Capo di Tutti Capi IV [Concluded]

[Earthling]

I counted a minimum of 60ish non-mafia starting roles, that's about the same on the count, though it's presuming in any case that we can really know the starting alignment of everyone, some of the dead-as-wiseguys like Diamondeye might not have started that way going the other way.

With 50 as the estimate the doctors have to be absolutely sure that only four original mafia/wiseguys roles will be alive. It's still a very dangerous situation for the town doctors to be in, because 5 surviving original scum could easily not do it for them, and the status of someone still alive could be wrong or just a lie because you want them to trust you and throw away their victory.

And again, None of this changes there are enough votes to simply lynch Don Clemenza today if non-Clemenzas bother to vote, and that will also make the townies at least much, much more safe and secure in your status for secondary victory-bumps.

[Askthepizzaguy]

DUDE.


Listen, I'm not going to let you screw this up for YOUR OWN SIDE.


The lawyer can not only spare us from the lynch, but also can choose a replacement person at will.

It's in the QTs which were UNDOUBTEDLY LEAKED TO THE TOWNIES BY NOW.

If the remaining townies break ranks then I'll have no choice but to lynch them, and that's really dumb because they already got their stinking WIN conditions.

Leave them aloooone.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That was that promotion on the third successful lynch protect.

If you wanted to save the game for the townies you shouldn't have tried to lynch Fyremarble. Dave's role was powerful enough before that, then you turned him into a supervillain.

[Earthling]

So Ironside achieves victory when you kill him today, just like Secura and the Stranger? They weren't even fully on the town side but the town would still want to help them out.

Sure, attempt the lynch on DaveShack then if that's the only valid option to hit a Clemenza right now, there will be another night either way.

A couple nights ago, the doctors had guaranteed losses with the number of scum alive if things had ended then and the Clemenza hadn't killed some of their own potential members. This was ignored or purposefully lied about to any doctors willing to go along, that they'd still get their victories bumped up. It is possible but still not a sure thing, that someone like Double A or Niklas or DaveShack didn't have a starting role that counts as scum and knocks down your victory, and someone lied or didn't know about that. Whereas if you take down some Clemenza you're guaranteed to win.

But again, anyone who is listening to him must know that pizza has been trying the whole time to prevent people from screwing up victory for folks like Secura or all those extinct mafia families (well, many would actually win too if the Corleone win instead of the Clemenza, though loyalty to dead allies seems mostly out on the mafia side)

[LazyMcCrow]

unvote, vote: Ironside
unselect, select: Seon

:bow:

[Askthepizzaguy]

So Ironside achieves victory when you kill him today, just like Secura and the Stranger? They weren't even fully on the town side but the town would still want to help them out.

How badly does the town want to help out Ironside? We're about to find out.


Ironside, please lynch Death is yonder for me.


Ironside says he's absolutely a third party role. Okay, if that's the case I'd rather see the surgeon go down who keeps trying to block my sanctioned hit attempts, won't communicate, and won't even work with fellow Doctors to get them their protects.

Death is indeed yonder for someone. Bring me a surgeon, my rogue friend.

[classical_hero]

unvote; vote:Ironside

I'll allow ATPG to do the talking, since it seems to be futile to talk to Earthling. It does feel good to be one of the few starting wiseguys alive, I am just surprised that so many townies decided to go mafia when they could have don their best to do th exact opposite, so basically the town was screwed right from the start.

[Ironside]

Under protest, but nevertheless.

Unvote: Vote: DIY

Select: Seon

[Askthepizzaguy]

unvote; vote:Ironside

I'll allow ATPG to do the talking, since it seems to be futile to talk to Earthling. It does feel good to be one of the few starting wiseguys alive, I am just surprised that so many townies decided to go mafia when they could have don their best to do th exact opposite, so basically the town was screwed right from the start.

Oh yeah.

That said, all the doctors and potential rogues they had? Plus their starting agents/doctor/surgeon? Plus the FBI and FPD? If they had followed my promotion plan, and just not had me organizing it, they could have wiped the floor with the mafia.

EASILY.

It was a lack of will, that's all. Town had as much or more firepower than the last game, and the mafia had a very rough beginning. Town could have pasted them easily.

[Death is yonder]

How badly does the town want to help out Ironside? We're about to find out.


Ironside, please lynch Death is yonder for me.


Ironside says he's absolutely a third party role. Okay, if that's the case I'd rather see the surgeon go down who keeps trying to block my sanctioned hit attempts, won't communicate, and won't even work with fellow Doctors to get them their protects.

Death is indeed yonder for someone. Bring me a surgeon, my rogue friend.

I've been exceedingly busy. I admit that .org has not been on my mind, nor anyway near the top of my priority list, but if you want this poor 'ol doctor dead then hmmph can't say I didn't see it possibly coming down one time or another :wink:

Not to mention I'm conserving pms because I've repeatedly approached my limit and have little that I don't want gone.

Ironside, thank you for reciprocating what you could, I appreciate it but am sad that it has to come to this :bow:


and won't even work with fellow Doctors to get them their protects.


I have a lot of qualms with going against my role pm, thank you very much :bow:

Vote: Abstain
Select: Abstain

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've been exceedingly busy. I admit that .org has not been on my mind, nor anyway near the top of my priority list, but if you want to go back on me just for the sake of doing so, please don't hide behind a smoke screen and say "Hey DiY I want you dead, I lied, nothing personal mate". Although maybe the last part is always a lie in some form or another, but yeah, please do that.

I could quote you chatlogs from where I talked to Seon and he said you weren't interested in working with him to get those protects.

That helps you whether you win as town team or not; added victory level for free.


I have a lot of qualms with going against my role pm, thank you very much :bow:

There we go; it's not a betrayal if you're working actively for a town team victory instead of taking the compromise I offered. As is your prerogative to refuse, as is my prerogative to try to make you dead, being Mafia and all.

You think this is personal? That's silly. I've never had any personal issue with you, and we have a great rapport before this game. It's not personal, it's just business. I think that's in the Mafia Rules, seriously, anyone taking this personally shouldn't be playing.

[Death is yonder]

No I do not think this is personal, its more of a general comment rather than a directed accusation :bow:


I could quote you chatlogs from where I talked to Seon and he said you weren't interested in working with him to get those protects.

The question is from when :wink:


There we go; it's not a betrayal if you're working actively for a town team victory instead of taking the compromise I offered. As is your prerogative to refuse, as is my prerogative to try to make you dead, being Mafia and all.

The going against the role pm thing was mainly just puzzlement that NB wouldn't take the opportunity to possibly get a win for all the town last round, only so much one can work with the mafia :tongue:

[Death is yonder]

Vote: Abstain
Select: Abstain

Previous voting has been invalidated by edited post.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The going against the role pm thing was mainly just puzzlement that NB wouldn't take the opportunity to possibly get a win for all the town last round, only so much one can work with the mafia :tongue:

I'd like to stick up for NB here; not that I think you're attacking him, but questioning his decision.

If I were lynched yesterday, Niklas/Renata and the former Clemenza would have become a family together. It still would have been a mafia win.

NB was just not interested in joining the insurrection and its need to specifically deny Askthepizzaguy a win, otherwise changing very little about the outcome.

He saw it as not worthy of his participation, and given the outcome was the same for the team either way, but *I* was doing everything in my power to get him his needed protections, and Renata/the others were not, that made his choice pretty darned simple.


Listen, if the outcome is the exact same in either case, Askthepizzaguy the scum dying and mafia winning, or Chaotix the scum dying and the mafia winning, what difference does it make to Nightbringer?

A little thing like helping him achieve close victory instead of a draw is a legitimate move I can make to win his favor. He wasn't betraying the town there, the town was already sunk. Town was defeated a while back.


Granted, a little thing like having a close victory over a draw isn't that much of a difference to some, but I was making the effort. That mattered to NB, and given a win is a lot different from a draw, and a draw is a lot different from a loss, that slight difference meant the world to Nightbringer.

Let's face facts, I did more for Nightbringer than any other player in the game. Why would his loyalty be a surprise? I earned it.



Just defending him as a player. There was no town win that he just turned down.

It also means that the cross-alignment assistance I offered him was not only a legitimate tactic, but a game-winning one. It can be done. Thinking outside the mafia/town box there.

[Renata]

I'd like to stick up for NB here; not that I think you're attacking him, but questioning his decision.

If I were lynched yesterday, Niklas/Renata and the former Clemenza would have become a family together. It still would have been a mafia win.

NB was just not interested in joining the insurrection and its need to specifically deny Askthepizzaguy a win, otherwise changing very little about the outcome.

I object. The actual point was to get Renata a win or die trying, tyvm. At least from my perspective. And the "close defeat" criterion was in fact an issue for the town doctors (not sure whether it still is). If Neri hadn't died; if I hadn't made myself Don -- do the town doctors still have a shot? Probably not. You weren't going to kill off Krill, Neri, Diana, Auto, whoever -- just to help them out. Whereas I had to take out a few Clemenza or have no shot at all, and might as well target original wiseguys/mafia as anyone.

[Double A]

unvote, vote: Ironsideways
http://application.denofgeek.com/images/gb/tr/sideways.jpg

[Askthepizzaguy]

I object. The actual point was to get Renata a win or die trying, tyvm. At least from my perspective. And the "close defeat" criterion was in fact an issue for the town doctors (not sure whether it still is). If Neri hadn't died; if I hadn't made myself Don -- do the town doctors still have a shot? Probably not. You weren't going to kill off Krill, Neri, Diana, Auto, whoever -- just to help them out.

You have a point there. I had actually forgotten about said stipulations. Good on whoever to look it up. It's also moot now given only 4 will survive.

That said, a draw is still better than a defeat, really. In tournament play for chess, a draw is worth half a point and half a point can make all the difference.

I consider draws to be wins. You weren't beaten, so you win.



Need an example? How about the Cold War. Not blowing each other up? That's a win for everyone. Even if the other side is still standing. Maybe someone packs up and goes home.

[sturmhauke]

Can someone explain to me why that :daisy: lawyer is still alive? We've known who he is for like half the game now.

[classical_hero]

Because ATPG would have had protection on him and plus it is pointless for any mafia to kill him, since he does not count against us. But you guys would never have been able to attack him nor get the required votes, unless you started out much earlier against the ATPG plan, but that never happened and many were actually helping him to achieve his goals, so it would be unlikely to get rid of him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What's really going to burn your back hairs is that DaveShack had absolutely zero protection covering him for..... I don't even know. 6, 7, 8 rounds in a row? No idea. Everyone assumed he was protected, and that's why I didn't need to protect him. A vigilante strike or a mafia hit would have ended all hopes of me surviving anything, but nobody gave it a shot.

Worse, Dave forgot to cover anyone at all today. I've been vulnerable allllllll day long....

Phase ends: 1 hour 46 minutes.

He's done that on more than one occasion too.




I'm sorry, is this not helping? Sorry....

[Niklas]

vote: Ironside
select: Seon

My hands are tied.

[Renata]

*imagines the 'sexy gangster' image from a few pages back with hands tied...*

Erm.

[Askthepizzaguy]

*imagines the 'sexy gangster' image from a few pages back with hands tied...*

Erm.

I am the Director, I could write things for you....

[Niklas]

*imagines the 'sexy gangster' image from a few pages back with hands tied...*
"Is that a tommy gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

But if that's how you want to play, I found an image of you some hours later...

https://img337.imageshack.us/img337/348/gangstababe.png

Guys, you really should have joined our team.

[Ironside]

I suppose now it's the time to talk about how long we did cooperate in this game APTG?

Thanks for for the lesson learned...

Unvote
Unselect

[Askthepizzaguy]

But if that's how you want to play, I found an image of you some hours later...

Guys, you really should have joined our team.


I'm very confident in my own physical attractiveness as well.

https://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb225/askthepizzaguy/Misc/Chess/Pizzahutt.jpg

[Renata]

Guys, you really should have joined our team.

:yes:

[Krill]

unvote, vote: Ironside
unselect, select: Seon

Just to make sure everything is correct.

[seireikhaan]

Round was over 10 minutes ago. Krill, your vote change doesn't count.

[Niklas]

"Is that a tommy gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhcGNN9r1D4

[Renata]

LOL.

Why aren't you on MSN?

[Askthepizzaguy]

2400 Plaza del Universo
Radio City building, Suite 501
Fatlington, New Jersey




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGVyenDWVfc





You know your world is in my hands
You know I pull the strings
I like to see how tall you stand
Cause if I wanted I could take it away

Get laid out
Or I'm gonna lay you out
Stay down
Or I'm gonna keep you down

I want it to break I want it to burn
I wanna bury you until it hurts
And I'll take I don't ask
This breath will be your last

Do you feel the collapse?









Let's put this puppy to rest, shall we?

[Krill]

Round was over 10 minutes ago. Krill, your vote change doesn't count.

Ah, np, wasn't sure.

[seireikhaan]

Please send your orders to Issakhaan ONLY. Do not send them to GeneralHankerchief


"You wake up believing this day will end by evening
It's taken for granted that seeds of life are planted
But nothing prepares you for nature's acts of virtue
It's Doomsday, ascending, the world you know is ending

Seas will rise and the mountains will stir
With the power of creation
We will end in a fiery rage"
...Doomsday
...Globus


The Director called the meeting to order. It seemed much quieter today, as if all the fight had gone out of the Committee. The events of the previous day must have shaken them. The votes were tallied and it looked as though Ironside was the chosen one on this particular day.

Ironside stood up, looking a bit disgusted by this turn of events, turned coldly toward the Director. Hardly anyone spoke up in his defense. Resigned to his fate, he was ushered away by the men in red suits, who confiscated his sidearm, and pushed him into a waiting limousine. The Director quickly followed, and the vehicle sped away.

The men sat in the car in silence, as they approached the Hotel Abbatoir. Soon they were riding the elevator to one of the top floors.... to the rooftop cafe. There, sitting at a table, was a man sipping his coffee, facing away from the approaching men.

"Do you know why you're here, Ironside?" began the Director.

Ironside said nothing, and stared off into the distance blankly. "You were part of the Insurrection. If you hadn't joined up, you wouldn't be here now. Things would have been different."

"You tried to kill me for no reason." said Ironside.

"Nothing personal," said Askthepizzaguy. "And besides, you survived, didn't you?" the Director chuckled. Ironside was not laughing.

"Ironside, I want you to sit down and have a drink with me. I have to explain myself, I feel. Let me tell you a story."

The two men sat down with the third mysterious stranger, who was staring into his drink.

"A long time ago, there was a fox living near a vast desert, with a river running through it. The fox crossed the river regularly in its travels in order to find food. Well, along comes the fox's mortal enemy, the scorpion. The scorpion said good day to the fox, and asked if the fox would be so kind as to give the scorpion a ride across the river. 'Why should I help you across? How can I trust you not to sting me, as we are mortal enemies?' asked the fox. 'Why should I sting you? If I do, we will both drown and die.' said the scorpion. So the fox thought about it and he agreed. And the fox allowed the scorpion on his back and began swimming across the river. When they reached the halfway point, the fox felt a sharp stinging sensation down its back, and realized he had been stung by the scorpion. The fox cried out 'how could you sting me? We both will drown now!' The scorpion replied, 'whether you realize it or not, we're mortal enemies. It is in my nature to kill my enemies.' And the fox and the scorpion drowned." said Askthepizzaguy.

Ironside rolled his eyes and replied that he understood the story, but that he was never the Director's mortal enemy.

"This might be true. But I know of someone who is your mortal enemy, and he happens to be a good friend of mine." the Director motioned toward the man stirring his coffee, whose face was obscured by the brim of his fedora.

Ironside peered at the man sitting across the table from him, and noticed that the man was not stirring his coffee with a spoon. When the man looked up, Ironside recoiled. "It's you.... the one I've been looking for all this time!"

The man sitting opposite just smiled as he stood up. The Director aimed a golden Luger at Ironside.

"Hoist by my own petard, Ironside? Indeed, if you had been successful I would have been the victim of my own scheming. But now, you shall become a victim of your own plans to destroy one of my own. Do you wish to do the honors, sir?" Askthepizzaguy held the golden Luger outstretched, allowing the other man to take the weapon, but he just shook his head, and lifted the red knife out of his cup of coffee, and licked the blade clean in a long, slow motion, staring at Ironside the entire time.

"Very well, do what you do best." said the Director, as he stood back to watch the carnage unfold.

The man with the red knife tossed the table out of the way and began advancing on Ironside, who had nowhere to run, with the Director's goons standing all around them. The Director wanted to see a good show, perhaps a struggle for power, one last battle between rivals.

Instead, what the Director saw was gut-wrenching. The assassin moved with such speed that it was hard to follow exactly what was happening. What the Director was certain of was that the man had no regard for human life and was extremely adept at taking it. The quick, vicious, precise cuts were meant to inflict pain, but cause a limited loss of blood. The assassin avoided all the major arteries and focused on nerve endings. Within seconds, Ironside was on the ground being cruelly butchered by the sadistic psychopath, and it wasn't a pleasant sight at all. The screams were horrifying, and the Director couldn't even bear to watch it continue.

It was senseless.... devoid of emotion or reason. The Director pulled out the Italian flag he had been saving for this occasion, and threw it over the railing to be taken away by the strong, cold wind. Taking one look back at the man with the red knife, he motioned for the goon squad to join him.

"That's enough. He's quite dead by now, I'm sure." said Askthepizzaguy.

But the groan which escaped the lips of the disfigured man caused the Director to turn back. He aimed the golden Luger at Ironside's head, and put an end to the torment. "Satisfied?" asked the pizza guy. The stranger with the red knife only nodded, licking the blood from the blade, and disappearing off into the night.

"I wonder what he'll do now..." said the Director. "Keep an eye on him, would you? Something isn't right with that one."

OOC

Night 21 orders due in:


Please send your orders to Issakhaan ONLY. Do not send them to GeneralHankerchief

Lynch Vote Tally:

Ironside: 9 (autolycus, Krill, Diana, Daveshack, nightbringer, lazy, Hero, Double A, Niklas)
abstain: 2 (beefy, DiY)

[sturmhauke]

What's really going to burn your back hairs is that DaveShack had absolutely zero protection covering him for..... I don't even know. 6, 7, 8 rounds in a row? No idea.

Eh, I think by the time I knew who he was my crew was already pretty wrecked anyway.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Eh, I think by the time I knew who he was my crew was already pretty wrecked anyway.

Your decision to lead the town remnant was a brave one but I think half the people you wanted to rely on were scum or heading in that direction.

Best moves were promoting surgeons and rogues, and trying to cut deals with anyone willing to take out my group, the lawyer, and/or myself. Even if your organization was free of spies, it still would have been a heck of a struggle. The main weapon in this game was information, and the townies were always suffering from a lack of it.

That said, your resistance and others' made the game far more interesting, and I kept half-hoping your group would be at least partly successful in its efforts.


I think if the town and the Pentangeli and the Corleone got together, they could have formed a rival superpower even stronger than the Stracchi-Cuneo.

[sturmhauke]

Even with the likes of Diana and Renata pretending to be allied with me, I only had about 10 or so people. I managed to convince Stranger to work with me eventually, but it was far too late by that point. Basically I had to take what I could get, and that wasn't much.

[Montmorency]

Is it necessary to invent aspects of Pizza's rise that mirror Hitler's, or are they self-evident?

[classical_hero]

So that means we are the dreaded SS.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Is it necessary to invent aspects of Pizza's rise that mirror Hitler's, or are they self-evident?


The methods used by various dictatorial regimes both fictional and historical are recurring themes. There's many parallels because certain methods are effective, therefore they're used often. Brutal but effective.

[Ironside]

Honestly ATPG, don't lie to yourself. You decided I was a liability and probably marked me for optional death the same moment you went for Capo.

You killed Secura for safety resons knowing that it would annoy me.

At best, you decided to kill me over XehhII, whom you knew I had to pick or decide that I wouldn't pursue my victory goals. And that had to do with someone going "it's plenty of time" to "make your final choise for tonight, since the game will end tomorrow".

And after deciding to kill me, today shows that you could never trust me enough for letting me live after that. Even if I hadn't voted for you, you would've decided that I was untrustworthy and plotting against you. Like you did today.

And just so you know, the DIY issue isn't buissness, that's simply rubbing it in. Also known as jerkness.

Of course, picking the one who betrayed you earlier with nothing to loose is a great option you know. It's not like you're going to let him live until tomorrow, that much is obvious.

TBH I'm surprised why you don't get the treasons and spite play against you. Treason is beneficial against you and spite playing only has it's benefits. The big question is rather why to trust you in the first place?

[classical_hero]

It is called a game. Not everyone can win, otherwise it would not be any fun playing.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I appreciate your sticking up for me hero di classico, but he has some legitimate concerns I'd like to address. Then I'll get into the part where everyone needs to take a chill pill.


Honestly ATPG, don't lie to yourself. You decided I was a liability and probably marked me for optional death the same moment you went for Capo.

The moment I saw that the rogues were more town-affiliated than not, incapable of going mafia, I pretty much considered them all to be a problem. An army of folks capable of killing Mades, protected by town doctors.... that's power that is out of my hands and can very easily be used against us. Which was precisely the point; way back when I had reasons to use bluffs and threats to keep even my own fellow mafia people in line, having an independent group interested in targeting mafia was an asset.

The Director's own personal army; but your role made it such that the lot of you going the criminal path together with the mafia was impossible. In the endgame, the army of rogues and the army of mades could not coexist and me being mafia meant that I'd side against that same group of rogues in favor of the mades.


You killed Secura for safety resons knowing that it would annoy me.

My family contains X number of members. Yourself, Secura, others who don't count as Clemenza and I want alive, and the doctors, exceed that number. Something has to give. By the terms of a mafia win in these circumstances, someone needed to die. Of those remaining who match that category, only you can attack us; you've already scanned enough of us where you could just attack if you wanted.


And after deciding to kill me, today shows that you could never trust me enough for letting me live after that.

I only gave you more reasons to want to turn against me after I needed to remove Secura and made the attempt on yourself for the win, losing two of my people in the process.

Now, had they lived, I maybe could have risked it and left you be, but now the numbers made it an unacceptable risk. The vote was too close for comfort and I had tried to kill you already. Trusting you after that was a leap of faith I was admittedly not prepared to make.


Even if I hadn't voted for you, you would've decided that I was untrustworthy and plotting against you. Like you did today.

On the contrary, I thought it was fairly reliable that you'd be plotting against LazyMcCrow.

One of you was going to die, that was a certainty. I didn't have room for the both of you and you had a direct motive to get rid of him.

When it came right down to it, who sided with the Director when his life was on the line? Ironside, or LazyMcCrow?

If I had to pick one of them for life, which do I pick?

The answer is obvious, and it ain't personal. It's a fairly basic mathematical calculation, remove ATPG supporter, or remove betrayed ATPG detractor?

That's an answer so obvious that I cannot believe anyone would think I'd do otherwise.


And just so you know, the DIY issue isn't buissness, that's simply rubbing it in. Also known as jerkness.

The point was to remove any further loyalty the town felt toward you, dividing you and making it more likely that a united vote between all townies and yourself and any other roles would not be happening. This round was make or break; if we lost any Clemenza or Clemenza allied, it was very possible that we could have drowned in a sea of incorruptible invulnerable doctors.


The big question is rather why to trust you in the first place?

After being forced to remove your allies due to the numbers problem and inherent risk of rogues attacking mades, you had no real love for the mafia. By role, you had no particular love for the mafia. The big question was why should I not assume you are a threat in the first place?

You have a motive to seek and destroy the Serial Killer, and that meant you were an asset who could potentially unearth a serious problem standing between the mafia and victory. And depending on who it was, let's say it was Oh!TheLastDays or Beefy or whoever, someone who wasn't voting with the mafia anyway, I would have been only too happy to see you remove a threat and be satisfied with your mafia co-conspirators in the process.

However, the serial killer turned out to be a mafia voting ally who happened to save my life at the same moment you were trying to take it.

Why to trust you over him after that? That's a question, but not a big one. If I had to pick one of you to reliably side with me in a crucial situation, I had already broken the trust between myself and you, and you had already made the decision to retaliate for it. A decision I don't blame you for and sympathize with. But it's a decision that made my choice between you and LazyMcCrow to be a no-brainer.

Jerky of me, no question. In order to get this far, I've had to leave behind a long list of former allies, and often be the one directly or indirectly involved in backstabbing them. You remember those starting mafia Dons? Yeah... obviously much better allies than the townies, but also folks in competition with one another who couldn't coexist forever. The options are to side with one or none of them, and betray or never befriend the rest.

Only just a few examples of those left behind.

You see, over the course of the game I've had friendly or better stances toward at least half the other contestants. But half the contestants were not going to be surviving this game, nor winning with us, nor winning with each other, quite frankly. It's also rather difficult to avoid if you intend to make any sort of forward progress, this betrayal business. The only way to avoid that sort of thing would be to form no political alliances whatsoever, and those sorts of folks have few allies when people come knocking at your door trying to lynch you instead of themselves, or come knocking a your door needing to murder someone, anyone, to advance the game.

It's hardly a personal matter. It's largely a selfish but necessary calculation... who can I afford to lose today? Who do I absolutely need to lose today?

Not at all different from the choices made by necessity in the previous iteration of the game, where I was fighting for the other team. Who was a risk? Who was likely scum? Who was a traitor? Who must I lose today? Who can I afford to lose today? Essentially the same choices any player invariably makes in these situations.

Nasty business this Capo. This is certainly not a game of checkers. It's a battle royale where friends plot against friends. I played it legally and in a manner not entirely unexpected for the genre, and I've still apologized repeatedly for the hurt feelings that can arise from normal play.





_________________________________





I also would like to point out that I have been openly, and quite explicitly, playing an evil scumbag character, who is not even remotely hiding the fact that he's a big fat liar, a murderous, treacherous snake, and quite frankly, trying to be the single greatest menace in the whole game. There is no fine print about it. It's in big capital letters.

Why is anyone surprised by what I'm doing anymore? THAT is the big question. And I'll certainly stop being so scummy after this *game* is over. But man, folks, I can't have been any clearer about what I am being for this game. I've said it repeatedly and in an OOC way, too.

There is no excuse anymore for not seeing this coming. I've been an openly declared scumbag since round 7, and have been backstabbing people a few at a time ever since.

There is a point where it's no longer a situation where you can look at me funny anymore.

This is now the point where you sit back, realize you've been had in a friendly game, and realize that not only have dozens of dead folks told you so, but I in fact told you so repeatedly.



Sorry for everything I've done, but it's a game and I am playing it to win and I'm not being gentle about it.

[edse]

I also would like to point out that I have been openly, and quite explicitly, playing an evil scumbag character, who is not even remotely hiding the fact that he's a big fat liar, a murderous, treacherous snake, and quite frankly, trying to be the single greatest menace in the whole game. There is no fine print about it. It's in big capital letters.

Why is anyone surprised by what I'm doing anymore? THAT is the big question. And I'll certainly stop being so scummy after this *game* is over. But man, folks, I can't have been any clearer about what I am being for this game. I've said it repeatedly and in an OOC way, too.

There is no excuse anymore for not seeing this coming. I've been an openly declared scumbag since round 7, and have been backstabbing people a few at a time ever since.

So how can you still have a family when you are backstabbing them one at the time?

Bring down Pizza before it's too late. He will not hold his word even if he promised you a win.

[classical_hero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyggY_R3jU8

Soon it will be over and we can all get back to being friends.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So how can you still have a family when you are backstabbing them one at the time?

Because all the folks I've backstabbed, I brought home and dropped their corpses on the doorstep of the Clemenza house like a loyal cat bringing home a fresh dead bird for the family.

Everyone I've killed has been for their benefit as well as my own, and they were uh.... kind of the ones assisting me in killing or lynching those folks. So we're acting as a unit.

You do realize that all the betrayal stuff applies to my Clemenza buddies as well? These folks are epic villains and you're not giving them any credit for it. Shameful!


Bring down Pizza before it's too late. He will not hold his word even if he promised you a win.

Why don't we go back to round 7 where Generalhankerchief and others said the same :daisy: thing?


The people you're trying to warn are already dead.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Betrayal? In Capo?


.....Is that legal?

:book2: *checks rule book*

[Montmorency]

You said that already.

It would have been great if you had spared Ironside and allowed him to come at you during this night. Would you have been prepared to put Nightbringer to the test?

:wacko:

[edse]

Xehn was killed because he could be the SK. His death revealed who really was the SK but instead of lynching him you lynch Ironside.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You said that already.

It would have been great if you had spared Ironside and allowed him to come at you during this night. Would you have been prepared to put Nightbringer to the test?

We could always have Renata assassinate me. I'm still waiting for her to finally toss me down the freaking shaft already.


https://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb225/askthepizzaguy/Misc/Chess/Doeeet.png


Come on Renatakin Skywalker, I've killed everything you hold dear, and I may/may not obliterate your remaining family in a vicious torrent of force lightning. My back is turned, I'm unarmed, strike me down with all of your hatred.

You know you wanna do it.

[Renata]

OK.

[classical_hero]

Because the Serial killer is our serial killer. It is not rocket science to see that.

[LazyMcCrow]

:bow:

[SisterCoyote]

SOME people need to clean out their PMs.

[Renata]

Oh? What are we discussing, SisC? :)

[SisterCoyote]

Oh, you know. Nothing in particular; it's just hard to answer a question one has been asked when the system says the other person's mailbox is full...


;D

[Renata]

Oh, so no protection on my good buddy classical hero tonight? *takes notes*

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Execute operation "Funeral Pyre".

[Ironside]

Because the Serial killer is our serial killer. It is not rocket science to see that.

Lol, he did only kill one of your members and mess up a kill on Chaotix. Totally your guy, living on ATPG's mercy.

Anyway, he's saved to get you a nice recruitment hit for tonight, so it won't matter soon anyway.

[SisterCoyote]

Oh, so no protection on my good buddy classical hero tonight? *takes notes*

:-) I like that there are assumptions being made, here.

[LazyMcCrow]

Lol, he did only kill one of your members and mess up a kill on Chaotix. Totally your guy, living on ATPG's mercy.

Anyway, he's saved to get you a nice recruitment hit for tonight, so it won't matter soon anyway.

After what happened to you - who would be surprised?

[Ironside]

After what happened to you - who would be surprised?

Indeed. Well played in general btw, took us long time and a lot of effort to track you down. :bow:

Two questions:

Was the scan on you last night messed with in any way? Had to be hell to track you down as a single rogue (the game setup) otherwise.

Way back on night 8, did you pull out on the vig on purpose because DaveShack looked so uncertain if he would do it or not? Assuming Daveshack was the drop out was my big mistake in tracking you down. Depending on the answer of the first question, I'm not sure how much it would matter though, since it would've required multiple scans on you to be certain.

[seireikhaan]

Night's over, no more orders. Probably an hour or two for processing.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Execute order..... 67?

[seireikhaan]

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
...Mark 8:35-37


Night Twenty One -- The Streets of Fatlington


Askthepizzaguy sat reclined in his comfortable chair, high up on the top floor of the Hotel Abattoir. It had a lovely balcony which held a view of the boardwalk and shops. Tonight, he was feeling like staying inside, however. He held a glass of scotch in his right hand, swirling it just slightly between drinks while flipping through the most recent newspaper. He wasn’t surprised to hear a knock on the door.

“Please, come in!” he commanded . The doorknob swiveled for a second, and a woman opened the door. She gave him a slightly amused look.

“Nice place you got here, Don Clemenza. Pity if something were to happen to it.”

Askthepizzaguy reached for the big red button to call in the goons, before remembering he was no longer in the director’s chair. He glanced at the door.

“Oh, looking for your Mades? Never mind them. They’re with me now. I took your advice, showed ‘em some leg.”

Askthepizzaguy looked pointedly at his visitor, who was wearing a long wool coat, men’s pinstriped trousers and, yes, sensible shoes.

“So to speak. Worried yet?” The visitor pulled out a silver cigarette case and offered one to the former Director.

“No.” He took the proffered cigarette, and accepted a light. “I’m calling your bluff.”

“Well, it is a bluff, of course. You know how these things go.” The visitor smoked for a moment, frowning. “I am de-fanged. Your gangsters knew it.” She sighed heavily. “Can I ask you a favor?”

“Anything.”

"But if you don't like it, you'll lie."

"I am what I am."

"Yes." The visitor leaned in close. "I want a good death, Saucy Slice. An honorable one, as befits a true daughter of Fatlington. Capisce?"

"Yes."

"Very well. My car is waiting, and one more night on the beach. It'll be just me with the MaiTais, this time, but that's as it should be. I should go." She took a last drag of her cigarette.

A twinge of wariness ... "Just you?"

"Just me, Don Clemenza." She dropped the cigarette to the floor and stomped it out. Only when her hands came back up to eye level, did he notice the Derringer -- the old Don's gun, with its "Seward's Folly" engraving and "Corleone" scratched into the grip. She fired.

…

Askthepizzaguy chuckled for a few seconds. “I knew I had a good feeling about tonight. I’m a ladies man, you see? And Lady Luck, she just has a big old crush on me, just knew it. Maybe you should check that old gun into a weapon smith before toting it around, eh?” His visitor breathed a sigh. She’d double checked the damned thing before leaving, and still it found a way to misfire.

“Well, I guess I’ll see you tomorrow, then, Don. Do remember that favor?” Sighing once again, she pulled another cigarette from the case, giving it a light as she departed the door.


Meanwhile, across town, Autolycus was enjoying the relatively calm night out on his own porch. He was sitting on a white rocking chair, eyes closed, enjoying the quiet, occasionally sipping a glass of tea. The only sound was that of the occasional vehicle slowly weaving down the street. After a few moments, the sound of a vehicle failed to halt. Instead, the gentle hum of the motor kept at a constant volume. He peaked his eyes open. Two gentlemen were helping themselves out. Each wore a sharp suit and tie.

Auto simply smiled a bit. He was at peace with the world. If this was his time, perhaps that was just it. He closed his eyes again, enjoying the sway of his chair. He could hear their footsteps slowly approaching. Oddly, it seemed that there were far more footsteps than there should be. He peeked his right eye open, and saw a small entourage of four folks approaching from the other side. Each was armed with a Beretta pistol. The four silently aimed their weapons at the two men standing in front of the car. Autolycus simply shut his eyes again, and continued to rock back and forth. No words were exchanged in front of him. But he could hear footsteps. Slowly, it seemed the larger of the two groups were distancing themselves. He heard two car doors open.

BAM!

In spite of his calm, instinct shot Autolycus’ eyes shot open. The man standing next to the passenger side door collapsed in a heap. A small fountain of blood spewed from his right collarbone, just next to his neck. The larger group panicked, looking at each other confused. They fled immediately on foot. Likewise panicked, the driver hopped back in and gunned the vehicle out, leaving his partner behind. Autolycus numbly walked up to the sidewalk, where the body lay face down in a pool of blood. Gently peeking around, Autolycus couldn’t see where the shot was fired from. Still, he mustered the courage o flip the body over. Hero di Classico stared back with vacant eyes. Shaking his head, Autolycus headed back to give Mercy the news.


9:04AM, Friday, 18 November 1951
The Executive Meeting Room (Small Ballroom)
Fatlington Convention Center
Fatlington, New Jersey


"That's actually it," the commissioner finished. "We had another strong night- just one death, and one that was asking for it, it would seem. Now, onto the post mortem results, as usual. First off, your lynch choice, Scottishranger, was the Don of one of Fatlington's families. As for the night casualties; they all are can be put into basically two categories. Tiaexz, Jarema, and Neri were all mades in the service of mafia families. Meanwhile, Bsmith, white eyes, and Xehh II were all unaffiliated folks with some shady ties. We're not sure if they were helping the mafia or not, but they seemed to be off on their own direction, if nothing else. Anyways, that about sums it up. It was a solid night for us, but I'm sure there's still a long ways to go. Director?" The commissioner looked to the newly minted Director Seon, offering the gavel. With gusto, Seon officially opened his first day as Director with a bang.


OOC

Day Twenty Two begins. You are voting to lynch. Phase ends:



Attacked = 65: Askthepizzaguy (n1, n2, n4, n5, n8, n21), Raskolnikov (n1), Slash and earn (n1, n6), slysnake (n1, n3), Earthling (n1), a completely inoffensive name (n2), Master Necromanver (n2), Cahoma (n2), El Barto (n2), Montmorency (n2, n4), Chaotix (n2, n3, n11, n12, n19), taillesskangaru (n3), Secura (n3), Ameranth (n3), Craterus (n3), Cecil XIX (n3, n6), johnhughthom (n4), Ishmael (n4), Drunk Clown (n4, n5), Psychonaut (n5), Suburban Plankton (n4), Sasaki Kojiro (n4), scottishranger (n4, n10), edse (n5), Erebus (n5, n6, n15), Diana Abnoba (n6, n10), J.D. (n6), Zack (n6), Camikaze (n7), Hero di Classico (n7), Diamondeye (n7, n9), guiri (n8), Khazaar (n8, n9, n11), Riedquat (n8), robbiecon (n8), Scienter (n8 x2), sturmhauke (n8), Jarema (n9), Oh! TheLastDays! (n10, n17, n18), qlyphz (n10, n12), Psychonaut (n11), Crazed Rabbit (n12), Erebus (n12), BillMC (n12), Secura (n13), Beefy (n13), white eyes (n13), B_Ray (n14), Renata (n14, n15), Tiaexz (n14), Kennigit (n15), gibsons (n15), Believer (n16), Death is Yonder (n16, n20), shlin28 (n16), Seon (n17), hero di classico (n18), autolycus (n19, n21), Ironside (n19)

Wounded = 22: Slysnake (n1, n3), Lord Brennus (n3), Tratorix (n4), edse (n5), Erebus (n6), Psychonaut (n6), Choxorn (n7), dcmort93 (n7), Zack (n7), guiri (n8), Monk (n8), Sasaki (n9), Lewwyn (N11), Neri (N11), Scottishranger (n13, n18), Sturmhauke (n13), BillMC (n14), The Stranger (n14), Winston Hughes (n14), Renata (n18)

Killed = 76: Captain Black Adder [townie] (n1), Pharoah [townie] (n2), Moros [luca] (n2), ELITEWARMAN8GINGYBREADMENMILK [townie] (n2), TinCow [detective] (n3), Xenoneb [townie] (n3), El Barto [detective] (n3), Arjos [FBI chief] (n3), Ameranth [wiseguy] (n4), Lord Winter [wiseguy] (n4), Suburban Plankton [detective] (n5), slysnake [townie] (n5), Lord Brennus [townie] (n5), Bow-wow-wow [townie] (n5), ByzantineKnight [townie] (n6), Kagemusha [serial killer] (n6), Tratorix [FBI] (n6), Raskolnikov [wiseguy] (n6), Nictel [wiseguy] (n6), J.D. [wiseguy] (n6), Visorslash [communist leader] (n7), Cecil XIX [townie] (n7), Drunk Clown [luca] (n7), Johnhughthom [wiseguy] (n7), Jolt [Made] (n7), Romanic [wiseguy] (n7), fubbleskag [doctor] (n8), Ibn-Khaldun [townie] (n8), Memnon [townie] (n8), robbiecon [townie] (n8), Andres [Special Agent] (n8), Camikaze [Made] (n8), Frozen in Ice [wiseguy] (n8), woad&fangs [townie] (n9), Zack [townie] (n9), Zim [Luca] (n9), Choxorn [townie] (n9), dcmort93 [townie] (n9), Diamondeye [wiseguy] (n10),
AggonyKing [townie] (n10), God Emperor [made] (n10), Skotsko [made] (n10), slash and earn [townie] (n10), thefluffyone93 [rogue detective] (n10), Craterus [townie] (n11), Peasant Phill [Don] (n11), Sasaki [Don] (n11), ULC [townie] (n11), Khazaar [townie] (n12), Johhog [Wiseguy] (n12), qlyphz [townie] (n12), Lewwyn [made] (n13), Monk [townie] (n13), Yaropolk [townie] (n13), Cahoma [Luca] (n14), guiri [townie] (n14), Psychonaut [detective] (n14), Scienter [Made] (n14), B_Ray [townie] (n16), gnarlycharlie [Don] (n16), Sigurd [communist recruit] (n16), Sprig [Made] (n16), Clitsome [communist] (n17), fyremarble [don] (n17), gibsonsg91921 [luca] (n17), Winston Hughes [made] (n17), Backwards Logic [Made] (n18), Believer [FBI] (n18), GamezRule [don] (n18), kennigit [Made] (n18), Secura [rogue] (n18), Bsmith [wiseguy] (n19), Jarema [made] (n19), Neri [made] (n19), Tiaexz [made] (n19), White eyes [wiseguy] (n19), Xehh II [wiseguy] (n19), Hero Di Classico (n21)


Lynched = 21: Earthling [townie] (d2), a completely inoffensive name [townie] (d3), Subotan [wiseguy] (d3), Major Robert Dump [wiseguy] (d4), Ishmael [communist] (d5), Montmorency [wiseguy] (d6), landlubber [Made] (d8), Captain Blackadder [townie] (d9), Riedquat [townie] (d10), Edse [surgeon] (d11), Populus Romanus [surgeon] (d12), Crazed Rabbit [made] (d13), Sturmhauke (d15) [townie], The Stranger (d15) [rogue], BillMC [detective] (d16), Erebus (d17) [townie], shlin28 [townie] (d18), Scottishranger [don] (d19), Chaotix (d20), Ironside (d21)

Wogged = 5: bestrfcplayer (n6), cpdwane [townie] (n4), Master Necromanver [Don] (n4), taillesskangaru [townie] (n4), Silver Jan (d16)

Added: Autolycus (d4)

Active (15):

Askthepizzaguy, Autolycus, Beefy187, DaveShack, Death is yonder, Diana Abnoba, Double A, Krill, LazyMcCrow, Nightbringer, Niklas, O!TheLastDays!, Renata, Seon, SisterCoyote

[Populus Romanus]

Hail Director Seon!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Death is yonder

Sorry Renata, I know that would have been delicious, but no.... I'd rather not die like a punk after all that. :wink:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Actually no, changed my mind.

