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I think Amy/Kage/Boq fit. I don't know why one of those names with Taffy could not be a team. I'm pretty sure that Taffy was as at a similar level to Dya until EoD, as far as posting.
How do we fit?
it's not weird that you did it, it's with hindsight that it looks bad for you. Fortunately I'm currently leaning "looks bad enough to be good" as while you're an incredible player I have never seen you be that level of brazen with partners and given that when you'd written that Amy was being voted by Kage and Dya wasn't even on the table, really.
You did have Amy/Dya as matched way before Ladd flipped and I follow your logic on how you got there and how you got to the town read.
well the thing is that looking at singular posts without context, then stuff changes tbh. So thats why I wanted to point it out. I agree that the post alone looks bad, at the same time... I have no tmi. Sometimes I will misclear wolves. It happens tbh
I wolf read monty, town read renata, and null read taffy so frankly I'm not that concerned with how they think about whether or not the team could contain all of ladd/amy/dya
do we know how many wolves exist? I guess that's a legit question to be asking. 15 players would indicate somewhere between 3 and 4, probs safe to assume 4 meaning we're looking for 2 more.
I'm kinda here:
town:
hk
boq
ender
renata
unsure:
csargo
poe:
kage
taffy
amy
monty
idk about renata. Her way to push me is very bad, but i am more used to town pushing me like this than scum. Scum normally tries to fake effort cases on me tbh
also what do you think of my reason to unpair Kage with ladd? No one has said anything about it which indicates to me that I am correct and that I am currently robbing scum from a lhf yeet.
like d1 consensus was that logic, vulgard and ender were all wolves
d2 was consensus visor, vulgard, ender.
I am pretty sure ender is town (and iirc people worked against me when I stated my town reads on both vulgard and ender).
Dya tried to make HK viable iirc?
ladd was cheering on my Kage push.
I find it unlikely that wolves in this position starts to push each other
Wolves should be within the people who were fine with the consensus tbh
People who fought the consensus within D1 and D2 are town I think tbh
I could see dya, don't get visor tho. I don't know anything about town dya though, I don't think
Csargo here telling Logic that he disagrees with Logic's vote on Visor, but could see Dya be a wolf.
i have an immediate concern w/ how logic's reentered the thread but i'm gonna sit on it for a bit to see if it's self-correcting
mostly posting this because it's fun to watch logic squirm
I dont think this is a townie post.
The only person I remember trying to defend Logic is Boquise. He didn't do it confidently, but he definitely did try to change the wagon.
i am so cool tbh
Kagemusha
12-14-2022, 18:53
Ok. Lets have a look at the process how Dya was lynched.
Amy (2): Boquise, Vulgard
Kage(1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Renata (1) : Csargo
Dya (1): Ender
1st one to vote is Ender so hardly bussing a partner.
Dya (2): Ender, Vulgard
Taffy (1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
2nd one to vote Vulgard, who is confirmed town.
Taffy (3): Monty, Csargo, Ender
Dya (2): Vulgard, Renata
Monty(1): HK
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
At this point Csargo and Ender move to Taffy, creates a question mark on Csargo. Renata 3rd on Dya which still could be anything.Ender later reveals his play there.
Dya (4): Vulgard, Renata, Taffy, HK
Taffy (3): Monty, Csargo, Ender
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
At this point Taffy and HK move to Dya. Could be self preservation for scum Taffy, but this here shows i was wrong about HK. Would he in any real universe make a deciding push against his mafia partner? Rock solid town move.
Dya (5): Vulgard, Renata, Taffy, HK, Boquise
Taffy (3): Monty, Csargo, Ender
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
Now Boquise joins up to make it 5-3 for Dya. Me thinks still so close that this is a town vote as well.
Dya (6): Vulgard, , Taffy, HK, Boquise, Renata, Ender
Taffy (2): Monty, Csargo
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
Here Ender returns to voting Dya to make sure it sticks.
So conclusions based on this.
Town
Ender, HK
townish
Renata, Taffy, Boque
neutral
Monty, Amy
scummish
Csargo
Based on this im gonna. Vote: Csargo
Nah. I did not try to change the wagon tbh
I am just giving my perspective and I find it more useful to vote elsewhere.
too bad i ruined my own cred tbh
what a wolf smh
Visor (2): Montmo, Logic
HK (2): Taffy, Csargo
Luv2spooge (1): HK
ATPG (1): luv2spooge
Ender (1): ATPG
Logic (5): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Ladd, Visor
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Kage (1): Boquise
EOD in a bit less than 12 hours. (7 PM EST)
light blue means i think they could be town, with various strengths.
so imo as of 12 hours left, we had just town being voted.
Likelihood of that?
I wish I knew how to read ender but I always get him wrong when I try
I also think pizza is firmly in both metas rn. He hasn't done anything I think is strictly villagery or strictly wolfy
Dya not wanting to give reads on both pizza and ender, I think this cements ender town if there was any doubts
How do we fit?
I don't remember anything that would not make Taffy/you possibly a team. That's pretty much it.
I tend to lean Ampharos/Taffy.
just me being simple, but I'm okay with it
I think visor/dya are town currently and logic is just a woof tbh
hm
Why did you think Dya was town here Csargo when you previously stated to Logic that you think Dya could be a wolf? What changed?
why not though? like at some point if you're town and you're convinced that someone else is reading you wolf when they should, by history/experience/whatever, be reading you town or at worst null isn't the logical conclusion "this person isn't pushing me in good faith"?
Like sure you said you've never been "so confident" in someone elses ability to read you but Logic appears to be stating Visor should be able to do that correctly (intimating So Confident) which makes that leap to "visor is a wolf" more of a legit conclusion than what you're arguing.
HK defending Logic from Amy. Giving town reasons to why Logic would act like he did when he re-entered the thread
Should have wrote Visor instead of he, noted. I'll get to running.
super inoffical read:
wolves tend to play along more with townie silliness like correcting grammar and stuff whilst town tend to tell the player to fuck off tbh
hm
Why did you think Dya was town here Csargo when you previously stated to Logic that you think Dya could be a wolf? What changed?
Because if logic was a wolf, then I didn't think dya could be one as well was what I was thinking.
Damn i was hoping to skim logic iso find out he was still being wplfy and peace out for the day but idk about this one friendos
He got a lot villagerier imo
enderwiggin
This was my other early wolfread and i dont have time to catch up
Convo with pizza early on felt like he was trying to back off from the fight in a wolfy way without actually conceding the point iyam
I have seen wolves do it a ton of times when they dont want to get in a fight with specific players
This should also spew Ender town
well shit gamers i kinda also think logic's town now
part of me just wants to shrug and hope ladd's right on ender but that's the part of me that got like 3 hours of sleep
i guess i should try to find an actual self-motivated read
https://media3.giphy.com/media/l0ErxNiK7Llr1hrry/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611ea92319cedb65865ea06b30dade74ffdb7c7aaf7&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g
my gut is telling me to vote boq, which means he's probably town
lmao
Unvote
Logic (3): Amy, Ender, Vulgard
Ender (3): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei
Visor (2): Montmo, Logic
HK (1): Taffy
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Boquise: (1): Visor
Ampharos (1): Boquise
Vulgard(1): luv2spooge
the question is if dya votes ender knowing wolf!ladd and wolf!csargo are already there
3 wolves on the same wagon.
I usually read this as town points for the unflipped player, which is csargo
That Logic is voted by Amy, Ender and Vulgard, only 1 flipping town, makes me draw back towards Amy being a wolf but I guess it could be pure, given that the counter wagon is a town (imo) and the second largest is a confirmed town too.
that wagon also spews Ender town again imo tbh
Nothing to read ladd off and dya meh
Lol
Visor
You were so close to become god here tbh
i wish I could explain why amy's tone is villagery to me in a way that makes sense to other people. bUt she's just kind of carefree here and i dont think she's putting pressure on herself to perform
this is the part that made me think Dya and Amy are paired
The wagons are Ender vs Logic
They pop in to defend Amy who is a wagon that might be taking off.
hm.
dya probably shields me as either alignment here but i think she puts more effort into the read if they're wolfing here, cause i think they know i'd get pocketed by a well-reasoned and thoroughly explained defense of me
and yes, i am aware of the irony inherent to me townreading them for this
and Amy's response was to town read Dya back without a fuzz
mmh
I didn't like when renata did that to logic
yet dya never reacted to it nor voted renata for it
I didn't want o have to do it this way, but very well.
Vote: Amp
Monty/Amy are unpaired as wolves.
Only minutes away, the top wagons have been Logic vs Ender, and Monty breaks that and pushes Amy into yeet zone tbh
hey visor whats your read on hk?
wolf dya asks town visor to ask about random player x minutes away from eod.
This comes out from nowhere.
"hey i am a wolf and now i will bring up my teammate out of nowhere as the wagons are moving"
nah.
hollowkatt
12-14-2022, 19:32
I think Monty is town.
I would like some people to read what I wrote about monty and tell me why I'm wrong or why I shouldn't be concerned. I think I've raised some decent points in the last couple of pages that should at least be recognized as existing even if only to say "HK ur dumb"
hollowkatt
12-14-2022, 19:33
well the thing is that looking at singular posts without context, then stuff changes tbh. So thats why I wanted to point it out. I agree that the post alone looks bad, at the same time... I have no tmi. Sometimes I will misclear wolves. It happens tbh
cries in Katze induced PTSD
hollowkatt
12-14-2022, 19:34
idk about renata. Her way to push me is very bad, but i am more used to town pushing me like this than scum. Scum normally tries to fake effort cases on me tbh
also what do you think of my reason to unpair Kage with ladd? No one has said anything about it which indicates to me that I am correct and that I am currently robbing scum from a lhf yeet.
even if you're wrong I like this way of thinking, very viby
idk about renata. Her way to push me is very bad, but i am more used to town pushing me like this than scum. Scum normally tries to fake effort cases on me tbh
also what do you think of my reason to unpair Kage with ladd? No one has said anything about it which indicates to me that I am correct and that I am currently robbing scum from a lhf yeet.
You've been pushing a dubious linkage between Amy and Dya the entire game that suits scum-you incredibly well provided either of them is scum, and your day one interactions with Dyachei sums up to "light scum read/oh wait now they're lean town". Like, I get it that town changes their reads. I do it constantly. But usually when I call somebody out on that shit they have something to say about why they changed their mind. They have a thought process they can return to, and explain what they were thinking at each point. It's a good way to find town.
You? You're not acting findable. You just say 'nah' and proceed to try to discredit my ideas with Hollowkatt in the same breath as you admit you're not actually putting me as scum yourself.
yet dya never reacted to it nor voted renata for it
I've been saying it the whole game. Dya pushes me when they are town. They don't do it as scum. They know they can't stand up to my OMGUS.
Literally the only thing that kept me from pushing Dyachei hard from day two was the assurances of the entire thread that they're different now. Evidently they're not.
Ender (4): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic
Ampharos (4): Boquise, Visor, Renata, Montmo
Logic (4): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Ladd (1): luv2spooge
EOD in 8 minutes.
csargo unlikely wolf due to the wagons. Ender unlikely wolf due to being voted by two wolves 8 minutes until eod.
If Amy wolf, renata and monty are cleared.
If Amy town, renata and monty scum equity rising.
There is a possibility that the whole wagon is town there but I do not think that BOTH Amy's and Logic's wagons are pure.
That means at least 1 of Amy and Taffy is a wolf. There is a chance that wolves commit 2 wolves on 2 wagons, which is I think what happens if Amy is a wolf. But gun to the head my gut says that only the Ender wagon consists of 2 wolves tbh.
If I go with my reads, I think HK is town. I have not decided yet if Kage IS town but I feel like ladd's way to handle my push makes him likely town. That would mean that all wolves are on wagon. We'll see if my thoughts change as I go down the rabbit hole.
This would mean that 1 of Monty/Renata is a wolf
I think both have been townie however so that is annoying tbh
I would like some people to read what I wrote about monty and tell me why I'm wrong or why I shouldn't be concerned. I think I've raised some decent points in the last couple of pages that should at least be recognized as existing even if only to say "HK ur dumb"
@ me with post numbers, I'll go back and look.
You've been pushing a dubious linkage between Amy and Dya the entire game that suits scum-you incredibly well provided either of them is scum, and your day one interactions with Dyachei sums up to "light scum read/oh wait now they're lean town". Like, I get it that town changes their reads. I do it constantly. But usually when I call somebody out on that shit they have something to say about why they changed their mind. They have a thought process they can return to, and explain what they were thinking at each point. It's a good way to find town.
You? You're not acting findable. You just say 'nah' and proceed to try to discredit my ideas with Hollowkatt in the same breath as you admit you're not actually putting me as scum yourself.
Dont act like you asked for my thought process there. You said "your d1 progression was terrible". A bad post gets a non-effort reply.
If someone sounds town to me on D1, I will most likely just say that they are town. My D1 reads are usually casual and I wont invent up reasons only because that fits the norm on How You Should Play 101. My progression on Dya, Amy, and all my reads for the matter, are played with open cards. So I am findable, you're just having some skill issue rn tbh
And yes I will discredit the quality of your push by pointing out that you are focusing on my lhf posts instead of trying to chug into my larger one. I will discredit you if all you come with is "your push is terrible".
cries in Katze induced PTSD
I saw that Logic town read Dya without giving much reasoning except "this looks like town Dya"
Guess Logic was a wolf tbh
csargo unlikely wolf due to the wagons. Ender unlikely wolf due to being voted by two wolves 8 minutes until eod.
If Amy wolf, renata and monty are cleared.
If Amy town, renata and monty scum equity rising.
There is a possibility that the whole wagon is town there but I do not think that BOTH Amy's and Logic's wagons are pure.
That means at least 1 of Amy and Taffy is a wolf. There is a chance that wolves commit 2 wolves on 2 wagons, which is I think what happens if Amy is a wolf. But gun to the head my gut says that only the Ender wagon consists of 2 wolves tbh.
If I go with my reads, I think HK is town. I have not decided yet if Kage IS town but I feel like ladd's way to handle my push makes him likely town. That would mean that all wolves are on wagon. We'll see if my thoughts change as I go down the rabbit hole.
This would mean that 1 of Monty/Renata is a wolf
I think both have been townie however so that is annoying tbh
I'm sure it's very annoying.
I saw that Logic town read Dya without giving much reasoning except "this looks like town Dya"
Guess Logic was a wolf tbh
Nah. Logic in retrospect was pretty pure with his comments to/about Dyachei. He asked them one really good alignment-seeking question even. Amy similar, Csargo VERY similar. I don't think Csargo and Dyachei are paired.
The obvious exceptions from day one are Ladd (mostly from Dyachei's side) and you (from yours).
csargo unlikely wolf due to the wagons. Ender unlikely wolf due to being voted by two wolves 8 minutes until eod.
If Amy wolf, renata and monty are cleared.
If Amy town, renata and monty scum equity rising.
There is a possibility that the whole wagon is town there but I do not think that BOTH Amy's and Logic's wagons are pure.
That means at least 1 of Amy and Taffy is a wolf. There is a chance that wolves commit 2 wolves on 2 wagons, which is I think what happens if Amy is a wolf. But gun to the head my gut says that only the Ender wagon consists of 2 wolves tbh.
If I go with my reads, I think HK is town. I have not decided yet if Kage IS town but I feel like ladd's way to handle my push makes him likely town. That would mean that all wolves are on wagon. We'll see if my thoughts change as I go down the rabbit hole.
This would mean that 1 of Monty/Renata is a wolf
I think both have been townie however so that is annoying tbh
So building on this:
I have previously unpaired Amy and Monty.
And in the post I am quoting, I am unpairing Amy with Renata (tho I know I have to resume reading the last 8 minutes so maybe I should shut up but no tbh).
That means, Amy can only be a wolf with Csargo, Taffy, HK, Kage.
Amy has tried to yeet Kage. Unpaired.
Csargo, Taffy, HK.
I am town reading HK pretty strongly.
Csargo, Taffy.
I think Csargo is town due to ladd and Dya already being on Ender. HOWEVER I can see why wolves would commit 3 wolves on 1 town wagon in hopes to save Amy, but that doesnt fit the timeline of votes (and Amy's wagon rising in votes). It also doesnt fit with occam's razors. Ladd and Dya are competent wolves. Idk who Csargo is, but he seems to be competent as a player. It is better to have at least 1 more wolf on the other town wagon (Logic). Otherwise wolves are boxed in. This makes Csargo also unlikely.
So based on process of elimination, if Amy is a wolf, she can only be with Taffy.
Which would make the wagons Town vs Scum vs Town. With 2 wolves on each town wagon.
