Broken Crescent Hotseat: Commanders of the Faithful

[The Lemongate]

Danm that's harsh... rossahh was both one of the most entertaining player through all his RPing - Baldwin IV has been one of the most memorable and controversial figures of this game - and probably the best player of the lot. The survival and successess of Jerusalem are quite stunning considering he acted mostly alone and the Kingdom's only ally has had an agenda of conquering it since day 1 :laugh4:

Mind you, it won't happen now :skull:


Hope to face off with or against you in another game man!

[Quirl]

That is sad. No one deserves to have a fried computer. :thumbsdown:

It was also fun playing with you, rossah! I hope we meet again. :beam:

[Ramses II CP]

The Caliphate is up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/onmzdnkj2om/BC-41-04.zip

S'been a pleasure Rossah. Cairo has once more been occupied by a small force of Latin soldiers.

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

Cairo has once more been occupied by a small force of Latin soldiers.

Cairo: more governments than post-war Italy?

[Zim]

Is Cairo being sacked each time it changes hands? If so it's gotta be looking pretty bad around now.

[phonicsmonkey]

Seljuks (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d5c30105fd8107a6bda4076e811714c8bec59a502203d4c2b8eada0a1ae8665a)

[Quirl]

Cairo: more governments than post-war Italy?

lol. Indeed. :beam:

I had to abandon Cairo. The only reason I attacked it was to kill his armies and two generals there. :tongue2:

[barcamartin]

http://rapidshare.com/files/254169259/BC-41-06.zip.html

Gahzims up!!

[Ramses II CP]

Cairo was actually occupied and not sacked. I think the population is still around 4-5k.

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Yeah. The problem with Cairo, though, is that I destroyed all the buildings there; so not much money can be made from it anymore. Couldn't let rossah have such a lucrative settlement in his possession, after all. :clown:

Avidan (Dongola) is now my powerhouse. It's a huge city and will probably remain my capital even if I permanently retook Cairo. :2thumbsup:

[rossahh]

Thanks for the kind words guys. It's been a lot of fun.

[Zim]

Rajputs are up. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=199&id=4914

Bad news, Rossahh. I remember being amazed at many of the moves you made in this game...

[The Lemongate]

...


Why am I not surprised when I wake up in a hospital... I should learn restraint >_<



Edit: And I should add - not surprised to post out on these boards first thing in the morning... Man, too many thing with a sweet, sweet finale >_<

[Ramses II CP]

Ayyubids are up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/t0zzzzgdhz1/BC-41-08.zip

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

Hi everyone, just so you know I'll be jetting off for almost a month's holiday from Friday this week (17th July), returning on 11th August. I'm going to Damascus for a week first up, then to the UK for my sister's wedding.

I will likely have internet access while in the UK, so I may still post here, but I won't be able to play my turns or do any GM-admin stuff.

Ramses is going to stand in as GM while I'm gone (thanks Ramses!), so expect some PMs from him if you're close to your turn deadline.

barcamartin is going to sub my Caliphate turns for me (thanks barca!)

If we can get to my next turn before Friday that'd be just fantastic..:2thumbsup:

[Quirl]

If we can get to my next turn before Friday that'd be just fantastic..:2thumbsup:

Hopefully we will, then! Have fun on your travels! :2thumbsup:

I'll update in the courtroom, but I'm not in a place I can upload the file yet. Still, it should be up either by tonight or tomorrow.

[Quirl]

Oman's up! :smash:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a79e58f19b5fb42d4c17ca8801618ef732fd04fbf453b0245be6ba49b5870170

[Quirl]

Uh... navarro?

[phonicsmonkey]

Did you pm him quirl? I'll be skipping this turn when I get home tonight, unless he has posted here by then.

[Quirl]

Yeah. I PM'd him. He even responded back.

I'd be happy to do his turn if you would like. That is, unless you'd prefer Lemon to do it. He's just not online right now is all. :P

[phonicsmonkey]

ok, go ahead - usually I don't like un-appointed subs who are neighbours and not allies, but I trust you to act in his interests and not your own, just use your conscience. Make sure you pm him to let him know what you did for him.

[Quirl]

Poo

[Quirl]

When life gives you Lemons...

... eh, I got nothing. Rome's up! :2thumbsup:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zymkq3nymjw

[The Lemongate]

Georgia (http://rapidshare.com/files/256307263/BC-42-02.rar.html)

[TheFlax]

KoJ (http://rapidshare.com/files/256644282/BC-42-03.zip.html)

I have no clue who to PM.

[Quirl]

KoJ (http://rapidshare.com/files/256644282/BC-42-03.zip.html)

I have no clue who to PM.

lol. Ramses, I think...

[Ramses II CP]

DL'ing it now, but it may be tomorrow before I can get it done. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

I got caught up in KotF startup business today, but this will be done sometime in the next 12-14 hours.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

The Caliphate is up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/im2ze3tuicm/BC-42-04.zip

Bilbeis, Cairo, and Aqaba were retaken, of course, and with the destruction of those numbingly expensive cavalry the financial situation in the KoJ has finally returned to the black! I do hope a player shows up for the KoJ soon, I'm being forced to make some choices that could cripple the nation if I guess wrong.

Who is subbing for PM? I think he left today, right?

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

That'd be me. I should be able to have his and my turn done within a few hours.

[barcamartin]

Geez, that was a long turn (s). The heat is on. :)

Zim, Ghazni up!!

http://rapidshare.com/files/257335956/BC-42-06.zip.html

[Zim]

Rajputs are up.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=199&id=4918

[Ramses II CP]

Ayyubids are up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/qoujjxjzmmw/BC-42-08.zip

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Oman's up!

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ejg2jgyzfji

I've PM'd Lemon, too. I'm assuming he'll be subbing for them again. If not, I'd be happy to sub for them once more, also (we are allies, after all).

[The Lemongate]

Sorry guys but I won't be able to play this turn before friday at the earliest. You can skip it if you want to keep things moving.

[Quirl]

Well, since we are allies and I subbed for them last turn. Why don't I just sub for them again? From what I've seen last I subbed for them, they are still viable.

[Zim]

So....everyone still here?

[Quirl]

So....everyone still here?

Yeah... Anytime soon Lemon? :beam:

[barcamartin]

I vote Quirl to sub him. Seems perfectly reasonable since our GM, substitute GM and "1st Oman subber" have been awefully silent as of late. To keep the pace up, you know.

[Quirl]

Well, I would have pushed the issue more with Oman; but the next faction up is the Eastern Roman Empire (Lemon again), so, unless I sub for Rome also (or someone else does), we would still have to wait. :confused:

Any suggestions?

[Ramses II CP]

Okay, sorry, I've been a bit busy, but I'm on this now. If the guy has been pm'd and given this much time he's going to be skipped 24 hours from now. If Quirl wants to sub, he's welcome.

I would sub it myself but I'm on the other side of a war with Oman and have a bit too much information about their opponent. :laugh4:

edit: And if Lemon can't play the ERE turn I will sub it. I don't think I've subbed for any of his opponents in the last 3-4 turns at least.

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Ok, I'll have Oman up in a few hours. I'll PM you and Lemon when it's time for the ERE to start. :smiley:

[Quirl]

Oman's up!

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zohyqmhjdrz

[The Lemongate]

I'll find time tomorrow to play my turn! Promise! I've just been crazy busy this past week. Sorry for that.

[Quirl]

I'll find time tomorrow to play my turn! Promise! I've just been crazy busy this past week. Sorry for that.

Np, I know how that is. Summer classes just ended for me. :inquisitive:

[The Lemongate]

Georgian Exiles (http://rapidshare.com/files/260811109/BC-43-02.rar.html)

[Zim]

The Hindu Navy and Ghaznavid navy in Omani waters has also been destroyed.

I didn't even remember having a navy in Omani waters. :clown:

[Quirl]

The Hindu Navy and Ghaznavid navy in Omani waters has also been destroyed.

I didn't even remember having a navy in Omani waters. :clown:

lol. Yeah. 'Twas parked right next to the Rajput boat. It had a spy and some unit aboard. A major blow! :clown:

I wasn't even aware you guys were at war 'til I subbed for them. When did that happen? No one updates anyone anymore in the courtroom. :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

I announced my attack in court! Revenge for the Omanis siding with the Ghorids. :yes:

I messed up with that fleet. I meant to hit the Omani ship while it was in port and I had the Ghazni next door to help, but took the city first which caused the fleet to get kicked out of the port away from my ship, out of range. Despite that my fleet couldn't move any more because it had moved in next to the enemy ship while it was at port, thus my attack couldn't progress.

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

By the way, how does one attack boats in ports? All I ever manage is to blockade the port and get into hostile zone of control...

[Ramses II CP]

You have to select your ships in the 'unit selection' box, the rectangle where they show up as little squares, and then click to attack like normal. I've posted it a few times since the game started, it's a handy trick to have. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

Ah, ok. I'll remember it this time. I knew you had posted it several times, but couldn't find the posts and wanted to know. :)

[TheFlax]

KoJ (http://rapidshare.com/files/261534131/BC-43-03.zip.html)

[Zim]

I'm not the GM in this game, but I don't think you're supposed to be able to attack a ship docked in port...

[Ramses II CP]

Err, why not? The AI can. I assumed it was a bug that prevented it for players.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

So here's the position that we're in with the KoJ. I've subbed for them three turns in a row, trying to be conservative, build up some money, and let the player who steps in have a chance. As matters stand right now I am certain I can recapture Kerak at least, and if it goes well Gaza also... but they'll be long, annoying battles where I have to isolate and eliminate companies of spearmen in street fighting.

To be perfectly honest I don't want to spend that time right now for a faction that isn't my own and isn't likely to find a player, but if I don't the faction is crippled. My preference and recommendation is that we set them to AI.

I'm only the temp GM though, so I'd like to hear from the other players:

1. Do you think we'll be able to get a replacement for Rossah?

2. Will it destabilize the game to let the KoJ collapse, as they certainly will if turned over to the AI?

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Well, me being at war with them, take my opinion as you will. But I can't see the KOJ winning anymore and I don't think a replacement KOJ player will have a lot of fun playing with them. Those two things as they are, I don't think it would be unfair to set them to AI. As for destabalizing the game, in my opinion, the Seljuks have already won this game. Just sayin'. Not much to destabalize at this point. :clown:

But those are just my opinions.