I think this is the better path. We'll get you the lynch, and then we're good to go.

Unvote, vote: Renata

[Nightbringer]

Vote:Renata

Because I need to make my natural tendencies pay!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM


Well, I suppose I have been doing that, but the more pain the better!

[Diana Abnoba]

Vote: Renata sorry my friend, but it is time for you to go now.

[classical_hero]

That was not part of the plan, me dying, but at least my team still wins.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That was not part of the plan, me dying, but at least my team still wins.

Wasn't part of my plan either. 1:6 chance of getting hurt? I wonder if those dice are loaded at this point.

That said, it's all over but the crying, and I'm ready to boat this bass whenever you guys are.

[Krill]

vote: Renata

Nice try, that.

[Renata]

Had to do it. :bow:

[LazyMcCrow]

That was not part of the plan, me dying, but at least my team still wins.

I can't believe I just left you on the pavement and drove off. :embarassed:

[LazyMcCrow]

vote: Renata

Sorry not have had the opportunity to be part of your family too :bow:

[autolycus]

vote: Renata

[SisterCoyote]

vote: Renata

[Beefy187]

I don't know if this will mean anything.

But anyone who votes for Death is Yonder will get my vote.
Rawr etc etc.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Quick word of warning: I'm an idiot and leave things to do until the very last possible minute. Because of this I may be passed out from exhaustion when the lynch period ends tomorrow. Expect delays. :sweatdrop:

[Nightbringer]

don't worry about it. You guys are quite the heroes for jumping in and saving this game. It would be unfair of us to expect perfection. :)

[Askthepizzaguy]

I second that emotion.

Generalhankerchief and issaikhaan, you got my vote for cohosts of the year. This game was a beast to play, hosting it is 10 times harder.

[Krill]

don't worry about it. You guys are quite the heroes for jumping in and saving this game. It would be unfair of us to expect perfection. :)


I second that emotion.

Generalhankerchief and issaikhaan, you got my vote for cohosts of the year. This game was a beast to play, hosting it is 10 times harder.

Agreed. :juggle2:

[Double A]

Quick word of warning: I'm an idiot and leave things to do until the very last possible minute. Because of this I may be passed out from exhaustion when the lynch period ends tomorrow. Expect delays. :sweatdrop:

https://i.imgur.com/lomJV.png (http://imgur.com/lomJV)
We are same.

Good luck with your procrastination. Take your time, we can wait.

[Death is yonder]

We definitely understand and it would be churlish of us to complain when you are doing a volunteer service for us absolutely free and out of your own spare time too :bow:

Vote: Abstain

[GeneralHankerchief]

Voting closed as of a while ago.

Going 27 hours without sleep and counting, give me a bit.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Please send your orders to GeneralHankerchief ONLY. Do not send them to khaan.

"O' beautiful, for spacious skies
But now those skies are threatening
They're beating plowshares into swords
For this tired old man that we elected king
Armchair warriors often fail
And we've been poisoned by thse fairy tales
The lawyers clean up all the details
Since daddy had to lie

But I know a place where we can go
And wash away this sin
We'll sit and watch the clouds toll by
And the tall grass waze in the wind
Just lay your head back on the ground
And let your hair spill all around me
Offer up your best defense
But this is the end
This is the end of the innocence"
...The End of the Innocence
...Don Henley


Sunset, 6:59PM, Saturday 18 November 1951
Arrivederci Public Beach
Fatlington, New Jersey



Renata didn't bother attending the meeting. There was little point to these meetings anymore... the mafia seemed to own everything in town, and there was nothing further to be said, less still to be voted on. So, she reclined in her folding chair, sipping mai tais. Expecting company, she didn't even look up when a man wearing sandals and a big Hawaiian shirt and dark sunglasses walked up to her, holding a briefcase.

"Where's your goon squad?" asked Renata.

-"I'm retired. There's no need for any of that anymore. I'm thinking of taking some time off, spending a lot of it with the family."

"Where's your gun?"

-"I never really cared for guns. In this business you use what tools you have. Personally, I prefer things with a bit more flair and creativity."

"Let's get on with it." Renata said, as she took another sip.

-"Get on with what? What are you talking about?"

"You're obviously here to kill me. While I find this conversation fascinating, I'd prefer to end it with dignity."

-"I'm not here to kill you. Remember, I'm not the Director anymore. That's someone else's job."

"So what are you here for?"

-"I wanted to discuss family matters. This fighting needs to stop. Enough people have died already."

"You mean, you've killed enough people?"

-"However you want to look at it. The point is, we've done what we needed to. Anything further is bad for business."

Renata finished her mai tai and kept staring off into the sunset. "Maybe you should have thought of that before you killed my friends."

-"Hey, they were always loyal to you. They never would have come and worked for a guy like me."

"No, of course not. They had integrity and decency."

-"I'm really not such a bad guy, once you get to know me. They would have been just fine, working for me."

"Or dead."

-"So you'd rather die than walk away from them, even now?"

"Absolutely. Friends don't betray friends."

-"Even dead friends?"

"Especially dead friends."

-"In this business you can't really afford to have friends. You gotta do what's necessary. If you're a businessman, you have to make business decisions. You let people get too close, they can manipulate you into losing everything."

"You mean like you did?"

Askthepizzaguy nodded. "It's a tough business. You have to kill to stay alive. Gotta leave people behind the moment they start saying things they shouldn't, or making plans that don't include you. It's a filthy game, a dirty way to make a living. But you know, my son and daughter don't need to know where the money comes from. They just need to have a safe roof over their head. And I make sure that they have everything that they need, and I make sure it is possible that they have anything they could ever want."

Renata smiled faintly. "I understand that sentiment."

-"Do you also understand then, that although a businessman is ruthless, he's ruthless for a purpose? That there's more to life than just the money? That he's got values, and those values are to place the good of the Family above all other concerns?"

"Oh, I understand those values. Look at me, Clemenza. I've risked everything for the good of my family, for all the good it did for them. My last act on this Earth should have been to kill you for what you've done to them."

-"Do you still have that Derringer?"

"Here, take it. Useless anyway."

-"No, you see... the most common problem with the Derringer is its likelihood of a misfire. You have to wait with the gun pointed in a safe direction, then carefully remove the magazine, extract any misfired cartridge, then check to see if there is anything obstructing it. I see here that the firing mechanism is slightly misaligned. You shouldn't throw away a gun like this, its small size makes it perfect for concealing and using unexpectedly."

"Yeah, I got that part. I did try to kill you with it."

-"There we are. Good as new. Should work fine now." said Askthepizzaguy, as he handed her back the Derringer. Renata accepted the weapon cautiously, sitting in disbelief that the former Director was handing her the murder weapon. But not questioning why, she thought about it for two seconds, and then lifted the weapon and fired.


Askthepizzaguy held up his hand, showing Renata. "I of course removed the bullet. I, for one, intend to make it off this beach in one piece. Have a lovely rest of your evening." The man turned and walked back up to the boardwalk, where he stopped to grab a slice of pizza at the corner shop. Renata watched him carefully, as she reached down into her belongings and found another bullet for her gun.

Time to finish the job...

That's when she saw the new Director walking towards her, alone. Whatever he was planning, it could wait. She lifted the Derringer and addressed the newcomers. "Listen up, I'm going to go kill Don Clemenza, since none of you have the courage to do so. If you want to try and stop me, it's your funeral."

“Oh, do try and shoot me,” the Director said. “Try and aim for the head, I’m wearing a flak jacket.”

Renata’s gun wavered, her resolve suddenly weakening. “What?” she asked.

The director shrugged. “Just observed that people tend to drop their guns in confusion when I say that. Then I don’t have to do this,”

Director snapped his fingers. A gunshot, and the gun was blown out of Renata’s hands. “Now that we are all behaving like polite friends, let’s sit down and discuss matters, shall we? I brought tea. And crackers.”

As Renata sat numbly back on the chair, the director pulled another one in front of it. “Here, have a drink,” he said, producing a tea cup seemingly out of nowhere and pouring warm black tea from it. He tossed a packet of crackers next to it.”

“Good, isn’t it?” the Director said as Renata sipped from the cup. “Well, it better be because that’s the last tea that you will ever be having. There is no sense to knocking oneself out with alcohol before the end. If I die, I want to see it coming.”

“So you are still carrying out Clemenza's wishes? You ever try thinking for yourselves? Just give me five minutes. I'll kill the Pizza man or die trying. Won't that fulfill the Committee's wishes beyond their wildest dreams?" Renata spat.

The director shrugged. “Many people’s first impulse when fighting against a mega-entity such as the mafia is to aim for the head. Boom! Headshot!” Director chuckled. “No. Killing the head will not do anything. Just another idiot will come by and take his or her place. May make the place a bit more interesting, though, which is always nice.”

Director sighed as he leaned back on the chair. “Can you believe it?” he said, laughing. “Hundreds of people in this city, dead! And it all happened in a time period of 3 weeks. The rest of the people in this city is fleeing or is going to die pretty soon. It’s much quieter here now. That’s nice too. No, I don't think I'll let you kill the pizza man.”

Renata groaned in frustration. “So what, is this the time you kill me? What are you going to do, dip me in acid? Is the tea I just drank filled with laxatives that will make me fart out my own intestines? Is it going to make my head explode? Or maybe you are going to feed me to your pet octopus?”

“I was thinking…” the director said. “Of just shooting you,” he pulled out a small pistol. A revolver.

Renata tilted her head to the side. Then she burst into laughter.

“What,” the director said, smiling. “What were you expecting from Pizza and me, a dance? Maybe a night out with a flash of the dagger at the end?”

“That’s lame!” she said. “What, are you so lacking in-“

The director threw the gun into her hands. Her eyes widened as she examined it. It was not a trick gun, the weight was just about right. She opened the cartridges to see that it was, indeed, a fully loaded weapon.

Director stood up, picking up the briefcase on the side in the process. “You see,” the director said. “Every lynch so far has gone entirely according to whatever the director was planning on. Introduce a little uncertainty, I say. Whatever you do with that revolver is entirely up to you, but you are not leaving this house. If you do, teams of snipers I set up will kill you. Or would they? Maybe they’ll miss. Maybe I am lying. Of course, they are going to kill you if you kill me. I heard that bleeding out from a sniper’s bullet is a painful way to go.”

“Damn you,” Renata said.

“I get that a lot,” the Director said, nonchalant. He slung the briefcase over his shoulders and walked away from the house towards the docks. As he did so, he heard a single gunshot from a distance, although he was unsure whether or not it was sniper fire or a sound from a muffled revolver. He shrugged and threw the briefcase into the sea and walked away, which quickly turned into a mad dash for safety when the briefcase exploded, sending columns of water and wet sand everywhere and began breaking apart the dock.




"Fare well, Donna Corleone. I hope wherever you are now, it's a far, far better place. Riposa in pace, bellissima."

Don Clemenza took a look at the new Director, watching him trudge toward his car, dripping wet and covered in sand. The Director was holding yet another pistol in his hands.

“I saw you ruin my game,” Don Clemenza said. Director smirked. “It’s as much as mine as it is yours.” The Director leveled the pistol against the Don.

“You can’t be serious,” Don said simply.

“Maybe I just don’t care,” Director said with the smirk turning into an insane grin. He wiped away salty water dripping into his eyes with the left hand. “It’s a game, after all.” He pulled the trigger.

*BANG!* said the flag that emerged out of the gun. Director waved the gun around innocuously. “I was just kidding.”

“Funny,” the Don said.

“More drinks?” the waiter said, coming out of the café. Director pointed the gun at the waiter and pulled the trigger again. The gunpowder hidden behind the flag detonated, launching the flag, and it’s specially sharpened tip, out of the barrel and into the waiter’s heart.

“No, I was not,” the Director continued. “Well, see yah tomorrow, man. Wet clothes are damn heavy. I’ll be back with a tank next time.”

Askthepizzaguy let out a small chuckle as he saw the Director walk away. He threw a wad of money to the body of the waiter.

“Keep the change.”


OOC

Night Twenty Two orders are due:
Night Twenty Two Concluded

Please send your orders to GeneralHankerchief ONLY. Do not send them to khaan.


Lynch vote tally:

Renata: enough

[Renata]

Coulda been worse.

[Seon]

Yes, I could have fed you to my giant octopus, including all the horror that comes with being eaten by a giant tentacled monster.

[Askthepizzaguy]

My writeup was far better. You had to do a little editing for continuity, if you were going to change the ending.

Where did the house come from? And were there goons with the director or not? You gotta make the story agree with itself.

[Montmorency]

I'm not quite sure how she even died. Was it a bullet wound, or the bomb in the briefcase?

[Seon]

To be fair, I was working on the other story when I got the call. I meshed them together because, well, it was nice. Apparently spending only 30 minutes on meshing them together was a bad idea.

So you can still see the seams, fine. No need to worry. Renata's still dead from a gunshot wound.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm not quite sure how she even died. Was it a bullet wound, or the bomb in the briefcase?


In my version, the suitcase kills her. And it also makes sense. :laugh4:

[Seon]

Unfortunately I am not a supervillain and thusly have no power over passage of time, which, if I did, I would surely have used to go back in time to fix some continuity problems (along with a plethora of other errors) that I missed fixing the first time around. That's what one gets when trying to mesh one writeup with the other, I suppose.

Anyways, it's about time for this game to end, no? Well, I believe that it is quite time for the Director to high-tail it out of this city, along with a massive over-seas bank account gathered by selling off assets of the dead. :tongue:

[Nightbringer]

I enjoyed reading the write-up.

In any case, do we get to have a party now, or do we still have uninvited guests?

[classical_hero]

There is one more uninvited guest here, so you will have to get rid of him, but everything is taken care of an the end is nigh.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The question is who gets the boot.

It's been discussed, I mean O!TLD is inactive and has been for a while, so giving the commies a mercy killing was the first option.

Of the doctors, Beefy's abstains/no-votes on critical rounds the townies could have used his vote, plus I don't think he has his five protects anyway, makes him another candidate.

Death is yonder for being a big old pain in my buttocks. But that's actually a good thing, so... maybe he gets spared.



Or you guys could always lynch me and stuff.

[Visor]

I'm replacing TLD.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just in case anyone is curious, here's the ending I wrote. Everything else should be the same.

-"Do you still have that Derringer?"

"Here, take it. Useless anyway."

-"No, you see... the most common problem with the Derringer is its likelihood of a misfire. You have to wait with the gun pointed in a safe direction, then carefully remove the magazine, extract any misfired cartridge, then check to see if there is anything obstructing it. I see here that the firing mechanism is slightly misaligned. You shouldn't throw away a gun like this, its small size makes it perfect for concealing and using unexpectedly."

"Yeah, I got that part. I did try to kill you with it."

-"There we are. Good as new. Should work fine now." said Askthepizzaguy, as he handed her back the Derringer. Renata accepted the weapon cautiously, sitting in disbelief that the former Director was handing her the murder weapon. But not questioning why, she thought about it for two seconds, and then lifted the weapon and fired.


Askthepizzaguy held up his hand, showing Renata. "I of course removed the bullet. I, for one, intend to make it off this beach in one piece. Have a lovely rest of your evening." The man turned and walked back up to the boardwalk, where he stopped to grab a slice of pizza at the corner shop. Renata watched him carefully, as she reached down into her belongings and found another bullet for her gun.

Time to finish the job...

That's when she saw the new Director walking towards her, with his squad of goons. Whatever they were planning, it could wait. She lifted the Derringer and addressed the newcomers. "Listen up, I'm going to go kill Don Clemenza, since none of you have the courage to do so. If you want to try and stop me, it's your funeral." The Director, Seon, held up his hand, indicating to the goons not to open fire. They surrounded the chair, weapons pointed directly at the day's lynchee.

Seon began his practiced speech. "You've been declared guilty by the Committee of Vigilance, and I'm authorized to...."


"Authorized to what? Carry out Clemenza's wishes? You ever try thinking for yourselves? Just give me five minutes. I'll kill the Pizza man or die trying. Won't that fulfill the Committee's wishes beyond their wildest dreams?"

Seon thought about it for a moment, and then looked at Renata strangely.

"Where'd you get that briefcase?" he asked.


"What briefcase?" asked Renata.

Seon didn't bother to respond, he just bolted toward the ocean, as fast as he could run. Even his goon squad wondered what was happening. They just kept their guns pointed at Renata. She looked down and saw the unfamiliar briefcase, and it dawned on her.




"Pizza..."





She lifted the Derringer in one final act of defiance, and began squeezing the trigger, prompting one of the goons to react instinctively and shoot the Derringer out of her hands. She cursed at them in Italian, and then again in French, and then once again in English. Askthepizzaguy waved at them from a safe distance, as he munched on his snack.

The explosion killed every single one of the Director's hired goons, and it burned so hot that the particular section of sandy beach they were standing on turned into glass. The blast tore a huge hole in the ground, and sent tiny bits of coarse sand in every direction, with enough speed and force to kill someone caught in the blast radius.

Seon managed to dive into the cold ocean water, sparing his life.

"Fare well, Donna Corleone. I hope wherever you are now, it's a far, far better place. Riposa in pace, bellissima."

Don Clemenza took a look at the new Director, watching him trudge toward his car, dripping wet and covered in sand.

"I see you're taking to your new assignment with much enthusiasm, Mister Director. I love how you just dove right in."

Seon looked at him coldly. "I do have a tank, you know" warned Seon.

"Yes, I know. I look forward to seeing it in action, if you can catch me in such a slow and bulky vehicle." said Askthepizzaguy. He stepped into his Jaguar and sped off into the night.

They could always lynch him tomorrow...

[Visor]

I enjoyed reading the write-up.

In any case, do we get to have a party now, or do we still have uninvited guests?

I thought Seon did a good job as well.

[Double A]

I'm replacing TLD.

Isn't "Visorslash is always scum, even when he's not," the one and only TWC Mafia rule?

[classical_hero]

I am a new man, due to my death.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Night has ended, no more orders will be accepted.

[GeneralHankerchief]

"What have I become?
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know
Goes away in the end
You could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt"
...Hurt
...Trent Reznor


Night Twenty Two -- The Streets of Fatlington


It was raining in Fatlington, a hard, cold November downpour that ended all thoughts of nighttime excursions. There may have been something icier mixed in. Sleet, maybe. Nobody knew. Nobody cared.


Death is yonder sat inside his house, pondering. He had his gun nearby but didn't think he'd need it. He wasn't sure if this was a good thing or not.

Keeping him company were SisterCoyote and Beefy187. They were all that remained of their little clique, the last remaining do-gooders in Fatlington. They would stay together and fight to the end. And yet... what was the point? They had failed. There mission was to keep the Committee of Vigilance strong. They knew they had failed two weeks ago.

"Maybe they'll come," SisterCoyote said. "Maybe we'll be able to take out one more of their guys."

"What's the point?" DiY responded. "They outnumber us. Even with you guys here, if they wanted to overwhelm us, they could easily do so. They leave us be because we're no threat to them. What are we going to do, actually attack them? We're not murderers. They control the numbers on the Committee, we can't touch them there. They leave us alone because we're just not important enough to kill." He sunk deeper into his misery.

"We saved a few people. We tried to make a difference. We're going to be recognized by the AMA for our medical skills." Now Beefy chimed in.

"Medals to put up on our walls. Medals to display to people that never visit. Our friends are dead. Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all time, playing right now up in Boston. You think he's happy with his statistics? No, and you know why? Because the Red Sox will never win the World Series, and he knows it. When you don't win the ultimate prize, the rest of it is meaningless."

The door knocked twice, breaking the uneasy silence that fell over the group. It was about as friendly and polite as a knock could be. Beefy went to answer the door, DiY and SisterCoyote both reaching for their guns.

It wasn't an attacker. It was Oh! TheLastDays!, dripping wet from the rain. "I'm not armed," he said, opening up all of his pockets. "Can I speak to DiY alone, please?"

DiY nodded. "Guys, go get yourselves something to drink. TLD won't kill me."

Without prompting, TLD sat down and began his pitch. "You're done here in Fatlington," he said. "So am I. No time like the present to move on."

"On? Where?"

"To greener pastures. Russia, eventually."

DiY sat in his chair, shocked. "You're-?"

"A Communist, yes. I'm actually a nuclear scientist who's looking to formally defect to the Soviets. When you've seen as much as I have, you tend to get disenchanted with things here. This mess in Fatlington only confirms it in my mind. I was told there was a communist cell operating in this town who would help extricate my to Russia. I made contact with them... but then they died. So now I need to find some other route. My plan is to hop around, find another cell - possibly in New York - and then go from there. Do you want to come with me? We could work together, and I know you're as eager to put this place behind you as I am. This kind of thing doesn't happen in Russia, you know. There, it's a much more ordered, ideal society. What do you say?"

DiY sighed. It sounded good, it really did. And the man did have some Communist sympathies. But...

"I don't know," he said. The man sounded exhausted. "I feel like a die just rolled in my head and a number came up that wasn't good for you. I'm not really ready to do anything right now. Maybe there's still something I can do here."

"There isn't, and you know it! We failed, all of us. But over in Russia, you can make a difference! Comrade Stalin will reward you for your medical expertise. You'll become a Hero of the Soviet Union, properly recognized for your efforts on a greater scale."

"In another time, I might agree with you," DiY said. "But not now. Now, I'm just... tired. Godspeed, though."

Seeing that his case was pointless, TLD bowed, exited the house, and began driving off to points unknown. His time in Fatlington was done. Hopefully his time in America would soon draw to a close as well.

Meanwhile, Death is yonder, SisterCoyote, and Beefy, spent the remainder of the night in silence, waiting for an attack that would never come.


Killing... killing was fun. Killing was good. Killing was healthy. Killing was a natural part of life. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. He was refertilizing the earth. What was a meager human life when all of Mother Nature benefited?

This was one of LazyMcCrow's many justifications for murder. They changed from night to night, week to week. Sometimes he didn't even need one. Rationing really didn't matter. Killing did. Killing was enough. And yet...

Now there was to be no more killing. He had been able to do it easily enough under the watchful eye of the Fatlington Police Department, that was true. But now the FPD was no longer in charge. And the only people left to kill were the ring of doctors, who would all save each other, and the Clemenza faction, who would immediately enact terrible retribution on him. That was no fun.

Surely, there was no work left to be done in Fatlington. It had exhausted its potential. With this in mind, Lazy went back over his body of work during the brief time in the Shore town. A kill here and there. A ton of work done with the various mafia factions, but there was no fun in that. He never got to use his red knife, never really got to savor any of the kills. Those didn't count.

Ignoring the number of mafia-related kills, Lazy went back over the totals. The number was depressingly low. The Committee of Vigilance started out numbering 117. That was a lot of prime targets. It had been active for three full weeks, quite a long time. And yet Lazy had only managed to drop three or four of that 117 during those three weeks. So depressing, really. There was such promise. Fatlington was every serial killer's dream. And he had only managed to take out three or four people. Hell, other serial killers sometimes killed that many people in that period of time under normal conditions.

And now the window of opportunity had closed. Lazy would drive off in the morning, looking for a place to hunt. He still lived, but he knew that he would never get a better chance to practice his craft than the one he had just squandered. He hoped the continued killing would drown out his brain's regrets in the future, but he wasn't so sure.


At the penthouse of the Hotel Abbatoir...

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/Bu33ASyD4o0?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/Bu33ASyD4o0?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="25"></object>

Don Clemenza, Askthepizzaguy, sat in his thronelike chair, staring out at the gray expanse of the town of Fatlington. He could see nothing. All of it was blocked by the clouds and the rain and the darkness. Still he stared. There was nothing to see, however, no matter how hard he looked. Even the lights on the city streets far below were few and far between.

Why wouldn't they be? The town had been gutted in the past three weeks. Fatlington had the highest murder rate in the country now, mostly thanks to his work. It wasn't even close. Even New York didn't have the raw amount of killings that Fatlington did this year, and The City had millions more people. If you examined the numbers on a murders per capita basis, they were even more skewed in Fatlington's "favor".

Fatlington had now seen four outbreaks of killings since 1947, two in 1951 alone. It had become famous nationwide for the sheer amount of murders and gang activity it had seen. The local politicians had tried to shun the town's reputation of being a gangster's haven. They didn't do well at it. Several savvy entrepreneurs had gone the opposite route of opening up mafia-themed businesses in an effort to capitalize on the town's new reputation. These were far more successful - until the killings started again.

Fatlington's tourism revenue had cratered since 1947, dropping 42% in a mere four years. 1952's numbers were projected to be even worse, and this was before the new outbreak of murders in October and November. The Committee of Vigilance was starting to receive unwanted attention for its entire existence, most notably its rampant corruption, potential extralegal practices, and most notably its draconian justice procedures, with one outside observer calling it "something that has been completely unseen in Western civilization for over a millennium."

The town's population had dropped as well. A big part of it was from the murders, of course, but an even bigger part was due to its effects. Nobody wanted to be next. Sure, the people in the Committee of Vigilance were the primary targets, but there was also the collateral damage from the murders. People were afraid to go outside anymore. They were afraid to patronize the places they had been going to for years in the fear that errant gunfire would claim their lives as well. Many families moved away. Nobody wanted to raise their kids in this environment.

Businesses were particularly feeling the effects. Their clientele was dropping massively. Murders. People afraid to go out. People outright leaving Fatlington. Fewer tourists coming in every summer. Massive repair costs when their establishments were shot up again and again and again. Fewer people to do the work. Even the roads leading to their establishments were a crapshoot now. You never knew when there might be a charred shell of a car blocking traffic in both directions or when the mafia had set up a roadblock to prevent their target from escaping. Many businesses had outright packed up and left Fatlington.

Askthepizzaguy sat in his thronelike chair overlooking the ruin of the town he had just inherited, utterly alone. He had guards, of course; some were outside the Hotel, some were in the lobby, more were in his hallway, still more were at his front door. But these were just underlings, after all. People whose job it was to follow orders. He had given them all choices, he said to himself. He enabled them to choose this route. He had given them their lives and happiness and victory, and they were better off for it.

They were now enjoying the spoils of their victory. Director Seon would see to it that the Committee formally disbanded in the morning. The incessant cycle of vote/do things at night would finally end. And then? Then, the Clemenza family would have full control over the town.

In town, on the beach, the waves lapped up onto the shore, the same as they had always done. There was the incessant patter of the rain on whatever solid object it came into contact with first. All the rest was silent.

The buildings had been boarded up. The people had moved on. The Clemenza family was all that was left. And now they got to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Askthepizzaguy, the Capo di Tutti Capi, sat in his thronelike chair overlooking the town, seeing nothing and hearing nothing. Outside, the rain continued to pour down.


OOC

Capo di Tutti Capi IV ends with a mafia family victory. Don Clemenza is now Capo di Tutti Capi!

If you're wondering about your individual victory condition... you figure it out. :laugh4: khaan and I are done.

It's been a great ride (if a bit long), thanks to everyone for playing. This was not an easy game to host, especially not stepping in midway, but we're honored that the Gameroom Anniversary, which started back in June, ended on such a big note. You may now begin posting your commentaries, of which I'm sure there are many.


List of players by fate:

Attacked = 65: Askthepizzaguy (n1, n2, n4, n5, n8, n21), Raskolnikov (n1), Slash and earn (n1, n6), slysnake (n1, n3), Earthling (n1), a completely inoffensive name (n2), Master Necromanver (n2), Cahoma (n2), El Barto (n2), Montmorency (n2, n4), Chaotix (n2, n3, n11, n12, n19), taillesskangaru (n3), Secura (n3), Ameranth (n3), Craterus (n3), Cecil XIX (n3, n6), johnhughthom (n4), Ishmael (n4), Drunk Clown (n4, n5), Psychonaut (n5), Suburban Plankton (n4), Sasaki Kojiro (n4), scottishranger (n4, n10), edse (n5), Erebus (n5, n6, n15), Diana Abnoba (n6, n10), J.D. (n6), Zack (n6), Camikaze (n7), Hero di Classico (n7), Diamondeye (n7, n9), guiri (n8), Khazaar (n8, n9, n11), Riedquat (n8), robbiecon (n8), Scienter (n8 x2), sturmhauke (n8), Jarema (n9), Oh! TheLastDays! (n10, n17, n18), qlyphz (n10, n12), Psychonaut (n11), Crazed Rabbit (n12), Erebus (n12), BillMC (n12), Secura (n13), Beefy (n13), white eyes (n13), B_Ray (n14), Renata (n14, n15), Tiaexz (n14), Kennigit (n15), gibsons (n15), Believer (n16), Death is Yonder (n16, n20), shlin28 (n16), Seon (n17), hero di classico (n18), autolycus (n19, n21), Ironside (n19)

Wounded = 22: Slysnake (n1, n3), Lord Brennus (n3), Tratorix (n4), edse (n5), Erebus (n6), Psychonaut (n6), Choxorn (n7), dcmort93 (n7), Zack (n7), guiri (n8), Monk (n8), Sasaki (n9), Lewwyn (N11), Neri (N11), Scottishranger (n13, n18), Sturmhauke (n13), BillMC (n14), The Stranger (n14), Winston Hughes (n14), Renata (n18)

Killed = 76: Captain Black Adder [townie] (n1), Pharoah [townie] (n2), Moros [luca] (n2), ELITEWARMAN8GINGYBREADMENMILK [townie] (n2), TinCow [detective] (n3), Xenoneb [townie] (n3), El Barto [detective] (n3), Arjos [FBI chief] (n3), Ameranth [wiseguy] (n4), Lord Winter [wiseguy] (n4), Suburban Plankton [detective] (n5), slysnake [townie] (n5), Lord Brennus [townie] (n5), Bow-wow-wow [townie] (n5), ByzantineKnight [townie] (n6), Kagemusha [serial killer] (n6), Tratorix [FBI] (n6), Raskolnikov [wiseguy] (n6), Nictel [wiseguy] (n6), J.D. [wiseguy] (n6), Visorslash [communist leader] (n7), Cecil XIX [townie] (n7), Drunk Clown [luca] (n7), Johnhughthom [wiseguy] (n7), Jolt [Made] (n7), Romanic [wiseguy] (n7), fubbleskag [doctor] (n8), Ibn-Khaldun [townie] (n8), Memnon [townie] (n8), robbiecon [townie] (n8), Andres [Special Agent] (n8), Camikaze [Made] (n8), Frozen in Ice [wiseguy] (n8), woad&fangs [townie] (n9), Zack [townie] (n9), Zim [Luca] (n9), Choxorn [townie] (n9), dcmort93 [townie] (n9), Diamondeye [wiseguy] (n10), AggonyKing [townie] (n10), God Emperor [made] (n10), Skotsko [made] (n10), slash and earn [townie] (n10), thefluffyone93 [rogue detective] (n10), Craterus [townie] (n11), Peasant Phill [Don] (n11), Sasaki [Don] (n11), ULC [townie] (n11), Khazaar [townie] (n12), Johhog [Wiseguy] (n12), qlyphz [townie] (n12), Lewwyn [made] (n13), Monk [townie] (n13), Yaropolk [townie] (n13), Cahoma [Luca] (n14), guiri [townie] (n14), Psychonaut [detective] (n14), Scienter [Made] (n14), B_Ray [townie] (n16), gnarlycharlie [Don] (n16), Sigurd [communist recruit] (n16), Sprig [Made] (n16), Clitsome [communist] (n17), fyremarble [don] (n17), gibsonsg91921 [luca] (n17), Winston Hughes [made] (n17), Backwards Logic [Made] (n18), Believer [FBI] (n18), GamezRule [don] (n18), kennigit [Made] (n18), Secura [rogue] (n18), Bsmith [wiseguy] (n19), Jarema [made] (n19), Neri [made] (n19), Tiaexz [made] (n19), White eyes [wiseguy] (n19), Xehh II [wiseguy] (n19), Hero Di Classico [Made] (n21)


Lynched = 21: Earthling [townie] (d2), a completely inoffensive name [townie] (d3), Subotan [wiseguy] (d3), Major Robert Dump [wiseguy] (d4), Ishmael [communist] (d5), Montmorency [wiseguy] (d6), landlubber [Made] (d8), Captain Blackadder [townie] (d9), Riedquat [townie] (d10), Edse [surgeon] (d11), Populus Romanus [surgeon] (d12), Crazed Rabbit [made] (d13), Sturmhauke (d15) [townie], The Stranger (d15) [rogue], BillMC [detective] (d16), Erebus (d17) [townie], shlin28 [townie] (d18), Scottishranger [don] (d19), Chaotix (d20) [Made], Ironside (d21) [rogue], Renata (d22) [Don]

Wogged = 5: bestrfcplayer (n6), cpdwane [townie] (n4), Master Necromanver [Don] (n4), taillesskangaru [townie] (n4), Silver Jan [townie] (d16)

Added: Autolycus (d4)

Survived (14):

Askthepizzaguy [Don], Autolycus [Made], Beefy187 [surgeon], DaveShack [Shyster], Death is yonder [surgeon], Diana Abnoba [Made], Double A [Made], Krill [Made], LazyMcCrow [serial killer], Nightbringer [surgeon], Niklas [Made], O!TheLastDays! [Communist defector], Seon [surgeon], SisterCoyote [surgeon]

[Ishmael]

I'd like to greatly thank all of our hosts - Seamus for creating this great game, and GH and issaikhaan for selflessly taking over the hosting. And of course, well done to the Clemenza!

For those who are curious and/or don't already have them, here are both of the Communist QT's:

Communist1 (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/BWSmiXe2rKRZU)
Communist2 (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/CqudaLWMQ9yP)

[johnhughthom]

Congratulations to the winners, and thank you to Seamus, khaan and GH for hosting.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'd just like to point out that somehow, I managed to end up with no access to any of the Quicktopics throughout the entire game, so this will provide for some interesting reading on my part.

[seireikhaan]

:flybye:

It's been... well... an adventure, to say the least. Congratulations to the Clemenza for their victory. I'd like to thank everyone who played for their patience with us as we tried to get bearings on the game. I'd like to thank GH, for being partner in crime during the whole experience and being generally awesome. I'd like to thank Pizza for bringing in so many people to get this game to a level we've never seen. It's truly astonishing. And, of course, I'd like to thank Seamus for starting this game and bringing the anny to such a conclusion.


I'm sure there's more, but I will do something a bit more detailed later on the actual events of the game and and what was going on behind the scenes.

[classical_hero]

Think this cause for a celebration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw1P7gdtAeY

There is unfortunately on name not on the living list. :(

It will be fun to see how man QTs started by ATPG there are.

[Montmorency]

I really do think Tincow should embed some "ending" music in the Gameroom page.

[AggonyKing]

congrats to the winners ^_^ was a fun game :D can't wait for another huge one like this one.

[Populus Romanus]

Congrats to the winners!

Thank you to the awesome hosts, this never could have happened without you!

[Niklas]

And so it ends at last. Congratulations Askthepizzaguy, your achievements in this game are the kind of stuff that legends are made of. You were awesome!

I gave you my best shot, tried to be a worthy adversary, and yet it wasn't enough. Now we both stand as victors, and yet for me the victory is hollow, a mere acceptance of the inevitable. Next time, Pizza... :evil:

[Double A]

Wow. I still can't believe I lived after that double cross.

Funnily enough, I had originally planned to do that waaaaay back during the time where Pizza sent out a mass PM to basically everyone. I was gonna send it to GH for the lulz, but accidentally sent it to Pizza instead. :tongue:

Red text was I could change any detective results on me twice. I never once used it. Last game I had luck. That was way better. Fortunately, I never got attacked!

I was originally a Wiseguy, contrary to what Pizza said before. So, yeah, he lied. He does that sometimes.

[Askthepizzaguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxkZBlTYeds




When we were young the future was so bright
The old neighborhood was so alive
And every kid on the whole darn street
Was gonna make it big in every beat

Now the neighborhood's cracked and torn
The kids are grown up but their lives are worn
How can one little street
Swallow so many lives

Chances thrown
Nothing's free
Longing for
Used to be
Still it's hard
Hard to see
Fragile lives
shattered dreams

Jenny had a chance, well she really did
Instead she dropped out and had a couple of kids
Mark still lives at home cause he's got no job
He just plays guitar and smokes a lot of -

Jay committed suicide
Brandon OD'd and died
What the heck is going on?
The cruellest dream - reality

Chances thrown
Nothing's free
Longing for
what used to be
Still it's hard
Hard to see
Fragile lives
Shattered dreams




I will have a lot of commentary, and here are many of the quicktopics.





http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/q4LFjDJESRR
4 FAMILY QT- included the Tataglia (Autolycus) before he was absorbed into the Cunio.... then the Clemenza. I brought you on journey, Auto man.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/hFhz54aX36h7D
3 Family QT, after we absorbed the Tataglia and killed off the Barzini.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/iq63s77TBi6
CUNIO FAMILY QUICKTOPIC that I started (purpose is for me to have a place to chat with them before I become Cunio. I'm Mintberry Crunch.)

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/qChprVm6FfyE
CORLEONE FAMILY QUICKTOPIC that I started (purpose is for me to chat with the Corleone. I'm Mintberry crunch.)

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/XDVEaND4UQdY
STRACCHI FAMILY QUICKTOPIC that I started (purpose is for me to chat with the Stracchi. I'm Chester Cheetah.)

