the mass of questions they posted d1 which just kinda don't do anything made me feel bad on gemma

thoughts?

Hell with it man, you and I are already w/w apparently, let's make this happen.

Just one request, do not ask why I'm awake at 2am. :hide:

[Visor]

Shroopy post, friendo.



You laugh, but I maintain that I think visor is being lazy, not scummy.

And because I don't think I will be back to read more

Vote: Arctic

You guys go vote out visor and I'll be here to say "I told you so" when he flips green.

just don't think wolf logic posts this

i will post the D2 shield on logic (eat my ass zack)

[Visor]

Hell with it man, you and I are already w/w apparently, let's make this happen.

Just one request, do not ask why I'm awake at 2am. :hide:

https://media1.tenor.com/m/KbaIs6a6_5sAAAAC/handshake-predator.gif

[Visor]

Raskolnikov

vote gemma with me you croissant

Vote: gemma

[Visor]

also i think the way benneh and hally have gone about pushing me today is wolfy

i would expect more consideration/balance from both slots

but perhaps I am being uncharitable!

[GeneralHankerchief]

"GH he's obviously just pocketing you here don't be an idiot"

OH YEAH BECAUSE I HAVE SO MUCH TOWNCRED AND THREADPULL RIGHT NOW

[Jan]

this post (which is kind of a wolfy summary post (esp for someone who should be much more eloquent making essentially a post i would make)) and then the mass of questions they posted d1 which just kinda don't do anything made me feel bad on gemma

thoughts?

Both you and gemma have been awol all of today. It is rather hard to for me to get a grasp on gemma normally unless I get some sort of calling from above.
Thisgame I would give her a gth villager read because I know a month ago for the game I hosted she was disappointed about being a villager and would have preferred a wolf rand.

I don't know if that is still the case but based on that knowledge and her lackluster performance I think she is more likely to flip villa. I don't think that is enough to just keep her around forever and not reassess her.

To the post itself. you are not wrong. she has made the same read on me last game on here, which is an odd choice.
the only read that feels like it is specifically from this game and not a dollar-store-meta-reads-bundle is gh. (every other read could be copy pasted from a random old game).

[Jan]

also i think the way benneh and hally have gone about pushing me today is wolfy

i would expect more consideration/balance from both slots

but perhaps I am being uncharitable!

That is very much the "if we are wrong on the poe and the poe is just gh/logic and a bunch of lazy ppl" fear I have.

Both are slots that are ~vibe villa reads but Idon't have that single post that shines like a campfire in the cold night (I love having those posts to reaffirm my reads).

[Jan]

Raskolnikov

vote gemma with me you croissant

Vote: gemma

I don't like this based on gemma pr soft btw.

we killed a wolf d1 and I don't think we need to get rid of a pr soft/claim d2. we have enough time to give the slot a day and evaluate based on results.

I know that does not help you to live.

[Jan]

"GH he's obviously just pocketing you here don't be an idiot"

OH YEAH BECAUSE I HAVE SO MUCH TOWNCRED AND THREADPULL RIGHT NOW

Did you take a deep look into the red wine while playing videogames again?! :O

[GeneralHankerchief]

Did you take a deep look into the red wine while playing videogames again?! :O

No, I've been sick all week. I never drink when I'm sick. This is just a product of regular old stupidity, much like signing up for a mafia game.

[Visor]

Both you and gemma have been awol all of today. It is rather hard to for me to get a grasp on gemma normally unless I get some sort of calling from above.
Thisgame I would give her a gth villager read because I know a month ago for the game I hosted she was disappointed about being a villager and would have preferred a wolf rand.

I don't know if that is still the case but based on that knowledge and her lackluster performance I think she is more likely to flip villa. I don't think that is enough to just keep her around forever and not reassess her.