[Zim]

I've never had an ai faction attack a ship of mine in port, even if they were badly damaged and vulnerable. When enemy factions have a much stronger navy than I do, I hop my fleet from port to port when I need to transport troops...

Back in RTW you could also get out of the slowed movement rate for ships with troops on them by clicking the unit cards.

At any rate this isn't my game so it doesn't matter much what my opinion is. :clown:


Err, why not? The AI can. I assumed it was a bug that prevented it for players.

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

I am in a good position of winning, yes. I haven't won yet though, still a slog to get there (if I ever do..).

Anyway, an AI or Human KoJ won't effect me too much. The ones effected are mainly phonics and Quirl I guess. Obviously, an AI KoJ would be overrun sooner rather than later, but it's understandable that Ramses doesn't want to lay all that time on a faction he is only subbing. So I say turn them AI, unless a replacement can be found this turn (which doesn't seem realistic).

[The Lemongate]

Whatever barca thinks, the Seljuks have already won the game.

An AI KoJ won't make much of a difference as they didn't seem intent or capable of fighting the Abbasid/Seljuk menace which is the only powerhouse capable of finishing this game off in short order.

[Ramses II CP]

I think we have a consensus. I'll research the commands and turn the KoJ to AI tomorrow.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

The KoJ is AI and the Caliphate is up!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jmti21qmizm/BC-43-04.zip

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

Will get to this Sunday. Remember that I have two turns to do, so it takes alot of time. I'll have it done on Sunday anyhow, so a little off the time limit for one turn, but less than the time limit for two turns. ;)

[barcamartin]

Hmm, make that Monday. Sorry.

[barcamartin]

Completing my tri-post streak, here's the save for Ghazni!! Go Zim, go!

http://rapidshare.com/files/263233356/BC-43-06.zip.html

[barcamartin]

OMG, quad-post! Unbelievable! Anyway, I subbed Zim too. Apparently KotF was claiming alot of his time. Ramses, hit it!

http://rapidshare.com/files/263798152/BC-43-07.zip.html

[Quirl]

OMG, quad-post!

Ha! Man, you own this thread.
:wink2:

[barcamartin]

Yeah, seems like it. Haha. :)

[Ramses II CP]

The Ayyubids are up!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jggmydmimcj/BC-43-08.zip

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Oman's up!

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ejgyocdk5jk

I have attacked the Omanis. This obviously presents a problem as I cannot sub for them anymore. Sorry. :no:

[Ramses II CP]

Darn it. Is there any prospect of Navarro turning up to play this? PM is going to come back to find that I let the bloody game fall apart.

If necessary I may declare peace between the Rajputs and Oman just so I can sub. :thumbsdown:

:egypt:

[Quirl]

I'm sorry. Have you tried Lemon? I don't know where Navajaro went...

P.S.
And since when did this site get loud audio advertisements? :brood:

[Ramses II CP]

I'm sorry. Have you tried Lemon? I don't know where Navajaro went...

P.S.
And since when did this site get loud audio advertisements? :brood:

I got those ads too. Seems that they make the cycle every few weeks. Those ad blocker things take care of them in Firefox, but I'm lazy and use IE half the time.

I can PM Lemon later today and check.

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

hey guys, I'm back! thanks Ramses for keeping the game going, and barca for subbing! Seems like you both did a great job!

Looks like we're stuck on Oman - if no-one objects I'll switch the faction to AI later today and post a new save for Lemon. Seems like they are now at war with mostly everyone anyway, so no use subbing or trying to find a new human player..

[barcamartin]

Welcome back mate! Glad to have you. I guess Oman as AI would be the best for the game, speed wise anyway.

[phonicsmonkey]

ok, Rome (http://www.mediafire.com/?fzmunezhjyn) is up, go Lemon!

[The Lemongate]

Georgia (http://rapidshare.com/files/266030343/BC-44-02.sav.html)

[phonicsmonkey]

Flax' inbox is full so I haven't been able to pm him to remind him the deadline is nearly up.

The good news for him is that I won't be able to play my turn (which is next) for at least 24 hours and maybe more - Little Monkey is sick, and my turn is also up in the SS game - so he can have an extension until I get around to mine.

If I don't see his turn by the time I get round to playing mine, I'll skip him.

That is, unless someone knows he is away and wants to sub for him?

[TheFlax]

Ooops... :embarassed:

Caliph (http://rapidshare.com/files/266812365/BC-44-04.zip.html)

[phonicsmonkey]

Seljuks! (http://www.mediafire.com/?zm1vj5i1mmh)

[Quirl]

Little Monkey is sick, and my turn is also up in the SS game - so he can have an extension until I get around to mine.

Hope you get to feeling better soon. Hope it's not Swine Flue! :tongue2:

[phonicsmonkey]

Hope you get to feeling better soon. Hope it's not Swine Flue! :tongue2:

I think I had pig flu already last month :thumbsdown:- this time it's my baby boy who's not well, and we're pretty sure it's just a normal cold/flu virus and not H1N1 - thanks for the concern!

I will post some photos of my trip to Damascus for you guys over the weekend. I got a good one of the Saladin monument, and some great ones of the Ummayad mosque.

[barcamartin]

Ghazni !

http://rapidshare.com/files/267244850/BC-44-06.zip.html

[Quirl]

I will post some photos of my trip to Damascus for you guys over the weekend. I got a good one of the Saladin monument, and some great ones of the Ummayad mosque.

Sweet. Tell us when! :beam:

[Zim]

Downloading the save now.

[Zim]

Slight issue. Because my internet connection is so slow, it keeps timing out before I can download from rapidshare. I don't have this problem downloading from the org uploader or anywhere else, though...

[Ramses II CP]

Uploading it to mediafire now. Will post soon.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

Try Mediafire Z:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ewhcxjzjono/BC-44-06.zip

Let me know if it's still trouble, I can try other methods. :yes:

:egypt:

[Zim]

Rajputs are up.

http://www.montenegro.com/images/stories/id.137_01.dscn1532.jpg

[barcamartin]

Oh, sorry about the inconvinience Zim. I won't use Rapidshare with future turns! :)

[Ramses II CP]

Rajputs are up.

http://www.montenegro.com/images/stories/id.137_01.dscn1532.jpg

Link paste fail! That's a picture mate. :laugh4:

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Montenegro! The Rajputs are in Eastern Europe?! :shocked:

[Zim]

Just part of their insidious plot to conquer Europe and then descend on the BC factions from east and west. I'll likely be killed for revealing it.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=199&id=4941

[Quirl]

Just part of their insidious plot to conquer Europe and then descend on the BC factions from east and west. I'll likely be killed for revealing it.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=199&id=4941

Ha!

And we can't fight the Hindus! Their religion gives them automatic respawn! :surprised:

[Ramses II CP]

Oh no need for secrecy anymore, we went the long way 'round through China, the Americas, and western Europe to get to Montenegro. We already own the world, we're just letting you lot squabble it out so our native levies aren't wasted.

The Ayyubids are up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/xzzk2mzcfmz/BC-44-08.zip

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Hey you guys. I'm encountering a pretty big error here. When I end my turn and the thing tries to go to Rome, the game crashes. Any ideas? I've tried reloading to different points in the game and the same things occurs. Phonics, would you like me to send you the save game file?

[phonicsmonkey]

uh-oh, I'm getting a CTD too

let me go back and try hitting end turn from each of the last player turns to see if we can avoid it somehow...

unless anyone else has some suggestions?


Hey you guys. I'm encountering a pretty big error here. When I end my turn and the thing tries to go to Rome, the game crashes. Any ideas? I've tried reloading to different points in the game and the same things occurs. Phonics, would you like me to send you the save game file?

[Quirl]

No suggestions here. Let's hope that works... :sweatdrop:

[Zim]

Nothing here. I know BC had occasional crashes, but not how to stop one. :sweatdrop:

[Ramses II CP]

I accepted an adoption during my turn, and it worked, that's the only thing I can think might be different from my last turn. I know we had some odd issues with adoptions previously, could be related? I can easily replay my turn and reject the adoption, I used some spies and assassins but there was no combat.

Did Jerusalem change hands? I believe there's a scripted event which takes place when Jerusalem becomes Muslim.

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

Ok guys, I have discovered something.

I loaded save game 44-01 (the last save game I posted for Lemon after turning the Omanis into robots) and skipped through each faction's turn to the beginning of turn 45 with no crash.

Then I loaded save games 44-02, 44-03 and so on and did the same thing until I got a crash in the end turn cycle using save game 44-06.

This suggests to me that either save game 44-06 (the save barca uploaded for Zim) got corrupted somehow in the upload, or maybe barca did something in his turn that caused a CTD.

I'm afraid I don't know what actions might cause CTDs in BC as I haven't had any before.

So, I suggest firstly can barca re-upload the save and post a link for me to test?

If that works then Zim, Ramses and Quirl will have to replay, but at least the game will be saved from a premature end.

If it doesn't, then barca should replay the turn and re-upload it for me to test.

Sound ok?

[Ramses II CP]

Works for me. The capture of Constantinople might also cause a scripted event? Or something to do with the Kypchaks going horde?

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

Ok, here's the turn re-uploaded. I hope that works, since I would hate to be forced to play the turn again. So much that could go wrong, and all the time it took me. *cries a wee bit*

Since I didn't take Constantinople, Jerusalem was Christian last time I checked and I didn't touch the Kyppies in any way, I guess it's something that is/was corrupt with the uploaded file.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d9152a124f45d7b79bf8d6369220dcab1b7762af5a4273f45be6ba49b5870170

[phonicsmonkey]

yeah Ramses, I thought about that, but the crash was happening on the rebel turn..so I ported to control the rebels but couldn't see anything wrong

that's when I started my process of elimination..

Ok, while we wait for me to test this save, here's a few photos from my trip to Damascus:

The Western Gate of the Temple of Jupiter, built by the Romans on the site of an Aramaic temple of Hadar. The Temple was replaced by an Orthodox Basilica, and then the Ummayad Mosque. The Eastern and Western gates remain relatively intact, but have been pressed into service - The Western Gate forms the entrance of Souq al-Hammadiyah, the medieval covered market.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5192.jpg

A close-up of the Salah Al-Din monument. I saw his tomb too, and that of his uncle Nur Al-Din, but we weren't allowed to take pictures.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5222.jpg

The Citadel of Damascus, originally built by the Seljuks before being improved on by the Ayyubids and later the Ottomans.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5215.jpg

The Ummayad Mosque, third holiest site in Islam (after Mecca and Medina). Built on the site of the Roman Temple of Jupiter. Legend has it that for centuries the site housed both the Basilica and the Mosque and the Christians and Muslims would worship side by side. Then one of the Caliphs (I forget which) spent a fortune consecrating several churches around the city in order to persuade the Christians to move out peacefully, which is apparently what happened.