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/T6WG38Qe5dPgN
TOWNIE RESISTANCE QUICKTOPIC that I gained access to through my spies. (wink)

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/iaSkdJXLtirE
CORLEONE FAMILY QUICKTOPIC- the original one I didn't start, I believe. Didn't gain access until after the Corleone were mostly dead.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/fhAChp74iJSk
Another one.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/pU6eWK4hcJ6M2
This is one the Corleone Don invited me to, to discuss business.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/S2nBBbSuFYwUK
This Corleone quicktopic, I was given by Backwards Logic, after I plotted the first attempts on the Corleone family. This was meant to prove they had little ill intent on the Stracchi, but GamezRule's post in there somewhere was useful as leverage in the negotiations. I knew he had not the strongest influence on the Corleone but I used it as a post facto justification for the attack, to make the Stracchi and myself look like we had the high ground.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/ZtHSPVgerVxk
Another Cunio quicktopic. This was one where they were hiding their identities. I also wasn't invited right away.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/TJ5yg29HJN9ZQ
3 Don Quicktopic. Tellos = fyremarble, Gnarly = Don Cunio, Gamez = Gamez. I was given this by fyremarble.


http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/mVrxktXxccGT8
The "Gambino family" quicktopic. This was a fake family I created which included 6 Corleone, 4 Cunio and 2 Stracchi, to convince the Corleone that I was serious about peace and winning with them. It went defunct when we made the final moves to eliminate the Corleone.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/VtAZLfiw6W7tP
This is the FAKE DeCavalcante family quicktopic. It was given to prospective DeCavalcante (renamed Clemenza) people who I didn't trust. Like Diana Abnoba. See, the idea here was to convince folks who had been informed of our plans that they were not ready for action yet. This would make them think they had time to prepare. Instead, our real plans were discussed elsewhere and much accelerated. The code names made it seem more authentic. However, I didn't discuss very much and the reason why was because we were about to attack anyway.


http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/Zc7ySUD3s3jBA
This is a hidden, advanced Stracchi quicktopic that I was given. I spotted classical hero plotting against me and immediately warned him off of trying it. :wink: The all seeing eye is..... all seeing, I guess.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/tjwq9acjmhFuc
Wiseguy unaligned quicktopic. I wasn't given it until it was basically defunct.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/SXUXquTJZ8h
Yet another Corleone quicktopic. Paranoid people, those Corleone.



http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/5jBbEvC7xVz
CLEMENZA FAMILY QUICKTOPIC

The real spaghetti-o.




And finally...


http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/FKXHT594sqp5t
Darth Sidious / Darth Maul quicktopic.

Askthepizzaguy - Darth Sidious
LazyMcCrow - Darth Maul.


All this time I was training him to be Capo, to take my place when I died, or if it was politically possible, to make him Capo to begin with. Little did I realize mister wiseguy who had trouble getting kills, and mister Made who struggled to become Made, who had constant computer issues.... (LOL) was really the serial killer.

When I found out, I lol'ed.

I then asked the game host if he could kill me and become Capo himself, because his play was that epic. Shame he didn't get his 5 kills though.

Use your aggressive instincts, boy. Let the hate flow.....

[Askthepizzaguy]

I was originally a Wiseguy, contrary to what Pizza said before. So, yeah, he lied. He does that sometimes.

I never told one lie this whole game. :stare:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, CLASSICAL HERO WAS NOT A PLANT.

He really was trying to rebel against me! You silly bananas. :no:


Just like Diana Abnoba really wanted to backstab me good. You turned her down too. You know, sometimes even my closest friends want me dead after I'm a gigantic megalomaniacal jerkwad. It is possible they'd choose to betray me and you turned them down, how could you, how could you. :angry:

[Double A]

I never told one lie this whole game. :stare:

To quote a famous man, I lol'ed.

[Choxorn]

Pizza, you're a magnificent bastard, and I really need to get around to reading your book. :laugh4:

[Niklas]

We didn't turn Diana down, she turned us down. And I really can't believe that Hero wasn't a plant - from my perspective it all looked so obvious.

[Askthepizzaguy]

We didn't turn Diana down, she turned us down. And I really can't believe that Hero wasn't a plant - from my perspective it all looked so obvious.

I have no idea what really happened between you and Diana. All I know is that the diplomacy was bad on both ends... Diana's not very experienced with threatening/pushing people or even beguiling them with her charms, so when she tried, it just sounded like a worse version of the deal I offered you guys. Mine was fake, though, hers was real and would have won you the game.

That said, the Corleone didn't agree or even fake an agreement to get things rolling... an opportunity lost. I was worth lying for. Should have at least lied to her, so someone would kill me.

Pizza's rule: Lie to win, lie to save a lost game, lie to amuse yourself, lie when you're caught lying, lie like a rug, and lie some more. Lie, lie, lie, always lie.






Also, I need to get into my supposed invulnerability this game.

I left DaveShack undefended for about half of the game, in total. Dead serious. He was also known to every single mafia Don, including the Barzini, the Pentangeli, the Corleone, all my rivals, and by a certain round, everyone in the game. Nobody ever took a shot at him. He also forgot to protect me a few times from the lynch. He could have been threatened, lynched, or sweet-talked but few if any made the attempt. He kept protecting me because nobody else would talk to him for the first how many phases of the game, and I got him two lynch stoppages back to back, part of his win conditions. I think Renata was one of the few who ever said hello to him. A lot of what I did was possible because I had no one else bothering to try very hard to do what I was doing; such as organizing groups. Fubbleskag and sturmhauke and a few others get credit for the attempt, but where were our veteran players? A vacuum of power, I just expanded to fill in the void.

Further, I ordered hits on myself and relied on others to defend me, after publicly declaring both pre-game and during the game that I was openly neutral and willing to help anyone, read: willing to help turn townies into wiseguys. Someone should have pulled protection on me one of those half dozen times I ordered my own death. I would have been vulnerable or gone. Also, I stepped down as Director so Renata could get in her shot, if someone had used the tactic I used all game long, which was double-hitting "lucky" people I'd be dead right now. Niklas and whoever else was disloyal like I dunno Diana, Double A, Hero..... you had your shot to remove me.

If folks declined to join the DeCavalcante/Clemenza after I became Don, then I would have also been screwed. I risked a sure win on becoming Capo, which I did not originally set out to become, solely for the purposes of taking risks and having fun. I had zero need to risk a win on becoming a mafia Don, and I grabbed Neri and Krill and formed my own family. If others didn't join, I would just have lost the game. I also was the face of everything bad that was happening to virtually every faction; everyone wanted me dead, and blocking the lawyer and then lynching me was possible, and attempted.

Anyway, I acted like I was invincible but I was not, and I believe people bought into the propaganda. The block the lawyer plan was particularly genius, because I had absolutely no defense against that and never formulated a plan to counter it. It was my achilles' heel, and it nearly got me even after I thought we had a perfectly won position. I was wrong, we were outnumbered. Inactivity strikes again. Renata, Niklas, everyone almost gave me my comeuppance. Well played. So very close.





My plan for this game was to be naughty, pure and simple. Try to get contacts in every family, promote people to Made. Make sure the mafia knew I was their ally, while messing with the town groups. I would be the mole on the inside. That was the idea anyway.

I was also trying to play kingmaker, and promote someone of my choosing to become Capo, chosen very very early on or even before the game started.

My apprentices were Seon, Ironside, Renata, God Emperor, Secura, LazyMcCrow, considered a few others. Seon, Ironside, and Secura ended up becoming incorruptible townies or otherwise incapable of going mafia, and Renata was already a Made and not especially interested in being my plaything, so I left her be.

Lazy of course ended up being the Serial Killer. He also "became wiseguy" and "became Made" too late for me to plausibly convince anyone to make him Don. God Emperor died.

I gave up control of the groups, both town and mafia, halfway through the game. Watched them play for a bit, only asking Nightbringer to cover Diana, since people assumed she was in the heart of my organization. I actually kept her at arms' length, she was little more than just another Made to me, but I figured she'd be attacked so I kept her covered when I could. After about 5 rounds or so with no real attempts by anyone to grab power, I decided to shake things up a little and start a mafia war. I pitted the Stracchi against the Corleones, and made it look like I was not involved.

That weakened that family, which was less affiliated with me than the others. Then, I blocked the follow-up attacks on the Corleone to convince them I was just trying to stop threats to my friends, and that if they would not attack the Stracchi, they'd be okay. Well, it took some convincing but we pacified them, and then we followed up with another assault.

We also took out loose ends like Chaotix and the unaligned wiseguys, because they were wildcards and potential rivals. Maybe that was a mistake, maybe it wasn't. But they died and I felt we were safer for it.

I felt someone would make a grab for power at the end and I wanted to be their final stumbling block, I put myself in as the Don of a three person family and set out to recruit whoever I could. I snagged the Stracchi and the Cunio one by one. I guess nobody else was trying to do that.

The Stracchi wanted Diana as Don..... and if she became Don, her family would have dwarfed mine and she would have won or outlasted me at the very least. NO WAY would I become Capo. Sorry baby, I was a little bit faster than you were on that power grab. You had it in your hands, my love.

Renata and the Corleone were the other safe bet for the winning family. I did not believe they would accept me as Don, and since myself, the Cunio, and the Stracchi overpowered her, I felt to become a Made under Renata was to surrender needlessly to someone who hadn't quite beaten me.

Anyway. I knew going for Capo would be a risk... folks aren't always trustworthy and several Clemenza tried to overthrow me in the process, classical hero, Diana Abnoba, at the very least. Sprig was in until he started telling everyone his plans to betray each family... so he was out as well.




I did one thing right which was sniffing out insurrections very quickly. Most everyone who tried to bring me down died in very short order, unless I didn't consider them an immediate threat like the doctors.

My prediction that the doctors/surgeons were not the main targets, that we could ignore them, was somewhat correct. They did become a problem once they were surgeon and we needed to keep making kills to advance the game. Their protections cost me the lives of several folks. A risk I was willing to take, one I didn't need to take once we controlled the vote, but I didn't want to drag out the game.

A doctor or surgeon who is outvoted is powerless. That's why the town position is inferior, in my opinion... their most powerful forces do not hold a candle to the power of the mafia, man for man. They can only win by outvoting us.

The lynch attempts on me D7 and D8 wasted just enough time to give the mafia the majority or close to it, and the town was fairly doomed from there, unless they allied with the Barzini/Pentangeli/Corleone, anyone who would listen.

The resistance to the Stracchi/Cunio was always divided enough to be conquered. A more united resistance would have beaten them. Eventually they became the Clemenza family as a truly united force... they were kept in check by the Pentangeli who did a good job resisting but they needed doctor protection. Town should have helped the Pentangeli bring us down. Then they should have done the same for the Corleone. The resistance needed to be mafia goons at that point, but town didn't seem to trust mafia goons.


I mentioned at one point that the townies needed to turn to places and people they never thought they should, in order to win the game. I referred to the Corleone and Pentangeli. They needed to make a deal with the lesser of evils to remove the greater of evils, that may or may not have happened, but I didn't see it happen. I thought I did at one point but it could have just been a glitch, there was no follow-through.



I think I owe Crazed Rabbit an apology; he may not have leaked my info. He did try to oppose me and bring me down shortly thereafter, and when word of that got back to me, that's when I decided to pull the plug on him. But the initial accusation may have been incorrect. That said, I still needed to kill him at that point. But he wasn't the villain there I don't think. He admitted to doing nothing at night and he also sent messages trying to convince people to turn against me, but perhaps only after I thought he was a turncoat.

I don't know, I don't have full info. What I do know is that shortly after I gave him all my info, the Stracchi and Cunio started getting attacked and even accused of being what they were. So I felt it was CR, but didn't have conclusive proof, so I let him live and offered him chances to prove himself through murder. Then he chose not to murder and tried to bring me down, so I had him killed.

Gave him my best writeup, because his efforts, GH's, sturmhaukes, and several others who really, really tried to oppose me made the game for me. If there was no resistance this would have been quite boring. Thank you to everyone who actually gave an effort, even when all hope seemed lost.

Those final rounds, anti-Pizza votes should have been in the majority or near it, enough where if all my people didn't show up, we lost the lynch and the game. More activity on the town's part would have won the game. Unity, as well.

That was the final chance to get us, really. The Clemenza-allied showed up to play, not everyone opposed did. So we made it through because I was a tiebreaker, another reason to be Director.

Probably will have more coherent thoughts when I've had sleep, but wanted to dump this out there for whoever cared.

[Askthepizzaguy]

There was a lot of interesting chat logs which obviously the audience doesn't get to see, but here's one where after the Stracchi attack the Corleones the first time, I protect them and make peace. Now they approach me and start making demands.

So this is the chatlog wherein the Corleones play hardball with me. :creep:




<tbody>
11/14/2011

12:37:03 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

hey winston :)


11/14/2011

12:37:15 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Winston, what the heck. You're dead.


11/14/2011

12:37:28 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Where were your defensive hobos?


11/14/2011

12:38:12 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Sorry, I was drinking whiskey


11/14/2011

12:38:30 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

that's a fairly good reason actually


11/14/2011

12:39:56 PM

Winston Hughes @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Renata

oh good, you're planning my defeat


11/14/2011

12:40:05 PM

Winston Hughes @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Renata

:P


11/14/2011

12:40:09 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Yes, we've already buried you and moved on


11/14/2011

12:40:15 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Due to our losses, I feel as though the Stracchi have us my the balls a bit.


11/14/2011

12:49:47 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I actually agree with Pizza here, I see no reason to let Scotty survive the day


11/14/2011

12:49:55 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

pffft


11/14/2011

12:49:58 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You want dead doctors, yes?


11/14/2011

12:50:11 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

And leaving Seon and his cronies around to screw up ust talking down the Stracchi's


11/14/2011

12:50:12 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

we can have everyone gang-stomp them tonight


11/14/2011

12:50:30 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You're talking a bit like captain Ahab over there, BL


11/14/2011

12:50:35 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

"Seon and his cronies" are now too few to cover everyone now


11/14/2011

12:51:05 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

He has what, three, four docs still?


11/14/2011

12:51:14 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it's enough to cause his version of chaos


11/14/2011

12:51:23 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

not really


11/14/2011

12:51:35 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

he cannot stop the lynch


11/14/2011

12:51:42 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and we can accomplish everything we need to with that


11/14/2011

12:51:44 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Scotty dies


11/14/2011

12:51:59 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

if Seon were silly enough to protect Gamez tonight, he'd pay for it with a doctor's life


11/14/2011

12:52:07 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

we simply gang up on the doctors tonight


11/14/2011

12:52:11 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

force them to self-protect


11/14/2011

12:52:15 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

then someone hits Gamez


11/14/2011

12:52:22 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

if they protect gamez, a doctor dies instead


11/14/2011

12:52:28 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

then we lynch gamez tomorrow


11/14/2011

12:52:32 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it's like the hit went through


11/14/2011

12:52:37 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Seon *cannot* stop us


11/14/2011

12:52:57 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Trust me. I know how to plan an attack.


11/14/2011

12:52:58 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Or, they don't be all predictable


11/14/2011

12:53:07 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and protect who they want


11/14/2011

12:53:23 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and then they die en masse


11/14/2011

12:53:26 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

even better


11/14/2011

12:53:37 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I like your thinking.


11/14/2011

12:53:38 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

:D


11/14/2011

12:53:44 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

My point is: I want the Stracchi dead tonight


11/14/2011

12:53:50 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

that means: attacking THEM


11/14/2011

12:54:09 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Because right now, if I'm in there camp, I'm sensing an opportunity to crush the Corelone


11/14/2011

12:54:25 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

We're lost three guys in the last two nights


11/14/2011

12:54:44 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm not about to continue to concede initiative to them


11/14/2011

12:55:00 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Unlike you, I think the STracchi are the biggest threat, not scottish


11/14/2011

12:55:07 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they can kill multiples of us


11/14/2011

12:55:12 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

scottish only one


11/14/2011

12:55:16 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and that's if he scanned us


11/14/2011

12:55:24 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

no, not if he scanned us


11/14/2011

12:55:27 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

hes not a rogue


11/14/2011

12:55:28 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

he's a Don


11/14/2011

12:55:35 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

he kills whoever he pleases


11/14/2011

12:55:51 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Don who?


11/14/2011

12:55:57 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

Pentangeli


11/14/2011

12:55:59 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

face


11/14/2011

12:56:00 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

palm


11/14/2011

12:56:10 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

you should read the thread once in a while *innocent look*


11/14/2011

12:56:11 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

whatever, point still stands


11/14/2011

12:56:22 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I don'thave time to read a thousand pages


11/14/2011

12:56:26 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Point still stands on your head.


11/14/2011

12:56:37 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

seriously, though --


11/14/2011

12:56:45 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

the stracchi are taking a don vote today, correct?


11/14/2011

12:56:52 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

yes


11/14/2011

12:56:55 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

and it will fail


11/14/2011

12:57:01 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and not only that, they're disrupting it on my orders


11/14/2011

12:57:05 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they plan on joining us


11/14/2011

12:57:16 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

they're going to a bit discombobulated


11/14/2011

12:57:20 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

who is "they"?


11/14/2011

12:57:20 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

BL's little plan ignores the largest threat AND jeopardizes the entire alliance.


11/14/2011

12:57:27 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I want no part of it


11/14/2011

12:57:29 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Mades can still attack though


11/14/2011

12:57:32 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

veto, veto veto


11/14/2011

12:57:37 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

wait, slow down


11/14/2011

12:57:41 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

We're killing the guys we're going to kil anyway!


11/14/2011

12:57:44 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

one step at a time


11/14/2011

12:57:48 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

precisely.


11/14/2011

12:57:50 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

One step at a time


11/14/2011

12:58:10 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

BL's plan has good and bad parts


11/14/2011

12:58:26 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and naughty parts.


11/14/2011

12:58:35 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

mmmmm


11/14/2011

12:58:38 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

the part about leaving Scotty alive is BAD


11/14/2011

12:58:53 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

so is the strike against the Stracchi tonight


11/14/2011

12:58:53 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

the part about killing superfluous mades is good


11/14/2011

12:58:57 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

why?


11/14/2011

12:59:00 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

and i actually lean toward agreeing on scottishranger (with pizza, that is, that he should die). there's no saying who he attacks next. and odds, are whoever it is -- whether "stracchi" or corleone -- it won't be someone like jarema or double A


11/14/2011

12:59:04 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

because that's no fun


11/14/2011

12:59:12 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

exactly


11/14/2011

12:59:17 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'll tell you why.


11/14/2011

1:00:01 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

i need convincing on that too


11/14/2011

1:00:05 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I want to see Diana and Lazy added to the Gambino


11/14/2011

1:00:16 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Duh. They don't get attacked


11/14/2011

1:00:25 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it will be harder to convince them to trust us if we killed off their peeps before they even joined us


11/14/2011

1:00:26 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

yes, that's a given


11/14/2011

1:00:31 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Uh, no


11/14/2011

1:00:39 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

their only chance at winning will be to join us


11/14/2011

1:00:43 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they should of course be in on the plan


11/14/2011

1:00:57 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

don't they already know that they are the only ones of the Stracchi to be invited in this?


11/14/2011

1:01:15 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

exactly


11/14/2011

1:01:16 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they're under the impression others might join as well


11/14/2011

1:01:22 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

its a delicate process


11/14/2011

1:01:23 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

oh, goody


11/14/2011

1:01:25 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

you're bleeping it up


11/14/2011

1:01:35 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Nope, I'm giving them a clear choice


11/14/2011

1:01:38 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

join us and win


11/14/2011

1:01:42 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

or don't and die


11/14/2011

1:01:46 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

you're hardly in a position to dictate terms


11/14/2011

1:01:46 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

pretty simple


11/14/2011

1:01:53 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

don't remind us


11/14/2011

1:01:58 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I already told you why I hate this idea


11/14/2011

1:01:59 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

well, that's the problem, isn't it?


11/14/2011

1:02:05 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I can veto it with or without you


11/14/2011

1:02:15 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

pizza, don't go there


11/14/2011

1:02:19 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but if I veto it without you, that makes this whole alliance thing rather awkward


11/14/2011

1:02:25 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

if you have good arguments, give them


11/14/2011

1:02:26 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

i'm really conscious right now of what you said to (I think) winston yesterday about it being very uncomfortable to negotiation from weakness


11/14/2011

1:02:30 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'd rather you not be so stubborn


11/14/2011

1:02:34 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

negotiate*


11/14/2011

1:02:50 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

if you don't have good arguments, why should we use your plan in the first place?


11/14/2011

1:03:33 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

i wasn't aware that diana and lazy weren't fully informed of what was going on, though


11/14/2011

1:03:53 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it's easier to make their choices for them


11/14/2011

1:03:58 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

once they're part of the gambino


11/14/2011

1:04:02 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and THEN their allies die


11/14/2011

1:04:07 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

what choice do they have?


11/14/2011

1:04:34 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

And, what happens if Beskar and co decide: "You know what, the Corelone look pretty weak right now. Let's kill them."


11/14/2011

1:04:48 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

they'd be stupid not to attack us tonight


11/14/2011

1:04:52 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

that's a valid concern


11/14/2011

1:04:53 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

exactly


11/14/2011

1:04:58 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Oh give me a break


11/14/2011

1:05:03 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

NO


11/14/2011

1:05:17 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Start actually listening to us for a change


11/14/2011

1:05:43 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

We have concerns


11/14/2011

1:05:48 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

you're not addressing them


11/14/2011

1:06:01 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

So do I, and I did address them YESTERDAY when Renata and I HAD THIS DISCUSSION


11/14/2011

1:06:15 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Oh, before Winston was dead, huh?


11/14/2011

1:06:23 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Stop blaming me for that.


11/14/2011

1:06:26 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I didn't


11/14/2011

1:06:28 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Seriously


11/14/2011

1:06:35 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm pointing out things have changed


11/14/2011

1:06:45 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

the stalemate is starting to look lopsided


11/14/2011

1:06:54 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and the Stracchi have to see that


11/14/2011

1:08:53 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Look, I'm willing to compromise a little


11/14/2011

1:09:00 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but you guys had better listen to my concerns as well


11/14/2011

1:09:15 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm representing more than just myself in this conversation, so dont gang up on me


11/14/2011

1:09:26 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

a plan that everyone agrees on is definitely preferable


11/14/2011

1:09:48 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You had an idea to deal with Scotty


11/14/2011

1:09:54 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

that idea could work on Beskar


11/14/2011

1:09:56 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

further


11/14/2011

1:10:05 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You're not the only one who sees Beskar for what he is


11/14/2011

1:10:10 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

the Stracchi see it as well


11/14/2011

1:10:13 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Diana, Lazy, etc


11/14/2011

1:10:19 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I could get permission to whack him


11/14/2011

1:10:43 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

But unless I get that, we do throw this back into war mode if we just attack the Stracchi carte blance


11/14/2011

1:10:53 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

precisely for the same balance of power horse dooky that you're concerned with


11/14/2011

1:11:12 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

MY concern is getting the Corleone Don dead and the gambino formed before we do anything stupid like continue the war


11/14/2011

1:11:26 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

My plan involves us acting like the new family now


11/14/2011

1:11:31 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

So does mine.


11/14/2011

1:11:40 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

since so far, I haven't really seen it outside of a few dead lucas


11/14/2011

1:12:13 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Your plan leaves the Coreleone open to attack


11/14/2011

1:12:15 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I guess I was right, Renata.


11/14/2011

1:12:17 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I don't like that


11/14/2011

1:12:24 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I told you all about this yesterday


11/14/2011

1:12:28 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they will never trust me.


11/14/2011

1:12:30 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

hense why I have this dea instead


11/14/2011

1:12:30 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

yeah


11/14/2011

1:12:32 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Thats why this fails.


11/14/2011

1:12:40 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

it's not about trust


11/14/2011

1:12:41 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

really


11/14/2011

1:12:42 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm sorry.


11/14/2011

1:12:47 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it's not trust toward you


11/14/2011

1:12:52 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I can't have terms dictated to me any more than you can.


11/14/2011

1:13:00 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it's trusting the STracchi to not attack us


11/14/2011

1:13:02 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

that was almost entirely my problem, and i'm over it


11/14/2011

1:13:10 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm willing to give you beskar and I'm willing to have him blocked


11/14/2011

1:13:13 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but I know the Stracchi


11/14/2011

1:13:18 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and I know them very well


11/14/2011

1:13:19 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

pizza, now you're trying to make it emotional, don't do that please


11/14/2011

1:13:28 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they are not a threat to you


11/14/2011

1:13:31 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I think we're about to reach a good plan here


11/14/2011

1:13:34 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they want to join you


11/14/2011

1:13:44 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

personally i don't even know if i care about beskar anymore, dead or alive


11/14/2011

1:14:03 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

What I'm saying is I cannot in good conscience allow the Stracchi to die en masse tonight


11/14/2011

1:14:07 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

we form the Gambino


11/14/2011

1:14:09 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

then it's fine


11/14/2011

1:14:15 PM

Niklas @ CFC

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I need to head off and have dinner - please don't kill each other in my absence, will you?


11/14/2011

1:14:25 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

It's the same argument you're giving me now


11/14/2011

1:14:27 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

better make it quick :)


11/14/2011

1:14:29 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

a balance of power concern


11/14/2011

1:14:38 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

concern for whom, though?


11/14/2011

1:14:45 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

My butt and the Cunio's


11/14/2011

1:14:45 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

we're primarly concerned about winding up dead


11/14/2011

1:15:01 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Well, here's the thing


11/14/2011

1:15:02 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

no stracchi means we lose if you dont accept us


11/14/2011

1:15:06 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm concerned about betrayal


11/14/2011

1:15:13 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

The Corelone cannot hop eto go against the STracchi and Cunnio together


11/14/2011

1:15:21 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

We can't betray you and win


11/14/2011

1:15:25 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

no, but if you get my permission to whack the Stracchi


11/14/2011

1:15:30 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

all of a sudden you have all the power


11/14/2011

1:15:35 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm not a fool


11/14/2011

1:15:36 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

we don't have the numbers to, even if we wanted to


11/14/2011

1:15:59 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

What'll happen is we'll all kill ourselves


11/14/2011

1:16:03 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and the townies will win


11/14/2011

1:16:07 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

not good


11/14/2011

1:16:12 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but thats not what you're proposing


11/14/2011

1:16:21 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

you're proposing me being in on the Stracchi's demise


11/14/2011

1:16:23 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

No, you're taking the plan a step too far


11/14/2011

1:16:25 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

therefore it has a chance of success


11/14/2011

1:16:35 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

? i don't see what you're getting at


11/14/2011

1:16:36 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You're assuming we're going to betray you


11/14/2011

1:16:41 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Niklas @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

that's not the case


11/14/2011

1:16:42 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Niklas @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Always assume that.


11/14/2011

1:16:57 PM





Niklas @ CFC has left the conversation.


11/14/2011

1:17:02 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

we're just assuring ourselves - the Corelone - that the STracchi can't dop anything themselves against us.


11/14/2011

1:17:03 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm playing for a compromise victory in spite of that


11/14/2011

1:17:17 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You lost that battle already! They could have wiped you last night


11/14/2011

1:17:24 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they dont intend to


11/14/2011

1:17:34 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

gee, thanks for rubbing it in :(


11/14/2011

1:17:37 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm not


11/14/2011

1:17:52 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I might be blunt but it's not to gloat, its to point out this is wrong


11/14/2011

1:18:21 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Well, they can still kill us tonight


11/14/2011

1:18:27 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

They can.


11/14/2011

1:18:33 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they could have attacked yesterday, sure


11/14/2011

1:18:39 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but we've since lost two people


11/14/2011

1:18:49 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You want their quicktopic, don't you?


11/14/2011

1:18:57 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You want to see their true intentions


11/14/2011

1:19:10 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

it's not a stretch to think they 1) kill our Don and 2) kill a few other mades to force the remnants to either 1) fight them or 2) join them


11/14/2011

1:19:29 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

their Don is dead, and they're in on joining the Corleone


11/14/2011

1:19:35 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

for them to attack you know is retarded


11/14/2011

1:19:39 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

now*


11/14/2011

1:19:53 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

It undermines everything they've done


11/14/2011

1:19:57 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and they know I don't approve


11/14/2011

1:20:02 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I've stopped them 4 times already


11/14/2011

1:20:17 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

four times! If that's not telling I don't know what is


11/14/2011

1:20:31 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

It SHOULD tell you where I stand and what I'm capable of


11/14/2011

1:20:43 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

It also tell me they want us dead for real


11/14/2011

1:20:54 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and they might ignore you that fifth time


11/14/2011

1:21:21 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Look, I hate to be the voice of reason here


11/14/2011

1:21:46 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

But what you're arguing essentially is that you're afraid the Stracchi will use this moment of weakness and destroy you for selfish gain


11/14/2011

1:22:10 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

And what I'm arguing is the same thing with the families reversed, is the situation which will occur if I sanction multiple stracchi hits tonight


11/14/2011

1:22:15 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

And I hate it as much as you do


11/14/2011

1:22:39 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

But I know these guys, and I know they won't be hitting you tonight


11/14/2011

1:22:48 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they've done as I suggested over and over again


11/14/2011

1:23:03 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

they're re-forming their family, they wont have a new Don, and they'll be trying to join you


11/14/2011

1:23:19 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

If that's not good enough, then this alliance just doesnt work


11/14/2011

1:23:24 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

because it lacks trust


11/14/2011

1:23:31 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

sorry


11/14/2011

1:23:56 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm not ignoring your concerns, I share them


11/14/2011

1:24:08 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

But I also won't concede to reverse positions with you for no reason


11/14/2011

1:24:21 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and I wont' toss our plan in jeopardy just because you're afraid


11/14/2011

1:24:28 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

unfortunately you seem to be willing to.


11/14/2011

1:24:41 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

that's not fair, pizza


11/14/2011

1:25:00 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

if you really didn't want to put us in this position, you shouldn't have killed off sprig and sigurd


11/14/2011

1:25:11 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Sprig?!?


11/14/2011

1:25:11 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

^ I was about to hit on that


11/14/2011

1:25:17 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Sigurd mostly


11/14/2011

1:25:20 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

Sigurd was a commie


11/14/2011

1:25:22 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

yes, sprig, too


11/14/2011

1:25:27 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

no kidding. he was killing for us though


11/14/2011

1:25:28 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

No, Sigurd was a Corleone


11/14/2011

1:25:31 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

and sprig probably would have


11/14/2011

1:25:45 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

he may have been a commie


11/14/2011

1:25:52 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

of all the cunio mades he was most likely to ditch them and join us outright, if asked


11/14/2011

1:25:58 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but you chose to kill him over say, Scottish, or another doc


11/14/2011

1:26:37 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

In trust ATPG, there's give and take. All the Corelone have done is take it on the chin for the last three nights. We want that to change.


11/14/2011

1:26:39 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

We've already been over this.


11/14/2011

1:26:43 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

We're going in circles


11/14/2011

1:26:46 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

we sucked that up and dealt with it, for the sake of this alliance. and believe me i know you're risking a lot also. but if your goal was for us not to be afraid ,you should have made other plans


11/14/2011

1:27:11 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I trusted you last night not to hit the Stracchi


11/14/2011

1:27:13 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

you could have


11/14/2011

1:27:21 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

sure


11/14/2011

1:27:31 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I am risking exactly the same as you


11/14/2011

1:27:38 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and I dont think you appreciate that


11/14/2011

1:27:44 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

no, i do


11/14/2011

1:27:49 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I'm not convinced.


11/14/2011

1:28:36 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

it's just i think your position now, if you'd been planning betrayal, is distinctly stronger than ours would be. that wasnt true a couple of nights ago.


11/14/2011

1:28:42 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

and i forgot where i'm trying to go with that


11/14/2011

1:28:48 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

^ I can see


11/14/2011

1:28:54 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

oh yeah, it's not fun to negotiate from weakness :(


11/14/2011

1:29:44 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

that's the one thing you told winston that really resonated with me, that you didn't want to feel the corleones were the winners and we were only graciously allowing you to tag along.


11/14/2011

1:29:50 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

brb phone


11/14/2011

1:30:01 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

There's no middle ground here between trust and distrust. You've either got to trust me or we need to drop the facade.


11/14/2011

1:30:08 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

That said, there IS a middle ground on other things


11/14/2011

1:30:12 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

such as compromise


11/14/2011

1:30:27 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

again, it's not really about trust


11/14/2011

1:30:29 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

What if I sanctioned a hit on at least one Stracchi tonight, from you guys


11/14/2011

1:30:39 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

but not your whole family going ape dookie on them


11/14/2011

1:30:46 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and you get to pick the target


11/14/2011

1:30:52 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

hmmm


11/14/2011

1:30:54 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

is that reasonable?


11/14/2011

1:31:03 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and you can block Beskar if you're concerned


11/14/2011

1:31:07 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I think that seems legit


11/14/2011

1:31:08 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

kill him too if you like


11/14/2011

1:31:19 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I recognize what you've lost


11/14/2011

1:31:22 PM

Renata

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC

you like, BL?


11/14/2011

1:31:28 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

yea, I can do that


11/14/2011

1:31:33 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

and I recognize that you're trying to work it out.


11/14/2011

1:31:45 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

I also appreciate you don't want to feel like you're forced into this


11/14/2011

1:32:07 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

That said, the end of a war and a peace solution often involves muscle-flexing


11/14/2011

1:32:15 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

especially when negotiating on where the final borders lie


11/14/2011

1:32:24 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

You don't want to give up everything at the bargaining table


11/14/2011

1:32:25 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

nor do I


11/14/2011

1:32:31 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

so, either extreme fails


11/14/2011

1:32:35 PM

Ask thepizzaguy

Backwards Logic @ CFC, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

But this works.


11/14/2011

1:32:41 PM

Backwards Logic @ CFC

Ask thepizzaguy, Winston Hughes @ CFC, Renata

yea, I'm okay with this

</tbody>


The end result is a happy compromise wherein the Corleone get to attack classical hero, so they don't feel threatened by the Stracchi. What ended up happening is they pull back the hit on classical because they realize if Scottish dies and the mafia are too few, it's game over and the townies win because there's no Don and the townies outnumber the mafia. This plus the Corleone quicktopics make me realize Backwards Logic and GamezRule were gunning for my head pretty much the entire time. Yikes and a half....


"Your Corleone pals, uh, they're not bad people. Maybe we, uh, outta give them a couple of days to think it over."

[shakes head]

"No?"

[looks surprised]

"Grease 'em now? Well, OK. You are a vicious man Backwards Logic, and, uh, I'm glad you're dead!"



The Joker- Batman(1989)

[Askthepizzaguy]

In summary of the above:

This game was not a happy love-fest filled with sunshine and trust and friendship. There was a lot of power struggle, diplomacy, threats, and bargaining happening which you folks could not see.

The Corleones and others who people seemed to assume were my pawns were anything but that. You guys have no idea how much resistance I actually had, because we put on a good public show of unity against the town. Behind the scenes, it was treachery, cloak, and dagger. Nobody trusted anyone.

Just as it should be.

[Chaotix]

Now that the game is over, you can believe me:

I really wasn't going to rebel against you that last time until I heard from Niklas you were trying to kill me anyway. I had sent in orders that night saying "switch my allegience to Clemenza". Before then I had been Pentangeli, but I wasn't working or coordinating with scottish - just keeping him from doing his solo kills, and leaving the option open for the Pentangeli plan that we eventually decided against.

But when I got the PM from Niklas, at that point I said to myself, "well, if he wants me dead, there's no point in just waiting to die," so I assisted Renata and Niklas in organizing that entire resistance, all in that one night. It wasn't planned in advance.

And I would've got away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling Double A... :clown:

That said, I am ultimately satisfied with the game experience. Even if victory was within grasp and snatched away, the character I played had a story that played out very poetically, all the way to the end. I started out as a basic townie, wanted to form my own family and become Capo - unable to put together my own group, I joined Sasaki's vig group, unknowing he was already the lone Pentangeli Made - kept contact with ATPG, constantly trying to play both sides off each other (more often trying to survive and pick the right side) - ultimately betrayed the Pentangeli on the very night I became a Made - learned I was being given a traitor's reward, and went out fighting instead. I intended to keep the "King of Hearts" red suit motif whether or not the Pentangeli actually survived, just as a stylistic choice and to distinguish myself from the rest of ATPG's goons.

Anyway, the ride there was as important as the end result for me.

Good game, ATPG.

And excellent hosting to GH and issaikhaan, as well as Seamus in the early-mid game before he had to leave. The game would not have been possible without you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well Chaotix, I truly wanted to believe you were loyal to us... it's just that you went from wanting to be Don of your own family, to allying with/betraying the Pentangeli, to transforming yourself into one of "my goons".

I just didn't buy the transformation. Once a Don, always a Don. You wanted to be Don, so I assumed you were a massive threat. And you were, once I assumed you were a massive threat. Self-fulfilling prophecy I suppose.

Sorry, truly sorry about getting it wrong about you. One can't ever be too careful. My paranoia served me so well last time...

Maybe someday I'll join you and serve you loyally and then you can forgive me for being a paranoid, backstabbing vicious little gremlin.



Good game all, thanks a billion to the game hosts. Nobody would have gotten to see any sort of resolution to the game without you, and Palpatine's plans would still be on the drawing board.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd like to respond to this one publicly:


I bet you're feeling like a man who has just been retired from a job he loved right now!

I disliked certain stretches of this game.... organizing groups was a pain in the butt, but more than that, I hated actually having to betray folks like Renata and so forth, to stay true to the character I chose to play. I needed to make those legitimate moves to accomplish what I set out to do, but they made me feel like a soulless, unrepentant, irredeemable blankety-blank. I felt like a hero in Capo III. Here, I feel like a guy who sold out his own mother. I guess that means I can play the part.... but it's just icky to me. I did more underhanded things in this game than all other games combined that I've played in, I think.

Also, while some may assume I feel pride at "my" accomplishment, I did virtually nothing in this game but ask people to do favors for me, and then asked others to do favors back. I barely did any kills, didn't protect anyone, and was generally told what I needed to know rather than having to go hunt for it myself (though I did deduce who a lot of people were on my own, roughly half). This was a team effort, I was just playing the quarterback position, or even a coach, this time. I went information hunting and used it to assist others, and myself.

I got as far as I did on the cooperation of others, their hard work, their kills, their protections, their votes, their loyalty. Any one of them fails to show up and all of a sudden I'm not Capo. This "Capo" thing is a great prize to strive for but everyone must realize that no one becomes Capo on their own merits. It's a consensus, elected position basically. I managed to convince a few folks that whatever leadership and organizing I did was noteworthy. But I never would have gotten here without literally dozens and dozens of other people, some of whom got betrayed and/or left behind.

They deserve acknowledgement. I didn't accomplish jack squat on my own, and I would not be Capo without each and every person who saved my life in one of the more recent rounds, and those who spared me on many rounds prior. And of course, without the lawyer role, I'd be long dead too. I'm very very tired and glad the game has resolved, actually. I would have welcomed my death in the latter rounds just so it looked like I tried hard but fell just a little short, as long as it ended the game. 117 players is too many... :dizzy2: What a marathon it was just to get there, let alone organize groups, negotiate, do long writeups.... all to justify my existence. At least others could say "I killed players A, B, C, and D, so I deserve to win!" What did I have? I needed to do everything else possible to say I was pulling my weight.

I learned from this game that people will accept you as their Don if you work very hard.... but if you come up short in almost any way, they want you dead as a doornail. You misplace their orders, forget to sanction something, get someone killed accidentally, or don't demonstrate strong visible leadership, nobody wants to be loyal to you. Being a Don is easy in some ways, very hard in others. You have to demonstrate why you're worthy of being Don, because everyone else wants it.

I am grateful that the job is done and I'll enjoy the win for sure. The part I really loved the most was being able to be openly scummy and thumb my nose at the town in such dramatic fashion... in a way I don't believe any scumbag has ever truly had the privilege before. In mafia most everyone is trying their best to act townie and trustworthy, here I just went the total opposite direction once Tincow said he had heard I was at the center of a mafia alliance to bring down the town. I knew the jig was up, and I also figured I'd survive one lynch. So I just went into exposed Palpatine mode and fully embraced the dark side. That was fun.