To the post itself. you are not wrong. she has made the same read on me last game on here, which is an odd choice.
the only read that feels like it is specifically from this game and not a dollar-store-meta-reads-bundle is gh. (every other read could be copy pasted from a random old game).

i feel like the game she randed villager in just recently she was much more involved in the thread (and i don't really mean in an activity sense)

i have like zero meta on her outside of that but she felt very competent that game even if i didn't agree with her reads

and i just don't get any real feeling of 'this is a deep thought about the game' from here posts so far

[Visor]

I don't like this based on gemma pr soft btw.

we killed a wolf d1 and I don't think we need to get rid of a pr soft/claim d2. we have enough time to give the slot a day and evaluate based on results.

I know that does not help you to live.

i don't really care about living at this point i think lol

i have accepted i am likely dying i just want to do it voting a wolf lol

and tbh i don't care about pr softs

claim it or die, and maybe die anyway, its not an open game

[Jan]

No, I've been sick all week. I never drink when I'm sick. This is just a product of regular old stupidity, much like signing up for a mafia game.

I do feel that.

I am afraid of several threadstates that makes it really hard to read the game.

How many wolves between murska/gemma (both pr softs/claims)?
How many deep wolves that are just having a very relaxed time pushing low hanging veterans today?
Or - are we just right on most things happening and I am getting paranoid?

[Visor]

?????? yo tell me someone can think someone is lean v and also just made nai posts at the same time like this

it's like they're trying to suggest jan has tmi but skipping all the steps needed to actually get to a real read of someone having tmi, like that person providing over the top reasoning... not like that person v reading someone you also v read on page 0

"this person wolfy because they have similar read to me" with no further elaboration is just wild

you might as well wolfread yourself while you're at it


the rest of these are nonreads imo like they don't feel like natural thoughts its tonally wolfy also this is what actually wolfy going through the motions or whatever it was you said cape was early day 1 looks like imo

also the pzelda read is something


this was pzelda's post:


pzelda wolfy because they said they're not in the mood for reading but played the game anyway is the most ungenerous take i think you could possibly make from that


taffys been v reading baudib all game



her baudib read is levels of wonky to me

its out of proportion to what baudib has actually done in a way that i think feels forced

for the amount of effort she's put into her baudib v read (not just in this post) it's wishy washy slash noncommittal, and immediately after trying to convince herself/others baudib is town she moves to considering baudib partners namely visor (also despite not w reading visor) - and shortly afterwards asks visor to sell her on w!baudib. separately these are things that are whatever but together with each other they feel incoherent and dissonant imo

i don't think it fits the bill of a villager with a real read that they're torn about

it looks even worse if baudib flips w (and i currently think he will)

the rest of her posts would just be quoting them saying wolfy tone

/39

now this is definitely not fair but look at this post comapred to anything gemmas posted this game imo

has gemma posted anything that sounds remotely like this sentence

"for the amount of effort she's put into her baudib v read (not just in this post) it's wishy washy slash noncommittal, and immediately after trying to convince herself/others baudib is town she moves to considering baudib partners namely visor (also despite not w reading visor) - and shortly afterwards asks visor to sell her on w!baudib. separately these are things that are whatever but together with each other they feel incoherent and dissonant imo"

i mean, just no, right? theres a flow to this sentence that the 90 random questions d1 just doesn't have and i get its d1 but theres more to the game thanthat

[Jan]

i feel like the game she randed villager in just recently she was much more involved in the thread (and i don't really mean in an activity sense)

i have like zero meta on her outside of that but she felt very competent that game even if i didn't agree with her reads

and i just don't get any real feeling of 'this is a deep thought about the game' from here posts so far

she is lackluster. I just know she prefers wolfing over being a villa which makes it really hard for me to read into that.
Without that knowledge in the back of my head I would agree with you.

[Visor]

that post of gemmas i know is a summary post but its also how her posts were in general where its very staccato one note read, no flow

[GeneralHankerchief]

I do feel that.

I am afraid of several threadstates that makes it really hard to read the game.