This is what my Caliph wanted to reclaim when he launched the first Great Jihad.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5322.jpg

[Ramses II CP]

yeah Ramses, I thought about that, but the crash was happening on the rebel turn..so I ported to control the rebels but couldn't see anything wrong

that's when I started my process of elimination..

Ok, while we wait for me to test this save, here's a few photos from my trip to Damascus:

The Western Gate of the Temple of Jupiter, built by the Romans on the site of an Aramaic temple of Hadar. The Temple was replaced by an Orthodox Basilica, and then the Ummayad Mosque. The Eastern and Western gates remain relatively intact, but have been pressed into service - The Western Gate forms the entrance of Souq al-Hammadiyah, the medieval covered market.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5192.jpg

A close-up of the Salah Al-Din monument. I saw his tomb too, and that of his uncle Nur Al-Din, but we weren't allowed to take pictures.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5222.jpg

The Citadel of Damascus, originally built by the Seljuks before being improved on by the Ayyubids and later the Ottomans.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5215.jpg

The Ummayad Mosque, third holiest site in Islam (after Mecca and Medina). Built on the site of the Roman Temple of Jupiter. Legend has it that for centuries the site housed both the Basilica and the Mosque and the Christians and Muslims would worship side by side. Then one of the Caliphs (I forget which) spent a fortune consecrating several churches around the city in order to persuade the Christians to move out peacefully, which is apparently what happened.

This is what my Caliph wanted to reclaim when he launched the first Great Jihad.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5322.jpg

Envy! Looks like a very cool trip man.

:egypt:

[barcamartin]

Cool, man! Would be awesome to go down there some time.

[Quirl]

Wow. Pretty cool pics!

Anyways, I can replay my last turn. I did conquer Jerusalem, but even when I simply ended my turn for testing purposes the game crashed. I hope the game doesn't crash again when I retake Jerusalem. :no:

P.S.

Who the heck is that guy on top the Temple of Jupiter? Is it a dummy? If so, how the heck did he get up there?! XD

[Ramses II CP]

Wow. Pretty cool pics!

Anyways, I can replay my last turn. I did conquer Jerusalem, but even when I simply ended my turn for testing purposes the game crashed. I hope the game doesn't crash again when I retake Jerusalem. :no:

P.S.

Who the heck is that guy on top the Temple of Jupiter? Is it a dummy? If so, how the heck did he get up there?! XD

Isn't that a watchman's post he's standing on with a lantern above?

I don't know for sure that the scripted Jerusalem event would cause any trouble, it's just one of those suspect possibilities.

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

Who the heck is that guy on top the Temple of Jupiter? Is it a dummy? If so, how the heck did he get up there?! XD

Yeah, he's a dummy - he's part of the decor for the shop that's been built next to the surviving ruins.

The whole Western Gate has been built into the Souq. This photo shows it better. To the right is the entrance to the Ummayad Mosque, to the left Souq al-Hammadiyah.

https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/phonicsmonkeytw/IMG_5187.jpg

[phonicsmonkey]

Ok, here's the turn re-uploaded. I hope that works, since I would hate to be forced to play the turn again. So much that could go wrong, and all the time it took me. *cries a wee bit*

Since I didn't take Constantinople, Jerusalem was Christian last time I checked and I didn't touch the Kyppies in any way, I guess it's something that is/was corrupt with the uploaded file.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d9152a124f45d7b79bf8d6369220dcab1b7762af5a4273f45be6ba49b5870170

Sorry barca I got the crash with this file too.

So, let's work through this logically.

I downloaded Zim's save and got it to work without a crash, so that file is ok.

Your file is corrupt and crashes, even after uploading it twice.

So I'm guessing either Zim's file must have gotten corrupted when you downloaded it, OR you did something on your turn which causes the crash.

What I suggest is this - download Zim's save again, load it up in BC, save the game and post me a link to test. That way we can be sure that the file you are working on is ok to begin with.

Then you'll need to replay your turn, and keep an eye out for anything that might cause a scripted event, or something to happen in the rebel turn. You might need to change those actions, if any.

Quirl, I don't think your taking Jerusalem had any effect this time, as the crash is embedded already in barca's save, before you took the city.

[The Lemongate]

Seriously, check it from my turn and the turn right before that. I got a feeling it might come from me having way too many mods and overlapping some stuff.

uh... Komnenoi sabotage ninja crew FTL...

[phonicsmonkey]

Seriously, check it from my turn and the turn right before that.

yep, I did that - all clear

[The Lemongate]

Good then. I guess.

[Quirl]

Jesus is not happy with our Jihad and has used his divine powers against this game. :angel::shocked3::angel:

[phonicsmonkey]

Jesus is not happy with our Jihad and has used his divine powers against this game. :angel::shocked3::angel:

Not the only crossover between in-game and RL - while in Damascus I picked up a nasty bug that I haven't yet recovered from....a plague you might say

[barcamartin]

Damn. Well, I should get it done today.

Hmmm... Zim's file is OK? Well, since Zim is after me in the turn order maybe it got corrupted during his turn? The only file I've downloaded is your's, phonics. I'm a bit confused here. Unless you made a typo / error of thought and mean something else, or perhaps I'm slow-minded, I see little point in me working with Zim's file, since Zim's file is after my turn. :S

[phonicsmonkey]

Damn. Well, I should get it done today.

Hmmm... Zim's file is OK? Well, since Zim is after me in the turn order maybe it got corrupted during his turn? The only file I've downloaded is your's, phonics. I'm a bit confused here. Unless you made a typo / error of thought and mean something else, or perhaps I'm slow-minded, I see little point in me working with Zim's file, since Zim's file is after my turn. :S

Sorry barca, I was tired and sick this morning and was talking utter nonsense in my post.

I dl'd MY save from mediafire (44-05) and tested it - everything ok

But your save (44-06), and every save after it (44-07 and 44-08), cause the crash.

So, you need to re-download MY save (44-05), load the game, then save the game immediately and send it back to me for checking.

If it's ok, then you and everybody after you need to replay your turns to fix the game.

Sorry for the confusion..

[barcamartin]

Ok, that clears it up. :)

I will have it done within the next few hours, I think.

[barcamartin]

Ok, delayed. It will have to wait until tonight.

[barcamartin]

I have done quite a bit of the turn, off to training now. The most sensitive and time consuming parts remain though, so before I do them it would be good if you make sure that this actually works.

The only things I could think of to do differently, was to turn down the offer of adoption (which "arrived at a funeral procession" anyway) and the offer of a Hashashim Guild. So please monkey, test this one before I am back to do the rest. ;)

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d9152a124f45d7b79bf8d6369220dcab1b7762af5a4273f45be6ba49b5870170

[barcamartin]

Ok, hopefully this works. The only noticeable differences compared to the last turn are those mentioned in the above post. I guess you are testing it before Zim plays his turn, phonics, so I won't bother PMing him. ;)

Ghazni turn 44, v2:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mtjmjzmizwn

[phonicsmonkey]

I tested turn 44-06-2nd and it works fine - we're back!

Zim, you can go ahead and play

[barcamartin]

Yes! I guess it was the failed adoption of a 'Perfect Chivalrous General' that messed it up then. :)

[barcamartin]

Ghazni subbed! Ramses, hit it!

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mfjyztkukfn

[Ramses II CP]

Ayyubids are up!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/hzodjygmbyx/BC-44-08.zip

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Rome's up!

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mnnnmw1nmzm

[phonicsmonkey]

Rome's up!
Phew..

[Quirl]

Phew..

lol. I know, right? I kept thinking that after my turn... :beam:

[phonicsmonkey]

I've played too much EB not to get a sick feeling in my stomach when I see the words 'crash to desktop'...

[Quirl]

Old file got corrupted. New file online:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ebejgyduq0z

[The Lemongate]

Done: Georgia (http://rapidshare.com/files/270066431/BC-45-02.sav.html)

[TheFlax]

Caliph (http://rapidshare.com/files/270440154/BC-45-04.zip.html)

I hope that's not to late phonics...

[phonicsmonkey]

Seljuks (http://www.mediafire.com/?mtyaynmmt1z)

thanks Flax!

[barcamartin]

Ok, Ghazni up!

It's bloody annoying that ships can be attacked in ports, and that Lemon is before me in the turn order. ;)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zmz1nmirdma

[The Lemongate]

Dunno. I could stop. I think it's kind of an exploit. I didn't even know it was possible before Ramses talked about it...

War would be over by now though if I didn't chase your boats away.

[Ramses II CP]

I'd swear I've had the AI attack my ships at port before, but the AI is so flakey it's hard to reproduce on demand. Is there a reason why it shouldn't be able to do so? You can attack out of ports even if they're blockaded with no penalty.

I am always willing to GA in a rule if the players don't like a particular game behavior.

:egypt:

[The Lemongate]

I don't mind it much though since at this time it's keeping me alive :sweatdrop:

[barcamartin]

To be honest, I'm fine with it. It's just bloody annoying. ;)

I have never had the AI do it, not that I can remember anyway, and I didn't know of it either until Ramses told us. Since everyone knows of it though, and everyone seems fine with it so far, I'm fine with it too. Makes my job a hell lot harder. :smash:

The worst part is that they have no movement points after you have hit them, rendering them completely useless. Damn turn order. :P

Good thing both access points to Constantinople couldn't be navy-blocked though! :skull:

[Quirl]

I so prefer how navies works in Empire. :beam:

P.S.
So Constantinople is captured and "purged." What exactly does that mean, Barca? Did you destroy the buildings and exterminate the populace? :drama3:

[barcamartin]

I thought the less than subtle "Resistance is futile" (in-game phrase since Rome:TW when a settlement has been exterminated) was pretty clear. ;)

8 000 of ~12 000 Roman citizens slaughtered, but all buildings except wall, roads, farms and strangely enough market were auto-destroyed when I took the city. Crashed the market though, just to finish the job. :P

[Quirl]

lol. I wouldn't know. I hardly ever exterminate provinces (and don't think I have this entire game!).

