Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Montmorency]

Cass, could you switch atheotes and BSmith? There's no need for atheotes and Monstr to compete.


I've been honest in my reads. I've tried not to overstate any reaction I've had, or to oversell any read I've arrived at.

If it really looks to you like I've been hedging, then I'd say you've managed to miss the whole point and drive of my posting in this game.

One thing to avoid overstatement, another to offer qualification of more or less every read, lean, and component thereof.

You definitely didn't do this in Futuramafia, at any rate. And honesty is beside the point. You just pointed out in this page that good scumming can be honest.

[Zack]

The beauty of that game is that I didn't try to abuse it at all.

When I came after you it was genuine scumhunting.

The paranoia was real. (https://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/2P7Lmhk8qkh)

who the hell hates good will hunting?

[Zack]

Nothing. I'm just waxing lyrical on the truth.

this whole exchange was bizarre

[Zack]

sketchballs in d1 so they have to elect you?

townies in d2 so its probably legit?

_the rest_ in d3?

:hide:

[Zack]

monty and tak are both lolbussers so their awkward lack of any negativity towards each other almost makes me want to say monty is town?

[Winston Hughes]

One thing to avoid overstatement, another to offer qualification of more or less every read, lean, and component thereof.

I read this (http://lesswrong.com/lw/ka/hold_off_on_proposing_solutions/). I'm trying to correct for my own bias.


You definitely didn't do this in Futuramafia, at any rate.

I played badly in Futurama because I was too reactive. I'm trying to do better here.


And honesty is beside the point. You just pointed out in this page that good scumming can be honest.

The best scumming is honest, that's true. Faking those moments of genuine honesty is really hard.

[Winston Hughes]

who the hell hates good will hunting?

Oh, now you're begging me to spamwar.

Worst. Movie, Ever.

[Zack]

before doing any re-reads or anything, just lazily going off my memory

zack
Zack

essentially mechanically clear
BSmith
Cass

essentially tonally clear
Visor
Monstr

i think they voted wolves when it mattered?
Jabbz
Atheotes
Dice (?)

lolcleared?
Monty

i don't think they fit in above categories?
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat
Al Sips
Winston

[Zack]

Oh, now you're begging me to spamwar.

Worst. Movie, Ever.

You have bad taste, but it's not your fault.

[Montmorency]

monty and tak are both lolbussers so their awkward lack of any negativity towards each other almost makes me want to say monty is town?

I've only bussed under Pizza AFAIK. Then again, I can't hardly remember scumming without Pizza.

As I said D3, Barto's bussing strategy last game seemed to have come from the Pizza sub-in. He certainly didn't bus in Kingslayer. And he did start with the shading (of me), in late D3.

[Zack]

I've been thinking a lot this game about how maybe I've been too quick to clear monstr because of heroes, but I didn't really pay attention to him in heroes since we were teammates, and I don't want to read heroes.

But I think he had no reason to defend cuth the way he did as a wolf and I hate it when people keep townreads in POE because of dumb fear about their skill.

[Zack]

I've only bussed under Pizza AFAIK. Then again, I can't hardly remember scumming without Pizza.

As I said D3, Barto's bussing strategy last game seemed to have come from the Pizza sub-in. He certainly didn't bus in Kingslayer. And he did start with the shading (of me), in late D3.

I think it was Ikea mafia, where el barto voted his teammates a lot?

I remember making a similar point about him voting teammates in the MTGS game on MU, which was before any game you're referring to.

[Winston Hughes]

The ridiculously contrived plot?

The horrible elitism of the whole thing?

Minnie Driver?

:rtwno:

[Zack]

but I did say it's a lol reason and you're not really clear or a townread, just sitting barely outside the poe for now

[Winston Hughes]

That bar scene with the long haired bully off Oz...

https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/smilies/threadshit.gif (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/smilies/threadshit.gif.html)

[Zack]

ok winston what do you think of that list. ignore me and you, don't want to hear a smartass answer.

talk to me baby

[Zack]

I never really understood what "how do you like them apples" even means or why people think it's such a great, memorable line

[Winston Hughes]

Visor and Monstr in the same category feels wrong.

If Monstr is scum here it's some new level I've never seen before; if Visor is scum it's a little above his handicap.

[Winston Hughes]

I never really understood what "how do you like them apples" even means or why people think it's such a great, memorable line

It's a terrible line, in a terrible scene, in a terrible movie.

[Visor]

Visor and Monstr in the same category feels wrong.

If Monstr is scum here it's some new level I've never seen before; if Visor is scum it's a little above his handicap.

'handicap' :stare:

[Zack]

Visor and Monstr in the same category feels wrong.

If Monstr is scum here it's some new level I've never seen before; if Visor is scum it's a little above his handicap.

You haven't played with monstr, i have

[Jabbz]

before doing any re-reads or anything, just lazily going off my memory

i think they voted wolves when it mattered?
Jabbz
Atheotes
Dice (?)


If you mean read scum as scum and town town, then put vote on scum leading it to a tie which was broken shortly thereafter, sure. This dismissive type of response is irritating for a number of reasons, as I'm pretty sure I've cleared myself as town quite thoroughly. What else would I expect from you however, as you still seem to be suffering from a severe case of "my ass hurts and it's your fault" itis.

[Visor]

If you mean read scum as scum and town town, then put vote on scum leading it to a tie which was broken shortly thereafter, sure. This dismissive type of response is irritating for a number of reasons, as I'm pretty sure I've cleared myself as town quite thoroughly. What else would I expect from you however, as you still seem to be suffering from a severe case of "my ass hurts and it's your fault" itis.

...?

whats with the stick in the ass about this post of all things?

[Zack]

but that's your only quibble?

no speech about how the way it's constructed is an artful manipulation of the collective psyche of the esteemed players in this venerable game we call mafia/werewolf/an exercise in frustration?

no belligerent rant on what i said about monty on this page? was practically baiting you

[Zack]

If you mean read scum as scum and town town, then put vote on scum leading it to a tie which was broken shortly thereafter, sure. This dismissive type of response is irritating for a number of reasons, as I'm pretty sure I've cleared myself as town quite thoroughly. What else would I expect from you however, as you still seem to be suffering from a severe case of "my ass hurts and it's your fault" itis.

um lol? you grossly misinterpreted literally everything about that post

whatever fits your tired narrative that i'm a big meanie out to get you

[Visor]

its literally just a reads list...

bizarre

[Winston Hughes]

To me, Jabbz looks much townier than you're giving him credit for.

And obviously I think you're being ridiculous putting me in the last group.

Remind me, why is Monty lolcleared?

[Zack]

...?

whats with the stick in the ass about this post of all things?

dude this is what i was talking about d1

he seriously has some problem with me and it's really obnoxious

[Winston Hughes]

You haven't played with monstr, i have

He's that good?

[Zack]

To me, Jabbz looks much townier than you're giving him credit for.

And obviously I think you're being ridiculous putting me in the last group.

Remind me, why is Monty lolcleared?
I don't get it, voting wolves when it matters IS a lot of credit...

why is it ridiculous? how many wolves have you pushed/lynched?

it's like 2 posts above the list

[Zack]

He's that good?

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/1056-Mafia-Universe-Awards-2016-Nominations?p=707524&viewfull=1#post707524


Nominate monstrman best wolf performance for heroes minimash



Nominate monstrman best wolf performance for heroes minimash

seconded


second



Nominate monstrman best wolf performance for heroes minimash

second



Nominate monstrman best wolf performance for heroes minimash

second

I think he's very likely town, but characterizing him as a tier below visorslash at wolfing is insulting to him

[Montmorency]

I probably never ISO Winston today/D4.

Also, keep this in mind again: it's a longer game. Without any extra nightkills or lost lynches or third-party muddling, we have 5 lynches (12/10/8/6/4) over this one. Keep in mind for speculating on mafia motivations.

[Visor]

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/1056-Mafia-Universe-Awards-2016-Nominations?p=707524&viewfull=1#post707524











I think he's very likely town, but characterizing him as a tier below visorslash at wolfing is insulting to him

insulting to me more like it :smug:

[Visor]

monstr is a solid wolf

he tends to get angry ATE as wolf especially when he isn't being listened to

whereas when he is town he gets more despondent

wolf monstr is more about getting his way

i think he's been fine this game

[Zack]

I probably never ISO Winston today/D4.

Also, keep this in mind again: it's a longer game. Without any extra nightkills or lost lynches or third-party muddling, we have 5 lynches (12/10/8/6/4) over this one. Keep in mind for speculating on mafia motivations.

how could you know the number of lynches for sure? you're just assuming f3?

how many partners do you have? quick don't lie

[dicetosser1]

That bar scene with the long haired bully off Oz...

https://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll235/WinstonHughes/smilies/threadshit.gif (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/WinstonHughes/media/smilies/threadshit.gif.html)


well Ben Affleck DOES do a very good impression of an ape scratching his head in that scene

i liked that movie excpet for the bit where will starts crying for being told its not his fault. shakes head




To me, Jabbz looks much townier than you're giving him credit for.

And obviously I think you're being ridiculous putting me in the last group.

Remind me, why is Monty lolcleared?


If monty is lock cleared someone had better explain it to me. cause i dont think so at all

[Visor]

i expect monstrs play to be different this game if he was wolfing with Barto and Choxorn

unless he realised he would just have to bus his way to winning

[Zack]

insulting to me more like it :smug:
1. crunkus
2. monstrman
3. everyone else in some order
4. a ham sandwhich
5. visorslash

[Zack]

well Ben Affleck DOES do a very good impression of an ape scratching his head in that scene

i liked that movie excpet for the bit where will starts crying for being told its not his fault. shakes head






If monty is lock cleared someone had better explain it to me. cause i dont think so at all

what... that's the best scene in the movie

[Montmorency]

how could you know the number of lynches for sure? you're just assuming f3?

how many partners do you have? quick don't lie

Dude read this:

Without any extra nightkills or lost lynches or third-party muddling, we have 5 lynches (12/10/8/6/4) over this one.

I even gave the daily player-count to avert reflexive accusations like yours.

[Zack]

also just want to point out there is a HUGE difference between lolclearing someone and lock clearing them

[Zack]

Dude read this:

Without any extra nightkills or lost lynches or third-party muddling, we have 5 lynches (12/10/8/6/4) over this one.

