Casual december game

[Boquise]

Yeah, expected.

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Yeah, I know it sounds ridiculous when you put it like that.

this defeatism is Vulgard being town
The game just yeeted Logic for similar awkward posts prior.
I do not think scum!Vulgard would lie down and "oh woe" as scum here since scum should be aware of the thread atmosphere by now. Plus the passive-aggressiveness. There is no survivability here. This game has punished posts like this before. It is just town.

[Boquise]

Everyone tbh lmao

Get em boq

good thing my weapon of choice is the boomerang then
since everyone means everyone
and assaulting people with boomerangs means that in the end game I will assault myself with a boomerang
fitting, nice and tidy tbh

[Boquise]

i will say: i am not sold on boq being a wolf or even kage being v, a few of kages posts have made me question my read there - but my initial feeling was that boqs push on kage was pretty weak - i expected a little more to it

i agree my push on kage was weak tbh
it was the very nature of it tbh

my new playstyle is to just say who i think is town, vote something i think is minorly scummy, say my feelings regarding top wagons even though I know it will rend me scum reads (because nuanced thought is scummy tbh), sip my alcohol and go to bed tbh

[Boquise]

He caught this:



An inconsistency in Pizza's claimed worldview. Which to me says he's not just trying to appear engaged with the thread, he actually is engaged with it. I'll grant that that is the only such question I could find.

did pizza ever answer my question? Askthepizzaguy

[Renata]

I aspire to your level of detachment. I'm improving though.

[Boquise]

Also literally no one has even given a glance at my explanation on Boq or thoughts on it, even to tell me I'm wrong, and it's disheartening tbqh

I will get to those thoughts when I have read up unless you wanna copy paste them to me and stuff tbh EnderWiggin

[Boquise]

I aspire to your level of detachment. I'm improving though.

after an x amount of mafia burnouts and cynically seeing things repeat themselves, this is the end result tbh
you'll get there tbh

[dyachei]

this explanation? dyachei

yeah that one. it feels like a wolfy walk back

[Boquise]

Ender (3): Renata, Vulgard, Ladd
Boquise (2): Ender, Visor
Visor (1): HK
Dya (1): Pizza
HK (1): Kagemusha

so amy isnt even a wagon at all
fun tbh

[Boquise]

yeah that one. it feels like a wolfy walk back

isnt it a bit too textbook wolfy tho?
Like Vulgard isnt even trying to sound townie there. Just how Logic was textbook wolfy yesterday?

[Boquise]

After reading today?s posts as well. Im gonnavote: Hollowkatt. You seem to be all over the place, so much that it seems like you are just being active for sake of activity. Can you share your top suspects and give reasoning for why?

my gut says that this is a wolfy post tbh
the whole scum reading someone for "active for the sake of being active" is kinda a cop-out. Idk this all feels like a manufactured hollow read
tho i saw now that you're Finnish.
So maybe it is just my blood that makes me wanna scum read here tbh

[EnderWiggin]

Actually I'm being dumb here. I shouldn't be the one reviewing this. EnderWiggin Can you show me whatever progression you have on either Hollowkatt or Monty from day one (or today) that shows there's something more to you putting them in the PoE than simply being out of options?

I put them in my POE because they were in my "Process of Elimination."

On D1 I had "Logic" in big red letters in that pool. I didn't expand much outside that because tbh I convinced myself I'd caught it and I would have time to find out who his partners were tomorrow.

So no.

No there's no evidence.

I shouldn't have to tell you this.

Also I removed HK from my pool.

[Visor]

vote: ampharos

[Ampharos]

ok i'm caught up

trying to organize my thoughts

i'm catching myself falling into the trap of "this game is really hard if [other top wagon from d1] isn't a wolf" but i seem to not being the only one thinking that? with the obvious caveat that i'm also being thrown in that pile by others, but still

the towniest posters thus far today are renata, pizza, and visor, probably in that order

i'm not reevaluating my cape townread, i am reevaluating my vulgard townread but i quite frankly have no real idea what to do with him now, because a lot of his posts today have struck my brain at such a strange logical angle that i can't really make any sort of alignment-indicative sense of them

i think monty's d2 has been really towny and i kinda want someone who knows him better than i do (visor maybe?) to sanity check me on that because i feel slightly insane for saying it

ladd is town and i think my reason for it is kinda stupid. i don't think w!ladd would have any reason to bus w!ender when there are a fair few other suspects with momentum today (e.g. hypothetical v!vulgard, e.g. myself), and in a w!ladd v!ender world i don't think ladd would want to tie my alignment so directly to ender's and risk undermining his wolfread on me when ender flips

"amy surely that isn't the sole thing you're townreading ladd on" idk i think his d1 was a villagery sort of incorrect. i honestly don't think i'm a very good ladd reader, the one other game i've actually played with him he snowed me hard

can't say i came out of this catchup with any super explicit wolfreads but i think that's largely because i did a fairly surface level reading in order to prioritize not getting stuck in thread backlog hell, and i find that doing that kind of catchup tends to be a lot better at catching villagers than wolves for me

think my current gamestate perspective is, like. there's a big-ish pile of people that i was weakly townreading/nullreading yesterday, and i need to get a much better handle on them today, because i think the vast majority of wolves are in that pile. talking people like... dya boq hk kage. that's not a wolfreads list or even really the full suspects pool but i think i would be really, really surprised if there's not at least one in there.

i feel pretty decent about all my strong townreads and i'm not really gonna worry about that side of things unless the game gets hard (read: ender flips v LMAO)

i've also chosen to make a conscious effort to not care about people wolfreading me. if people have direct questions i'll ask em. otherwise i'll hope that i'm able to towntell better today, and if not, whatever

stay tuned for when this particular aspect of my strategy fails, because it's in my nature to get frustrated and uncomfortable when i'm wolfread, but i would really like for it to not be!

[Boquise]

I think I'd like you nail down what you're looking at when you say "all over the place".

I shall town read Renata tbh

[Visor]

my gut says that this is a wolfy post tbh
the whole scum reading someone for "active for the sake of being active" is kinda a cop-out. Idk this all feels like a manufactured hollow read
tho i saw now that you're Finnish.
So maybe it is just my blood that makes me wanna scum read here tbh

I can't disagree with you lol but I don't wanna kill Kage :sad:

[Ampharos]

vote: ampharos

good xpost...?

[Boquise]

ok i'm caught up

trying to organize my thoughts

i'm catching myself falling into the trap of "this game is really hard if [other top wagon from d1] isn't a wolf" but i seem to not being the only one thinking that? with the obvious caveat that i'm also being thrown in that pile by others, but still

the towniest posters thus far today are renata, pizza, and visor, probably in that order

i'm not reevaluating my cape townread, i am reevaluating my vulgard townread but i quite frankly have no real idea what to do with him now, because a lot of his posts today have struck my brain at such a strange logical angle that i can't really make any sort of alignment-indicative sense of them

i think monty's d2 has been really towny and i kinda want someone who knows him better than i do (visor maybe?) to sanity check me on that because i feel slightly insane for saying it

ladd is town and i think my reason for it is kinda stupid. i don't think w!ladd would have any reason to bus w!ender when there are a fair few other suspects with momentum today (e.g. hypothetical v!vulgard, e.g. myself), and in a w!ladd v!ender world i don't think ladd would want to tie my alignment so directly to ender's and risk undermining his wolfread on me when ender flips

"amy surely that isn't the sole thing you're townreading ladd on" idk i think his d1 was a villagery sort of incorrect. i honestly don't think i'm a very good ladd reader, the one other game i've actually played with him he snowed me hard

can't say i came out of this catchup with any super explicit wolfreads but i think that's largely because i did a fairly surface level reading in order to prioritize not getting stuck in thread backlog hell, and i find that doing that kind of catchup tends to be a lot better at catching villagers than wolves for me

think my current gamestate perspective is, like. there's a big-ish pile of people that i was weakly townreading/nullreading yesterday, and i need to get a much better handle on them today, because i think the vast majority of wolves are in that pile. talking people like... dya boq hk kage. that's not a wolfreads list or even really the full suspects pool but i think i would be really, really surprised if there's not at least one in there.

i feel pretty decent about all my strong townreads and i'm not really gonna worry about that side of things unless the game gets hard (read: ender flips v LMAO)

i've also chosen to make a conscious effort to not care about people wolfreading me. if people have direct questions i'll ask em. otherwise i'll hope that i'm able to towntell better today, and if not, whatever

stay tuned for when this particular aspect of my strategy fails, because it's in my nature to get frustrated and uncomfortable when i'm wolfread, but i would really like for it to not be!

PLAYER SALAD! Right here, smacking me in the face in the Mafia Championship.

[Ampharos]

ftr i agree that kage's vote is wolfy but i kinda got the impression that his big catchup wall done more in the sort of way out-of-phase villagers do it than out-of-phase wolves

rly just have no idea what to do with that slot

[Vulgard]

Boquise is town.

[EnderWiggin]

I will get to those thoughts when I have read up unless you wanna copy paste them to me and stuff tbh EnderWiggin

You'll find it somewhere in early-ish D2. I'm literally sneaking on to post while at work and I shouldn't.

[EnderWiggin]

Vote: Amy

Don't like that catchup post and Vul has stolen words from my mouth again.

[Boquise]

How to Make Player Salad: A Guide

Player Salad is the signature dish of The Syndicate. Those of you who have been following this tournament closely may have seen one of our head chefs, JaggedJimmyJay, teach the recipe to his fellow townies in Game 6. Player Salad is a dish which can sometimes confound people, but it's really quite simple. The basic recipe is this: "I could lynch Player X, Y, or Z. Maybe W." I am not one to rigorously argue for "mafia tells", but for whatever reason this one has an unusually high success rate. I suppose the above-mentioned configuration suggests that the player lacks conviction, and simultaneously feels a need to compensate for that lack of conviction by lumping several players together in an indistinguishable blend of suspicion: A salad, if you will. I will not say that it is 100% accurate or foolproof, but I give it some weight. So when I see the formula reproduced exactly by Ampharos:

[QUOTE=Ampharos;2053837873]
think my current gamestate perspective is, like. there's a big-ish pile of people that i was weakly townreading/nullreading yesterday, and i need to get a much better handle on them today, because i think the vast majority of wolves are in that pile. talking people like... dya boq hk kage. that's not a wolfreads list or even really the full suspects pool but i think i would be really, really surprised if there's not at least one in there.




I can give a more thorough read on Ampharos later. Right now it is 5:30 in the morning and I've just marathoned my way through this thread overnight so that I could be somewhat informed if I manage to also be awake at the deadline, which I hope to do. I urge people to look into Ampharos if I pass out momentarily. She is comfortably my top suspect after having read the thread in one sitting.

[Ampharos]

PLAYER SALAD! Right here, smacking me in the face in the Mafia Championship.

they call me the guy fieri of mafia

and brother, i don't think we're in flavortown anymore

[Vulgard]

[QUOTE=Sloonei;3987755]
How to Make Player Salad: A Guide

Player Salad is the signature dish of The Syndicate. Those of you who have been following this tournament closely may have seen one of our head chefs, JaggedJimmyJay, teach the recipe to his fellow townies in Game 6. Player Salad is a dish which can sometimes confound people, but it's really quite simple. The basic recipe is this: "I could lynch Player X, Y, or Z. Maybe W." I am not one to rigorously argue for "mafia tells", but for whatever reason this one has an unusually high success rate. I suppose the above-mentioned configuration suggests that the player lacks conviction, and simultaneously feels a need to compensate for that lack of conviction by lumping several players together in an indistinguishable blend of suspicion: A salad, if you will. I will not say that it is 100% accurate or foolproof, but I give it some weight. So when I see the formula reproduced exactly by Ampharos:





I can give a more thorough read on Ampharos later. Right now it is 5:30 in the morning and I've just marathoned my way through this thread overnight so that I could be somewhat informed if I manage to also be awake at the deadline, which I hope to do. I urge people to look into Ampharos if I pass out momentarily. She is comfortably my top suspect after having read the thread in one sitting.