That's funny. Now your Constantinople is like my Cairo. :no: I think Baghdad is the only huge city that is still doing well in this game... unless some other city upgraded at some point, like Merv.

[phonicsmonkey]

Baghdad still has 14k happy inhabitants surviving after the latest wave of plague, down from 26k at its peak.

Here's the Turn 45 update:


- The Levantine plague runs rife in Roman-held Anatolia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2279727#post2279727), crippling the Roman economy and casting its sickly pall over the young Emperor Artemios.

- The Caliph publicly acknowledges (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2281056#post2281056)the invasion of Oman.

- The Georgians are forced into exile (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2281343#post2281343)by the invading Seljuks, who seize their homelands and push on into Anatolia to face the Romans.

- After an abortive attempt (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2281749#post2281749)to secure a peaceful exchange of territories with the Seljuks and Avadids, the Roman delegation leaves the Caliph's Court (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2281832#post2281832), never to return.

- The Caliph declares a Second Great Jihad (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2286573#post2286573) against the Romans, joining the Seljuks in their invasion of Anatolia.

- The Avadids welcome the Caliph's jihad, ally with the Seljuks, and recapture Bilbeis and Qahira (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2286688#post2286688) from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

- The Rajputs join the invasion of Oman, capturing Muscat and Sur (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2293131#post2293131).

- The Avadids recapture Gaza (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2293398#post2293398)from the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

- The Second Great Jihad progresses well (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2294939#post2294939), with Antioch falling to the Caliphate and the Seljuks making dramatic gains in Anatolia.

- The Omanis fight back against the invaders (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2298781#post2298781), capturing Kerak from the Kingdom of Jerusalem, retaking Muscat from the Rajputs, and sinking the Rajput and Ghaznavid navies.

- The Avadids turn on their erstwhile allies the Omanis (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2307093#post2307093), capturing Kerak, while retaking Qahira, Damyut, and Bilbeis from the KoJ.

- The Caliphate seizes Suhar from the Omanis and Hama from the KoJ (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2314246#post2314246), while the Seljuks continue their push into Anatolia (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2314628#post2314628), taking Smyrna, Nicaea, Nicomedia, Sinope and Laodicea.

- Jerusalem falls to the Avadids (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2318854#post2318854), who formally commit their nation to the New Caliphate of Seljuks and Abbasids.

[The Lemongate]

I commit my nation to thank you, come again.

The Lemongate out.

[phonicsmonkey]

Lemon, with Constantinople having fallen are you going to fight on?

[phonicsmonkey]

Excuse me all for the triple post, but in my view this game is over, with barcamartin the clear winner.

Anybody disagree?

To my mind, the defining points of this game were:

- The early knockout of ATPG's Turks by The Lemongate and rossahh
- barcamartin's expert use of agents
- rossahh's use of the plague as a weapon against the Caliphate
- The Lemongate's stunning fightback to end the first jihad
- Quirl al-Mustafa Mubarak's dogged resistance against the Crusaders
- The Caliphate's use of the plague as a weapon against the Romans

Let me know your highlights!

[The Lemongate]

gratz barca - well fought, the Seljuks have dominated the entire game from the start and earned their victory


As for my recap:

The early RP between Tristan/rossahh/ATPG and me on the Armenian/Turk/Roman/Latin war. That was interesting both IC and in the game strategically with the secret funds sent by BanzaiKamikaze to the Empire while he was officially neutral and TheFlax's sidding with the Turks after a while and the Caliph's twisted money scam.

That was the most fun I've had in a Total War game in a long, long while. It's a shame I missed the end of that chapter.

The death of the Indestructible sultan was quite a bit of fun too just because... you know... Indestructible :laugh4:

Must say I was rather annoyed by the whole Jihad and plague thing. Boring slugfest with no diplomacy, no trickery whatsoever against a baffling unbreakable alliance. An unbreakable muslim alliance in a BC game is like an unbreakable catholic alliance in a vanilla game: the opposition stands no chance and when you're on the other side of one well, the game loses much interest.

Anyways, it does for me. I like the treacherous backstabbing, plotting, backdoor dealings, etc. The whole thing seems more to me like a very hard SP game otherwise.

[phonicsmonkey]

An unbreakable muslim alliance in a BC game is like an unbreakable catholic alliance in a vanilla game: the opposition stands no chance.

I can well understand why you saw it that way, and for the last five turns or so it has been close to impossible for you to fight back.

However, to my mind you had options you could have taken early on and throughout the game if you wanted to counter the threat.

Our biggest fear was you and rossahh teaming up against us, along with the Ayyubids. It baffled me that you never did get it together in that way. For the longest time the Ayyubids were unaligned - we deliberately left them out of our alliance at the start because we were worried about getting into an early war with 'the Christians' - had rossahh made peace with them, and you, you guys could have dominated at least as much as we did..

Also, had you pushed on instead of making peace with us at the end of the first jihad, I firmly believe you could have knocked one or both of me and barca out (again you would have needed rossahh onside).

That was only ten turns ago, and I thought you were about to win the game at that point!

Last point - the alliance wasn't 'unbreakable', in fact you almost had barca making a deal with you at one point. You just never were able to come up with anything that made sense to us to divide us.

From my perspective I could never cross the Seljuks, even from the beginning of the game, because of my super-long land border with them. I would have been dead meat! But barca didn't have to stick with me if he didn't want to.

And you saw it was possible for us to turn against our own (Shah, Ghorids, Oman?).

So it's not quite right to say you didn't ever stand a chance..

[The Lemongate]

You never really saw the first jihad from my perspective. You had won right there. The coffers were empty, I had no buildings, I had as much plague as you guys. My armies were made of 4 catapults in 4 different boats with assorted armenian archers, rus swordsmen mercs and kypchack cav. Those depleted stacks you had around Dyarbakir/Mardin/Fields of Glory amounted to around 4 to 5 times what I had, counting the militias guarding most towns.


Well in the early game, rossah, Banzai and me were unofficially allied against the strange coalition of ATPG and we were very wary of the Caliphate and Seljuks. When I came back, the Ayyubids were firmly against the Latins. Quirl did send me some cash to fight back which is how I managed to hold back a bit (bought mainly boats to try to block the Hellespont before realizing I couldn't). But at that point, Jerusalem and the Ayyubids hated each other's guts. Had I not underestimated rossahh and took a few more turns to invade the KoJ, I might've had a huge economic comeback + a steadfast Egyptian ally (but... my warmongering antics might've had the best of me because had the KoJ fallen, I was 100% comitted to trashing Egypt...) Soooooooooooooo, maybe I'm just too warlike :skull:

Rome fought:

Armenia
Turks
Georgia
Kypchaks
Ayyubids
Seljuks
Abbasids
Rajputs
Crusaders

...

I guess I should just get a clue.

[Quirl]

Wow. Is this game really over? Well, despite the fact that I will miss it, Barca has clearly won the game. So, I take no point against calling it now.

Congratulations, Barcamartin! :birthday2:

This was my first online hotseat, and I must say that it has been a blast. I've enjoyed every second of it with all of you. :beam:

I loved the IC chat in the courtroom and through personal PM. And though I became busier than I thought and found less and less time to write in the story room, I enjoyed that as well. I actually had a whole story planned for the "Man in Black," something along the lines of him representing fate and how the Avidids were doomed from the beginning, because fate had already been passed on them. I didn't actually expect to win and I didn't have enough time to change my story. :tongue3: Still, it was great fun battling against rossah in such a challenging game! He's a great player and I'm sad his computer gave out from the awesomeness of our battles. :laugh4:

In the beginning, I wanted to play honestly. I had been following the game for awhile before I joined, and saw so much backstabbing. I was curious to see what it would be like if a player played honestly. Well, that was virtually impossible for me! In the end, I had secretly funneled money to Rome, betrayed my Omani allies, then committed my nation to Rome's enemies. I did, however, have to turn down that conspiracy with Rome in where they were going to be giving me a bunch of their land. I would have then betrayed the Seljuks with the units spawned there, but that would have been using a free garrison, and would have been an exploit. But, hearing that you would have betrayed me, Lemon, I'm sure now I made the right choice. :laugh4:

Things got a little heated sometimes, but I still feel that I've made a lot of friends with all of you and experienced a great privilege to play this game near its end. Thanks for letting me sit in with you guys and I hope we can fight again in the near future. *tear* :smiley:

[phonicsmonkey]

You never really saw the first jihad from my perspective. You had won right there. The coffers were empty, I had no buildings, I had as much plague as you guys. My armies were made of 4 catapults in 4 different boats with assorted armenian archers, rus swordsmen mercs and kypchack cav. Those depleted stacks you had around Dyarbakir/Mardin/Fields of Glory amounted to around 4 to 5 times what I had, counting the militias guarding most towns.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

It's a good thing there wasn't some third party waiting to swoop in at that stage or we would both have been totally destroyed. When I made peace with you my treasury was -20k and I was losing unpredictably large amounts each turn from the plague, which was in ALL my cities except the very furthest east. That 20k you gave me in exchange for Erzurum, and 10k barca lent me, literally saved the Caliphate.

At that stage I sent all my remaining plague spies (15 or so!) into your lands to likewise cripple your economy. I know you didn't have the plague in all your lands because I put it there myself over the next few turns. :skull:

Of course I didn't know you were already bankrupt - all I knew is that you had catapults (I didn't!) and could take my cities at will while I looked on aghast.

I was so relieved when I managed to persuade barca to stop fighting (because you wouldn't make peace with me unless I did!)



Soooooooooooooo, maybe I'm just too warlike :skull:


Yeah, or maybe rossahh was too warlike for you to team up with? :clown:

I only actually fought Rome, KoJ, Ghorids and Omanis (other than rebels), but I think I was involved behind the scenes in virtually everything that happened in the game - the meddling Caliph!!

This was really great fun everyone, thanks so much!

[The Lemongate]

I know you didn't have the plague in all your lands because I put it there myself over the next few turns.

You replagued the cities that were starting to live again! Only Nikea, Nikomedeia, Smyrna and Konstantinopolis were spared the first wave. Mind you, those were the only cities with buildings east of Dyabarkir at that point.

[phonicsmonkey]

You replagued the cities that were starting to live again!