I even gave the daily player-count to avert reflexive accusations like yours.

no, I don't get why you're assuming no mislynches goes to f3

[Visor]

1. crunkus
2. monstrman
3. everyone else in some order
4. a ham sandwhich
5. visorslash

crunkus on top, where's gadarene

[Montmorency]

no, I don't get why you're assuming no mislynches goes to f3

What? I just explained the progression for no F3 - only F4. And I didn't say anything about mislynches - this is the maximum possible remaining number of lynches assuming no ones wins before that, there are no extra nightkills, there is a lynch every day, and there are no third-parties to confuse parity.

[Zack]

crunkus on top, where's gadarene
right above ham sandwich

[Winston Hughes]

I think he's very likely town, but characterizing him as a tier below visorslash at wolfing is insulting to him

That's not what I meant at all. I meant that if he's scum faking town here, he's doing it better than I've ever seen it done before.

What I meant with Visor is that, while this would be an impressive scum game for him, it wouldn't be a jaw-dropper.

[Zack]

oh, I guess I misunderstood what "lost lynches" meant

it was all a reaction test tho

[Montmorency]

oh, I guess I misunderstood what "lost lynches" meant

it was all a reaction test tho

It was a social experiment.

[Zack]

That's not what I meant at all. I meant that if he's scum faking town here, he's doing it better than I've ever seen it done before.

What I meant with Visor is that, while this would be an impressive scum game for him, it wouldn't be a jaw-dropper.

whatever this is a silly nitpick, i think they are both town, you can pontificate about the SPECIFIC LEVEL OF TOWNINESS all you want

[Zack]

monstr has been browsing the forum without posting, open and shut case johnson

[dicetosser1]

So Zack you gonna answer the Question i asked of you a while back?

[Monstrdude]

What am I supposed to say when people are arguing about my scum game

It's nice to have it respected and all but I've done at least 10 things I can't do as a wolf this game

Voting Barto isn't one of them because I could have pulled off a somewhat similar bus

[Zack]

So Zack you gonna answer the Question i asked of you a while back?

Can you repeat it?

[Zack]

What am I supposed to say when people are arguing about my scum game

It's nice to have it respected and all but I've done at least 10 things I can't do as a wolf this game

Voting Barto isn't one of them because I could have pulled off a somewhat similar bus

no one is saying you are a wolf, everyone thinks you're town

chill

[Monstrdude]

no one is saying you are a wolf, everyone thinks you're town

chill

I AM AN ICE CUBE

[Monstrdude]

I'm kind of just waiting for schema and all Sips door dee doo

I guess I can start doing some isos but I want to play fire emblem first

I'll still be around

[dicetosser1]

why?






did you even consider the view points of those strongly saying cuth was town? or was it already predetermined to be one of them?





ok thats twice. Zack whats with the attitude to being asked about your thoughts on a dead player? All it comes accross to me as is you not wanting people to dig into your vies on that play and that is scummy as.


Cass_ be happy im tinfoiling on you. Why arnt you dead?



Theres two here Zack. Top and bottom.

[Winston Hughes]

no one is saying you are a wolf, everyone thinks you're town

chill

Yeah, me and Zack are going thunderdome over this Robin-Williams-Is-Fucking-Terrible thing, but we're both clearing you.

[Montmorency]

It's nice to have it respected and all but I've done at least 10 things I can't do as a wolf this game

Voting Barto isn't one of them because I could have pulled off a somewhat similar bus

I think that's a lie. Or a bluff. Or a test.

[Zack]

But what I keep coming back to is that Zack is being way more touchy about people suspecting him - and way less willing to answer potentially revealing questions - than he ought to be as town.

< has a page-long conversation telling visor he's not townreading winston enough >


And obviously I think you're being ridiculous putting me in the last group.


By dismissing my suspicions as ridiculous.

Calling someone ridiculous or otherwise belittling their efforts can be effective because it provokes an emotional response, and thus changes the dynamic, discouraging them or making them act less rationally.

I know you use this as town too, but you've been overdoing it in this game.

I'm not being ridiculous. I'm expressing a genuine suspicion that I've come to by reasonable means.

[Monstrdude]

I think that's a lie. Or a bluff. Or a test.

Everything is a test

[Monstrdude]

Yeah, me and Zack are going thunderdome over this Robin-Williams-Is-Fucking-Terrible thing, but we're both clearing you

Oh yeah well I'm clearing me harder than you are

[Visor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7kme3GC9Gs

[Zack]

Theres two here Zack. Top and bottom.
I already explained why I thought cass was only scum if the team had EXACTLY her/cuth/barto/choxorn in it

your second question is dumb. I gave a brief overview. If people want me to give a detailed analysis on why I think a dead townie is a wolf, they can go read my past posts where I already did that. I could easily just lie about it if I wanted to. Saying I don't want people to dig into it is absurd when I literally told them to dig into it...

[Zack]

why is it ridiculous? how many wolves have you pushed/lynched?
(answers by nitpicking my placement of monstr in relation to visor)

[Winston Hughes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7kme3GC9Gs

About Good Will Hunting?

Never.

It totally blows and everyone else is fools for thinking otherwise.

[Visor]

I've never seen it, its sitting on my computer but haven't got around to watching it

might have to now...

[Winston Hughes]

Don't waste your time.

Watch detectortists instead.

[dicetosser1]

why?






did you even consider the view points of those strongly saying cuth was town? or was it already predetermined to be one of them?





ok thats twice. Zack whats with the attitude to being asked about your thoughts on a dead player? All it comes accross to me as is you not wanting people to dig into your vies on that play and that is scummy as.


Cass_ be happy im tinfoiling on you. Why arnt you dead?


I already explained why I thought cass was only scum if the team had EXACTLY her/cuth/barto/choxorn in it

your second question is dumb. I gave a brief overview. If people want me to give a detailed analysis on why I think a dead townie is a wolf, they can go read my past posts where I already did that. I could easily just lie about it if I wanted to. Saying I don't want people to dig into it is absurd when I literally told them to dig into it...

you realise people may want to compare ure answers right? that that may be WHY their asking you again?

and cass can only be scum if a PARTICULAR group of people are? WTF ??

[Visor]

you realise people may want to compare ure answers right? that that may be WHY their asking you again?

and cass can only be scum if a PARTICULAR group of people are? WTF ??

why is that so hard to understand?

If Cass is in a situation where she has no choice but to pick a wolf, then her lynching a wolf isn't clearing

your overreaction here is wolfy dice

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dicetosser

[Montmorency]

why is that so hard to understand?

If Cass is in a situation where she has no choice but to pick a wolf, then her lynching a wolf isn't clearing

your overreaction here is wolfy dice

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dicetosser

Visor, that can't be serious. No it's not. Dice is established as obstinate, and as much as he may hate my saying it, his D3 performance goes a good way toward clearing him. There is absolutely no reason to be voting dice today.

[dicetosser1]

wake up visor.

heres my issue. Cass has been chancellor the entire game and we have had a really good strike rate. Shes also being consensus town read.

Why the hell is she still alive?? Im not seeing how u prioritize renata over cass for killing.

So im paying attention to stuff regarding cass. There is no LOGICAL reason she can only be scum with as certain set of people.

your right that if she had NO CHOICE about a scum lynch it isnt clearing. I agree. Bussing is mandatory then especially as chancellor but that has nothing to do with what zack is saying.

He is saying she can ONLY be scum if its a particular group. How does that make sense? Why cant she be scum with a couple of them but also a member not in that grouping? His thinking doesnt make sense. Hes already on my radar with the way hes carrying on about being asked about his opinions on a "dead guy" now add this thinking to it and im seriously starting to think lynch zack and if he flips scum lynch cass.

[Zack]

you realise people may want to compare ure answers right? that that may be WHY their asking you again?

and cass can only be scum if a PARTICULAR group of people are? WTF ??
why should i care if they want to compare my answers? how incompetent do you think i am, like I'm not going to remember why I thought someone was a wolf?

visor already addressed your second point

[Visor]

er pretty easily??

d1 there were two wolves and a villager

d2 she lynched a villager over a (now) known wolf

d3 she didn't get a choice

her strike rate is about as good as anyone elses

[Visor]

also renata was a thread leader and is a pretty damn good player

definitely leading and talking and scumhunting more than cass

(not that cass isn't doing any of those things, just that she is doing more)

[Zack]

wake up visor.

heres my issue. Cass has been chancellor the entire game and we have had a really good strike rate. Shes also being consensus town read.

Why the hell is she still alive?? Im not seeing how u prioritize renata over cass for killing.

So im paying attention to stuff regarding cass. There is no LOGICAL reason she can only be scum with as certain set of people.

your right that if she had NO CHOICE about a scum lynch it isnt clearing. I agree. Bussing is mandatory then especially as chancellor but that has nothing to do with what zack is saying.

He is saying she can ONLY be scum if its a particular group. How does that make sense? Why cant she be scum with a couple of them but also a member not in that grouping? His thinking doesnt make sense. Hes already on my radar with the way hes carrying on about being asked about his opinions on a "dead guy" now add this thinking to it and im seriously starting to think lynch zack and if he flips scum lynch cass.

unless those exact four people are all wolves she lynched a wolf for no reason when she could've easily killed off a villager with little blowback

[Montmorency]

Maybe atheotes is her scum partner and by taking the momentum away from tiebreaker he took the pressure of decisionmaking off her. All part of the cunning plan...

[dicetosser1]

why should i care if they want to compare my answers? how incompetent do you think i am, like I'm not going to remember why I thought someone was a wolf?

visor already addressed your second point


because unless you quote ure earlier answers they probably arnt going to be EXACTLY the same. This gives people something to weigh possibly the tone gives something for people like me to get a read from.

as town you want to be as clear as possible. What ure doing is the exact opposite.


and as for the last line of ure post "unless those exact four...." ever heard of bussing and the credit it can get you? That wouldve been a very good opportunity for that.

[Zack]

because unless you quote ure earlier answers they probably arnt going to be EXACTLY the same. This gives people something to weigh possibly the tone gives something for people like me to get a read from.

as town you want to be as clear as possible. What ure doing is the exact opposite.


and as for the last line of ure post "unless those exact four...." ever heard of bussing and the credit it can get you? That wouldve been a very good opportunity for that.

so i'm a wolf because I'm not trying to clear myself? that makes sense

no i've never heard of bussing. tell me more.