Lets see what transpires in the last 8 minutes tbh
I'm sure it's very annoying.
it is indeed annoying that the puzzle pieces dont quite fit since that hints at an error in my reasoning.
Now are you going to be useful or snarky?
Nah. Logic in retrospect was pretty pure with his comments to/about Dyachei. He asked them one really good alignment-seeking question even. Amy similar, Csargo VERY similar. I don't think Csargo and Dyachei are paired.
The obvious exceptions from day one are Ladd (mostly from Dyachei's side) and you (from yours).
I see, that post must have escaped me entirely.
You complain about me not giving any reasoning and just writing "nah" to your claim, but can you instead of shading me and trying to sell a narrative quote my Dya post you have issues with?
No, I think I'm just going to switch back and leave it there. GTH you have a bigger chance of being a tonal misread than Logic does.
vote: Logic
dundunduuuuuuun
Logic (6): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy ,Visor, Renata
This wagon contains wolves.
With 2 out of 6 flipping town, I too think there is a likelihood for it tbh
TMI the movie?
But no, you're probably right.
Not advanced
funny self-aware reactions to pizza's call-out tbh?
gosh renata, your eod is pretty wolfy tbh
I would like some people to read what I wrote about monty and tell me why I'm wrong or why I shouldn't be concerned. I think I've raised some decent points in the last couple of pages that should at least be recognized as existing even if only to say "HK ur dumb"
I don't know why you're concerned. If it's D1/2 are more important than post-ladd flip, I just don't think that's how Monty reads the game.
Boquise in reference to Dyachei on day one.
i gift you a weak scum lean tbh
i am returning my gift to dya tbh
it is a sort of contribution i have seen wolves do tbh
You are probably town for keep driving this point when i have even before this discussion happened walked back on the FoS tbh
Then there is the reads post where Dyachei is 2nd of 4 town leans with three townies or probable townies, can't remember who exactly was in it anymore. That's literally it. Tell me what "walking back" you're referring to. Why did you let Dyachei off the hook. What is "towny" about responding to somebody twice. Let me see your brains.
(Also lol
Wolf Boq is nothing if not aggro at defending himself from accurate suspicion.)
This whole conversation feels like the two of you got together in wolf chat and decided to stage a push on somebody to save Visor's butt from getting crisped.
either open wolfing or spewed town tbh
dya's response is just a "lol"
so I am leaning at the latter tbh
gosh renata, your eod is pretty wolfy tbh
Day one? Yeah that's what happens when I roll up two hours before EoD and try to catch up out of sequence. I have no idea what I'm doing and it shows. I felt like the only options I had were to read through the isos of the top wagons quickly. I came up with Logic>Amy>Ender and stuck with that.
Boquise in reference to Dyachei on day one.
Then there is the reads post where Dyachei is 2nd of 4 town leans with three townies or probable townies, can't remember who exactly was in it anymore. That's literally it. Tell me what "walking back" you're referring to. Why did you let Dyachei off the hook. What is "towny" about responding to somebody twice. Let me see your brains.
(Also lol )
why is "You are probably town for keep driving this point when i have even before this discussion happened walked back on the FoS tbh" terrible?
in my experience, dya ignoring me walking back the scum read to just keep pursuing and arguing with me is something they'd do more often as town than scum. It is both them scum hunting me and them trying to stomp down a suspicion. Looks like I need to change my way to read dya tbh
I think I began walking it back after I had read up and seen Dya have similar thought process about Logic. As in, "I think Logic is wolfy, but I always think so". Why are you ignoring mine and Dya's back and forth where I actually talk to them about what I found wolfy with their post? It literally isn't it tbh
it's way too early in the game for the amount of wall posts I've seen
i gift you a weak scum lean tbh
ok
my hatred of wallposts isn't AI though
it is a sort of contribution i have seen wolves do tbh
You've seen villagers do it, too
yes but in general it is wolfy to whine about walls and do nothing else tbh because it is a super easy thing to do whilst you stay relevant in the thread conscious.
I'm not doing nothing else though?
We also have that time when Dya tried to make me not unpair Vulgard and Pizza and a short conversation happened:
pizza has a point though that vulgard's annoyance does not match with the amount of pushback they have received at this point though
unpairing you both tbh
eh, i know that I get more annoyed than people expect sometimes. Like that seems like a super subjective thing to rate
i am pretty sure cape is town tbh
i too get annoyed more than people expect, but i also think it is wolf indicative in a vacuum to get annoyed out of proportations. It is subjective and when Vulgard wrote more of his poe i felt like rescinding tbh
You are at the end of your post insinuating that I am being aggro. I think you are confbiasing yourself on that one, because I have been pretty free-flowy tbh. I cant really see any aggression tbh
in hindsight dya was a wolf being caught for the wrong reasons tbh
Day one? Yeah that's what happens when I roll up two hours before EoD and try to catch up out of sequence. I have no idea what I'm doing and it shows. I felt like the only options I had were to read through the isos of the top wagons quickly. I came up with Logic>Amy>Ender and stuck with that.
I see, so you get a day 1 pass huh tbh
i dont think you really believe that
also who the fuck would actually do that
mmh yeah this seems unpairy with renata tbh
villagery post
(but i disagree on dya, they look villagery in the exchange imo)
Wolf comes in to town read player who is voicing somewhat correct suspicion but also discouraging the sus on their partner by wolf reading them to tbh
kage feels like someone who is gonna die to the villagers regardless of alignment
best i got is that he is not w/w with boq (probably)
renata you seems to have more experience with them than me and i have no clue what their wolf range is but if a random player was posting like they are this game i'd easily call them a villager and call it a day
for amy my only fear is dya villa reading them, maybe i should respect dya's read more. but besides that i think they have been wolfy (tho not excessively so) and they fit like a glove in an ender!wolf world
Kage is a slot ladd expects to die (from villager blood, mind you, and who is voting kage and pushing him and stuff oh yeah thats me oh yeah thanks ladd for your laser sharp spew tbh)
also unpairs me with a player he expects to die.
I do not think Kage is a wolf.
HK (4): Kagemusha, dya, Renata, Boq
Ender (3), Ladd, Vulgard, Visor
Visor (3): HK, Ender, Taffy
Kagemusha (1): Cape
Vulgard (1): Amy
EOD in 3 hours.
unflipped vs town vs town
confirmed scum on Ender and HK.
Dya has been pushing HK all day zzzz
bad look for taffy through wagonomics zzzzzzzz
I'm pretty sure I'm voting for boq unless this didn't count for some reason
HK, close to death, decides to vanity wagon me (town) over visor who flipped town and ender who is like 99% spewed town.
nah, this is not scum play
I am noticing aggression coming out from nowhere with you tbh
Like
How should I know that you are in the thread? You have been inactive previously. Sorry, I don't have a Monty signal to know when I can and can't @ you tbh. But alright, fair enough. But if Ender flips town and you do absolutely nothing meaningful with the flip I will tunnel you until you flip, with gloves off.
I missed those posts, but I do not think I misrepresented Pizza. He pointed out something that he found wolfy on Renata. This was ignored. He then walked it back, but he still had that pov for a time tbh.
on d1 i asked a question to pizza when he was posting but he missed it and only responded later on d2 when i wasnt around
like wtf
Also if you are unable to show a single interaction/connection right now that should be interesting come a flip, then I am convinced you have none of them right now.
10 minutes have gone and a chance to duel with Monty has been put on hold tbh
sad
this is btw an example of me starting to gear up into boq aggro tbh
I feel like they have had a narrow POV in general
Vote: Kage
I don't have much of a real scumread on ladd tbh and I misread the top part of the post i quoted earlier in voting ladd
HK might just be mafia
gaah
i feel like there is 1 wolf in kage/hk so why not
Vote: hollowkatt
I liked Renata's page 62 case on HK
this is a bit of a retcon on my kage/hk clearings because apogee was n1'd and what really stood out with his play was his ladd vote.
So I suppose Cape could have died for being correct somewhere
Yeah I actually doubt boq is a wolf reading more
skill issue
ikr Cape90 tbh
skill issue
Following up on this from EoD yesterday.
No forget that one, I pulled it aside for some other reason and it accidentally multiquoted. Why did you vote on Logic's bandwagon at end of day to tie it up with Ender and Amy, when your only read on any of them all day was Logic town? (You had some interaction with Ender, too rushed to be certain you didn't give a read; nothing I think for Amy.)
Response from Taffy:
I do not believe you iso'd me at all. I specifically said his SoD looked like he was trying too hard to fit in with the wolftell jokes, mentioned p133, but that I thought his later posting improved. Then I engaged with him about his case on Visor, and found his reasoning lacking (though you're right I didn't say that till D2 I think).
You're trying to make my voting for Logic look wolfy but it wasn't.
Finally found it https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837203&viewfull=1#post2053837203
I swear to god I went through that iso three times before I noticed it. I was almost about to post again that I was right and confused about how Taffy could have gotten it so wrong.
Panic from end of day aside: Taffy's iso from day one looks good in a vacuum. Direct, to the point, logical. However there is no interaction with Ladd or Dyachei to do anything with and day two needs to be done.
reskimming monty iso mega quick i could also see him being a wolf
kinda weird him/kage have got so little heat considering they'd be the 2 easiest target (no offense)
i liked a couple of minor points from monty but really nothing i care to hang onto when there is so many villagery people
a random ladd post i found tbh
town's being wagoned
i guess one could throw in some scum mates name here for distancing
at the same time, kinda unnecessary when scum have control of the thread atp
Boquise with respect to post 2550 you hadn't walked back the scum read prior to reading Dyachei town "for pursuing even though I walked back the scum read". That's the whole point.
With all due respect, with regard to having walked back the scum read, what the heck are you referring to.
Also why did you walk back the scum read. It wasn't because of them pursuing the point, because you say you'd already done it by then. So why?
a random ladd post i found tbh
town's being wagoned
i guess one could throw in some scum mates name here for distancing
at the same time, kinda unnecessary when scum have control of the thread atp
Very unnecessary. At the same time,
Boquise, Monty, Csargo, Taffy, Kage, Hollowkatt, Ender
I have, or have had at some point in the game, fairly confident town reads on everybody here except for Kage. Somebody is scum despite posting well. I'd rather not have to believe it's two.
Boquise
question two posts up
the eod wagons d1 and d2 from my perspective tbh:
EOD1, final tally:
Logic (7): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy, Visor, Renata, Cape
Ender (5): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic , monty
Ampharos (2): Boquise, ATPG
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Ladd (1): luv2spooge
Logic has been chopped! He was vanilla town!
Start of day 2 in roughly 24 hours. (7 PM EST)
EOD2, Visor has been yeeted under the sun! He flips vanilla town
Visor (6): Ender, Taffy, Renata, Csargo, HK, Boq
Ender (4): Ladd, Vulgard, Monty, Visor
HK (3): Kagemusha, dya, Cape
Vulgard (1): Amy
SOD3 in 24 hours (7 PM EST)
colouring the people i strongly believe are town:
EOD1, final tally:
Logic (7): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy, Visor, Renata, Cape
Ender (5): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic , monty
Ampharos (2): Boquise, ATPG
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Ladd (1): luv2spooge
Logic has been chopped! He was vanilla town!
Start of day 2 in roughly 24 hours. (7 PM EST)
EOD2, Visor has been yeeted under the sun! He flips vanilla town
Visor (6): Ender, Taffy, Renata, Csargo, HK, Boq
Ender (4): Ladd, Vulgard, Monty, Visor
HK (3): Kagemusha, dya, Cape
Vulgard (1): Amy
SOD3 in 24 hours (7 PM EST)
With people I think are likely to be town:
EOD1, final tally:
Logic (7): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy, Visor, Renata, Cape
Ender (5): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic , monty
Ampharos (2): Boquise, ATPG
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Ladd (1): luv2spooge
Logic has been chopped! He was vanilla town!
Start of day 2 in roughly 24 hours. (7 PM EST)
EOD2, Visor has been yeeted under the sun! He flips vanilla town
Visor (6): Ender, Taffy, Renata, Csargo, HK, Boq
Ender (4): Ladd, Vulgard, Monty, Visor
HK (3):Kagemusha, dya, Cape
Vulgard (1): Amy
SOD3 in 24 hours (7 PM EST)
people i lean town
EOD1, final tally:
Logic (7): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy, Visor, Renata, Cape
Ender (5): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic , monty
Ampharos (2): Boquise, ATPG
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Ladd (1): luv2spooge
Logic has been chopped! He was vanilla town!
Start of day 2 in roughly 24 hours. (7 PM EST)
EOD2, Visor has been yeeted under the sun! He flips vanilla town
Visor (6): Ender, Taffy, Renata, Csargo, HK, Boq
Ender (4): Ladd, Vulgard, Monty, Visor
HK (3):Kagemusha, dya, Cape
Vulgard (1): Amy
SOD3 in 24 hours (7 PM EST)
my sureness of csargo and kage did go down a bit after reading that ladd post
amy still has the ladd convos around her that is a good look
I have tho locked myself into an amy/taffy team
Ender, Taffy and Renata have all three always voted the top wagon town that gets yeeted.
monty on ender with ladd
probably an error somewhere
Boquise with respect to post 2550 you hadn't walked back the scum read prior to reading Dyachei town "for pursuing even though I walked back the scum read". That's the whole point.
With all due respect, with regard to having walked back the scum read, what the heck are you referring to.
Also why did you walk back the scum read. It wasn't because of them pursuing the point, because you say you'd already done it by then. So why?
i was reading up so the order of how i read the thread was not completely chronological tbh
like I said, I walked back the scum read because of how they read Logic tbh
Totally not Taffy
12-14-2022, 23:33
and if so there's wolves there
I got the distinct feeling that Renata's EoD was specifically geared towards trying to make me go over Dyachei.
Vote: Renata
Explanations and catching up will have to wait till tomorrow (rl), today has been exhausting.
Totally not Taffy
12-14-2022, 23:39
Vote Taffy
And with her backing off today, it would make sense that you're number four. Especially given that you've been trying to link Dyachei to Amy, and the suggesting that Renata would be threadspewed from how we reacted to when you brought Asks' old sus back up.
i was reading up so the order of how i read the thread was not completely chronological tbh
like I said, I walked back the scum read because of how they read Logic tbh
This makes no sense. Let me try again.
You NEVER told Dyachei or stated in any way that you had retracted your scum read on them, prior to you saying you were going to town read them because they kept responding to you even after you retracted your scum read.
The whole reason for the town read is false. Like literally impossible. Dyachei could not have reacted to the thing you claimed they reacted favorably in response to, because that thing does not exist.
There's nothing about Logic in that part of your iso either as it relates to Dya. If you said it, you said it on day two, long after all of this happened.
If I'm wrong in my chronology please let me know. It would not be the first time.
Look at how I'm responding to questions about my past actions. Look how Csargo did when I questioned him. You're strikingly different. One liner responses, no elaboration on anything, even aside from what seems to be a blatant contradiction in your own process.
Taffy, read my explanation. I messed up. If you're a wolf it's not because of day one. I haven't been able to look at day two yet. Consider voting Boquise with me.
Doing more Dyachei read, starting day 2. Hollowkatt looks good for snap voting Dyachei in 945 off of their list of reads on Amy, Vulgard, Ender and somebody that they made to answer a question from Pizza. This is after Dyachei had shaded HK for not being memorable and Hollowkatt responded basically, same to you.
Up to page 40, think that's as far as I'm getting. Impressions so far --
Csargo and Hollowkatt look by far the best and are probably town and should be listened to.
Boquise looks by far the worst.
Amy's in this weird place where their tones in both direction read pure; I just don't like where Dyachei slotted her in one of their reads lists, it's like primo w/w slot (light town with two villagers).
Monty, Kage, Ender, Taffy - nothing remotely indicative of alignment in relation to Dyachei, or literally no interactions at all.
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 03:22
idk about renata. Her way to push me is very bad, but i am more used to town pushing me like this than scum. Scum normally tries to fake effort cases on me tbh
also what do you think of my reason to unpair Kage with ladd? No one has said anything about it which indicates to me that I am correct and that I am currently robbing scum from a lhf yeet.
A counterwagon gotta start somewhere - doesn't mean an attempt will always be successful. I think if Kage is town then Amy/Monty have higher scum equity. Monty has however been townsiding imo yesterday so I am more into Amy.