How many wolves between murska/gemma (both pr softs/claims)?
How many deep wolves that are just having a very relaxed time pushing low hanging veterans today?
Or - are we just right on most things happening and I am getting paranoid?

0-1. Almost never Murska especially since he's repping he can consecutively target. Wolves HAVE to get rid of that. If they don't, he's one of them. Period

Re deep wolf question I'm gonna say 1-2 outside the general poe because hell with it I'm buying visor being v right now

Really going to sleep now

[Visor]

i would love some thoughts on my vanta post fwiw, because i expect they will probably be miskilled on d4 if i am right and nobody gonna remember a post from someone they miskilled lol

[Jan]

i would love some thoughts on my vanta post fwiw, because i expect they will probably be miskilled on d4 if i am right and nobody gonna remember a post from someone they miskilled lol

I cannot confirm the meta stuff, but I have them village lean. lost villager. I lowkey love that you just went ahead and gave bennehs dog sorting gimmick from d1 to them. vanta only did the sort by avatar part.

[Vanta Black]

I'm just throwing this out here because it's proably good to get your thoughts in thread even if said thoughts are silly.

Bottom line, I did some back-reading and murska has dropped way down on my list. Not a lot of posts (even fewer than mine!), but I'm kinda confused about the PR claim. Maybe I'm just stupid but on the board where I usually play if someone claims protective PR and is not counterclaimed, that person usually eats the NK right away. Now maybe the wolves were more concerned about Zack. That is a possibility.

Not cc'd and I think he had 4 votes on him at the time so a legit time to claim. I kinda don't like to suss people for still being alive, but sometimes I just do.

But I was also pinged by murska's coming into the thread with "I considered zack but stayed on Rask" bit. Okay, on D1 he townread Zack and Rask pretty consistently, as did most of the thread. But then he mentions a couple more times that he's staying on Rask until he's dead, barring [something, I forget]. Hitting it really hard.

D1 he wanted to push a counterwagon to Syn for some reason.

His points on discussion about Ender today also kinda pinged me, I'm not sure why. I think because really not a lot of people were talking about Ender today.

[Vanta Black]

i think there is a chance vanta black is very possibly a villager, i have been thinking about this for a bit now, but having played with them before (i actually wolfed with them fairly recently in a game Raskolnikov had a great time in :curtain:) i remember their game as a wolf being... controlling isn't the word but they had words for every situation to move the thread in the direction they wanted and i feel like they have just flat out failed to do so here - i understand that this is a very new playerlist on a new site, new everything for them but i don't feel like they would suck so much as a wolf to resort to posting about avatar or dog names as a means of generating content or pushing the game forward. this may be my spiciest read tbh, but i get the feeling that they are moreso just overwhelmed with how to process this game and are trying to work around that, rather than failing to post genuine solving content because they are a wolf

ymmv

Hey, I wasn't the one who ranked players by the appropriateness of their username for a dog name!

[Vanta Black]

Stupid quetion, when I hit "reply" is there any way to have "go advanced" as the default here?

[Visor]

I cannot confirm the meta stuff, but I have them village lean. lost villager. I lowkey love that you just went ahead and gave bennehs dog sorting gimmick from d1 to them. vanta only did the sort by avatar part.

lmao i swear i saw them talking about it

i mustve conflated the dog sorting with the avatar sortin

[Vanta Black]

i would love some thoughts on my vanta post fwiw, because i expect they will probably be miskilled on d4 if i am right and nobody gonna remember a post from someone they miskilled lol

I have probably not made any posts worth going back and looking at tbh. Kinda feel like I'm still stuck in D1, perpetually.

[EnderWiggin]

Idk if Visor has me pocketed but I agree strongly with the Gemma take.

Like the soft is the only reason I pulled off her earlier.

Vote: Gemma

I may regret this later when I'm not super tired. (Gonna take a nap.) But reading Visor's stuff just makes me sure all over again about Gemma.

[Wisdom]

Gemma/Visor are two nice wagons imo.