[dicetosser1]

either a wolf or a really bad townie. one or the other.

how about if ure town you actually act like it? and try to HELP? otherwise if you cant be assed just say so and we can lynch you and move on.

of course if ure scum also say so and we will happily lynch u.

[Zack]

I'm sorry, was that to me? It seemed like you were talking to a strawman.

Can you post a reads list?

[dicetosser1]

i already did. Go find it like ure telling people do then add ureself down near the bottom.

[Zack]

not in this day phase you didn't

[dicetosser1]

you didnt give ure thoughts on dead people today either did you?

turnabouts fair play.

[Montmorency]

Not sure who would make a better LYLO mislynch, me or dice.

[Zack]

not asking your thoughts on dead people, don't care

you can keep trying to turn it around on me, continue avoiding it, but i'm going to keep pestering. I've seen more stubborn and irritating than you.

[dicetosser1]

actually i will just ignore you.

thanks for playing

[Zack]

at least vote me

[Montmorency]

Zack looks good on Page 73/EoD2 for asking how I could possibly townread Bart, or what Bart would have to do for me to not null-read him. Recovery from the vile assault by Wins -

WINS
TOWN

...

HUGE

[Zack]

What is the second half of that supposed to mean Monty?

[Visor]

hey dice you gonna respond to my cass stuff?

you bring it up and then i explain why and you've gone quiet

[Zack]

i'm sure he'll respond to it when he posts his reads list

i want to see where he puts you and cass

or if he has any town reads and why he is townreading them but not cass

[Cass_]

Skimming up
Visor I headed each district with likely Town, and filled it with 'the rest'/my sketchballs, aiming to have more 'probably Town' leans in each district.

Feel like you either disagreed with the choice/were throwing shade/possibly both - What would you change?/why?

@Monty - Why would you want to switch monstr out for BSmith? Why would Bsmith/Atheotes have to compete if that's your logic?

[Visor]

Skimming up
Visor I headed each district with likely Town, and filled it with 'the rest'/my sketchballs, aiming to have more 'probably Town' leans in each district.

Feel like you either disagreed with the choice/were throwing shade/possibly both - What would you change?/why?

@Monty - Why would you want to switch monstr out for BSmith? Why would Bsmith/Atheotes have to compete if that's your logic?

I was just asking why

[Montmorency]

What is the second half of that supposed to mean Monty?

It means he godzillas all over Townsville and Bubbles may secretly be evil.

Interactions with Visor smack of holding back and confidential dealings.

Can hardly make a statement without giving a 'however...' - until he's ready to go on the full attack.

Sinister timing in the movement from Barto onto Zack during D2, with votes on low-activity players in between.

What follows are Winston ISOs of D1 and D2, nearly bare description/paraphrase of his content with some of his words quoted directly. In fact, I should probably have done more in describing context and interactions as such.

Day 3 was just a few posts. I can probably do it later if necessary. I will never ISO him D4, and he's a third of the posts so far anyway.


Winston ISO Day 1:

First 10 posts: Hardclaims "liar". Votes himself for Chancellor (for having time to exercise power and because he will be early kill anyway), Visor for Rep (for rolling out town swag, though he could potentially be faking), and Barto for lynch (for stretching metagame cover). Couches shade on me in question about hamminess. Calls me ballsy if scum, looking bad for scenery chewing and mechanics talk. Comments that Visor is also being hammy, and that my style allows w/w with him. Asks Renata why he should never be lynched (i.e. why Renata is liking him). Shades me more, asks for solving and reads. Explains latest town games as experimental hunt-by-shitpost, and getting killed for tricking scum into concluding him as PR. Says Renata's townread makes him both happy and paranoid.

Posts 11-20: Laughs at GH's post on failed formatting in his (GH's) vote. Reads dicetosser as relaxed town, could be faking on D1 but not worth lynching. "Sooh's posting lacks substance, looks scummy." Laughs because previous comment on Sooh cross-posted with Sooh's frustration wrt formatting. "Luckily for you, El Barto is still at large." in response to Sooh's goading him into voting her. Confirms lynchvote on Barto for perceived focus on self-preservation and lack of townie intent. Reads Dp101 as displaying his standard townie look, but then again could be scum due to greater confidence, or it could be progress in his town game. Asserts that Barto can show townie intent, though usually when dead or under threat of death. Corrects my tally in switching his Chancellor and Rep votes. Evaluates Zack vs. Jabbz, finding the former slightly scummier though neither are worth trusting or lynching yet.


On Zack vs. Jabbz:

Zack knows that most people struggle to adapt to a new meta, and that this makes them vulnerable to misunderstanding, overreaction, and any number of other traps that can lead to a mislynch.

Jabbz has shown confidence in his standard meta (even if he hasn't explained it very well), and a willingness to engage with people who are self-evidently very capable players.

I'd neither trust nor lynch either at this stage, but right now it's Zack who's trending scummier for me.

Posts 21-30: Finds it weird/difficult to analyze Renata can't read her, because most of the games they played together were from years ago. Renata gets no townpoints due to old paranoia, but not a lynch candidate either. Informs dicetosser that less than a day to end of phase. Defends Renata paranoia to paranoia, while claiming that his paranoia as either alignment has declined over time. In response to Monstr asking for town reads,


I am unsure of everything, and I'm not minded here to pretend otherwise.

But I have been giving/implying townpoints (to Jabbz, Visor, dicetosser, Dp101), as well as scumpoints (to El Barto, Monty, Sooh, Zack).

I haven't reread Cass yet, but the vibe was fairly positive on first look.

Everyone else is in the null pile until I take a closer look.

In response to Monstr asking what scum Winston looks like, he claims he doesn't post as freely as he has so far this game, and never has before. However, he expresses uncertainty as to whether it really would be possible for his scum game now given how much his play has changed since his last scum game. I asked about this wrt Futuramafia, to which Winston replied that he has been town for every game in over a year, and that he was jumpier and more excitable in Futuramafia, more prone to prioritizing emergent reads. "I'm trying to be more methodical here (not least because I actually have time to do so), but I'm still posting the first thing that comes to mind, rather than sweating over every post." Asks about Monstr's presence in Mafia-playing communities. Finds townie vibe in MOnstr's play in itself, but a hint of caution that could be sensible in scum. Finds delay in substantive posting to be good for scum trying to get the lay of the land before committing (but "obviously RL can't be helped").

Gives Cuth iso in response to Visor's call, saying that despite being unable to trust his own judgement of Cuth, he knows Cuth town to do things he [Winston] finds scummy.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152347-Representative-Democracy-In-Play&p=2053729620&viewfull=1#post2053729620
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152347-Representative-Democracy-In-Play&p=2053729649&viewfull=1#post2053729649

CUth should explain his disapproval toward my post against Visor more thoroughly. Doesn't agree with Cuth's townread of Zack given Zack's skill at fakery and the early stage of the game. Suggests it's an attempt at snuggling. Doesn't understand why Cuth said "visor>monstr scum". Feels that Dp101 and Cass are easy names to put on town list. Makes note of Cuth's elaboration of his criticism of my one post (which weirded Cuth out). Commenting on Cuth's votes, Winston feels that self-vote for Chancellor is cheap, Rep-vote for Zack is cheap, and lynchvote for Visor is risky for Cuth-scum but less so due to lack of accompanying explanation. Finds "abortive exchange" between Monstr and Cuth that could suggest w/w for lack of followup, though it's not that interesting. "Obvious thought, phrased weakly and unjustified" in reference to Cuth saying GH could be scum. Comments on Cuth's reads on Visor and Monty in response to Renata, calling Visor read all gut and "barely even an excuse of a reason" and Monty read "reasonable but easy" for lack of insight on the initial strong reaction to my post. Calls some comments on VIsor's scumminess pure spam for lack of anything to help others understand the read. In Part 2 of the ISO, leaving out some "spam posts", he decides he's fine with Cuth giving town points to Schema, at the same time expressing disdain for "pre-packed scumreading devices". Continuing on Cuth's read of Schema, "Explaining his method. Don't like it, don't see it helping, but not scummy in itself." Disagrees with all of Cuth's leans (i.e. Sooh town UTR, Visor subpar push on Sooh and acting like in Hydra, Monstr trending up, trusting Zack over Cass), while considering this an illustration of the problem he has reading Cuth properly. Criticizes Cuth post assuming VIsor scum and looking for partners in his district as pointless and without explanation, "This is so bad I'd be tempted to push his lynch over it, except for one thing: I lynched Cuth for saying horrible stuff last time we met, and while I was right about it being horrible, I was wrong to think he was scum." Notes Cuth replying to Zack on Visor meta, complains Cuth hasn't talked about much else. Sees Cuth response to Jabbz justifying Zack on meta grounds as "finding new ways to talk about same stuff." Closes ISO with, "Meta info on Cass is welcome. Still only talking about the same tiny handful of people, though."

When Renata calls out perceived TMI in Jabbz for asking Sooh for deathbed reads, Winston notes that Jabbz is coming for a rare game outside his home site - "an island culture" - but hedges with knowledge that Jabbz is a strong scummer and wouldn't "be making the kinds of obvious mistakes you're seeing here".