The catchup post solidified my belief she's a wolf and I've been wolfsiding.

[Boquise]

i always miss out in removing parts of the quote, literally ruining my own joke
give me the clown pistol, i am not fit to meme anymore

[Boquise]

ftr i agree that kage's vote is wolfy but i kinda got the impression that his big catchup wall done more in the sort of way out-of-phase villagers do it than out-of-phase wolves

rly just have no idea what to do with that slot

thats nice tbh
if you are a wolf, kage wolf stonks rise
i should invest tbh

[Ampharos]

alright well if y'all are just gonna be condescending about it then why do i even fucking bother

[Boquise]

I can't disagree with you lol but I don't wanna kill Kage :sad:

it is ok
we can get kage last tbh

it is more fun telling someone you know they are a wolf but will let them live just to see them struggle tbh

[Boquise]

alright well if y'all are just gonna be condescending about it then why do i even fucking bother

look at my broken quote tbh

[dyachei]

boq i didnt think logic was textbook wolfy

I think vulgard had to say something because like...he was caught in a lie

[Boquise]

to be somewhat serious and give context

in my last syndicate game, i got the sloonei role. I was only to quote posts from Sloonei (mafia champion from syndicate, season 7) in his quali, then semi, and then final (from D1 to D3). During the first day, I decided to chronologically quote Sloonei from his qualifier, never go away from the post count, and when I saw a post from a player that I thought was a bit player salad-y, I decided to quote the salad stuff tbh

however it felt mean to bury a player because of 30% meme reasons, so I relented and went to bed.
Turns out that player was scum.

The heavenly light of glory keeps being just within my grasps... until I let it go tbh

[Ampharos]

look at my broken quote tbh

i read it

i still can't tell if you're actually accusing me of doing the player salad tell or if it was a flippant way to disengage for the night while maintaining a scumread on me

[Boquise]

boq i didnt think logic was textbook wolfy

I think vulgard had to say something because like...he was caught in a lie

the thread thought he was textbook wolfy, and he was wolf read through textbook wolf read reasons tbh
Maybe I am over-repping Vulgard here but... I think he'd go different routes in his explanation than just... being overtly and blatantly "oops shit" about it. Feels a bit too much of a Scooby Doo villain tbh

[Ampharos]

i would like to know what specifically vulgard and ender didn't like about my catchup, given that they arrived at that conclusion quite quickly after i posted it

as concisely as possible, if you would (yes this is a direct vulgard callout LOL)

[Boquise]

i read it

i still can't tell if you're actually accusing me of doing the player salad tell or if it was a flippant way to disengage for the night while maintaining a scumread on me

how about i drank a glass of wine and ready to


how about both?


tho
how does that even work with "disengage"?
You and I weren't engaging at that point. If we live in this world, I could just as well go to bed and sleep right away tbh instead of creating something. So you should be able to tell tbh, considering the latter doesn't make sense tbh

[Boquise]

i am going to wolfily disengage now tho tbh


i have some pokemon violet to play, or perhaps i will fall asleep with the novel I am currently reading, Anna Kavan's Ice. Fascinating thing tbh

toodaloo tbh

[Ampharos]

how about i drank a glass of wine and ready to


how about both?


tho
how does that even work with "disengage"?
You and I weren't engaging at that point. If we live in this world, I could just as well go to bed and sleep right away tbh instead of creating something. So you should be able to tell tbh, considering the latter doesn't make sense tbh

"disengage" here meaning "leave the thread, since you were talking about falling asleep"

was not talking about being engaged with me specifically

[EnderWiggin]

i would like to know what specifically vulgard and ender didn't like about my catchup, given that they arrived at that conclusion quite quickly after i posted it

as concisely as possible, if you would (yes this is a direct vulgard callout LOL)

Loosely agreeing with the world currently put out without putting much effort in because you know I'm going to flip town so you'll have to "review" anyway.

And you don't want to rock the current focus/pressure on me.

[Boquise]

"disengage" here meaning "leave the thread, since you were talking about falling asleep"

was not talking about being engaged with me specifically

idk tbh
like i dont see the reason why i would choose to do so by memeing at you

it isnt like i did a song and dance about it yesterday tbh
and theres nothing disengaging with my post to you, given i even kept responding to you (even when you were reacting negatively to the reactions). Doesnt fit the glove tbh

[Ampharos]

[QUOTE=Boquise;2053837882]

The catchup post solidified my belief she's a wolf and I've been wolfsiding.

honestly this is like a textbook pile-on

vote: Vulgard

[Boquise]

smh visor went all quiet when the thread began brawling

#Sad #No #Where'sMyElectricCarBruce

[Boquise]

[QUOTE=Vulgard;2053837884]

honestly this is like a textbook pile-on

vote: Vulgard

why are you stealing my textbooks and breaking dem quotes smh smh

[Boquise]

why am i town Vulgard

[Ampharos]

idk tbh
like i dont see the reason why i would choose to do so by memeing at you

it isnt like i did a song and dance about it yesterday tbh
and theres nothing disengaging with my post to you, given i even kept responding to you (even when you were reacting negatively to the reactions). Doesnt fit the glove tbh

sure whatever poor word choice on my part

this is a really strange thing to get hung up on, my dude

[Ampharos]

Loosely agreeing with the world currently put out without putting much effort in because you know I'm going to flip town so you'll have to "review" anyway.

And you don't want to rock the current focus/pressure on me.

alright so honestly my initial reaction to this post was going to be "man if i was a wolf i'd be able to come up with something better than just sleepwalking into PoE votes. i'd at least have like... scumreads"

but i've been lazy enough this game that i don't even know if that's entirely true? something something im retired

so i guess the question i have is: which reads do you think i should be reevaluating that i'm currently not? because i would love to find you as town, and to figure out which wolf i'm inevitably giving too much of a free pass, but i'm not there yet

[Visor]

smh visor went all quiet when the thread began brawling

#Sad #No #Where'sMyElectricCarBruce

Smh I was preparing dinner

[Visor]

amy whats ur read on dya

what do you think of their defence of u

[Totally not Taffy]

If I asked you questions and you do not answer them like you are trying to convince a fellow townie of your solve, we WILL NOT see day three together.

Is this a slip where you expect to see D3? You asked to be answered as if you were town and I will, but if we do see D3 together getting you yeeted will be my top priority.



Question posed for everyone who would like to assist me today:

1) Who do you believe did the best solving on day one out of everyone, in terms of process and likelihood of being right

The only two people who I noticed having a process rather than on the spot reads were you and Montmorency, so I'm going with him. Given his posts today I am still happy with that answer, though if Kagemusha gets results with his I'm going to study and copy it in future games.



2) Besides your own suspicions list and town leans, which other player's reads this game would you sheep if you had to sheep someone? Including Spooge.

I would rather sheep individual reads that I think have good reasoning behind them or are made on players I feel I cannot read by players who are better at it than sheep a particular player entirely. For example, I'm willing to sheep your and Vulgard's read on Ladd. That doesn't mean I'll sheep the rest of them.

Ignoring my preference (and to give you a real answer), currently I'd be willing to sheep Montmorencey, Kagemusha, Boquise and Ladd. Given a green check I'd also definitely sheep Ender (even if he was wrong initially, I do believe he has the ability to solve the game in the end and that's what counts).



3) What was the basis of the suspicions on Logic

I'm assuming you mean my reasons for voting him, if you want a general feel of why the rest of the thread was suspicious of him lmk. I had early suspicions of Logic because of his early posting. Then his posting got better, but he kept getting heat from enough people to warrant being a wagon. I was ok with him going over in the end because I thought his case on Visor was based on bad reasoning (sorry Logic). In Logic's head:

Visor has a godread on him
Visor is aware of this
Other players in this game are aware of this
Instead of letting another member of his team push Logic for his awkward posting, wolf!Visor decides to risk outing himself to those other players


This just doesn't make sense. It would be terrible wolfing and Visor is not a terrible wolf. Since Logic flipped town and those other players deny 3, my conclusion is that Visor's godread exists only in Logic's head.



4) Who on that wagon are wolves, including "none" or whichever names you wish.

It really depends on Ender's and Ampharos' alignments, but it would surprise me if there were no wolves on that wagon at all. If Ender and/or Ampharos are town, then probably no more than two, and the off-wagon voters become more likely to be wolves. If Ender is a wolf then almost certainly Visor.



@ Taffy

Would you bet the game that Vulgard is town?

Meaning, you have no doubt at all.

If so, explain how you got there in a manner that presupposes I have never played with Vulgard, do not know how to read him, and if you are that confident you must have strong reasons.

I need you to hold my hand, and walk me through it like I am stupid. Do not assume I understand anything you're saying but the definitions of the words you're using.

I could only be that certain of my read if it was on a player I had played regularly and recently with that I had experience of reading correctly. I have never played with Vulgard before, so no. I am, however, still willing to walk you through it: from what Vulgard told me, I have concluded that he enjoys wolfing more than towning, and that he would have been happy to rand wolf this game. Nobody has stood up yet to tell me I'm wrong on this. Vulgard's early posts do not scream "woot woot I randed wolf" to me. Hence, he's not a wolf. I realise this is simplistic, but in order to know better I'd have to go and read former wolf games of his and I don't think that's worth it unless we're in LyLo together. That's why the category is named "people I'd prefer not to look at again till LyLo" and not "towncore".



You have no idea I am town.

Awesome, gonna set you aside in the null pile.

I hope this is a joke because it shouldn't be this easy to pocket you. I feel like the way you're interacting with Renata this game is distinctly different from how the two of you treated each other in Dale's Kingmaker game you recently played together and from that I think there's probably at least one wolf between you. If you flip green tonight and you don't want me tunnelling her tomorrow, please explain how I'm wrong about my observation or why the two of you would treating each other differently is NAI.



How about you put some real effort into your solve as if you want to convince anyone at all that your solve is one you believe

For your whole day one you played with some level of confidence. To enter day two and suddenly have less confidence instead of more, doesn't make sense.

Don't you have MORE information now than you did on day one?

Don't you have a smaller pool of suspects?

As the counterwagon, you have a unique insight as to what the wolves probably did. I don't see you aggressively pursuing any suspect.

There is no need for this, you could have made your point differently. If Ender is a town low on WIM then being told he isn't good enough isn't going to encourage him to put in more effort, he will just dislike being in this game and want out. If Ender is a wolf then he didn't choose his rand and it's probably very painful for him to be found so soon by so many people. Either way this isn't a great approach.

Similar for Vulgard, but I somehow lost the quote. This is supposed to be a casual game, allow people to enjoy it even while you're killing them.

As an aside, I didn't think Ender's readslist was lacking, it's pretty much what I'm used to from him. I read your SoD as heavily implying that you had a cop check on someone (presumably Ender or Vulgard, maybe Visor), and if anything Ender's relaxing shows that he expects to be green checked. Visor, otoh, was all but lolcatting this morning (though he seems to have picked up again recently).

[Totally not Taffy]

I don't like the bolded, always feel like stuff like that seems made up to me.



I find the end of this quote just weird. It's not like "I think you're a woof" and more to me like" I want you to think I think you're a woof" or like a gotcha type deal? It was just odd phrasing to me.

Plus a lower level of content from hk than I've been accustomed to imo, but they already explained that.

I didn't really push it, except a comment about the about the above quote that was semi-serious. These are things similar to stuff that's bothered me before about hk, and I'm always wrong, so I didn't really do anything with it. Just focused on other people.

Thank you! How do you feel about his posting today? Do you think I should back off?