I'm sad that I missed the party where it was fun to meme about GH being a wolf! I spent my morning reading that wall for nothing!

[Wisdom]

After reading everyone's posts with great detail I have confidently concluded that there are no wolves in this game

[Jan]

After reading everyone's posts with great detail I have confidently concluded that there are no wolves in this game

thank god. I was afraid this game might end up being tough.

[ladd]

Ill be here for eod

[Vanta Black]

Apparently my alignment depends on Logic's alignment so I would still kinda like to see his flip. But i see no traction there right now.

Not really sold on Gemma. Aside from Logic, I would really, truly like to vote GH, but that's not gonna go either.

Have town leans on everybody on Visor except Wisdom. Absolutely cannot say the same for voters on Gemma.

I had the briefest moment of thinking maybe I would get up at 6 am for EoD but, uh, get real, it's Saturday. Also I need to save my strength for shoveling snow off my driveway.

vote: Visor

[Arctic]

"GH he's obviously just pocketing you here don't be an idiot"

OH YEAH BECAUSE I HAVE SO MUCH TOWNCRED AND THREADPULL RIGHT NOW

i dunno why u keep posting stuff like this regardless of your alignment but i will tell you nobody finds it villagery so you don't need to bother

[Arctic]

Gemma: blatantly softs PR

Visor and GH:

26732

[Arctic]

0-1. Almost never Murska especially since he's repping he can consecutively target. Wolves HAVE to get rid of that. If they don't, he's one of them. Period

Re deep wolf question I'm gonna say 1-2 outside the general poe because hell with it I'm buying visor being v right now

Really going to sleep now

what about visor's recent posts convinced you he's town

[Raskolnikov]

Sorry for a lackluster day. Will be around for eod.

[Arctic]

Idk if Visor has me pocketed but I agree strongly with the Gemma take.

Like the soft is the only reason I pulled off her earlier.

Vote: Gemma

I may regret this later when I'm not super tired. (Gonna take a nap.) But reading Visor's stuff just makes me sure all over again about Gemma.


Gemma/Visor are two nice wagons imo.

I'm sad that I missed the party where it was fun to meme about GH being a wolf! I spent my morning reading that wall for nothing!

killing gemma today seems like a pretty terrible idea when they did nothing except soft PR and they aren't here to clarify

[Arctic]

i feel like townreading vanta is a pretty weird thing for visor to enter the thread with


theres two worlds of logic today imo, one where he is defending me to look good when i flip (but he still also has to actually solve the game as a wolf in this world and i don't believe logic is someone who would intentionally take on difficult tasks as a wolf (and theres always the fun argument when you get a contentious read right and then people accuse you of tmi lol))

and the one where he genuinely believes my actions are not coming from a wolf mindset and he is willing to put his neck out for it

for what its worth, the strength behind his conviction makes me heavily believe the latter, obviously i am incredibly biased and not able to judge this stuff fairly, but i have a harder time seeing a world where wolf logic doesn't just take the easy kill on me and i think his conviction is villagery (which is kinda funny considering my read on him d1, but i feel like this kind of conviction from him is just not something i associate with how he plays wolf).

i dunno why you think he can't be defending you to look good
you say because "he has to solve the game as a wolf in this world"
what does this mean?

i don't really have thoughts on anything else visor posted and i'm gonna vote him closer to eod cuz i don't really want anyone else except GH rn

but if we miss today i think gemma should probably clarify tomorrow since i have also felt bad about them the entire game

Visor i don't really expect you to have a full worldview since you've been pretty afk but if you feel strongly about anything then say it now
i agree with your read on vanta but admittedly for different reasons with some slight overlap

i'm surprised you don't have anything to say about logic or GH? those are the main points of contention other than you..

[Wisdom]

I have also concluded that that GH wall was TWTBAW which is something I never thought I would say about a GH post.

There's a special kind of hell for people who writes walls which neither helps me solve them nor others (although I still enjoyed reading it).