Posts 31-42: Cuth looks bad even when Winston tries to correct his bias, owing to "narrow focus, lack of explanation, no evidence of development." Responding to Renata's skepticism on his explanation of Jabbz, Winston says he could be getting fooled with Zack and her pegging Jabbz correctly, but to Winston Jabbz vibes town and Renata is reaching. I could be scum (he's seen it) or town (can't speak against it) because half of what I say makes no sense to him. Reading Cass, substantive mechanics discussion is townie enough but easy, interactions feel relaxed, asks a lot of questions with thought process that can be followed (though easy to fake), defence of mechanics discussion feels townie, giving and seeking opinions on multiple subjects, god process, mindmeld on subject of Visor's election, reads on Jabbz feel townie, seeks discussion and understanding on everyone and everything, repeated mindmelds, worst thing to be found is stalling response Monstr's request for reads on Schema - looks town all the way, impressive job if scum. When I ask Winston to expand his meta assessment of me, he calls it a throwaway point that he believes scum should seek clarity and usually prefer to avoid being misunderstood, and so leans townie on people who aren't clear to him, but I went counter to this expectation as scum in Futuramafia. Unvotes himself for Chancellor, votes Cass. Responds to Renata's complaint of ISO limitations in the Org structure that it's better than in CFC, which may have lost the function entirely. Despite paranoia, Winston feels townie vibe from Renata's flow and activity. In response to Choxorn criticizing Jabbz for textwall, "Of all the things you could have talked about, why did you choose this?" After BSmith pops in, Winston sarcastically tells him that all the preceding posts and discussions are worth reading. When Cass is concerned with Winston's vote on Bart, he explains that it doesn't matter and so won't be moved; Barto has done nothing worthy of having it removed, and Winston wants it to be clear whom he suspects. Cass asks "How do you tell the difference between Town/Scum El Barto ?", to which Winston responds that he should be lynched for host reveal, reaffirms that Barto has even less town intent than usual, and after having displayed some in recent games. In his closing statement, he responds to Cass asking why he doesn't place his vote on other scum reads with, "As per my previous post, I've not placed him over other scummy reads, I've just not changed my vote."




Winston ISO Day 2:

Posts 43-50: After Visor admits lying about doublevote, Winston explains that he figured Visor was lying and crumbed it with the "Liar" hardclaim (though that opening post was in fact "a multilayered extravaganza"). Winston supported and supports Visor because he saw the claim as a townie thing to do, stupid for scum, and altogether still likely to end in Visor's lynch. Mocks DPs promise to vote the next person to say "lol". Votes self for Rep on the grounds that he will be available for EOD to make sure Cass gets the final decision, even "if it means putting himself in the firing line". However, he will still be putting forth independent arguments. Opens himself to interactions but warns that most time will be spent "reading and thinking, with a view to setting out some cases in the latter half of the day." Asks Monstr what Monstr is like as scum, and how he would play this game as scum. Asks Barto if Barto is scum (during Barto's spat with Monstr). Winston thanks Monstr for meta and evaluates him "either town or really really good at scumming". Votes El Barto for lynch.

Posts 51-60: Comments that this game is surprising easy, corrects "surprising" to "surprisingly". Chides Barto "You know I'm not scum" in response to Barto voting him. Cajoles Barto to do better, claiming that Barto knows how to read Winston better than anyone, as a specialty even, and that if Barto affirms Winston as scum then Winston will have to actually assume Barto is scum. Winston demands Barto to give another read/target. Barto threatens to vote Zack, and Winston asks him why Zack is scum. Winston seconds Renata's townie vibe in dicetosser, for authentic irritation. Expresses surprise or confusion at Visor self-vote for Rep, asks what Visor plans to do with it. Winston warns Barto that he will only unvote him if he shows towniness. Winston tells Visor that he still isn't convinced that Cuth should swing, when Visor votes him.

Posts 61-70: Visor tells Winston he'd be fine with either Barto or Cuth, having scumread them D1, but Winston demands Visor not go soft and provide a full case on Cuth. Offers that he failed in reasing Visor's content (re: Cuth progression on Sooh), and that the case on Cuth is good and the voters should decide on it. When Zack asks Winston expected Visor to do other than run for Rep, Winston says he didn't and that Dq is for business and D2 for pleasure. Winston acknowledges Visor switching to him for Rep vote because Dp101 is carrying the case against Cuth (and so it's OK for the district to vote otherwise?). Zack can't understand why people are townreading Jabbz, and Winston asks him to summarize the case (for lazy people). Zack does not comply, and Winston maintains that he still isn't seeing it, though promising to rereat Jabbz in hope of finding why the best explanation for Zack's complaints is scum-Jabbz. Informs Csargo that he has to cast a lynch-vote by the rules. Commenting on Al SIpsclar's leans list, asks why Monty and Schema are scumleans, why BSmith, Csargo, and Riedquat are not scumleans, and why Jabbz is a townlean. Provides Cass with links to his latest scum and town games, though with the caveat that the scum games have ~10 posts from him (and with further caveat that these are at least better than the scum game in which he spoke only in movie quotes).

Posts 71-80: Zack mentions another game Winston can give Cass for ISO, to which Winston discusses problems with games containing multiple scum factions for the evaluation of hunting tone or process. *Something about multiball, and that being an amusing reference* Cuth likes Barto's latest post giving meta and other comments, and Winston agrees, unvoting to give Barto another chance. Now Winston turns to Riedquat and BSmith, calling Bsmith's read of me the most indicative of independent thought, but unsure of whether that makes him more or less scummy than Riedquat.


Yeah, there will need to be more, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

unvote

These guys on the other hand...

Summary of Riedquat's meaningful contributions thus far:

*Votes Visor for all three categories on D1.
*Votes Winston for the D2 election + suspects Visor.
*Orders his town reads within district 2: Winston, Monstr, Visor, El Barto.
*Acknowledges his own and others' scumminess by reason of inactivity.

Summary of BSmith's meaningful contributions thus far:

*D1 votes Winston for rep, Visor for chancellor, and Al Sips for lynch, claiming he hasn't read the thread yet.
*Changes rep vote to Visor to test his ability claim.
*D2 votes Winston for rep + calls Visor and Winston townie + votes Cuth for lynch on the Sooh thing + says Monty is 'making good cases' + various other obvious reads

Now Winston says Zack looks scummy for seemingly trying to bury reads in spam, and wants to say Monstr too but the reread negates that and puts Monstr on a better look, because among the chatty stuff there are lots of pushes and opinions, "and a sense of actually trying to understand." Further points against Zack are the badboy attitude that he likes to take advantage of as scum, and the aggressive response to Jabbz without attempt to understand the other guy. Concluding on Zack, "today I feel like he's been running interference, discouraging the town core in his interactions with them, and making it harder for the inactives to keep up by waging his post war with Monstr." Responding to Zack's comeback with snark and a reference to meta in another game, Winston suggests that Zack is saying Winston is townie for scumreading him (because scum Winston is quick to townread Zack). Zack says he's being sarcastic, which Winston protests doesn't work on the Internet. Winston understands Zack as preferring victory to shitposting, making Zack's actions this game easier to follow as win-oriented scum actions than as win-oriented town actions.

Posts 81-90: Riedquat says BSmith's posts make him less scummy than himself, to which Winston replies "more" with an angry face. Now the confrontation with Zack begins in earnest (Page 66). Zack has made a lot of impact on the game D2, mostly negative in Winston's view. Winston explains to Zack that he is townhunting, looking for townie mind that is hard to fake, believable thought processes leading to pro-town actions. Winston admits that Zack lies to save his buddies, so will reread D1 wrt Choxorn to see if Zack not trying to save him impacts the case. Zack calls this arbitrary. Winston responds,


I'm not trying to prove myself, I'm trying to work you out.

What are you trying to do?

Riedquat questioned Winston's evaluation of BSmith & Riedquat scumminess, to which Winston's asks how much of the thread Riedquat has read. Zack fires back that Winston is motivated to manufacture a case against him [Zack] to sate paranoia. Winston says Zack case is not paranoia, and that paranoia would tell him to not trust Visor as much as he does. Winston claims he went looking for reasons to find Monstr and Zack townie, found them for Monstr, didn't for Zack. As for the Choxorn connection, looking at D1 Winston doesn't find Zack to be an obvious beneficiary of the flip, but he doesn't like how Zack is resting on this fact. Zack calls it all ridiculous, which Winston claims is Zack's go-to defence (i.e. creating emotional confrontation). Zack protests this, but Winston says it is manifested in Zack dismissing his suspicions ridiculous to belittle his efforts and cause irrational missteps. Winston acknowledges that Zack does this as town, but has been overdoing it in this game - "I'm not being ridiculous. I'm expressing a genuine suspicion that I've come to by reasonable means." Zack specifies that he was referring specifically to Winston targetting him at a low point in thread activity at the expense of other targets, or dismissing Zack's self-defense during that low point in activity. Winston asks Cass what she thinks of Zack and whether she sees any of the townie intent Zack alleges. Winston reports on his review of Chox-Zack connection and defence for Zack based on not trying to save Chox, claiming he doesn't get it. Winston admits Zack isn't sticking his neck out to help Chox, but nor is anyone else, and anyway the Chox lynch came as a dark horse outside the scope of day discussion. Quoting Zack's D1 post about Renata not running for Rep (she was voting Chox at the time), Winston remarks that the most charitable explanation is very slight indirect support for Chox lynch, but that even this is diluted by Dp101 being in line for the position and already sheeping Renata. Winston's less-charitable interpretation is that Zack was shading Renata to diminish her case on Choxorn by association. Responding to Cass' evaluation of Zack, Winston agrees that the number of posts is intimidating, but not as much as the lack of clarity and the diffusion. To Cass's question on whether he perceives more against Zack than simple lack of townie intent, Winston admits that he isn't convinced Zack is scum and wasn't going to push the case until Zack began his emotionally-focused defence. He defers the case for later because there are other people who need to be looked at now.

Posts 91-100: Winston begins ISO of GH, leaving out a lot of irrelevant posts. [Winston doesn't provide embdedded commentary as he did with Cuth] Visor asks Winston on the odds of GH-Zack team, and Winston says it's not impossible, but he would be surprised if scum all came out guns blazing like that. Returning to GH, Winston finds that he has shown more skin D2 than D1 to the point where it's tempting to let him slide and hopefully improve, though it still doesn't look great, nothing he'd put it past GH to fake. "There's the vague impression of a townie mind, but I'm not getting that warm, fuzzy feeling just yet." Then Winston turns to Schema, calling the early material good and asking for meta since he doesn't know her. Putting Cuth's vote onto Sooh against Schema's reaction to it asking for explanation, Winston ventures that w/w/ is unlikely. Visor replies that he doesn't find this interaction clearing, and Winston asks for update on the strength of Visor's read on Cuth. Winston places a first lynchvote on Riedquat, calling it default in case something prevents him from voting later in the day. Finishing off Schema's D1 ISO, Winston affirms that it looks fairly townie, adding "Nothing that I want to cuddle up with in front of the fire, but nothing I want to leave freezing outside in the snow either." Visor agrees. Cass asks Winston to walk through on lenience for Barto, and Winston replies that he felt an encouraging gut reaction to Barto's last post (see this ISO, posts 71-80), but Barto hasn't followed up on it so he remains high on the list of suspects. Cass also notes mindmeld on Winston's remark on BSmith-Riedquat (see this ISO posts 71-80), and that it suggests Riedquat more genuine than BSmith, and Winston agrees noncommittaly.