I realise in replying to this post that I left you off of my list of people I would be willing to sheep. Askthepizzaguy

[Boquise]

sure whatever poor word choice on my part

this is a really strange thing to get hung up on, my dude

Why is it a strange thing to get hung up on tbh?

[Boquise]

Is this a slip where you expect to see D3? You asked to be answered as if you were town and I will, but if we do see D3 together getting you yeeted will be my top priority.




The only two people who I noticed having a process rather than on the spot reads were you and Montmorency, so I'm going with him. Given his posts today I am still happy with that answer, though if Kagemusha gets results with his I'm going to study and copy it in future games.




I would rather sheep individual reads that I think have good reasoning behind them or are made on players I feel I cannot read by players who are better at it than sheep a particular player entirely. For example, I'm willing to sheep your and Vulgard's read on Ladd. That doesn't mean I'll sheep the rest of them.

Ignoring my preference (and to give you a real answer), currently I'd be willing to sheep Montmorencey, Kagemusha, Boquise and Ladd. Given a green check I'd also definitely sheep Ender (even if he was wrong initially, I do believe he has the ability to solve the game in the end and that's what counts).




I'm assuming you mean my reasons for voting him, if you want a general feel of why the rest of the thread was suspicious of him lmk. I had early suspicions of Logic because of his early posting. Then his posting got better, but he kept getting heat from enough people to warrant being a wagon. I was ok with him going over in the end because I thought his case on Visor was based on bad reasoning (sorry Logic). In Logic's head:

Visor has a godread on him
Visor is aware of this
Other players in this game are aware of this
Instead of letting another member of his team push Logic for his awkward posting, wolf!Visor decides to risk outing himself to those other players


This just doesn't make sense. It would be terrible wolfing and Visor is not a terrible wolf. Since Logic flipped town and those other players deny 3, my conclusion is that Visor's godread exists only in Logic's head.




It really depends on Ender's and Ampharos' alignments, but it would surprise me if there were no wolves on that wagon at all. If Ender and/or Ampharos are town, then probably no more than two, and the off-wagon voters become more likely to be wolves. If Ender is a wolf then almost certainly Visor.




I could only be that certain of my read if it was on a player I had played regularly and recently with that I had experience of reading correctly. I have never played with Vulgard before, so no. I am, however, still willing to walk you through it: from what Vulgard told me, I have concluded that he enjoys wolfing more than towning, and that he would have been happy to rand wolf this game. Nobody has stood up yet to tell me I'm wrong on this. Vulgard's early posts do not scream "woot woot I randed wolf" to me. Hence, he's not a wolf. I realise this is simplistic, but in order to know better I'd have to go and read former wolf games of his and I don't think that's worth it unless we're in LyLo together. That's why the category is named "people I'd prefer not to look at again till LyLo" and not "towncore".




I hope this is a joke because it shouldn't be this easy to pocket you. I feel like the way you're interacting with Renata this game is distinctly different from how the two of you treated each other in Dale's Kingmaker game you recently played together and from that I think there's probably at least one wolf between you. If you flip green tonight and you don't want me tunnelling her tomorrow, please explain how I'm wrong about my observation or why the two of you would treating each other differently is NAI.




There is no need for this, you could have made your point differently. If Ender is a town low on WIM then being told he isn't good enough isn't going to encourage him to put in more effort, he will just dislike being in this game and want out. If Ender is a wolf then he didn't choose his rand and it's probably very painful for him to be found so soon by so many people. Either way this isn't a great approach.

Similar for Vulgard, but I somehow lost the quote. This is supposed to be a casual game, allow people to enjoy it even while you're killing them.

As an aside, I didn't think Ender's readslist was lacking, it's pretty much what I'm used to from him. I read your SoD as heavily implying that you had a cop check on someone (presumably Ender or Vulgard, maybe Visor), and if anything Ender's relaxing shows that he expects to be green checked. Visor, otoh, was all but lolcatting this morning (though he seems to have picked up again recently).

I am going to town read Taffy for the last part of this post. I find it rare that wolves go the empathetic constructive path in their answers and thoughts tbh

Tho i did get burned on this in my last game
But still
Let's do a town read

[Boquise]

Smh I was preparing dinner

Weak tbh

[Cape90]

oh and luvspooge was probably mac

for postgame credit

I just want to spoil that Mac would wolfread me if luvs was mac I think so i do not think so.

Presumably at least from my POV.

Didn't really feel like him either, not antagonistic enough

[Visor]

Weak tbh

i was cutting jalapenos without gloves

:chucks:

[Cape90]

VOTE: Kagemusha

I hate everything about what I have seen from the slot

After I catch up I still want to ISO

This is just my gut reaction after seeing his readslist

[Ampharos]

thinking abt csargo and taffy, who i think are the only 2 people i didn't name in my last post

neither has stuck to my brain very well and i think it's largely because i don't really know them and we haven't really been around at the same time (that i can recall)

and taffy's posts in particular are dense and difficult to parse for me in my current low-effort state

i think the general shape of her thread contributions has been villagery, but i think it's specifically villagery in a way that good wolves can fake. i have no meta on her so i have no idea if she is one of those, but... yeah. call it another null for the salad, i suppose

csargo i think is town and it's mostly because he genuinely seemed like he had no real idea how to handle visor fakeclaiming at him

this post was not finished but i had to deal with a work thing and now the train of thought has evaporated so here's what was already in the box when i came back

[Totally not Taffy]

well yeah logic is dead town, you're obvs not going to say you're a wolf, and that leaves vulgard and taffy. Neither of which I'm remembering well or impressed by (which I guess is saying functionally the same thing)

Ender/Visor is a spicy solve and I could see that. I guess the big question is with a player list this stacked why did luv die first?
I don't feel like it's a fear kill, luv was an alt of someone that knows a lot of us and I don't particularly care who they are under the mask, but if someone did know it could turn into a fear kill.

Their reads list doesn't seem like a reason to die. could just be a weird kill to throw off the scent as well as getting rid of someone they were unlikely to get chopped during the day.

Given that even I have both of them in PoE I do not agree that there's anything spicy about that solve. I think the bolded is very sketchy reasoning, just because it doesn't matter to you who Spooge was doesn't mean it didn't matter to the wolves (unless you're one of them). And it's not a fear kill but it might have been? That's waffly.

From my perspective, one of the most remarkable things about Spooge's reads list is that he had you as a top town, and even had called you obviously so. This is part of the reason you gave for voting him, you didn't feel you had done anything that warranted that. Great. But now you're explicitly not mentioning the option that wolves killed Spooge so it would be easier to push you today? When you were very much aware or his read and several people are scumreading you? That doesn't look town to me.

Renata even very helpfully sets you up for it (I hope I got these in the right order):


They did feel extremely obv town to me, but based on thread tone that doesn't seem to have been a wide-spread feeling. Not in writing anyway.

Please specify why you think their reads list wasn't a reason to die.

if he was right locking those reads into place with people who, if town, are smart enough to start with the list and start pressing then he's worked hard to clear a few people who are chops the wolf team would like to get, and impugned people the wolf team would like to keep safe.

I guess it would have to come down to whether or not the wolf team thinks they could out play his list, or if they kept him alive, outplay him. I tend to think if you have a player who's right, and is hard to eliminate that you want to work to mitigate them not enshrine their reads for perpetuity.

It usually seems to work the other way. Gone is forgotten.

except that here it is not and the reason is that we're all highly skilled players who aren't going to forget about the recently dead. Come 3-4 days from now if we're still playing then sure but I don't know of anyone who would ignore the most recent NK reads list.

Look at how you're both dancing around this conclusion without mentioning it outright. To me this looks like wolves killed the player hard townreading one of them and are now hoping town will sheep that read.


Vote: Hollowkatt

I do not believe in antagonising my scumreads, you are a great person who I would love to play with again in the future.

[Ampharos]

Why is it a strange thing to get hung up on tbh?

i guess "meaningless semantic nitpicking" isn't that strange in a game of mafia but i still hate it

[Ampharos]

putting a bookmark here bc i don't have time to read those taffy posts rn

[Renata]

thinking abt csargo and taffy, who i think are the only 2 people i didn't name in my last post

neither has stuck to my brain very well and i think it's largely because i don't really know them and we haven't really been around at the same time (that i can recall)

and taffy's posts in particular are dense and difficult to parse for me in my current low-effort state

i think the general shape of her thread contributions has been villagery, but i think it's specifically villagery in a way that good wolves can fake. i have no meta on her so i have no idea if she is one of those, but... yeah. call it another null for the salad, i suppose

csargo i think is town and it's mostly because he genuinely seemed like he had no real idea how to handle visor fakeclaiming at him

this post was not finished but i had to deal with a work thing and now the train of thought has evaporated so here's what was already in the box when i came back

Why in your mind does not knowing how to deal with a fake claim indicate town? Why does a wolf know what to do there?

[Cape90]

I am starting to like Vulgard for 1010 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837616&viewfull=1#post2053837616) and the post under that. I do not fully remember the wagon composition on Amy and what that looked like before it was solely Pizza and Boq who I think are both town. There was definitely a lot of movement there. When I made the comment on interpreting your post initially, I didn't see dyachei's post, but I thought it made a lot of sense, so I was waiting for you to confirm or deny that, but I did start to get pretty unsure of my own reasoning I threw out there on you.

Sidenote: dyachei continues to be completely out of wolf range IMO. Good to see. I would actually be surprised if dya is a wolf

Anyways I do think having Montmorency as wolf is a unique take I suppose. I do not have a strong stance there yet.

What about HK's posting particularly today did you find towny?

Also listen, I have a green check on Pizza :2thumbsup: so he is cleared for sure, at least for another couple hours or so.

Last note of 1011 (since i did also specify the post under 1010) that last thing Vulgard said i wanna read as towny.

Big ol post in 1111 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837719&viewfull=1#post2053837719) I also townread from Vulgard. The fourth I suppose you could say paragraph (tho not rly paragraph but u know)? from the post reads to me as towny. Just because I just kind of believe it, which sounds wolfy, but I don't care. I feel like talking to Pizza in this fashion is town-indicative and defending Ender like this is a bit on the nose if w/w.

[Visor]

atpg if you dont have 10000 words of content and a complete solve at precisely the 24 hour mark i will be extremely disappointed

[Raskolnikov]

Ender (4): Renata, Vulgard, Ladd, Boquise
Amy (2): Visor, Ender
HK (2): Kagemusha, Taffy
Visor (1): HK
Dya (1): Pizza
Vulgard (1): Amy
Kagemusha (1): Cape

[Ampharos]

Why in your mind does not knowing how to deal with a fake claim indicate town? Why does a wolf know what to do there?

i think if csargo was wolfing here he would do his flip-flopping on whether or not to go along with the claim in wolfchat, not in thread

basically i'm reading the public second guessing himself as genuine

[Vulgard]

why am i town Vulgard

Your callout on Amy just now, especially the player salad claim. It's more or less why I thought her catch-up post was wolfy.

[Totally not Taffy]

By the way this is Vulgard's actual comment that he said later was a reaction assessment.



I can't see this as a reaction assessment, I just can't. I can be be persuaded by AtE, I can believe I'm probably wrong about everything else, but I'm stuck on this.

(Ender's pockety comment that this was in response to was "I mean you bending yourself about specifics just makes me think you're town so good job =P")


When I first read Vulgard's post I thought he had interpreted Ender's post as a reaction assessment - you know, give someone a townread and if they're happy about it they're probably a wolf and if they object they're probably town so the correct response is "don't pocket me". But this later reply contradicts that so I was wrong.



Eh, I wasn't trying to AtE, just explain my mindset. I feel like the definition of AtE has been stretched so much it's a massively umbrella term that means a lot of things now, more than it did originally.



Yeah, okay, I should probably just admit it at this point, I made that up so he'd leave me alone. I had no good answer at the time, I just felt like saying the thing but I knew just answering that would be considered wolfy.