Ouch! Doncha just hate that? That happened to Baghdad too. :help:

This turn is one of three turns in the last ten where the people of Baghdad haven't been shuffling around coughing and sneezing, scratching their pustules and dropping dead. Poor blighters.

We really should join some hotseat over at the twcenter where they haven't seen the plague used - and just plague the living heck out of them until we rule the woooorld. :laugh4:

[The Lemongate]

Haha! That would be great! well for us anyways

Hmmm yeah, Baghdad... I didn't have many spies but those I had learned from the best :laugh4:

[Ramses II CP]

I'm content to let the game end here if you guys are. My Rajput plan was always contingent on cranking up my economy... unfortunately I revealed that to Zim, who was allied with EF/the Ghorids secretly, and EF attacked me at the oddest time as a result. I was waiting for him to hit on turn 3, and when he didn't I sort of assumed he was sticking with his agreement and let down my defenses by sending my starting armies out unforted.

During the war I had to sell every single non-military structure (Except shisa bars for spies and one port) in my cities to stay alive. I offered him that all or nothing MP battle because I had a pretty good idea a drawn out war would kill my economy gameplan, and it did. I eventually won, but it meant that what should've taken 10-12 turns has taken whatever we're up to know (40+?) instead.

I strongly considered making an alliance with the KoJ at several points after forcing the Ghorids to vassalage, but knowing that Zim had stabbed me once and that my economic breadbasket was still in the future kept me from jumping in. Oh, and the Ghorids stabbed me a second time before my ship borne army made it around Arabia. As far as I'm concerned I swept aside an unsuccessful member of the Caliph's cohorts and joined the winning team in his place. :laugh4:

Congrats Barca on a game well played! You know I was actually worried, when I subbed for you and hit that Roman catapult force, that I had expended so many spies there you might not be able to protect Rayy long enough to get your own catapults. Very clever negotiations with the Romans at that time to get a ceasefire.

This has been an awesome hotseat game. Gold standard IMHO. The first one at the Org, in vanilla, was marred by cheating, and the other three I've been in fell apart due to inactivity. We kept this one moving and interesting right through. We should do it again sometime. :2thumbsup:

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm content to let the game end here if you guys are. My Rajput plan was always contingent on cranking up my economy... unfortunately I revealed that to Zim, who was allied with EF/the Ghorids secretly, and EF attacked me at the oddest time as a result. I was waiting for him to hit on turn 3, and when he didn't I sort of assumed he was sticking with his agreement and let down my defenses by sending my starting armies out unforted.

During the war I had to sell every single non-military structure (Except shisa bars for spies and one port) in my cities to stay alive. I offered him that all or nothing MP battle because I had a pretty good idea a drawn out war would kill my economy gameplan, and it did. I eventually won, but it meant that what should've taken 10-12 turns has taken whatever we're up to know (40+?) instead.

I kept waiting for your attack from the East, but thankfully it never came! That war you had with EF was horribly mismanaged by the rest of us who subbed for him at the crucial moments, especially myself. I was too afraid to lose his armies so instead of pushing forwards I just entrenched him with forts and tried to move in steps...poor EF went away on top and came back facing vassalage..:oops:

[barcamartin]

Ok guys, thanks for all the kind words and thanks for a great hotseat! It was my first real hotseat, and I couldn't have asked for better co-players. THANKS!

Although I have not been a very good contributor in the IC threads (quite a poor one tbh) due to of time and lacking writing-skills, I have very much enjoyed reading all the stuff that the more vocal and creative fellows have put out there. THANKS!

As for the victory itself, the crucial part in my eyes was the swift occupation of the Kwharezm Shah (even if he barred himself up in Samarqand for ages). The Great Seljuks have long borders, and sharing the longest southern one with an Abbasid ally, and another long eastern one with a Ghaznavid ally really helped. Being able to focus all resources on one front was a great advantage few others had in this game. So, THANKS phonicsmonkey and Zim for "giving" my nation perfect conditions to go for the win.

Obviously, the extreme amount of spies I recruited throughout the game made my horse archer and family member blitzes possible. Combined with diplomatic "trickery" if you will, they were a weapon near impossible to fight. I definitely lost count of all of them, and looking at the agents list was like a joke. Losses were constantly replaced, while assassins effectively took care of enemy spies. Shisha Bars were my top priorities early on in the game, and it really paid off. THANKS, all agents of the Seljuk nation.

The scourges and plagues of Anatolia also took place far away from my financial centers, recruitment centers and other important hubs. Another crucial part in the Seljuk conquest. When both The Caliphate and the Romans struggled to get their war-torn and beplagued empires back on their feet, I could quickly and effectively use my vast amounts of un-plagued cash to rebuild my army, using the cease fire as an effective breather. THANKS, inhabitants of Anatolia and the Caliphate for shielding my people from the plague.

Not to forget, THANKS Ramses for subbing me with great skill and determination. When I lacked the time to play, you handled the Anatolian situation in a deeply impressing manner. Your skill forced Lemon to a cease fire (at least that's the way I saw it at the time) and you handled the strategically important Georgian-invasion with splendour. The loss of spies was covered with my many Shisha's, and ample merchants in my lands effectively levelled them up. Actually, my first catapult was still 5-10 turns away from the front (depending on the naval situation). Anyway, THANKS man!

The second Anatolian invasion was a battle against logistics, ship borne-catapults and the plague more than a war. I agree with Lemon, it definitely wasn't as enjoyable as earlier stages of the game, but it was a pretty obvious step to take. THANKS Lemon/Redemption for making this game very enjoyable and being a more than worthy foe ("But no lesser dead for that"-Medieval 2 Battle Announcer).

My plans for the next few turns were to basically retake whatever settlements you snatched, and use my two unharmed ships to stage an invasion of the Roman holdings along the northern Black Sea-coast. I was also considering attacking the Kypchaks. Ports were under construction in the Mediterranean, and troops were marching there to be sent to Rhodes, Crete and Cyprus. One question Lemon, where was your ruling family hiding? That oasis west of Egypt? :)

So, once more THANKS to all for a highly enjoyable game that lasted for a year and a half. Time well spent! Sweljuk Sultan, over and out. :D

[Merlox]

Woo, Time to start a new hotseat? :D 2.02!?

[The Lemongate]

Yes, the Great Empire of Siwa.

I wanted to make a story about the last Emperor meeting with a forgotten recluse in Siwa, the last heir to the once famous Oracles of Siwa, who would've made a parallel between the Roman's destruction of the Old Gods and the Seljuks' destruction of the Empire and how all things come to an end, maybe even hinting at the Seljuks' own doom sometime in the future.

I might still do that to close up the story of Artemios and Vatatzes. Vatatzes died of old age 1 turn after the capture of Siwa. Mind you, he was never a family member. Only one of my starting generals who lasted nearly until the end of the game. 60 something. And the only man with a Heroic Victory marker that I could see (vs Frederick von Swabia, the last european crusader).

Anyone else had a few heroic victory markers in the game?


Oh, and here's a list of my favorite characters from all nations:


Artemios Komnenos - I just liked the kid! He had no chance in hell to do anything but was still fun to write about.
Ioannis Vatatzes - Artemios' mentor and one of the two main commanders against the first jihad.
King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem - The King that simply would not die! Magnificently RP into all those shades of gray between good and evil. The Latin RP from rossahh really brought the game alive.
Caliph An-Nasir - Now here's a treacherous bastard if ever there was one. Of course he was suspect from day 1. But there never was anything to prove he was a two-timing bastard before the first jihad.
The Viziers - All of them! Pompous, arrogant fools!
The Overly Obese Ayyubid Diplomat - BanzaiKamikaze's legacy to this game. His posts were gold (or maybe sweet, sweet honeyed cakes...?)
Manuelos Komnenos - I could not ask for a more perfect ruler. He succeeded at everything he set out to do. Beat Kilij Arslan. Walked into Ikonion and Jerusalem. Secured the borders of the Empire. And saw the destruction of the rebellious Armenians.
Ioannes Dukas - Had a few good stories about him including the death of Kilij Arslan.
Romanus Sophianos - Best Roman general of the game. Beat the Rajputs and tons of Seljuks during the first jihad. Invaded the Cyprus and the Levant as far south as Jaffa. Died when his ship was sunk by crusaders.
Kilij Arslan, the Indestructable Sultan - Very annoying. Though his destruction was a most satisfying moment.

I never really got to know anyone from the East. So that's my list of memorable characters.

[phonicsmonkey]

So, once more THANKS to all for a highly enjoyable game that lasted for a year and a half. Time well spent! Sweljuk Sultan, over and out. :D

thanks barca for an extremely gracious victory address!


I might still do that to close up the story of Artemios and Vatatzes.

Please do!

In fact, I was going to ask everyone, pretty please, to do one last story for the story thread, just to wrap the game up - even if it's just one para, get writing! I will add my last story once I've seen a couple from others..

Lemon, your list of memorable characters made me lol - I take your comments about my characters as the highest praise indeed! And I also loved that corpulent Ayyubid ambassador.

Things I learned from this game:
- In order to keep a hotseat going you need to be very active as GM and constantly nagging people to play their turns (sorry if I was irritating! :laugh4:)
- Games with lots of RP are better than games without.
- The plague is the most effective weapon in the game.
- Never make people your vassal! Just defeat them, utterly!
- Early in the game, agents are crucial, later on siege engines are the trump card.
- It's very difficult to remain impartial as GM in a game if you are also trying to win it. Many times I had to make GM decisions that were contrary to my in-game interests..I hope I achieved the balance I was seeking.

And one more thing - I have another game planned, but let's finish the debrief of this one before I change the subject...

[Merlox]

Phonics, Would you like to host the newest 2.02 if your considering about hosting another?

[Quirl]

I'll create my last story for the story thread later tonight...

[phonicsmonkey]

I have added the following to the turn 45 update:

- Konstantinopolis is taken and razed to the ground (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2320958#post2320958) by Seljuk forces, effectively ending Roman resistance and ushering in a new Golden Age of Islamic rule (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2321222#post2321222)in the region.


Also, Lemon, you created a cool map at one point - think you could tell me how it was done so I can make one showing the final territorial boundaries at the end of the game (or make one for me)?

[TheFlax]

Great game and congrats to Barca. :bow:

Unfortunately, I don't have lots to reminisce about. I honestly felt I was more looking on from the sidelines than anything, or a front row seat to a show which involved me from time to time.