Posts 101-110: Winston points to Schema's early D2 self-vote for Rep and that it has no point coming from scum, that it calls up too much attention. Rest of Schema D2 ISO feels meh, but loss of energy, while certainly less towny, is not scummy necessarily. To Visor's request for updated feelings on Cuth, Winston admits he vacillates between thinking Cuth looks terrible and thinking his ability to read Cuth is terrible. Cuth has had some moments that look good in thread flow, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The one certainty is that Cuth flipping scum makes the game much simpler, which prospect Winston finds to be a cause of anxiety. From the high posters, only Zack and Cuth are currently in Winston's POE, with him remaining leery of me while feeling me grow on him. From the middle posters, he is looking at GH and Barto. Rereads of Jabbz, dice, and atheotes are necessary at some point, and initial impression based on Winston's own reads and others' reactions is that Jabbz is scummiest. All of the low-posters are suspect. Rechecking them, Al SIpsclar and Riedquat get a pass for now, leaving BSmith and Csargo. He switches onto Csargo, "defaulting to the suspect who's shown the least skin while I let things percolate some more." Winston asks for thoughts on Zack, Cuth, GH, Barto, BSmith, and Csargo, especially from one another. Zack returns to engage Winston on his case [on Zack], maintaining that the (lack of) Choxorn connection contradicts Winston's view that Zack is playing from a pro-scum approach. Winston sees the absence of an attempt to save Choxorn as not evidencing anything in particular, especially given that Zack was in no position to save him, and that such an attempt in the circumstances would have looked terrible at all times and from all angles. Zack persists in saying he didn't take the most beneficial move for scum D1, and that he [Zack] doesn't let scumbuddies get lynched D1. However, to Winston " that one thing you didn't do holds very little weight in the context of all the stuff you have done, as well as the other stuff you haven't done." Winston calls Zack overly focused on self-defence to the point of resting on irrelevant points, and that at best if Zack is town he is wasting everyone's time. Winston forecloses on any more discussion of Zack's defence today, because it isn't helping and Zack should talk about something else. Zack dismisses these considerations as arbitrary and precluding of any of Zack's defenses. Zack points WInston to posts on other subjects from before Winston opened the case on him. Winston finally moves his lynchvote onto Zack, because Zack offers only "self-serving demands to be lock-cleared for something that isn't even evidence." All of Zack's content, if there is any, is buried under spam and he refuses to make any effort to elaborate them or explain them to others, and it's all straight anti-town at this point. Winston assures the thread that if Dp101 is a no-show to vote on lynch, then Winston will switch to whomever Cass wants as her second choice, assuming she isn't happy with Winston's vote on Zack.

Posts 111-8: Zack points out that he never said anything about lock-clear and that he was exposing a flaw in Winston's argument, but Winston retorts that it was not a flaw and that Zack is trying to excuse his dismissal of Winston's case as ridiculous. Winston adds that Zack's insinuation is that the Choxorn connection should be clearing in some way for him. Zack claims that as scum he tries to pocket top townies, while here he has antagonized the district leaders. Zack is on the verge of exploding. Visor tells Winston and Zack to drop it for today. I make my first scumlean on Winston (post 2141). Winston will happily stop talking about Zack, and will change his vote if Cass tells him to. Atheotes feels uneasy about this last comment because townies should try to convince others on primary or secondary reads, and why should Cass decide for him (not that it matters outside of a GH vote). Winston replies that he's explained it all at length, and "given that Cass showed last night the benefit of having viable options beyond her own vote in the final reckoning, and given that my vote is irrelevant if she doesn't share the read, I'm happy to change my vote at her request." Reminds Jabbz that there are 15 minutes remaining to deadline. When Cass posts her strategic reasoning on who to tiebreak among GH/Cuth/Bart, she advances Barto as the most likely choice for his lack of contribution (and also the motion that Zack should be given another day to shape up); this all makes sense and doesn't sound crazy to Winston. Zack concurs. Last post of D2 for Winston:


You want me to switch Zack for Cuth, Cass?

It seems like I'm in a very small minority thinking there's anything to be suspicious about with the Z man.

Cass declines, reiterates earlier strategy post, and asks all for preferences. Monstr doesn't know if Cass' stated strategy will be right but he believes in Cass. Schema has GH/Barto as safest shots, but Cass should deal with the content from Barto as much as the inactivity. Zack mourns the demise of democracy, but is fine with Barto lynch as long as it's not just for inactivity. Atheotes calls for Barto. Visor says it doesn't matter to him, good luck to Cass. Winston remarks that a dead Barto is good for his reads (noting that one of his reads was scum Zack).

[atheotes]

can i get an explanation for this sequence

I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.

[Montmorency]

Skimming up
Visor
@Monty - Why would you want to switch monstr out for BSmith? Why would Bsmith/Atheotes have to compete if that's your logic?

In District 2, BSmith is the towniest now with his claim, but he is less-active and Winston or Visor could easily get one of the other elected in his place. They cannot resist Monstr's election, however. Meanwhile, in a district with high-towns like Monstr and atheotes, one of them will be elected and the other will not be. They will de facto be competing against each other, even as District 2 falls apart.

With my proposed switch we get Monstr Rep for District 2, and atheotes as District 3 (with BSmith available as fallback just in case).

[Zack]

multiball = games with multiple scum factions

for reference

[Montmorency]

multiball = games with multiple scum factions

for reference

You read that in my ISO, huh?

[Zack]

I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.

don't fake a red peek a minute to deadline

ever

[atheotes]

I understand the vig shot. But not the claim. There was no need to do that.
Anyways it should resolve itself.

[Zack]

You read that in my ISO, huh?
did you not expect me to read it?

[Montmorency]

Anyways it should resolve itself.

That's what they said about Pizza.

[atheotes]

don't fake a red peek a minute to deadline

ever

I understand. but this was an exception. :sweatdrop:

[Montmorency]

did you not expect me to read it?

I was confused for a second. Just making sure. It will probably help others to point out the context.

[Cass_]

Thought dump from SoD to here.

I feel like I'm going around in circles of tinfoil and need a reread to declutter but ftr off the top of my head.

I disagree that Barto's flip makes Zack look townier but I don't mind Zack's play so far today after the 'go find it yourself'.

I find Winston's progression off Barto/staying off Cuth mechanically suspect but the rest of his ISO has good tone.

I don't think we can lolclear Monty, his EoD comment about Cuth, Fenn, Winston/Schema vs feeling Kill, Kill, Kill, Kill (but don't) Barto are off and I get a feeling of puppet strings with a lot of what I've read from him over the thread - more canvassing/mechanics/commentating than committing to opinions I can understand.

I think there would be very little point to atheotes claiming a scum read on Cuth as scum/can see more motivation in that coming from Town. BSmith has his claim and I think Jabbz' effort at EoD yesterday was clearing enough for now.

Dice's push at Zack over paranoia at me is strange/?too blind considering his own admission that I don't bus, and the fact that there would have been absolutely no need to on D1. OTOH I don't think ScumDice tries to lead that sort of push here unless bussing, which at this point for scum would be risky. Visor's retaliation posts feel opportunistic/reaching, I don't think they're WW.

Monstr got mad rather than dejected with me and I have him as Town<3 for now but he's my secret deepwolf. I'm ignoring tinfoil for now, but ftr it's there - I'll look at it closer in re-read but atp I don't think we worry about him today.

I want to see more from all the thus-far-quiet players early today, particularly Vote: Al Sipsclar who I've seen play a much wordier/involved game as Town and who has zero questioning of other players in ISO here.
Someone pls let me know if that's been normal for him in Town/Scum games of recent here.

I feel like Schema has slipped away after a fairly opinionated start and like Riedquat could be offering more if Town, but isn't.

This isn't meant to throw shade at the lower posters if they're Town, but more to point out that if they are, now is the time they need to step up and get clear.

[atheotes]

That's what they said about Pizza.

Not really. I called his claim fake and he got lynched the next day iirc.

[Zack]

I am banning the word deepwolf

[Zack]

Not really. I called his claim fake and he got lynched the next day iirc.

damn, you just hung your nuts in a few faces

atheotes has ice in his veins

[Montmorency]

Not really. I called his claim fake and he got lynched the next day iirc.

After he was saved, of course. And technically his claim was half-true.


I am banning the word deepwolf


Why?

[Zack]

it's counterproductive and encourages doubting town reads / expanding POE unnecessarily

[Montmorency]

it's counterproductive and encourages doubting town reads / expanding POE unnecessarily

Compared to "WIFOM" or "power-wolf"?

[Zack]

power-wolfing is a specific type of wolfing strategy

wifom is just a buzzword

[Zack]

anyways, I should go to sleep

probably won't be around as much until eod, spent too much time on this today

[Montmorency]

power-wolfing is a specific type of wolfing strategy

wifom is just a buzzword

Don't they encourage expanding POE and doubting townreads? Or is "deepwolf" used only against townreads and the others against scumreads?

[Cass_]

In District 2, BSmith is the towniest now with his claim, but he is less-active and Winston or Visor could easily get one of the other elected in his place. They cannot resist Monstr's election, however. Meanwhile, in a district with high-towns like Monstr and atheotes, one of them will be elected and the other will not be. They will de facto be competing against each other, even as District 2 falls apart.

With my proposed switch we get Monstr Rep for District 2, and atheotes as District 3 (with BSmith available as fallback just in case).

So by that logic, it should also be acceptable to you to switch Atheotes/BSmith? I'd prefer to do that and have each district headed by more mechanically clear players.

Suggesting that D2 will fall apart with BSmith, Winston, Visor, Riedquat in it feels a bit over-dramatised, though you're potentially right IF the last wolves include Winston/Visor. IIRC yesterday you had a problem with Monstr taking the lead over Renata/I.

/shrug

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Out to dinner back later tonight, work in the morning.