I guess me admitting that it was made up is also wolfy but what can I do at this point lol. You're basically locktown for even noticing it anyway so I'm cool with that part.

I hope you understand Vulgard that this makes you look very bad.

[Ampharos]

Your callout on Amy just now, especially the player salad claim. It's more or less why I thought her catch-up post was wolfy.

i would love for you to elaborate

in the meantime im going to be gone for a bit because irl is royally pissing me off rn and i don't want that to spill into the game

[Totally not Taffy]

can yall who wolfread me pls elaborate besides 'not solving'

thx

(for my own personal curiosity)

I don't buy that you could have forgotten that I was in the game yesterday. I also think your posting this morning looked like you were a wolf who had given up. Glad you're back. Tell my why HK is fine.

[Totally not Taffy]

I really fricked that up, especially if Wiggin is mafia

I feel really bad

Sorry Logic

Anyways, I will be here shortly and hopefully not panicking EOD again

You should not feel bad. If players never made mistakes, wolves could never win. Apologising is also supposed to be a scumtell, because it shows a guilty conscience. If you knew this and did it on purpose then I think it's very funny. (No it does not make me think you are scum)



the thing about it is I just do not get how faking reads is something that can be interpreted as towny from a town's perspective. I have never seen it

I sometimes like to give a firm townread to a strong player who I actually don't have a good read on that game so the wolves will solve the slot for me. Or, if I think someone is town and don't want them NKed, I might keep them as a scumlean. This also catches wolves who start opportunistic pushes thinking you'll join. Sometimes it works, but you have to balance it with letting other people know where you stand. Naturally if your reads and your voting are out of sync you just end up getting misyeeted.

[Totally not Taffy]

Taffy is my top town.

I would not have voted Logic yesterday had I been around at EOD, but I wasn't. It became increasingly obvious toward the late hours of EOD that Logic wasn't a hit and people should've switched. Some did. Ladd in particular changing his vote is a good look for him imo considering how confident he was before, I think he could've kept pushing for that wagon as a wolf.

I feel roughly equal about the chances of Amy and Ender being wolves, except I like the wagon composition on Ender more. I think dya is town, I think ladd's vote switch was towny, I think Csargo has been towny. I have Montmorency in null but he voted on both Amy/Ender so his presence on the Ender wagon is kinda whatever. The Amy wagon has a lot of people I have no read on, I just have a bad reason to call Visor town from his day 1 treatment of ladd but I don't even believe in it very strongly so I'm just going to outright drop it.

Tell me about Dyachei because until you said this I thinking she fit into many possible scumteams.

[hollowkatt]

Given that even I have both of them in PoE I do not agree that there's anything spicy about that solve. I think the bolded is very sketchy reasoning, just because it doesn't matter to you who Spooge was doesn't mean it didn't matter to the wolves (unless you're one of them). And it's not a fear kill but it might have been? That's waffly.

From my perspective, one of the most remarkable things about Spooge's reads list is that he had you as a top town, and even had called you obviously so. This is part of the reason you gave for voting him, you didn't feel you had done anything that warranted that. Great. But now you're explicitly not mentioning the option that wolves killed Spooge so it would be easier to push you today? When you were very much aware or his read and several people are scumreading you? That doesn't look town to me.

Renata even very helpfully sets you up for it (I hope I got these in the right order):






Look at how you're both dancing around this conclusion without mentioning it outright. To me this looks like wolves killed the player hard townreading one of them and are now hoping town will sheep that read.


Vote: Hollowkatt

I do not believe in antagonising my scumreads, you are a great person who I would love to play with again in the future.

nothing you've written here makes any sense at all and is ascribing several positions to me that I clearly did not take, nor did I ever hint, intimate, or otherwise allude to "luv was killed to make me look bad" like wtf?

you're not antagonizing me you're just not making sense.

[hollowkatt]

I'm still catching up from the over night posts but I saw that one on "current page" and wanted to call it out as being bs

[Cape90]

Alright, let's give this the shake around

Kagemusha:


Ok. Let us see. I have not played mafia for i don?t remember how many years and some of you i i know, most i do not.So far i dont get much wolfines from the thread. The only thing really poking my eye is why Monty ignores to answer Taffy?s question about roles and knowledge, maybe you just missed it? What town needs is more talk from more people. More the merrier, so maybe poke some action? Vote: Csargo How are you old buddy?

I know this is technically not the first post, but I will treat it as such. It's not a bad start admittedly I suppose. But also just kind of meh from most of what has happened that far into the game, only pointing out 1 thing.


Ok. Thanks Taffy! Seems i overlooked the answer which i thought Monty overlooked. Sounds like something from mafia game from Geriatric ward. :sweatdrop:

The one thing Kage pointed out ended up being just a misunderstanding on Kage's end.


I hope you brought your rope and pitchfork with you. Certain amount of bloodthirst is in order to flush mafia out. But let us talk first and start hanging in a bit: Vote: Renata How has the world treated you all these years we have not played mafia together?

Talks to Csargo, votes Renata randomly

More filler going with the easy talking route of formalities, specifically talking right to Visor.


I dont have anything to point my finger into yet. Hope more people would chip in and talk.

This is Kage's last post of day 1. So Kage's day 1 entirely consisted of rando voting and doing nothing. Cool.

So the readslist that Kage made in 1152 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837760&viewfull=1#post2053837760) is the first material that Kage has posted out.

So I am in the scummy tier because... I made some bandwagon votes. Wowee. A lot of these reads come from votes that players have done in the games. Some content involved but for the most part, not really. There is something to be said about documenting all the votes in chronological order though. I would call it pretty atypical play and pretty bad play as well :). Oh and you had pretty bad votes day 1 as I mentioned so LOL.


After reading today?s posts as well. Im gonnavote: Hollowkatt. You seem to be all over the place, so much that it seems like you are just being active for sake of activity. Can you share your top suspects and give reasoning for why?

Okay a real vote for HK being all over the place and posting for the sake of posting. Then asks HK for top suspects and why. The ol' true classic rinsed and repeated reasoning that I have seen a million times.


Hollowkatt has so far voted ATGP, luv2spooge, dyachei and Visor, but i have not seen any attempt of case or building pressure against any of them.

Slightly more explanation here and meeeh


I think you hit the nail in the head there. Well said.

and yeah basically says that HK's pushes have been "hollow" which feels a little ironic considering, i don't know, your whole day 1. But maybe your just bad at day 1's.

I will review HK and see this for myself since it doesn't necessarily bring up instances, making Kage not exactly influential.

[Vulgard]

i would love for you to elaborate

in the meantime im going to be gone for a bit because irl is royally pissing me off rn and i don't want that to spill into the game

You give no real reads in that post. Everything has a conditional.

Your townreads on Renata/Visor/Pizza only apply if Ender isn't V, because if Ender is V then "the game is hard" or whatever. Funnily enough, your catch-up post also doesn't contain any attempts to solve Ender.

You have a townread on Montmorency, but you pass it off to Visor for a "sanity check," implying you don't really believe in it and want Visor (or another townie) to back you up.

You have a V read on ladd, but that one looks contrived (it makes a lot of assumptions about whether or not he would be pushing certain people) and you immediately undermine it by saying you are bad at reading ladd.

You "don't want to re-evaluate your Cape townread," but you also don't... say what the read is. Admittedly, I could go back to verify myself, but it'd just be a pain.

You say that my thoughts are hitting your brain in a weird way and you have no alignment read on me as a result. ...Okay, I guess. Then you immediately vote me because I accused you? You ask me a question, but before I even answer it, you just vote me. Guess me voting you immediately cleared everything up and I am a wolf now?

You have no wolfreads. All you offer is a vague group of four people and a statement that "you would be surprised if there isn't a wolf in there." Then you say the group could potentially be larger. So really, even that group isn't something you're constructing to solve the game, it's not even a PoE, it's just a broad stroke you're painting a huge number of players with.

You then ask Ender if he would like you to re-evaluate some of your reads. ...What reads? You have none that you truly believe. All of them are conditional. The question seems fake. This tracks with your idea that the game is difficult if Ender is town, and therefore your reads might be wrong, but you don't have any strong reads in the first place, or at least not ones that are substantiated in the slightest. I don't know how you're town and this is the question you ask Ender. You have no strong reads, this looks more like you feel obligated to engage with Ender. The end of your catch-up post even implies that you already believe that Ender will flip today either way:




i feel pretty decent about all my strong townreads and i'm not really gonna worry about that side of things unless the game gets hard (read: ender flips v LMAO)



You don't say this if you don't think Ender flips today. So.

That's why I wolfread your catch-up posts.

[Vulgard]

Tell me about Dyachei because until you said this I thinking she fit into many possible scumteams.

I had them written down as "town chillin'."

Pretty dubious reasoning, not going to lie. Also bias from them townreading me and doing so correctly.

But it's there.

[hollowkatt]

Dya Visor Vulgard Ender with a side bit of Amy sus I can't let go of rn.

basically yes

[Csargo]

Thank you! How do you feel about his posting today? Do you think I should back off?

I realise in replying to this post that I left you off of my list of people I would be willing to sheep. Askthepizzaguy

I feel meh tbh. luvs readlist being weird I can see that. Talking about why luvs was nk I don't think ever goes anywhere that leads to a correct assumption, there's too many possibilities imo. I'd like to know why hk called ender town and the reasoning behind it. The series of posts that led to that conclusion. No idea what to make of the dya back and forth.

Do whatever you want Taffy, I don't absolutely believe 100% that hk is a woof, because of what I said before, add in the trying to shift playstyle and RL stuff from hk. I have a pretty low confidence in my read there.

[Totally not Taffy]

Sidenote: dyachei continues to be completely out of wolf range IMO. Good to see. I would actually be surprised if dya is a wolf


What is Dyachei like as a wolf that you're not seeing here?

[hollowkatt]

Kagemusha why do I need to build a case or vociferously push someone I suspect? Why isn't voting for them enough?
Like sure if all I have are naked votes ask me why I'm voting, or vote me and say something about it, but your push is predicated on some kind of "do work" metric that frankly I could not possibly care less about.

And I've given reasons why I suspect people, not my fault you're either not reading them or don't think they match up with your arbitrary metrics.

[Askthepizzaguy]

did pizza ever answer my question? @Askthepizzaguy (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=23872)

I have been super busy elsewhere. i will find it.

Hang on, I'm here to do the thing.

[Cape90]

did cape get got or did he swerve correctly after getting got

I guess I have been wondering myself why HK never actually pushed me literally after this. Whatever swerved correctly means here because it still implies that "I got caught".

136 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053836675&viewfull=1#post2053836675) = HK's Pizza vote


sure why not

the only semi-solid read I currently have is you're weird and I'm not sure if I trust you. I remember you opening weirdly in a mash maybe it was and you flipped wolf and this opening reminded me of that opening, which is why I voted for you.

Yeah I remember

The Pizza vote did have more legs then Kage was letting on with this and the whole meta read thing.

I would have also brought up


the thing about pizza I'm noticing in this game is he is almost entirely relying on mafia theory rather than exploring why players have said the things they've said. For example when he suses Ampharos it's about "wolfy phrasing" not necessarily about what Ampharos was talking about.

Likewise with Ender it is more about "what would a wolf do in this situation" not "why is Ender doing what he is doing" and on D1 that's not a super bad approach to the game. Aim a wide net and hope to catch something in it. As the game progresses though it starts to lose effectiveness.

I think Pizza can do this as town or wolf and unfortunately there aren't really context clues to indicate which team he's playing for. If he's town the wolves are likely laying low, trying to skate through today and working on a plan to eliminate him at night.

If he's a wolf the rest of the wolves are staying out of his way and letting him run the show. I think the best I'm going to do is judge him on results. Where does he vote, how do the wagons he's on flip, how do the wagons he is not on, or not interested in flip, that kind of thing.