I'm sad that I didn't participate as much as I should IC, but my political irrelevance and the way I wanted to RP my rulers, meant I didn't have many opportunity to speak in the council and the vassalage of Georgia only compounded that. Its not that I couldn't find good story to tell, I just had no inclination or much interest in telling them.

Even with all that, I think this game was great. As some spectators mentioned they enjoyed the game, I got to be one step closer and be more or less involved. Thank you Lemongate from bringing me in from day one and thank you to all players, past and present, for making such a great hotseat possible.

[Zim]

Sad to see the game end but it's obvious barca earned that victory...

The first half of the game was the most interesting for me. I had joined up with Phonics, Barca, and Co. pretty early on. We avoided a public announcement early on in fear that everyone else would ally on the opposite side. Ending up invited to ATPG's Coalition some time later was priceless. I always intended to stay loyal to my original allies and spoke with the Brotherhood about it immediately.

The Shah was playing me and Barca off of each other in the early game without knowing we were really allied, which led to my favorite part of the game. I had a suspicious acting Shah just as it seemed Barca was gearing up to attack Georgia. Fake early war against the Seljuks aside I had been trying to remain as loyal to Georgia as able, and set about seeing if they were interested in fighting the Shah together instead. The early part of the war went great, but with the Faction leader's security bonus I couldn't get in Samarqand. I sold extra buildings and threw thousands of men at it, but just had to wait until they became AI permanently (I wasn't going to wipe them out if their player might still come back) or I got catapults. The former happened first. This probably kept me from pulling ahead of Ramses in production while he was selling off his own buildings...

I wasn't successful in helping the Georgians after that but I did agree to help them relocate to Soqotra if they were destroyed. I had a fleet finally leaving for the island as of the end of the game, while Georgia's faction heir sat near shore.

The rest of the game I was on the sidelines. I wouldn't betray my allies, and once that included Ramses I was boxed in. I helped a little against the Ghorids and Oman, and sent some assassins to Anatolia, and just built up. I'm afraid towards the end I let my merchants' numbers fall off as there seemed little to do and I wasn't paying much attention to my turns. I just fortified against a possible betrayal by Ramses and waited.

[phonicsmonkey]

OK guys, it's time to reveal my genius plan for a new game.

I mentioned it already to a few of you, so hopefully we'll all be onboard, but here goes.

I can edit the save game file for this game to change the date, thereby bringing the Mongol Invasion forward.

I can also make the Mongols a playable faction.

So, I propose a successor game to BC:CoTF called Broken Crescent Hotseat: Mongol Invasion.

We will have a human player in charge of the Mongols (The Lemongate, hell bent on revenge!), and all of the rest of us in charge of our current factions.

We'll need a new rule-set in order to make the game competitive, and here's what I'm thinking so far:

- Battles to be fought or autoresolved (player's choice)
- No use of spies or assassins.

Mongol Victory Conditions: Take and hold 20 provinces, sack two faction capitals

Non-Mongol Victory Conditions: Outlast the Mongols, take and hold 10 provinces from non-Mongol factions.

My idea is we'll have a short-ish and bloody game where the Mongols are initially on an all-out blitz against the Eastern factions (Ramses, Zim, barca), who will need the support of the Western factions (me, Quirl, TheFlax?) in order to fight them off. At the same time we'll all be eyeing each other up for our own victory...so this should provide some intrigue!

What do you think? Let me know firstly if you're in, and secondly what you think of the draft rules.

When we have a quorum I'll start a new thread and we can hash it out over there instead..

[Zim]

With our current borders? I think most of the nations in the east are ill prepared for an invasion, so it would be an interesting first couple dozen turns.

Maybe increase the Mongol conditions slightly (or both)?

I'd be up for it, despite being but a speedbump for the Mongols.

[Merlox]

Ummmm, the problem would be,... No, you couldn't technically do that. Due to atm, the Mongols are set as a thing so if you try save the turn at the start of there turn, it will not work. (Like if you were the aztecs, papal states, w/e.)

Also. I know how to directly mod this. And, I can get the game set up. With BC 2.02 though.

The BC 2.02 has added the Mongol mod to it, So it isn't just "Heavy Horse Archers". They all have legit names, their own character models, They look legit.
(Also, I can make it so it happens and nobody has done any thing yet.)

Also, if you are willing, I would take the spot of the mongols. I am a Kypchak khan in the other, might be fun acting like a Khan again =D

- Merlox

[phonicsmonkey]

Ummmm, the problem would be,... No, you couldn't technically do that. Due to atm, the Mongols are set as a thing so if you try save the turn at the start of there turn, it will not work. (Like if you were the aztecs, papal states, w/e.)

Also. I know how to directly mod this. And, I can get the game set up. With BC 2.02 though.

The BC 2.02 has added the Mongol mod to it, So it isn't just "Heavy Horse Archers". They all have legit names, their own character models, They look legit.
(Also, I can make it so it happens and nobody has done any thing yet.)

Also, if you are willing, I would take the spot of the mongols. I am a Kypchak khan in the other, might be fun acting like a Khan again =D

- Merlox


hi Merlox, well I did test it a while back and it all seemed to work fine. I was using MedManager to edit the save game file. I'll take another look at it if everyone is interested and make sure it still works.

Thanks for the offer, but we already have a Mongol player!

I agree the Mongols are better worked in 2.02 (they have vanilla stats in 1.05!), but this is really just intended to be a bit of fun as a reward for everyone in this game for sticking with it for so long, so I'm not too bothered if it isn't perfectly balanced..

I would definitely join a 2.02 game that involved the Mongol invasion, if someone were to run it.

I'm not sure I want to take on running a whole new hotseat from scratch right now, I am so time-poor!

[Merlox]

Oh, well. I do know a group of people who have a private released of the mongol invasion, (All settlements are upgraded and such. but they also have a few version of the map.)

If you wanted to, I would run it. since i'm the one that would need to produce the modded file.

As it is, Not many people it seems are umm, joining the latest one, could just be turned into a mongolian hotseat. I don't care.

(Mac manager? =p, Just go in the file and mod it. =p XD)

[phonicsmonkey]

With our current borders?

Yes!


Maybe increase the Mongol conditions slightly (or both)?

What about:

- Battles to be fought or autoresolved (player's choice)
- No use of spies or assassins.

Mongol Victory Conditions: Take and hold 25 provinces, sack three faction capitals

Non-Mongol Victory Conditions: Outlast the Mongols, take and hold 10 provinces from non-Mongol factions.

[TheFlax]

My idea is we'll have a short-ish and bloody game where the Mongols are initially on an all-out blitz against the Eastern factions (Ramses, Zim, barca), who will need the support of the Western factions (me, Quirl, TheFlax?) in order to fight them off. At the same time we'll all be eyeing each other up for our own victory...so this should provide some intrigue!

Is this some sort of joke? :clown:

I can't even support myself at this point, I have one town, one full stack, five spies and two boats, not counting my puny force in Ghaznavid land...

I'm not really inclined to join if all I'm going to do is press turn and move the save along.

[phonicsmonkey]

Is this some sort of joke? :clown:

I can't even support myself at this point, I have one town, one full stack, five spies and two boats, not counting my puny force in Ghaznavid land...

I'm not really inclined to join if all I'm going to do is press turn and move the save along.

Fair enough, I expected you to bow out but I didn't want to seem like I was excluding you. Hence the question mark..

Of course, you could stick around and send your one stack to fight Mongols!

[TheFlax]

Fair enough, I expected you to bow out but I didn't want to seem like I was excluding you. Hence the question mark..

Of course, you could stick around and send your one stack to fight Mongols!

I'd rather attack Barcamartin with it. :clown:

Actually if I had Kiev, I could probably try to take the steppes from the Kypchacks and then actually do something. :shrug:

[Quirl]

I will participate if the other players want to.

[The Lemongate]

Flax, I won't lie to you, I consider you to be one of the principal vectors of the Christian defeat by constantly refusing to engage the Seljuks. At the end of the First Jihad, had rossahh not signed peace with the Caliph and had you attacked the Seljuks as I was asking, I would've never made peace!

I'm not saying we could've won. Probably not. But things would have taken a different turn! You had one full stack! No one had a full stack with no plague in the west at that time!
Grrrrr!


Oh, and phonics, don't compound the hell bent on revenge. It already looks like a vendetta having me play the mongols! I'll RP them as a new hotseat, rather than a continuation/finale to this one. I consider it an honor you have asked me play them.

On a side note, If I could also be allowed to continue playing the Romans, I'll have all their remaining forces hide in Siwa and do nothing for the rest of the game, but I'd rather have them living in Siwa then suiciding themselves under the rule of a stupid AI. Barca and you can take the islands/Crimea at your leisure. Or I could even trade them all off in a peace deal (with your diplomats of course... I still have none).



Aaaah, and please o pretty please, call the game: Broken Crescent - Wrath of the Khan (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084726/).

[phonicsmonkey]

phonics, don't compound the hell bent on revenge. It already looks like a vendetta having me play the mongols! I'll RP them as a new hotseat, rather than a continuation/finale to this one. I consider it an honor you have asked me play them.

Sorry buddy, just trying to drum up interest by over-dramatizing the situation..:oops:


On a side note, If I could also be allowed to continue playing the Romans, I'll have all their remaining forces hide in Siwa and do nothing for the rest of the game, but I'd rather have them living in Siwa then suiciding themselves under the rule of a stupid AI. Barca and you can take the islands/Crimea at your leisure. Or I could even trade them all off in a peace deal (with your diplomats of course... I still have none).

Fine by me, so long as their territories don't count towards the VCs. Not like they'd put up much of a fight as the AI anyway..



Aaaah, and please o pretty please, call the game: Broken Crescent - Wrath of the Khan (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084726/).

LOL - KHAAAAAAN! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54)

yeah, Mongol Invasion is a pretty boring name, isn't it?

Wrath of the Khan is a good one

Also considered Storm in the East (harking back to the Caliph's dream, my first story post in the game)

[The Lemongate]

Also considered Storm in the East (harking back to the Caliph's dream, my first story post in the game)

Yes, with your permission, I might even reference to the Caliph's dream in my last story. The mysteries of the ancient pagan cult could have the Oracle of Siwa being the origin of such a "blasphemous" dream (referencing to both Islam and Christianity's roots in pagan mythology in their early - and not so early - days).