[Montmorency]

So by that logic, it should also be acceptable to you to switch Atheotes/BSmith? I'd prefer to do that and have each district headed by more mechanically clear players.

Eh, let's try it. Of course it's less difficult for Winston or Visor to argue against atheotes as mechanically clear than the Monstr whom they love so dearly.


Suggesting that D2 will fall apart with BSmith, Winston, Visor, Riedquat in it feels a bit over-dramatised, though you're potentially right IF the last wolves include Winston/Visor. IIRC yesterday you had a problem with Monstr taking the lead over Renata/I.


I suppose in fact I did, but only inasmuch as with any other given player. Did I say anything specific against Monstr-as-Rep in the technical beginning of D3?

Some of my statements that included Monstr:



With 5 districts, you absolutely must take personal leadership of a home district, and elevate atheotes to power as a new man for his towniness. Two of Visor, Zack, Monstrbro, and Winston should be placed so as to be elected Reps. Pick who to exclude from power, and place one of those individuals in your own district



1. Winston/Monstrbro
2. Winston/Monstrbro
3. Fenn/Csargo

And in fact, responding to a proposal by atheotes (page 80):


Personally rather Monstr were Rep than Winston (District 4), and Zack (or whoever in the upper class that doesn't have blessing to become Rep) should sit under Cass (District 2).

So on those terms simply, switch Monstr and Winston, and switch Zack and one of Schema/Al Sips/Barto.

I clearly had no problem with Monstr as Rep. Quite the contrary.

[Jabbz]

...?

whats with the stick in the ass about this post of all things?

I'm simply pointing out yet another instance where Zack is a world class asshole. I've honestly barely enjoyed this game, and it lays entirely on his method of engagement. If I wanted to listen to childish people insult each other for days at a time I'd go back to playing Dota.


but that's your only quibble?

no speech about how the way it's constructed is an artful manipulation of the collective psyche of the esteemed players in this venerable game we call mafia/werewolf/an exercise in frustration?

no belligerent rant on what i said about monty on this page? was practically baiting you

I don't think you're scum, I just think your an ass.

[Cass_]

I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.


I understand. but this was an exception. :sweatdrop:

Tbh this was not one of the answers I was expecting if you were/are Town and I can't get my head around it from a 'more likely Town' perspective with that explanation.

What was the exception?

[Cass_]

/Snip Vote: Al Sipsclar who I've seen play a much wordier/involved game as Town and who has zero questioning of other players in ISO here.
Someone pls let me know if that's been normal for him in Town/Scum games of recent here.

FTR ISO'd Al Sips in Visor's Small Mafia (Town) and Tokens of my Confection (Maf) myself. AFAICT he's actually wordier/more involved in the latter so my meta is probably outdated/imo zero questioning here is null in itself. Still want to see him more involved in this game.

*Offers chocolate*

[dicetosser1]

also renata was a thread leader and is a pretty damn good player

definitely leading and talking and scumhunting more than cass

(not that cass isn't doing any of those things, just that she is doing more)


you mean this visor??

Cass keeps getting voted into the power position that scum could really use and shes not likely to be NOT put there. I would expect scum to want to control as much of the game as possible

[Visor]

you mean this visor??

Cass keeps getting voted into the power position that scum could really use and shes not likely to be NOT put there. I would expect scum to want to control as much of the game as possible

Er, why? Why not just get the townies to lynch themselves?

[Visor]

Also, Cass being elected gives zero information on the other people.

The longer she stays in power, the easier it is to keep quiet.

[Visor]

This is what regular townie A thinks. Player B keeps lynching town so he must be scum.

If you can get the TOWN players to take the blame for lynching villagers and then come out with no black marks against yourself, then why the hell not?

All you have to do is control the thread and not even worry about votes

[atheotes]

Tbh this was not one of the answers I was expecting if you were/are Town and I can't get my head around it from a 'more likely Town' perspective with that explanation.

What was the exception?

Zack said fake claiming is a bad thing to do so close to EOD. I agreed with him. hence called this time an exception

[Winston Hughes]

I'm sick of this game.

Just go ahead and lynch me.

When I show up town, lynch Monty and Zack.

Do not waver on this, they are interference-running, poe-expanding, agenda-setting scum.

vote: Monty

[Cass_]

you mean this visor??

Cass keeps getting voted into the power position that scum could really use and shes not likely to be NOT put there. I would expect scum to want to control as much of the game as possible

*Prepares the bat*

Dice look at my play to decide whether or not you think I'm scum, not tinfoil of 'but, she's alive!!' - that's likely part of the reason I'm left alive and you're either scummy for pushing it or falling into the trap.

Bold is contradictory to the play I've been encouraging, sharing power with Town reads and pushing for representative voting, and Chancellor decisions to be based on majority of votes. It makes no sense that I would leave Town alive D1 and the NKs to here make more sense than me.

Is there something in my play you actually disagree with/on?

Where are you at on everyone else?

[Visor]

Vote: Monty

[Cass_]

Zack said fake claiming is a bad thing to do so close to EOD. I agreed with him. hence called this time an exception

But why was it an exception?

And, if you honestly thought Cuth was the better lynch, why did you change last minute? Barto was, publicly, already going to be resolved:



If Visor doesn't answer, I'll be going Barto, can't see anything that clears him Town.

So your vote wasn't needed there?


Encouraging Renata to change with the fake peek one minute out, then switching out your vote immediately/one minute after that doesn't make much sense either?


I was just encouraging Renata to change her vote. I felt resolving Cuth could give us more information.
It did not happen. so i resolved El Barto.


is anyone having El Barto in their town list? (Maybe Cass :laugh4:)

Still prefer Cuth today.


I'm back. Looks like a tie again,unless I want to bury Cuth and I'm not sure I do. Last minute pitches?


Traditional tally/individual votes are now directly tied thanks to movement by Monstr and Dice.


Cuth (7): Fenn, Schema, Riedquat, Montmorency, Zack, atheotes, BSmith

El Barto (7): Cuth, Cass, Renata, Al Sips, Jabbz, Dicetosser, Monstr

Monty (1): El Barto

Dice (1): Visor

Zack (1): Winston Hughes


Visor - Barto or Cuth today?

everyone

If Visor doesn't answer, I'll be going Barto, can't see anything that clears him Town.


I think they are both wolves so it doesn't really matter that much to me which way it goes, cass


Cuth is wolf. I peeked him :yes:


Vote: El Barto


Vote: El Barto

I can maybe buy the fake peek as a response to Renata. But if you were truly hoping to secure a lynch on Cuth, why last minute/why would you move off so quickly?

[Visor]

can we look at people who had positive and negative interactions with the two flipped scums?

it'd be nice for future referencing.

[Cass_]

FTR I'm going to submit the Districts to Pizza as described in my previous post and head to bed. I considered and went back and forth on what Monty said, but think that BSmith should be fine as a rep given his claim, he's proven he can be around at EoD, and I'd like to see where it goes/what the rest of the district decide.

GLGL Town, g'night.

[Zack]

I'm simply pointing out yet another instance where Zack is a world class asshole. I've honestly barely enjoyed this game, and it lays entirely on his method of engagement. If I wanted to listen to childish people insult each other for days at a time I'd go back to playing Dota.



I don't think you're scum, I just think your an ass.
You're the one who has been calling me names. I can go quote all of them if you like. The post you lost your mind at wasnt insulting you, like at all. It was just a reads list. The second post you're quoting here wasn't even addressed to you. Dunno what you're calling me "a world class asshole" about. If you have a problem you can talk about it like an adult instead of name calling.

[Zack]

I'm sick of this game.

Just go ahead and lynch me.

When I show up town, lynch Monty and Zack.

Do not waver on this, they are interference-running, poe-expanding, agenda-setting scum.

vote: Monty
Emotional response to shut down conversation. :rolleyes:

[Monstrdude]

This game has been exhausting

:) :) :)

Vote: Schema

[BSmith]

did you even consider the view points of those strongly saying cuth was town? or was it already predetermined to be one of them?

Of course I did. I won’t lie and say I didn’t have any voices in my head saying he could be town either. Tbh I had some of the same voices for Barto, but would have killed him if Cuth was lynched instead.

On the whole though, resolving cuth was the optimal option. I suppose I could have hit someone else at somewhat random, but killing cuth at the very least had the end result of giving us much more information to work off of, and it ended the back and forth in thread regarding his alignment. Now we know for sure and can focus elsewhere with more info available to us.

[Monstrdude]

Of course I did. I won’t lie and say I didn’t have any voices in my head saying he could be town either. Tbh I had some of the same voices for Barto, but would have killed him if Cuth was lynched instead.

On the whole though, resolving cuth was the optimal option. I suppose I could have hit someone else at somewhat random, but killing cuth at the very least had the end result of giving us much more information to work off of, and it ended the back and forth in thread regarding his alignment. Now we know for sure and can focus elsewhere with more info available to us.

I don't want to say your shot was bad because it wasn't

But I disagree partially because the optimal shot is always a wolf. I was pretty sure cuth was a villager and I was trying to help him play his best despite that much of the thread wanted him dead. I mean, #levels but for a while the dude was basically voting himself higher up the lynch list when he was voting schema for district rep who was voting him for the lynch block

[atheotes]

But why was it an exception?

And, if you honestly thought Cuth was the better lynch, why did you change last minute? Barto was, publicly, already going to be resolved:



So your vote wasn't needed there?


Encouraging Renata to change with the fake peek one minute out, then switching out your vote immediately/one minute after that doesn't make much sense either?

















I can maybe buy the fake peek as a response to Renata. But if you were truly hoping to secure a lynch on Cuth, why last minute/why would you move off so quickly?
exception because no harm done.

Cuth was the better lynch because there were atleast some interactions to work on...once it became a tie, i was not sure if you would get to decide only between Cuth and Barto or all 3. i did not want to take a chance where somebody other than these 2 might be lynched.

[Montmorency]

Atheotes was perfectly reasonable in his calculation, even if it wasn't strictly necessary to achieve his final objective. Just a slight difference from putting an extra vote on a winning wagon, and that difference is all the purer for the hypothetical mechanical efficacy here.

I am sad that my district proposal was set aside, even the compromise arrived at switching atheotes and BSmith.