Like, remember how ladd treated my FoS on Kage. He encouraged it, gave it his blessings. I do not think he does that to a LHF wolf teammate. Ladd knows by now that it is easy to make me doubt by questioning my reads tbh
tbh it sounds like something a savvy wolf would do if they wanted to look good especially in a lobby where they've already been D1'd by many of the same people before.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying it isn't clearing for me
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 03:26
yeah ok fine
i don't like how logic went straight to "visor is a wolf" without even trying to engage with the read on him
if someone i thought had a really good read on me (e.g. dya) was incorrectly wolfreading me, i'd do everything in my power to figure out where the read is coming from and whether it has a good foundation before i'd write them off as a wolf. not once in my life have i been so confident in someone else's amy-reading abilities as to jump straight to "if X is wrong on my alignment, they're wolfing" without any intermediary steps
Ampharos why do you think Dya was treating you the way they did?
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 03:27
@ me with post numbers, I'll go back and look.
Renata
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game/page24?p=2053837265#post2053837265
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053839179&viewfull=1#post2053839179
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 03:31
So building on this:
I have previously unpaired Amy and Monty.
And in the post I am quoting, I am unpairing Amy with Renata (tho I know I have to resume reading the last 8 minutes so maybe I should shut up but no tbh).
That means, Amy can only be a wolf with Csargo, Taffy, HK, Kage.
Amy has tried to yeet Kage. Unpaired.
Csargo, Taffy, HK.
I am town reading HK pretty strongly.
Csargo, Taffy.
I think Csargo is town due to ladd and Dya already being on Ender. HOWEVER I can see why wolves would commit 3 wolves on 1 town wagon in hopes to save Amy, but that doesnt fit the timeline of votes (and Amy's wagon rising in votes). It also doesnt fit with occam's razors. Ladd and Dya are competent wolves. Idk who Csargo is, but he seems to be competent as a player. It is better to have at least 1 more wolf on the other town wagon (Logic). Otherwise wolves are boxed in. This makes Csargo also unlikely.
So based on process of elimination, if Amy is a wolf, she can only be with Taffy.
Which would make the wagons Town vs Scum vs Town. With 2 wolves on each town wagon.
Lets see what transpires in the last 8 minutes tbh
I'm wondering why three wolves would pile on to save Amy who's really not been any kind of impactful, didn't show signs of being impactful, and generally was already scraping "disassociated wolf" reads from others in the thread. I feel like that would be antithetical to smart wolf play there. If someone not really contributing is getting sussed exerting effort like that to save them runs the risk of outing the whole team, yeah?
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 04:59
in hindsight dya was a wolf being caught for the wrong reasons tbh
why do you say that?
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 05:06
unflipped vs town vs town
confirmed scum on Ender and HK.
Dya has been pushing HK all day zzzz
bad look for taffy through wagonomics zzzzzzzz
I don't follow how it's a bad look for taffy via wagonomics?
I mean ok, that's a lie I have a theory but I want to hear yours first.
This makes no sense. Let me try again.
You NEVER told Dyachei or stated in any way that you had retracted your scum read on them, prior to you saying you were going to town read them because they kept responding to you even after you retracted your scum read.
The whole reason for the town read is false. Like literally impossible. Dyachei could not have reacted to the thing you claimed they reacted favorably in response to, because that thing does not exist.
There's nothing about Logic in that part of your iso either as it relates to Dya. If you said it, you said it on day two, long after all of this happened.
If I'm wrong in my chronology please let me know. It would not be the first time.
Look at how I'm responding to questions about my past actions. Look how Csargo did when I questioned him. You're strikingly different. One liner responses, no elaboration on anything, even aside from what seems to be a blatant contradiction in your own process.
Me saying "I gift you a scum read" is a scum read, and then "I return my gift to Dya" is me walking it back tbh. I also didn't state anything about Logic to Dya there because no one asked. At D1, and especially D1s where I am out of time and out of energy, I don't care for making any grand reasoning unless I get inspired.
I honestly don't care at all that I am different to you and others. If I don't have large words and paragraphs to explain myself then I won't invent them. I have explained to the best of my ability. I don't care if my process seems contradictory because I don't care for it to follow a straight line.
You are scum reading me because you don't understand my playstyle. Some stuff I can't explain well because I just do. This game will teach you that contradictions =/= scummy and that some people will not play in the way you expect/want them to. Or you're just scum and in that case carry on.
You have yet to respond where I am being aggressive tbh
tbh it sounds like something a savvy wolf would do if they wanted to look good especially in a lobby where they've already been D1'd by many of the same people before.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying it isn't clearing for me
That's fair. Renata did try to bury Visor on D2 and is now trying to bury me, so maybe she is scum after all.
I feel more sure that Kage is not with ladd because that's a far weaker slot
I'm wondering why three wolves would pile on to save Amy who's really not been any kind of impactful, didn't show signs of being impactful, and generally was already scraping "disassociated wolf" reads from others in the thread. I feel like that would be antithetical to smart wolf play there. If someone not really contributing is getting sussed exerting effort like that to save them runs the risk of outing the whole team, yeah?
Exactly. So Csargo should be seen as cleared
why do you say that?
Because she was getting uh i don't know the English word
Like passive-aggressive/vindicative?
"I haven't done nothing?" was what she wrote to me after i explained the wolf read and considering she was a wolf it seems if we read the conversation that she was thinking that i was wolf reading her for the wrong reasons
I don't follow how it's a bad look for taffy via wagonomics?
I mean ok, that's a lie I have a theory but I want to hear yours first.
Because i don't believe that the Visor wagon at that point is pure and I town read both you and HK.
Because she was getting uh i don't know the English word
Like passive-aggressive/vindicative?
"I haven't done nothing?" was what she wrote to me after i explained the wolf read and considering she was a wolf it seems if we read the conversation that she was thinking that i was wolf reading her for the wrong reasons
They*
Ok. Lets have a look at the process how Dya was lynched.
Amy (2): Boquise, Vulgard
Kage(1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Renata (1) : Csargo
Dya (1): Ender
1st one to vote is Ender so hardly bussing a partner.
Dya (2): Ender, Vulgard
Taffy (1): Monty
Monty(1): HK
Csargo (1): Renata
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
2nd one to vote Vulgard, who is confirmed town.
Taffy (3): Monty, Csargo, Ender
Dya (2): Vulgard, Renata
Monty(1): HK
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
At this point Csargo and Ender move to Taffy, creates a question mark on Csargo. Renata 3rd on Dya which still could be anything.Ender later reveals his play there.
Dya (4): Vulgard, Renata, Taffy, HK
Taffy (3): Monty, Csargo, Ender
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
At this point Taffy and HK move to Dya. Could be self preservation for scum Taffy, but this here shows i was wrong about HK. Would he in any real universe make a deciding push against his mafia partner? Rock solid town move.
Dya (5): Vulgard, Renata, Taffy, HK, Boquise
Taffy (3): Monty, Csargo, Ender
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
Now Boquise joins up to make it 5-3 for Dya. Me thinks still so close that this is a town vote as well.
Dya (6): Vulgard, , Taffy, HK, Boquise, Renata, Ender
Taffy (2): Monty, Csargo
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
Here Ender returns to voting Dya to make sure it sticks.
So conclusions based on this.
Town
Ender, HK
townish
Renata, Taffy, Boque
neutral
Monty, Amy
scummish
Csargo
Based on this im gonna. Vote: Csargo
Wondering if this is almost too disconnected from anything else going on to be mafia.
I just don't know.
If Taffy's a wolf, most likely the best indicator is that they've all but disappeared. There's nothing wrong with their tone, their arguments insofar as I've been able to read are logical. I'm lacking interactions with Dyachei or Ladd; if that keeps up through day two then maybe there's something there but I haven't looked yet.
hollowkatt I saw your @, going to look at the posts in the morning; I'm too tired to read for comprehension right now.
I'm wondering why three wolves would pile on to save Amy who's really not been any kind of impactful, didn't show signs of being impactful, and generally was already scraping "disassociated wolf" reads from others in the thread. I feel like that would be antithetical to smart wolf play there. If someone not really contributing is getting sussed exerting effort like that to save them runs the risk of outing the whole team, yeah?
Amy wasn't a wagon when we all voted D1. Amy had one vote from Boq iirc.
Amy wasn't a wagon when we all voted D1. Amy had one vote from Boq iirc.
Amy was a wagon at the last hours. She could have easily gone over there
Amy was a wagon at the last hours. She could have easily gone over there
Yeah, I meant when me, ladd, and dya voted ender, there was no Amy wagon. So the idea that it could have been to save Amy wouldn't be a thing.
Unless you wanna say we were locked in because Amy became a wagon.
And with her backing off today, it would make sense that you're number four. Especially given that you've been trying to link Dyachei to Amy, and the suggesting that Renata would be threadspewed from how we reacted to when you brought Asks' old sus back up.
Are you saying you think it's Boq/Renata ?
Yeah, I meant when me, ladd, and dya voted ender, there was no Amy wagon. So the idea that it could have been to save Amy wouldn't be a thing.
When Dya voted there was an Amy wagon iirc
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 07:06
I'm still working on the voting analysis but assume you're right for a hot second. That would put the POE squarely at:
Csargo, Monty, Amy, Kage if you really do think the Dya wagon is pure in which case we kill all of them yeah?
I'm not following. I didn't say the dya wagon was pure, I said we have to take bussing into consideration (i.e. not pure). Just like, you know, Pizza spent 1000 words explaining in the quote.
Wolves couldn't have expected vulgard to nuke Ladd. Nor could they have anticipated a dogpile on dya to end the day. I think, like ender and csargo do, that post ladd nuke wolves were scrambling to figure out what they could do. Do you think wolves were busing Dya and if so who are the wolves in this bucket: Taffy, HK, Boq, Renata, Ender?
They had 36 hours to adjust to the threadstate, which was increasingly anti-dya, with few alternatives put forward as serious votes. This is surely enough for bussing to be possible.
If you don't know who I suspect out of that list of names, you should reread my posts since D3.
Like first you call out Amy and Kage for being off wagon (while the taffy wagon was you and csargo) and now you are saying post ladd was a bus-like situation. I've got a bad feeling about you
Are you going to pursue forthright misunderstandings every day then?
At no point did I connect Amp's or Kage's alignment to their wagon position D3. If you'll recall, I did earlier highlight that they had each ended off-wagon on one of the prior days, so it was remarkable to see them both doing it.
As Pizza explained, and I agree, it doesn't have to be a bus situation, we just have no choice but to read it as one, particularly in the context of the D3 gamestate, which to repeat was much more restricted than that of early game. Therefore, voting dya D3 does not confer town-cred, unless you can find a single player who made the dya wagon happen above others. They, at least, get a pass, but not a clear. To my awareness there isn't anyone who fits that description, other than maybe ender.
So stop wasting time on hard-defending Day 3.
Logic (3): Amy, Ender, Vulgard
Ender (3): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei
Visor (2): Montmo, Logic
HK (1): Taffy
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Boquise: (1): Visor
Ampharos (1): Boquise
Vulgard(1): luv2spooge
:book2:
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 07:15
the question is if dya votes ender knowing wolf!ladd and wolf!csargo are already there
3 wolves on the same wagon.
I usually read this as town points for the unflipped player, which is csargo
That Logic is voted by Amy, Ender and Vulgard, only 1 flipping town, makes me draw back towards Amy being a wolf but I guess it could be pure, given that the counter wagon is a town (imo) and the second largest is a confirmed town too.
I think Csargo is town due to ladd and Dya already being on Ender. HOWEVER I can see why wolves would commit 3 wolves on 1 town wagon in hopes to save Amy, but that doesnt fit the timeline of votes (and Amy's wagon rising in votes). It also doesnt fit with occam's razors. Ladd and Dya are competent wolves. Idk who Csargo is, but he seems to be competent as a player. It is better to have at least 1 more wolf on the other town wagon (Logic). Otherwise wolves are boxed in. This makes Csargo also unlikely.
I've had the feeling that your run-through today has been makework, but this is a reasonable post, unbiased by the knowledge that I said it earlier.
I'm wondering why three wolves would pile on to save Amy who's really not been any kind of impactful, didn't show signs of being impactful, and generally was already scraping "disassociated wolf" reads from others in the thread. I feel like that would be antithetical to smart wolf play there. If someone not really contributing is getting sussed exerting effort like that to save them runs the risk of outing the whole team, yeah?
lol read my posts
wolf dya asks town visor to ask about random player x minutes away from eod.
This comes out from nowhere.
"hey i am a wolf and now i will bring up my teammate out of nowhere as the wagons are moving"
nah.
I make a note of this in my upcoming ISO, but are you sure you're not trying to pocket HK?
That means at least 1 of Amy and Taffy is a wolf.
Yes, and not very surprising.
in hindsight dya was a wolf being caught for the wrong reasons tbh
I think the reasons I developed were pretty strong.
this is a bit of a retcon on my kage/hk clearings because apogee was n1'd and what really stood out with his play was his ladd vote.
So I suppose Cape could have died for being correct somewhere
Cape was hard on ladd multiple times D2, and voted him at least once (I recall briefly during EOD).
This makes no sense. Let me try again.
You NEVER told Dyachei or stated in any way that you had retracted your scum read on them, prior to you saying you were going to town read them because they kept responding to you even after you retracted your scum read.
Not so?
#419/38: Dya questions the validity (via Boq's approbation) of Pizza's suspicion of Vulgard's level of tilt; dya finds annoyance non-indicative and references own experience. Boq agrees but considers disproportionate annoyance scum-leaning in a vacuum. But Boq now wishes to rescind this impression of Vulgard as the latter has posted more.
#426: Boq tells Pizza he's rescinding the weak scum read on dya.
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 07:19
DYACHEI ASSOCIATIONS (D1-D2.5)
NB: Highlighted text represents what dyachei himself was doing/saying, to prevent confusion arising from my format. I may have been sloppier this time around. Also, this doesn't include late-D2 dyachei activity because I don't have time.
AMP
#355/70: dya comments "i feel like exactly the people i would expect to be wolf read pre-rand are the ones people are most concerned about" and Csargo asks if they mean Logic and Ender. Dya say's Amy.
#453: amy probably a light v read. it's mostly based on tone. I expect I'll continue to be able to read her and update this as time goes on. Amy responds with "thanks boss i'm happy willing resigned to help."
#458: Amy thinks Pizza confidence is villagery. Dya recalls that Amy said the opposite before. Amy said that was in reference to a different aspect, not confidence in worldbuilding.
#509: Amy Cape Vulgard all light town.
#552: Amy to Vulgard: i don't like how logic went straight to "visor is a wolf" without even trying to engage with the read on him
if someone i thought had a really good read on me (e.g. dya) was incorrectly wolfreading me, i'd do everything in my power to figure out where the read is coming from and whether it has a good foundation before i'd write them off as a wolf. Pizza calls this post "wrong but believable."
#745: Amy's reads: uhhh cape and vulgard are probably my strongest townreads. visor and hk maybe a tier below, both mostly off vibes. dya i don't want to kill before i can get a solid read on them, ladd/pizza i kinda just don't want to kill d1 in general
#809: i wish I could explain why amy's tone is villagery to me in a way that makes sense to other people. bUt she's just kind of carefree here and i dont think she's putting pressure on herself to perform
#814: "dya probably shields me as either alignment here but i think she puts more effort into the read if they're wolfing here"
#824: In response to Renata's vote, "hello renata, i don't think we've ever met before but i think you entering thread and immediately jumping on ambient ampharos wagon momentum is a touch sketchy." Dya responds with "I didn't like when renata did that to logic"
#850: i mostly hate these wagons cuz i think logic and amy are v. Pizza comments on this in #1475 but hard to describe.
#918: Dya reads list responding to Pizza pressure includes Ender null but POE, Visor lackluster, and t-Vulgard. On Amy: "Amy read is based almost entirely on tone atp. I have played with her many times and have hydra'd with her. I think my read on her tends to be better than most people's read on her."
#1264: Amp reads post: "think my current gamestate perspective is, like. there's a big-ish pile of people that i was weakly townreading/nullreading yesterday, and i need to get a much better handle on them today, because i think the vast majority of wolves are in that pile. talking people like... dya boq hk kage. that's not a wolfreads list or even really the full suspects pool but i think i would be really, really surprised if there's not at least one in there."
BOQUISE
#389: Dya greets Boq. Boq reciprocates.
#410/12/17/35/39/46/51: Dya complains about wall-posts and boq jibes "i gift you a weak scum lean tbh." Dya retorts that not liking wall-posts is not AI, but Boq feels "it is a sort of contribution i have seen wolves do tbh." Dya reminds him that he's seen townies do it too, but Boq believes that "yes but in general it is wolfy to whine about walls and do nothing else tbh because it is a super easy thing to do whilst you stay relevant in the thread conscious." Dya says that they haven't been doing nothing but whining about walls.