But it does seem like a more generalized statement on Pizza's wolf/town game. Also the post in entirety does feel towny for HK

I am assuming with the luvs vote, HK didn't like luvs' list according to 529 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837081&viewfull=1#post2053837081) so i think that's where 531 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837083&viewfull=1#post2053837083) comes from but I am not actually too sure. Later on HK posts 699 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837267&viewfull=1#post2053837267) which I believe makes my suspicions true about the why I believe. Even more progress confirming my confirm 893 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837495&viewfull=1#post2053837495) though I just do not really get why wait so long.

Even though I think HK is usually a pretty simple read and they are probably town for some of the thoughts they formulated this game


why not though? like at some point if you're town and you're convinced that someone else is reading you wolf when they should, by history/experience/whatever, be reading you town or at worst null isn't the logical conclusion "this person isn't pushing me in good faith"?

Like sure you said you've never been "so confident" in someone elses ability to read you but Logic appears to be stating Visor should be able to do that correctly (intimating So Confident) which makes that leap to "visor is a wolf" more of a legit conclusion than what you're arguing.


if he was right locking those reads into place with people who, if town, are smart enough to start with the list and start pressing then he's worked hard to clear a few people who are chops the wolf team would like to get, and impugned people the wolf team would like to keep safe.

I guess it would have to come down to whether or not the wolf team thinks they could out play his list, or if they kept him alive, outplay him. I tend to think if you have a player who's right, and is hard to eliminate that you want to work to mitigate them not enshrine their reads for perpetuity.


I don't think any wolf team takes a shot at pizza last night because nobody knows if a doctor exists. doctor, if you exist, shut the fuck up no you don't

anyways, back to my train of thought. If you're a wolf the best play last night is assume there is some kind of protect and assume that protection is on pizza, then go from there. Tonight I expect pizza to die, so does pizza


well yeah logic is dead town, you're obvs not going to say you're a wolf, and that leaves vulgard and taffy. Neither of which I'm remembering well or impressed by (which I guess is saying functionally the same thing)

Ender/Visor is a spicy solve and I could see that. I guess the big question is with a player list this stacked why did luv die first?
I don't feel like it's a fear kill, luv was an alt of someone that knows a lot of us and I don't particularly care who they are under the mask, but if someone did know it could turn into a fear kill.

Their reads list doesn't seem like a reason to die. could just be a weird kill to throw off the scent as well as getting rid of someone they were unlikely to get chopped during the day.

Even with some of that, I do find the luvs sus progression to be strange.

dya vote is because HK probs doesn't like dya's reads 945 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837547&viewfull=1#post2053837547) along with


interesting b/c that's where I'm at with you. Not sure what your schedule looks like but I'm about an hour from putting my kiddo to bed and then I'll be thread parked for a while. you can preload questions for me if you'd like just @ me

I find it rather weak so I can agree there.


sure, I guess.

and if I turn this around and say "dya isn't playing like anything I've seen them play before" your response is going to be "illness, kiddo, life" (in a nutshell anyways) and I'm sure you could see how I could respond with "so you can understand my concerns about you" to which your response, if you're town, is going to be "look, context is important please judge me by my content" or something to that effect.

Kinda feels like we could be talking past each other not with each other, but that is also a function of me not being here approx half the day D1 as well as our non-aligned schedules.

I think I can find you town if you are and I think you can do the same for me.

This is an interesting post on dyachei...

Anyways, as far as Visor goes, again, there is


Ender/Visor is a spicy solve and I could see that. I guess the big question is with a player list this stacked why did luv die first?
I don't feel like it's a fear kill, luv was an alt of someone that knows a lot of us and I don't particularly care who they are under the mask, but if someone did know it could turn into a fear kill.

Their reads list doesn't seem like a reason to die. could just be a weird kill to throw off the scent as well as getting rid of someone they were unlikely to get chopped during the day.

which I just brought up. As well as the read in 949 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837551&highlight=#post2053837551)

but it does feel slightly jokey in 951 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837553&viewfull=1#post2053837553)

If HK has anything to add, feel free. I don't think there's anything to be said more about luvs obviously but updates on any other ones would be appreciated

[Askthepizzaguy]

I believe I am about to die, so, if I don't answer your question that's why.

I did as much reading this game as I could with a divided schedule. Basically, family and hosting my game elsewhere ruined my ability to focus here.

I am overstressed about this, but at the same time, it is what I was randed. So.

I believe I am going to go with my original gut call here on Vulgard.

I'm pulling the trigger at the :00 mark. Wish me luck.

[Totally not Taffy]

nothing you've written here makes any sense at all and is ascribing several positions to me that I clearly did not take, nor did I ever hint, intimate, or otherwise allude to "luv was killed to make me look bad" like wtf?

you're not antagonizing me you're just not making sense.


Do you want me to try to explain it better or shall we leave it here?

[Visor]

Oh you're a desperado

Don't shoot vulgard

[Askthepizzaguy]

Legacy reads are, unfortunately, the same as before. I ran out of time to pore through everyone for stuff that could make them town.

I just dont have the time this game to do that kind of dive. Not during dinner, or putting kids to sleep, or writing flavor, or sleepin.

Legacy reads are outdated. Consider them all null if I am dead.

Do not sheep, use your own solving brain.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh you're a desperado

Don't shoot vulgard

I am shooting vulgard 100 percent.

[Visor]

Shoot Amy or someone getting a lot of heat

Idk someone we need actively cleared

Ender, Amy

[Askthepizzaguy]

Unless Vulgard is mech clear, he is dead when I pull the trigger.

Speak up.

[Visor]

Aight gl us then

If not them make it someone you are 100% convinced are a wolf

[Askthepizzaguy]

Shoot Amy or someone getting a lot of heat

Idk someone we need actively cleared

Ender, Amy

Yeet Ender and Amy and Dyachei to sky daddy.

If two of those are misses, yeet Visor.

[Visor]

You can't kill me I'm invincible

[Askthepizzaguy]

Aight gl us then

If not them make it someone you are 100% convinced are a wolf

Never 100 percent.

Also, I have zero mech info on Cape90, obviously.

I was softing a night zero that no one would believe on purpose.

[Vulgard]

I believe I am about to die, so, if I don't answer your question that's why.

I did as much reading this game as I could with a divided schedule. Basically, family and hosting my game elsewhere ruined my ability to focus here.

I am overstressed about this, but at the same time, it is what I was randed. So.

I believe I am going to go with my original gut call here on Vulgard.

I'm pulling the trigger at the :00 mark. Wish me luck.

God, my legacy on Amy is going to be so bad if she's town, I'm sorry Amy if that is the case and you aren't even here to argue with me.

Probably kill Ender here? Or follow my case on Amy. Either way, I no longer think this is a bad direction. I think my case on Monty might have merit as well.

Wouldn't kill Taffy or Boquise. Probably wouldn't kill ladd or Visor, at least not right now.

Hollowkatt gut town, the argument with Taffy feels V/V.

Kagemusha feels isolated in thread and has an equally isolated process, but I don't actually townread it all that much and it's probably worth looking into.

Idk about Cape.

[Visor]

Never 100 percent.

Also, I have zero mech info on Cape90, obviously.

I was softing a night zero that no one would believe on purpose.

You know what I mean lol

Your top read if not ender or amy

[Vulgard]

Oh, you're a desperado? Don't do this. I'll sheep your reads. I think you probably have a better handle on this game than I did before and I think you are town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You can't kill me I'm invincible

I could.

But I don't really have a wolf case on you. So, I dont gamble and shoot that.

Wish I had reads on half the players, too. Just not enough time.

[Vulgard]

Shoot Ender or Amy imo. Personal preference is Amy because Ender probably always dies today regardless while I'm not so sure about Amy dying.

Just shoot a wolfread.

[Visor]

Glgl us

[Vulgard]

Shoot Ender or Amy imo. Personal preference is Amy because Ender probably always dies today regardless while I'm not so sure about Amy dying.

Just shoot a wolfread.

Actually I shouldn't be telling you to shoot a wolfread because I'm one of your wolfreads but please.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh, you're a desperado?

I am town, and I am not an ordinary desperado.

I am granting someone in town a power when I die, not just exploding.

They will see it and use the power tomorrow.

[Vulgard]

I am town, and I am not an ordinary desperado.

I am granting someone in town a power when I die, not just exploding.

They will see it and use the power tomorrow.

Is the power public/confirmable? As in, does it clear the villager who receives it?

[Visor]

Give it to me smh

[Askthepizzaguy]

Actually I shouldn't be telling you to shoot a wolfread because I'm one of your wolfreads but please.

I am sorry. I wanted to dive your town game, I didnt get a chance.

I am really really sorry if this fails. Guess we will both be in DVC and I can apologize to you there.

Detonate: Vulgard

[Askthepizzaguy]

Is the power public/confirmable? As in, does it clear the villager who receives it?

It will be another desperado shot.

I have 2. I can give one away to a player of my choosing.

GLGL I am dead.

[Visor]

Rippos

Hope ur right

[Vulgard]

I am sorry. I wanted to dive your town game, I didnt get a chance.

I am really really sorry if this fails. Guess we will both be in DVC and I can apologize to you there.

Detonate: Vulgard

Likewise.

[Totally not Taffy]

GL!

[Csargo]

I am sorry. I wanted to dive your town game, I didnt get a chance.

I am really really sorry if this fails. Guess we will both be in DVC and I can apologize to you there.

Detonate: Vulgard

:bow:

[Visor]

So how's everyones night going

I had nachos

[Totally not Taffy]

So how's everyones night going

I had nachos

I had a negative covid test and I'm really happy about it.

[Cape90]

What is Dyachei like as a wolf that you're not seeing here?

Sure

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2393

I will make this a 2-in-1 as I was wolf as well, you ISO on this site like you ISO here btw.

But dya was wolf partner, I carried in final 3, yw dya

anywho

I feel like dyachei's posts usually come off in their wolf game as a lot more mild with less actual effort put into them.



I have a POE larger than that but HK was getting almost no attention and I think that's a problem


I just do not see w!dya making this specific point


i mostly hate these wagons cuz i think logic and amy are v

From what I have observed, usually dya likes to tip-toe around villagers that they could easily discredit and push as wolf.

I think dya's earlier comments on me leading to their light townread on me were towny. Same with Amy if I am looking non-selfishly :p

I have this feeling that dya's posts are coming off more natural then usual this game. They usually just are not the player to type big posts if you are basing your suspicions off of that.

Sometimes it feels like dyachei is in their wolf meta, but I just do not get the feeling this game. They haven't felt in the background as they seem to like to be as wolf, like I have noticed their posts.

I do not even think w!dya would have the motivation to make 1183 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837791&viewfull=1#post2053837791), though a post like that is fairly atypical from what I usually see of dyachei as we have been in a lot of games together. I guess the follow up is slightly strange though 1202 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154761-Casual-december-game?p=2053837811&viewfull=1#post2053837811).

Then dya kinda slipped onto backtracking their read from that point forward, which I don't think is scummy, but is something I don't think I have seen dya usually do.

[Cape90]

welp, it's been good playing with 2 town, let's lose now!

[Cape90]

welp, it's been good playing with 2 town, let's lose now!

oh it's desperado

spicy

I thought it was a sorcerer

[Visor]

I had a negative covid test and I'm really happy about it.

Nice happy for u

[EnderWiggin]

Well.

I hope I'm wrong on Vulgard.

[Visor]

Honestly should've just shot ender or amy and let the day actually progress impo

But if vulgard is a wolf Woo yay I guess

[Visor]

Aight I'm out for a while till football starts and I drown my sorrows

[Totally not Taffy]

Nice happy for u

:bow:

[hollowkatt]

Do you want me to try to explain it better or shall we leave it here?