Visor and Winston want me dead - I knew it!

[Jabbz]

You're the one who has been calling me names. I can go quote all of them if you like. The post you lost your mind at wasnt insulting you, like at all. It was just a reads list. The second post you're quoting here wasn't even addressed to you. Dunno what you're calling me "a world class asshole" about. If you have a problem you can talk about it like an adult instead of name calling.

I didn't lose my mind Zack, I'm just done interacting with someone whose first instinct is to belittle the person engaging with them, and be consistently rude and dismissive. Fun Fact, your irritating behavior doesn't have to be directed at someone specifically for them to find it problematic. I'm pretty sure you're town, so hopefully I won't find it necessary to engage with you again, and I won't be responding to you anymore. Have a nice day Zack.

[Monstrdude]

Atheotes was perfectly reasonable in his calculation, even if it wasn't strictly necessary to achieve his final objective. Just a slight difference from putting an extra vote on a winning wagon, and that difference is all the purer for the hypothetical mechanical efficacy here.

I am sad that my district proposal was set aside, even the compromise arrived at switching atheotes and BSmith.

Visor and Winston want me dead - I knew it!

She's doesn't trust me for reasons even she can't explain

I explained all this before. She'll never get over it.

[Monstrdude]

I shouldn't have been thrown in with Renata and Barto either but I was

For the same reason

[Montmorency]

She's doesn't trust me for reasons even she can't explain

I explained all this before. She'll never get over it.

Do you plan on running for Rep of District 3? Do you think you won't be elected?

[Zack]

I didn't lose my mind Zack, I'm just done interacting with someone whose first instinct is to belittle the person engaging with them, and be consistently rude and dismissive. Fun Fact, your irritating behavior doesn't have to be directed at someone specifically for them to find it problematic. I'm pretty sure you're town, so hopefully I won't find it necessary to engage with you again, and I won't be responding to you anymore. Have a nice day Zack.
You quoted a specific post and EXPLODED at me for it, when there was nothing rude or dismissive about it at all. What is your problem with me? You made up reasons to try and lynch me (literally made them up) and when that didn't work you suddenly called me town but just kept repeatedly attacking me, my personality, my playstyle, my skill level. And you had the gall to keep insisting I had a problem with you, when it has been the other way around. You beat me down so much on that particular point, articulated so clearly why I am such a shitbag, that I did voice my intentions to be more civil which I think I did.

Then you randomly trot out this line:


If you mean read scum as scum and town town, then put vote on scum leading it to a tie which was broken shortly thereafter, sure. This dismissive type of response is irritating for a number of reasons, as I'm pretty sure I've cleared myself as town quite thoroughly. What else would I expect from you however, as you still seem to be suffering from a severe case of "my ass hurts and it's your fault" itis.

When there was absolutely zero provocation. I don't even get how you got there from what you quoted.


I'm simply pointing out yet another instance where Zack is a world class asshole. I've honestly barely enjoyed this game, and it lays entirely on his method of engagement. If I wanted to listen to childish people insult each other for days at a time I'd go back to playing Dota.

I don't think you're scum, I just think your an ass.


I didn't lose my mind Zack, I'm just done interacting with someone whose first instinct is to belittle the person engaging with them, and be consistently rude and dismissive. Fun Fact, your irritating behavior doesn't have to be directed at someone specifically for them to find it problematic. I'm pretty sure you're town, so hopefully I won't find it necessary to engage with you again, and I won't be responding to you anymore. Have a nice day Zack.

??

If you are referring to what I've said to Winston, I'm literally just repeating his earlier arguments back at him and showing his hypocrisy, and some of that is naturally going to come out anyways when someone is constantly ridiculing you for being a "bad boy" as he has.

And I never threw out insults and directly attacked someone's character, which you have done repeatedly.

But you know, it feels great when half the game shits on you over, and over, and over again, and you say you'll try to be nicer and you make such an effort, then you just come in and shit all over me and call me an asshole multiple times when I didn't do anything even remotely close to eliciting such a reaction. I'm glad you took the high road here.

Notice I still haven't called you any names, unlike you, so spare me any uppity lecturing.

[Monstrdude]

Do you plan on running for Rep of District 3? Do you think you won't be elected?

I am interested in being elected only because I know I am a villager

I don't care if BSmith takes it if he's in my district

If I get a real strong scumlean I'm likely to want to be rep more tho

[Cass_]

Morning all


She's doesn't trust me for reasons even she can't explain

I explained all this before. She'll never get over it.

Serious questions:

Do you trust Monty, Monstr?

What about Visor and Winston?

Atheotes?

Bsmith?

Me?

Your reactions with me </3

It's not that I can't explain my hesitation with you, it's that I figured the paranoia wasn't worth discussing today because you're probably Town and we should be focusing on other players.

You got mad at me when I questioned you earlier on despite knowing my tendency to paranoia and instead of encouraging me to have faith, which I interpret as possibly more wolf you than Town; your interaction/reason for scumreading Barto felt weak where I would have expected you to be more suspicious early on; I don't think you could have backed off Cuth at any point and White Knighting is a thing; you voted off wagon D1, on GH D2 and initially didn't have your D3 vote resting on Barto, "I suppose" as the final reason to move was eh.

Essentially, I decided to leave you in District 3 and trust you and your judgement wrt Atheotes because your volume and an overwhelming majority of your Tone says Town/I trust you more than I trust Monty.

Was I wrong?


I'm out at work all day but will skim on mobile if I'm able.

Glgl and stay awesome Town, we're doing ok!

[Cass_]

Aww, it missed the heart.

Your reactions with me *injured heart*

[Monstrdude]

Morning all



Serious questions:

Do you trust Monty, Monstr?

What about Visor and Winston?

Atheotes?

Bsmith?

Me?

Your reactions with me </3

It's not that I can't explain my hesitation with you, it's that I figured the paranoia wasn't worth discussing today because you're probably Town and we should be focusing on other players.

You got mad at me when I questioned you earlier on despite knowing my tendency to paranoia and instead of encouraging me to have faith, which I interpret as possibly more wolf you than Town; your interaction/reason for scumreading Barto felt weak where I would have expected you to be more suspicious early on; I don't think you could have backed off Cuth at any point and White Knighting is a thing; you voted off wagon D1, on GH D2 and initially didn't have your D3 vote resting on Barto, "I suppose" as the final reason to move was eh.

Essentially, I decided to leave you in District 3 and trust you and your judgement wrt Atheotes because your volume and an overwhelming majority of your Tone says Town/I trust you more than I trust Monty.

Was I wrong?


I'm out at work all day but will skim on mobile if I'm able.

Glgl and stay awesome Town, we're doing ok!

Tentative trust for monty, visor and Winston but that seems like an information rich group should any of them be scum, and I don't think it's possible for the three or any combination thereof to be scum, so I think it's much more likely they are all villagers. We'll see how that shakes out coming in to tomorrow

My reasoning on Barto was far from weak, and a quick iso proves that. The guy couldn't stop saying "make monstrman stop using the thread as his personal notepad" all over the thread, and yes he would have absolutely worded it differently if he was town

Just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense and it also doesn't mean that it's wrong or weak

I'll do my job as all villager regardless of where I'm put I was just hoping for more of a voice and it's frustrating because it feels like you're singling me out to lessen my impact on this game

Ily tho <3 I'm not mad I just really want to win

[Askthepizzaguy]

District 1 (5)
Cass, Jabbz, Zack, Al Sips, Schema


District 2 (4)
BSmith, Winston, Visor, Riedquat


District 3 (5)
Monstr, Atheotes, Dice, (Csargo)Fenn, Monty

[Fenn]

There's not much incentive for mafia to NK Cass; had she been killed last night town would in all likelihood elect Renata who was if anything even more consensus town than Cass. It's questionable if trying to get a scumbuddy elected Chancellor is a good idea in the first place. Need to remember to ISO Renata and look at her reads, possibly she was killed for being on to someone.

FWIW Monstr I'd be cool with electing you if not for atheotes - even with his weird D2 gambit he's still one of my top townreads - and though I disagree wrt Monty town lean. With your v/v/v Visor/Monty/Winston lean what do you make of Monty being voted by the other two?

Schema's posting has dropped off a cliff since D2, would like to see more from her.

Vote: atheotes

[Monstrdude]

Vote: Atheotes

[Monstrdude]

I think it makes sense

I mean, like I said it's information rich. Monty being voted by the other to could be a distancing tactic, I guess

It just doesn't feel that way to me?

What about monty makes you think he's scummy?

[Zack]

Vote: Cass

[Montmorency]

Vote: atheotes



TNeed to remember to ISO Renata and look at her reads, possibly she was killed for being on to someone.

Or she was killed for who Cass is not on.

[Visor]

I'm just fueling your paranoia Monty

It's all in your head

[Montmorency]

I'm just fueling your paranoia Monty

It's all in your head

What's going on? I don't understand what this is saying.

[Montmorency]

I like this thought: Us who want power seek servitude in those structures of power. Ambition drives us to Cass for the milk of authority.

Pizza's authority. Her authority.

[Visor]

What's going on? I don't understand what this is saying.

i only voted you to make you feel paranoid about me and winston and drive you further into your confirmation bias

[Montmorency]

Nothing changed. You have failed.

[Montmorency]

Monterey
Cass
Atheotes
Jabbz
Dice
Zack
Monster
Winston
Visor
Fenn
Bsmith

Riedquat
Al Sipsclar
Schema

How could it be other than fennel and Winston?

We must act.

[Riedquat]

Sorry everyone, couple of pages behind! I do agree with you Cass, if townie I should be a bit better but I'm sucking bad at it, so if in doubt just lynch the lurker (me), better sooner than later, I think being replaced at this point isn't fair for the replacement just to suffer the burden of suspicion for my pathetic performance so far. ;)

[Zack]

I thought you townread Riedquat.

[Montmorency]

Lol, that's misleading. Sorry. A few posts up is not for leans but to identify Riedquat, schema, and al Sipsclar as not having shown for d4 at the time. And to reiterate the scum people.