[Wisdom]

If Visor is a wolf here then pushing Gemma is really the best course of action.

If Gemma is wolf then Visor is confident that he will go over her anyway so it's great distancing. If Gemma is town it pretty much forces her to hard claim which mostly just benefits wolves.

[Visor]

i feel like townreading vanta is a pretty weird thing for visor to enter the thread with



i dunno why you think he can't be defending you to look good
you say because "he has to solve the game as a wolf in this world"
what does this mean?

i don't really have thoughts on anything else visor posted and i'm gonna vote him closer to eod cuz i don't really want anyone else except GH rn

but if we miss today i think gemma should probably clarify tomorrow since i have also felt bad about them the entire game

Visor i don't really expect you to have a full worldview since you've been pretty afk but if you feel strongly about anything then say it now
i agree with your read on vanta but admittedly for different reasons with some slight overlap

i'm surprised you don't have anything to say about logic or GH? those are the main points of contention other than you..

idk how you can say in this post that i don't have anything to say about logic in a post i am talking about logic lol

[EnderWiggin]

My current read of the game actually has Visor flipping town tbh. But the read is very centric around me actually having a solid idea of who the wolves actually are and idk if I believe it entirely yet.

[Wisdom]

My current read of the game actually has Visor flipping town tbh. But the read is very centric around me actually having a solid idea of who the wolves actually are and idk if I believe it entirely yet.

GTH what's the exact team in your opinion?

[Jan]

GTH what's the exact team in your opinion?

https://24.media.tumblr.com/96955c81a4392cd0497f5afced56e430/tumblr_mpzza0ZzvF1s7tq4zo1_400.gif

<3

[Arctic]

idk how you can say in this post that i don't have anything to say about logic in a post i am talking about logic lol

LOL nvm im dumb
but it still stands for Gh

[GeneralHankerchief]

i dunno why u keep posting stuff like this regardless of your alignment but i will tell you nobody finds it villagery so you don't need to bother

Oh yeah well now I'm going to post stuff like this even harder

(4 hours of sleep; pain)

[Visor]

LOL nvm im dumb
but it still stands for Gh

yeah i don't really have a lot to say on GH that is going to be useful

for the most part i actually find his posts decent -there is nothing particularly wolfy about them and i buy his long winded detailed thoughts about zack for the most part

ofc zack would be the easiest person he could write about this game

i don't find his actions around logic particularly surprising in any direction

perhaps the only true issue i could take with his posts are that i don't feel like he's found a calling of his own this game in terms of a narrative he thinks is true or a read he thinks is central to the game, which is maybe a sign that he's a wolf who is rusty but i also don't really get that feeling from his posts either, like his posts are fine enough when it comes down to it

gun to head i'd probably just call him a villager, but i'm also in the scenario where i know i am being pushed on by a bunch of people of who some have to be villagers, so when he feels like he's also in the outer ring with me and that something has to be wrong that people aren;t getting, it makes me biased towards making that read

i don't really like the idea of being wrong on gh lol, i wouldn't take my read with any weight, i just think its possible he got off on the wrong foot with people this game for various reasons

the alternative is obv he sees himself as next in line once i die and is trying to basically ally with me as a fight the poe brother in order to move the onus elsewhere esp because if im around i will always draw the attention

and if thats the case i am in a bad position to push that read ofc

but tentatively, no i think his posts are okay

i do think that logic/gh/me are all villagers at this point and that the poe is obviously wrong but i kinda also think this logic/gh/me ish angle is being pushed to the extent that it feels like a narrative being pushed

ymmv, perhaps i will have to die for people to consider elsewhere, but more than likely people will either kill those two afterwards because one MUST be a wolf, or they will blame the wrong people because they don't want to admit they've made poor decisions

[GeneralHankerchief]

Also "nobody" finds it villagery lmao

Genuinely a wolfy way of putting it

[Visor]

i really don't know why i am botherign to still post given there is no chance i do not die but w/e lol ask your questions while you got me