Should I ever be mafia again and facing death, that aspect will return. Pretending to be nice for the town is lame. Being openly scummy rules.

Yeah, I had fun. I hope others did too, in spite of my attempts to upset all their plans and generally be a menace. I'll be a nicer Pizza from now on, a reformed Pizza.... you'll still kill me every game right away for the next several months but I can change! I swear! Would I lie?

[guiri]

Well done ATPG, Clemenza, and the last surviving docs.

Thanks to the mods and directors for a fun game and great color. I wish I'd had more time to get behind the scenes and get more involved rather than simply accepting and following orders from whoever seemed to be working in Town's favor, maybe next time.

I hope to play the next Capo game!

[Krill]

Great thanks to Issaikhan, Generalhankerchief, and Seamus for hosting the best Mafia game I've ever played in or seen. Absolutely Fabulous.

Here is the list of my night orders:

1 - slysnake fail, (luck)
2 - Pharaoh, success
3 - slysnake, fail (luck)
4 - Drunk Clown, fail, (GM thought I was town not WG, given credit)
5 - Edse, fail (GM thought I was town not WG, given credit)
6 - Kagemusha, success, became Cunio Made
7 - Johnhughthom, success
8 - robbiecon, success
9 - Zim, success
10 - Scottishranger, fail, protected
11 - Craterus, success
12 - qlyphz, success,
13 - Beefy, fail, protected
14 - Psychonaut, success
15 - protect Kennigit, success
16 - Sigurd, success, Cunio Don vote failure
17 - fyremarble, success, create Clemenza
18 - Renata, fail, luck (Don Protection?)
19 - White Eyes, Success
20 - Protect Autolycus, inconclusive
21 - Protect Autolycus, success
22 - Protect ATPG, inconclusive. Game Ended.)

I got 2 successful protects, 11 successful kills that should have been 13 if Seamus hadn't had me down as a Townie when I was given the wiseguy starting PM. I didn't do any backstabbing or try to screw people over, I just wanted to get to the end game, which is one of the reasons I always sided with ATPG, I figured I was a safe bet to have in the end game because he'd want people that he knew probably weren't going to try to backstab him. And out of that comes a decisive victory.

ATPG, welcome to management. Looks like your on the job training is useful after all :p

[Jarema]

Good game. My first game at Fatlington, so I wil describe some thoughts and experiences...

First, a big bow before hosts.

As for my play, at first I tried hard to do something on my own. On first day, I tried to create a town-aligned group, and I stumbed at Earthling wgo was doing the same. We joined forces, but he died soon. Our group was functional, though. I made about 4 successfull protections with those people. Got a chance of becoming a doctor, but refused.Then, we realized that in our group we are ALL wiseguys... and people start thinking about going mafia.
I wanted to become a rogue detective at this moment, so I was searching for someone with whom I could kill. At this very moment, I made a contact with ATPG, because he advertized himself about coordinating group efforts. It changed my game.
At this moment, active part of game was over for me and I went with a flow.
After one kill, IIRC, ATPG asked me if I want to go mafia. It was the thoughest decision I had to make during whole game. I decided to join him at this effort, mostly because I did not believed that I had any strength to oppose him. From this moment, I was his 100% loyal underling. And, despite of not surviving, I win!!!
So, for me it was good, entertaining game. I had opportunity to be active on my self, and also an opportunity to be under someone's else guidance. I feel I did not make any mistakes in tis game, so I am also glad about my performance.

Thanks once more for this game!

And... congratulations, ATPG, Capo di Tutti Capi!

[classical_hero]

Also, CLASSICAL HERO WAS NOT A PLANT.

He really was trying to rebel against me! You silly bananas. :no:


Just like Diana Abnoba really wanted to backstab me good. You turned her down too. You know, sometimes even my closest friends want me dead after I'm a gigantic megalomaniacal jerkwad. It is possible they'd choose to betray me and you turned them down, how could you, how could you. :angry:I would have been a plant had you not been so paranoid and it nearly cost your chance becoming Capo. I was the first to join your crusade and yet you nearly allowed your distrust to get in the way. I personally did not want to become the Don, but I was going to be loyal to Diana had she ascended into the lead. The only reason it failed is there was not enough communication in the thread and it became basically pointless to follow so when the vote came down to it Double A did not read the thread where I proposed Diana as Donna. But I was always in his pocket, even though for some reason he did not see it that way. The only reason I even put up an attempt is that I was left out by ATPG and it so nearly cost him victory. The whole point of this game is the ability to trust those you are working with. Trust that should have been earned by some players was not given. But since ATPG knew that when he confronted me, we smoothed things out and things went they way they should have.

So here are things I did for the game. At first I was not decided on which side I would join, since I was open minded to see what side would be making the gains.
The first night I protected El Barto with with Backwards logic and Winston Hughes.
Night 2 I then killed El Barto instead of protecting him in a seven group vig and he dies.
Then night 3 I did my first work for ATPG with Krill and Camikaze to kill Skysnake, which didn't due to luck. The Irony about this kill is that earlier in the game Camikaze did PM about joining him, so I could have joined the Stracchi from the get go, so I could have been part of that family before ATPG got to me. This would have been an interesting proposition, since it would have changed my loyalties to to the Don rather than ATPG.
Night 4 I kill Drunk clown with Krill, but due to a mix up with the host the kill fails, but that is the host's fault. I get credit for the kill, but the player survives.
Night 5 I kill Drunk clown again with Xehh II, but this fails due to it being a solo attack, but i am not outed.
Night 6 I attack J.D. with Camikaze, but failed due to luck.
Night 7 I attack Drunk Clown with Jarema. After 3rd try, I succeed. :grin:
Night 8 I attack Mennon and he dies. After this one I become a made of the Stracchis
Night 9 I attack DCmort93 and he dies.
Night 10 I attack AggonyKing with both Jarema and Double A, instead of just Jarema the previous 3 nights and it is a success.
Night 11 I attack Chaotix with Double A, but the solo kill fails due to Double A not getting his order in time. I am not outed by the solo attempt.
Night 12 I attack Khazaar and he dies. Afterwards I become the Stracchis consigliere.
Night 13 I attack Scottishranger and he is wounded and off to Mercy Hospital.
Night 14 I attack Winston Hughes and he gets lucky.
Night 15 I attack Kennegit, but he is protected, so it fails.
Night 16 I attack gnarlycharlie succeeded but he was doubled hit, so the luck was taken away.
Night 17 I attack Clitsome with Double A and on previous nights from the 11th night and he dies.
Night 18 I attack Backwars Logic with Jarema and Xehh II and he dies.
Night 19 i attack Chaotix with Niklas and it fails due to lack of co-ordination. But he would have been dead earlier, but things go bad.
Night 20 I protect Autolycus with Krill and Diana Abnoda. He was not attacked so nothing happened.
Night 21 i attack Autolycus with Lazy and I die due to protection from a surgeon. The surgeon was meant to be there, but I was not meant to die. And that is what i did during my night. I certainly was a blood thristy killer. Only 2 nights out of 21 did I not try an kill someone.

So I have 10 successful hits, 3 fail due to luck, 2 fail due to solo attempts 1 due to lack of co-ordination, 2 to protect and 1 was just wounded. My 2 protect attempts failed due to not been attacked.

[landlubber]

Even though I probably was only alive for less than half of this game, it's still one of the best experiences I've had playing mafia.
ATPG, you're one of the most brilliant people I've ever played mafia with. Your ability to plan ahead, tell an immense web of lies that somehow makes perfect sense to everyone, and the way you can say just the right things to get people on your side... all of these are skills you have mastered.
When I was about to be lynched, and you approached me, I was reluctant at first. Eventually, however, I came to trust you, because it meant my survival. The rest of my family never really trusted you in any sense of the word. Because of this, we ended up sending you very obvious mixed signals. You then figured out what exactly was going on and promptly killed all of us. I don't blame them for anything; in fact, I have a lot of respect for them, because they would rather go down fighting than give up and join your side. I'd like to thank you for offering me sanctuary for that brief moment of time, though. Looking back, it was a very risky move for you to take, and you did it simply to help a struggling family. You've certainly earned a lot of respect from me this game.
Of course, a tip of the hat to Seamus, 'khaan, and GH. Fantastic job by your part. Thanks for everything you did to make this one of the best games in the history of mafia at the .org. :bow:

[Backwards Logic]

Congrats ATPG. A well-deserved win. Though as you've seen, you never had me fooled to what your intentions were. My failing was not shoving my ideas down my teammate's throats more forcibly. As for my teammates: Renata, Niklas, and Winston: It was an absolute blast to go back in time so to speak to the glory-filled NOTW days at CFC and scheme with the three of you again. After having not done it in forever, I realized just how much fun it is and hope we can do it again sometime soon. Winston - thanks for 'recruiting' me into the Corelone family - none of this happens without us going on a killing rampage at the midgame. Renata - thanks for pretty much trusting me from the onset of me joining the Corelone's. To be honest I was expecting some hesitation because of your general paranoia you can have at times, but we pretty much got down to business immediately. And Niklas - it was nice to see you come back and be the bad-ass everyone at CFC knows you are. It was fun to watch you work your magic. So maybe next time, you guys listen to the bloodthirsty maniac calling for ATPG's head since October?

Special thanks to Seamus for getting this massive game even off of the ground, and another round of props to GH and 'khaan for keeping this beast rolling. The transition was seamless and the execution superb. Well done!

Lastly:

"You are a vicious man Backwards Logic, and, uh, I'm glad you're dead!"

This is getting sig'd. :laugh4:

[SisterCoyote]

Given that my own personal goal was to survive to endgame, I'm shocked and happy to have achieved it.

Fun game, all, thank you very much, and Pizza you magnificent bastard.

[Frozen In Ice]

Congrats to the Clemenza and ATPG, and big thank you to the hosts. :bow:

I only wish I could have lived longer, I wanted so badly to become mafia, infiltrate Pizza's group, and then take Pizza down.:evil: Perhaps next time.

[scottishranger]

I guess I now have company as Capo's. Good game everybody, hope theres no hard feelings towards anyone!

As to my play, oh things could have gone so much better for me... If I had been allowed to take down Gamezrule and be elected to both the Pentangeli and Corleone donship I really do think that we could have beaten ATPG. No offense to Gamezrule, but I really dont think you managed the Corleone family well. Ah well whats done is done and no hard feelings. With a little more ruthlessness we could have won...

Renata, I was entirely serious that I was loyal to the Corleone family the entire time. When someone looks out for me, I look out for them. All it would have taken is a show of renewed trust and I would have been your man.

Anyways once again Congrats to ATPG, becoming Capo is a long and hard process, but oh it feels so sweet to win ;)

[gnarlycharlie]

so what i predicted has come to pass. not exactly the way it was done but the end result. i knew Pizza would off me eventually but went along for the ride. i'd never gone as far as i did if i tried to get him. i was just supposed to be cannon fodder. fate threw me a real curve.

congratulations Pizza. thanks to Seamus for setting it up. thanks to GH and Khaan for taking over. thanks everyone for a fun game. :bow:

[Choxorn]

So, what I did: I was attempting to go either Rogue Detective or Wiseguy from the start, because killing people is fun. :clown: I had a bit of trouble getting that done at first, all the people I contacted for the first few nights had organization problems. Kudos to ATPG for being able to get stuff done.

First few nights of doing nothing:

Night 1: Was originally supposed to protect Winston, but forgot to send in orders (and he wasn't attacked, so it didn't matter)
Night 2: Protect Subotan with Nightbringer, Cecil XIX, and Riedquat (Inconclusive, he wasn't attacked)
Night 3: Protect Diana with Sprig and Niklas (Inconclusive, she wasn't attacked)
Night 4: Unable to do anything on account of aforementioned organixation failure.

So yeah. :no:

On Night 5, I was among the many ATPG contacted asking us to do stuff. I replied as such:



Greetings folks.

Some of my group have dropped off or gone inactive, and I'm searching for more vigs or protectors.

If you've been having trouble finding groups, and/or would like to appear in the writeup for alibi purposes, and/or need a certain number additional successes for promotion, and would like assistance, contact me before night begins.

I may still have spaces after, but your best bet is contacting me before I send out actions.

I'm in a couple of groups that have never really done anything. :stare:

I'll gladly join one you're organizing.

Heck, I probably would have worked for him at this point even if I knew he was evil. :laugh4:

Back to my night actions:

Night 5: Attack Askthepizzaguy with Winston Hughes, Jarema, Raskolnikov, and Ibn-Khaldun (Fail, he was protected)
Night 6: Attack Nictel with Secura, ULC, Sigurd, issaikhaan, TheStranger, and Beskar (Success)
Night 7: Attack dcmort93 with BSmith, LazyMcCrow, robbiecon, Ibn-Khaldun, Niklas and qlyphz (Fail, target was Lucky)

The next two nights, my stay in Mercy made me incapable of doing anything, and then the mafia killed me. :stare: Come on, I totally would have joined you guys if you'd let me! It beats dying any day! :laugh4: Okay, I probably would have become afflicted with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, but still.

So yeah, I did nothing much the entire game, joined ATPG and took the red pill, and was immediately mafia-killed. Sigh, I only got one kill. I guess it's only appropriate that it was Nictel. :laugh4:

Oh yeah, and I also saw a bunch of people sending Pizza email adresses, so I decided to send him the one with the Smoking Gunman email with a bunch of weird wording just to see if anyone would actually respond. Nobody ever did. It pretty much had no effect on the game aside from me using it to email the Fatlington Police that ATPG was telling the truth about something. I then sent it to ATPG to post on the radio again to try to mess with people, which didn't work at all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Even though I probably was only alive for less than half of this game, it's still one of the best experiences I've had playing mafia.
ATPG, you're one of the most brilliant people I've ever played mafia with. Your ability to plan ahead, tell an immense web of lies that somehow makes perfect sense to everyone, and the way you can say just the right things to get people on your side... all of these are skills you have mastered.
When I was about to be lynched, and you approached me, I was reluctant at first. Eventually, however, I came to trust you, because it meant my survival. The rest of my family never really trusted you in any sense of the word. Because of this, we ended up sending you very obvious mixed signals. You then figured out what exactly was going on and promptly killed all of us. I don't blame them for anything; in fact, I have a lot of respect for them, because they would rather go down fighting than give up and join your side. I'd like to thank you for offering me sanctuary for that brief moment of time, though. Looking back, it was a very risky move for you to take, and you did it simply to help a struggling family. You've certainly earned a lot of respect from me this game.
Of course, a tip of the hat to Seamus, 'khaan, and GH. Fantastic job by your part. Thanks for everything you did to make this one of the best games in the history of mafia at the .org. :bow:

Yeah... I guess I can feel a tiny bit less like an evil evil, because no matter who you were, if you were struggling in this game and you approached me I tried to help where I could, or even if you didn't approach me and I approached you.

I wanted to get the Tataglia and the Barzini involved in the 3 family alliance. Their fate would have been the same; I'd have figured out who the Dons were and removed them, but the Mades would be welcome to advance to the next stage of the game, possibly join the winning family.

-----Commies:

Which reminds me; I was responsible for Ishmael's downfall for the communists, primarily to keep them in check. However, after that point they took a hit or two that I wasn't responsible for and I scrambled to find them some more recruits, especially recruits that could protect each other like doctors.

I failed in that regard, but only because so many people were unsusceptible. Sorry communists, I did try to help. I told others we were going to crush you because I had to tell everyone that we were going to crush someone. People sided with me because I promised to remove people other than themselves. I never really intended to wipe you guys out, as long as you stayed loyal.

OTLD siding with the Insurrection meant that he would have been the next lynch, today, in spite of my promise to Visorslash. As for shlin28, well he wasn't really a communist and he appeared guilty on a night when there was a strange killing, so.... he had to go. But you guys needed him dead anyway.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Given that my own personal goal was to survive to endgame, I'm shocked and happy to have achieved it.

Fun game, all, thank you very much, and Pizza you magnificent bastard.

SisterCoyote, you were never in danger from me. You followed me from the beginning, became a doctor, protected my life, I trusted you.

You risked things a bit siding with the Insurrection, but I understood that. Your only "error" in my mind, which was a perfectly legit move.

I didn't want to kill you and I knew you'd be safe with the townie survivors. You had no enemies, least of all me.

At the end the people I thought about removing were Beefy due to his voting inactivity and I dont think he got his 5 protects anyway, OTLD for going inactive/siding against me, DIY for being a big ole pain in the booty (as it should be), and even LazyMcCrow.

I had a little bit of paranoia about Lazy joining the Clemenza and then wiping us all out at the end due to some hidden game mechanic of infiltrating a faction and surviving to the end.... the serial killer goes nuts and destroys the mafia.

That's what I would have added to the role if I was the game creator. Make someone pay for not catching the SK.

I decided it was creative but a long shot and if he won that way, so be it. I relied on him to survive the tie-round so I owe him the win anyway.

[gibsonsg91921]

I'm just happy I survived so long. And I get a close victory, I think! Go Mafia! Amazing game, Seamus, GH, and khaan!

[Askthepizzaguy]

The next two nights, my stay in Mercy made me incapable of doing anything, and then the mafia killed me. :stare: Come on, I totally would have joined you guys if you'd let me! It beats dying any day! :laugh4: Okay, I probably would have become afflicted with Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, but still.

So yeah, I did nothing much the entire game, joined ATPG and took the red pill, and was immediately mafia-killed. Sigh, I only got one kill. I guess it's only appropriate that it was Nictel. :laugh4

Reason we targeted you was because you weren't having much success advancing and we needed cannon fodder to promote others.

If you had been more successful, you'd have been along for the ride.

A lot of people were targeted for the reason they weren't wiseguy yet, or weren't active enough.... folks who I felt I couldn't rely on in the endgame because they kept missing orders, or if they strayed from my night action groups, or if they couldn't get the job done for any reason. It didn't even have to be your fault, you just needed to lag behind the pack in terms of promotions, and then like a predator thinning out the herd, you'd be taken down for being slower than the others.

One of the things I hated was having to pick the people who died. In general, look at my kills.... who died early?

1) Non-voters
2) Non-talkers
3) Lurkers
4) Folks who talked too much about fight club (ACIN wouldn't shut his yap about what we were doing!) :stare:
5) Folks who weren't advancing very far down any path
6) Folks who weren't wiseguys yet


You become a wiseguy and work for me, that's your golden ticket generally. Sigurd struggled and it broke my heart when he got eaten by the communists and I couldn't rely on him anymore.

For reference, here's the kind of :daisy: I sent people (before I got exposed, even!) to try to recruit them into the mafia.





Strange, Sigurd... While I was NOT responsible for either Xenon or Arjos' death [arjos being one of my loyal action group peoples, Xenon being no threat to us], I am extremely surprised by your continued insistence that you're communist.

You know I got Earthling lynched because of that sorta thing. Why do you continue with the charade?

I'm not buying it, so why do it? You're a good man Sigurd, explain what your thought process is.
Truthful?
I am winging it...
And I hope doing so that I'll make a leap in play style.
I am known for creating cover roles while being scum. I haven't done so while being town. Thought I'll try something in the sheer boredom of being a townie in Capo. :inquisitive:
I don't know if there are any real commies in the game and you who know me, know that I am full of bull. There are however many who don't know me and thinks this is the real deal :sneaky: I am even sending out welcome to the KGB PMs.
I even got a doctor in my cover organization. He might be working with you though.
There are two that I am not sure about.. who are reluctant to answer my calls.
We'll see, maybe I am making a trap for scum by comparing responses from "my men" when I challenge them.

Besides, I think it wise to not let you monopolize the town effort. :dizzy2:

This is Capo de Tutti Capi after all. :yes:


Sigurd









A "leap" in play style....












Sigurd, you disappoint me.










You say "boredom of being townie" while lying about your true identity.






That tells me that you have no love for the town. :stare:





That you find no joy in the harmonious, regimented, forced death marches of pro-town groups, :stare:




smoothly and fanatically organized by the once again self-appointed

pro-town dictator and supertownie extraordinaire,

Fuhrer Askthepizzaguy. :stare:






And I vill not tolerate zees kind of disobedience in my ranks! :stare:



I vill destroy anyvone who opposes Director Askzeepizzaguy! :stare:











What? you don't want to be my mindless puppet Sigurd? Why not? :stare:


What? You play these games to actually have fun? :stare:


Wouldn't you rather go mafia.... :yes:









You know, become a Made Gangster...


live the good life....


eat steak...


and lobster....


dipped in buttery batter


and covered in thousand dollar bills?


Wouldn't you rather bathe in a swimming pool


filled with naked, giggling women?














Wouldn't you rather form a nice hit squad and shut that infernal, incessant, insufferable Pizza up for good?



:evil:



Don't you yearn in your heart for a life of freedom from his tyrannical rule?



:evil:



Don't you want to become more than just a goody-goody lackey?




:evil:




Don't you want to achieve the dream?





:evil:





The dream 2 years in the making.... of finally having it all.... and overthrowing that PRETENTIOUS SMUG LITTLE JERK PIZZAGUY FOREVER!?!??!






:evil:






THAT DREAM HE DENIED YOU?


He could have had it all, but he had to throw it all away and be some "townie" who doesn't know how to have a good, good time.


HE WASN'T EVEN A TOWNIE,


HE WAS A STINKING NEUTRAL!!


A NEUTRAL!!!!







Click for theme music. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgAHQdmL96A)









Yes.... you want this.... I can feel your anger. It gives you focus. Makes you stronger.

Are you going to kill me, Sigurd? I know you would certainly like to.

Well, you had your chance last night.

You and the others.

I was unarmed.

I was vulnerable.

I was just asking for it.

Take your weapons,

strike me down with them,

give in to your anger,

and take your rightful place as leader of this corrupt, rotten little town.

Turn it into a gangster's paradise.

Yes.... the hate is swelling in you now....

with each passing moment you make yourself more my Made Gangster.

You...

like all the others...

are now....


MINE.



_______________________





Wanna go mafia instead? Tis a lot more fun and I should know, what with openly taunting the town with my trenchcoat and fedora and tommy gun. Firing at whoever I wish at night in open defiance of the town. You know, organizing vigilante groups for the purposes of making wiseguys.

Making doctors for the purposes of protecting Mades and Wiseguys

and Lucas

and Dons who have no protection,

Doctors who will later go mafia.

Or how about just plain old wasting people's time protecting nothing of importance?

Yes.... how about that, Sigurd. Do you like that? Does it make your skin tingle with excitement?

How about turning everyone in sight into a gangster, and funneling them all directly toward my three, count them up, ONE, TWO, THREEEEEEE mafia family contacts.

How about that, Sigurd? Doesn't that sound like a whole lot more FUN. :brood:

Now, will you join me, or am I just wasting my valuable time, Sigurd? :stare:

I await your response.







Turn me over to the jedi council, and you'll have defeated me.....


but you won't be able to stop the coming storm.


I am the mafia.


I will make you or destroy you, in life, or in death.


There is no escape.



Join me, and together we can rule Fatlington as Sigurd and Askthepizzaguy...


the way it was always meant to be....


the way it should have gone....


Now.....


Take your rightful place at my side.


Learn to use the dark side of the force.


Don't make me destroy you....





This is Capo de tutti Capi after all....

~:pimp:




Okay so I was a bit of an overly theatrical megalomaniac but you can't deny I threw myself into character.

Sigurd could have just posted this in the public thread and you'd all know I wrote it and therefore lynch me, and found out I was being protected from that, and then the night actions would have started on me....

I risked a lot being such an openly evil bastard. Still, nobody exposed me until GeneralHankerchief had the inclination to do so. After that things got even easier for me because everyone wanted to be mafia except for folks like Erebus and Reidquat and Populus Romanus etc... everyone else wanted to have an openly evil scumbag to turn to and they wanted connections to the mafia.

That is what I sought to be, the gateway from town to scum, the portal between good and evil, the golden ticket to freedom and villainy. And for a time, that's what I was. And then I cranked up the evil all the way to eleven and became the main menace, so people would have someone they needed to defeat in order to win.

They came close, well fought.



Also that's enough Star Wars references already, Pizzaguy. :no:

[DaveShack]

I thought from about the 3rd day or so that ATPG was a don at that point, because he was the first (and almost only) one to contact me about the lynch protection. I guess the Dons didn't want to contact me directly? And maybe they neglected to pass on the codeword?

My role prevented me from winning directly as Capo, because I couldn't follow the wiseguy->made->don path. I was actually quite willing to contact the governor for any mafioso, but aside from ATPG the only one who actually contacted me about it was Renata. I stayed true to my word that I wasn't solely in Pizza's pocket, and would have been willing to protect Renata if asked -- but ironically one of my kids got sick and I would have missed the orders deadline. I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as I took a bit of pride in playing honorably to the extent that someone mafia-aligned can. My VC was to protect a member of the winning family, so it would have been beneficial to get a protection in on every family to hedge my bets.

As became common knowledge about 2/3 of the way in, at least among those who were in the "3 family" QT, I could have caused a 2nd place lynch if my lynch prediction was correct. One of the other mafia could have taken Pizza down by surprise via that mechanic, but nobody tried it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I thought from about the 3rd day or so that ATPG was a don at that point, because he was the first (and almost only) one to contact me about the lynch protection. I guess the Dons didn't want to contact me directly? And maybe they neglected to pass on the codeword?

My role prevented me from winning directly as Capo, because I couldn't follow the wiseguy->made->don path. I was actually quite willing to contact the governor for any mafioso, but aside from ATPG the only one who actually contacted me about it was Renata. I stayed true to my word that I wasn't solely in Pizza's pocket, and would have been willing to protect Renata if asked -- but ironically one of my kids got sick and I would have missed the orders deadline. I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as I took a bit of pride in playing honorably to the extent that someone mafia-aligned can. My VC was to protect a member of the winning family, so it would have been beneficial to get a protection in on every family to hedge my bets.

As became common knowledge about 2/3 of the way in, at least among those who were in the "3 family" QT, I could have caused a 2nd place lynch if my lynch prediction was correct. One of the other mafia could have taken Pizza down by surprise via that mechanic, but nobody tried it.

DaveShack I love you and I want to have your babies.

[Choxorn]

Reason we targeted you was because you weren't having much success advancing and we needed cannon fodder to promote others.

If you had been more successful, you'd have been along for the ride.

A lot of people were targeted for the reason they weren't wiseguy yet, or weren't active enough.... folks who I felt I couldn't rely on in the endgame because they kept missing orders, or if they strayed from my night action groups, or if they couldn't get the job done for any reason. It didn't even have to be your fault, you just needed to lag behind the pack in terms of promotions, and then like a predator thinning out the herd, you'd be taken down for being slower than the others.

One of the things I hated was having to pick the people who died. In general, look at my kills.... who died early?

1) Non-voters
2) Non-talkers
3) Lurkers
4) Folks who talked too much about fight club (ACIN wouldn't shut his yap about what we were doing!) :stare:
5) Folks who weren't advancing very far down any path
6) Folks who weren't wiseguys yet


http://philosophistry.com/scans/2010/okay-face.jpg

You certainly could have relied on me, seeing as you'd helped me a lot, even if all the other mafia could probably reasonably expect me to be a Blu Spy, a Red Spy, and a Green Spy.

And come on, attacking me on Night 7 when I was only one hit away? Surely there were some more lurkers to kill at that point.

[Death is yonder]

So ends the long and epic tale of a saga, bathed in blood.

Definitely a big thank you to GH and 'khaan for stepping up, and making this end-game even possible, and of course, to Seamus for even conceptualizing and dealing with the starting game activity and solo-managing 117 people, amazing :bow:

Congratulations to ATPG as well, the master weaver of intricate webs, for his well-earned victory.

This game I guess I'm just thankful that I didn't get offed like Night 2 such as in the previous iteration of the series, and whilst I was generally following along ATPG for the first half of the game, things got really interesting afterwards.

I think definitely, many of my plans to pit the mafia against the other mafia was foiled, but other than a few booboos I think that we gave the Corleone the much needed protections more often than not and very nearly gave ATPG a run for his money, and to that end, I am glad that the end game wasn't a walkover as might have been expected.

I'd like to thank all the chaps who were working with me in the townie side, though it seemed insurmountable at many times: Beefy, sturm, Erebus, guiri, edse, Populus, BillMC and any others. Whilst Seon was sometimes arguably a sneaky chap who was probably working with ATPG, I just want to thank him as well, and also SisterCoyote for sticking with us in that near-decisive round where ATPG was almost lynched. And of course, the Corleone chaps: Niklas, Renata, BL, Winston, GE. Talked a fair bit with them and tried to accommodate them as best as could be allowed, and while they were of course planning to backstab us if they had the chance to, it was good to have nearly snatched victory from the jaws of defeat together :bow:

Admittedly I was a tad disappointed that sturm was selected for the lynch because just a while before that, he had finally passed over leadership to me, expressing how that task was becoming more of a chore. I encouraged him to go and have himself some fun and it was quite saddening that that bright spark of his was extinguished so swiftly after that event. Still, his leadership was invaluable it was definitely a pleasure to work with him and the other townies (and mafia) :wink:

In the end, I'm just happy that I managed to stay true to the path that I envisioned for myself, and also managed to cause some grief to the various mafia factions, despite our very limited resources and comparatively limited intel. Not to mention, if not for that meddling lawyer and those papers (:stare:), I would have managed to help incite a successful lynch on ATPG twice :tongue:

An interesting gem from Night 5 from myself to Seamus, before pizza revealed his intentions :wink:


Just for the record, I'm rather suspicious of pizza's attempts to protect Sigurd and more so because of some of the exchanges where he had with me & the protection group when we attempted to inquire why Sigurd would be protected, especially so when GH seemed to imply that Sigurd would be vigged last night phase.

Of course in retrospect Sigurd wasn't vigged, but now thanks to pizza's response and very vehement attempts to pass it off as a joke, despite the fact that Tincow's reasoning being quite compelling (and very queer responses and strongly attacking reasoning that argued against potentially conflicting orders with the director), I feel like investigating him, but wonder what the result will potentially be.

The results came back that he was criminal, so in retrospect while I didn't really do much about the result, it definitely influenced my decision to go against ATPG when the time came. Maybe wrong reasons with the right results, but t'was fun to figure out that my suspicion was justified when the chips came down :laugh4:

Good game :bow:

[Erebus]

Congratz Pizza and team.

Thanks GH, 'khan and Seamus for hosting.

I had fun.

[Askthepizzaguy]

For the record newcomers: I don't usually have such an iron grip on things and when they lynch me I usually freaking die.

Don't give up, keep playing here!

[Montmorency]

Hey, so are you going to get back to participating in games other than Capo, now? :sleepy:

[Askthepizzaguy]

So, over the course of the game, the Anachronism Hour with DJ Saucy Slice made sort of a Capo IV soundtrack. Here it is.



1. Saliva- Ladies and Gentlemen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yQ0FBFGZuyA) [Day One, 9/12]
2. Guns N Roses- Paradise City (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mN3hH8LG4Yw) [Day Two, 9/15]
3. Lipps Inc- Funkytown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=liuCTk2nPG8) [Day Three, 9/18]
4. P.O.D.- Youth of the nation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0lI_YSFjhgY) [Day Four, 9/21]
5. Metallica- Seek and Destroy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NUAdgt5Glk0) [Day Five, 9/24]
6. Evanescence- What you want (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cm8SsH8CDKQ) [Day Five, 9/25]
7. Nine Inch Nails- The Hand that Feeds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GS-SOhoX-vU) [Day Six, 9/27]
8. Hollywood Undead- Been to Hell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ThU1v29dcs4) [Day Seven, 10/1]
9. Alice in Chains- Rooster (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hfkU4Moee84) [Day Seven, 10/3]
10. Rage against the Machine- Bulls on Parade (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cjEu4piLKww) [Day Eight, 10/11]
11. Five Finger Death Punch- The Bleeding (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mo1JExiw2f8) [Day Nine, 10/15]
12. Drowning Pool- Bodies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uh9dQkew0h0) [Day Ten, 10/18]
13. Foo Fighters- Walk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NPwLvvWHD0s) [Day Eleven, 10/23]
14. Volbeat- A Warrior's Call (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W7qOph7zJlk) [Day Twelve, 10/26]
15. Adelita's Way- Invincible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QjpfwDlVC5o) [Night Twelve, 10/27]
16. Disturbed- Another way to die (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sWlpJqiCejc) [Day Thirteen,10/28]
17. Megadeth- Public Enemy No. 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JNXISRtrwrk) [Day Fourteen, 11/2]
18. Cypress Hill- Rock Superstar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=buZ_Bm58DNM) [Day Fifteen, 11/5]
19. Papa Roach- No Matter What (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KH2_8phi8Q8) [Day Sixteen, 11/8]
20. Godsmack- Realign (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wbyUST2gOn8) [Day Seventeen 11/11]
21. Metallica- One (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sXPkmIwwobA) [Night Eighteen 11/18]
22. Pop Evil- Monster You Made (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G17bq3haGc) [Night Twenty, 11/24]
23. Adelita's Way- The Collapse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PGVyenDWVfc) [Day Twenty-One, 11/28]
24. The Offspring- The Kids Aren't Alright (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HxkZBlTYeds) [Day Twenty-Three, 12/3]

BONUS TRACKS

25. Dr. Evil- Hard Knock Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh_ex3VGHIM) [hilarious, but couldn't find a place to put it.]
26. Rihanna- Umbrella (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcKaTTFRDT4&feature=related) [Director campaign theme song. "Umbrella" references my kill method in Capo III, IV]
27. Redlight King- Bullet in my hand (https://www.youtube.com/) [Would have been track 24, but could not find censored version of the song. TOO HOT for the .org] So only a link to youtube is allowed.
28. Godsmack- Awake (https://www.youtube.com/) [Would have used this song when I survived a lynch, but again, couldn't find censored version. TOO HOT for the .org]
29. Motorhead- The Game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_JF8oSxXtM) [Wanted to use this somewhere... never got around to it.]
30. Globus- Preliator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q6skxRLnsI&feature=player_embedded#!) ["Emperor's" theme I used to tempt Sigurd]

And one for the road:

31. Pearl Jam- Alive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGiTPgvKktM) [For those of you who survived the game]





Obviously the songs I chose have meaning, and the meaning is usually fairly obvious. I tend to highlight the part of the lyrics I had in mind during those posts.



1. Saliva- Ladies and Gentlemen [Day One, 9/12]

This song is meant to welcome everyone to the game and tell people to keep an eye on me. I intended to put on a special performance this time.

2. Guns N Roses- Paradise City [Day Two, 9/15]

This song essentially gives a status report for the town. The happier and more upbeat the songs, the better the townies are doing. The darker and harder the song, the better the mafia are doing. I follow this pattern for many, many rounds. Fatlington by day two is essentially a townie's paradise, hence... Paradise City.

3. Lipps Inc- Funkytown [Day Three, 9/18]

Town still doing just fine, but things are getting interesting behind the scenes. By now, I've made a bunch of mafia contacts.

4. P.O.D.- Youth of the nation [Day Four, 9/21]

The townies are starting to bleed a bit. The first major violence is happening and the song is a bit less upbeat. The lyrics imply that many good people are getting gunned down.

5. Metallica- Seek and Destroy [Day Five, 9/24]

By now the mafia recruitment and kills are getting into full swing. The number of murders increased from here and people were doing lots of vig kills to become mafia.

6. Evanescence- What you want [Day Five, 9/25]

By now, I'm hinting very heavily to everyone that they should choose their own path no matter what... because thinking you've got to stay townie when you could advance to wiseguy, I felt, was trapping people. You should play the game any way you like, choose a career and go all the way, baby. I of course thought you should go mafia, but hey, some folks went doctor and did okay.

7. Nine Inch Nails- The Hand that Feeds [Day Six, 9/27]

This one is fairly obvious. Would the townies bite the hand that feeds them, or would they stay down on their knees? I was both a provider of organization, but also their main nemesis. So I'm dropping big ole hints about that here.

8. Hollywood Undead- Been to Hell [Day Seven, 10/1]

"I'm a wolf among the sheep" was very clear. I was announcing to the world that I was scummy, scummy scummy. Fitting that this round, Tincow and GH outed me pretty good. And of course, that leads to my lynch, and....

9. Alice in Chains- Rooster [Day Seven, 10/3]

This is my freaking theme song now. Ain't found a way to kill me yet!

10. Rage against the Machine- Bulls on Parade [Day Eight, 10/11]

This one is also very obvious. I was inviting people to "Rally round the Family" so, I wanted them to go mafia with me.

11. Five Finger Death Punch- The Bleeding [Day Nine, 10/15]

Ummmmm.... like 17 people got attacked night eight. So, the crying, the bleeding, the screaming.... this one isn't subtle either.

12. Drowning Pool- Bodies [Day Ten, 10/18]

More of the same. Massive death tolls every night. The mafia is in full kill everything mode. Still took a while to cut down the townie numbers!

13. Foo Fighters- Walk [Day Eleven, 10/23]

I make a play for the Directorship, because, "I never wanna die". The Directorship would protect me at night better than any Luca or Doctor. Me gaining the Directorship is pretty bad news for the town.

14. Volbeat- A Warrior's Call [Day Twelve, 10/26]

This is where the Barzini, Pentangeli, and other families start getting into it with the Stracchi/Cunio etc. The mafia wars really begin around this point.

15. Adelita's Way- Invincible [Night Twelve, 10/27]

I become Director, that plus the Lawyer means "Invincible" is fairly fitting.

16. Disturbed- Another way to die [Day Thirteen,10/28]

We had attacked Crazed Rabbit the night prior, and he survived, so we needed to find him another way to die...

17. Megadeth- Public Enemy No. 1 [Day Fourteen, 11/2]

This is in reference to so many folks wanting me dead, dead, dead, and there I was sitting in the Director's chair, immune from the police. Worst case scenario for the townies, really.

18. Cypress Hill- Rock Superstar [Day Fifteen, 11/5]

This one, with the altered lyrics, is an open invitation to everyone capable of doing so, to make a grab for Capo di Tutti Capi.

19. Papa Roach- No Matter What [Day Sixteen, 11/8]

This one was right after I instructed the Corleones how to spare themselves from not one, two, but three deaths at the same time that night. I was sort of throwing myself into the role of peacemaker. Of course, later on, I'd reverse that position again. The lyrics reference making it out of this place alive. So cheesy. So hammy. "Nothing can take us down tonight..." and "we will make it out alive..." what lies. What horrible lies.

20. Godsmack- Realign [Day Seventeen 11/11]

Here's where I decided to turn my back on the Cunio Don and forge my own family. Realign is quite literally what I was doing. So gnarlycharlie died and myself and Krill and Neri went and realigned as Clemenza.

21. Metallica- One [Night Eighteen 11/18]

This was posted just before I attacked the Corleone with full force. The result was intended for them to be dead or hopelessly crippled, and the lyrics allude to that.

22. Pop Evil- Monster You Made [Night Twenty, 11/24]

This one's obvious. The lyrics are also a bit of me, OOC, responding to my horrible behavior as Don Clemenza. But of course I couldn't become the monster that I was without dozens of players who enabled me to become that. So the lyrics have meaning there as well. It's not just the monster I've become, but the monster you made me.

23. Adelita's Way- The Collapse [Day Twenty-One, 11/28]

These lyrics are admittedly pretty harsh, but if they're viewed from an IC perspective from Don Clemenza, it makes a lot more sense. Pulling the strings, etc, is fitting because of how Clemenza controlled his empire. The Collapse also refers to the final destruction of the town resistance.

24. The Offspring- The Kids Aren't Alright [Day Twenty-Three, 12/3]

How can one little street swallow so many lives?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Brief fill-in cohost's commentary:

I'm not really sure what there is to say, really. This was never my game in the first place - khaan and I were just caretakers. Because of this I feel less comfortable about talking about its balancing issues, compared to my actual games where I happily take a hacksaw and chop away afterwards.