#419/38: Dya questions the validity (via Boq's approbation) of Pizza's suspicion of Vulgard's level of tilt; dya finds annoyance non-indicative and references own experience. Boq agrees but considers disproportionate annoyance scum-leaning in a vacuum. But Boq now wishes to rescind this impression of Vulgard as the latter has posted more.
#426: Boq tells Pizza he's rescinding the weak scum read on dya.
#603: Boq finds dya towny for persisting in the long exchange (see above) even though Boq rescinded the FoS already.
#719: After losing weak TL on Amp and voting her,
town reads:
cape, vulgard
town leans:
visor, dya, hk, luvs
#720: Dya immediately reacts to the above with "how did the thread react and what do you think about it?" Boq says thread didn't react and discusses impressions of Kage, Logic, and Visor, concluding with light FoS on Kage. Logic finds this exchange scummy for dya in #736.
#1245-84: Boq quotes a Vulgard post to dya asking if that's the one they disliked. Dya acknowledges it, describing the Vulg post as "wolfy backtalk." But Boq finds it TWTBAW. Dya responds that she thinks Vulgard was caught in a lie. Boq still doesn't believe m-Vulgard would be "textbook wolfy."
CSARGO
#344: Dya asks Csargo about Logic meta since Csargo is SRing Logic. Csargo doesn't know.
#355: dya comments "i feel like exactly the people i would expect to be wolf read pre-rand are the ones people are most concerned about" and Csargo asks if they mean Logic and Ender. Dya say's Amy.
#540: Responding to a Logic reads posts that has one sentence mentioning that dya being comfortable is scummy, Csargo says "I could see dya, don't get visor tho. I don't know anything about town dya though, I don't think." Logic in #676 finds reason to TR dya.
#659: To Vulgard lamenting a wasted day if Logic is town: If Logic's town we just yeet visor for funsies. prob dya as well. Csargo currently believes m-Logic and t/t Visor-dya.
#1328: In the middle of commentary responding to Taffy: "No idea what to make of the dya[-HK] back and forth."
#1446: Csargo questions dya's play: "A significant portion of dya's iso is either defending/explaining why logic/ampharos/vulgard are town. Is this normal? Does town Dya just defend their townreads a lot? Dya called cape and taffy v, but I didn't really see much else."
HOLLOW (HK)
#839: [I]"hey visor whats your read on hk?"
#852: "i basically dont remember anything hk has done this game and I think that's wolfy for him but I should have come to this realization with more than 5 mins to EOD". Pizza comments that this "can be distancing" on D2.
898: To Pizza's sketch of EOD wagons: "I'll be reading dya and boq today as I remember functionally nothing either of them said and both of them are extremely competent players on all sides of the alignment aisle"
#909: "I think hk is where I want to focus today. I remember nothing from him and he's usually pretty memorable". Pizza responds to this with "Do you have a larger footprint than that, or is this antispew?" See commentaries for dya's response. HK retorts "interesting b/c that's where I'm at with you." Dya puts off addressing that for IRL reasons.
#945-67: HK votes dya over her reads post #918 (see Amp subsection). In response dya asks HK "why are you so...calm...this game hk?" HK explains new meta in #952. Dya still doesn't like the lack of "villagery aggressiveness" and pushes. Further back and forth re: meta. Pizza find's dya's performance scummy for "hurdling."
#996: "if [Ender] a wolf at least one partner is in the Kage/Ladd/Dya bucket"
#1161: HK's shade of Pizza is "villagery read for early game."
#1419: HK votes Boq with the comment, "also dya is still on my chopping block today. Visor, Taffy, Ender, Cape, Csargo all probably not."
KAGE
#1152: After reading D1 Kage offers his leans, with the following scummy (top to bottom): Monty dyachei Vulgard cape90 Hollowkatt [This is a common sweet spot to slot partners into]
Kage specifically found dya scummy for "(#751 second follow Ender)." This refers to her naked vote on Ender, third on the wagon, tieing with Logic. ["third vote is a wagon is scum" is an Old Gameroom superstition that Kage would be familiar with as an OG. On the other hand, ladd was clearly making a strategy around pushing Ender, one that dya was implementing, so this could also be Kage in on the deal.]
#1181: Renata questions Kage's case and vote on HK, and he responds: "Hollowkatt has so far voted ATGP, luv2spooge, dyachei and Visor, but i have not seen any attempt of case or building pressure against any of them"
MONTY
#715: Dya tells Visor they didn't even realize I was in the game.
#1005: I ask dya about Amy (player Amy or daughter Amy?).
#1006: Reads: Ladd & dyachei have rolled mafia in Org games I've - many of us have - played in. I don't remember any meta. Null.
RENATA
#812: Renata greets dya right after voting Amp for switching to TL Logic.
#833: Responding to Amp requesting details on her sus of her: You feel detached, like you're just kind of watching the thread go by without engaging much, and I didn't like your approach to Logic though I can't quite remember why. Dyachei's take on you is interesting(?) and I'm considering it
#922: Renata finds a Vulgard post unbelievable from townie POV and dya asks why. #929/30/34/39/43 for an inconclusive exchange.
#1115/31: Pace Pizza shading dya for hurdling (see HK subsection), Renata: "I liked Dyacheis little sus of me, felt like old times, and disappointed she?s not halfway into a death tunnel already. [...] I think Dyachei?s defense kind of spews Amy town if Dya isn?t." Pizza votes dya soon after. Visor approves of the comment on dya-Amy spew.
#1199: Renata asks dya to elaborate on their t-Vulgard case in the context of some Vulgard post. Dya delivers a hedgy Vulgard read in response. She then suddenly reverses outright and doesn't like Vulgard's posting anymore. "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much" right after presenting a wall concluding that Vulgard is town was a tell, the exact same tell as with ladd.]
#1584: In response to Csargo questioning dya's play in #1446 (see Csargo subsection), Renata susses dya: "My main takeaway from playing with Dya back in the day was that they as town would go very aggro on me (as town) a lot. The closest I ever came to being a town-led mislynch on MU was due to a Dyachei death tunnel. I?m not used to them being so soft, either on me (they basically haven?t commented on me at all) and I do read it as wolfy."
TAFFY
#907: From reads list ("People I would prefer not to yeet today but have no firm read on"): "Dyachei: nothing you have done has stood out to me one way or another, the only reason you're not above Asks is that someone suggested a team with you and Visor yesterday and I liked it because it was the first suggestion that wasn't wholly made up of "awkward" people if that makes sense. Also sheeping Logic a little."
#1213: When Visor solicits reads on Taffy, dya says "gut says v." [This is very similar to ladd's scummy offhand D1 t-read of dya, a generalized scumtell.]
#1321: Taffy quotes a Vulgard reads post and asks for thoughts on dya, because until Taffy read that post she thought dya fit into many possible scumteams. [In two paragraphs the literally all of relevance Vulgard said was "Taffy is my top town" and "I think dya is town." This piggybacking by Taffy is bad right???
#1329: In connection with Cape finding dya completely out of scum range, and surprising if scum: "What is Dyachei like as a wolf that you're not seeing here?" Cape offers a long reply (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837975&viewfull=1#post2053837975). Including their wall TRing Vulgard, even if the backtracking and some other behaviors are unusual for dya. Also: "I feel like dyachei's posts usually come off in their wolf game as a lot more mild with less actual effort put into them."
VULGARD
mEH
ENDER
#977: Reads: Kage/Ladd/Dyachei are the grouping I don't really have a read on properly rn.
#1038: Reads: Csargo is an ehehhh with Dya/ladd/Kage just above.
meh.......
Commentary (D1): Dya first appears halfway through D1, fluffs with Vulgard, discusses bad feeling about Logic and null feeling about Pizza with Visor and Csargo.
In response to Csargo, dya mentions that Amy is her top pre-game concern. Agrees on Vulgard town with Visor.
Interactions with cape, leading to cape TRing dya.
During this time ladd, dya, Amp, and Boq, among others, are all active.
Of living players, Boq has potentially-performative exchanges with Amp and Boq. If either are AI, I think it's with Boq to a small-to-moderate extent.
Dya wishes they could read Ender better than null, judges Pizza to fit in both metas.
#659 decent for Csargo. Pizza approves as well.
Amy #745: uhhh cape and vulgard are probably my strongest townreads. visor and hk maybe a tier below, both mostly off vibes. dya i don't want to kill before i can get a solid read on them, ladd/pizza i kinda just don't want to kill d1 in general
Given that Amy basically replicated ladd's reads - or better to say ladd replicated her reads by early D2 (this quote is D1) - and he POEd her throughout his life, while dya's interactions on the surface feel like the most overtly associative and buddying of arguably any in the game, my feeling is that we see evidence of ladd-dya coordination around Amy but nothing really of Amy with ladd/dya. Amy displays no strategy vis-a-vis ladd and dya, despite the crumminess of her reads. The interactions do suggest the Mafia team were cultivating Amy as a mid-POE ML IMO, without Amy's input or participation. Even if we can't clear her because it's possible she was just open scumming with her team, it feels like a strange approach in combination with POEing her. Since if ladd gets m-Amy flipped before dya for bussing cred, it just draws attention to dya associatives and plausibly puts dya in the POE. Dya went out of their way to make assoc with Amy, including Rule of Three, and I believe it's antispew.
I think if Boq further flips scum, it's yet more evidence of a coordinated strategy of shaping perceptions around Amy without her inclusion. Like a patsy.
Commentary (D2):
Dya's response to Pizza shading their FoS on HK.
I have a POE larger than that but HK was getting almost no attention and I think that's a problem
I think visor and ender are also in the POE
Vulgard and Amy are likely v
Dya-HK assoc, such as they were, look decent for him, like his slot is an afterthought to dya. Voting dya, then voting Boq while maintaining dya as a secondary and rejecting Ender and Visor as candidates D2 (#1419) is good, but it's negated by both starting and ending on Visor (Town MVP at that time).
Vulgard's reads (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837617&viewfull=1#post2053837617) in response to Pizza:
Taffy is my top town.
Csargo/dya/Ender/Taffy is a grouping of people who have staunchly townread me. I do townread them indepenedently, but I feel like their reads on me could be biasing me. Possibly a wolf in here but I don't necessarily want to go there; rn I'd say the wolf is between Csargo and Ender.
...
Interesting comment to Visor, in retrospect indicating PIS (dya knew that Vulgard was town):
if vulgard flips w, it clears pizza (not to mention having a wolf desperado is shitty)
if vulgard flips v, i dont think it changes much for me
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 07:22
In #1183 dya makes potentially their most detailed post of the game, casing Vulgard town. Ladd is currently all-in on Vulgard being town, and expresses so around the same time as dya (to name one instance). May be worthwhile to look more closely into how players related to Ender, Vulgard, and Amy in particular, as Mafia appear to have adopted a calculated collective approach toward each of them, perhaps as part of a long-term plan to shape the consensus POE.
#1199: Renata asks dya to elaborate on their t-Vulgard case in the context of some Vulgard post. Dya delivers a hedgy Vulgard read in response. She then suddenly reverses outright and doesn't like Vulgard's posting anymore. "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much" right after presenting a wall concluding that Vulgard is town was a tell, the exact same tell as with ladd.]
^^^
This urges me toward hardclearing Renata, because this is clearly a slip by dya and it was the exact same flip-flop as wrt ladd later (in response to Visor's questions).
I'm only getting increasingly attached to a POE of Taffy-Boq. Most likely to be wrong about Amp. Kage remains a pure wildcard. I doubt this game can be solved without at least trusting HK and Renata, and probably YOLO with Csargo. Also keep in mind, Taffy-Boq-Kage-Amy would each fit into a separate category in ladd's big D2 reads post (#1579), with Csargo sharing a category with dyachei, who has flipped ofc.
Please read through the dya ISO for key interactions.
Thoughts on how Boq specifically fits in worlds: Mafia seemed to be coordinating on developing collective POE, and all of ladd-Boq-dya adopted strong, interactive, reads on Amy. Ladd quasi-tunneled Amy, dya constantly interacted with Amy in a mutually-buddying way, and Boq helped dya generate content (such as creating a team balance on Vulgard reads) while linking them to Amy. Alternatively, Amy could be doing an open-scum drag show (and there's no way Amy and dya would not have been aware of how many connections they were creating). I prefer the former scenario. Also, Boq had a lot of shallow mutually-supporting interactions with ladd (see ISO).
But there is some reason to treat them as anti-paired.
My teams for now (last two unordered):
Taffy-Boq
Taffy-Amp
Boq-Kage
Taffy-Kage
As I've laid out, there are good reasons to trust Csargo, HK, and Renata, great reasons to lock Ender, and I just flat-out refuse to believe Amp-Kage.
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 07:23
Csargo @Hollowkat Renata
Don't respond to me without reading all my posts today please.
I've had the feeling that your run-through today has been makework, but this is a reasonable post, unbiased by the knowledge that I said it earlier.
lol read my posts
I make a note of this in my upcoming ISO, but are you sure you're not trying to pocket HK?
Yes, and not very surprising.
I think the reasons I developed were pretty strong.
Cape was hard on ladd multiple times D2, and voted him at least once (I recall briefly during EOD).
Not so?
#419/38: Dya questions the validity (via Boq's approbation) of Pizza's suspicion of Vulgard's level of tilt; dya finds annoyance non-indicative and references own experience. Boq agrees but considers disproportionate annoyance scum-leaning in a vacuum. But Boq now wishes to rescind this impression of Vulgard as the latter has posted more.
#426: Boq tells Pizza he's rescinding the weak scum read on dya.
i meant that dya felt caught for the wrong reasons on d1 in their interaction with me tbh
nah i am not pocketing hk, but he and i have history.
We had a back and forth on D2 where I was voting him and then I decided to town read him based on his answers.
I pocketed HK hard in a recent scum game of mine, and in an even more recent game we were towning but I was unsure on his alignment. So I wanted him to show his teeth so I could make a read tbh
but like, given how dya really really really wanted HK to be yeeted, even threw his name into the ring at eod1 and got iirc Csargo talk about HK being a bit sketch, I think it is safe to assume HK is town tbh
In #1183 dya makes potentially their most detailed post of the game, casing Vulgard town. Ladd is currently all-in on Vulgard being town, and expresses so around the same time as dya (to name one instance). May be worthwhile to look more closely into how players related to Ender, Vulgard, and Amy in particular, as Mafia appear to have adopted a calculated collective approach toward each of them, perhaps as part of a long-term plan to shape the consensus POE.
#1199: Renata asks dya to elaborate on their t-Vulgard case in the context of some Vulgard post. Dya delivers a hedgy Vulgard read in response. She then suddenly reverses outright and doesn't like Vulgard's posting anymore. "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much" right after presenting a wall concluding that Vulgard is town was a tell, the exact same tell as with ladd.]
^^^
This urges me toward hardclearing Renata, because this is clearly a slip by dya and it was the exact same flip-flop as wrt ladd later (in response to Visor's questions).
I'm only getting increasingly attached to a POE of Taffy-Boq. Most likely to be wrong about Amp. Kage remains a pure wildcard. I doubt this game can be solved without at least trusting HK and Renata, and probably YOLO with Csargo. Also keep in mind, Taffy-Boq-Kage-Amy would each fit into a separate category in ladd's big D2 reads post (#1579), with Csargo sharing a category with dyachei, who has flipped ofc.
Please read through the dya ISO for key interactions.
Thoughts on how Boq specifically fits in worlds: Mafia seemed to be coordinating on developing collective POE, and all of ladd-Boq-dya adopted strong, interactive, reads on Amy. Ladd quasi-tunneled Amy, dya constantly interacted with Amy in a mutually-buddying way, and Boq helped dya generate content (such as creating a team balance on Vulgard reads) while linking them to Amy. Alternatively, Amy could be doing an open-scum drag show (and there's no way Amy and dya would not have been aware of how many connections they were creating). I prefer the former scenario. Also, Boq had a lot of shallow mutually-supporting interactions with ladd (see ISO).
But there is some reason to treat them as anti-paired.
My teams for now (last two unordered):
Taffy-Boq
Taffy-Amp
Boq-Kage
Taffy-Kage
As I've laid out, there are good reasons to trust Csargo, HK, and Renata, great reasons to lock Ender, and I just flat-out refuse to believe Amp-Kage.
this makes me feel better about locking in Renata. I was getting a bit miffed because she was trying to bury Visor too and he reacted. And because in my last town game, a scum player did tunnel me through most parts of the game (which is rare). However I found him as scum and I found the town player who tunnelled me too, and Renata is closer in her approach to the town player than the scum player now gth.
i think people who havent played with me misunderstand my approach
on D1 i do casual reads and poke around, to develop reads. It is by D3 I can start solving by flips. My reads are generally weak. I solve through laying out the puzzle pieces and see what fits + adding in player psychology and my assumptions.