But for tonight, I have to finish my first story for the Stainless Steel hotseat. I will be trying to keep a relatively coherent theme for the Franks in that hotseat, as I feel I lacked consistency in BC.

[TheFlax]

Flax, I won't lie to you, I consider you to be one of the principal vectors of the Christian defeat by constantly refusing to engage the Seljuks.

There wasn't any alternative to defeat, me being the most inept player in this hotseat. So I chose to quit while I was ahead. Actually, that defines what I did all game, "cut and run", you can't blame me for being consistent in my actions.

[phonicsmonkey]

Yes, with your permission, I might even reference to the Caliph's dream in my last story.

Reference away good buddy...as long as you do so with due respect to the Caliph (rest his eternal soul)

By the way, re-read the dream and see if you can catch any of the hints in there as to what would unfold later.

[Zim]

I fully support the name "Wrath of the Khan" and will even start writing stories again if the new game happens.

However, I have a condition. As the one likely to bear the brunt of our most skillful and citrusy player's attack, I reserve the right to do a Shatneresque "KHHHAAANNNN!" if/when the Mongols crush me.

[The Lemongate]

Final Map:

https://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww333/CocaColaRevolution/BCFinal-SeljukVictory-1.jpg

I could also provide you with the list of Turkish/Arab names for all those Anatolian cities I renamed to greco-roman names if you want it.

As for the victory conditions, I've been thinking about them and I'd rather just keep them as guidelines. It would probably be more interesting to keep it free-style.

For example, if the Mongols fought both Seljuks and Ghaznavids, it would be quite easy for the Rajputs to quickly snatch 10 regions from a weakened Ghaznavid Empire before the Mongols had 25 regions and 3 capitals, which would force the Mongols to some rather odd strategic choices.

Anyways, I might just be neurotic on that last part.

[phonicsmonkey]

Final Map:

https://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww333/CocaColaRevolution/BCFinal-SeljukVictory-1.jpg

I could also provide you with the list of Turkish/Arab names for all those Anatolian cities I renamed to greco-roman names if you want it.

As for the victory conditions, I've been thinking about them and I'd rather just keep them as guidelines. It would probably be more interesting to keep it free-style.

For example, if the Mongols fought both Seljuks and Ghaznavids, it would be quite easy for the Rajputs to quickly snatch 10 regions from a weakened Ghaznavid Empire before the Mongols had 25 regions and 3 capitals, which would force the Mongols to some rather odd strategic choices.

Anyways, I might just be neurotic on that last part.

Hey, thanks for the map! Ok if I link to it in the first post of this thread?

And the names would be good too - I took to naming my captured cities after fallen Caliphs, but ran out after An-Nasirya, Az-Zahira and Abu Bakria (moved on to present family members: Sulaymanya, Al-Mustansyria etc).

Regarding the VCs, my intention was to force the human players to fight both the Mongols and each other, giving the Mongols a chance of victory - as well as giving the Mongols an incentive to behave like...well, like Mongols! Because if we all gang up on you we probably beat you, right?

So in your example, the Rajputs would get beaten on by other factions before they could win by knocking out the Mongols.

The Mongols wouldn't need to worry - they could just carry on getting their territories and fight off the Rajput attacks, right? Because the Rajputs need to destroy the Mongols to win, but the Mongols don't necessarily need to destroy the Rajputs..

[Merlox]

... This may sound extreme, but, Historically the Mongols captured most of that map we see here now. You should make the Winning for the Mongol... 50... 60 provinces?

[phonicsmonkey]

... This may sound extreme, but, Historically the Mongols captured most of that map we see here now. You should make the Winning for the Mongol... 50... 60 provinces?

Historically you are of course correct, but I think that would be too hard for them in this particular game because all of the factions are well developed.

[Ramses II CP]

I'm definitely in for this! I think we should probably rule out the Omani territories (And all other AI/rebel stuff) from being considered as part of the 'take 10 more provinces' rule. I am also willing to sign an OOC unbreakable alliance with the Ghazni if you're concerned I'll take advantage of my uniquely beneficial location.

The money is really starting to roll in for me right now, and I can slaughter some Mongol stacks if I catch 'em in the open. My limitation is going to be distance and production; I still don't have a decent castle west of Delhi.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

Oh, and one more thing! We'll have to set the Faction Capitals as an OOC matter because in game they can be moved a little too easily to make that a valid Mongol victory condition.

:egypt:

[Merlox]

Correct and Incorrect... Sadly though.. All of the nations forces were not being fortified, most likely where they were, as Europe was the next stepping stone, the Rest of the crusaders, such, =p When the Mongols hit. THEY HIT. XD

+, they had superb gear, but also another sad thing is, They would get wiped out if you left them at this game, the armies of spies and assassins are better than just a few armies with seige engines, and no spies

[The Lemongate]

I'm definitely in for this! I think we should probably rule out the Omani territories (And all other AI/rebel stuff) from being considered as part of the 'take 10 more provinces' rule. I am also willing to sign an OOC unbreakable alliance with the Ghazni if you're concerned I'll take advantage of my uniquely beneficial location.

The money is really starting to roll in for me right now, and I can slaughter some Mongol stacks if I catch 'em in the open. My limitation is going to be distance and production; I still don't have a decent castle west of Delhi.

:egypt:



Oh, and one more thing! We'll have to set the Faction Capitals as an OOC matter because in game they can be moved a little too easily to make that a valid Mongol victory condition.

:egypt:


Actually, that's why I say: let's use the "victory conditions" as guidelines. See what happens with diplomacy, opportunity, etc.

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm definitely in for this! I think we should probably rule out the Omani territories (And all other AI/rebel stuff) from being considered as part of the 'take 10 more provinces' rule.:egypt:

This was my intention with the VCs I proposed - only territories taken from another human-controlled faction would count.


Oh, and one more thing! We'll have to set the Faction Capitals as an OOC matter because in game they can be moved a little too easily to make that a valid Mongol victory condition.

We could just include specific city names instead of saying 'Faction Capitals'. Ie. 3 of Baghdad, Rayy, Ghazni, Cairo or Delhi, like in EB...


Actually, that's why I say: let's use the "victory conditions" as guidelines. See what happens with diplomacy, opportunity, etc.

Does anyone else want this? My preference is to have fixed VCs that we spend some time drafting now so that they work out in practice. I don't see how guidelines are going to produce the desired in-game behaviour between the non-Mongol factions.

[Quirl]

"Victory conditions" as guidelines? Then what would the actual victory conditions be? I don't think I'm totally understanding this...

Anyways, why do we need to decide the victory conditions for any other players other than the mongols (who, obviously, don't have default victory conditions in BC). The Seljuks would immediately lose land to the Mongols and so wouldn't be in any huge advantage in default victory conditions. And default victory conditions still pitch players against each other (the Seljuks, for instance, have to capture Baghdad).

So, I really don't think we need to decide victory conditions for anyone other than the Mongols, which we might make a bit easier or harder to obtain than the other factions'.

That's my opinion, for now.

[The Lemongate]

Haven't we just declared the Seljuks victorious while they haven't met their preset victory conditions? That's what I mean by guidelines. The Seljuks won because it makes sense to declare them the winners now, not because they conquered 60 territories + Baghdad (since it would make little sense for them to fight the Caliph at this point). But I don't mind having a set of victory conditions either if guidelines make it too fuzzy.

[phonicsmonkey]

"Victory conditions" as guidelines? Then what would the actual victory conditions be? I don't think I'm totally understanding this...

Anyways, why do we need to decide the victory conditions for any other players other than the mongols (who, obviously, don't have default victory conditions in BC). The Seljuks would immediately lose land to the Mongols and so wouldn't be in any huge advantage in default victory conditions. And default victory conditions still pitch players against each other (the Seljuks, for instance, have to capture Baghdad).


My feeling is that the default victory conditions wouldn't be appropriate to the new game - for instance, the Seljuks could win easily within a small number of turns, and the Ayyubids (for example) would have little or no chance of winning.

My idea was to create a new game from the end of the current one, with new VCs that attempt to level the playing field a little.


Haven't we just declared the Seljuks victorious while they haven't met their preset victory conditions?

Yes, and we could do the same kind of thing in the new game if we encounter a situation that makes the VCs seem silly or redundant.

But I think it best to at least start with some fixed VCs so we can 1) give the Mongols something specific to aim for and 2) give the other factions a fair shot at winning, and a reason to do something other than just team up and kill Mongols.

That's my view, but as always I'll go with the majority - I want this to be fun for everyone, of course.

What do Zim and barca think of the VCs?

[Zim]

Victory conditions seem fine to me.

[phonicsmonkey]

So, just to summarise what I have so far:

Rule set

- The same rule on exploits etc as the old game
- 48 hour turn deadlines
- No spies or assassins to be used
- Battles to be fought (VH/VH) or autoresolved at the choice of the player

Mongol Victory Conditions
- Take and hold 25 provinces
- Sack three of the following cities: Ghazni, Rayy, Delhi, Baghdad, Cairo (NB. These don't have to be held, they can be captured once, sacked and abandoned)

Non-Mongol Victory Conditions
- Outlast the Mongols
- Take and hold 10 provinces from another Non-Mongol, human-controlled faction

I'm thinking maybe up the Non-Mongol provinces to 15? What do you guys think?

Also, I tried to set up and test the game last night and found my version of MedManager wasn't working.

Scanning the forums it seems this might be a conflict issue with either Kingdoms or SS6.2...There's a newer version of MedManager which I can try, or I can try to do it on my laptop where I have no versions of M2TW or mods installed at all.

Watch this space - if I need help I'll shout out.

(Out of interest, does anyone NOT have Kingdoms and SS6.2 installed?)

[Quirl]

Rules seem fine with me (and I don't have stainless steel installed right now).

However, why exactly are we not using spies and assassins? Is that a balancing thing or did people just find them really that annoying? :clown:

[phonicsmonkey]

However, why exactly are we not using spies and assassins?

A few reasons I'm suggesting that rule:
- The Mongols don't have any, and we can easily keep them from having any by destroying shisha bars before they take our cities
- There's still some plague around that we could spread to any Mongol-held territories pretty easily and cripple them early on.
- One lucky round of assassinations could wipe out the Mongols in a single turn.

We could still use spies for spying I think, but not for opening gates and spreading plague. But not assassins.