Also, I sent an email to Seamus letting him know the game was done, so hopefully he'll pop up here and offer his own thoughts, and I don't want to steal his thunder. :sweatdrop:

That said, I deliberately decided to be kept out of the loop for this game for a couple reasons. Yes, I transitioned as an impartial observer once I put the cohost's hat on... but I still really freaking wanted ATPG to die. Of course I wanted him to die. I had been gunning all-out for him for a few IRL days before and things were about to come to a head. Every single bit of information I had received only served to show me how solidified ATPG's position was.

How do you successfully run a game when you're actively rooting against one of its biggest players? Keep your head down, execute orders, and stay out of the loop. I think I more or less accomplished this.

Host GH isn't surprised by this result, but Player GH is disappointed. It all seemed so... anticlimactic.

That's really all I have to say about things. Again, I stayed out of the loop, so there really isn't any behind-the-scenes antics that I can shed light on. I'll let the game speak for itself. That's the way it ought to be, really.

khaan will have more to say about things, but the one issue we both had issue with was the inclusion of DaveShack's "Shyster" character. This is nothing against Dave, he won basically the highest level of victory possible and then some and played brilliantly, but we both feel very strongly about lynch-blockers and just the sanctity of the lynch in general. If you're lynched, you should be dead, period. It's the one finality in mafia games: No matter what happens, if you screw up here, there's no coming back from it. Anything that messes with the lynch (not vote-changing, the actual lynch) is far too overpowered.

All that said, congratulations to the Capo and all of the other winners. It was a well-earned victory and I was glad to be able to step in and see the game through. :bow:

[Ishmael]

If you wouldn't mind DaveShack, would you be able to post your role PM?

[Askthepizzaguy]

This post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137953-Capo-di-Tutti-Capi-IV-Concluded&p=2053402324&viewfull=1#post2053402324) has been updated with more info about the song selection. Took me a while.



And yes, I want to see DaveShack's role PM, and LazyMcCrow's role PM, and Kagemusha's role Pm. PLEASE!! Those people had the really interesting roles.

And Andres' role Pm would be nice, since he was the Special Agent. BTW I didn't kill Tincow, Arjos, Andres, and a whole host of other really pro-town roles. Somehow, others got really lucky in that regard. I didn't betray you, Andres. I wanted to help the guy, actually.... because I think he was looking for either LazyMcCrow or Oh!TheLastDays, one of those two was probably his target. methinks OTLD was it, but I don't honestly know.

[shlin28]

What a game! Thanks to Seamus, GH and Khaan :) Was a great read despite being out of the loop on basically everything :P

[classical_hero]

Paradise City is not a positive song. Which perfectly described the town as a paradise city.

Am I the only one who hears "The Game" and thinks of Hunter Hearst Helmsley?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Am I the only one who hears "The Game" and thinks of Hunter Hearst Helmsley?

That's where I heard the song from originally. Come to think of it, I don't know of any other songs by Motorhead that I like or..... know of in the first place. :tongue2:

[Kagemusha]

Here is my role pm.I was supposed to be a compelled killer of sorts. Though i feel that a good role was wasted and someone more active might have done very well in it.For me this was my low point in Capo history.Real life hampered me quite completely and i think i may have sent one or two set of orders in the game before i was killed.I havent followed the game.But once i have time i will surely read what happened at fatlington this time.In any case congratulations to the winners!:bow::


OOC Okay shadow warrior, random.org decided you get the toughest role play -- the compelled killer. Good luck!

This entire sheet of information is to be considered secret and is not to be revealed to other players unless specifically noted in the sheet below or with the express permission of the host.

Role: Compelled Serial Killer

Alignment: Townie, sort of

Summary: You are actually the nicest of persons…mostly. You just have this odd little quirk about helping others. Once you have helped them, it is necessary in the interest of cosmic justice for some of them to pay with their lives. You find this little quirk of yours embarrassing and frustrating – heaven knows it’s not something you really enjoy – but things just have to happen that way.

Victory Conditions: Your victory conditions are the same as those of your cover role. In addition, however, the following modifiers apply:
• If you manage to kill more than three players because of your primary compulsion you add two steps to your victory level.
• If you kill two or three players because of your primary compulsion you add one step to your victory level.
• If you kill more than five persons in your serial killer persona you add one step to your victory level.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. You may not attempt to fight off a lynch vote. You can respond with something akin to “I don’t wish to be lynched” or “Please don’t,” but may not mount a true defense. Feel free to have others defend you if you can.

Nightime:

Active Actions: You will have the abilities of your cover role, and:

1. On the first two nights out of every three night sequence, you must exercise your cover (Doctor) persona’s protection ability normally. You may not, however, participate in a townie vigilante or other kill group.

2. On each successive third night (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.) you must attempt to kill one of your previous two night’s protectees (1st and 2nd night as target for 3rd; 4th or 5th for 6th etc.). If both are dead already, you will instead attempt to kill the 3rd place vote getter of the previous day’s lynch voting (you may attempt to kill up to 3 persons if more than one were tied for 3rd place in the lynch voting). This is your primary compulsion. All of your serial killer kills must have a consistent theme – this can be a repeated symbol, slogan or method. Ideally it should reflect the psychological motivation for your killings. Have fun.

3. If 3 attacks fail on the same target, or if the same target is protected successfully when you attack for three times, or if you are prevented from 3rd night kill efforts either by role blocking, directorship or some other intervening factor; you will suicide.

Passive Actions: You have none, unless specified by the secret abilities and traits PM.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If investigated by a made or detective, your status is likely to be “innocent,” as per your cover role. It is possible that the role-screening component of such an investigation may discover you, but it is more likely that they will discover your cover role instead. Repeat investigations of the same player carry a progressively greater chance of penetrating your cover role or even your true role.

2. If an investigation is launched on you during a 3rd night, your status will come back “unclear.” This may prove to be a source of risk.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may progress as usual.

[classical_hero]

That's where I heard the song from originally. Come to think of it, I don't know of any other songs by Motorhead that I like or..... know of in the first place. :tongue2:I am a big wrestling fan. :grin:

[DaveShack]

Here's my role PM.


The entirety of the following role sheet is to be considered RED material and revealed only under the circumstances outlined in the role sheet below or with the permission of the host.

Role: Shyster

Alignment: Mafia-aligned, no particular family.

Summary: Your real name is Storto Avocato, though you’ve taken pains to hide this fact. You seem to be nothing more than a typical small city attorney, but in reality you’ve been on retainer to The Commission for years. It is your job to smooth out difficulties for the mafia. You are not a person for “wetwork,” and you want to maintain your image of upstanding citizen while working quietly for the mafia to win. You may be contacted by the mafia family Dons to help them at their request, but you have no knowledge of their identities at the outset.

Victory Conditions: Use the chart below:

Decisive victory = one mafia family conquers Fatlington after you have saved one or more of their personnel.
Clear victory = one mafia family conquers Fatlington but did not use your assistance
Close victory = The town defeats the mafia but you have saved two or more mafia personnel.
Neither side wins = draw.
Close defeat = The town defeats the mafia, but you save one Mafioso.
Clear defeat = The town defeats the mafia; you save no Mafiosi.
Decisive defeat = The town defeats the mafia; you save no Mafiosi, and you are killed.
• Your personal survival moves you two steps up on this scale.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. All Five Mafia Dons know your name, but their subordinates do not (at the outset). In contacting you, a Don should use the codeword “Santino.”

3. As a continuation of one of your passive night actions, you may need to contact the host before the end of lynch voting with your decision. This is not an ability you have at the start.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save he r/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If only 1 townie attempts a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and the townie has a 1 in 6 chance of dying (50%) or being revealed by name (50%) in that failed attempt.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you can form a vigilante group (5 required) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If only 1 townie attempts a kill, that effort fails and the townie has a 1 in 6 chance of dying (50%) or being revealed by name (50%) in that failed attempt.

Passive Actions

1. Each night you may submit the name of one player who you suspect will be lynched the next day. If that player leads in the voting, a special message from the governor will prevent that player being lynched (that time). You will be credited with a save. After three such saves, you will gain the option to cause the lynching of the second place vote getter in place of the expected lynch target at your discretion. You must PM your decision on whether or not to lynch the second place recipient BEFORE the conclusion of lynch voting for that day.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated by a detective, you will be evaluated as “innocent.” After saving three persons from a lynch, you will register as “unclear.” If you are involved in a successful killing, you will register as “guilty” thereafter.

Role Changing: You may not change roles. Your cover role may appear to change roles as a camouflage, but you will not be able to exceed standard townie active abilities.


My first game on this site, a huge one, and randomization hands me this beauty. Yes, I agree it bordered on too powerful, at least in traditional mafia terms. But it fits right in with the theme, and I think it would be fine to reuse occasionally. Perhaps a slight nerf in the form of only being able to protect an individual once.

[Double A]

What was your red text, Kage?

[Reenk Roink]

Didn't play and didn't follow the game but I can't say I'm surprised with the end result. Congrats to Atpg and his family. :bow: Wish I could have been there in Fatlington.

[Kagemusha]

What was your red text, Kage?

There you go:


Special Trait: Chameleon

You have always been able to charm people, dazzle them with bovine excrement, and have always had a skill at planting things to “pad your resume.” This allows you the ability to camouflage your investigation results to read as you wish them to read. For one night – b.s. has a short shelf life – you will display status results as you wish to: innocent, criminal, unclear, or even guilty. You will also temporarily decrease the investigator’s ability to penetrate your role. You may do this twice during the game.

[Double A]

Same as me. Don't think I ever got scanned, though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Didn't play and didn't follow the game but I can't say I'm surprised with the end result. Congrats to Atpg and his family. :bow: Wish I could have been there in Fatlington.

You were. You made at least one appearance in I think Seamus or Generalhankerchief's writeups involving Club 30. :bow: In classic Reenk mode, of course.











My role PMs and Red Text:

Wiseguy unaligned (STARTING ROLE)

Role: Wisseguy(gal)

Alignment: Unaligned

Summary: You’ve always played by your own rules when you could. A boring 9-5 and a gold watch after half your life never appealed to you. Maybe you’ve been working as a thief or a tough guy; perhaps you’ve just been cutting corners on the paperwork; maybe you’ve been on the grift. Whatever the dodge, you’re one of the wisenheimers who seem to cluster in Fatlington as do moths at a porch lamp – it is that kind of a town.
Whatever your story, you are the raw material of greatness in Fatlington. You may be recruited by the mafia, join together with other townies in a crusade against the Mafiosi, strike out on your own and try to take over the place with a few friends, or even all of the above. There is risk in Fatlington, but there is almost limitless potential as well. It is up to you.

Victory Conditions: If you remain loyal to the town, your victory conditions will be as below:

Town win with 41+% of original townie roles surviving = decisive victory.
Town win with 21-40% of original townie roles surviving = clear victory.
Town win with fewer than 20% of the original townie roles surviving = close victory.
Neither side wins = draw.
Town defeat with fewer than 10% of the orginal mafiosi or wiseguys surviving = close defeat.
Town defeat 11-25% of orginal mafiosi or wiseguys roles surviving = clear defeat.
Town defeat 26+% of orginal mafiosi or wiseguys roles surviving = decisive defeat.
-- Your personal survival moves you one category up on this scale.

If you choose to continue a life of crime, success will likely lead you to change roles and adopt those victory conditions instead.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you are the only protector and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have a 1 in 6 chance of being revealed by name.

2. In combination with 4 other townies or with 2 other Wiseguys, you can form a vigilante group (5 required; or 3 wiseguys) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7; limit 5 for a wiseguy hit), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies or 3 wiseguys participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If you are the only attacker, that effort fails and you have a 1 in 6 chance of being revealed by name.

3. If you are sanctioned by a Mafia Don, you may attempt a kill as part of a two person team (limit 4 if extras are used), partnering with another wiseguy or a made gangster. If the attack fails, there is normally no chance of you being revealed. This is NOT true of an unsanctioned kill, which runs the same risk as for townie/wiseguy-only attack teams.

Passive Actions: You have no passive abilities aside from something in your secret abilities/traits.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated by a made or a detective, it is likely that you will be revealed as a “criminal,” though a minority of wiseguys read as “unclear.” Should you be engaged in a successful killing, your status would read as “guilty” if you are investigated that same night. Thereafter, your status would be criminal even if you were “unclear” before then.

2. You are not able to investigate others.

Role Changing: One of the more interesting qualities of a Wiseguy is their ability to change roles.

1. If you perform two successful protections, you may (at random among your group) be offered the opportunity to cease being a Wiseguy and become a townie Doctor. You may refuse the offer, but it will not be repeated.

2. If you perform two successful protections and then perform two successful townie killings (not wiseguy teams), you will be given the opportunity to become a Rogue Detective. Rogues can both investigate and under some circumstances, solo-kill.


3. If you perform two sanctioned kills for a mafia family, and with the permission of that family’s Don, you may become a Made Gangster in that family and progress in that role.

4. If you perform four successful killings with a team of Wiseguys, one of that team will become a Made Gangster (unaligned). If you perform five successful killings with such a team, any and all with five kills become Made Gangsters. Two or more Mades can attempt to form their own family.

ROLE PM 2 [RED TEXT]


Special Trait: Connections

You have a friend with “connections” who you once saved from a jam. Once during a night phase of the game, though not on Night #1, you can ask this friend to provide you with information on a single player. The information you get (at the beginning of the 2nd day phase following) may not be complete, but will be better than a typical detective’s first efforts AND it will be completely accurate.

Special Trait: Recruiter’s Luck

You are unusually lucky. The first time you are successfully attacked, that attack will fail and you will survive without serious harm. Be careful, while you will survive the first attack in a manner that seems lucky, you will not survive subsequent attacks – even on the same night. Once you have used your luck it is gone. This trait is automatic and cannot be “turned off.”
This is a special reward trait for your contribution and is in addition to any other trait or traits.

I used the "Connections" ability to verify Neri's result on Sasaki. I hadn't become a Made so I couldn't do investigations yet. Figured I wanted to be doubly sure on Sasaki being a Don, because that meant either I would have to try to win under Sasaki, or I'd have to try to kill Sasaki. I didn't want the result to be spoofed or altered.

I used up my luck (never used it in Capo III) in stepping down from the Director's seat and allowing Renata to hit me. If someone else had hit me too, I'd be dead. :beam:


Promoted to Made Gangster:

Congratulations. Don Cunnio has elevated you to the status of "Made Gangster" in his family (and it is an offer you can't refuse). You are now a confirmed mafioso, bound by the tradition of omerta.

NOTE: Don's name and family name are starred "inserts" in this role. Your family is Cunio, your Don may or may not be revealed to you at present (only the initial made is guaranteed this information).

Here is your new role; red PM information is unchanged:

Role: Made Gangster

Alignment: Mafioso; Family: Cunnio

Summary: You are a Made gangster and a key subordinate of your Don. You handle the “wetwork” for the family and are also able to use your sources to investigate others for recruitment/opportunities. As a member of your family, your goal is to have your family achieve primacy by a) eliminating the Dons of the other families and b) outnumbering the surviving townies and Mafiosi of different families. While your personal survival is important, a victory for your family is of equal or greater importance.

Victory Conditions: See below:

Decisive Victory = Your Don becomes Capo di Tutti Capi with at least 4 surviving family members.
Clear Victory = Your Don becomes Capo di Tutti Capi with 3 or fewer surviving family members.
Close Victory = A starting Mafia family wins besides your own.
Draw = neither side can claim victory.
Close Defeat = The town wins with fewer than 10% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving OR a “Third party” claims victory.
Clear Defeat = The town wins with between 10% and 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.
Crushing Defeat = The town wins with more than 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.
- Your personal survival increases this level of victory by one.
- If you personally supplant your starting Don you will need to obtain victory conditions as a Don. This is also true if you are the one who arranges your Don’s removal, though in that case you will receive a bonus level of victory for your successful skullduggery as well. Warning, the price of failure in such a move is high and takes one victory level away.

Abilities:

1. You may not “go straight” – for you a life of mafia crime is a decided question.

2. If your family has lost its Don, or if your group has never had one, you may ascend to the Role of Don by: a) having at least one other Made in the family/group (2 or more needed), b) having all the other Made Gangsters in your family agree to your becoming the Don, and c) providing that you did not participate personally in the killing of the previous Don.

2. Your Don is gnarlycharlie.

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. If desired, you may combine with 1 other Made or Wise Guy and can attempt to kill one target per night. If you have a wiseguy partner, the hit must be sanctioned by the Don to work. You may conduct one investigation as well.

2. You may combine with two other Mades to protect another mafioso. After two successful defenses [kill attempted and thwarted] one of you will be selected as a new Luca for the family (should you lack one). This is the only protection mission you can perform. You may conduct one investigation as well.

3. You may participate in a townie killing-group, functioning normally (as 1 of 5), but while doing so you may not conduct any investigations or conduct a family killing.

4. You may participate in a townie protection group, but you cannot provide any protection value so any protection team where you are not an “extra” WILL fail. You can conduct one investigation while “goofing off” this way, though you cannot conduct a family killing.

Passive Actions

1. On a night when you are not involved in any active night actions, you may conduct two investigations. On most other nights, you may conduct one. You may not investigate on a night you work with a townie kill team.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. It is most probable that, if investigated by a Detective or by a Made Gangster, you will be discovered as “criminal.” You will only register as “guilty” on the night of a killing if you have participated in that killing.

2. When investigating a person, you will learn if they are “criminal” (Mades, Lucas, most Wise Guys), “Unclear” (Some Wise Guys, a few Townies) or “Innocent” (Dons, Most Townies, Detectives, Doctors, Surgeons, and the FBI Detective). You have a small chance of discovering the target’s role as well, but this chance is one level lower than the equivalent Detective investigation chance.

Role Changing:

1. After 3 or more successful sanctioned killings, and provided that your family has at least 5 members, you may be promoted Consigliare by the Don. Though of no advantage on active actions, you receive some additional protection and your investigative abilities are greatly increased.

2. If your family has lost its Don, or if your group has never had one, you may ascend to the Role of Don by: a) having at least one other Made in the family/group (2 or more needed), b) having all the other Made Gangsters in your family agree to your becoming the Don, and c) providing that you did not participate personally in the killing of the previous Don.



Selected as Don Clemenza


Role: Mafia Don

Alignment: Mafioso; Family: Clemenza

Summary: You are the boss of a crime family, and your goal is to take over Fatlington and become the Capo de Tutti Capi (Captain of Captains). To do this, you will need to eliminate all of the other Dons and establish a crime family that outnumbers the remaining Mafiosi and citizens of the town

Victory Conditions:

Decisive Victory = You become Capo de Tutti Capi with 4 or more surviving family members including yourself.
Clear Victory = You become Capo de Tutti Capi with 3 or fewer surviving family members including yourself, OR your family wins under the leadership of a new Don, despite your death.
Close Victory = A starting Mafia family wins besides your own OR a draw occurs but you personally survive.
Draw = neither side can claim victory.
Close Defeat = The town wins with fewer than 10% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving OR a “Third party” claims victory.
Clear Defeat = The town wins with between 10% and 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.
Crushing Defeat = The town wins with more than 33% of the original townies and non-aligned wiseguys surviving.

Abilities:



Your death is part of the victory conditions for the other Dons, and will also severely limit your family’s chance of success as creating a new Don is time-consuming.




Your Made Gangsters are your active accomplices, investigating and/or attacking targets to help your family achieve success. For another Made Gangster to be created, they must qualify themselves by making sanctioned kills and must receive your permission to advance.




Any time after your family has acquired a 5th (or more) member, you may (but do not have to) designate one Made Gangster – but not a Luca – as “Consigliare.” This player can than conduct up to 4 investigations on any night they are not participating in a kill, but zero on any night they are involved in a killing. The first night they are targeted for death after achieving Consigliare status, they have a 2 in 6 chance of avoiding death (this is a one-time only power resulting from some “gift” you have given them upon their promotion). The narration of their narrow escape may seem suspicious as it will not read the same way as would a doctor save.




You will choose some “signature” component that MUST feature in all of your family’s sanctioned killings. This may be a consistent method, a symbol or calling card, or some other distinctive characteristic – but it must be used in each killing without exception. You must notify me of this characteristic with your first nighttime PM.


Daytime:



You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.


Nightime:

Active Actions



In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will fail unless there are more than three townies as no Don can provide this form of protection. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If only you (by circumstance or betrayal) attempt a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and there is a 1 in 36 chance of you being revealed by name in that failed attempt. Your Luca cannot protect you when you are in such a group.




In combination with 4 other townies, you can form a vigilante group (5 required) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If only you (by circumstance or betrayal) attempt such a kill, that effort fails and there is a 1 in 36 chance of you being revealed by name in that failed attempt. Your Luca cannot protect you when you are in such a group.




If you have no other family members, a solo Don may attempt to kill one target per night as a solo-killer. The trademark must be used.


Passive Actions



Twice per game, you may exercise a few of your many “favors” from non-playing members of Fatlington, and use these persons and their skills to temporarily camouflage your investigation status. Thus, for one night, you may choose to appear Innocent, Criminal, Guilty, or Unclear at your choice.




If you have no other family members left, you as a solo Don may conduct up to three investigations per night, receiving the same kind of results as a made gangster (Innocent, Criminal, Unclear) and a small chance to learn their role. You cannot both investigate and kill in the same night phase.




You must PM me with a note as to which kills are sanctioned by your family. An unsanctioned kill will not allow your participants to advance as quickly as will sanctioned kills.


Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If investigated by a Made Gangster or Detective, you will almost certainly be discovered to be “innocent.” This is true even if you kill as part of a vigilante group. You will only register as “criminal” or “guilty” if you have personally participated in a killing while operating solo. Penetration of your role is one step more difficult than it is for the other roles. So, for example, for a garden variety first investigation your chance of being discovered as the Don is 1 in 1296 rather than the usual 1 in 216.

2. If circumstances have you doing investigations, they will function as do those of a made gangster. When investigating a person, you will learn if they are “criminal” (Mades, Lucas, most Wise Guys), “Unclear” (Some Wise Guys, a few Townies) or “Innocent” (Dons, Most Townies, Detectives, Doctors, Surgeons, and the FBI Detective).

Role Changing: You man not change roles. For you, a life of mafia crime is a foregone conclusion.

I'm not sure if my Made mission of "skullduggery" applies here or not, since I became Don of a different family and ended the Cunio line, but I did get the Mafia Don mission of decisive victory with 4 or more members of the family alive, and personally surviving to become Capo di Tutti Capi.

Anyway, the wiseguy unaligned ascends to the top position, similar to Scottishranger's rise in Capo II, except Scotty had to go from townie to wiseguy to made to Don, I think. I had a better start than him, being an unaligned made with luck.





I met the Lawyer through fyremarble, whose Made and Luca were either absent or not very communicative, and she was struggling so I helped her find recruits. I left her alone for most of the game but she left herself undefended on purpose, she felt killing was the way to go... and I felt a united family would be the winner, and it would be tricky to convince the Cunio to follow fyremarble, as it would have been tricky to convince the Stracchi to follow gnarlycharlie. Either one felt like a surrender, so a new family was the obvious choice, which meant both of them had to die. And of course that also meant every other Don needed to die as well.

I got the password from fyremarble and I used it to contact DaveShack and for a time, I pretended to be a Mafia Don. Given my behind the scenes activities, I basically was a mafia Don. I did the recruiting and I orchestrated the hits and I decided who was an enemy of the families. It's only fitting that I ended up being a mafia Don, because I played the role from the beginning in deed, if not by title.

[Montmorency]

Special Trait: Connections

You have a friend with “connections” who you once saved from a jam. Once during a night phase of the game, though not on Night #1, you can ask this friend to provide you with information on a single player. The information you get (at the beginning of the 2nd day phase following) may not be complete, but will be better than a typical detective’s first efforts AND it will be completely accurate.

Special Trait: Recruiter’s Luck

You are unusually lucky. The first time you are successfully attacked, that attack will fail and you will survive without serious harm. Be careful, while you will survive the first attack in a manner that seems lucky, you will not survive subsequent attacks – even on the same night. Once you have used your luck it is gone. This trait is automatic and cannot be “turned off.”
This is a special reward trait for your contribution and is in addition to any other trait or traits.



color=red]Special Trait: Connections

You have a friend with “connections” who you once saved from a jam. Once during a night phase of the game, though not on Night #1, you can ask this friend to provide you with information on a single player. The information you get (at the beginning of the 2nd day phase following) may not be complete, but will be better than a typical detective’s first efforts AND it will be completely accurate.



Special Trait: Sort-of-Lucky

You are “sort of” lucky. The first time you are attacked successfully, you will survive the attack. Unfortunately, you will be wounded and unable to defend yourself against any subsequent attacks on the same night – even if your normal abilities would let you do so. You will be in hospital all of the next day and subsequent night phase, which means that you cannot vote (but could still be lynched) and that you are safe for that subsequent night. You may not undertake any active actions on the night following your release either.
For example: If you are attacked on N2 and your sorta-luck saves you, you cannot vote on D3, you are safe on N3, but you cannot do an active action on N4.

Add this to the others.

Hmm...not so different, you and I.

[Choxorn]

Special Trait: Sort-of-Lucky

You are “sort of” lucky. The first time you are attacked successfully, you will survive the attack. Unfortunately, you will be wounded and unable to defend yourself against any subsequent attacks on the same night – even if your normal abilities would let you do so. You will be in hospital all of the next day and subsequent night phase, which means that you cannot vote (but could still be lynched) and that you are safe for that subsequent night. You may not undertake any active actions on the night following your release either.
For example: If you are attacked on N2 and your sorta-luck saves you, you cannot vote on D3, you are safe on N3, but you cannot do an active action on N4.

Special Trait: Spoofer

You have always enjoyed playing natural jokes, and some of those skills let you make all sorts of things appear to be “different,” at least for a little while. You can actually cause a selected player to display the status of your choice “guilty, unclear, criminal, innocent; susceptible, possibly susceptible, probably unsusceptible, or completely unsusceptible. They will display this status to any investigator on the night you choose – even if it is the wrong result for their style of investigation. You can do nothing to camouflage roles. You may do this twice.

Maybe I would have used that ability at some point if everyone wasn't so obviously mafia...

[The Stranger]

Special Trait: Sort-of-Lucky

You are “sort of” lucky. The first time you are attacked successfully, you will survive the attack. Unfortunately, you will be wounded and unable to defend yourself against any subsequent attacks on the same night – even if your normal abilities would let you do so. You will be in hospital all of the next day and subsequent night phase, which means that you cannot vote (but could still be lynched) and that you are safe for that subsequent night. You may not undertake any active actions on the night following your release either.
For example: If you are attacked on N2 and your sorta-luck saves you, you cannot vote on D3, you are safe on N3, but you cannot do an active action on N4.

Special Trait: Spoofer

You have always enjoyed playing natural jokes, and some of those skills let you make all sorts of things appear to be “different,” at least for a little while. You can actually cause a selected player to display the status of your choice “guilty, unclear, criminal, innocent; susceptible, possibly susceptible, probably unsusceptible, or completely unsusceptible. They will display this status to any investigator on the night you choose – even if it is the wrong result for their style of investigation. You can do nothing to camouflage roles. You may do this twice.

Maybe I would have used that ability at some point if everyone wasn't so obviously mafia...

I used spoofer at the start of the game to get rid of Subotan. I planted a guilty on him because i knew he would be investigated and hoped it would be his downfall. after that i became rogue but the role turned out to be less great than before. i knew that before i accepted it but it was kinda lame to decline it after i tried so hard to get it.

[sturmhauke]

My thanks to the hosts for running the show, and Pizza for bringing me here and being a formidable opponent. I enjoyed it at first, but I have to say that as I learned the true nature of the beast (backstabbing, politicking, misinformation campaigns, etc.) I wasn't having as good a time. My personal drama didn't help matters. DIY seemed like a true townie ally and had already helped with strategy, so I handed off command to him. Looking back, I don't think we ever had a chance, not even the slim chance I thought we did.

One thing has been bugging me though: Sigurd, what the :daisy: was up with your Don Cunio accusations? I mean really. I just don't get it.

[seireikhaan]

So it's time for an honest assessment and review. I'll try to keep this relatively short. Some of my observations and thoughts, from both playing and co-hosting.

First off, once again, I'd like to thank everyone for their patience. It took us a while to get our heads wrapped around everything when we had to take over. The sheer amount of data was staggering, well over anything I'd done. Maybe a bit less so for GH, having hosted Pirate Ship at least. Simply trying to get everything organized into a comprehensible system was a huge task, to which much thanks must go to GH. Those first few phases were an arduous task of trying to double check and triple check to make sure nothing was missed or improperly allocated for, and even there were issues. In other words, it's not something I'm chomping at the bit to try again. I do like hosting, but this was simply a lot, even as co-host.

Being honest, I didn't enjoy hosting this. At all. The workload was only a small part of it. When Seamus informed us of his inability to continue hosting, we both knew the game had to go on. We both knew it was going to be a lot of work to keep everything in order. However, the revelation of just how the game was going on behind the scenes didn't please me much. This is me speaking personally here. I don't enjoy centralization in mafia. I feel like every person or small group should forge their own path to success. That's why I never informed Pizza of my role. That was why I was doing what I could to leak every bit of info I could from Pizza to GH. I was the one who leaked to GH about a third to half of his data. I was sure that we'd had everything in order to ultimately take the network down.

But that leads to what infuriated me. The shyster. As Gh said, this is nothing against Daveshack- he played the role well, did almost everything he could to attain victory. There is no fault to him for doing so. But I believe in what GH referred to as the "sanctity" of the lynch. The whole crux of mafia is the lynch. It's the central focus of the game. It's the one thing that gives the entire collective the ability to press the giant red button on someone and say "No. No more. Now you die." In more traditional games, it is literally the only way for the town to win. Rendering it moot is one of the things I vow to never do in a game I host, and I feel like that's what happened here. Pizza, you are entirely correct that you were vulnerable at many points. But I think you underestimate the crippling blow to morale that the shyster caused. The town's big red button was disabled. People gave their biggest rally to take you down, only to have a single person tell the collective "no. Not today." Even if the shyster had this as a one time ability, I can't help but feel like it dampened the motivation of people to participate in the lynch. I personally feel like the sharp drop in activity is attributable to this. But it was even more staggering than that- the shyster had the ability to stop every lynch- every single one. And then, lastly, to give the shyster connections to every single mob boss was unfathomable to me. I almost feel like it was a soft pitch role. Nobody else was given so much information, for no reason other than being the right role.

/sigh

Going to backtrack now. The centralization issue was the other one that I was concerned about. I know that there were people who, like me, agreed to do work for Pizza to get "into the network". But it seemed like a lot of people were simply content to let Pizza pick a target for them to do something, as long as it got them promoted. I understand wanting to be promoted from being a regular townsperson- being able to do things at night is more interesting. But... I dunno, I just feel like the game would have been more interesting had there not been a central organizer, meticulously planning everyone's movements to his own desires. Honestly, watching the game from afar, I was quite bored. Granted, that was while not having access to the qt's that apparently everyone but the hosts did. But still- the huge rise of mafioso, Pizza, and Daveshack created such a feeling in inevitability that I didn't look forward to the thread updates, especially during lynch time. When the original Dons finally broke out into conflict, I was neither surprised nor hopeful that it would help balance the game out. Because I figured that, at minimum, one of the other original bosses would simply absorb the large numbers of mades and wiseguys that would be left floating, or otherwise, a new Don(pizza) would take them. When Pizza finally revealed to us he wished to backstab his Don, I wasn't remotely surprised- I was only surprised that Pizza ever volunteered himself to becoming a made in the first place.

The only point I can say that I was genuinely intrigued was N19. When Dave was blocked, I surmised that there was some kind of plan to get Pizza lynched. And it was a valiant effort, if a bit belated. The rest of the game, I was disappointed with the seeming acceptance of failure that seemed to permeate it. I can understand some of the sentiment- see back on the discussion on the shyster role. But people made no effort to bring Pizza down for lynch for so long, even handing him the director's seat while he whistled a jaunty, scummy tune to everyone. And nobody made an effort to bring down Daveshack. My impression is that plenty of people were aware of him to do it, but simply didn't want to take the gamble to bring him down. I can't imagine anyone was figuring during the midgame that Pizza was going to simply follow along in a neutral holding pattern. I wondered if I was giving Pizza too much credit, but his victory proves me accurate. I thought people knew that he was ambitious- heck, he'd declared that many times. But people simply refused to do anything about the queen piece. It's just disappointing because so many decided to just go with the flow to try and win, rather than follow Pizza's example of going for the gold and winning with style. I'm sure that for Pizza, he got the kind of rush that one only gets when they pull off a long thought out strategy for ultimate victory. Which he deserves, for all the effort he put into this. I just wish that more had tried the same.

Thanks for listening to my small rant. I don't mean to offend, and I don't mean to be targeting any one person out for judgment. I just wanted to put my honest thoughts out. It's been a long experience, and I might be a bit jaded at the moment, and I might feel better about the game in a while. Not sure. Anyways, peace out, y'all. ~:wave: I hope to see people stick around and try other, different games. Even if I wasn't thrilled with how this game went, it's undeniable that it was good to see plenty of new faces around.

[GeneralHankerchief]

But that leads to what infuriated me. The shyster. As Gh said, this is nothing against Daveshack- he played the role well, did almost everything he could to attain victory. There is no fault to him for doing so. But I believe in what GH referred to as the "sanctity" of the lynch. The whole crux of mafia is the lynch. It's the central focus of the game. It's the one thing that gives the entire collective the ability to press the giant red button on someone and say "No. No more. Now you die." In more traditional games, it is literally the only way for the town to win. Rendering it moot is one of the things I vow to never do in a game I host, and I feel like that's what happened here. Pizza, you are entirely correct that you were vulnerable at many points. But I think you underestimate the crippling blow to morale that the shyster caused. The town's big red button was disabled. People gave their biggest rally to take you down, only to have a single person tell the collective "no. Not today." Even if the shyster had this as a one time ability, I can't help but feel like it dampened the motivation of people to participate in the lynch. I personally feel like the sharp drop in activity is attributable to this. But it was even more staggering than that- the shyster had the ability to stop every lynch- every single one. And then, lastly, to give the shyster connections to every single mob boss was unfathomable to me. I almost feel like it was a soft pitch role. Nobody else was given so much information, for no reason other than being the right role.

I'd like to elaborate on this point a bit. Again, this is nothing against the player, just the role.

Upon the revelation that ATPG had survived the lynch even with a clear majority of votes, it was like all of the air had just been let out of a very large balloon. TinCow and I were having heated arguments back and forth over PM over the exact nature of ATPG's survival, wondering whether it was sort of some innate protection or an outside role. We eventually deduced that it was an outside role that saved him, but I remember the conversation being something along the lines of "We'll just go after Pizza again the next day, there's no way the role can save the same person two days in a row. It's too overpowered." Talking separately to khaan, we came to the same conclusion. We were angry. We were demoralized. The lynch failed. The lynch is never supposed to fail.

Speaking strictly for myself now, I was able to keep it together and recover after a little bit, putting together a rough plan for the next phase. But the entire time, the fear and the uncertainty was gnawing away at me. The sacred line had been crossed. Because of that, everything was thrown into doubt. Then khaan and I had to step in and cohost, and of course any further coordination efforts stopped dead.

If you were on the opposing side during/after the first Shyster save, I don't think you can ever possibly understand how much of an effect it had on us. Nothing was certain anymore. Somehow there were still enough votes on ATPG on D8 (the first day phase after we had taken over) to get him tied for the lynch, and Dave stepped in again, and that was it. Pizza's aura of invincibility was fully operational. The game was lost at that point. The rest of it was just choreography.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So it's time for an honest assessment and review. I'll try to keep this relatively short. Some of my observations and thoughts, from both playing and co-hosting.

First off, once again, I'd like to thank everyone for their patience. It took us a while to get our heads wrapped around everything when we had to take over. The sheer amount of data was staggering, well over anything I'd done. Maybe a bit less so for GH, having hosted Pirate Ship at least. Simply trying to get everything organized into a comprehensible system was a huge task, to which much thanks must go to GH. Those first few phases were an arduous task of trying to double check and triple check to make sure nothing was missed or improperly allocated for, and even there were issues. In other words, it's not something I'm chomping at the bit to try again. I do like hosting, but this was simply a lot, even as co-host.

Being honest, I didn't enjoy hosting this. At all. The workload was only a small part of it. When Seamus informed us of his inability to continue hosting, we both knew the game had to go on. We both knew it was going to be a lot of work to keep everything in order. However, the revelation of just how the game was going on behind the scenes didn't please me much. This is me speaking personally here. I don't enjoy centralization in mafia. I feel like every person or small group should forge their own path to success. That's why I never informed Pizza of my role. That was why I was doing what I could to leak every bit of info I could from Pizza to GH. I was the one who leaked to GH about a third to half of his data. I was sure that we'd had everything in order to ultimately take the network down.

But that leads to what infuriated me. The shyster. As Gh said, this is nothing against Daveshack- he played the role well, did almost everything he could to attain victory. There is no fault to him for doing so. But I believe in what GH referred to as the "sanctity" of the lynch. The whole crux of mafia is the lynch. It's the central focus of the game. It's the one thing that gives the entire collective the ability to press the giant red button on someone and say "No. No more. Now you die." In more traditional games, it is literally the only way for the town to win. Rendering it moot is one of the things I vow to never do in a game I host, and I feel like that's what happened here.

^Completely understandable.


Pizza, you are entirely correct that you were vulnerable at many points. But I think you underestimate the crippling blow to morale that the shyster caused.

Not entirely true, I was counting on it. Almost everything I did after I was revealed was for the purposes of demoralizing the town side to the point where investigators wouldn't even bother investigating... townies wouldn't bother voting... nobody that was incorruptible would feel like doing anything, and only the townies that could go mafia would bother doing anything.

We were still incredibly outnumbered and I didn't want people voting to pick off allied gangsters. I wanted their efforts to be focused solely on me, so that when their efforts against me failed, their will to fight would be shaken.

I did everything I could to spare every single gangster from the lynch until landlubber's team turned against me. Everyone, including prospective gangsters who were townies, like Sigurd. I threw my body in front of the lynch and did everything I could to stop every gangster from death. The lawyer was covering me but I was doing whatever I could to spare everyone else.

I tried to see to it that no Made gangster died on my watch unless they were specifically my enemy.


The town's big red button was disabled.

If they were using it on me, yes. But they could have used it on any gangster. Besides, they would never ever win this game by the lynch alone. It would take them 30 phases. That much is pretty factual.

They needed to be doing vigilante kills, and everyone who was doing vigilante kills was going mafia.

Town lost because it wanted to not be townie anymore, not because of the shyster. Once town decided it was mafia, town lost the game. I understand how massive a blow the shyster was, but I think you're underestimating how massive a blow having so many corruptible townies was. Before I was exposed, and before the mafia were making much progress, I spoke to people and they wanted to be mafia. That's why I was able to take such risks, they weren't very risky at all. The only thing going on was the pretense that people were good townies still, so people didn't want to be openly scummy.

But behind the scenes, they were quietly scummy. Town really ceased to be when it decided to go bad, en masse, and I personally assisted in convincing over half of those folks to turn their backs on the town.


People gave their biggest rally to take you down, only to have a single person tell the collective "no. Not today." Even if the shyster had this as a one time ability, I can't help but feel like it dampened the motivation of people to participate in the lynch. I personally feel like the sharp drop in activity is attributable to this.

I concur with this assessment. Town's morale suffered greatly when the shyster kept me alive not once, but twice in a row, and I did everything I could to make sure I would be lynched a second time in a row. If they had lynched another gangster instead, or the shyster itself, they would have still been in the game. I wanted to take them out of the game as fast as possible, and make everyone believe town was finished, and it was time to go mafia.