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 13:58
Migraines have made reading hard.
Will try to be around for eod but no promises.
I'm still working on the voting analysis but assume you're right for a hot second. That would put the POE squarely at:
Csargo, Monty, Amy, Kage if you really do think the Dya wagon is pure in which case we kill all of them yeah?
hollowkatt the one link you sent me about Monty (the other one was about Ampharos, not Monty, maybe you linked the wrong one). I'm not really following your suspicion. Monty is saying the Dya wagon looks pure somewhere apparently? But is advocating voting Taffy (on Dya out of self-pres) and Boquise (on Dya at end of day)? Is that it or something else? What is the world you think Monty is trying to go for?
I've had the feeling that your run-through today has been makework, but this is a reasonable post, unbiased by the knowledge that I said it earlier.
lol read my posts
I make a note of this in my upcoming ISO, but are you sure you're not trying to pocket HK?
Yes, and not very surprising.
I think the reasons I developed were pretty strong.
Cape was hard on ladd multiple times D2, and voted him at least once (I recall briefly during EOD).
Not so?
#419/38: Dya questions the validity (via Boq's approbation) of Pizza's suspicion of Vulgard's level of tilt; dya finds annoyance non-indicative and references own experience. Boq agrees but considers disproportionate annoyance scum-leaning in a vacuum. But Boq now wishes to rescind this impression of Vulgard as the latter has posted more.
#426: Boq tells Pizza he's rescinding the weak scum read on dya.
I had no idea what post 426 meant when I read it and dismissed it as some kind of in joke that I didn't get.
So that's not a contradiction. I'm left with trying to decide whether the fairly weak day one interaction was scummy in itself (while taken at face value) and whether or not the constant shading thrown at me toDay means anything at all. I have a big issue with the post where he goes after me for shoving Visor into an early grave. He is townreading Hollowkatt and Ender both pretty hard right now, and they were the other two wagons that came up on day two. So why scum-shade me for pushing Visor in particular? I can only think of one potentially legitimate reason, and I haven't seen him say anything that would suggest he was thinking it at the time. Just the bare assertion that being assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is kind of easy for scum to shade somebody on.
My insomnia is kicking my ass again today but I'm going to try my hardest to at least get through the rest of the Dyachei spew before I have to lie down.
Boquise
You had one post yesterday where you shaded me for pushing Visor hard on day two. The other two wagons that day were people that you are townreading pretty hard right now. Tell me what makes you so suspicious about me pushing one townie wagon over a different one. What was in your head when you made that post.
Csargo @Hollowkat Renata
Don't respond to me without reading all my posts today please.
Ok. Trying to catch up at the moment.
Montmorency
Not going to respond on content until I get to the end but noticed confusion here:
#720: Dya immediately reacts to the above with "how did the thread react and what do you think about it?" [I don't understand what this means.] Boq says thread didn't react and discusses impressions of Kage, Logic, and Visor, concluding with light FoS on Kage. Logic finds this exchange scummy for dya in #736.
This is in regards to Boquise's bare vote on Kage. Boquise is questioned later (by someone I don't remember) on what he was doing there and claims it was to look for thread reactions. Dya then asked what he learned from that, basically. Boquise eventually points out a specific post from Kage he found scummy that prompted him to do this.
Boquise
You had one post yesterday where you shaded me for pushing Visor hard on day two. The other two wagons that day were people that you are townreading pretty hard right now. Tell me what makes you so suspicious about me pushing one townie wagon over a different one. What was in your head when you made that post.
You are putting more strength into my sus than there is with your "so suspicious". I have even written in the middle of my sus on you that I have you as town lean, as can be seen in the read list i wrote. Though you were only interested in responding to my solving with snark.
I remembered that you pushed Visor and that he responded eventually by scum reading you back. That made me question my "Renata is town because she is pushing me rn" and I began to fiddle with whether your push is town indicative and scum indicative. Because this is something I have a history of overlooking. Hence why I out my paranoia and work with it, despite having you as a town lean in the middle of this by looking at the votes. At that moment i went from my memory.
I feel like you're not really reading the posts i write that aren't directed towards you.
I had no idea what post 426 meant when I read it and dismissed it as some kind of in joke that I didn't get.
So that's not a contradiction. I'm left with trying to decide whether the fairly weak day one interaction was scummy in itself (while taken at face value) and whether or not the constant shading thrown at me toDay means anything at all. I have a big issue with the post where he goes after me for shoving Visor into an early grave. He is townreading Hollowkatt and Ender both pretty hard right now, and they were the other two wagons that came up on day two. So why scum-shade me for pushing Visor in particular? I can only think of one potentially legitimate reason, and I haven't seen him say anything that would suggest he was thinking it at the time. Just the bare assertion that being assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is kind of easy for scum to shade somebody on.
My insomnia is kicking my ass again today but I'm going to try my hardest to at least get through the rest of the Dyachei spew before I have to lie down.
I told you in a post today that it wasn't a contradiction and i even showed you the whole conversation in context.
You're over-repping my shade on you. You're making it sound like it is some mindless thing, like a tunnel, when it isn't. I have criticised you and I have been paranoid. I am still waiting for you to explain how I am being aggressive tbh. Or was it you taking a shot and now can't stand for it tbh?
The reasons to town read Ender and HK are correct. I don't understand why it matters that they were also wagons but you pushed another townie hard?
"Just the bare assertion that bring assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is easy for scum to shade somebody on". Like how it is easy to shade someone who's playstyle you have decided is illegitimate tbh
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 17:10
Amy wasn't a wagon when we all voted D1. Amy had one vote from Boq iirc.
yeah I'm aware, which is why I wanted to talk to boq about it which is why I said that.
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 17:11
Are you saying you think it's Boq/Renata ?
I don't think renata is a wolf and I'm leaning not wolf on boq as well.
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 17:12
I'm not following. I didn't say the dya wagon was pure, I said we have to take bussing into consideration (i.e. not pure). Just like, you know, Pizza spent 1000 words explaining in the quote.
They had 36 hours to adjust to the threadstate, which was increasingly anti-dya, with few alternatives put forward as serious votes. This is surely enough for bussing to be possible.
If you don't know who I suspect out of that list of names, you should reread my posts since D3.
Are you going to pursue forthright misunderstandings every day then?
At no point did I connect Amp's or Kage's alignment to their wagon position D3. If you'll recall, I did earlier highlight that they had each ended off-wagon on one of the prior days, so it was remarkable to see them both doing it.
As Pizza explained, and I agree, it doesn't have to be a bus situation, we just have no choice but to read it as one, particularly in the context of the D3 gamestate, which to repeat was much more restricted than that of early game. Therefore, voting dya D3 does not confer town-cred, unless you can find a single player who made the dya wagon happen above others. They, at least, get a pass, but not a clear. To my awareness there isn't anyone who fits that description, other than maybe ender.
So stop wasting time on hard-defending Day 3.
nothing you've written changes my mind
You are putting more strength into my sus than there is with your "so suspicious". I have even written in the middle of my sus on you that I have you as town lean, as can be seen in the read list i wrote. Though you were only interested in responding to my solving with snark.
I remembered that you pushed Visor and that he responded eventually by scum reading you back. That made me question my "Renata is town because she is pushing me rn" and I began to fiddle with whether your push is town indicative and scum indicative. Because this is something I have a history of overlooking. Hence why I out my paranoia and work with it, despite having you as a town lean in the middle of this by looking at the votes. At that moment i went from my memory.
I feel like you're not really reading the posts i write that aren't directed towards you.
It's true I don't read much of the X is not scum with Y but might be with Z stuff from someone I'm suspecting so hard. I can't read that kind of thing for alignment, so it's useless if I can't trust you. All it does if I do read it is make me paranoid about what worlds you might be trying to push. Like that's a big reason I was thinking about a you-Kage team for part of yesterday, because you keep talking about him as a necessary mislynch.
For the rest, half your iso since yesterday is concerned with shading me, and you're still sticking to me as a town lean like, why. I can't follow anything of your logic.
My reasoning around your push on me for pushing Visor was that it might make sense if it was because you were hard scumreading dyachei at the time and thought my constant noise about the other three was meant to detract from your read on dyachei. But that's not what you're claiming at all, either. You're saying it's exactly what I thought it was: pushing a town player into the grave as potentially scummy as a thing in and of itself. At least for that post.
I don't know what to do with you.
I told you in a post today that it wasn't a contradiction and i even showed you the whole conversation in context.
You're over-repping my shade on you. You're making it sound like it is some mindless thing, like a tunnel, when it isn't. I have criticised you and I have been paranoid. I am still waiting for you to explain how I am being aggressive tbh. Or was it you taking a shot and now can't stand for it tbh?
The reasons to town read Ender and HK are correct. I don't understand why it matters that they were also wagons but you pushed another townie hard?
"Just the bare assertion that bring assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is easy for scum to shade somebody on". Like how it is easy to shade someone who's playstyle you have decided is illegitimate tbh
Yeah, I had not read that post of yours at the time I wrote this one. I missed a bunch while reading through Dyachei's stuff.
I don't think renata is a wolf and I'm leaning not wolf on boq as well.
Who are you looking at right now. I know Monty is one even if I'm not wholly clear on your reasoning. Who's the other?
In #1183 dya makes potentially their most detailed post of the game, casing Vulgard town. Ladd is currently all-in on Vulgard being town, and expresses so around the same time as dya (to name one instance). May be worthwhile to look more closely into how players related to Ender, Vulgard, and Amy in particular, as Mafia appear to have adopted a calculated collective approach toward each of them, perhaps as part of a long-term plan to shape the consensus POE.
#1199: Renata asks dya to elaborate on their t-Vulgard case in the context of some Vulgard post. Dya delivers a hedgy Vulgard read in response. She then suddenly reverses outright and doesn't like Vulgard's posting anymore. "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much" right after presenting a wall concluding that Vulgard is town was a tell, the exact same tell as with ladd.]
^^^
This urges me toward hardclearing Renata, because this is clearly a slip by dya and it was the exact same flip-flop as wrt ladd later (in response to Visor's questions).
I'm only getting increasingly attached to a POE of Taffy-Boq. Most likely to be wrong about Amp. Kage remains a pure wildcard. I doubt this game can be solved without at least trusting HK and Renata, and probably YOLO with Csargo. Also keep in mind, Taffy-Boq-Kage-Amy would each fit into a separate category in ladd's big D2 reads post (#1579), with Csargo sharing a category with dyachei, who has flipped ofc.
Please read through the dya ISO for key interactions.
Thoughts on how Boq specifically fits in worlds: Mafia seemed to be coordinating on developing collective POE, and all of ladd-Boq-dya adopted strong, interactive, reads on Amy. Ladd quasi-tunneled Amy, dya constantly interacted with Amy in a mutually-buddying way, and Boq helped dya generate content (such as creating a team balance on Vulgard reads) while linking them to Amy. Alternatively, Amy could be doing an open-scum drag show (and there's no way Amy and dya would not have been aware of how many connections they were creating). I prefer the former scenario. Also, Boq had a lot of shallow mutually-supporting interactions with ladd (see ISO).
But there is some reason to treat them as anti-paired.
My teams for now (last two unordered):
Taffy-Boq
Taffy-Amp
Boq-Kage
Taffy-Kage
As I've laid out, there are good reasons to trust Csargo, HK, and Renata, great reasons to lock Ender, and I just flat-out refuse to believe Amp-Kage.
I think Taffy gets lynched today and then I hope I'm dead before LYLO.
I agree with this PoE for the most part.
vote: Taffy
Went back to Monty's comments on Taffy's 1321/1329 for sanity check since I had to stop yesterday at page 41 and I agree with Monty. That does look a hell of a lot like someone who's trying to piggyback off of two townies' positive reads of Dyachei in order to have a reason to move Dyachei up in her own assessment. Logic's case on Dya was better than anybody gave it credit for at the time given everything else that was happening, and Taffy as scum would have been self-conscious about needing to acknowledge that. Now that Cape and Vulgard have been reading Dyachei as solid town anyway, this strange reason for wanting to acknowledge them/ credit their read for changing their own mind (Vulgard)/ encourage the thread to given further reasons to read Dyachei as town (Cape) appears. Taffy could have argued with them on the basis of the Logic case that she said she agreed with, but didn't even acknowledge it. Instead saying only that Vulgard's post had somehow caused her to re-evaluate her potential Dyachei pairings, even though there's nothing obviously in that post that should cause someone to do that.
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 18:07
this makes me feel better about locking in Renata. I was getting a bit miffed because she was trying to bury Visor too and he reacted. And because in my last town game, a scum player did tunnel me through most parts of the game (which is rare). However I found him as scum and I found the town player who tunnelled me too, and Renata is closer in her approach to the town player than the scum player now gth.
i think people who havent played with me misunderstand my approach
on D1 i do casual reads and poke around, to develop reads. It is by D3 I can start solving by flips. My reads are generally weak. I solve through laying out the puzzle pieces and see what fits + adding in player psychology and my assumptions.
Do you have any other insights from the dyachei ISO or my commentary? Such as on Taffy's alignment, Amp's relationships...
nothing you've written changes my mind
Changes - your mind - on something you made up out of thin air. K, do you have any thoughts about the recorded actions of players in D1-2, or would you like to call again tomorrow? It's quite possible you endgame, so I need you to focus on the solve.
yeah I'm aware, which is why I wanted to talk to boq about it which is why I said that.
Okay. :bow:
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 20:17
Bear with me as I drop bombs.
What I missed of dya from the rest of D2:
*Dya plains their meta has changed to Visor and Renata
*Visor asks what they think of ladd and taffy (Visor has scum-cased ladd, taffy, dya, and HK, all of whom ladd will defend against Visor). They reply: "ladd is lean villager so is taffy. I think the way taffy's approaching the game is decent. I find myself nodding along with his posts." Visor presses on, and dya promises to look at taffy more later if Visor links posts. Dya comes up w/ "he has fewer posts than I remembered." Finally, they tell Visor:
ok i see what you mean, they don't really try to get anyone over to their viewpoint. But I think most of their reads are fine? I agree with many of them. Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either
i think their reads do show solving though. Just not hardcore solving. and they don't really try to push their viewpoints. If they were really convinced about a wolf read you'd think they would do more to push that viewpoint
ONCE AGAIN THIS IS SO LIKE WHAT HAPPENED WITH LADD. ON D2 VISOR PRESSURED DYA INTO FORGETTING OR WALKING BACK THEIR TRS OF BOTH LADD AND TAFFY. VISOR WHAT A LAD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blmiTe8wzAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYJ63OTMDL4
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 20:17
Anyway...
So Visor gets dya to name 4 SRs, these being Ender, HK, Renata, Visor.
I think renata is grasping at relatively little things and pushing them as bigger than they are
HK isn't really pushing his reads either. He's got a pretty small thread presence and I find that wolfy for him
like that one post from vulgard she found wolfy. She went on and on about it being so wolfy without considering other options at all
Visor asks about Kage and Csargo. Dya's reads:
i dont know kage at all so im not really sure. they dont have thread presence though
csargo seems like he's town
About Vulgard and Ender and Boq:
I'm really bad at reading ender but I think he's been pretty defensive this game. I also think that his reads aren't great (other than his hk wolf read)
vulgard I think I get to a certain degree and the only thing I haven't liked from him was that lie to get pizza off his back that Renata pointed out. I posted some posts from him earlier that I think show his towniness. I also think he was pizza's likely check
Struggling to walk the line between upholding the team's pro-Vulgard consensus, and appearing solvy and cooperative.
reads matter to me because I think people are pushing villagers a lot (like amy)
ender can be defensive as both alignments. I just think there's more of it than warranted currently
boq seems to be solving so I think he's probably town. like he's actually showing his thought process in the thread
Visor returns to a ladd-taffy team. He asks what dya's world with ender-vulgard-visor all cleared looks like, and it's Renata-HK-Kage-Taffy.
Their initial list was
Ender
HK
Renata
Visor
now
HK
Renata
Kage
Taffy
Just boxed into appeasing Visor, not for the last time.
Amy is not a lock, but is one of dya's top reads. Visor asks for a case, so dya tells him it's a tone read that can't be explained.
Taffy pops in to apologize for one of her own posts being scummy. Visor is not impressed and wonders why she has nothing to say about the game.
NOW is the part where dya asks about Visor's ladd read (while commenting that they didn't like Taffy's pop-in either). Visor delivers a thorough wall of a case.
Dya's response, as famously highlighted yesterday:
"yeah i think he hasn't spent enough time in the thread for me to get a good read on him"
Afterwards Dya demurres that "fwiw, I'd be up for an hk elim, too."