I would love nothing more than to remain in the dark as to how you arrived at the conclusions that you arrived at.
Unfortunately due diligence requires me to ask you for clarification

[Totally not Taffy]

Well.

I hope I'm wrong on Vulgard.

mood

[Totally not Taffy]

Aight I'm out for a while till football starts and I drown my sorrows

but what if your team wins?

[EnderWiggin]

Tbh I'm kinda on hold until the Pizza thing resolves.

[Totally not Taffy]

I would love nothing more than to remain in the dark as to how you arrived at the conclusions that you arrived at.
Unfortunately due diligence requires me to ask you for clarification

Ok follow me: if I am in your shoes and I am town, then last night the person most vocally townreading me got killed and today several people start voicing scumreads on me. I think at least some of those scumreaders are actually wolves trying to push me, and it very possible that that's one of the reasons the person vocally townreading me got offed. So when I am explicitly asked about why he might have been the NK, I'm going to bring that up.

You did not. You laid out the entire theory of how maybe Spooge was clearing people wolves want dead, but without mentioning yourself as a possibility. I find that scummy, because it looks like you're waiting for someone else to mention it.

[Totally not Taffy]

Tbh I'm kinda on hold until the Pizza thing resolves.

If it was a fake claim I called it in my private thread.

[Csargo]

If it was a fake claim I called it in my private thread.

https://media.tenor.com/pmWk7B5Cyf4AAAAd/bamboozled-backstabbed.gif

[Visor]

but what if your team wins?

The rams? Win? In the 2022 season?

[hollowkatt]

Ok follow me: if I am in your shoes and I am town, then last night the person most vocally townreading me got killed and today several people start voicing scumreads on me. I think at least some of those scumreaders are actually wolves trying to push me, and it very possible that that's one of the reasons the person vocally townreading me got offed. So when I am explicitly asked about why he might have been the NK, I'm going to bring that up.

You did not. You laid out the entire theory of how maybe Spooge was clearing people wolves want dead, but without mentioning yourself as a possibility. I find that scummy, because it looks like you're waiting for someone else to mention it.

interesting theory, I might have to use that.

straight up it never occurred to me to try to take that path/make that argument. I knew I had some votes yesterday, didn't much care about them, so didn't think about trying to use luv to bolster my own position.

spicy though, thanks for future ideas

[Totally not Taffy]

The rams? Win? In the 2022 season?

Where's your team spirit? GO RAMS!

also gn was fun getting tricked can't wait to see the conclusions :2thumbsup:

[dyachei]

was pizza's thing fake?

[dyachei]

actually kind of surprised he didnt detonate on me

[hollowkatt]

Where's your team spirit? GO RAMS!

also gn was fun getting tricked can't wait to see the conclusions :2thumbsup:

Umm.... what if I want the rams to do poorly so the pick we got from them is better? asking for a friend

[Visor]

Umm.... what if I want the rams to do poorly so the pick we got from them is better? asking for a friend

Hey

Go rams AND lions

[Visor]

was pizza's thing fake?

If it's fake I'm annoyed that he's basically held the game hostage since post 1

[dyachei]

If it's fake I'm annoyed that he's basically held the game hostage since post 1

just seems like it's been a while since he posted it

[Cape90]

actually kind of surprised he didnt detonate on me

why would pizza do that given his gameplan? he wanted to kill in the Logic wagon

[dyachei]

why would pizza do that given his gameplan? he wanted to kill in the Logic wagon

he was voting me most of the day

[hollowkatt]

Hey

Go rams AND lions

I can get behind this for sure!
I wish y'all had had a better season, grateful you guys helped Stafford get a ring

[Visor]

Well

What now

[hollowkatt]

Well

What now

we wait till Raskol wakes up and processes things I guess

[Visor]

Vulgard flips W/v where you at

[hollowkatt]

Vulgard flips W/v where you at

if he flips W we look at how he read people and the reasons he gave for doing so. Likewise for V though with a V flip all we can truthfully say is that vulgard believed in his reads. If he flips W though we can look to see why he had those reads and who they may have benefited (or hurt)

I don't think vulgard flips in a way that is meaningful to my reads at this point.

[dyachei]

Vulgard flips W/v where you at

if vulgard flips w, it clears pizza (not to mention having a wolf desperado is shitty)

if vulgard flips v, i dont think it changes much for me

[Csargo]

Visor what do you think of Kage?

[Visor]

Visor what do you think of Kage?

His posts kinda sketched me out, felt a little like rusty wolf lol

[Csargo]

His posts kinda sketched me out, felt a little like rusty wolf lol

yeah

[Askthepizzaguy]

https://i.imgur.com/or0iEuN.png


Please continue to solve the game.

I don't actually do the bold red and say detonate to activate my power.

I haven't activated it yet.

[Askthepizzaguy]

1. I haven't had time to slow read the whole game, iso everyone, and make leans.

2. There was a whole day remaining and I wasn't under a deadline where I had to shoot. I could shoot one minute before end of day if I wanted to.

3. I wanted to see how Vulgard reacted, and everyone else.

You know, like when you're a cop, you hardclaim it, you have a real red peek on someone, you find their wolf buddy, you fake redpeek that person for reactions, and then when they shut down they're outed, and you found 2 wolves instead of one?

Like how Coolkid won season 2 champs finale, like I talk about in my Guide as an example of good PR usage?

Yeah.

Boom hasn't gone off yet because I wanted a few hours of data based on no boom going off but you think it did.

And when I go boom, I don't die unless the target is town.

When I go boom, my target dies and I don't if my target is scum.

In either case, I mail my extra desperado to someone and only they get to know who it is.

They use it on Day Three. I become a vanilla townie after that in either case, and I direct the doctor to protect them if I am alive to do so.

Simple simple.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Now that I have nothing to do for 4 hours, I am reading the game and will actually have reads and leans and shit before I pop off.

[Visor]

sigh

give me the goddamn desperado atpg

[Askthepizzaguy]

sigh

give me the goddamn desperado atpg

Tell me who you want shot and why.

[Visor]

Tell me who you want shot and why.

no

im a wildcard

i just want the shot so either i die a villain or live a hero

[Visor]

https://media.tenor.com/WMLaZSUC_ogAAAAC/wildcard-bitches.gif

:cowboy:

[Visor]

you just need to trust inthe heart of the cards that im a villager

cmon yugi-boy

[Askthepizzaguy]

you just need to trust inthe heart of the cards that im a villager

cmon yugi-boy

If you want the shot, and I haven't shot it yet, then you can say things like "Shoot Ampharos" or "Shoot Bladescape" like you did just after you thought I had to stop posting.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am working on the read on you, I'm slow reading/rereading the game and I'm only 400 posts in.

[Visor]

im only up for like 30 minutes more max

so if u have questions nows the time

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hi Visor! Hope life been kind to you. I think since we last talked. I got married and have a 2,5 year old daughter now. ~:wave:

Nice. Seems like a lot of folks I know from the olden days settled down and made copies.

AKA replacement players for when we all get forcibly subbed out forever.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Tell me who you want shot and why.

Here is your question, I mean

Whats stopping you from repeating the names from earlier, bub?

Tsk tsk tsk should have shot ender or Amy so that we can proceed, as if you couldn't yeet those names.

[Visor]

THE RAMS WON LOL

GO RAMSSSSSSSSSSs

[Visor]

Here is your question, I mean

Whats stopping you from repeating the names from earlier, bub?

Tsk tsk tsk should have shot ender or Amy so that we can proceed, as if you couldn't yeet those names.

holistically i tink u should shoot one of ender or amy cause thats what we're all talking about

heartwise, fuck consensus and just dome the person u believe in ur heart flips wolf

[EnderWiggin]

Given a choice I'd say Amy > Visor > Monty as my preferred shot choices.

[Visor]

Given a choice I'd say Amy > Visor > Monty as my preferred shot choices.

im too cute to die

[EnderWiggin]

im too cute to die

Tru.

But also it'll be more tragic if we kill you.

[Boquise]

i guess "meaningless semantic nitpicking" isn't that strange in a game of mafia but i still hate it

No smh
It was one of your points tbh

I dislike it that you try to make it into a semantics "nitpick" when I am opposing a world view you presented tbh

[Askthepizzaguy]

Given a choice I'd say Amy > Visor > Monty as my preferred shot choices.

Unlikely to want to shoot Monty.

[Askthepizzaguy]

then why did you earlier state that at least 2 wolves were in us inactives?

Because between that point and later on when I made that comment, the wolfy behavior I talked about happened.

[hollowkatt]

kill all of em

:curtain:

ngl this is kinda townie

[hollowkatt]

vote: boq
come do something interesting

also dya is still on my chopping block today. Visor, Taffy, Ender, Cape, Csargo all probably not.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Boquise do you have outstanding questions for me from d1 I didnt answer?

Keep getting bleepin distracted from reading due to real life.

I know youve got d2 questions i didnt get to.

[Askthepizzaguy]

you call this a solving question?

I call it a filler question

That's gonna cost you some scumpoints.

I'm afraid you have zero, sir. Zero scumpoints.

[Askthepizzaguy]

how is faking reads towny?

Loops back to this point again. I might have finally got back to where I started reading the game again.


I swear no matter the game, you always say I am weird bronana. This is easily the towniest I have been with you, but I am extremely biased, but then again, that chris 17er game isn't a hard bar to jump over :p.

In a roundabout way, I think this makes you kind of susp

IDK you were WAY more excited about playing in the last totalwar game we both towned in (I might be lying and I think you found me towny there while everyone else was calling me weird...)
Cape90 show me

Which game?

[Csargo]

ATPG do you have thoughts on Kage or have you read anything they've posted?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Town is allowed to be wrong. You are allowed to be repeatedly wrong. Being wrong is not the same as "ruining the game". If your reads are bad this game, and the rest of us don't help you make better reads, then the resulting loss is on us. Contrary to Asks' throwaway joke about having to find four wolves, it's not actually necessary for all townies to find wolves in order to win. It can be just as important to point out faulty logic in another's reasoning (they might be a wolf or they might be on the wrong path), or to provide helpful meta on someone so another doesn't get lost in a lolwrong tunnel, or to recognise a good case by someone else and support it. It's also not necessary to win in order to enjoy a game. Also look at it like this: if you are never wrong as town, it becomes impossible to play as a wolf.

Whenever you came into MU specchat during chams, several people fell over themselves to get your reads on the games. You are respected. You even got a 3/3 iirc. Don't let a few bad games get you down.

I believe Taffy spewed themselves not wolf in this post.

Taffy not connected to any wolf who talks about me in wolf chat, basically, and there's like a zero percent chance that it is deliberately designed to appear that way.

[Askthepizzaguy]

ATPG do you have thoughts on Kage or have you read anything they've posted?

I am reading the whole game slowly, as you can see from the posts I am quoting.

By the most recent posted quote, Kage hadn't done anything wolfy, and hadn't posted a whole lot.

Rusty or not, Kage was a good wolf when he played. Not unfindable. I call him sexy Kagemusha for a reason, and it's from a game I found him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have 7 townies right now not including myself.

I am including kage in that list until I can find evidence he's woofin it or partnered or agendaed or scummy in any way.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It doesn't matter whether he's faking the reads. His initial read on Ender was premature and almost everything he has brought up is NAI for Ender. But it's early game. Ime Asks juggles people in and out of POE/towncore continuously, just to see how they (and the other players) respond. Rinse, repeat until all the pieces fit.

It's a process very similar to coldreading; you start with something that's just statistically likely and the reactions you get from your audience lead you to the correct answer.

I am not sussing him at this point, but even if I were I think this is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter what order we yeet the wolves in, so on the off chance you're wrong and he's town you should try to find the others first.

You've never played with me, so that's not what I am doing but that's probably what it looks like from the outside.

The reads are in flux but compare it to a chess analysis engine which is very, very old and very very slow, so it's behaving like a human grandmaster instead of rapidly coming to the maximum correct move.