Then, they'd likely turn to me or one of my allies to become mafia. Yes I understand exactly what the shyster did, and its presence in Capo is questionable to say the least. But it was there and almost no one else was bothering to use it, and I was exactly the wrong person to have that kind of protection. You combine that with the mafia gaining control of the vote and making me Director, and I'm not at all surprised with the reaction of the resistance to give up or feel kicked in the stomach. That was a horrible combination for the town.


But it was even more staggering than that- the shyster had the ability to stop every lynch- every single one. And then, lastly, to give the shyster connections to every single mob boss was unfathomable to me. I almost feel like it was a soft pitch role. Nobody else was given so much information, for no reason other than being the right role.

Oh yes. I can see how Seamus originally intended the role, and it would make sense.

Imagine a role that could guess which of 5 Dons was going to be lynched that day, and tried to spare one of them. Guess correctly, and deal a serious blow to town morale and keep one of the starting Dons alive, the starting Dons who have a rough go of it.

Sure, in the hands of just the mafia Dons, they'd fight over his power and it would be somewhat balanced.

The FATAL flaw was allowing the shyster to spare any player from the lynch. Not just the Dons, but anyone.... even a wiseguy, unaligned to the mob.

How could I afford such a powerful lawyer as some two-bit goon? I couldn't. That kind of power shouldn't have been possible for me.



Going to backtrack now. The centralization issue was the other one that I was concerned about. I know that there were people who, like me, agreed to do work for Pizza to get "into the network". But it seemed like a lot of people were simply content to let Pizza pick a target for them to do something, as long as it got them promoted. I understand wanting to be promoted from being a regular townsperson- being able to do things at night is more interesting. But... I dunno, I just feel like the game would have been more interesting had there not been a central organizer, meticulously planning everyone's movements to his own desires. Honestly, watching the game from afar, I was quite bored. Granted, that was while not having access to the qt's that apparently everyone but the hosts did.

No, while there was a lot of behind the scenes drama, there was a lull in the action around the middle which made me feel like having everything under my control was overkill.

I was also exhausted from all the "meticulous planning" and needed a break. I told everyone, town and mafia, to do their own thing and for a time, many rounds, they were free from me. But everything still went the same. Once the snowball was rolling it just kept getting bigger and more out of control. It didn't need me anymore, it was already gargantuan.

When there was so little resistance to what I was doing, I admit I got a little depressed as well. If people had rallied together, infiltrated my network, asked the right questions of the right people, and just found out who the shyster was and tried to kill him....

The guy I left intentionally defenseless most of the latter half because it was the only way the game even seemed fair to me...

We could have had a big war and I could have died and all hell would have broken loose. Instead some people got too defeatist and packed up. Others lacked necessary allies to bring us down. A big united faction versus a lot of divided factions who were demoralized was an easy contest at times.

The challenge was surviving the mafia versus mafia wars, where no one's allegiance was set in stone. The game got a lot more interesting to me then. Before that it was just hacking apart a disenchanted town who wasn't being protected very well by all those doctors I helped them create. I kept picking folks that would seem to have been a low priority for protection, if I were still running the town. So I played as if I was still running the town and I picked whoever I wouldn't have protected as my targets.


But still- the huge rise of mafioso, Pizza, and Daveshack created such a feeling in inevitability that I didn't look forward to the thread updates, especially during lynch time. When the original Dons finally broke out into conflict, I was neither surprised nor hopeful that it would help balance the game out. Because I figured that, at minimum, one of the other original bosses would simply absorb the large numbers of mades and wiseguys that would be left floating, or otherwise, a new Don(pizza) would take them. When Pizza finally revealed to us he wished to backstab his Don, I wasn't remotely surprised- I was only surprised that Pizza ever volunteered himself to becoming a made in the first place.

My dream was finding some worthy yet oft-overlooked player, building them up to made, and letting them go to town on the town.... whichever one was the most clever and ruthless would be the one I'd support as Capo, and I would have followed them as their Made.

Things didn't go as I planned, and once again in a power vacuum, around round 17 I decided it was time to fill the vacuum again and challenge whoever else tried to become king of the mountain. Thankfully there were some actually trying for the prize or the ending would have been 1000 times lamer.


The only point I can say that I was genuinely intrigued was N19. When Dave was blocked, I surmised that there was some kind of plan to get Pizza lynched. And it was a valiant effort, if a bit belated. The rest of the game, I was disappointed with the seeming acceptance of failure that seemed to permeate it. I can understand some of the sentiment- see back on the discussion on the shyster role. But people made no effort to bring Pizza down for lynch for so long, even handing him the director's seat while he whistled a jaunty, scummy tune to everyone. And nobody made an effort to bring down Daveshack.

That puzzled me to no end.

In the game, during the game, when the victory was still on the line, I told people who DaveShack was. As in everyone still alive. I posted it in-thread.

I leaked my own notes to every Don, and leaked my notes to half the scums in the game.... he was a known quantity and I was indeed leaving him undefended, on purpose, because I knew that even though it wasn't completely unfair for a role like his to exist, me being able to protect both him and myself for certain every round didn't seem particularly like I was risking much and it would have made the game boring for me.

I decided to only protect him when I thought he would be attacked, like at the end after I said I left him undefended for rounds and rounds and rounds. Maybe someone would try something then, nobody did.

The Insurrection to bring down Askthepizzaguy would have worked if it was focused on DaveShack and everyone showed up. And it should have happened like 5-8 rounds before that. After Dave died, I would have been completely boned.

I was waiting for that to happen, although I wasn't playing for a loss, I was playing in a way that intentionally exposed key weaknesses that nobody even tried to hit until it was basically too late.

Very odd.


My impression is that plenty of people were aware of him to do it, but simply didn't want to take the gamble to bring him down.

Allied mafia I can understand;

Why didn't the Barzini try to reveal DaveShack?

Why didn't the Pentangeli try to reveal DaveShack?

Why didn't the Corleone try to destroy DaveShack?

Why didn't the townies even try once to vig-kill him or lynch him once they knew who he was? Town knew I had enemies, enemies which would leap at the chance to remove my lawyer and therefore, me.

Didn't take the shot. No idea why not.

I couldn't have broken their morale that much, some folks were still fighting.

Listen, the town could have gotten one of their rogue detectives and paired them up with a like-minded Made gangster and did a sanctioned hit on DaveShack. They could have formed a vig squad until the very late game. Why didn't anyone try to kill Dave?


I can't imagine anyone was figuring during the midgame that Pizza was going to simply follow along in a neutral holding pattern. I wondered if I was giving Pizza too much credit, but his victory proves me accurate. I thought people knew that he was ambitious- heck, he'd declared that many times. But people simply refused to do anything about the queen piece. It's just disappointing because so many decided to just go with the flow to try and win, rather than follow Pizza's example of going for the gold and winning with style. I'm sure that for Pizza, he got the kind of rush that one only gets when they pull off a long thought out strategy for ultimate victory. Which he deserves, for all the effort he put into this. I just wish that more had tried the same.

I felt like Sasaki/Scottishranger and the Pentangeli gave it a good effort, but they were overwhelmed; they struck too early and without enough support, so they were easy pickings.

They needed more gangsters, doctors, something.

The Corleones gave a very brave effort but I think I schmoozed them into being pacified, even if their intentions were usually hostile toward me (see their QTs)

Chaotix was amazing, always trying to win it without resorting to me.

Krill and some others in the Stracchi/Cunio would have gone independent if I weren't allied to them. They stuck with me because I promised I'd go independent with them and form a final, separate family that included them. Better chance of winning that way, than doing it divided.

I did kill off a whole lot of folks I felt would try to go for the gold for themselves, but not all. I felt the Corleone people were very likely to break away and try to win it for themselves... or at least, without me.

But I feel what you're saying. I kept looking for the super ambitious rival, and I found that all my super ambitious rivals were either with much smaller families or they were dead, or feuding with each other.

I did feel like some folks weren't putting into it what I was, but then again it might have been the demoralizing effects of not only the size and scope of the alliance I threw together, but also the doctor protection, lawyer protection, and eventually the Directorship. That had to keep some folks down.

That said, I didn't think anything I did would demoralize folks like Chaotix, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit, etc, because me doing my thing usually just makes them see red and try to bring me down even harder. I didn't even go for killing those guys until they had either attacked the Stracchi/Cunio or tried to undermine me personally. I wanted desperately to see what they would do in this situation.

They all fought but they had a lack of people willing to fight with them. In a game this size, that's surprising. These folks are very dangerous and they could have beaten me easily with some supporters.


Thanks for listening to my small rant. I don't mean to offend, and I don't mean to be targeting any one person out for judgment. I just wanted to put my honest thoughts out. It's been a long experience, and I might be a bit jaded at the moment, and I might feel better about the game in a while. Not sure. Anyways, peace out, y'all. ~:wave: I hope to see people stick around and try other, different games. Even if I wasn't thrilled with how this game went, it's undeniable that it was good to see plenty of new faces around.

I appreciate your perspectives, yours and GH's. I share a lot of your concerns. Sometimes things felt too cheap and too overpowered.

I got a bit disenchanted with the game at times.

I'll get into my own personal lamentations soon, because believe it or not, there was a lot of this game that I didn't find fun and there were many times I wanted to just resign. Some of it was my fault, some of it was circumstance, and some of it was how others behave around me and toward me.

Don't get me wrong, I still found ways to have fun and in particular, I enjoyed the character I played and I enjoyed throwing everything I could at the town and any rival mafiosi I could, as openly as possible, guffawing in-character all the way. I also enjoyed pulling off the win, but there were parts of the game that felt forced, hollow, and uninteresting.

That said, I am also going to argue that this game was not at all imbalanced and defend Seamus' game and his vision of the game. While the game itself was different perhaps than his vision of it, what it was, was balanced. It became unbalanced due to many factors which I want to address. I'll probably address that stuff with my next post.

There was a lot of room for fairness and fun in this game and it was broken not by design, and not by any one role or one player either. That will be my thesis for Capo IV. I'll explain why I think so and show why it can be argued that I'm correct on that. Permit me to demonstrate.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Short answer: You can't have it both ways. You can't say, "oh, trust me, the demoralization effect and everything that ruined the town was all part of an elaborately designed effort on my part" and then at the same time go "I can't understand why counter-plans X, Y, and Z never materialized when I deliberately left them open." These strategies are intentionally counter-productive. Obviously one of them is going to win out.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I was playing for a demoralizing effect, yes. But there were plenty of folks who were plenty gung-ho about trying to bring me down. That it didn't occur to any of the Pentangeli/Barzini/Corleone or townies at the end to wipe out DaveShack is what I find puzzling. They had motive and opportunity and not 100% of them had given up, not even close.

You can convince me that it knocked the fight out of lots of folks, which was my intent, but you'll never convince me that everyone gave up and that it wouldn't have occurred to someone to take out the lawyer, someone with the ability to out the lawyer such as the mafia families I was a rival toward, or how about just a small group of townies in the latter third of the game where he was exposed and known.

That's a stretch. It's not realistic. I get your gripes with the shyster's role and I understand them, but the goal should have been to remove the shyster and there were people in the game with knowledge of who he was, and they sat on that info and did nothing with it.

That's not something you can explain by demoralizing. If someone tries to use a gun on a guy with a bulletoproof vest and it fails twice, but they look directly at the "drop 10 ton anvil on head" button and don't press it, that's not just being demoralized, that's dropping the ball.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, look at it from the other side's perspective. Your leaving DaveShack open for such a long period of time was hidden. You had been playing a massively overconfident mafioso for a long time now whose motives had been established as win at all costs. You were the archetype of evil. You were reveling in everyone wanting to bring you down, enjoying the challenge, and enjoying crushing everyone's skull who tried. This is what those who opposed you saw, regardless of whether it was true or not.

Now, take a walk in their shoes for a minute. They're looking for cracks in the system. Are they going to expect your ace in the hole to be so deliberately open? No, of course not. That would be the waste of a night action better spent elsewhere. It would be almost as foolish as attacking you directly. They're looking for people to turn, to whittle down your numbers. They're not going to go after the keystone to your entire operation.

[seireikhaan]

Not entirely true, I was counting on it. Almost everything I did after I was revealed was for the purposes of demoralizing the town side to the point where investigators wouldn't even bother investigating... townies wouldn't bother voting... nobody that was incorruptible would feel like doing anything, and only the townies that could go mafia would bother doing anything.
This essentially answers your confusion as to why you and Dave were able to skate through so much of the midgame. You take the wind out of everyone's sails, and their boat flails. When someone can go to the nuclear pyre twice and survive, impression pretty much becomes reality at that point. Similarly, for what reason would people have to believe you wouldn't keep one of your loyal self-created doctors to sit on Dave during the night? Especially once you became director, freeing up a doc for the duty.



If they were using it on me, yes. But they could have used it on any gangster. Besides, they would never ever win this game by the lynch alone. It would take them 30 phases. That much is pretty factual.

They needed to be doing vigilante kills, and everyone who was doing vigilante kills was going mafia.

Town lost because it wanted to not be townie anymore, not because of the shyster. Once town decided it was mafia, town lost the game. I understand how massive a blow the shyster was, but I think you're underestimating how massive a blow having so many corruptible townies was. Before I was exposed, and before the mafia were making much progress, I spoke to people and they wanted to be mafia. That's why I was able to take such risks, they weren't very risky at all. The only thing going on was the pretense that people were good townies still, so people didn't want to be openly scummy.
You're correct that a large percentage of the vig crews were aiming for mafia status. I still, however, feel like this comes back to the Shyster. Who wouldn't want to go mafia at that point? They just saw someone exposed for bragging about being mafia survive not one, but two lynches. If they had any doubts about the viability of going mafia, those vanished. Meanwhile, what incentive does the town have to stay town? They can openly proclaim themselves mafia without fear of lynch, and joining a mafia family would keep you from being night killed, at least for a while. Meanwhile, the lynch has become an unreliable tool. The town did need to vig, but it needs the lynch as well. The game at that point became a case of either a) joining your 'organization' as it was presented, or b) lose.


But behind the scenes, they were quietly scummy. Town really ceased to be when it decided to go bad, en masse, and I personally assisted in convincing over half of those folks to turn their backs on the town.
Indeed. I still feel like this was more due to the inevitability created by the failure to lynch. And everyone knew you knew everyone else, so why not join you? It offered information, success, and security. All the golden honey in the world wouldn't have mattered much if you didn't have the raw power of lynch immunity and a centralized organization. Personally, I don't find much entertainment in centralized playstyles in mafia, even if they are successful. But for most, I suspect this isn't much of an issue.




I concur with this assessment. Town's morale suffered greatly when the shyster kept me alive not once, but twice in a row, and I did everything I could to make sure I would be lynched a second time in a row. If they had lynched another gangster instead, or the shyster itself, they would have still been in the game. I wanted to take them out of the game as fast as possible, and make everyone believe town was finished, and it was time to go mafia.

Then, they'd likely turn to me or one of my allies to become mafia. Yes I understand exactly what the shyster did, and its presence in Capo is questionable to say the least. But it was there and almost no one else was bothering to use it, and I was exactly the wrong person to have that kind of protection. You combine that with the mafia gaining control of the vote and making me Director, and I'm not at all surprised with the reaction of the resistance to give up or feel kicked in the stomach. That was a horrible combination for the town.
This certainly was the correct play, for going for the win. However, this is also about where the game got unequivocally less interesting, in my opinion. The town being shut out so the mafia can have a giant picnic is not, in my opinion, very fun. And I don't feel that this would have happened with the shyster role.




Oh yes. I can see how Seamus originally intended the role, and it would make sense.

Imagine a role that could guess which of 5 Dons was going to be lynched that day, and tried to spare one of them. Guess correctly, and deal a serious blow to town morale and keep one of the starting Dons alive, the starting Dons who have a rough go of it.

Sure, in the hands of just the mafia Dons, they'd fight over his power and it would be somewhat balanced.

The FATAL flaw was allowing the shyster to spare any player from the lynch. Not just the Dons, but anyone.... even a wiseguy, unaligned to the mob.

How could I afford such a powerful lawyer as some two-bit goon? I couldn't. That kind of power shouldn't have been possible for me.
Here, I'll disagree. The shyster was not crucial to mafia success, in my opinion- they were quite capable of winning on their own. We know this because, as you did accurately estimate, people like to be mafia, and without incorruptible townies, there were going to be plenty who would join on principle. But instead, the mafia all got the one weapon that could make a Don immortal. It's encourages a degree of laziness- rather than focusing on cultivating the right image with the majority of the players to avoid the lynch, a Don only need to get friendly with the shyster and convince them that they're the best Don. And lastly, I'll repeat what I said earlier. The lynch is a sacred weapon of destruction. I just simply cannot condone taking it out of people's hands. This is simply a philosophical point I will not change my mind on.



No, while there was a lot of behind the scenes drama, there was a lull in the action around the middle which made me feel like having everything under my control was overkill.

I was also exhausted from all the "meticulous planning" and needed a break. I told everyone, town and mafia, to do their own thing and for a time, many rounds, they were free from me. But everything still went the same. Once the snowball was rolling it just kept getting bigger and more out of control. It didn't need me anymore, it was already gargantuan.

When there was so little resistance to what I was doing, I admit I got a little depressed as well. If people had rallied together, infiltrated my network, asked the right questions of the right people, and just found out who the shyster was and tried to kill him....

The guy I left intentionally defenseless most of the latter half because it was the only way the game even seemed fair to me...
And here's the bit about the shyster, pizza. You even tried to encourage the game to balance out by not defending him. Imagine someone more ruthless in your situation? It wouldn't have been hard to sit two protections on Dave and simply laugh as people who actually had the audacity to attack him failed.


We could have had a big war and I could have died and all hell would have broken loose. Instead some people got too defeatist and packed up. Others lacked necessary allies to bring us down. A big united faction versus a lot of divided factions who were demoralized was an easy contest at times.

The challenge was surviving the mafia versus mafia wars, where no one's allegiance was set in stone. The game got a lot more interesting to me then. Before that it was just hacking apart a disenchanted town who wasn't being protected very well by all those doctors I helped them create. I kept picking folks that would seem to have been a low priority for protection, if I were still running the town. So I played as if I was still running the town and I picked whoever I wouldn't have protected as my targets.
I'll just bang the drum again. When you literally act as scummy as humanly possible, and have two separate lynch attempts on you fail, how can you be surprised? People were nervous enough when you just had a network. That's why I was doing my best to take it down, because you were already dangerous enough. But when you prove yourself an immortal god, how can people stand against you?




My dream was finding some worthy yet oft-overlooked player, building them up to made, and letting them go to town on the town.... whichever one was the most clever and ruthless would be the one I'd support as Capo, and I would have followed them as their Made.

Things didn't go as I planned, and once again in a power vacuum, around round 17 I decided it was time to fill the vacuum again and challenge whoever else tried to become king of the mountain. Thankfully there were some actually trying for the prize or the ending would have been 1000 times lamer.
True. There was at least some resistance. But it simply wasn't enough. The dissolution of the early mafia famlies, as well as two of the Dons not being active, made the power balance something of an issue.




That puzzled me to no end.

In the game, during the game, when the victory was still on the line, I told people who DaveShack was. As in everyone still alive. I posted it in-thread.

I leaked my own notes to every Don, and leaked my notes to half the scums in the game.... he was a known quantity and I was indeed leaving him undefended, on purpose, because I knew that even though it wasn't completely unfair for a role like his to exist, me being able to protect both him and myself for certain every round didn't seem particularly like I was risking much and it would have made the game boring for me.

I decided to only protect him when I thought he would be attacked, like at the end after I said I left him undefended for rounds and rounds and rounds. Maybe someone would try something then, nobody did.

The Insurrection to bring down Askthepizzaguy would have worked if it was focused on DaveShack and everyone showed up. And it should have happened like 5-8 rounds before that. After Dave died, I would have been completely boned.

I was waiting for that to happen, although I wasn't playing for a loss, I was playing in a way that intentionally exposed key weaknesses that nobody even tried to hit until it was basically too late.

Very odd.

It may seem odd, but I can also see how people might assume it a trap- it seems you likely made it too obvious. They assumed that you had a protection on him(why not) and would then pounce when they were exposed. At least for much of the midgame. Late game, I'm as baffled as you are- more people like Renata were needed, who would take the last shot at glory for a critical strike.



Allied mafia I can understand;

Why didn't the Barzini try to reveal DaveShack?
This one I can answer- well, no, not really. I had no idea Dave existed as a role until I took over as co-host. Phill never told us about him. I couldn't tell you why. We couldn't bust Dave because we had no idea.


Why didn't the Pentangeli try to reveal DaveShack?

Why didn't the Corleone try to destroy DaveShack?

Why didn't the townies even try once to vig-kill him or lynch him once they knew who he was? Town knew I had enemies, enemies which would leap at the chance to remove my lawyer and therefore, me.

Didn't take the shot. No idea why not.

I couldn't have broken their morale that much, some folks were still fighting.

Listen, the town could have gotten one of their rogue detectives and paired them up with a like-minded Made gangster and did a sanctioned hit on DaveShack. They could have formed a vig squad until the very late game. Why didn't anyone try to kill Dave?
Once again, couldn't tell you. The docs were doing a pretty good job, but there were almost no offensive enforcers. The rogues were all investigating for the most part. And the investigators seemed awfully preoccupied with Chaotix. :shrug:


I felt like Sasaki/Scottishranger and the Pentangeli gave it a good effort, but they were overwhelmed; they struck too early and without enough support, so they were easy pickings.

They needed more gangsters, doctors, something.

The Corleones gave a very brave effort but I think I schmoozed them into being pacified, even if their intentions were usually hostile toward me (see their QTs)

Chaotix was amazing, always trying to win it without resorting to me.

Krill and some others in the Stracchi/Cunio would have gone independent if I weren't allied to them. They stuck with me because I promised I'd go independent with them and form a final, separate family that included them. Better chance of winning that way, than doing it divided.

I did kill off a whole lot of folks I felt would try to go for the gold for themselves, but not all. I felt the Corleone people were very likely to break away and try to win it for themselves... or at least, without me.

But I feel what you're saying. I kept looking for the super ambitious rival, and I found that all my super ambitious rivals were either with much smaller families or they were dead, or feuding with each other.

I did feel like some folks weren't putting into it what I was, but then again it might have been the demoralizing effects of not only the size and scope of the alliance I threw together, but also the doctor protection, lawyer protection, and eventually the Directorship. That had to keep some folks down.

That said, I didn't think anything I did would demoralize folks like Chaotix, Sasaki, Crazed Rabbit, etc, because me doing my thing usually just makes them see red and try to bring me down even harder. I didn't even go for killing those guys until they had either attacked the Stracchi/Cunio or tried to undermine me personally. I wanted desperately to see what they would do in this situation.

They all fought but they had a lack of people willing to fight with them. In a game this size, that's surprising. These folks are very dangerous and they could have beaten me easily with some supporters.
Well, if you want someone to emerge as the 'scrappy underdog', you can't just kill them all off and leave the usuals. :shrug:




I appreciate your perspectives, yours and GH's. I share a lot of your concerns. Sometimes things felt too cheap and too overpowered.

I got a bit disenchanted with the game at times.

I'll get into my own personal lamentations soon, because believe it or not, there was a lot of this game that I didn't find fun and there were many times I wanted to just resign. Some of it was my fault, some of it was circumstance, and some of it was how others behave around me and toward me.

Don't get me wrong, I still found ways to have fun and in particular, I enjoyed the character I played and I enjoyed throwing everything I could at the town and any rival mafiosi I could, as openly as possible, guffawing in-character all the way. I also enjoyed pulling off the win, but there were parts of the game that felt forced, hollow, and uninteresting.

That said, I am also going to argue that this game was not at all imbalanced and defend Seamus' game and his vision of the game. While the game itself was different perhaps than his vision of it, what it was, was balanced. It became unbalanced due to many factors which I want to address. I'll probably address that stuff with my next post.

There was a lot of room for fairness and fun in this game and it was broken not by design, and not by any one role or one player either. That will be my thesis for Capo IV. I'll explain why I think so and show why it can be argued that I'm correct on that. Permit me to demonstrate.
I'll acknowledge, and let you present your case before going into a specific balancing issue. I'll just say that I don't think that, outside of the shyster, the game was imbalanced. Seamus did a great job with 99+% of the roles. But I simply feel that the shyster was to balance what a wrench is to a knee cap.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay, look at it from the other side's perspective. Your leaving DaveShack open for such a long period of time was hidden. You had been playing a massively overconfident mafioso for a long time now whose motives had been established as win at all costs. You were the archetype of evil. You were reveling in everyone wanting to bring you down, enjoying the challenge, and enjoying crushing everyone's skull who tried. This is what those who opposed you saw, regardless of whether it was true or not.

Now, take a walk in their shoes for a minute. They're looking for cracks in the system. Are they going to expect your ace in the hole to be so deliberately open? No, of course not. That would be the waste of a night action better spent elsewhere. It would be almost as foolish as attacking you directly. They're looking for people to turn, to whittle down your numbers. They're not going to go after the keystone to your entire operation.

Okay, you're saying the direct approach seemed futile, and the more obviously worthwhile strategy of attacking the supporting cast rather than the main characters was much sounder strategy. Sure, that's one way to look at it. But remember it's all a game of WIFOM.

I was facing off against a town which had at various times a half-dozen or more folks protected at night, some of them capable of killing in retaliation. So the town is going after mafia, one of which they cannot lynch during the day, no idea which one. The mafia is going after the town, 6 or so of which they cannot murder during the night, no idea which one.


Attacked = 65: Askthepizzaguy (n1, n2, n4, n5, n8, n21), Raskolnikov (n1), Slash and earn (n1, n6), slysnake (n1, n3), Earthling (n1), a completely inoffensive name (n2), Master Necromanver (n2), Cahoma (n2), El Barto (n2), Montmorency (n2, n4), Chaotix (n2, n3, n11, n12, n19), taillesskangaru (n3), Secura (n3), Ameranth (n3), Craterus (n3), Cecil XIX (n3, n6), johnhughthom (n4), Ishmael (n4), Drunk Clown (n4, n5), Psychonaut (n5), Suburban Plankton (n4), Sasaki Kojiro (n4), scottishranger (n4, n10), edse (n5), Erebus (n5, n6, n15), Diana Abnoba (n6, n10), J.D. (n6), Zack (n6), Camikaze (n7), Hero di Classico (n7), Diamondeye (n7, n9), guiri (n8), Khazaar (n8, n9, n11), Riedquat (n8), robbiecon (n8), Scienter (n8 x2), sturmhauke (n8), Jarema (n9), Oh! TheLastDays! (n10, n17, n18), qlyphz (n10, n12), Psychonaut (n11), Crazed Rabbit (n12), Erebus (n12), BillMC (n12), Secura (n13), Beefy (n13), white eyes (n13), B_Ray (n14), Renata (n14, n15), Tiaexz (n14), Kennigit (n15), gibsons (n15), Believer (n16), Death is Yonder (n16, n20), shlin28 (n16), Seon (n17), hero di classico (n18), autolycus (n19, n21), Ironside (n19)


Killed = 76: Captain Black Adder [townie] (n1), Pharoah [townie] (n2), Moros [luca] (n2), ELITEWARMAN8GINGYBREADMENMILK [townie] (n2), TinCow [detective] (n3), Xenoneb [townie] (n3), El Barto [detective] (n3), Arjos [FBI chief] (n3), Ameranth [wiseguy] (n4), Lord Winter [wiseguy] (n4), Suburban Plankton [detective] (n5), slysnake [townie] (n5), Lord Brennus [townie] (n5), Bow-wow-wow [townie] (n5), ByzantineKnight [townie] (n6), Kagemusha [serial killer] (n6), Tratorix [FBI] (n6), Raskolnikov [wiseguy] (n6), Nictel [wiseguy] (n6), J.D. [wiseguy] (n6), Visorslash [communist leader] (n7), Cecil XIX [townie] (n7), Drunk Clown [luca] (n7), Johnhughthom [wiseguy] (n7), Jolt [Made] (n7), Romanic [wiseguy] (n7), fubbleskag [doctor] (n8), Ibn-Khaldun [townie] (n8), Memnon [townie] (n8), robbiecon [townie] (n8), Andres [Special Agent] (n8), Camikaze [Made] (n8), Frozen in Ice [wiseguy] (n8), woad&fangs [townie] (n9), Zack [townie] (n9), Zim [Luca] (n9), Choxorn [townie] (n9), dcmort93 [townie] (n9), Diamondeye [wiseguy] (n10),
AggonyKing [townie] (n10), God Emperor [made] (n10), Skotsko [made] (n10), slash and earn [townie] (n10), thefluffyone93 [rogue detective] (n10), Craterus [townie] (n11), Peasant Phill [Don] (n11), Sasaki [Don] (n11), ULC [townie] (n11), Khazaar [townie] (n12), Johhog [Wiseguy] (n12), qlyphz [townie] (n12), Lewwyn [made] (n13), Monk [townie] (n13), Yaropolk [townie] (n13), Cahoma [Luca] (n14), guiri [townie] (n14), Psychonaut [detective] (n14), Scienter [Made] (n14), B_Ray [townie] (n16), gnarlycharlie [Don] (n16), Sigurd [communist recruit] (n16), Sprig [Made] (n16), Clitsome [communist] (n17), fyremarble [don] (n17), gibsonsg91921 [luca] (n17), Winston Hughes [made] (n17), Backwards Logic [Made] (n18), Believer [FBI] (n18), GamezRule [don] (n18), kennigit [Made] (n18), Secura [rogue] (n18), Bsmith [wiseguy] (n19), Jarema [made] (n19), Neri [made] (n19), Tiaexz [made] (n19), White eyes [wiseguy] (n19), Xehh II [wiseguy] (n19), Hero Di Classico (n21)


Lynched = 21: Earthling [townie] (d2), a completely inoffensive name [townie] (d3), Subotan [wiseguy] (d3), Major Robert Dump [wiseguy] (d4), Ishmael [communist] (d5), Montmorency [wiseguy] (d6), landlubber [Made] (d8), Captain Blackadder [townie] (d9), Riedquat [townie] (d10), Edse [surgeon] (d11), Populus Romanus [surgeon] (d12), Crazed Rabbit [made] (d13), Sturmhauke (d15) [townie], The Stranger (d15) [rogue], BillMC [detective] (d16), Erebus (d17) [townie], shlin28 [townie] (d18), Scottishranger [don] (d19), Chaotix (d20), Ironside (d21)

Alive
Askthepizzaguy [Don], Autolycus [Made], Beefy187 [surgeon], DaveShack [Shyster], Death is yonder [surgeon], Diana Abnoba [Made], Double A [Made], Krill [Made], LazyMcCrow [serial killer], Nightbringer [surgeon], Niklas [Made], O!TheLastDays! [Communist defector], Seon [surgeon], SisterCoyote [surgeon]

The powerful roles I knew about and I attacked, [Tincow, Andres, Arjos, etc, were not attacked by me or known to me] I didn't attack right away. Most of them, I didn't bother hitting until the very late game, if at all.

Then I went after basic townies, basic townies, other mafiosi, and wiseguys.

Obviously there was a pattern there, and the several town doctors should have compensated. Or at least guessed randomly and made a save that wasn't orchestrated by myself more often, if they were gunning for a town victory.

Now, it's a game of wine in front of me. Which person is protected? Is it the obvious person?

Well, I decided the obvious people were protected and largely, they were, or at the very least, the least obvious people to protect were not protected.

At some point, townies could have risked things and tried to protect folks that fit the pattern of who seemed to be dying.



I say that because something similar could have been attempted with the shyster's protection. Obviously Askthepizzaguy is going to be the lynch protection, so everyone else is not covered, they're all exposed. They can be hit, no problem. Once you realize this, the shyster ceases to be a problem at all during the day for everyone besides Askthepizzaguy. You lynch people besides ATPG, and soon, the shyster is worthless unless he does what he's supposed to do, and tries to guess who will be lynched, instead of being told.

Holy cow, we have a game!

Or with the vigilantes. Game is to remove gangsters or the shyster. So, hit gangsters... maybe I'll try to protect them instead of the shyster, to keep my people alive. Then, a properly timed strike against DaveShack would have worked. (Or, as it turned out, most strikes against DaveShack would have worked) Or maybe just lynch DaveShack, surely between the town and the gangsters I was fighting with, they could all agree Dave needed to go so I'd be exposed. I could count many rounds where I had unfriendly relations with over half the players and they would have all leaped at the chance to destroy DaveShack, and every mafia family knew who he was, and not every mafia family loved Askthepizzaguy.

Or if you're left fighting a hopeless battle or so it seems, and you feel you're not going to win anyway, why not take a shot at the lawyer, the way Renata took a shot at me before she died? Why not take the shot? So what if you think he's going to be protected. Attack the lawyer AND gangsters. I can't cover everyone. Someone is going to die, and eventually it's going to be the lawyer, unless I plan on running a mafia empire of just myself and Dave. In a game where the right answer is the one I am trying to make everyone think is wrong, someone should have called my bluff and tried to kill Dave. Even if it seemed like the wrong thing to do because it was too obvious.



I could be explaining myself wrong and with too many words again. Let me start over...

Looking for cracks in the defense is what we're getting at? If we're thorough, we would have found the crack going straight up the front door, and found that the door is hanging off its hinges. We can do that while we're examining the solid stone outer walls for weaknesses too.

Finally, more than half the doctors had no love for me, and mafia families were gunning for me. Protect the folks that wanted to kill my gangsters, and soon enough, I'd be forced to try to cover my gangsters as well, or die in a hopeless shoot-out. Then Dave would be exposed.

Something could have been done. There was more than zero options. Some of them weren't even WIFOM-y, they were bruteforce-related like attacking everyone including Dave once or twice, or protecting my enemies and watching them whittle away at my soldiers, or just outvoting the Stracchi/Cunio and getting Dave lynched, by forming a temporary alliance between the town and the rival mafia to take him out.

Those are also solutions, not just being brazen and firing a silly shot at Dave which incidentally would have killed him as well.




Anyway, allow me to step aside and say I could be playing devil's advocate here. I agree with both you and khaan about a lot of things. I would like to friendly-disagree with you that the shyster was game-breaking or should have even been as demoralizing as it was.

It's a powerful and unusual role, I admit. But even dead veterans could still play, and I know there are literally genius players here. You can and will adapt to a role like the shyster and you can and will defeat a role like the shyster if you put your minds to it. I can think of ways to overcome its power without knowing its key weaknesses, just with the vigilantes alone;

Now, okay, the vigilantes were going mafia.

That means the town defeated itself. They could have stayed townie, obliterated the gangsters that were obviously and openly (or leaked) allied to me, and the lawyer wouldn't have meant jack squat. I cannot beat the town even if I can't be lynched or murdered, because I need a mafia family to do it with. They were always up for grabs by everyone. And once I flinch and try to protect them, all of a sudden the keystone to the operation becomes exposed as well. And he was already exposed.

Anyway, I know, I know, how demoralizing the shyster was. I used that demoralization to great effect, but essentially, it's a bluff. I cannot win with just myself and Dave or even the doctors protecting us. Eventually I need gangsters with me. Kill them.

I cannot cover Dave and my gangsters and my doctors. Someone has to die. Rock, paper, scissors...

It's a puzzle that could have been solved blind by trial and error or random luck. It was not at all impossible and being demoralized becomes an excuse, because folks like Earthling and others never stopped fighting even while dead, they wanted me dead in the worst way, someone in this group of 116 other players would have had the energy, the drive, the ambition, and the thinking power to solve it. And I think most everyone had the thinking power and ambition. If they lacked the energy and drive, then I succeeded in bluffing them into submission.

But I was in no way invulnerable. This Pizza dragon could have been slain, you just have to get past the image of invulnerability. It's designed to scare you away but it holds very little real power.

I know you guys understand what I'm saying. I know there were folks with energy dedicated to my destruction even after GH and Khaan left the game. Someone would have and could have thought of ways to remove the lawyer, and someone else, several of them, eventually all of them, had the proper data.

As such, I can only argue that town defeated itself.... the lawyer and my bluster might have convinced them to, but they made the choice. I could never make that choice for them.



Is that too harsh an assessment, or do I have a point here? Feel free to tell me if you think otherwise. I think I do have a point.

[Askthepizzaguy]

And to Khaan-

Granted, I'll never try to convince you a lynch-blocking role is one you should embrace. That's like me and too many sane detectives, you'll never convince me it's a game of mafia with those around, it's a game of let's make sure Askthepizzaguy isn't mafia, or kill him. That said, this game was quite winnable by any faction, even when the town fell behind the mafia. Being outnumbered or even outgunned is not the end. I can point you to several games where multiple mafia families faced off, and a minority town posed a huge threat and won or drew the game. And ultimately the shyster was not powerful at all if you were trying to lynch people besides Askthepizzaguy. And then I became Director and couldn't kill anyway, therefore I wasn't even the main immediate threat. And I was still asking for protection which sometimes I didn't get.

There's another thing. How about the human error angle? Why not try to hit Dave or Pizza anyway, in case someone forgot to send in orders? It can happen.

I couldn't have survived some of those rounds if every townie showed up. The Clemenza won through the town's full forces not being there at the critical moment. What about the mafia's? Surely someone might have forgotten or arrived too late once or twice in the game. Stubborn persistence could have won out. If anything, it forces me to allocate resources to protecting the shyster and those protecting the shyster and leaves everyone else vulnerable to the lynch and the murder...

It's just like playing against doctors. You don't have to go after the people the doctor protects, the game is to make the doctor useless by hitting those he's not protecting. Then in order to become at all effective, the doctor has to start guessing who dies, and it becomes a game.

The shyster is basically a doctor against the lynch. If viewed from that angle, the same tactics to defeat doctors work on the shyster, and its power becomes almost meaningless.

I may say these things because I have played in games where I was investigated Night One and still had to find ways to win. I had games where I was facing off against a town where there was nothing but roleblockers, and I had to try to find ways to win.

Sometimes the game setup or circumstances seem unfair, but how we react to those circumstances shows who we are as players.

I knew I'd be scanned and exposed as mafia, so what did I do? I adapted by making sure I wouldn't scan as mafia, and had zero kills, yet I was advancing my aims.



Folks gotta tackle unfamiliar and harsh, even losing circumstances with the same gusto they tackle a winning game, because won games require little further finesse to win. There is true glory to be had is winning a supposedly losing game, and I know there's lots of folks here who have the creativity and track record to do exactly that, especially with a talent pool this large.

Granted the shyster is a huge trump card, but I believe in you guys, and I think you could have done it. I know you are better than my bluffs or that one role. You can beat it. I did my best to convince you that you could not, because I was scared the entire time you'd not be convinced of that and promptly ruin me. And it was a very real fear I had.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Let me just ask you a simple question. Could you have successfully won the game as Capo di Tutti Capi without the presence of the Shyster role?

[Backwards Logic]

Now, take a walk in their shoes for a minute. They're looking for cracks in the system. Are they going to expect your ace in the hole to be so deliberately open? No, of course not. That would be the waste of a night action better spent elsewhere. It would be almost as foolish as attacking you directly. They're looking for people to turn, to whittle down your numbers. They're not going to go after the keystone to your entire operation.

Bingo. It's exactly the reason the Corelone never burned a kill attempt on DaveShack directly. The plan, working under the assumption the only thing keeping ATPG alive was DaveShack and in turn would have one of ATPG's goon doc's protecting him constantly, meant wasting the attack at night would be pointless, and if covered by a Surgeon, borderline suicidal. My line of thinking had always centered around wiping out ATPG's docs, as they formed the backbone along with the shyster of his power. He could swing a war anyway he wanted with the combo by negating kills at night and/or diverting lynches to whoever, especially after Dave's promotion (which after the promotion was completely and totally broken as a mechanic. Talk about overpowered. Once I heard he was promoted from something already extremely powerful and found out what the new deal was I was pretty deflated).