Trying to get attention off ladd and taffy and onto HK.
Renata has a dispute about one of her posts with dya and demands satisfaction. Dya basically ignores her.
Renata accuses dya of cooking up interactions to save Visor. Dya says "lol." Boq quotes their lol and adds a "hmm", immediately bare-voting Kage. Boq follows this up by hedging on Visor and calling dya's Vulgard and Ender reads shallow scumreads.
Ladd emerges to defend dya and dya votes HK and bugs out for EOD.
Boq says he trusts dya's lock reads, so Amy-dya must be paired.
amy is my biggest wolf read but I respect Dya's tone reads tbh. There are several examples where they have been correct and I have been wrong. Hence why I have decided that Dya and Amy are always the same alignment tbh
Montmorency
12-15-2022, 20:18
Let's summarize, zoom, enhance, all of that dya D2:
Dya produces a big wallpost town-reading Vulgard. IIRC they never treat another player this way.
Renata asks them about it, causing Dya to hedge on Vulgard to the point of saying "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much."
Visor asks dya about Taffy and they reply "gut says v", a generic no-detail read of the sort ladd gave dya when dya asked ladd for a read on them D1.
Taffy takes the opportunity of Vulgard TRing Taffy and Dya to proclaim a shift away from SRing dya (Taffy as of EOD1 had dya null).
Time passes.
Visor puts dya in the hotseat and grills them on just about every player. He asks first about ladd and Taffy as a scum team; dya leans both of them town without giving reasons. After some interrogation, dya winds up at "Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either."
"Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much."
"Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either."
The interrogation continues. Visor pushes dya on worlds where the top suspects of the day - Ender, Vulgard, Visor - are ruled out. Dya adds Taffy to their POE.
They pronounce an undescribable town tone read on Amy.
Taffy arrives to shade herself, which pings Visor. Dya tries to piggyback the criticism, but Visor doesn't care about the argument around mechanical reasoning, it's about Taffy not engaging with the thread in any way.
Dya still TLs ladd, asks Visor about his case.
Visor wallposts m-ladd.
Dya: "yeah i think he hasn't spent enough time in the thread for me to get a good read on him"
Dya: "fwiw, I'd be up for an hk elim, too"
Renata arrives to pressure dya. Dya ignores her, lols at her, votes HK, and dips.
vulgard ,all three of u me and ender are v
where are you looking to
who is suspect in this world to you
can you pelase talk to me about ladd and taffy?
OH OH VISOR, OH. WHAT'S THAT SOUND? CAN IT BE?
Visor Retroactively:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cZ7ndjhhps
Visor is better at this game than we all deserve. Better than I deserve, at least.
Visor is better at this game than we all deserve. Better than I deserve, at least.
:hail:
Totally not Taffy
12-15-2022, 21:17
Are you saying you think it's Boq/Renata ?
That's my current best guess. Will now start reading today.
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 22:05
Who are you looking at right now. I know Monty is one even if I'm not wholly clear on your reasoning. Who's the other?
my poe is monty, kage, taffy
I don't think the wolves handle Amy like they have. It's not a great reason to clear them but it's what I'm currently using. I think Dya went for the pocket and the way Amy talked about that after Dya flipped felt genuine to me.
I think csargo is off on his own island doing his own thing but it doesn't feel anti-town. Like if he's a wolf he's painting himself into some corners that'll be hard to come out of. Kage and Taffy are kinda black holes for me and I know I need to have a better opinion than "idk kill 'em or whatever". I'll work on that over night should it be necessary.
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 22:06
Do you have any other insights from the dyachei ISO or my commentary? Such as on Taffy's alignment, Amp's relationships...
Changes - your mind - on something you made up out of thin air. K, do you have any thoughts about the recorded actions of players in D1-2, or would you like to call again tomorrow? It's quite possible you endgame, so I need you to focus on the solve.
Fine, I'll put away my bias and read what you've dropped today with an open mind.
Do you have any other insights from the dyachei ISO or my commentary? Such as on Taffy's alignment, Amp's relationships...
Changes - your mind - on something you made up out of thin air. K, do you have any thoughts about the recorded actions of players in D1-2, or would you like to call again tomorrow? It's quite possible you endgame, so I need you to focus on the solve.
i am not sure why you completely remove amy and kage as a relationship, so you could elaborate there tbh!
yeah I'm aware, which is why I wanted to talk to boq about it which is why I said that.
sup
It's true I don't read much of the X is not scum with Y but might be with Z stuff from someone I'm suspecting so hard. I can't read that kind of thing for alignment, so it's useless if I can't trust you. All it does if I do read it is make me paranoid about what worlds you might be trying to push. Like that's a big reason I was thinking about a you-Kage team for part of yesterday, because you keep talking about him as a necessary mislynch.
For the rest, half your iso since yesterday is concerned with shading me, and you're still sticking to me as a town lean like, why. I can't follow anything of your logic.
My reasoning around your push on me for pushing Visor was that it might make sense if it was because you were hard scumreading dyachei at the time and thought my constant noise about the other three was meant to detract from your read on dyachei. But that's not what you're claiming at all, either. You're saying it's exactly what I thought it was: pushing a town player into the grave as potentially scummy as a thing in and of itself. At least for that post.
I don't know what to do with you.
lol so you dismiss 90% of my body of work and then say that all I do is shade you ok tbh
I have repeated three times iirc already how my thoughts have developed around your slot. I am sorry that I cannot produce an answer you like? My posts where I make the associations describe where my head is, is an open process with open cards, and makes it clear what worlds i am at. This makes it easy to follow my thought process and see if something comes up.
Sometimes scum decide to bury town, yes. Revolting tbh. I dont understand how a sudden "oh no visor did get pushed by renata and visor did push back and call her scum maybe i am misreading this trait again" as out of all realms of possibilities. You cherry-pick my posts, ignore my questions, ignore my thought process, and then you come here and complain about "idk what to do with me" and how unreadable I am making myself. I can guarantee that if you keep interacting with me but ignore my questions back to you and misrep my play I will get aggressive for real.
So it is better that you just ignore me. If you wanna mislynch me and then defend your tunnel, go ahead. Interacting with you is no longer giving me anything read-wise either way and will just clog down the thread tbh
i frankly cannot see a world with hk and ender as wolves based on things i have already said
i find it super unlikely that csargo is scum
i guess i could be wrong on kage but i still think ladd's treatment of him is weird if they are partners.
i feel 70% comfortable with my renata read and I find Monty's town case to be agreeable.
Monty is the one player who is townsiding today by the active solving and bringing up information from flipped wolves. I have however no tech to clear him atm.
Amy could maybe be cleared based on votes and how ladd treated her, and her "idk what to do lets vote boq" is akin to how Amy naturally reacts to stuff. Yet this feels weak because I have only Taffy left and I think there should be 4 wolves.
Taffy is tonally townie but the poe is the poe tbh.
I feel happy with my vote
my poe is monty, kage, taffy
I don't think the wolves handle Amy like they have. It's not a great reason to clear them but it's what I'm currently using. I think Dya went for the pocket and the way Amy talked about that after Dya flipped felt genuine to me.
I think csargo is off on his own island doing his own thing but it doesn't feel anti-town. Like if he's a wolf he's painting himself into some corners that'll be hard to come out of. Kage and Taffy are kinda black holes for me and I know I need to have a better opinion than "idk kill 'em or whatever". I'll work on that over night should it be necessary.
what are the corners csargo is painting himself into?
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 22:36
sup
sup it's this one:
So building on this:
I have previously unpaired Amy and Monty.
And in the post I am quoting, I am unpairing Amy with Renata (tho I know I have to resume reading the last 8 minutes so maybe I should shut up but no tbh).
That means, Amy can only be a wolf with Csargo, Taffy, HK, Kage.
Amy has tried to yeet Kage. Unpaired.
Csargo, Taffy, HK.
I am town reading HK pretty strongly.
Csargo, Taffy.
I think Csargo is town due to ladd and Dya already being on Ender. HOWEVER I can see why wolves would commit 3 wolves on 1 town wagon in hopes to save Amy, but that doesnt fit the timeline of votes (and Amy's wagon rising in votes). It also doesnt fit with occam's razors. Ladd and Dya are competent wolves. Idk who Csargo is, but he seems to be competent as a player. It is better to have at least 1 more wolf on the other town wagon (Logic). Otherwise wolves are boxed in. This makes Csargo also unlikely.
So based on process of elimination, if Amy is a wolf, she can only be with Taffy.
Which would make the wagons Town vs Scum vs Town. With 2 wolves on each town wagon.
Lets see what transpires in the last 8 minutes tbh
I'm wondering why three wolves would pile on to save Amy who's really not been any kind of impactful, didn't show signs of being impactful, and generally was already scraping "disassociated wolf" reads from others in the thread. I feel like that would be antithetical to smart wolf play there. If someone not really contributing is getting sussed exerting effort like that to save them runs the risk of outing the whole team, yeah?
If you already said something just point me at the post number
sup it's this one:
If you already said something just point me at the post number
i answered and wrote "Exactly"
because what you are saying is my point why i am clearing csargo tbh
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 23:01
i answered and wrote "Exactly"
because what you are saying is my point why i am clearing csargo tbh
cool thanks
do you think I'm wrong on Monty?
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:08
Migraine-y still but here to see for EOD.
Waiting to see if Taffy brings anything before death.
(Raskol pls give me updated vote-count when you can.)
Totally not Taffy
12-15-2022, 23:22
I don't think dya ever got established. their pushes were weak, they were thread disconnected, and they never brought any kind of case or thought to the thread that had any meat to it. That's what triggered me on dya in the first place, they were functionally the definition of milquetoast.
that being said I agree with ender and csargo here:
Wolves couldn't have expected vulgard to nuke Ladd. Nor could they have anticipated a dogpile on dya to end the day. I think, like ender and csargo do, that post ladd nuke wolves were scrambling to figure out what they could do. Do you think wolves were busing Dya and if so who are the wolves in this bucket: Taffy, HK, Boq, Renata, Ender?
Like first you call out Amy and Kage for being off wagon (while the taffy wagon was you and csargo) and now you are saying post ladd was a bus-like situation. I've got a bad feeling about you
vote: monty
The contradiction Monty pointed out in Dyachei's reads on Ladd was a very convincing argument for them being a wolf, and not something someone else was likely to point out yesterday. That's some heavy commitment to the bus there, when he could have put that energy into pushing me (or anybody else).
Migraine-y still but here to see for EOD.
Waiting to see if Taffy brings anything before death.
(Raskol pls give me updated vote-count when you can.)
Raskolnikov
I am too tired to think anymore. I wish I could do more, read more things, but it's not possible. Good luck everybody.
Totally not Taffy
12-15-2022, 23:24
Vote: Taffy
Sorry friend, but you have been wolfsiding.
Talk to me about your viewpoint please.
I believe Renata is a wolf. There's a chance Boquise is also a wolf, especially if I'm right about Renata - except that their posts today give me pause
renata, why is it that you are focusing on my low-hanging fruit posts and not the posts where i have answered your questions and critique tbh?
...as well as p2525 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053839234&viewfull=1#post2053839234), but otoh their exchanges could be some very good distancing, they sort of go from bouncing ideas off of each other to scumreading eachother back and forth.
I have residual tinfoil about you, because you've been paying me compliments this game and it's not what you usually do as either alignment - in fact, fmpov it always looks like you have a rather low opinion of me as a player, so it all reads like
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a8/14/09/a81409d11034b93b32b454ab7b0c8af6.jpg
Other than that it no longer matters - either I'm right and hopefully Renata flips wolf today or I endorse getting rid of me before LyLo.
Kage I need a read on.
Can people gimme thoughts on Kage?
Wolves at this point of the game shouldn't have such low investment. It's not solid evidence obviously but he doesn't fit with what a wolf should look like atm, and he very much fits as a delectable misyeet.
Totally not Taffy
12-15-2022, 23:26
Taffy, read my explanation. I messed up. If you're a wolf it's not because of day one. I haven't been able to look at day two yet. Consider voting Boquise with me.
I actually have no idea what the current votecount is, and I have 1,5 page to go.
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:31
in fact, fmpov it always looks like you have a rather low opinion of me as a player, so it all reads like
Okay, I will say this:
This is just wrong.
I consider you to be one of the more thoughtful players I play with, and I've been trying harder to read you better because I've misyeeted you way too many times as town.
I do think you're overly paranoid of me but also like, I kinda understand that after what you've seen me do =P
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:36
(Feel free to ask me after the game and I'll say the same thing. I definitely like seeing you sign up to games I'm in ^^)
Totally not Taffy
12-15-2022, 23:38
Okay, I will say this:
This is just wrong.
I consider you to be one of the more thoughtful players I play with, and I've been trying harder to read you better because I've misyeeted you way too many times as town.
I do think you're overly paranoid of me but also like, I kinda understand that after what you've seen me do =P
It's an unbelievably awful read to make on my part. If you're town then I'm an ungrateful asshole, or you're a wolf and it's correct which is just sad. Either way I lose.
hollowkatt
12-15-2022, 23:42
The contradiction Monty pointed out in Dyachei's reads on Ladd was a very convincing argument for them being a wolf, and not something someone else was likely to point out yesterday. That's some heavy commitment to the bus there, when he could have put that energy into pushing me (or anybody else).
hai taffy thanks that makes sense
got a solve?
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:43
I'm probably changing off Taffy.
I've been forcing some rereading through the pain and I am reminded why I had them town in the first place.
Thinking.
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:44
It's an unbelievably awful read to make on my part. If you're town then I'm an ungrateful asshole, or you're a wolf and it's correct which is just sad. Either way I lose.
It's not that bad of a read friend.
I have explicitly been trying to bolster you because I see you not believe in yourself a lot, so you're not wrong that I've been talking you up more.
Talk about your solve though, I wanna be sure I'm right if I swap off you and want your thoughts on my page.
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:49
Vote: Renata
Not 100% my vote, just still ruminating
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:50
Tell me about Dyachei because until you said this I thinking she fit into many possible scumteams.
This post specifically on D2 feels like not something a scum-mate would point out when someone very POE at the time said Dya was town.
EnderWiggin
12-15-2022, 23:51
What is Dyachei like as a wolf that you're not seeing here?
And this, though this was at Cape.
Totally not Taffy
12-15-2022, 23:57
It's not that bad of a read friend.
I have explicitly been trying to bolster you because I see you not believe in yourself a lot, so you're not wrong that I've been talking you up more.
Talk about your solve though, I wanna be sure I'm right if I swap off you and want your thoughts on my page.
Currently working my way through Monty's wall. I first started suspecting Renata yesterday for this:
Askthepizzaguy I think Boquise is town. Logic is either town or being hard bussed right now. Why has Renata not posted yet?
Those are my only other relevant thoughts rn.
I find this post important.
I'm not sure what alignment it points taffy towards, but I strongly think this will be clearing or damning in the future
This amuses me. In the linked post was shade on me (drawing attention to the fact I hadn't posted yet) and a bare town read on Boquise.
Do with that what you will.
I've nested my original post that Logic is replying to. To look at that, and leave out the parts that specifically are about him and that he's probably responding to, seems like it was done deliberately to shade me.
There's some more stuff later that EoD that convinced me she hadn't actually read my D1 iso and was just looking for ways to make me look bad. Like, I only made 24 posts, and 8 of those were talking either to or about Logic. I went back and forth on my read on him, it's very untrue to say
Vote: Logic
three-way tie
Wait, WHAT?
Taffy's one and only post having to do with Logic's actual alignment is that he looks like a towny. What is this and why. Please answer.
Also never at least to this point answered a very very good question from Logic about who, if he's being bussed (as Taffy suggested was one of the options, with the other being that he is just town), are his partners. Can't exactly go back and demand a response on that one at this point, just noted.[/QUOTE]
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 00:00
Ah I broke the quote.
Wait, WHAT?
Taffy's one and only post having to do with Logic's actual alignment is that he looks like a towny. What is this and why. Please answer.
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:02
what happens when your poe is posting townie asking for a friend
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:10
Oh shit no wait Taffy is probably 100% town and I've been an idiot. I straight up call out how Dya's read on Taffy is different to their townread on Ladd and that's part of how I built the case on Dya after Ladd's flip.
That should never be w/w/w unless I'm an idiot.
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:16
Oh shit no wait Taffy is probably 100% town and I've been an idiot. I straight up call out how Dya's read on Taffy is different to their townread on Ladd and that's part of how I built the case on Dya after Ladd's flip.
That should never be w/w/w unless I'm an idiot.
I'm inclined to agree, especially in light of 2654 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053839389&viewfull=1#post2053839389) which kinda shoots a large hole in Renatas case on Taffy.