Quirl, do you have Kingdoms installed?

[Quirl]

Well, I'm not sure how I feel about not being able to use spies. I've never liked the way siege equipment works in medieval, especially BC. Siege is just so slow on map and ballistas don't even open gates in BC!

Plus, not being able to use spies really blinds us on the battlemap. :inquisitive:

As GM, can't you spawn spies for the mongols in map? I don't think that would be unfair.


Quirl, do you have Kingdoms installed?

Of course. :thumbsup:

[phonicsmonkey]

As GM, can't you spawn spies for the mongols in map? I don't think that would be unfair.

Pretty sure this is not possible in the scenario we're considering. If it were a new game we could mod the files to add / remove agents from particular factions, but given we're trying to use a game which is already established any modifications (other than those possible through the MedManager facility: campaign difficulty, unit size, TPY and date) have to be made through the console.

And I'm not aware of a console command to add / remove agents. I'd be happy to do this if there were such a command and everyone was in agreement.

Re: Siege equipment, I think it's a good thing that ballistae don't open gates, for realism. Catapults and trebuchets I can just about handle in that respect.

Siege weapons aren't quite so slow in BC from what I've experienced in this game - I've been able to get catapults from Baghdad to Syria in three turns - that's not bad, is it?

I appreciate, however, that you are a long way from the Mongols - but that's an advantage to you in other ways.

Think of it this way - the slowness of our siege equipment gives the Mongols a little head start, which will help make them formidable. They can't recruit (as far as I'm aware), so they'll be blitzing with their starting stacks (all fifteen of them!) which we'll need to take out as quickly as possible.

This is another reason for having 'short-campaign'-style VCs..

What does everyone else think about the spy issue?

[Ramses II CP]

I don't know if I'll ever get to siege weapons, so cutting out spies will quite likely prevent me from having a chance of victory. I'm okay with that though if I get a crack at some decent Mongol stacks. :laugh4:

BC's Mongol wars are some of the most fun I've had with MTWII. Their generals, even in 1.05, can 'swim' through thousands of cheap spearmen, and don't even think of bringing javelins against them. It makes for some great fun!

:egypt:

[Quirl]

Oh, I thought that the "create_unit" cheat enabled spawning of agents. Reading more about it just now, though, I don't think it does. :thumbsdown:

I'll do whatever, then...

[phonicsmonkey]

I don't know if I'll ever get to siege weapons, so cutting out spies will quite likely prevent me from having a chance of victory. I'm okay with that though if I get a crack at some decent Mongol stacks. :laugh4::egypt:

One thing I could do is add_population with the console so you have a big enough city to build the siege engine factory.

That would level the playing field a little with the rest of us (who, I believe all have siege engines available? is that right?)

[barcamartin]

I'm fine with whatever to be honest. As long as we agree on something, it should be fun. :)

Btw, "taking 15 provinces from a non-Mongol faction", does that mean 15 from one faction or 15 from several factions combined?

[phonicsmonkey]

Btw, "taking 15 provinces from a non-Mongol faction", does that mean 15 from one faction or 15 from several factions combined?

Thanks, that should really read 'take 15 provinces from non-Mongol human-controlled factions' - so you could take 5 each from 3 different players.

Of course you'd still need to beat the Mongols. And let me tell you, that's not going to be easy!

I won't go into detail here (because it will make the game more fun if there's an element of mystery involved) but I tested the game last night and the Mongols are totally badass.

In fact, so much so that I'm considering relaxing the rule on spies to allow us to use them to open gates, but not to spread plague. And assassins would still be banned.

What does everyone think of this? It would also mean I don't have to do anything to intervene like adding population for Ramses so he can build a siege factory.

I think the game is more or less ready to go, so if I can have everyone's comment on the following ruleset, I'll go ahead and make the new threads and post the first save (for Zim) as soon as we are all agreed.

Rule set

- The same rule on exploits etc as the old game
- 48 hour turn deadlines
- No plagued spies to be used to enter cities or castles.
- No assassins to be used.
- Battles to be fought (VH/VH) or autoresolved at the choice of the player

Mongol Victory Conditions
- Take and hold 25 provinces
- Sack three of the following cities: Ghazni, Rayy, Delhi, Baghdad, Cairo (NB. These don't have to be held, they can be captured once, sacked and abandoned)

Non-Mongol Victory Conditions
- Outlast the Mongols
- Take and hold 10 provinces from Non-Mongol, human-controlled factions

[Ramses II CP]

Don't make things easier on us. I could rip through the Mongols with 2 or 3 stacks of elephants. Admittedly it'll take me some time to generate those, and it's a lot different when a player can build forts, etc. but even with that in consideration if you give me spies at the pace I can currently produce them (~12 per turn) the Mongols will not have much of a chance. Forts won't protect them in the slightest, and will become death traps for otherwise decent troops.

:egypt:

[Ramses II CP]

I would also add, don't add any population for me. If I get to siege engines then I do, and if I don't that'll be okay too. My nation was crippled for half it's play time by the Ghorid war and I shouldn't get a bonus just because I let that happen.

:egypt:

[phonicsmonkey]

Don't make things easier on us. .....if you give me spies at the pace I can currently produce them (~12 per turn) the Mongols will not have much of a chance. Forts won't protect them in the slightest, and will become death traps for otherwise decent troops.

:egypt:

Fair enough.

I'm inclined to give Ramses' comments a fair amount of weight given how prodigiously he stomped the Mongols in his Rajput AAR.

So, back to no spies unless there's a majority in favour of them.

[Quirl]

lol. Are spies in or out???

I would personally rather be able to use spies. I respect the opinion of Ramses, too. But we've all seen Lemongate's ability with inferior Roman forces and being outnumbered. I don't think he'll be easy prey with superior forces and plenty of them! Mongol AI is challenging, but certainly beatable. I doubt the same will be the case for Mongol, human controlled (or, rather, "Lemon powered" :clown:).

Also, confining the mongols to siege weapons will really slows their pace. As it is now, I think the Mongols have early game advantage. Our armies aren't really very prepared and built up to the efficiency of the Mongol stacks Lemon will start off with. If Lemon is forced to trudge through with siege equipment, rather than be able to blitz and sack cities to gain additional income (holding cities he considers defensible) I think we take a key advantage away from the Mongols, not to them. It will be our responsibility to hold off a Mongol blitz and build up our forces, hopefully gaining the advantage later in the game.

But that's all just my opinion. Regardless, I'm definitely with you on the banning of assassins and spreading the plague.

[The Lemongate]

I tend to agree with Ramses' assessment as well. From what I've seen of this game, Rajput armies are currently the best ones out there and the only ones I'd fear from the start.

But I believe I might have something to thwart them. Well... maybe. Last time I tried that trick it didn't work out too well.

Also: are we getting a new diplo thread? story thread? OOC thread? I don't believe this "part II" will be so short. It could be made into its own, "unique" game, if you will.

[Quirl]

Sorry, I updated my last post after Lemon replied. :clown:

Also, are Deathstars banned? They're not that OP. With enough farm boys, we should be able to take one out...

[The Lemongate]

Mind you, if most people favor spies in, then I don't mind.

However, the Mongols will never have spying capabilities in this game. Making money with them is very hard. Once they capture a city, their upkeep kicks in, and, as I was saying to phonics your debt runs up faster then a fleeing Georgian.

So building up a spy network from scratch is nearly impossible.

Actually, the best mongol strategy is to pack 4 nightfighting max dread, max command generals with full stacks next to one another sieging a town and capturing it the next turn.

The mongols start with siege equipment. But it quickly becomes an obsolete, slow moving tag-along, far from the front lines. Then again, I'm not sure how quickly I'd blitz going vs players compared to going vs AI.

Vs AI and autocalc'ing, a quick test had the initial "punch" of the mongols blow off around Rayy on one side and Ghazni on the other.

[Quirl]

Mind you, if most people favor spies in, then I don't mind.

The same goes here. I'm just offering a counter argument for consideration since one argument was already made for not using spies.


Now, what about spreading snakes onto enemy planes? Will that be banned?

[The Lemongate]

I've had it with these m*%f#$g snakes on this m#f$*%g plane!

I was going through the Court of the Caliph for some info and found this again:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=154&stc=1&d=1242932209

Quite honored to have been given the spot of Palpatine (so dreadfully evil was I?). Though now I'm thinking some of these characters need to be R.I.P. with little red "X" and we need to paste in Godzilla for the Khan :laugh4:

[phonicsmonkey]

Also: are we getting a new diplo thread? story thread? OOC thread? I don't believe this "part II" will be so short. It could be made into its own, "unique" game, if you will.

YES, it will.

I'm going to set them up once we have decided the rules once and for all.

So, we have:

Spies YES
Quirl

Spies NO
Ramses
monkey
Lemon

So it looks like no, unless both Zim and barca weigh in and force a recount. I give them 24 hours to do so.

Maybe in that case we'll put some snakes on a plane and work it out from there..

[The Lemongate]

Don't forget Flax's all important voice in these matters.

He does have the largest army in the steppes after all! An entire geo-political region ripe for the taking! ph45r the Georgians!

[Quirl]

Quite honored to have been given the spot of Palpatine (so dreadfully evil was I?). Though now I'm thinking some of these characters need to be R.I.P. with little red "X" and we need to paste in Godzilla for the Khan :laugh4:[/spoil]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=222&stc=1&d=1251343068
Made it just for you, Lemon. :clown:

[phonicsmonkey]

Don't forget Flax's all important voice in these matters.

He does have the largest army in the steppes after all! An entire geo-political region ripe for the taking! ph45r the Georgians!

I thought he was out..Flax, if you want to stay you can have the casting vote!

Funny thing - when I tested the game setup last night I set all the factions to AI except Ghazni.

Two turns into the test the Georgians were devoured by Kypchaks! :skull:

[The Lemongate]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=222&stc=1&d=1251343068
Made it just for you, Lemon. :clown:

Okay, this warrants a :balloon:

Thanks Quirl!

[Quirl]

Okay, this warrants a :balloon:

Thanks Quirl!

NP. And I think we found the title for our new game. :laugh4:

[barcamartin]

I guess the "no spies in enemy settlements"-rule is good. Sorry about my lack of commitment to the discussion, just haven't got any time atm.

[phonicsmonkey]

Well, that decides it as far as I'm concerned.

Finally time to let this thread go I think...