As for doing nothing with DaveShack, I had a few plans in place that just needed the okay to put in motion along with maybe an extra day or two to get the kills required. Unsanctioned kills of the Docs that would likely be protecting him followed by another night's hit on him and the remaining docs. Unfortunately, the Corelone 'rebellion' screwed things up early (the whole Scottishranger ordeal), which led to 1) not having enough Mades to pull it off and 2) needing to buy time to get the recruits we did have trained to Made. By the time 1) and 2) were underway, ATPG had begun to whittle us - the attack that killed Scienter hurt badly, then followed by the S/K on Winston and the ridiculously uncalled for attack on Sigurd. In the middle of those attacks, we couldn't do much of anything with regards to training the recruits. I'm not happy with our relative inaction during this period either, but that's another story. So long story short: Assuming ATPG would have DaveShack protected at all times, it meant to kill him we'd have to kill the docs first to expose him. Lynching was out of the question as well - lynching him early wouldn't have been possible as everyone was still waving the 'I'm for the mafia' flag, and going against it meant getting night killed by the families. By the end when people finally realized what was going on it was too late - ATPG was winning the next day or close to it and would have (did have) vote superiority.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Let me just ask you a simple question. Could you have successfully won the game as Capo di Tutti Capi without the presence of the Shyster role?

Using the tactics I used here? No, absolutely not.

But someone might have, and it might have been a starting family, and I could have gotten my close victory, or I could have used slightly different tactics and joined one of the families earlier than I did, and had a very real shot at a victory higher than "close". The knowledge of there being a shyster changed my tactics that I was willing to use, of course. But it should have changed the tactics others used as well.

It did affect the outcome but even with the shyster, there was absolutely no way to force a win, no way to force my way to being Don, no way to force being Capo di Tutti Capi. It always required compliance by someone; allies, neutrals, even enemies being disenchanted with their chances of winning. I was in no way in control of the game, everyone always had their free will, and not just my play but the character I was playing was quite literally trying to convince people that they had no choices and the game was rigged. People chose to believe that. Others chose not to believe it and kept fighting, but they needed the winning strategy, the winning shot to take down the lawyer, perhaps, or just the mades, or myself. I couldn't have won without at least two of those things surviving. Any plan could have taken out one of them, brute force eventually kills the mades or the lawyer and its protection. But luck and finesse and good tactics can force an overworked defender to move, or render it ineffective.

It's one of those chess principles. Sure I could defend the lawyer but I couldn't defend everything and I can't win without Mades and I can't be Capo without myself alive. So I can't cover everything. And a sustained assault on the Mades would have forced me to lose them, or cover them up. Overworked doctors/mades cannot defend everything. Once that's the case, then it becomes a game of WIFOM as to which thing I need alive will die, and guessing correctly wins that game.


I think your question was meant to lead to another one, so I'll :quiet: myself and listen.

[seireikhaan]

Pizza, I think we're drifting a hair off from what the issue we were presenting. While the presence of the Shyster obviously had a great impact on this game, the ultimate point of discussion was to talk about it somewhat more generally speaking. In other words, what likely outcomes would come from repeated 'experiments' with the game.

Did the shyster imbalance the game, encouraging mafia-like behavior? Yes, that was predictable, once the role came to light. Was it it a nuke that ended the game right there? No, but that's not necessary to imbalance the game. If we must ask the question of whether the Shyster could be overcome, the question of its overall game balance is easy for me to answer. I'd simply like to reiterate what exactly this role got and was. It got access to all five starting Dons. It could protect them from lynch, when the only way to slay a don at night is to first deal with the Luca. It could do this for as many day phases as it wanted. And on top of that, it upgraded when successful. When I saw the documentation of Daveshack's role pm, my jaw dropped. I honestly was shocked. I couldn't believe Seamus had made such a general purpose mafia weapon. What I'm saying is- the role can singlehandedly tip the game balance severely, and would likely do so the great majority of the time, if we were to run repeated tests of Capo on individuals with no prior knowledge of the role's existence. It would, most of the time, come down to either the shyster being very careless, or a random lucky vig attempt very early in the game to remove it before the damage was done.

Summary- you're claiming that there's no way for you to force victory through just by yourself and the shyster. True? Yeah, more or less. But that we have to discuss this, in my opinion, speaks volumes about the general imbalance of the role.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Summary- you're claiming that there's no way for you to force victory through just by yourself and the shyster. True? Yeah, more or less. But that we have to discuss this, in my opinion, speaks volumes about the general imbalance of the role.

And I love these discussions, and I'd like to reiterate that I think your opinions on this matter come from deep experience, deeper than my own perhaps, and they're also valid regardless of whether I agree with them or not, and I happen to agree it's one of those "overpowered" roles.


:bow: I have great respect for you both. Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I prefer the term friendly discussion. I don't even really disagree by much.




Bringing it back to a discussion about "balance", however, balance is a different issue from overpowered roles. A game with nothing but overpowered roles is a balanced game. A boring game, or a chaotic mess of a game, but a balanced one. Any faction can win, it's a matter of how, and under those circumstances it's largely blind luck and that's why I hate all-power-role games.

For balance, let's talk about the town which not only begins with a doctor but can literally forge more doctors. Then, the doctors protect each other, while we forge more doctors. It's boring but it can be done with two simple saves. It's the easiest power role to promote to in this game and lots and lots of people did it, even with the allure of going mafia here.

Then those doctors can promote to a role that kills folks that attack its target.

Unless the mafia expands to the size necessary to outright control the vote, that's insanely powerful for the town.

That, is, overpowered. No other mafia game has this many doctors, who can protect against infinite attacks on the same target at night, and even potentially kill the attacker, and has the capability of turning literally every townie that survives into a doctor.

You talk about imbalance? That's a brute force win for the townies. The reason why people don't do that is because it's boring as heck, and some people still did it.

This game also allows almost any townie to become mafia. How does town win a game like that? It doesn't, if town decides to become mafia.

Again, the game is vastly "imbalanced" due to the power of any given basic role to become mafia or a doctor. Against a shyster, it dwarfs the power of a shyster. No amount of shysterism could stop a dedicated town from being a brute force town win, no amount of shysterism could prevent townies from going mafia and eventually defeating him and his allies. There were too many townies, and almost any townie could become mafia or doctor.

So, if we're talking balance, you have to add in all the other roles or you're only discussing part of the equation, and then it's not an equation anymore, and if it's not an equation then it's not a comparison about balance.

So, the shyster is powerful. So is a serial killer. So is a Mafia Don/Luca/Made gangster combination. So is a group of doctors. All those elements are in the game. They are all added to the equation...


Now you talk about how the lynch is sacred; yeah it's a big part of it, but it represents less than half of the townie's kill power by far. In Capo III there was absolutely no way to rid the town of all the mafia by lynch, there were too many. You had to kill them.

Townies can vig-kill in groups. They can promote to wiseguy and vig-kill in even smaller groups. They can become rogue detectives and kill scanned criminals by themselves. And there were how many townies and wiseguys in the game?

Ultimately, town made a choice, to not be town anymore. That means each of those players made a high-stakes gamble that they'd be on the winning family. They mostly lost that gamble and would have been far better off staying townie, in retrospect, isn't that so?

And if they did, the shyster would have been meaningless.

Again, my main point is that the town always had the power to win, and they willingly, even eagerly, gave it up. The game is quite balanced, shyster or no. Overpowered that it might be, a wiseguy is also overpowered and there were lots of those and they can win with the town.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A couple of points.


For balance, let's talk about the town which not only begins with a doctor but can literally forge more doctors. Then, the doctors protect each other, while we forge more doctors. It's boring but it can be done with two simple saves. It's the easiest power role to promote to in this game and lots and lots of people did it, even with the allure of going mafia here.

In this example, the promotion of doctors and thereof is dependent on the players wanting to go doctor in the first place, which is an individual choice and, as we've seen in this game, nowhere near the most popular route. Whereas the Shyster role is by design only affecting one side. It is specifically a mafia-aligned role designed to save mafiosi. There is no ambiguity.


So, the shyster is powerful. So is a serial killer. So is a Mafia Don/Luca/Made gangster combination. So is a group of doctors. All those elements are in the game. They are all added to the equation...

The Shyster is powerful because it's a support role that directly enhances the power of an already powerful combination.


Now you talk about how the lynch is sacred; yeah it's a big part of it, but it represents less than half of the townie's kill power by far. In Capo III there was absolutely no way to rid the town of all the mafia by lynch, there were too many. You had to kill them.

No, the lynch is never going to be the primary way to remove massive amounts of numbers in a game like this.

But we're not talking about numbers. We're talking about individual people.

The lynch is supposed to be a safety valve; the option of last resort. If all of the night options are failing - if someone is too well-protected at night, if they're literally unkillable because they're the Director - the lynch is always there. When all else fails the town can go to it to remove a single individual. In a numbers game such as this where we regularly saw a half-dozen people killed per night, yes, it doesn't count much.

However, in the grand scheme of things, it counts for a lot. And when that's gone, that's big.

[seireikhaan]

And I love these discussions, and I'd like to reiterate that I think your opinions on this matter come from deep experience, deeper than my own perhaps, and they're also valid regardless of whether I agree with them or not, and I happen to agree it's one of those "overpowered" roles.


:bow: I have great respect for you both. Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I prefer the term friendly discussion. I don't even really disagree by much.
Naturally. Simply a discussion.



Bringing it back to a discussion about "balance", however, balance is a different issue from overpowered roles. A game with nothing but overpowered roles is a balanced game. A boring game, or a chaotic mess of a game, but a balanced one. Any faction can win, it's a matter of how, and under those circumstances it's largely blind luck and that's why I hate all-power-role games.

For balance, let's talk about the town which not only begins with a doctor but can literally forge more doctors. Then, the doctors protect each other, while we forge more doctors. It's boring but it can be done with two simple saves. It's the easiest power role to promote to in this game and lots and lots of people did it, even with the allure of going mafia here.

Then those doctors can promote to a role that kills folks that attack its target.

Unless the mafia expands to the size necessary to outright control the vote, that's insanely powerful for the town.

That, is, overpowered. No other mafia game has this many doctors, who can protect against infinite attacks on the same target at night, and even potentially kill the attacker, and has the capability of turning literally every townie that survives into a doctor.

You talk about imbalance? That's a brute force win for the townies. The reason why people don't do that is because it's boring as heck, and some people still did it.

This game also allows almost any townie to become mafia. How does town win a game like that? It doesn't, if town decides to become mafia.

Again, the game is vastly "imbalanced" due to the power of any given basic role to become mafia or a doctor. Against a shyster, it dwarfs the power of a shyster. No amount of shysterism could stop a dedicated town from being a brute force town win, no amount of shysterism could prevent townies from going mafia and eventually defeating him and his allies. There were too many townies, and almost any townie could become mafia or doctor.

So, if we're talking balance, you have to add in all the other roles or you're only discussing part of the equation, and then it's not an equation anymore, and if it's not an equation then it's not a comparison about balance.

So, the shyster is powerful. So is a serial killer. So is a Mafia Don/Luca/Made gangster combination. So is a group of doctors. All those elements are in the game. They are all added to the equation...


Now you talk about how the lynch is sacred; yeah it's a big part of it, but it represents less than half of the townie's kill power by far. In Capo III there was absolutely no way to rid the town of all the mafia by lynch, there were too many. You had to kill them.

Townies can vig-kill in groups. They can promote to wiseguy and vig-kill in even smaller groups. They can become rogue detectives and kill scanned criminals by themselves. And there were how many townies and wiseguys in the game?

Ultimately, town made a choice, to not be town anymore. That means each of those players made a high-stakes gamble that they'd be on the winning family. They mostly lost that gamble and would have been far better off staying townie, in retrospect, isn't that so?

And if they did, the shyster would have been meaningless.

Again, my main point is that the town always had the power to win, and they willingly, even eagerly, gave it up. The game is quite balanced, shyster or no. Overpowered that it might be, a wiseguy is also overpowered and there were lots of those and they can win with the town.
Well, I would disagree that a wiseguy is overpowered- a wiseguy alone doesn't do a whole lot, now does he? He requires teamwork- a reliable group with which to function. If he cannot find this, he is pretty much useless on his own.

Naturally, I won't argue that the town certainly has tools. But the town needs cooperation and luck. Doctors can be difficult to create, and even when created, face a guessing game unless they can somehow infiltrate a mafia network and not get caught. Protection groups to supplement the docs can be prone to player error and betrayal, both common stock in a game of mafia. Similar for rogues- and made even more difficult by issues of luck and and possible random docs or don hits. Finding reliable cooperation amongst strangers is the hardest part about Capo. The shyster gets to ignore that factor of the game altogether. His cooperation is already secured- he already knows everyone he needs to know at the beginning of the game. Therefore, it just becomes a matter of figuring which of the Dons to support and when. What Don(na), striving for victory, wouldn't be doing everything in their power to be the shyster's best friend?


Did the town give up in this game? For the most part, yeah. The docs did an admiral job, but that was nowhere near enough. But I still trace that to the issue of two defunct lynches. It's not hard to convince people to abandon it en masse when one of their primary tools, the one thing that can nail a Don without having to take apart his whole network first, is rendered null. When someone can clamor about and gloat of the evil primacy, taunt the masses with how evil they are, and it proves literally impossible to remove them for it, I just have issues. You could play a whole different game when you knew you couldn't be lynched. You could leak anything you darn well pleased. That gives easy access to the first pillar of persuasion- charm. You could tell anyone anything, and they'd believe you until someone finally called out the inconsistencies. And when you can simply wink at them as you prance off the lynch platform twice, you establish the 2nd, sturdier pillar of persuasion- pure power. By this point, why stand against you when joining the mafia gives you a better chance of winning? Only the most defiant would stick to what, by all appearances, is a suicide course. Yes, yes, they still have the choice, but let's be honest about this- we know what people picked this time, and they'd all do it again in a heartbeat to win.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A couple of points.

In this example, the promotion of doctors and thereof is dependent on the players wanting to go doctor in the first place, which is an individual choice and, as we've seen in this game, nowhere near the most popular route. Whereas the Shyster role is by design only affecting one side. It is specifically a mafia-aligned role designed to save mafiosi. There is no ambiguity.

True enough, and an incorruptible FPD detective designed to hunt down mafiosi, penetrate cover roles, and even discover who you've killed and who you killed them with, is a specifically town-aligned role designed to save townies, and they had multiples of those, had or could make doctors to protect them.


The Shyster is powerful because it's a support role that directly enhances the power of an already powerful combination.

In Capo III the problem was nobody wanted to go mafia because the doctors/protections/investigation combination was too powerful and we kept guessing correctly/getting lucky. Those elements were all here, by the way, countered by a lone mafia trump card, the lawyer, who could protect one person by guessing they'd be lynched the night before. Town had all the elements it had from Capo III and then more of them because they were bigger, and had more time to forge doctors because they had more bodies and a lower starting mafia versus town percentage. The only difference is that instead of the Mafia Commissioner, who also had contacts with every Don, who could investigate 4 times a night, they had a guy who could stop a lynch by correctly predicting it.

That's all, and it's slightly more powerful if used correctly than the Mafia Commissioner but the town had ample compensation for it already as demonstrated by the last game, where they won with fewer tools in their toolbox. Sure, there were fewer incorruptibles this time, but it still meant that people had the free will to choose their destiny. They freely chose the destiny of trying to go mafia, and it largely blew up in their faces, because now they were turning against a faction that had more than 70 players on it and tried to win with factions that were much smaller, that were competing against each other, and would be backstabbed from within.


However, in the grand scheme of things, it counts for a lot. And when that's gone, that's big.

I agree that it's big and not insignificant.

But we're also talking about a lynch or two out of 22 of them.

We've also seen lynch-stoppage abilities and roles before. Andres' Daggers in the Night game had two people who could stop a lynch once, they both used it on Kagemusha to make him appear immortal and we believed it. And there were far fewer lynches in that game. Nobody complained about how sacred the lynch was there.

We've had Force Breath in Sigurd's star wars game. Roles that survived a lynch or two in my ATPG Mafia II game. And as annoying as those games were at times, the games were always winnable by the town and they all came very close to being a town win.

I just find it interesting that this role is shocking, it's power is shocking, when we've seen and countered power like it before, in situations where every lynch was far more critical because there were fewer of them and NO VIGILANTES.

You could have ignored the shyster and myself once I became Director, because between us, we were one vote and zero murders for the mafia side, and everyone thought our continued existence was the end of the world. It wasn't in the slightest. Almost every other mafioso was up for grabs and they were vulnerable, and I even let the shyster twist in the wind because I saw this coming and played it as fairly as I could. You just had to kill him and people didn't try.

[GeneralHankerchief]

We've also seen lynch-stoppage abilities and roles before. Andres' Daggers in the Night game had two people who could stop a lynch once, they both used it on Kagemusha to make him appear immortal and we believed it. And there were far fewer lynches in that game. Nobody complained about how sacred the lynch was there.

We've had Force Breath in Sigurd's star wars game. Roles that survived a lynch or two in my ATPG Mafia II game. And as annoying as those games were at times, the games were always winnable by the town and they all came very close to being a town win.

Contrast with the Shyster and its infinitely reusable lynch block ability.

Also, I'll have you note that I went inactive after I was lynched in Daggers in the Night and didn't play the other two games, otherwise I would have complained equally as hard in those. :laugh4: IIRC there was a role in The Settlement as well, which I wasn't too happy about either but long dead by that point anyway.

[Beefy187]

Thank you to Seamus, GH and Khaan to start with.
And thanks to everyone who made this into a great game :bow:

Once again I lost against RL... And I need to apologize to those who I let down because of it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Only the most defiant would stick to what, by all appearances, is a suicide course. Yes, yes, they still have the choice, but let's be honest about this- we know what people picked this time, and they'd all do it again in a heartbeat to win.

But let's be wiser in retrospect.

Who wins the game if not one of the starting families? The town or the new family.

Town has the option not to join the starting families. Town has the option not to join the new family.

Why gamble away all the tools and support being townie brings you on the chance to be part of one of the families, to take a chance that your family will be the one that prevails? If you're really a townie, you should fight for your side and join the mafia perhaps as a last resort when the town is beaten.

The town has hardly beaten by round 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7.... and thensome. But people willingly left the town en masse to become one of three or four or five families.... reducing their chances of winning by town against the mafia (good odds, if people stick together, let's call it 1:2) to their chances of winning as a particular mafia family against a particular other family against another family against another one against the still living town.

That was a bad gamble.

I know being mafia is awesome and all, but you depart the huge, powerful, town faction and join the mafia, you'd better be sure that's the one that's going to win. Because the odds are against it, just because only one Don can survive and you've pinned all your hopes on that guy, or being that guy, instead of using the vast protection, killing, and investigating resources of the town.

You also can't switch back. At least as wiseguy you can win as town, or become mafia. Once you go mafia, you never go back. You cut off your winning choices. People should have promoted to wiseguy, killed off all existing mafia, and either won as town, or decided to go mafia then. They became mafia prematurely and closed off their options, IMO.

Whether it's more fun to be mafia or not, town abandoned itself and its own resources to gamble a risky gamble on being mafia and only 6 people ended up winning with that gamble out of 100+ others. It wasn't a good bet. If folks had stayed townie it was a much safer bet they'd have won.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Contrast with the Shyster and its infinitely reusable lynch block ability.

Also, I'll have you note that I went inactive after I was lynched in Daggers in the Night and didn't play the other two games, otherwise I would have complained equally as hard in those. :laugh4: IIRC there was a role in The Settlement as well, which I wasn't too happy about either but long dead by that point anyway.

GH, I was just as frustrated as anyone else when I faced off against the lynch survivors in those games. But I did see the games were playable and winnable after I saw the game exposed at the end, and although I didn't care for some of those mechanics, I felt the game host did a good job balancing such an unusual component into the game.

Here, I feel the same way. I don't think Seamus made a major blunder introducing the shyster, especially after the mafia had such a rough go of it in III. How we reacted to the role, we could have reacted better.

I did mention to landlubber I had access to such a role and we tried to lynch me not once, but twice. Mayhaps lynching one of my obvious allies was a wiser move? I'd cover myself, of course, being the face of everything and the main recruiter. Therefore, if folks assumed I was not bluffing about the lawyer, they wouldn't have even had one of their lynches blocked, let alone three.

I do commend you on your commitment to principle about these sorts of mechanics, and I don't begrudge you your position regarding them. They're all quite valid, and similar concerns are why I hate true investigators. But, we adapt and develop tactics to defeat them.... is ultimately my reply to your criticism of the role.

Your criticism is still valid; I think my response to the role and suggestions about how to overcome it are also valid. I saw the roleblock move against the lawyer and nearly died because of it and right there, town outnumbered and nearly defeated, almost stole the game back. That kind of ingenuity is what you needed and it needed to happen a couple rounds prior is all, and everyone showing up. We lost that vote on paper, in practice there were missing votes and it was a tie, WITH a townie turncoat helping us.

So.... I mean, we still should have lost, and it's a miracle I'm even here.

[seireikhaan]

It's all a gamble, Pizza. But the biggest gamble? Trying to set up your own small groups. The ones to get vigs going, or to get docs going. Any one person could flake out or be a mole.

Shyster? No worries. As I mentioned, he already knew everyone he needed to. He knew five of the most crucial players to the game, practically from the outset.


And, as far as the poor gamble for mafioso- I'd say it's not too bad, considering that mades can join up with new families, even if their Don dies. In fact, an unaligned made becomes a valued asset to fight over. So I wouldn't say it's too shabby. Yeah, a lot of people died in this game and only a small number got their victory. But those that did also know that they contributed that much more to the victory. They were 1/6th of that final effort, as opposed to, say, 1/20th or 1/10th. It gives a greater sense of personal empowerment, I'd say. So it's not all that farfetched for people to go mafia.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's all a gamble, Pizza. But the biggest gamble? Trying to set up your own small groups. The ones to get vigs going, or to get docs going. Any one person could flake out or be a mole.

Don't I know it. I spent basically the whole game plugging leaks and drowning moles in Capo III and I had a whole network and the mafia had numerous handicaps like one family turning itself in for no reason and another one getting their Made outed on the first round, crippling them. I still had a tough time because the flakes, turncoats, and moles made even a huge, high-morale, and mostly loyal network dangerous and vulnerable.


Shyster? No worries. As I mentioned, he already knew everyone he needed to. He knew five of the most crucial players to the game, practically from the outset.

Well, he didn't know them, they knew him.

Let's suppose the Dons played it right, and never revealed the lawyer's power to anyone, just used it to try to help themselves survive.

Then it becomes a game for the lawyer of which of 5 Dons to protect. It's a guessing game. The situation where EVERYONE wanted Pizza DEAD and I knew that was going to happen and I knew who the lawyer was, was a situation that shouldn't have happened. If I were to tweak the role it would be so that it protects ONLY Mafia Dons or Lucas; non-killing gangsters.

That would be a good fix, I think.

If the role was played "as intended", it wouldn't have been nearly as powerful, and with one minor tweak, it becomes little more than a blip on the screen. And let's face it, if I hadn't contacted the lawyer or known about the role, the odds were high you wouldn't have seen a SINGLE lynch save.

Think about it... how does the lawyer predict who dies in a game of 100 people, when the deciding factor is the popular vote?

That's not very likely to happen at all during the course of the game, before the lawyer is killed by a gangster, or killed by a vigilante, or lynched.

The situation that happened here is unusual because I attained Don-level information and basically played to abuse its power to maximum total effectiveness.

You couldn't have abused that role any harder than I did. That was also unusual. I was playing to make myself the lynch target, I was over-the-top scummy. It worked to goad folks into lynching me and that gave me even more power, but the role was known about by the mafia before then and not all of them were in my pocket and after the first lynch and it was determined that someone else had that power and it wasn't an innate power of my own, we should have lynched other gangsters. Anyone but me.


And, as far as the poor gamble for mafioso- I'd say it's not too bad, considering that mades can join up with new families, even if their Don dies. In fact, an unaligned made becomes a valued asset to fight over.

Unless they're loyal to, say, Renata or Sasaki, and then you've got to kill them before they kill you.... :wink:


So I wouldn't say it's too shabby. Yeah, a lot of people died in this game and only a small number got their victory. But those that did also know that they contributed that much more to the victory. They were 1/6th of that final effort, as opposed to, say, 1/20th or 1/10th. It gives a greater sense of personal empowerment, I'd say. So it's not all that farfetched for people to go mafia.

True, the allure of personal glory is huge, but it doesn't convert to a win as easily as sticking town would have, especially if you convince others to stay with the town.

Thing is, once the group decides to divide up against the town and go into various mafia camps, that team of 80 or so players suddenly becomes teams of 10 or less. By default you're reducing your odds of victory, and joining up with the very gangsters you have to defeat to become the overall winner, instead of staying with your fellow townies and smashing those rivals to bits first. At least then you're among a larger group of friends, and if you die, it has less of an impact on your overall win. If you and a few others are killed when you're a mafia family, it can mean the end of the game for you.

But now we're getting into taking risks for fun, which I say go for it or else the game is boring. I'm just saying when you get down to brass tacks, the game was fair, the lawyer's power could have been blunted considerably, and ordinarily wouldn't have even been known to basically anyone. It was likely to die before it did a darned thing.

[Visor]

*Breaks in*

Alright, a few words on the commies, plus my role PM.

The entirety of the following role sheet is to be considered RED material and revealed only under the circumstances outlined in the role sheet below or with the permission of the host.

Role: Communist Cell Leader

Alignment: Communist (cult)

Summary: You infiltrated the United States as a displaced Pole just after the Great Patriotic War, but you are actually one of the “Swords and Shields of the Party” – KGB. Your general mission was to locate a town in the USA that might be taken over from within, quietly, so as to serve as a forward base for KGB operations and/or to foment a proletarian revolution in the United States. Naturally enough, you ended up in Fatlington.
Currently, you are on the horns of a personal dilemma, and faced with a critical choice. Having tasted life in the West, you are not entirely sure that returning to Stalin’s Russia is what you want – at least not without some great success to ensure that you are elevated to the higher echelons of the KGB…or even the Politburo. You have even thought of defecting, but know that it could carry risks from your own cell-mates if you even begin to tread such a path.
Just recently, you have learned that a US nuclear warheads specialist is trying to defect to the USSR. You have been given a codeword to recognize this scientist so that you might arrange their exfiltration to the Rodina. This could be the plum that assures you elevation upon your eventual return.
Your mission is varied and difficult – and you have a choice to make – but the potential for huge success is there, if you can make it work.

Victory Conditions: Use the following scale to help you plan your strategy:

Decisive Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population.
Clear Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population,
Close Victory = Your Cell, having infiltrated some other faction (town, mafia, etc.), has effective control of Fatlington by having more voices in this “ruling committee” than any other.
Draw = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but 3 or more of your cell members survive (including recruits).
Close Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but one of your original cell members survive.
Clear Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
Crushing Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
• Ensuring that no Fatlington Detective or FBI detective survives raises your victory level by one step.
• Ensuring that none of the mafia Dons survive raises your victory level by one step.
• Your personal death decreases your victory level by two steps.
• Successful exfiltration of the nuke warheads defector raises your victory level by two steps.

NOTE: Should you be given a chance to defect and take that chance, your victory conditions would switch to those of a townie. Your personal survival would count for a two step increase in victory level under such circumstances. In addition, you would gain a further victory step level for the eradication of the remainder of the Communist cell. The defector’s successful exfiltration would lose you two steps under this revision.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. To signal your presence to the defector, you are to use the word “Ker-chop” in the public thread so as to draw their attention (you may also have your deputy or a recruit member do so if you wish). The defector should respond with “Sorge” but cannot PM you until after posting that countersign in the public thread. You are not allowed to PM or otherwise contact the defector until you have seen the countersign posted.

3. Your Cell’s Secretary is Ishmael. Your Secretary is responsible for recruiting, and ust provide you with a list of those successfully recruited (some of whom could be plants). Your Cell’s Enforcer is unknown to you, but is known to your deputy.

4. Should either the Secretary or the Enforce be killed, you can name their replacement from among the recruit members.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work (limit 5) in the same group, though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you by yourself attempt a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have as a 1 in 6 chance of/being revealed by name (though not by role). When attempting a protection you may also investigate one person.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you may to attempt to kill a target. If you do so, you may not investigate anyone that night. As with other such townie groups, fewer than five will automatically fail and a solo effort will not only fail but creates a 1 in 6 chance of your being revealed by name.

3. After having established a full connection with the Defector, you may initiate a two night extraction sequence. The First Night, you, the Defector, and two other communists must write orders indicating that you are making preparations to extract the defector. On the Second Night, you, the Defector and at least two other communists must write orders indicating that you are effecting the extraction. A successful attack (even if stopped by luck but not if stopped by protection) on any member of these teams blocks the extraction process. If that occurs, you must repeat the two-night sequence. The members of the extraction team do NOT need to be the same on both nights, however, except for you and the Defector.

Passive Actions

1. Each night you may investigate one (if doing an active protection group) or two (if not taking any active night action) other players to check their susceptibility to recruitment by the communists.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated, you will be discovered as “innocent” by either a made or a detective. They will have a chance to learn your role, but that chance will be less than their normal chance. If you participate in a successful killing, your status will read “guilty” as would a normal townie (your cover).

2. If conducting an investigation, you will learn if that player is susceptible, possibly susceptible, unlikely, or impossible to recruit. Few if any listed as susceptible will be plants, with an increasing chance of a plant thereafter.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may change as appropriate for a normal townie.

First of all, you guys suck at catching commies. TLD and I were were exchanging codewords in the thread. :P Second of all, we had a bad run of things in my opinion, not only due to luck.

More to come in the next post of mine.

[Visor]

As you can see, I had the potential to betray my cult members. I was approached prior to the game by ATPG about him making me CdTC, etc, like the others got. I thought, why not? And decided to see what would happen. Then I ended up getting my commie role PM. WHich almost nullified my plans. With the ability to betray my team, I contacted ATPG and revealed my entire team to him and my cell mates. I said we need to work together to find the guy who can help me defect. However, I began to quite like my cult mates, and was debating to pretend to be loyal and use ATPG for information until the time came where we could crush him, and then move into a strong position. I was debating this until I died.

Anyway, the commies had:

1 Leader (Possible traitor) - Visor
1 Recruiter - Ishmael
1 Enforcer (Can protect a target every second night, can kill rogue commies (disloyal ones) and can do a roleblock) - Clitsome

We also had TLD who eventually came into contact with us.

The problems with the commies, is that we had far too many unsusceptible people, and everyone was against us regardless of faction, and we were a scum team on our own. We also had no luck traits, any of us I believe. The commies had it too hard I believe, as if the leader rebelled, bang, commies are gone. And also, no-one wanted to join the commies. EVER.

Xenon - Spy
Shlin - SPy
Sigurd - New system forced him
DiY - Nope
Nightbringer - Nope
Edse said nope
I think there were more as well.

They were simply too weak.

But it was a good game regardless, and congrats ATPG and thanks to Seamus, Khaan and GH.

EDIT: My thoughts on DS's role. I didn't personally like it being added into the game.

[Ishmael]

Following on from Visor's post, here's my role PM if anybody is interested:

The entirety of the following role sheet is to be considered RED material and revealed only under the circumstances outlined in the role sheet below or with the permission of the host.

Role: Communist Cell Secretary

Alignment: Communist (cult)

Summary: When you were 16, your father was murdered by the fascists in Spain. Franco’s thugs were not motivated to take prisoners when facing the Abraham Lincoln brigade – and they certainly didn’t care about his U.S. citizenship. The conservatives in the US tried to block every reform and to stifle any effort to make the gentry pay their fair share! The US may have gotten past the ossified class system of Europe, but ownership of the means of production is still firmly locked away from the peop le who actually work for a living. You have taken up your father’s cause with a vengeance.
You have worked your way up in the ranks of those working to bring about the radiant future. Your current cell’s task is to, in blunt terms, take over Fatlington in secret so that it may serve as the springboard for a proletarian revolution to sweep North America, when you can take your place as a key member in the new Soviet. You know that there will be opposition: the government and its police lackeys must be defeated and so must the mafia. In fact, the only thing good about the mafia is that they are at least honest about their exploitative capitalism – but they too are enemies of the future. Your mission is varied and difficult but the potential for huge success is there, if you can make it work.

Victory Conditions: Use the following scale to help you plan your strategy:

Decisive Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population.
Clear Victory = Your Cell wipes out all opposition and takes control of Fatlington outright by recruiting members and eliminating opposition until your faction has a majority of the surviving player population,
Close Victory = Your Cell, having infiltrated some other faction (town, mafia, etc.), has effective control of Fatlington by having more voices in this “ruling committee” than any other.
Draw = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but 3 or more of your cell members survive (including recruits).
Close Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town, but one of your original cell members survive.
Clear Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
Crushing Defeat = A crime family or the townie leadership controls the town and your cell has been destroyed.
• Ensuring that no Fatlington Detective or FBI detective survives raises your victory level by one step.
• Ensuring that none of the mafia Dons survive raises your victory level by one step.
• Your personal death decreases your victory level by one step.
• Recruiting 3 or 4 new members raises your victory level by one, 5 or mor recruits raises it by two.
• Becoming Cell Leader raises your victory level by one step.

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

2. Your Cell’s Leader is Visorslash. Your leader is responsible for acquiring information about potential recruits and for handling any special tasks assigned by higher Soviet authority. Your Cell’s Enforcer is Clitsome, and is tasked with assisting you and/or removing any who attempt to infiltrate the cell. As a security precaution, you know the Cell Enforcer’s identity and the Cell Leader’s identity, but neither of them is known to the other.

3. Should the Cell Leader be killed, you will take over that job and those responsibilities. Should the Enforcer or you be killed, the leader will name your replacement.

4. You must provide the Cell Leader with a list of all successful recruits. Providing this information to the Enforcer is at your discretion.

Nightime:

Active Actions

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work (limit 5) in the same group, though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you by yourself attempt a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have as a 1 in 6 chance of/being revealed by name (though not by role). When attempting a protection you may also investigate one person.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you may to attempt to kill a target. If you do so, you may not investigate anyone that night. As with other such townie groups, fewer than five will automatically fail and a solo effort will not only fail but creates a 1 in 6 chance of your being revealed by name.

3. You may attempt to recruit one other player per night. Depending on their susceptibility level, they will be completely loyal, loyal but not compelled to maintain that loyalty, or a disloyal plant there to damage the cause. The greater the susceptibility level of the recruit target, the more likely you will be recruiting a dedicated new member.

Passive Actions

1. Each night you may investigate one (if doing an active protection group or recruiting effort) or two (if not taking any active night action) other communist cell members to try to determine their loyalty and/or role. This chance starts at a level one step below the success level for basic investigations, but increases in accuracy with each repeat investigation of the same player.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

These are listed in your second pre-game PM and are not to be revealed or discussed during play…only used.

Regarding Investigations

1. If you are investigated, you will be discovered as “unclear” by either a made or a detective. They will have a chance to learn your role, but that chance will be less than their normal chance. If you participate in a successful killing, your status will read “guilty” as would a normal townie (your cover).

2. If conducting an investigation, you will learn if that player is fanatically loyal, probably loyal, seemingly loyal, or disloyal. Initial results may seem “off” but as these investigations deepen, your information will become more accurate.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may change as appropriate for a normal townie.

As well as my special ability (which I didn't end up using):

Special Trait: The Stare

You have “the stare.” Every so often, you can look at somebody and leave them befuddled and listless [Role Blocker]. They will be unable to take any action that night. Unfortunately, because of the splitting headache you get when doing this, neither will you. You may use this ability twice.

I think the thing that did us in was the fact that absolutely nobody was susceptible to recruitment. Seriously, of around 10+ people we recruited/scanned, only 1 (Sigurd) was susceptible and could therefore be recruited as a loyal member (not counting TLD, who was a special case). Speaking of which, would either of our hosts know how susceptibility was determined? Was there a master list somewhere, was it a dice roll, or something else?

Also, apologies to the town for misleading you somewhat as to our numbers - it turns out our huge network that had infiltrated all the families consisted solely of TLD and Sigurd for most of the time we were in contact (here's a QT (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/e2L5a85pL47LK) we had with the town). It's probably my fault, I don't like admitting weakness :D.

EDIT: Aha, I knew I was justified in my suspicion of you at the start Visorslash! You were my N1 loyalty scan, but it came up as 'uncertain' and so I ignored it :D.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If the commies had gotten a doctor or two, or snagged some mafiosi... that would have been brutal.

People kept saying "no", what was wrong with them?

Oh yeah, I knew who the commies were and told people I was going to obliterate them. There might have been that.

[Visor]

Oh yeah, I knew who the commies were and told people I was going to obliterate them. There might have been that.

The only reason I told you that is because defection was a good plan. :P

But the guy, Tratorix died, that's why I said DAMN YOU TRATORIX after his alignment was revealed. :P

Also, I believe that some of those people we tried to recruit were unsceptible anyway. :P

[Askthepizzaguy]

That's why I said DAMN YOU TRATORIX after his alignment was revealed. :P

People need reasons to say "damn you Tratorix" now? :dizzy2: I always thought it was implied.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay, so let's tally it up, shall we.


1) Donna Stracchi reveals herself to me, unprompted. (fyremarble)
2) Don Cunio reveals himself to me, unprompted. (gnarlycharlie)
3) Made Corleone reveals herself to me. (Renata)
4) Town doctors reveal themselves to me. (Beefy, Nightbringer, Populus Romanus....)
5) Serial Killer reveals himself to me, unprompted. (Kagemusha)
6) Communist Cell leader reveals himself to me. (Visorslash)
7) Communist Cell leader reveals entire cult to me. (Ishmael, OTLD, Clitsome)
8) Stracchi Don reveals Made and Luca to me (Moros, Camikaze)
9) FPD reveals himself early for no reason, publicly (BillMc)
10) FBI agent reveals himself to me. (Believer)
11) When prompted, half the wiseguys in the game and the townies who want to do vig kills reveal themselves to me.


Then I use my contacts, their investigation results, and deductive reasoning based on night action results I can see, and all of a sudden I know who basically everyone is except for the other Serial Killer, with a small margin of error.


Here's my issue. I can't just hand over fyremarble and gnarlycharlie and Renata to the town, that's lame as all heck.

I also can't just hand over the entire communist cell to the FBI.... or the FBI to the communist cell.

I also don't want to hand over all the doctors to the mafia.

I know too much information and what I decided to do with it was make everyone who wanted to promote into someone stronger, and largely left the power roles alone for as long as possible, so you guys would have a fairer game. But I shouldn't have to make choices like that. Stop revealing everything to me even when I ask, and especially when I don't, or else this sort of stuff happens. I addressed this before the game and yall didn't listen to me. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137890-Capo-Off-topic-discussion&p=2053370966&viewfull=1#post2053370966)


Thing is I'm not really given a choice; if there is a pro-town network they usually try to get me not only involved, but overly informed. Soon I learn all the sensitive info and have more control over the game than anyone really should. It gets boring on repeat viewings as I said. And I've done it. I've done it to death.... Buffy Mafia, Capo III, Pirate Ship, Midgard, Rubicon, you name it, I've done it to death.

I don't wanna. I am clearly not the only person in a group of 110 who could perform this task. Someone else can be your star quarterback, easily! LOTS of talented folks here. Lots of highly experienced, highly motivated, friendly, communicative, active, cunning people. They really deserve a shot at that role, and if I am competing for such a role, people will likely go for me again based on old patterns. I have to decline.

I put a lot of effort into signing up other folks because at the heart of this game, I want to see others succeed in the big game. I have my superbowl trophy and thensome by now, and you're overlooking a lot of talent if you don't look elsewhere first. As talkative as I am and as much effort as I put into the game, I do recognize this is not a game all about Askthepizzaguy.