If true I'm here:
HK
Ender
Taffy
Boq
Csargo
which leaves
Monty
Renata
Kage
Amy
but I town read Renata tonally and outside of the Taffy interaction they've been pretty townie but what they're accusing Taffy of doesn't jibe with what appears to be reality. And if I move Monty to town off of the work he's doing and generally speaking agree with the way he's clearing people (and I do think he's making his life harder as wolf than needs be and while he could have shifted into power wolf after losing ladd and dya I don't associate that with his overall body of work) then I'm left with Kage/Amy and tbh a wolf team of Ladd/Dya/Kage/Amy is a team that literally never wins this game and mafia is never this easy... halp
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:17
unvote
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:19
You may be thinking - if Taffy is scum, who is the partner? Isn't Boq so active, would he really bus? Maybe it's those turbo-slanking, Csargo-voting wackadoos, Kage and Amp. But remember, if Taffy is scum there's only one partner left.
i am not sure why you completely remove amy and kage as a relationship, so you could elaborate there tbh!
Because it's the least elegant and silliest possible pairing in concept.
Because from thread behavior we have to believe that Kage-Amp, POEed players, showed up for 2 posts of D4 in order to place barely-reasoned votes onto Csargo.
I've made no secret of my theory that your D1-2 shows you, dya, and ladd working together in a coordinated fashion in a way that isn't evident for other groupings of players, for example. I can't, at this point, fit Kage-Amp into that pattern.
Maybe it's bias, but someone should try to make a case off available data for Kage-Amp as a pairing. I'd like to see it.
i answered and wrote "Exactly"
because what you are saying is my point why i am clearing csargo tbh
And once again, I made this point first!
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:19
Why do you clear Boq HK?
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:23
Vote: Renata
Not 100% my vote, just still ruminating
Renata has a lot of actions unpairing with or antagonistic with both dya and ladd, whereas taffy has the opposite. Renata is not a good alternative.
Have you checked through the taffy subsections in my ladd and dyachei ISOs, or the posts last page with videos embedded?
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:29
Csargo (2): Amy, Kage
Taffy (4): Monty, Csargo, Boq, Renata
Renata (2): Taffy, Ender
Unvoted: HK
I made a votecount for today because I don't know what the votes are and we got 30m
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:29
Whether as ultimate potato townies or ultimate slanker Mafia, kage-Amp will probably doom us at the rate we're going.
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:33
Renata has a lot of actions unpairing with or antagonistic with both dya and ladd, whereas taffy has the opposite. Renata is not a good alternative.
Have you checked through the taffy subsections in my ladd and dyachei ISOs, or the posts last page with videos embedded?
I haven't properly read the ISOs I thought I had less time than I do.
Also do you really think a wolf like Ladd has NONE of the wolves in his susses?
I can tell you when I last played with him he had them spread around and in the 4man team we had he had one in his suss pile. (That was me iirc)
You were even in that game when Katze carried us.
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:33
Whether as ultimate potato townies or ultimate slanker Mafia, kage-Amp will probably doom us at the rate we're going.
I think 1/2 is wolf but tbh I'm not sure which lmao.
Askthepizzaguy I think Boquise is town. Logic is either town or being hard bussed right now. Why has Renata not posted yet?
Those are my only other relevant thoughts rn.
I have a dislike of going with consensus especially D1 because it often lands on town and it provides easy cover for wolves. If we're all throwing a lot of reads/observations around, then they are forced to do so as well and the D5 conversation can be better than "you voted Logic - well so did you - yes but my reasons were more genuine than your reasons".
At the start of the game I felt like Logic was trying too hard to fit in with the "whoo let's do all the wolf tells" game that was going. Post #133 specifically gave me that impression, and I think others thought the same because the flow of the thread suddenly came to a halt at that time until Cape obliviously broke the silence. Logic's early reads list contained nothing surprising so I don't know why he felt the need to make it at that time. However, he has since posted very much like I'd expect a town in his position to post. I have never played with Logic before, nor read any of his games, so I don't know how good a wolf he is.
Are there other players in this game who you think should know about Visor being good at reading you?
Ender saying Logic in full wolf meta This is what I was referring to when I said Logic is either town or being bussed. And it would make sense in a game with a lot of strong town that if one of your team gets caught in an unfortunate start that you'd rather let them go and try to get some towncred than that you'd risk losing two members.
All Logic related quotes I saw
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:35
Why do you clear Boq HK?
I'm finding it easy to follow along with the way he's approaching the game. That's a big part of it. Like he's not saying things that are wildly unpossible or making pushes that are weird. I like the work he's doing to unpair people, specifically in post 2539 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053839248&viewfull=1#post2053839248).
boq doesn't appear to be advancing a solve per se he's more interested in providing an anti-solve as in people who can't be paired with the flipped wolves. I favorably read that kind of play and it's not something that people widely associate me with so I'm unconcerned about it being a pocket.
I like how he's feisty today and feel like that's born of genuine irritation not faked. I came away from our real time interaction with a town read and it's basically held course since then.
I really like this:
in hindsight dya was a wolf being caught for the wrong reasons tbh.
and really really like this
This whole conversation feels like the two of you got together in wolf chat and decided to stage a push on somebody to save Visor's butt from getting crisped.
lol
i dont think you really believe that
also who the fuck would actually do that
mmh yeah this seems unpairy with renata tbh
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:35
Vote: Csargo
Buttons.
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 00:36
DYACHEI ASSOCIATIONS (D1-D2.5)
#720: Dya immediately reacts to the above with "how did the thread react and what do you think about it?" [I don't understand what this means.] Boq says thread didn't react and discusses impressions of Kage, Logic, and Visor, concluding with light FoS on Kage. Logic finds this exchange scummy for dya in #736.
Dyachei was repeating a phrase Boquise used, he had explained that he had made a particular read or statement to see how the thread would react and they were following up on that. I need to think about if he works as a partner.
Amy - it is a lot of posting to spend on Amy compared to others, maybe Boquise does have a point. Otoh if they play with each other regularly it can be explained as "this is the town I need to get on my side early".
Csargo - I don't think he is partnered with Dyachei
HK - I disagree with Asks, I think it's more likely Dyachei meant to push HK than that they're partnered imo
Kagemusha - A strategy where all three partners push Ender seems unnecessarily risky unless it's distancing and I find this an unlikely team
Renata - yeah I hate this section because it makes me think I'm wrong about RenataA
Taffy - what is piggybacking and why is it wrong to ask Vulgard about an unexplained townread on a player I'm interested in?
Someone remind me to ask Asks what "hurdling" is.
Of living players, Boq has potentially-performative exchanges with Amp and Boq. If either are AI, I think it's with Boq to a small-to-moderate extent.
That first Boq needs to be Dyachei, right?
Your part 2 post I agree that it's more likely that Amy was being set up. The interactions with Dyachei are much more intense than I remember Amy's interactions with others being and that just seems risky in case Amy flips first.
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:38
Whether as ultimate potato townies or ultimate slanker Mafia, kage-Amp will probably doom us at the rate we're going.
how many wolves do you think are left and do you think we can just rail the POE and win?
Vote: Csargo
Buttons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-JRdRXiNv4
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:44
I'm doing the "Cycle wolf reads" thing that usually means I'm misclearing a wolf and Csargo seems like an option.
Think Taffy is town now tho.
Could be wrong, don't think I am.
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-JRdRXiNv4
The most excited reaction to being voted I've ever seen lmao.
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 00:47
what happens when your poe is posting townie asking for a friend
Some of them are very clever wolves and some of your townclears are wrong ~;)
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:47
I haven't properly read the ISOs I thought I had less time than I do.
Also do you really think a wolf like Ladd has NONE of the wolves in his susses?
I can tell you when I last played with him he had them spread around and in the 4man team we had he had one in his suss pile. (That was me iirc)
You were even in that game when Katze carried us.
By the same token, were none of his partners in hard TRs? Taffy could by any means be partnered with Amp or Kage.
There's not a lot of content today. If you haven't read through the stuff I found on taffy then I don't know how we communicate.
And now there's 10 minutes. *sigh*
Taffy - what is piggybacking and why is it wrong to ask Vulgard about an unexplained townread on a player I'm interested in?
Someone remind me to ask Asks what "hurdling" is.
Vulgard said "Taffy town, dya town." You replied to this saying that until you read this post, you had dya scum in many worlds.
Hurdling was doing the bare minimum, treating interactions with townies as challenge to get past. IIRC.
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:49
how many wolves do you think are left and do you think we can just rail the POE and win?
Not sure why there wouldn't be 4.
If you're not going to vote Taffy at least vote Amp or something.
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:50
Some of them are very clever wolves and some of your townclears are wrong ~;)
that's my concern yes
The most excited reaction to being voted I've ever seen lmao.
My brain hurts tbh
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:52
My brain hurts tbh
Ever feel like committing self-righteous suicide?
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:52
Not sure why there wouldn't be 4.
If you're not going to vote Taffy at least vote Amp or something.
I would rather not go Taffy today I'm kinda buying Enders "omg taffy is town" realization
why not vote: kage mostly b/c I'm thinking a team of ladd/dya/amy/x doesn't play D1/D2 like they did
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:53
By the same token, were none of his partners in hard TRs? Taffy could by any means be partnered with Amp or Kage.
There's not a lot of content today. If you haven't read through the stuff I found on taffy then I don't know how we communicate.
And now there's 10 minutes. *sigh*
Had a bad migraine yesterday and woke up today and joined thread when I thought I had like an hour to go. I've just read the ISOs stuff and see some of what you're talking about, I just do think there are legit reasons to also townread Taffy.
I do like your notes on HK interactions and I think after I die he's probably the clearest town.
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 00:53
Vulgard said "Taffy town, dya town." You replied to this saying that until you read this post, you had dya scum in many worlds.
Hurdling was doing the bare minimum, treating interactions with townies as challenge to get past. IIRC.
Indeed. I townread Vulgard. He says the player I'm interested in is a different alignment than what I'm leaning. Hence, I want to hear more about why to see if it sways me. You and HK both told me Ender was town yesterday so I stifled my tinfoil and looked somewhere else. Sometimes you just have to trust that people don't say things without a reason.
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 00:56
Ender, HK, I am very confident that unless you and Renata and Csargo towncore each other, Town very likely for the loss. Can you get there?
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 00:57
Ender, HK, I am very confident that unless you and Renata and Csargo towncore each other, Town very likely for the loss. Can you get there?
I'm mostly there already
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 00:58
Ender, HK, I am very confident that unless you and Renata and Csargo towncore each other, Town very likely for the loss. Can you get there?
I was there but I'm 90% sure I'm towning a wolf which is why I'm poking back there.
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 00:59
I'm not self-preserving on Csargo I don't think it's him.
Vote: Taffy
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 00:59
GL GL
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 01:00
I can't do any more at the last minute like this. Taffy wagon is what, 4 votes?
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 01:00
o7 Taffy
I was right lmao.
hollowkatt
12-16-2022, 01:03
I'm not self-preserving on Csargo I don't think it's him.
Vote: Taffy
would rather you'd voted literally anywhere else but godspeed o7
Totally not Taffy
12-16-2022, 01:05
would rather you'd voted literally anywhere else but godspeed o7
Sometimes you have to get out of the way so town can solve better imo
Montmorency
12-16-2022, 01:06
That's what Rask gets for not being around. :sleepy:
EnderWiggin
12-16-2022, 01:10
We should all just agree not to post and let Raskol get here in his own time.
Raskolnikov
12-16-2022, 02:06
Taffy (5): Monty, Csargo, Boquise, Renata, Taffy
Csargo (3): Amy, Kagemusha, Ender
Renata (1): Taffy
Kagemusha (1): HK
Day 4 has ended at 7PM est.
Raskolnikov
12-16-2022, 02:08
Totally not Taffy has been chopped! She was vanilla town!
Start of day 5 in roughly 23 hours. (7 PM EST)
Renata has been killed! She was vanilla town.
Day ends in 48 hours at 7pm EST on the 18th.
Csargo hollowkatt Montmorency Ampharos (Amy) EnderWiggin Boquise Kagemusha
(I'm helping raskol out with flips, you're free to post/play etc.)
Montmorency
12-17-2022, 01:23
So my grand theory was wrong, as they usually are. That's no less upsetting for its familiarity. It turns out that
"Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much."
"Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either."
was in fact assimilating style to the alignment of the subject, and dya's differential treatment of Taffy vis-a-vis Vulgard compared to Taffy vis-a-vis ladd was not the most decisive factor.
I hope you at least pants dya in the future with this powerful bit of meta under your belts.
Renata was the Most Dangerous Kill, so that really sucks. But whatever. I'm not going to produce any new work today, and I'm unavailable for the second half of the day.
I still think it's Boq, but you might as well go after Amy with any eye on whatever information that flip will provide on the former.
https://i.imgur.com/z6x9JBy.png
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 02:09
oof that was a clusterfuck
I don't think ender had tmi on taffy I think that conclusion was arrived at organically.
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 02:10
So my grand theory was wrong, as they usually are. That's no less upsetting for its familiarity. It turns out that
"Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much."
"Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either."
was in fact assimilating style to the alignment of the subject, and dya's differential treatment of Taffy vis-a-vis Vulgard compared to Taffy vis-a-vis ladd was not the most decisive factor.
I hope you at least pants dya in the future with this powerful bit of meta under your belts.
Renata was the Most Dangerous Kill, so that really sucks. But whatever. I'm not going to produce any new work today, and I'm unavailable for the second half of the day.
I still think it's Boq, but you might as well go after Amy with any eye on whatever information that flip will provide on the former.
https://i.imgur.com/z6x9JBy.png
who do you think kills renata and why did they kill renata over say... you?
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 04:25
HK have you iso'd Monty?
not recently no but I'm strongly wondering why someone dumping so much work into the thread isn't dead when renata, who was a potential wagon, is. And I have to answer that with "monty is either dead wrong or is a wolf"
That's like me asking why you or ender are alive. The two people who are the most anti-aligned to the flipped wolves.
who the :daisy: knows tbh
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 04:58
That's like me asking why you or ender are alive. The two people who are the most anti-aligned to the flipped wolves.
It's really not though. Have ender and I done work? yeah. have we done the same level/type of work monty is doing? no, no we haven't.
he's the only one doing deep dives, pulling quotes, writing full thoughts on everyone every day. So why kill renata over him when renata could have been a wagon today.
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 04:59
Sorry I'm just annoyed.
why are you annoyed, what's going on?
I have no idea how to deal with kage/amy mostly
It's really not though. Have ender and I done work? yeah. have we done the same level/type of work monty is doing? no, no we haven't.
he's the only one doing deep dives, pulling quotes, writing full thoughts on everyone every day. So why kill renata over him when renata could have been a wagon today.
Yeah, but that's largely centered around ladd/dya associations/interactions, which is over now? Unless monty didn't get through it all I don't remember. Maybe you're just right I have no idea
Vote:kage
I won't be around tomorrow.
Montmorency
12-17-2022, 06:03
not recently no but I'm strongly wondering why someone dumping so much work into the thread isn't dead when renata, who was a potential wagon, is. And I have to answer that with "monty is either dead wrong or is a wolf"
Renata and I both suspect Boq, and IIRC both harbor some suspicion of Amp while generally POEing Kage. Is that incorrect?
Renata was genuinely an unlikely wagon however. Likeliest D5 wagons in order from EOD:
*Kage
*Amy
*Boq
*Csargo
*Monty
*HK
*Renata
*Ender
Montmorency
12-17-2022, 06:23
My teams for now (last two unordered):
Taffy-Boq
Taffy-Amp
Boq-Kage
Taffy-Kage
I think Taffy gets lynched today and then I hope I'm dead before LYLO.
I agree with this PoE for the most part.
vote: Taffy
Definitely a take in danger of confbias, but I reserved most of my post-aggression for Taffy, even back into D3, while Renata's posting was oriented more toward pressuring Boq (such as in asking Taffy to vote Boq with her).
Renata on Kage:
Ok that was weird. It wasn't letting me post.
I was trying to write that all else being equal I want to lynch Kage. I haven't done a shred of work overnight however.
At the same time,
Boquise, Monty, Csargo, Taffy, Kage, Hollowkatt, Ender
I have, or have had at some point in the game, fairly confident town reads on everybody here except for Kage.
Wondering if this is almost too disconnected from anything else going on to be mafia. [Re: Kage]
I just don't know.
General leans:
Up to page 40, think that's as far as I'm getting. Impressions so far --
Csargo and Hollowkatt look by far the best and are probably town and should be listened to.
Boquise looks by far the worst.