[GeneralHankerchief]

i really don't know why i am botherign to still post given there is no chance i do not die but w/e lol ask your questions while you got me

i dunno why u keep posting stuff like this regardless of your alignment but i will tell you nobody finds it villagery so you don't need to bother

[Visor]

gonna be real that i think one of (if not both!) of benneh/hally could be wolves here

just on a game state level

i guess if you take one thing away from today is that you should probably look into people locking down the read on me as if its a 'must kill'

i know ppl will just justify not listening and still wolfreading me but perhaps you will remember this post at some point

[Visor]

i dunno why u keep posting stuff like this regardless of your alignment but i will tell you nobody finds it villagery so you don't need to bother

i dunno why u keep posting stuff like this regardless of your alignment but i will tell you nobody finds it villagery so you don't need to bother

[Arctic]

yeah i don't really have a lot to say on GH that is going to be useful

for the most part i actually find his posts decent -there is nothing particularly wolfy about them and i buy his long winded detailed thoughts about zack for the most part

ofc zack would be the easiest person he could write about this game

i don't find his actions around logic particularly surprising in any direction

perhaps the only true issue i could take with his posts are that i don't feel like he's found a calling of his own this game in terms of a narrative he thinks is true or a read he thinks is central to the game, which is maybe a sign that he's a wolf who is rusty but i also don't really get that feeling from his posts either, like his posts are fine enough when it comes down to it

gun to head i'd probably just call him a villager, but i'm also in the scenario where i know i am being pushed on by a bunch of people of who some have to be villagers, so when he feels like he's also in the outer ring with me and that something has to be wrong that people aren;t getting, it makes me biased towards making that read

i don't really like the idea of being wrong on gh lol, i wouldn't take my read with any weight, i just think its possible he got off on the wrong foot with people this game for various reasons

the alternative is obv he sees himself as next in line once i die and is trying to basically ally with me as a fight the poe brother in order to move the onus elsewhere esp because if im around i will always draw the attention

and if thats the case i am in a bad position to push that read ofc

but tentatively, no i think his posts are okay

i do think that logic/gh/me are all villagers at this point and that the poe is obviously wrong but i kinda also think this logic/gh/me ish angle is being pushed to the extent that it feels like a narrative being pushed

ymmv, perhaps i will have to die for people to consider elsewhere, but more than likely people will either kill those two afterwards because one MUST be a wolf, or they will blame the wrong people because they don't want to admit they've made poor decisions

meh im kinda falling for this post a little
but then who's a wolf other than gemma if you're townreading the entire poe? i feel like you should have some more urgency about the state of the game if this is what you believe but it's hard to tell since you've been afk

[Jan]

gonna be real that i think one of (if not both!) of benneh/hally could be wolves here

just on a game state level

i guess if you take one thing away from today is that you should probably look into people locking down the read on me as if its a 'must kill'

i know ppl will just justify not listening and still wolfreading me but perhaps you will remember this post at some point

Yeah. When benneh openly asked people to hammer you early my read that was hollow in the first place kind of started to crumble.
I still have Rask Ladd wisdom ender as solid villas.

Dya should be villa too.

There is a real world where you were correct on murska and only die because of a pr claim and because you picked the wrong wolf D1.

But it is really hard to reconsider slots like that this early and you have not been an undisputed ray of sunshine either.

[Arctic]

gonna be real that i think one of (if not both!) of benneh/hally could be wolves here

just on a game state level

i guess if you take one thing away from today is that you should probably look into people locking down the read on me as if its a 'must kill'

i know ppl will just justify not listening and still wolfreading me but perhaps you will remember this post at some point

this is a hard sell for me cuz they've both seemed rlly villagery

why them specifically? is it cuz they're forcing the kill on you? why is that wolfy if you think the entire consensus poe is town and they could just.. kill anyone in it?