I do not want Capo IV to be all about Askthepizzaguy. So I must request that folks not expect me to fill in the same familiar roles.

That's the first point. It's not fun, and it's time for others to shine. Let's do something different.


You did not listen to me, and I told you not to do this same kind of stuff and you did it anyway.


You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.


You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.


You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.


You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.


You'll be blabbing your identities to me ANYWAY, I can't stop you, I've asked enough times and you never listen.

You never listen.



This is what happens. Stop making me the center of the pro-town network, I'm just going to repeat everything you told me in-thread from now on, forever. STOP IT.

If I ask you for your info.... try saying no sometimes!

[Visor]

On my part, to be fair, you contacted me before the game, and considering I had a chance to defect, I thought that I'd follow through with your plan.

[Askthepizzaguy]

On my part, to be fair, you contacted me before the game, and considering I had a chance to defect, I thought that I'd follow through with your plan.

And then LazyMcCrow comes along and stabs you to death and all of a sudden you're the dead leader of a communist cult that I'm aware of completely who also doesn't trust me and stops communicating with me for the most part.... It just didn't work out too well for you guys after that.


We can't change what happened in this game, this is more a lesson re-re-re-learned; blabbing it all to Pizza is a recipe for boredom or disaster or both.

[Visor]

Pretty much. Oh well. I regret nothing.

Except not getting protection in hindsight. :P

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pretty much. Oh well. I regret nothing.

Except not getting protection in hindsight. :P

Yeah that was probably the big one.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, who am I kidding? Nobody learned any lessons, least of all me. If I've learned anything it is that I can tell everyone what I'm going to do before the game, AND what they're going to do before the game, and then it happens, and then people act surprised.

[Andres]

Never really got into this game and my early death made me lose interest.

Kudos to Seamus, GH and 'khaan for hosting :bow:

Congrats to the victors :bow:

My only foes were the commies, apart from that, I could work with whoever was willing to serve my interests best.

A few questions:

1) who was the "scientist" I was after?
2) Who killed me?
3) Why did I get killed? Except for the commies, nobody had a reason to kill me. After all, since I owed no allegiances and only needed to help those who served my personal interests the best, my services were pretty much for sale.

[Visor]

You wanted TLD dead.

[Askthepizzaguy]

1) who was the "scientist" I was after?
2) Who killed me?
3) Why did I get killed? Except for the commies, nobody had a reason to kill me. After all, since I owed no allegiances and only needed to help those who served my personal interests the best, my services were pretty much for sale.

1) Scientist was the communist Oh!TheLastDays who was one of the 14 surviving roles.
2) The Pentangeli killed you.


What Andres failed to take into account was the fact that, his attackers *not* being classy, they had no such reservations about causing a scene. Andres slumped onto the floor, dead before he could pass judgment about the calling card his killers left at the scene: a King of Hearts.

This was right after I met you and found out you were some special secret role I knew not what. I was not allied or working with them.

3) They could have targeted you if they thought you were a Stracchi Made or wiseguy.... other than that, not a darned clue. Maybe they thought you were working for me and becoming a Made. Which would have been very convenient timing because I think you worked with me once or twice at most.

[Captain Blackadder]

I am curious who did kill me night one?

[Andres]

1) Scientist was the communist Oh!TheLastDays who was one of the 14 surviving roles.


I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE by causing his death in 10 games in a row, he being on the same side as me in those 10 games, and then I'll let him live in the 11th game where his goal will be destroying me.

[LazyMcCrow]

And then LazyMcCrow comes along and stabs you to death and all of a sudden you're the dead leader of a communist cult that I'm aware of completely who also doesn't trust me and stops communicating with me for the most part.... It just didn't work out too well for you guys after that.


We can't change what happened in this game, this is more a lesson re-re-re-learned; blabbing it all to Pizza is a recipe for boredom or disaster or both.

:) heh. I'd do it again in a New Jersey minute if I still thought you were the lawyer, Visorslash :D
EOG comments to follow in the next 24 hours or so - hellish busy at work.

[Renata]

Bah, Pizza, by the time I revealed to you you were already bragging about knowing all the Cuneo and Stracchis -- if I hadn't revealed we'd have gone the way of the Barzinis. Of everything in this game that's one decision I don't regret.

[Sigurd]

:sneaky:

I wanted to see how far Pizzaman would be allowed his rampage... It seems all the way was the correct answer.
Good job PizzaMAN.

And I like the post count on this game :beam:

[TinCow]

In re: the argument about game balance. All I know is my own perspective. I was given a straight townie role and was essentially locked into that alignment from the start. For someone like me, who was straight townie, this game was not fun. I stopped reading and posting because it was just not enjoyable to do so, which is something I've never done before. You can argue all you want over the cause of this, but the fact remains I didn't enjoy it as a player. Personally, I think this game was way too large and the size was a really negative factor. I know the Capo motto is the bigger the better, but I think this one was way too large.

As for the Shyster, that role is a crime. As much fun as back room dealings are, the meat and potatoes of mafia is the game thread and public debates to lynch people and avoid getting lynched. The shyster makes the day phase pointless and kills debate. Without lynchings, it's not really a mafia game. It also makes continuing play as a dead townie totally pointless, as a dead townie's only ability is to influence lynchings.

[classical_hero]

If ATPG did not get in contact with the Shyster, the role would not have had a great impact it had, He had to know the night before, before stopping the lynch. That is hard to predict, but once we got to know the lawyer, we used it to our advantage, in the lynch that saved fyremarble, that was planned by me and Diana Abnoda before we put it in plan got the other families to start it and make the town think we were enemies against each other. The thing is that we never got to use the second ability. Also ATPG deliberately got himself into the lynch position, since he knew he could be saved. I am sure that otherwise he would not have put himself up for the count. I don't believe that the lynch is always sacred, since you should be able have some roles that make things different. But ATPG had so much info by that time that it was his game to lose, since nearly everyone gave him info for him to use. I was willing to give him my info so we could be together in victory. The Shyster could have easily been a non event in this game.

When i became the Strachhi's Consigliere, I did not get a fancy PM, just stating that I could perform more investigations at night, 4 if i wanted to, but I never got to use that, or a 2/6 chance of surviving an attack on myself, which I did get to use.

[TinCow]

The Shyster could have easily been a non event in this game.

I really don't understand the "it could have happened different" argument. It didn't occur any other way, it occurred in such a way that lynching was removed as an option for the town. It's a similar scenario to one of the issues that which made the first Star Wars game so frustrating (endless Force Breath survival). The role did exactly what it was intended to do, and that is the problem. Saying that the role might have done something else in a different scenario seems rather pointless since that's not what happened. The role was played, very skillfully, to its full potential and was perfectly utilized by ATPG and whoever else was involved. They used the Shyster powers to their maximum benefit, and that's the problem. That role, when played and used properly, is essentially game breaking.

[sturmhauke]

Saying how you might modify the shyster role for future use is missing the point. As written for this game, it had an obscure yet game-breaking flaw. Pizza realized this flaw and was able to put it to devastating effect. I'm not faulting you Pizza, you only used the tools at hand. But that tool should never have existed in the form it did.

As for the idea that the town defeated itself, I think that's true in general - I've said multiple times now that my Townie Defense Squad never had many recruits, never had any offensive power whatsoever (unless I wanted to take docs off protection duty and use them in vig squads), and was infiltrated from the beginning. However, I also think Pizza is vastly underestimating how much the demoralizing effect of his Evil Overlord shtick, enhanced by his two lynch dodges, prevented the true townies from mounting an effective campaign. When I first tried to rally the town, several people told me that they didn't trust me, that they thought I was still Pizza's lackey and only pretending to lead the town so that I could help destroy them. Most suspicious of all was Stranger, who was already a rogue detective and would have been a valuable ally. Over time I did manage to convince a few people, even Stranger, but I lost more people than I gained and so we were screwed.

Oh, and then there was the matter of Seon, who had posed as my personal "pocket doctor" but who had been working very closely with Pizza since before the game. He decided he wasn't going to be able to win with Mafia like he really wanted, but rather than give me his claimed network of doctors who didn't trust me, he strongarmed me into doing things his way by threatening to give up my network to the mafia. He flat out told me who they all were, and I never told him more than a couple of names for protection duty, so I figured he wasn't bluffing. I was already frustrated by my lack of progress, so that was when I handed over the command. I don't think I knew who the shyster was until after I was dead, and even then I wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. I did advocate for hitting other gangsters, and even protecting one family and playing them against another, but that didn't go anywhere.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Bah, Pizza, by the time I revealed to you you were already bragging about knowing all the Cuneo and Stracchis -- if I hadn't revealed we'd have gone the way of the Barzinis. Of everything in this game that's one decision I don't regret.

Oh Renata I already knew something was up with you. You were acting terrified.

You obviously had a powerful role and you scanned criminal. This is why I hate true investigators and I'm glad they're dead.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The shyster makes the day phase pointless and kills debate. Without lynchings, it's not really a mafia game. It also makes continuing play as a dead townie totally pointless, as a dead townie's only ability is to influence lynchings.

True enough... I guess I'm still wondering why there wasn't a very public and very desperate campaign by the anti-pizza people to find out the identity of the shyster, and why the anti-pizza gangsters didn't give them the name. That should have happened, and I was expecting that, and I was expecting to die a horrible death in a very satisfying lynch led by a combination of townies and mafia who were sick of me, me, me having control.

When that didn't happen I just left Dave undefended and crossed my fingers.

I didn't expect to survive this game, I just wanted to have my laughs and go out in the largest blaze of glory ever for a gangster. I didn't expect people would actually give up. Especially this group, especially when I was trying so hard to be the villain EVERYONE wanted dead. It was a crime that people gave up on killing me, that was the crime. And the shyster couldn't have stopped it if there was a continued, concerted campaign to find out his identity and stop him via the lynch, the nightkill, or the roleblock.

I still maintain that this failure was a choice the town made, when they had far better options. It's too easy to pin it on the shyster role. As awful as the role may be, it is still one role that can be stopped or killed. I find some of this to be excuses, I don't mean to be blunt.

[Renata]

Oh Renata I already knew something was up with you. You were acting terrified.

You obviously had a powerful role and you scanned criminal. This is why I hate true investigators and I'm glad they're dead.

Yeah. :/

I'd almost forgotten all of that early-game anxiety. It's been so long. At one point I was giving Seamus a hard time for making it so hard to pass as non-mafia.

[gibsonsg91921]

Moros, sorry Scotty and I killed you. You were my only kill all game. I remember being quite giddy when I saw in the QTs that ATPG was mad Moros got killed because I didn't trust him until Renata thoroughly vouched for him.

[DaveShack]

Just a quick comment to clear up a misconception. Though it doesn't make a significant difference from the balance point of view...

The Dons had knowledge of the Shyster, and a codeword to identify themselves with. The Shyster didn't know anyone at the start. Even when I started receiving lists of people who were supposedly allies, I had no idea if those lists were accurate.

[Chaotix]

:shrug:

It's my opinion that the town never really stood a chance in this game. Forget the shyster; there were simply too many people who wanted to be mafia this time around, something like almost 50 percent. Even then that's way more than necessary to crush the town.

ATPG's three families combined amounted to about 30 people. Add 3-5 each for the Tataglia and Barzini, then 5 for the Pentangeli, and various Wise Guys who got killed before making it to Made like they intended. You've got somewhere around 50 gangsters in a game with 120 players total, and the major families agreed to leave each other alone till the town were gone. That's overkill; man for man mafia are just more powerful than townies, period. No sense in blaming this one on the shyster, and there's no sense in blaming it on ATPG, either, because the majority of those 50 gangsters were shooting for mafia before he got to them, and choosing the strategic mafia alliance was the smart thing to do anyway for the Dons, regardless of whether ATPG helped them. And in the fact that ATPG could have been taken out with a little smoke and mirrors and coordinated rebellion; Niklas and I very nearly achieved that ourselves, just two rounds before he won the game.

So, yeah. Reason for town's loss was not the shyster. It was that not enough people wanted to be town.

[GamezRule]

I think Fryemarble is possibly the biggest reason Pizza won. :P

Also, I revealed the Shyster to the Corleone, with secret hopes that some idiot would blab it to the town.

[Diana Abnoba]

Congrats to the rest of the Clemenza family for our win :2thumbsup: and esp. to Pizza (you manipulating bastard :laugh4:) for becoming Capo di Tutti Capi. :bow:

Thanks to Seamus, GeneralHankerchief, and issaikhaan for hosting such an enormous game. :bow:



Yeah, it seemed like town really didn't have a chance this go round in Capo, because most of the town wanted to go mafia. I for one decided before the game started that I was going mafia. I went town all the way last Capo, died 2/3 way through and didn't have half the fun as this time. Being bad IS so much more fun!
Then as soon as this game started, got my townie role, and thought this is going to be a long road to a mafia Made gangster. But still was heading there, come he** or high water. At least I didn't get a cop role or something else pro-town.
Then RL hit me like a ton of bricks. Distracted me a lot from this game, but also helped distract me from all my RL issues later into this game. If not so distracted maybe I would have had better timing, and some of the backstage plans I had may have worked out better. I have fun and learned a lot in this game. Thanks to all. :bow:

[Xehh II]

Shot to the hosts, you guys did a pretty amazing job of keeping things together

[Askthepizzaguy]

:shrug:

It's my opinion that the town never really stood a chance in this game. Forget the shyster; there were simply too many people who wanted to be mafia this time around, something like almost 50 percent. Even then that's way more than necessary to crush the town.

ATPG's three families combined amounted to about 30 people. Add 3-5 each for the Tataglia and Barzini, then 5 for the Pentangeli, and various Wise Guys who got killed before making it to Made like they intended. You've got somewhere around 50 gangsters in a game with 120 players total, and the major families agreed to leave each other alone till the town were gone. That's overkill; man for man mafia are just more powerful than townies, period. No sense in blaming this one on the shyster, and there's no sense in blaming it on ATPG, either, because the majority of those 50 gangsters were shooting for mafia before he got to them, and choosing the strategic mafia alliance was the smart thing to do anyway for the Dons, regardless of whether ATPG helped them. And in the fact that ATPG could have been taken out with a little smoke and mirrors and coordinated rebellion; Niklas and I very nearly achieved that ourselves, just two rounds before he won the game.

So, yeah. Reason for town's loss was not the shyster. It was that not enough people wanted to be town.

Wholeheartedly agree, it's basically my main argument.

No matter what powers the town or mafia had, if most of the townies decided to be mafia, then regardless of whether or not most of them actually became mafia, town chose it's fate, and that fate was a town loss.

As early as round 5 or 6 I knew that folks like Tincow and Psychonaut were stuck with incorruptible townie roles with no offensive or defensive powers, scanning purposelessly, to give their data to nobody, because nobody cared.

What I felt was a crying shame was that the incorruptibles got so little support. If most of the town goes mafia, they can do nothing and their experience in the game is boring and pointless. Last Capo, there were oodles of incorruptible townies. That is what helped many folks decide to stay townie, because they knew some folks would always be townie.

Given a dozen or so incorruptible starting townie roles, more mafia starting roles than that, and everyone else being corruptible, this game was a mafia victory from the design alone. That there were a bloc of surgeons remaining at the end capable of possibly outfoxing or outvoting the remaining family is interesting. I mainly created them and kept them around as leverage; if there was a concerted attempt to attack the allied mafia, you'd still have to take out the town and they were very difficult to kill, those last dozen or so. Essentially you needed the Stracchi/Cunio around to help remove the doctors.

One of the strategies I used in this game was making several factions powerful for the purpose of keeping people divided, not just making doctors and rogues, but putting people in separate but nearly equal mafia families. Because of this, no individual faction was powerful enough to dominate, and I was able to pull strings to adjust anyone's level of power and maintain some control over every group.

I don't think anyone has ever attempted a strategy like that before in a game. I have been in a whole lot of games and I can't think of a single one. I don't think it was possible in most games and of the few that were like capo, nothing like this happened that I can recall.

[LazyMcCrow]

Firstly I'd like to thank the hosts of this epic undertaking; for their diligence and commitment - Seamus, GH and issaikhan - amazing effort. and thanks to all the players who made this game happen - especially those of whom injected it with fun :2thumbsup:

Secondly, I'd like to clear one thing up: This game wasn't 'Mafia'! - that's right, for any of you who, like me, were in any doubt. we didn't just play a huge game of mafia (the largest ever on this site I believe: 'grats!).
No! what we just played was not mafia, but apparently something called 'Capo' - and the fact that I was playing something very different to my brief experience of playing face-to-face mafia (werewolves at a friends' family party) became evident very quickly.

I've skated through the end of game analysis posted above and there is alot of interesting discussion on mechanics etc. particularly interesting to me are notes on the lynch and how the 'Shyster' role affected that. I'd like to side-step any meaningful discussion on the notion of balance by re-iterating: This wasn't a game of 'Mafia'!

Plain and simple, this game involved way to many additional skills, roles and - most importantly - opportunities for character progression for it to be considered a game of mafia. It was an epic role-playing game and it featured some awesome creativity on the part of many of those who contributed.

I imagine that the excellent role I landed actually made this game more like traditional 'mafia' for me than for many players, in that my Serial Killer-ness alienated me from pretty much all other roles in the game and made my fears about my identity being uncovered very real - while the rest of 'town' were wrestling to get to the front of the queue for the tommy guns.

I'd like to briefly highlight some of my experiences of the game, but I should start by saying that the final write-up by General Hankerchief gives a good indication of the level of (in-character) regret I feel about performance in my role (the lack of a bloody tide of corpses left in my wake etc.)


Killing... killing was fun. Killing was good. Killing was healthy. Killing was a natural part of life. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. He was refertilizing the earth. What was a meager human life when all of Mother Nature benefited?

This was one of LazyMcCrow's many justifications for murder. They changed from night to night, week to week. Sometimes he didn't even need one. Rationing really didn't matter. Killing did. Killing was enough. And yet...

Now there was to be no more killing. He had been able to do it easily enough under the watchful eye of the Fatlington Police Department, that was true. But now the FPD was no longer in charge. And the only people left to kill were the ring of doctors, who would all save each other, and the Clemenza faction, who would immediately enact terrible retribution on him. That was no fun.

Surely, there was no work left to be done in Fatlington. It had exhausted its potential. With this in mind, Lazy went back over his body of work during the brief time in the Shore town. A kill here and there. A ton of work done with the various mafia factions, but there was no fun in that. He never got to use his red knife, never really got to savor any of the kills. Those didn't count.

Ignoring the number of mafia-related kills, Lazy went back over the totals. The number was depressingly low. The Committee of Vigilance started out numbering 117. That was a lot of prime targets. It had been active for three full weeks, quite a long time. And yet Lazy had only managed to drop three or four of that 117 during those three weeks. So depressing, really. There was such promise. Fatlington was every serial killer's dream. And he had only managed to take out three or four people. Hell, other serial killers sometimes killed that many people in that period of time under normal conditions.

And now the window of opportunity had closed. Lazy would drive off in the morning, looking for a place to hunt. He still lived, but he knew that he would never get a better chance to practice his craft than the one he had just squandered. He hoped the continued killing would drown out his brain's regrets in the future, but he wasn't so sure.


What the write up above fails to deliver is the very real sense of satisfaction I got from surviving the game to the end, but mainly the satisfaction I got from keeping my identity secret for so long. I was however helped by some failure to link my SK attempts to the theme, for one of the kills. That was down to my failure in understanding the role and the yawning admin cracks that happen in a game this large . (That is no criticism of any of the hosts:- There would have been a hundred times more errors if I was hosting - I would never have even got this bird off the ground!) I did tender my resignation at that point, but I really don't think it made much difference in the long run - Ironside eventually identified me and Pizza consequentally found out that his Sith underling had an agenda of his own.


N1 - 'Protected' Xenoneb

N2 - Killed Warman With visorslash ; sturmhauke; guiri; issaikhaan & Diana Abnoba - SUCCESS

N3 Attacked Ameranth with Secura; Diana Abnoba; Visorslash; sturmhauke; Guiri - FAILED

N4 Attacked ATPG with Jarema ; Xehh II ; Winston Hughes ; Raskolnikov ; Lord Winter - FAILED

N5 Secura ; attacking Edse with ULC ; issaikhaan ; robbiecon ; Riedquat; - FAILED

N6 Attack Nictel. With Guiri ; Niklas ; Autolycus ; robbiecon; Ibn-Khaldun; - SUCCESS

N7 Serial Kill Visorslash (knife and gun) - SUCCESS

N8 attack robbiecon With Ironside ; The Stranger ; ULC ; Sigurd ; DaveShack- FAILED

N9 Attack Khazaar with Sigurd ; Niklas ; shlin28 ; White_eyes:D; Yaropolk ; qlyphz; FAILED

N10 Attack TheFluffyOne Tiaexz & Diana Abnoba ; I shall attack, (maim, destroy, vacuum-pack and auction the fluorescent remains of): SUCCESS

N11 Kill Lewwyn with Jarema and Johhog FAILED

N12 Attack Chaotix with Diana Abnoba+Tiaexz FAILED

N13 attack Secura With Jarema + Xehh II FAILED

N14 attack Scienter. Jarema + Xehh II - SUCCESS

N15 Serial Kill Kennigit FAILED

N16 attack Death Is Yonder. with Xeh II and Jarema, FAILED

N17 serial kill Winston Hughes (Gun) SUCCESS

N18 attack Kennigit with Autolycus, SUCCESS

N19 Serial Kill Tiaexz SUCCESS

N20 Serial Kill Death Is Yonder FAILED

N21 I will attack Autolycus with hero di classico as sanctioned by Don Clemenza. FAILED

N22 Kicked back and chillaxed FTW - (the fact that I did NOT attempt an SK on Niklas at this point was due to a lack of permission by ATPG. I was as ready for the EOG at this point as - I imagine - everyone else. A kill would have bumped up my VC one notch, but as I said, I was playing to survive)

I realise I could have done more to attempt to steer the Pizza Juggernaut off the road and over the cliff - when I killed Visorslash, it was as an actual attempt to kill my best guess as to who was 'The Lawyer'* - but I think it is fairly clear that I could not have done so without it being a suicidal act. If anyone had voted for me to be lynched at any point in the game, it would have changed my game immensely...but no-one ever did, and so I hid behind the mask of a hapless townie - desperately trying to join the winning team and picked my moments when I could. There were plenty of times early on where I targeted all sorts of people, only to rescind my SK orders at the last minute in an effort to blend in.

* Whether the 'Shyster' role is OP or not is moot - this isn't mafia remember?. In this game it felt like the only way to derail a sure-fire win for the Pizza Network was to do away with his Lynch-proofing. To reiterate: I had no actual desire to ruin the game for Pizza, and no special reason to prevent him from winning - (as he went to great pains to point out at the end, and as I was already happy about - our winning conditions were not mutually exclusive.) I just wanted to make at least one attempt to add some spice in the game and bring it away from what seemed like a foregone conclusion.

I had no idea how long this game would last. No idea how many nights I had to make my kills and no idea how best to play. Killing Winston was an attempt to bring the balance of power (real or insinuated) from the Corleone. Killing Tiaexz was a last ditch attempt to keep the game going long enough to justify my role as a Serial Killer. Here's the role PM for those of you who were interested (sorry bout lack of formatting - doing this on the fly)

Role: Serial Killer

Alignment: Individualist

Summary: You are, more or less, the worst nightmare of any sane society. You are calm and rational, polite, even kind to children and strangers. You just have this one little quirk – you revel in the opportunity to kill people.
You’ve been laying low since your escape from a secure (not secure enough to stop you!) FBI holding facility. Of course you moved to Fatlington – it’s reputation makes it practically a SK magnet – and established your false identity there. However, this crisis might give you the opportunity to take up your hobby once again. After all, at least some of the inevitable killings that are coming up should be accomplished with a little style – and you intend to provide it.

Victory Conditions: See below:

Decisive Victory = You kill all other players and leave Fatlington a ghost-town.
Clear Victory = You kill 7 or more players as an SK.
Close Victory = You kill 4-6 players as an SK.
Draw = You kill 2-3 players as an SK.
Close Defeat = You kill only 1 player as an SK.
Clear Defeat = You kill nobody as an SK.
Crushing Defeat = You kill nobody as an SK and nobody in your cover role.
- Personal survival improves your level of victory by one

Abilities:

Daytime:

1. You may vote to lynch or select as can any other player.

Nightime:

Active Actions: You will have the abilities of your cover role, and:

1. In combination with 2 other townies, you can form a protection group (3 required) and attempt to protect one other player. If no attack occurs, nothing happens. If the target is attacked your group will save her/him and receive credit for the save. More than 3 townies can work in the same group (limit 5), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you are the only one who attempts a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have a 1 in 6 chance of being revealed by name in that failed attempt.

2. In combination with 4 other townies, you can form a vigilante group (5 required) and attempt to kill one other player. More than 5 townies can work in the same group (limit 7), though this does not provide any other benefit aside from participation credit. If fewer than 5 townies participate in a kill effort, that effort automatically fails. If only 2 townies participate in a save effort and the target is attacked, that effort automatically fails. If you are the only one who attempts a save and the target is attacked, that effort fails and you have a 1 in 6 chance of being revealed by name in that failed attempt.

3. Once per night, starting on the night AFTER a murder has been committed (in effect, N2 or later) you may choose to kill one other player. You serial killer kills MUST have a theme. This theme can be a symbol or calling card, a specific type of attack…whatever you wish. Given your role, the host suggests something gruesome or macabre, but that will be up to you (previous SKs have had a lot of fun with this).

4. You rarely feel compelled to kill – mostly it is a labor of love – but you have your limits. On any day that players vote for you to be lynched, you must attempt to kill the person who first voted to lynch you during the subsequent night phase. If the attempt fails, you need not repeat it.

Passive Actions: You have none, unless specified by the secret abilities and traits PM.

Secret Abilities/Traits:

Special Trait: Spoofer

You have always enjoyed playing natural jokes, and some of those skills let you make all sorts of things appear to be “different,” at least for a little while. You can actually cause a selected player to display the status of your choice “guilty, unclear, criminal, innocent; susceptible, possibly susceptible, probably unsusceptible, or completely unsusceptible. They will display this status to any investigator on the night you choose – even if it is the wrong result for their style of investigation. You can do nothing to camouflage roles. You may do this twice.

Regarding Investigations

1. If investigated by a made or detective, your status is likely to be “unclear,” a not-uncommon answer for townies. Most detectives and Mades will have greater difficulty uncovering your role than they would that of a normal townie (for example, standard is 1 in 216; yours 1 in 1080). As with all investigations, their chance to penetrate your role will be increased with repeated investigations.

Role Changing: You may not change roles, though your cover role may progress as usual.


Serial Killer? - well I guess there is mixed opinion about whether I made a good Serial Killer or not, but it was a great game to play and a great introduction to the .org.

Lastly, I'd like to thank my Dark Sith Master, Askthepizzaguy. For the great write-ups, for extending lines of communication to a n00b and ultimately, for putting in the sort of effort required to win a game like this.

A game like 'Capo' (not mafia ;P)

GG ALL

:bow:
Lazy

[Krill]

Damn you Lazy, I was going to post that...I think you're right, this wasn't a mafia game.


That's overkill; man for man mafia are just more powerful than townies, period.

This I'm not so sure on. Townies get Doctors, who can 1 man protect and then Surgeons who can one man protect and kill, and then Rogue detectives who can 1 man kill after scanning, or do wiseguy hits and scan at the same time so theoretically 3 rogues could kill 4 people every 2 nights. Compared to this, the mafia had Mades that did 3 man protects or 2 man kills: The town actually had the stronger promoted people. I don't think that given equal organizational abilities that the Town is weak at night compared to the mafia, and as in the day the Town had the numbers to lynch whomever, the only thing holding back the Town was the organizational effort.

For example, if a Townie had done just what ATPG did and offer to organize everyone but after a given point decided to help out the town instead of go Mafia, then the townies would have been able to kill during the day with the lynch and protect the organizer at night with less people needed for protections after starting from a greater player base, and still be able to kill at night with the humongous amounts of players they had. What could the mafia do to survive that, when they needed more people to do anything at all at night and had no control in the day? In that respect the Shyster role was an important role to stop the mafia from getting completely crushed by alleviating pressure in the day, but he wouldn't do anything to protect at night, and in fact would needed 3 Mades just to protect him at night from attacks.

I think I have to agree that the Town lost when so many people decided to go Mafia, because to do that they had to get kills and that just meant the town got overwhelmed before they got 25 odd doctors up and a bunch of rogues to do night kills with.

And something for you all to think about. The game had 118 players, the lynch killed 21 people. 5 got Wogged, and 14 people survived. That means 78 people got killed by night actions that were the result of players deciding how they wanted to play the game. The lynch was by no means the primary control method of removing people from the game, and didn't even need to be in the game for it to function.

Also, Woot, I killed more people than the SK :)

[Seon]

To be fair, sturm, I was still working for pizzaguy when I came for you. The entire thing was a set up to have further control over the town network.

Unfortunately the townies all went off to be Mafiosi and the 3/5th of the remaining doctors were loyal to pizza in the first place. The rogues were, well, being rogues.

I gave DiY the hit list of the Cunnio without ATPG approval though. Why not? ATPG said that he was trying to get 5 saves in for everyone. Not protecting someone who's going to get hit on was illogical. Besides, DiY was a more than useful person.

And then I tried to get the Corleone to kill the unprotected Stracchi. I chose the Corlone because they were anti-pizza and, well, it would make things interesting. It failed because Renata was paranoid and she wanted to kill me instead.

Then the rogues went rogue and pizza killed them and I went paranoid.

[LazyMcCrow]

anti-pizza? or simply antipasti?

[TinCow]

The 'this wasn't mafia' comments are interesting, and I think you have a point there. If there's a problem, perhaps it is that the game is still too rooted in mafia to completely distance itself from mafia. Capo could, perhaps, bloom further if it were to simply abandon all pretense of being a mafia game and shed some of the stuff that makes the game so problematic. Instead of making it a competition between town and mafia, it might be best to simply embrace the 'claw your way to the top' concept inherent in the name of the game. No town roles, everyone is mafia, some with starting affiliations, some as freelancers, all wanting to be the winning Capo or part of that Capo's group. Give some neutral time for initial negotiations, scheming, and alliances to be established, then get with the killing and may the best player win.

[LazyMcCrow]

The 'this wasn't mafia' comments are interesting, and I think you have a point there. If there's a problem, perhaps it is that the game is still too rooted in mafia to completely distance itself from mafia. Capo could, perhaps, bloom further if it were to simply abandon all pretense of being a mafia game and shed some of the stuff that makes the game so problematic. Instead of making it a competition between town and mafia, it might be best to simply embrace the 'claw your way to the top' concept inherent in the name of the game. No town roles, everyone is mafia, some with starting affiliations, some as freelancers, all wanting to be the winning Capo or part of that Capo's group. Give some neutral time for initial negotiations, scheming, and alliances to be established, then get with the killing and may the best player win.

Kind of like this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?139288-Blood-Moon) then?

[BSmith]

This was my first game here at the org (Thanks to Pizza for the invite) and naturally my first Capo game.

I’ll admit that I was somewhat overwhelmed at first, especially with keeping up with the game thread. I started typical townie and didn’t really have a goal, so just went with the flow. Admittedly this hampered my ability to progress in a timely fashion.

RL also hit me hard. My grandmother passed away in October right in the middle of a cross-country move (selling/buying houses, moving trucks, getting daycare/school set up for my kids, etc.). I came quite close to quitting as I wasn’t able to follow the game and didn’t have much time to commit.

I stuck around though, and ultimately became part of the Pizza resistance. I figured at that point I had nothing to lose, so why the heck not. To be clear I made this decision before I learned that Pizza was going to betray me. We thought that the hit on me was called off, but that didn’t end up being the case. If I had lived, it would have been one more vote against Pizza (or if my target that night – Autolycus – wasn’t lucky) and we would have lynched him, once and for all.

After my death I tried to play the wounded devoted-yet-betrayed follower in hopes of finally convincing the remaining living players with a voice to vote to lynch ATPG. I naturally came across as hurt, but that was part of the ploy. There are no hard feelings here. :bow:

I am glad to have played a part of the last Hail Mary, even if we fell just a little short. In all I consider it a personal success to have lived 18 days in this massive game.

[sturmhauke]

Looking back, I wonder if I might have been more successful in the anti-Pizza movement if I had bit my tongue and stayed with his planned "Vode's Hand" rogue group, and gotten more inside information.

[Renata]

You wanna play my game on Giraffe, sturm?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Looking back, I wonder if I might have been more successful in the anti-Pizza movement if I had bit my tongue and stayed with his planned "Vode's Hand" rogue group, and gotten more inside information.

Oh hell yeah. You don't tell the main villain that you're going to betray him. You infiltrate him, become his best friend, gain all his information, and use it against him in one crippling blow of blood, tears, and wailing and gnashing of teeth and screeching with the pain and the killing and the bleeding and the screaming and the hey hey hey it hurts me.

THAT IS HOW YOU PLAY A TOWNIE IN CAPO. You do not act like a townie. You act like a scumbag, and then kill the scumbags you were playing nice with.

Lies are a townie's best friend. The mafia use them, so should you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

After my death I tried to play the wounded devoted-yet-betrayed follower in hopes of finally convincing the remaining living players with a voice to vote to lynch ATPG. I naturally came across as hurt, but that was part of the ploy. There are no hard feelings here. :bow:

You irredeemable BSmith.

I knew killing you folks was a good move. My paranoia was completely correct except against Chaotix maybe. Die all you backstabbers, DIE!

He who backstabs last, backstabs least.

[Nightbringer]

Oh hell yeah. You don't tell the main villain that you're going to betray him. You infiltrate him, become his best friend, gain all his information, and use it against him in one crippling blow of blood, tears, and wailing and gnashing of teeth and screeching with the pain and the killing and the bleeding and the screaming and the hey hey hey it hurts me.

THAT IS HOW YOU PLAY A TOWNIE IN CAPO. You do not act like a townie. You act like a scumbag, and then kill the scumbags you were playing nice with.

Lies are a townie's best friend. The mafia use them, so should you.

I thought about doing that, voting against you on the final day. If I had really wanted to, and with all the other doctors together, we could have out voted you and might have had a chance to keep each-other alive at night.
But I had my win, without risk, and that would have been quite risky.

[sturmhauke]

You wanna play my game on Giraffe, sturm?

Sure, why not? I'm currently freezing my :daisy: off in Idaho, not much else to do up here. I'll head over there.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I thought about doing that, voting against you on the final day. If I had really wanted to, and with all the other doctors together, we could have out voted you and might have had a chance to keep each-other alive at night.

Well sir, I would have died, that's true. But the Clemenza, with Chaotix and Renata and Niklas, still would have outvoted you, and any of your doctor friends would have been the next lynch.

Remember we didn't need to attack anymore, and we did so just so you could get your protects.

That said, it sure would have shut me up and made you look like a boss. Die in a blaze of glory....

You preferred winning. Nothing wrong with that.

[Nightbringer]

Would you have had the majority if both seon and I had switched over on the day we voted off DiY?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Would you have had the majority if both seon and I had switched over on the day we voted off DiY?

Afraid I don't follow you. DIY is still alive.

[Krill]

The 'this wasn't mafia' comments are interesting, and I think you have a point there. If there's a problem, perhaps it is that the game is still too rooted in mafia to completely distance itself from mafia. Capo could, perhaps, bloom further if it were to simply abandon all pretense of being a mafia game and shed some of the stuff that makes the game so problematic. Instead of making it a competition between town and mafia, it might be best to simply embrace the 'claw your way to the top' concept inherent in the name of the game. No town roles, everyone is mafia, some with starting affiliations, some as freelancers, all wanting to be the winning Capo or part of that Capo's group. Give some neutral time for initial negotiations, scheming, and alliances to be established, then get with the killing and may the best player win.

Pretty much. Though there are nuances that make the town different that does affect the game (lack of ability to become capo whilst townie). Capo IV was balanced a pin head, to the extent that it was the players that "unbalanced" the game. I think I'll play Capo V, whenever that starts (and god please don't start anytime soon)...

[classical_hero]

I think this will be the last Capo ever.

[Krill]

Wouldn't surprise me.

[Choxorn]

EDIT: Wrong Thread.

[Nightbringer]

Afraid I don't follow you. DIY is still alive.

erm, I meant Renata. Not DiY

[Jarema]

I think this will be the last Capo ever.

It was my first Capo game. I would be sad, if it would be the last one.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have been waiting to release my Big New Yorker (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?128929-The-Big-New-Yorker-(TBNY)-concept-thread) game for some time now.

If you would like a Capo-like game, in terms of size and abilities for all, this is the one you wish to join. It will have my own take on things, and I'll avoid some of the things we learned about design elements that are overpowered in capo III and IV.

I'll also be hosting, not playing, so maybe you'll have a game where I'm not at the head of some network, at long last.

Even if Seamus or whoever else doesn't host a Capo game again, the tradition will live on in some form. I'll see to that.

[God Emperor]

Thanks for hosting :)

special thanks for playing to: Renata, Winston, Niklas :) .. ATPG, BL, DiY, DE and Scottishranger

[Askthepizzaguy]

The way I understood is that town lost because too many people couldn't resist the Dark Side. Why was the Shyster not killed or lynched?

Not killed: Mainly because I was sending suggestions to the three allied mafia families, Corleone, Cuneo, and Stracchi, to kill certain people, and also simultaneously directing the pro-town vigilante forces.

Which were simply trying to become wiseguys and didn't care who they killed. Of the few remaining murders out there, they just didn't get lucky.

I did protect him at times but I wanted to avoid having a protector on him, because that draws attention to him. I didn't really trust too many people to protect him and so eventually, I protected him with no one. That way, everyone would assume someone else was covering him, therefore his protection was airtight.

Not lynched: Only the mafia Dons knew who he was [one of them leaking the name to myself] and in-thread, he wasn't acting particularly scummy.

So, luck there as well as intent.


Surely, if enough people would play town, they would be able to penetrate through defenses.

Sure, I had myself and the Shyster protected by pure townies at various times, that protection could have been removed. He also couldn't protect himself from the lynch so he was a sitting duck if a plurality voted for him.


And weren't you elected Director time after time, meaning you didn't need protection at night so that all protection could be used on the Shyster. Or was the Shyster elected Director?

Once I became Director I generally didn't protect DaveShack, because it was assumed he'd be protected, so I used that protection on others.

Dave never became Director.


Anyway, the unbeatable team consisted of Pizza, the Shyster and some henchmen, right? If everybody would have turned against the all too powerful getting Pizza and his Shyster, you wouldn't have won.

Yes, but I forged an alliance with mafia, neutrals, even pure townies, and eventually had the vote controlled outright, and was personally invulnerable day and night.

That said, you're correct that such an allegiance was voluntary.


Jeez, in a game with 100+ players, it should be perfectly possible to take out two players, no matter how powerful their roles are. All that was needed was combining forces against you.

I played in such a way that discouraged that as much as possible. Some folks realized a little too late that they shouldn't have allied with me.

I agree with what you're saying, but the folks on the other side are arguing that the shyster role took away the town's ability to lynch me, even temporarily, and it hurt their enjoyment of the game and their morale in fighting me.

I disagree with the morale aspect being game-breaking.... town morale is often a problem, even in vanilla games, when they keep lynching the wrong people. But hurting their enjoyment of the game, I understand that.

I can also see how it presented a challenge that some felt was impossible, or made the game too easy for some and too hard for others. I don't fully agree but I agree that the role itself is very, very powerful. Or can be if used properly.

Actually, if I hadn't been in contact with Dave, most people wouldn't have even known the role existed, and it probably would have died unceremoniously at some point having stopped no lynches. The Dons weren't particularly active in contacting him.

[Sigurd]

And the last post goes to....