Amy's in this weird place where their tones in both direction read pure; I just don't like where Dyachei slotted her in one of their reads lists, it's like primo w/w slot (light town with two villagers).
Monty, Kage, Ender, Taffy - nothing remotely indicative of alignment in relation to Dyachei, or literally no interactions at all.
But she might have been the most active midgame player other than me, pound for pound.
I've definitely been hoping to eat it lately. Vulgard I understand, even if his kill disappoints me. But if there is any particular advantage to killing Renata over me, it's hard to discern.
Again with the confbias, but it could be that if I am less aggressive (on paper) against Boq, and Renata more, and Taffy ML costs me clout, then Renata is more immediately dangerous to scum than I am today, even if Boq was supposed to be next on my POE. First half or more of D4 was substantially Renata pressuring Boq, and she did vote Boq before voting Taffy. Also, Boq kept trying to find reasons to TR Renata despite - from their POV - the uinwarranted suspicion and pressure.
Montmorency
12-17-2022, 06:32
Renata posts from early D4 that weren't representative of where she was generally but might as well highlight:
Trying to go through Dyachei's iso, distracted by Csargo being wolfy. This is a response to Pizza about Pizza's push on Ender over Ender's Logic case.
"liked", "passive", "wrong", "bad", "fine"
This follows a post about Logic that used "weird" "odd" and "meh" to sum up to a "negative" opinion.
It's the same thing as he did in his case on me the other day, aside from trying to link me to wolf!Ender. Lots and lots of shade (and somewhat contradictory in Ender's case), no commitment. This is why I had Csargo in my PoE early day two.
Anyway, back to Dyachei.
I currently have tinfoil on [Ender] if Csargo flips wolf and you don't die. But probably both of those would have to be true.
Forgive me, I did say it was tinfoil. Still weirded out by Csargo trying to make me out to be scum with you while you were still under suspicion, which doesn't make much sense as a wolf's push if you are town.
The problem with [Csargo] posts on day one? They're kinda trash. They don't really say anything. A mild negative on Logic without any real details (which *fine*, it's day one), and the response to Pizza on Ender says less than nothing too (which is more of a problem because it was a lot of words to say so little).
I had you in PoE on my first day two reads list because of these posts, pretty sure I did write it down. Then by the time I would have gotten round to doing anything about it I thought you were posting much better.
Day three vote was because of your case on me, which again relied *heavily* (aside from the Ender bit) on stuff that's weird, with absolutely nothing said about why "weird" is scummy.
It's not good. It is very very questionable and if you are town and posting like this, please don't.
More representative:
Yeah I think so too.
I got through the first 25 pages which is as much as I'm going to be able to do tonight.
So far I have interactions with (living players only) Csargo, Amy, Boquise, Ender, Monty.
Boquise stands out as the most sketchy, with a light scumread for decent reason that's retracted for a really weak reason. She winds up fourth on his town list after that (second on the "leans town" list, which is Visor, Dyachei, HK, luvs). It feels pretty bad.
Csargo looks great to me on the other hand in a spew sense. Chucks in a (Visor and) dyachei can be yeeted if Logic is town comment referencing one of Dyachei's posts that vaguely references Logic. Then he turns around and makes it clear that at the moment he's reading both Visor and Dyachei as town, and Logic as scum. It's weird in a good way.
Amy's interactions with Dyachei feel pure, with the only real yikes being a dyachei list of light villa reads that includes two dead townies and Amy.
Ender there's very little, one unfocused question from Dyachei to Ender, one response. Null read.
Monty's just a single comment from Dyachei that she didn't even notice he was in the game. Probably null too.
Vote: Boquise for now.
If the clear on Csargo is somehow wrong, the partner is very likely either Amy or Kage (both voting him D4).
If Amy flips red it looks at least somewhat good for Boq, and the converse bad.
Vote: Amp over Kage still my POE, but you're encouraged to ISO both and present a case vis-a-vis anyone you think matters. Please do so within 24 hours.
I still firmly believe that HK and Ender are town tbh. I will die on this hill.
I still dont think wolves put 3 wolves on a wagon so I still feel like Csargo should be a clear.
I still think ladd handled Kage in an unpartnery way.
I still think Monty is townie. Based on poe, I would have to push him now but thats close to my reason to vote Taffy and that was wrong. So I am not going to push Monty today.
It leaves Amy. But considering the amount of players, I still think that there are 2 wolves. So I am wrong somewhere.
We are at a 5 vs 2 situation if there are two wolves.
Misyeet here and we are 4 vs 2. 3 vs 2 in the next day, as in lylo. Unless I get misyeeted today, I will be alive for the lylo because I am never getting NK'd.
It is the weekend. I have a few chores to do but will read and try to reform my world view tbh
Also if Amy flips red, then Renata, Monty and Taffy owes me praise tbh
if monty is town, i think the reason he did not get offed over renata is because a renata kill paints me in a more negative light. I assume that scum's misyeet order has me on the top of the list today tbh
Actually Monty town clearing Renata yesterday when she could potentially be shaded makes him pretty clearly townie, especially since she was the kill last night (so as a wolf i dont think he would bother trying to pocket her tbh)
Raskolnikov
12-17-2022, 18:01
Kagemusha (1): Csargo
Amy (1): Monty
tx Visor for posting the flip.
EOD in 31 hours.
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 18:09
I like boqs posting on this page
hollowkatt
12-17-2022, 18:17
Kagemusha (1): Csargo
Amy (1): Monty
tx Visor for posting the flip.
EOD in 31 hours.
you DO exist
considering a lot of talk yesterday was centred around me, taffy and renata, and me knowing that all those three are town, i assume scum felt comfortable and lazy with the game state.
Vote Ampharos
Ampharos
12-17-2022, 20:26
yeah so i left town for holiday stuff and wont be back till after eod
i am going to be literally unable to contribute today sry
wont be offended if i die here
i just realised
Dya kinda never commented on me pairing them with Amy. Like never.
Only Amy commented on it, being kinda "nah this aint a good reason dya could do this either way" trying to dissuade me from this read.
That does sound partnered tbh. One not wanting to comment because that could create spew (Dya did stop posting when it was clear they were gonna get over so seems to be a part of their modus operandi this game) and Amy kinda panicked about it during the early parts of the game but has then not commented on it. During the early parts of the game, the players took an interest and validated my reasoning - thats scary. But yesterday, I was getting scrutinised and criticised for the pairing (even having players complain that I brought it up a few times (even tho me bringing it up was almost always because someone else asked me)) - that's not scary. That's not a threat.
Maybe I am seeing connections here but I am really feeling it tbh
yeah so i left town for holiday stuff and wont be back till after eod
i am going to be literally unable to contribute today sry
wont be offended if i die here
i am doing my best to resist having this as a town perspective
I like boqs posting on this page
Why do you like it?
@hollowkat could you tell me why i was townie for boxing myself in during like d1/d2?
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 01:07
Why do you like it?
I have to have reasons?
ugh fine
ok, so you lay out a world view that can be held accountable. I don't like that you're defaulting to Amy but I understand how you are getting there. I like how you're concerned that you've mistakenly cleared someone and that you're on the record with wanting to re-evaluate that. If you don't we kill you yeah?
if monty is town, i think the reason he did not get offed over renata is because a renata kill paints me in a more negative light. I assume that scum's misyeet order has me on the top of the list today tbh
This feels like something town says in this situation more often than a wolf does.
Actually Monty town clearing Renata yesterday when she could potentially be shaded makes him pretty clearly townie, especially since she was the kill last night (so as a wolf i dont think he would bother trying to pocket her tbh)
I also like this conclusion
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 01:14
@hollowkat could you tell me why i was townie for boxing myself in during like d1/d2?
yeah sure. it has been my experience that wolves do not like to box themselves into anything that early. Like ok I believe that threads have memory outside of the players in the game and what I mean by that is even if you've moved away from a suspicion on a person, if that person achieved a certain wagon level that suspicion never actually leaves the thread. Obvs the longer the game goes on the more likely it is that players stop bringing it up but say you Boq have a 4 player wagon during the early parts of D1. Later in the game day even if you're sitting on 1 or zero votes it's very easy for the thread to revisit that wagon because it remembers.
So moving further with that line of thinking if you box yourself in early with a specific world view that has far more potential to backfire for a wolf than it does town. Town can post themselves out of a boxed in position better than wolves can because town can genuinely say "wow I was super wrong" and their tone and behavior legit reflect that change of belief, but the wolf is always "lying" there regardless of what the early world view espoused.
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 01:54
I'm confident in my ender read. I also think Boq is town. Monty I think is also town. I'm confident enough in those three that I'm not re-evaluating them today. That's a job for tomorrow HK if I'm alive.
That leaves csargo, amy, and kage. Of those three the easiest wagon is Amy. I want to avoid taking easy wagons unless they're just the right wagon and I still find it hard to believe a team of Ladd/Dya/Amy/X plays the early game the way they did.
Kage is the most enigmatic I think. I know they're sus on me, or were, for several days but other than that I have no idea where they stand.
Csargo is going to be the one with the most thread presence to be reading, but do they pair with ladd and dya in meaningful ways.
We have time, lets use it wisely and get people on the record.
Csargo Kagemusha Ampharos can you provide something in the way of a solve so that we know where you're at? Doesn't need to be super fleshed out, names are fine and I can ask about those names when I get them.
Montmorency
12-18-2022, 02:31
yeah so i left town for holiday stuff and wont be back till after eod
i am going to be literally unable to contribute today sry
wont be offended if i die here
:uhoh2:
Ender, Csargo, HK, please decide between Amp and Kage and give me a consensus of 3 votes between us. I have a few hours left for today. If it's not Amy, then it's either Kage-Boq or Kage-Csargo (Boq-Csargo is a defeat at this point). I've shown reasons to TR Amp and Csargo over the others via association and anti-pair analysis, but you decide.
It sure would be nice to have the ultimate sillypants rand of dya/ladd/amy/kage and wrap it up, but that's always felt fantastical.
Kagemusha
12-18-2022, 03:41
hollowkatt
Looking at yesterday. Little has changed, but Taffy was killed whom i had in the town side of things.I am ready to put Monty into the town based on the effort he made yesterday, which seems legit, while his conclusions were wrong.
Town
Ender, HK
townish
Boque, Monty
neutral
Amy
scummish
Csargo
My vote is the same as yesterday. Csargo is flying under the radar. Leaving reasoning for his votes to other people, like Monty yesterday. You should look at him closer and draw the right conclusions. Vote: Csargo
Montmorency
12-18-2022, 04:16
Homie, you know you've gotta make a case if you want any votes on Csargo today.
See y'all D6 then.
EnderWiggin
12-18-2022, 04:37
I am actually really frustrated I let Taffy go over after noting the difference in how Dya treated Ladd.
I am sick but will be around and try to solve at some point in next 12 hours
I'm confident in my ender read. I also think Boq is town. Monty I think is also town. I'm confident enough in those three that I'm not re-evaluating them today. That's a job for tomorrow HK if I'm alive.
That leaves csargo, amy, and kage. Of those three the easiest wagon is Amy. I want to avoid taking easy wagons unless they're just the right wagon and I still find it hard to believe a team of Ladd/Dya/Amy/X plays the early game the way they did.
Kage is the most enigmatic I think. I know they're sus on me, or were, for several days but other than that I have no idea where they stand.
Csargo is going to be the one with the most thread presence to be reading, but do they pair with ladd and dya in meaningful ways.
We have time, lets use it wisely and get people on the record.
Csargo Kagemusha Ampharos can you provide something in the way of a solve so that we know where you're at? Doesn't need to be super fleshed out, names are fine and I can ask about those names when I get them.
Kage/Amy
EnderWiggin
12-18-2022, 13:47
There's a weak read I could make where there's only 1 wolf in Kage/Csargo/Amy.
Vote: Amy
For now.
EnderWiggin
12-18-2022, 13:54
Actually no.
Vote: Boq
EnderWiggin
12-18-2022, 13:56
I have been sick and really wish I had more time to poke this game ><
I think Boq makes more sense in worlds than Amy.
I think the Renata kill on level 1 points to Boq or Monty because Amy/Kage as a team probably never kill Renata when she'd push Boq.
I think Monty is town so low level read says Boq is the wolf.
EnderWiggin
12-18-2022, 13:56
I will feel really dumb if I've townread Csargo now but I keep bouncing back to Csargo being town.
Raskolnikov
12-18-2022, 14:58
Amy (2): Monty, Boquise
Kagemusha (1): Csargo
Boquise (1): Ender
EOD in 10 hours.
Raskolnikov
12-18-2022, 15:20
Amy (2): Monty, Boquise
Kagemusha (1): Csargo
Boquise (1): Ender
Csargo (1): Kagemusha
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 16:56
hollowkatt
Looking at yesterday. Little has changed, but Taffy was killed whom i had in the town side of things.I am ready to put Monty into the town based on the effort he made yesterday, which seems legit, while his conclusions were wrong.
Town
Ender, HK
townish
Boque, Monty
neutral
Amy
scummish
Csargo
My vote is the same as yesterday. Csargo is flying under the radar. Leaving reasoning for his votes to other people, like Monty yesterday. You should look at him closer and draw the right conclusions. Vote: Csargo
thanks, I appreciate it. Csargo is the person I'm reading the most today, so far I'm not seeing anything leaping out as omg wolf but if what you're saying is true it wouldn't leap.
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 16:57
Kage/Amy
Do you think Amy says about Dya what Amy did early in the game re pocketing and how Dya was treating Amy if they are paired? I think that's the biggest thing turning me off of that solve.
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 17:02
I have been sick and really wish I had more time to poke this game ><
I think Boq makes more sense in worlds than Amy.
I think the Renata kill on level 1 points to Boq or Monty because Amy/Kage as a team probably never kill Renata when she'd push Boq.
I think Monty is town so low level read says Boq is the wolf.
ender
monty
hk
I'm most confident there. By association Amy seems good b/c of the whole ladd/dya interactions with amy and the pocketing comment. I wish Amy had provided more before they'd bailed. I'm kinda torn on the one hand remove potential mistake from lylo today seems smart and if they are wolf that's great but if we're going to chop amy on flimsy stuff today is the only day we can.
Csargo I have never had a problem with and thought they had townie moments.
Kage I can see their world view, kinda. Except csargo I think.
I have to think about Boq as well. I have seen him as town since we engaged together and don't think I'm wrong there either but if I'm not wrong on boq then the last two must be within csargo, amy, kage.
Thoughts?
Do you think Amy says about Dya what Amy did early in the game re pocketing and how Dya was treating Amy if they are paired? I think that's the biggest thing turning me off of that solve.
I don't know enough about either of them to say whether their actions early game make them unpaired. I'd have to go look back at Monty's post.
I tr everyone else in the game, and I'm a bit ill, so I don't want to deep dive into it.
Kage's only engaged the game on the surface, and in the later phases with decreased volume that shouldn't be happening imo.
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 20:32
ugh everyone is sick or just not posting and honestly I think it's b/c wolves are happy with the status quo
I know we're running out of time and I know that sleep just delays todays decision anyways which is great b/c kiddo just got sick. I'll try to put some work in at least to leave a legacy or whatever before EOD
I have been sick and really wish I had more time to poke this game ><
I think Boq makes more sense in worlds than Amy.
I think the Renata kill on level 1 points to Boq or Monty because Amy/Kage as a team probably never kill Renata when she'd push Boq.
I think Monty is town so low level read says Boq is the wolf.
it is true that amy/kage might be unlikely to make the renata kill, but since i am town how should i view the game? Monty/Kage? I think monty is town though
hollowkatt
12-18-2022, 20:44
it is true that amy/kage might be unlikely to make the renata kill, but since i am town how should i view the game? Monty/Kage? I think monty is town though
why not consider csargo? Ender said he's got a reason to call csargo town, if you've got one what is yours?
ugh everyone is sick or just not posting and honestly I think it's b/c wolves are happy with the status quo
I know we're running out of time and I know that sleep just delays todays decision anyways which is great b/c kiddo just got sick. I'll try to put some work in at least to leave a legacy or whatever before EOD
i am sorry
I am having a big burnout atm and I keep coming back to the same solve
ftr, i think it is good that ender is voting me since the votes are so close. i know i am town and considering that no one is jumping in to vote me with ender, to tie it with amy, makes me consider that i am wrong about amy.
why not consider csargo? Ender said he's got a reason to call csargo town, if you've got one what is yours?
the fact that if so all three wolves would be on the same wagon when the wagons were town vs town vs amy tbh
but considering the whole game, i have the least reasons to town read amy so i will go with that
i dont think it is good for the game state if we keep having this dynamic in a potential lylo
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