[GeneralHankerchief]

gonna be real that i think one of (if not both!) of benneh/hally could be wolves here

just on a game state level

i guess if you take one thing away from today is that you should probably look into people locking down the read on me as if its a 'must kill'

i know ppl will just justify not listening and still wolfreading me but perhaps you will remember this post at some point

I did have the thought about benneh last "night" while you were starting to cook and I started feeling better about you, one of his chief responses to my wall was pooh poohing the fact that I had him in my tinfoil town category and internally I was like "relax buddy, you're still well above my poe line"

At the time he said he thought he should have received more credit for helping construct the generally accepted town core and I was like ok fair, I didn't really focus on that part when I was going over your posts, that could be a valid point

But what if the town core just sucks?

Obviously Rask and ladd are good but I have 100% pulled that exact move as a wolf, demanding to be townread for putting together what would in retrospect be an absolutely terrible towncore/poe, so I'm kind of naturally on the lookout for that and am wondering if he stole my move

It's obviously something that can't be resolved right away but it is something to keep in mind

Also need to get ready for errands now so I'm probably done for an hour+, but should be back for eod

[Jan]

this is a hard sell for me cuz they've both seemed rlly villagery

why them specifically? is it cuz they're forcing the kill on you? why is that wolfy if you think the entire consensus poe is town and they could just.. kill anyone in it?
I rechecked bennehs D1 again and honestly most of why I thought he was villa was because Zack was obvious villa and benneh was the weirdo standing next to Zack for most of the day.
His D1 was not actually great.

[Visor]

meh im kinda falling for this post a little
but then who's a wolf other than gemma if you're townreading the entire poe? i feel like you should have some more urgency about the state of the game if this is what you believe but it's hard to tell since you've been afk

urgency based on what? my role in this game ends in 2 hours lol

i will be an ex villager, pining for the fjords

let me give you a rough rundown of where im at


Ladd
Raskolnikov

Vanta Black

GH
Logic

Dyachei
Jan

Murska

Arctic
Ender
Wisdom

Hally
Benneh

Gemma

i don't know if thats exactly it but its roughly where i feel

i've come around on jan a bit caus ehe kinda is feeling a little free (?) and reminds me a bit of lsat game where he didn't really do anything as a villa but just sorta sat there

ender weirdly enough though defending me is probably doing it in the wolfiest manner though im not sure i could articulate why lol

don't really know how to feel on dya atm, need to reread idk if i will get around to it

wisdom might be my other sneaky wolf candidate too, still don't think those posts d1 were great

[Visor]

this is a hard sell for me cuz they've both seemed rlly villagery

why them specifically? is it cuz they're forcing the kill on you? why is that wolfy if you think the entire consensus poe is town and they could just.. kill anyone in it?

part of it is the way they've done it (i think look to how hally talks to logic about me with the ridicule about considering me not a wolf)

its not about making the correct read its about locking the thread into a state of making a particular read if you get what im saying?

i don't really understand your argument - when i die they can STILL push logic/gh but the thread sentiment is as such towards in me in part because ladd has been pushing me so i don't see why it is a surprise as to why i am being locked in as this is the prime time to actually kill me

you basically get to kill me with clean hands with a ladd push lol

[Visor]

Yeah. When benneh openly asked people to hammer you early my read that was hollow in the first place kind of started to crumble.
I still have Rask Ladd wisdom ender as solid villas.

Dya should be villa too.

There is a real world where you were correct on murska and only die because of a pr claim and because you picked the wrong wolf D1.

But it is really hard to reconsider slots like that this early and you have not been an undisputed ray of sunshine either.

if i was right on murska hopefully it becomes clearer with more flips

for now i am just gonna leave it, its not my problem anymore

[Visor]

i would also maybe expect more indecisivity (is that word?) towards me from hally/benneh

[Jan]

i would also maybe expect more indecisivity (is that word?) towards me from hally/benneh

The thread felt a bit like a circle jerk earlier, but that is to be expected when the two main suspects at the time don't talk and the people in thread are basically an echo chamber of the same read(s).