It sees a position it thinks is strong, suggests moves that lead to it... and then when it sees refutations by the opponent, decides that position is no good, tries a different position to see if that one is stronger, and continues doing that at the speed of a snail trying to make its way through molasses, until it decides this position also sucks, but on the third or fourth attempt at finding a good move, it sees a strong position that more likely finds wolves.

However, it still doesn't see the mate. It usually doesn't see the mate until near LYLO.

Chessmaster 3000 era chess engine, on the oldest possible processor it can run on, and that's me analyzing games.

Takes me literal days or weeks to decide the endgame wolf is a wolf, and to find certain townies as town also takes days sometimes.

When I post my reads and it looks wacko because the towncore is moving down and the scum suspects are moving up in a manner no one else understands because no one follows a dozen solving processes one after the other on every player slowly until the game is solved.

The analysis engine gets more and more accurate (usually) the more it cogitates but the first few attempts at analysis almost always suck and need to be checked carefully for any part of it that was actually true, before moving on to a better move and solve attempt.

Don't want to say, accuse 4 names, hit 2 correctly, then abandon those 2 names because you decided to townread the other two names.

Any accurate reads at all during even the shitty party of analysis, if valid, should be carried over to the next solve attempt, a piece at a time.

Sometimes it takes three, four, or five solve attempts to get to one where, after exhaustive analysis, it can be determined that someone who was townread in the past four analyses actually shouldn't be towncore because I've found too many other townies elsewhere I believe in more, and I found wolves that are likely to be paired with them, and I can see the wolf plan more clearly.

Thats why the names bounce all around yet it looks like I was confident the whole time and then increasingly so, while throwing out tons of reads.

I'm confident even on the first pass I'll find a good solid four townies or so, easy.

Making a true masonry of four is already a massive upset to the game balance. Even if the rest of my reads suck, if those townreads are good, it doesn't matter that the first pass, first analysis, first suspicion scattershot, first attempt at building a wolfcore, was terribad.

Doesn't matter, because if those townreads carry over to the second scattershot and analysis and they were right, then it makes the second attempt more accurate.

That's why you see lots of names bounce around at first, then settle into positions, then more settle, then very few bounce around, then I'm moving one name around the list at a time, not more than one.

One person I suspect, who then gets killed or townread and put at the top of the pile, pushing everyone down.

That's the process.

The more I analyze, the fewer names are in motion or the reads dependent on how other people flip, and fewer universes remain, and fewer possible scum teams.

That's why it's like the lotto balls. The thing is just a jumble of nonsense at first, then a number comes out and stays put. One by one, numbers come out and stay put, until you get the daily lotto numbers.

It's an analogy but I'm not making the reads for the reactions, the reactions are making the reads, and the questioning and pushing and interactions create the reactions.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh yeah, spooge is a really whatever slot I wouldn't mind yeeting and which I feel has a pretty decent chance of actually flipping wolf. Might go there if we don't go Logic.


Main reason I think this is that his reads look weird to me. He has Logic/Vulgard/ATPG as his set of wolfreads, and I think that's a really strange grouping to have as your wolfreads, particularly me/ATPG as I feel like our interactions cannot be perceived as W/W. Spooge, if you read this, please explain that part. If these are all independent wolfreads, then I also think they're weird and I'd like you to explain more.

All of this is extremely wolfy and I think because the man is capable of posting what reads like pureness from his heart for a post or two at a time (thus making him a good wolf) the entire rest of his iso is stuff like this.

Attacking townies in the ways wolves attack townies.

His reads are pro wolf and his arguments are wolfy and the way people are defending him is wolfy.

I want him flipped today.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A few posts of emotional soul baring is not hard to fake at all for a good wolf.

Having an iso devoid of wolfing is hard to fake. A lot of people in this game have one of those.

[Askthepizzaguy]

maybe for this too since it is a bit on the nose if Taffy is wolf, unless there are 3ps this game

It is mechanically impossible for there to be third parties in this game due to my role.

Cape90 and everyone else.

Because if I shoot someone and they're not townie or mafia, what happens to me?

Proof we're in a binary universe, as soon as I shoot a wolf, or I die today. You can cross that off the possibilities list.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm gonna be the guy who asks: what wolfy banter, and if they're already playing defense isn't the game basically about "sheep pizza, win"? because I'm leery that it can possibly be that easy.

Read between Ender and Vulgard.

And sure, Spooge was town and Amy is probs town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I just spent the last 14 hours playing a 24-year-old Video game, AMA

Anyway, to more relevant thoughts, Visor voting for me is the only one I would call an indictment.

There are a handful of people that can soulread me correctly every time, and visor is on that list.

Ladd I think should be able to read me correctly by now, but I can forgive him at this point.

Pizza having sus but not committing to it is about right for him, so I'm giving him a day pass (as if I could be the pebble that brings down a mountain on him)

Dya being comfortable? on day 1 I think is their wolfy meta.

TLDR
After I flip villager, nuke visor.

Vote: Visor

I dig it, dead man.

I'll be with you shortly if not.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This reads to me like a wolfy "don't rock the boat and yeet a villager that no one will be upset to lose.

I especially dig this, dead man.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The visor meta is very specific in how they are treating my slot. I can consistently solve a couple of other players in the same manner.

If I gotta die first to prove the point, then by all means, yeet me and follow up with visor. I'm telling you, he's not treating me like he's suspicious of me, he's treating me like he knows I'm an easy yeet.

Alright.

I see it.

Visor's on the wolf team, probably with Vulgard and Enderwiggin but not Amy.

[Askthepizzaguy]

i have an immediate concern w/ how logic's reentered the thread but i'm gonna sit on it for a bit to see if it's self-correcting

mostly posting this because it's fun to watch logic squirm

This post is too (negative adjective) to be a wolf.

This does not help Amy get townread or advance the wolf team win condition.

I'm trying to be critical without being personal. This post is bad for both alignments, but it's also more likely to come from the town alignment of no TMI about Logic.

[Askthepizzaguy]

yeah ok fine

i don't like how logic went straight to "visor is a wolf" without even trying to engage with the read on him

if someone i thought had a really good read on me (e.g. dya) was incorrectly wolfreading me, i'd do everything in my power to figure out where the read is coming from and whether it has a good foundation before i'd write them off as a wolf. not once in my life have i been so confident in someone else's amy-reading abilities as to jump straight to "if X is wrong on my alignment, they're wolfing" without any intermediary steps

Wrong but believable.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think Logic is fully in wolf meta.

But I also am noting no push back against the wagon, like almost zilch.

This kind of level zero read on the game state just happened from an accomplished wolf in another game.

Seeing it from people I respect and know better than to do as town is bothersome and it should only come from wolf!them.

This ignores all possibilities of bussing on day one, which in a game with four wolves, is viable. It's rarely viable at lower numbers, and if wolves have a PR it can spew one of them town long enough to, say role cop or vanillize or roleblock or whatnot.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also beyond that point Amy, Logic ignoring me entirely in his reactions to the push feels off.

So previous post calls a townie a wolf, then gives reasons to be wary, and in the very next post does the wolfy "feels off".

This is the wolfy way wolfy wolves attack villagers they can attack. Period.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Idk how to make reads lol.

The wolfy lol in the correct scummy context.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Where is everyone I am here to fux.

......U SUX?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Look I know it might be all like "wow even this random guy thinks Logic is mafia" too many people suspect Logic. This guy is sus. Opportunistic. Blah blah blah.

But like, Logic has been wolfy pretty much since their opening post and has not stopped being wolfy. Ladd is not likely to bus Logic that bluntly because it gives a teammate zero out. If Ladd is town and wasn't super sure he would not post that way. So I am treating them as hard different.

If there is anyone that might be a teammate of Logic's that's kinda being a bit meh about the whole Logic shit it's either Pizza or Visor. I have had a fair few moments of reading Visor's content where I was a little bit perturbed. But on the whole he's better than most.

My last readslist remains valid. I have no updates to the reads within it.

So worlds here are wolves killed spooge to discredit me, or wolves killed spooge because he correctly sussed a wolf.

Ladd is one of those names but I've yet to see even one alignment indicative post from Ladd

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, it's pretty clear I softed a PR and I am town so the wolves discrediting me idea is false from the get go, so Spooge found a wolf.

Vulgard would be the one he found, because he missed everywhere else for quite a bit I believe.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes and I think Boq has been kinda wolfy. As per my readslist.

I am super sketch on you. Like, looking at the wolf reads of a town and attacking them for not making sense as a world together is such a typical reach for mafia to make on town I just am probs gonna suspect you until you single handedly pelt a mafia because of it frankly. Good luck friend!
luvs2spooge

Sweet spoogey jesus, thanks for calling it out among the many, many, many wolfy things that Vulgard has done this game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

One day we will come to a mafia world where sharing nuanced thought about a player is not considered wolfy, but that day isn't today tbh

So until then, I will return to be level 0 and join in with the pitchfork tbh

There's town Boq.

[Askthepizzaguy]

i don't think this is particularly aggro for boq

that's why i like the responses

This is a good read I think, in response to spooge.

Good reads or bad takes are not alignment indicative, why they are presented is.

Amy's why is villagery.

[Csargo]

A significant portion of dya's iso is either defending/explaining why logic/ampharos/vulgard are town. Is this normal? Does town Dya just defend their townreads a lot? Dya called cape and taffy v, but I didn't really see much else.

ender/hk/visor(?) woof leans, most of that centered around hk. I didn't see much about ender except can't read them and counter wagon. Visor lackluster(:boxedin:)

Extremely narrow focus says woof to me. There's a lot of chatting with other players, but not really any takes on them that I saw. It honestly feels like I've missed reading some of their posts somewhere. The arguments defending ampharos/vulgard are reasonable good content-wise imo. I tend to agree with stuff like ampharos's demeanor, thoughts on why vulgard's townie, or hk being different.

Is this just how Dya plays as town? Did I miss some posts somewhere, because isoing here sucks?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I couldn't tell you how Dya plays as town or wolf, even though we've played together a bit, its mostly been mashes.

Those are crap for reading someone in a slow game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

ender/hk/visor

I dont think this is exactly a team, but all are in my bottom 6.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Visor/Kagemusha slightly paired tbh

I doubt it but I think I remember visor trying to pocket Kage.

So, same activity but different alignment read for it. Wolfy person involved is Visor.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You were one of the few people suspecting me who talked to me rather than about me and I really appreciated that at the time. You're being a lot less tunnelly this game than I would have expected. How do you feel you've evolved as a player in the months between?

Question a wolf probably doesn't think to bother asking here.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Nothing can ever truly unpair me and Pizza. We have done some epic distancing in the past.

How about me shooting you?

[Askthepizzaguy]

If Logic's town we just yeet visor for funsies. prob dya as well.

ayyy

thats amore.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I also wonder why pizza just ignored(?) Logic for the most part and didn't put them on their woof leans

Because he literally never did anything wolfy at all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay, I also don't really think that game is a good barometer of what Logic's saying tho. And I don't recall any other games in recent memory.

This is not a w/w interaction with visor and everything else Csargo has said about Visor has not been of a distancing or bussing nature, the suspicion reads pure and organic.

[Csargo]

I am reading the whole game slowly, as you can see from the posts I am quoting.

By the most recent posted quote, Kage hadn't done anything wolfy, and hadn't posted a whole lot.

Rusty or not, Kage was a good wolf when he played. Not unfindable. I call him sexy Kagemusha for a reason, and it's from a game I found him.

Let me know what your conclusion is. I kinda think Kage could be a woof, but it for pretty old meta reasons, which probably aren't applicable anymore. Maybe I dunno.

[Csargo]

Let me know what your conclusion is. I kinda think Kage could be a woof, but it for pretty old meta reasons, which probably aren't applicable anymore. Maybe I dunno.

Reading this back it sounds pretty stupid to me though :clown:

[Askthepizzaguy]

somehow I'm less concerned with how you got to your reads and more concerned with how easily you're handing me a town read.
hollowkatt

It's time to ditch this process from your town solving if you're town here, broheim.

I've seen this be absolutely terrible as a result enough times that I'm pleading with you to consider yeeting this as a process.

All it does is cause you to suss townies as far as I have seen. Repeatedly, an in great numbers.

It might have caught a wolf for you once. You got lucky.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Let me know what your conclusion is. I kinda think Kage could be a woof, but it for pretty old meta reasons, which probably aren't applicable anymore. Maybe I dunno.

He's not trying to get townreads and doesn't know whats going on and isnt involved in creating a narrative.

He can he a disconnected and Ignore strategy wolf at best.

Until he does stuff that is wolfy someone can explain to me, he's town, especially because I have six wolves and there are only four.

[Askthepizzaguy]

He can be* a

I won't ninja edit even a typo.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In order of most likely to know

Pizza

Monty
Csargo

Big gap

Dya (maybe)
Amy (maybe)

kinda surprised that you didnt have me in your read list here tbh

Reading incomprehension towntell for Boquise.

[Vulgard]

Damn you, I stayed up later than I should've because I expected us both to flip and I was ready to apologize. I was aware that desperado isn't a suicide bomber but still.

Well, if you still want to kill me, whatever, idk what I'm supposed to do about that fact. You're still doing that thing where you call everything I post wolfy and I'm town so all I can say is that I kinda want to flip so you can prove yourself wrong. You are definitely town, and you are definitely trying to follow a thorough process, but being on the other end of this train deprives me of options.

[Askthepizzaguy]

enderwiggin

This was my other early wolfread and i dont have time to catch up

Convo with pizza early on felt like he was trying to back off from the fight in a wolfy way without actually conceding the point iyam

I have seen wolves do it a ton of times when they dont want to get in a fight with specific players

Ayyy there we go

Villaging from Ladd. That took a while.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Damn you, I stayed up later than I should've because I expected us both to flip and I was ready to apologize. I was aware that desperado isn't a suicide bomber but still.

Well, if you still want to kill me, whatever, idk what I'm supposed to do about that fact. You're still doing that thing where you call everything I post wolfy and I'm town so all I can say is that I kinda want to flip so you can prove yourself wrong. You are definitely town, and you are definitely trying to follow a thorough process, but being on the other end of this train deprives me of options.

Hey, so like, you're alive, and I've been posting tons of analysis.

Any solving thoughts about who the wolves are?

[Vulgard]

I just gave my legacy solve before I thought would die, I more or less adhere to it now.

I kinda want to see Amy respond to my case. Or... to see people acknowledge it at all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I dont think thats what logic did?

Yeah thats not w/w either with Wiggin.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Logic (3): Amy, Ender, Vulgard
Ender (3): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei
Visor (2): Montmo, Logic
HK (1): Taffy
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Boquise: (1): Visor
Ampharos (1): Boquise
Vulgard(1): luv2spooge

Critical decision point for wolves here if Ender or Visor are wolves.

Also Vulgard, because of how many people died pointing at him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Logic (4): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Renata
Ender (4): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic
Visor (1): Montmo
HK (1): Taffy
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Boquise: (1): Visor
Ampharos (1): Boquise
Ladd (1): luv2spooge

EOD in 1 hour and half

So I can see them all together.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Must

Resist

Scumleaning

Cape

For

Hedging.

(I've gone down this path before.)

So, let's talk about Vulgard.

[Askthepizzaguy]

please correct all "she"s in the previous posts to "they"s

If Ive done that, same.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Montys lack of weirdness is weirding me out

What a terrible take.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Logic

three-way tie

Can we forever stop doing this as villagers.

Vote Logic for being wolfy, not to create ties.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ender (4): Ladd, Csargo, dyachei, Logic
Ampharos (4): Boquise, Visor, Renata, Montmo
Logic (4): Amy, Ender, Vulgard, Taffy
Luv2spooge (1): HK
Renata (1): Kagemusha
Ladd (1): luv2spooge

EOD in 8 minutes.


Vote: EnderWiggin

I like this better then Amy

Logic is meh

critical point.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have to go onsite. I won't be around for the end end of the day.

Legacy reads if I keep being tipped over:

The "Actual cinnamon roll innocent and should be protected" pile:
luvs2spooge - (Yes I am putting luvs here, you can't stop me.)
Vulgard
Totally not Taffy

The "I have gut reason/thread reason to think they're town and despite recent doubt I still kinda believe it?":
Ampharos

The "Mildly towny but shouldn't be trusted" pile:
Hollowkatt
dyachei

The "Stop wearing questionmarks" null pile
Visor
Renata
Kagemusha

The "I hate their read on me but might be omgus" pile:
Csargo
Cape90
Ladd

The "I think they're wolfy but not really convinced of myself" pile:
Montmorency
Askthepizzaguy
Boquise

The "Wolfy post milord" pile:
Logic

I think I'm going to kill Enderwiggin today after I kill Vulgard.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Enderwiggin

[Askthepizzaguy]

i mostly hate these wagons cuz i think logic and amy are v

The wolf team does not usually all do the Defend strategy, so one wolf bussing makes sense.

Still, I think the others have been more wolfy and Im not townreading Hollowkatt

Doesnt have to be dyachei it just is likely to be when 3 of my bottom six are wolves outside of Dyachei and the others flip town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

i basically dont remember anything hk has done this game and I think that's wolfy for him but I should have come to this realization with more than 5 mins to EOD

Can be distancing as well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

vote: logic

Meh

Might switch to ender but meh

This is not villaging.

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, I think I'm just going to switch back and leave it there. GTH you have a bigger chance of being a tonal misread than Logic does.

vote: Logic

This vote is wolfy, the reasons arent given late entry to the game.

Just sucks when townies dont know whats going on.

If this is a wolf I am grumpy because you need to play the game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If Ender turns up wolf ever this EoD going to be fun.

This one post threatens to wipe away all reasons I have to townread Renata completely.

The partner analysis here if Wiggin is a wolf is exactly as strong as the townread so far.

I want to believe this is just a really ill advised comment.

[Raskolnikov]

GM friendos, here is your morning tally (I'll bring coffee in a few):

Ender (5): Renata, Vulgard, Ladd, Boquise, ATPG
Amy (2): Visor, Ender
HK (2): Kagemusha, Taffy
Visor (1): HK
Vulgard (1): Amy
Kagemusha (1): Cape

[Askthepizzaguy]

ugh, a part of me thinks ender is town but I just do not want Amy to go over at all

Given how many people said Logic was wolfy (for reasons I never once understood or agreed with)

I can understand why Cape would consolidate onto him to save a townread in Amy and if he doubted his own case on Ender.

Ender is a good wolf, he does that to you.

[Vulgard]

Let me bus my partners!

[EnderWiggin]

This kind of level zero read on the game state just happened from an accomplished wolf in another game.

Seeing it from people I respect and know better than to do as town is bothersome and it should only come from wolf!them.

This ignores all possibilities of bussing on day one, which in a game with four wolves, is viable. It's rarely viable at lower numbers, and if wolves have a PR it can spew one of them town long enough to, say role cop or vanillize or roleblock or whatnot.

Hey Pizza.

I love you and all.

But can you please respectfully stop with the "If he was town he would do better."

Especially because that level 0 read was (mostly) correct even if I took it the wrong path.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am granting my second desperado shot to someone I townread in green.

The shot I will make is silent. You will not know who I shot if I die instead of my target.

However, it should be obvious who my top candidates are. So I am shooting within those names.

Going to fire it shortly for real this time and then go to sleep so I dont have to lose sleep over it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hey Pizza.

I love you and all.

But can you please respectfully stop with the "If he was town he would do better."

Especially because that level 0 read was (mostly) correct even if I took it the wrong path.

Sure.

You won't need to deal with me in this game for much longer anyway.

[EnderWiggin]

How about me shooting you?

Honestly?

Tell me who you want me to yeet afterwards then do it.

I'll make town yeet that person for you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Let me bus my partners!

Don't know why you'd troll me like this as town instead of solving the game.

[EnderWiggin]

So, let's talk about Vulgard.

Vulgard's hedging I ignored because they kept coming to the same reads as me after hedging.

Sue me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Honestly?

Tell me who you want me to yeet afterwards then do it.

I'll make town yeet that person for you.

Askthepizzaguy
luvs2spooge
Logic
Montmorency
Cape90
Ampharos
Totally not Taffy
Kagemusha
Csargo - not with Katt
Boquise
Ladd

--------------------------

Renata solely because of that godawful post about Ender.
dyachei can be bussing Ender
Hollowkatt- independently wolfy
EnderWiggin- I think your leans list is killing nothing but villagers for a very long time
Visor- incredibly wolfy game so far
Vulgard- trolling me, gaslit me, insulted me, entire iso is scumtells.

4 wolves in my bottom six names.

[EnderWiggin]

I would highly recommend making worlds where I'm town before shooting me Pizza.

It'll be very good for you, trust.

[EnderWiggin]

Because in your POE rn there are like...

2 people where your read is half based on me being wolf.

And man that feels bad.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vulgard's hedging I ignored because they kept coming to the same reads as me after hedging.

Sue me.

What's the purpose of this last bit?

As town you know i cannot even damage you if I shot you.

You shouldnt be frustrated with me when the only person that dies is me and then thats one less vote for you.

The more hostile people treat me for no reason the less inclined I am to give them more chances to explain to me their worldview and why theyre townie.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would highly recommend making worlds where I'm town before shooting me Pizza.

It'll be very good for you, trust.

You mean like the world where there's 5 other names I suspect?

[EnderWiggin]

I will defend Renata with my life, if I must. Vulgard I believe is town but there's been enough doubt about it and enough people including Luvs who pointed at em that I will believe I could be wrong there.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Because in your POE rn there are like...

2 people where your read is half based on me being wolf.

And man that feels bad.

Who cares, I'll be too dead to actually yeet them for it if I shot you, wouldn't I?

What is this undermining my confidence ploy you're doing right now?

Why would you care at all about how I'm about to remove myself from play and stop accusing those people I am falsely associating with you and you as well?

[EnderWiggin]

What's the purpose of this last bit?

As town you know i cannot even damage you if I shot you.

You shouldnt be frustrated with me when the only person that dies is me and then thats one less vote for you.

The more hostile people treat me for no reason the less inclined I am to give them more chances to explain to me their worldview and why theyre townie.

The last bit is me being exasperated because I've already explained why I townread Vulgard.

And acknowledged I can be wrong.

And yet people still come back at me with effectively "Why did you not sus this about Vulgard???"

I shouldn't be snarky, though, sorry.

[EnderWiggin]

Who cares, I'll be too dead to actually yeet them for it if I shot you, wouldn't I?

What is this undermining my confidence ploy you're doing right now?

Why would you care at all about how I'm about to remove myself from play and stop accusing those people I am falsely associating with you and you as well?

Because you're a good reader of the game.

And I would like to carry your legacy if you do shoot me.

Which is hard if some of those reads exist in worlds I know are false.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Tired of being trolled, gaslit, and all this fake concern about how terrible it would be if I shot wrong in a guessing game and the only consequence was me dying.

None of this makes sense from a town POV from anyone doing it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Because you're a good reader of the game.

And I would like to carry your legacy if you do shoot me.

Which is hard if some of those reads exist in worlds I know are false.

Why would you want to carry the legacy of someone who you think is accusing a bunch of townies?

[EnderWiggin]

You are allowed to be wrong Pizza.

I am not mad at you for that.

And I'm sorry if any of that came across as any of what you just said.

I shouldn't have come in here with any of that.

(Hells, I have already been terribly wrong on D1 so.)