[Monstrdude]

If we did a posts per day analysis of every player we would find that schema fell off a cliff the most I'm sure

Other players that have said significantly less as the days go by also could be checked because that's a big wolf tell a lot, especially I imagine in a game of this magnitude

[Monstrdude]

Game is too big and unmanageable to count every players posts per day without a bot tho

Too much effort so alas, I must make do

[Visor]

If we did a posts per day analysis of every player we would find that schema fell off a cliff the most I'm sure

Other players that have said significantly less as the days go by also could be checked because that's a big wolf tell a lot, especially I imagine in a game of this magnitude

pretty much

[Visor]

Vote: Schema

:shrug:

[Visor]

Don't get confused, I think its a fine vote and I've been leaning there for quite a while just meh.

[Montmorency]

Don't get confused, I think its a fine vote and I've been leaning there for quite a while just meh.

Who are Schema's partners, Visor? The only other you've pointed at so far is Dice (and just recently at that)...

[Visor]

Who are Schema's partners, Visor? The only other you've pointed at so far is Dice (and just recently at that)...

Who cares?

[Montmorency]

Who cares?

!!
!
1!!
!!!!!!!!!!

!

!

[Montmorency]

Let's put it this way: who would you lynch if Schema flips scum? Or town?

[Visor]

Let's put it this way: who would you lynch if Schema flips scum? Or town?

Haven't thought about it. Probably consider mowing through the Al Sips/Riedquat grouping after that maybe Dice

[Montmorency]

Haven't thought about it. Probably consider mowing through the Al Sips/Riedquat grouping after that maybe Dice

That would be Worst. All the scum are lurkers? Without even Fenn among them? You can't honestly believe people will just buy that, even if the current leadership dies in the meantime?

No! The buck stops here, Visor!


Slip from my notes:
if Visor scum, one of Jabbz/Al Sips likely partner (see Visor's dual spew assessment);

[Visor]

That would be Worst. All the scum are lurkers? Without even Fenn among them? You can't honestly believe people will just buy that, even if the current leadership dies in the meantime?

No! The buck stops here, Visor!


Slip from my notes:
if Visor scum, one of Jabbz/Al Sips likely partner (see Visor's dual spew assessment);

:shrug:

[Jabbz]

cass do you want district authority or do you want someone else to have it? If you want it, you have my vote, if not I'd prefer to get your vote as I don't trust Schema to be town, and I don't trust Zack's judgement.

Vote: Schema for previously mentioned reasons.
Vote: Cass unless she doesn't want it.

[Visor]

hey monty, you've been keeping notes

how many players called el barto wolfy or not town (or null)?

[Montmorency]

hey monty, you've been keeping notes

how many players called el barto wolfy or not town (or null)?

You wot? You might as well ask for a dossier on all things Barto.

I'll give you townreads and scumreads from D2.

Start D2: Monstr kinda think El Barto villager; Monstr [town]leans Barto
Early D2: Cuth doesn't like Zack, GH, and Bart; Visor simple solution - GH/Cuth/Bart/Inactive; Visor says Bart and GH kinda wolfy
Late D2: If Cuth is wolf it clears Bart (who??)**; Winston uptrends El Barto; Visor suggests GH-Cuth-Schema, GH-Bart-Schema, Cuth/BSmith or inactive/GH; Cass still doesn't like Barto; Zack teams Cuth, Bart, and Jabbz, plus Bsmith to lesser extent; Visor suggests GH-Cuth-Schema, GH-Bart-Schema, Cuth/BSmith or inactive/GH; Cass still doesn't like Barto; Zack teams Cuth, Bart, and Jabbz, plus Bsmith to lesser extent;
Start D3: Zack suspect Cass-Chox-Cuth-Bart conspiracy; Fenn found GH null, Cuth scummier than Bart and worth a lynch;
Early D3: Riedquat likes Zack and Bart; Cuth says Bart is slightly towny; Renata wants Cuth lynched, then Bart, suspicious of Zack; Fenn wants Cuth, then Bart, lynched; atheotes can't look past Cuth and Barto; Monstr now (almost?) wants to lynch Bart (pp. 83-4); Monstr says Bart-Winston unlikely scum team for antipathy; Fenn has Bart, dicetosser, and Cuth as scum (though Cuth's lean posts were towny); Monstr says Fenn/barto/monty/Schema Yolo (Least confident in schema); Zack has Barto scum; dicetosser wants Barto lynch;
Late D3: Al Sips has scum Bart, Mont, Zack, BSmith, Cuth; Jabbz has Bart and Schema as scum, maybe Bsmith & Fenn;



**https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152347-Representative-Democracy-In-Play&p=2053730819&viewfull=1#post2053730819 ; https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152347-Representative-Democracy-In-Play&p=2053730986&viewfull=1#post2053730986

[Riedquat]

Well If I were scum I already had claimed I vigged cuth instead of BSmith for the lols, the chaos and the adrenaline!

For reference, not that anybody cares, I defended Barto, and thought he was town... with this result I'm paranoid enough to question myself if all my hunches were or not correct... and for what is going on in the thread I'm concerned!
So my thoughts on everyone, I do not do reads!

Monstrbro: town
Montmorency: town? Am I sure? No! He reading me town, makes me nervous, same thing with the odd behavior against Visor on D1/D2... town... yeah... almost sure
Cass_: town or a master criminal mind, but seems legit town, why is she alive? Perhaps the scum thinks there is a doctor around and do not what to miss a kill... it is very possible
Al Sipsclar: not a clue
Zack: keeps being pretty aggressive but still think he is town
dicetosser1: umm, seems town here and there, and odd here and there again, not sure, mostly town
atheotes: town, something town
BSmith: umm and umm and umm, reasons and motives seems completely legit but why the reveal? Concerned, IF I were scum with an extra kill ability I would have done the same, big IF but can't remove it from my mind.
Winston Hughes: odd, not sure of him anymore
Jabbz: not a clue
Schema: same as dicetosser
Visor: more odd than winston, honestly didn't like his day 1 reads, mostly because when he is town and start with those hunch reads he usually dies soon, but now we are at D4 and there are no substantial reads, come on Visor, read me, we both know you can with this low amount from me...
Fenn: more townie feeling than scummy feeling
Riedquat: scummy as heck, you should lynch this dude assap!

I regret saying the previous district sucked... so whoever wants my vote, do your job and convince me! :seriousclown:

[Montmorency]

Your district choices for rep are BSmith and Visor.

Of Fenn and Schema, whom are you less sure of?

[atheotes]

As I said, I haven't read about a third of the total posts here (they were probably all made by Monstrbro, but still) so I don't feel I can put them in real order, not so early in the game anyway.

El Barto: obviously town (read my role PM)
Cass_: highly likely town (50% success rate is not bad compared to usual town performances, if she were scum she would have just lynched me)

The following are neither cleared nor scum, these are just comments. I haven't done an ISO on anyone (my wifi broke down six times today, if I counted properly) and it's mostly vibes.
Also, someone posted something early on D2 about people being cleared by their actions on late D1, I agreed with that post and whatever I posted then should overwrite anything I post here.

Monstrbro: I'm not sure what to make of this. Someone shut him up though, he makes the thread unreadable.
Renata: pooo-ssible town.
Al Sipsclar: poo-sible town.
Cuthillius: scumscum
Zack: too aggressive, tries not to reply to me
dicetosser1 - ???
atheotes - probable town
BSmith - probable town
Winston Hughes - drunk, pretended my ‘I killed Sooh’ thing was real.
Jabbz - ???
Schema - don't know what to compare against.
Visor: can't bloody read him, could be scum or not. Don't see him as scum with Monty thought.
Riedquat: taking the mickey of us
Csargo/Fenn: Has posted too little.
Montmorency: powahgrabbah, my current vote.

only content provided by El barto.
the Alsips town read is the only one that stands out for me.

[Al Sipsclar]

Vote: Cass_


FTR ISO'd Al Sips in Visor's Small Mafia (Town) and Tokens of my Confection (Maf) myself. AFAICT he's actually wordier/more involved in the latter so my meta is probably outdated/imo zero questioning here is null in itself. Still want to see him more involved in this game.

*Offers chocolate*

Funny, I was not realizing that the questioning other players was expected from me. Makes sense, but I was never thinking that was a requirement for the game.

Unfortunately, I have only so much time to play it. Today I wasted my time allotment looking at Fenn.


Oh, well probably Cuth still, plus his flip would shed light on the people who had pushed/not pushed/defended him, which a lynch of a lurker (Riedquat for example) would not have done.

So, what have you figured out from Cuth's flip?


I don't see a scum team going to great lengths to implicate Cass when they could just NK her.

Going back over D2, I don't like dicetosser's history. Flipped town GH and Zack/Renata who I have townreads on think he is town, but between the posts on mechanics and his own meta, and the pointless arguments with El Barto and Montmorency, there's a lot of what feels like driving up the postcount without contributing much. Seemed oddly insistent that we not be too sure of Dp101/Renata/Cass/atheotes's innocence too.

Calls Dice's arguments with El Barto and Monty pointless.


Monstr, I must be pretty dumb because I don't see how that quoted El Barto post screams scum. I mean your posts do have a stream-of-consciousness quality to them (a towny sign imo). Would town Barto really word that post differently?

Anyway.

Paranoia says that Visor and Zack pushing Cuth D2 was suspiciously coordinated, buuut I did like eg Visor's interactions with Monty and Zack in general, and my only doubt on Cuth scum is that he's sounded almost too scummy to be scum, so I'm only going to think more about that if Cuth is lynched and flips town.

Current read list, roughly ordered:

definitely villagers:
Atheotes
Renata
Cass

probably villager:
Monstrbro
Visor
Zack

(Would preferentially vote any of the above as rep if they had been in my district)

villager lean:
Winston
Schema
Reidquat
Al Sipsclar

no idea:
Jabbz
BSmith
Montmorency (lot of posts, and I agree with him wrt districting and Cuth...but weird tone I don't like)

scum lean:
dicetosser
El Barto

probably scum:
Cuthillius (strangely find his last few posts villagery, but his earlier stuff still makes me think scum)

Vote: Cuthillius


I don't exactly understand the reasoning around that particular quote but I do think Barto is scummy overall. Wasn't trying to knock your read of him in general.


Fenn - have you followed up on Schema?
Thoughts?



Reads spoilered for size.

Mindmeld with the first part of the response to Monstr.

Rigid vote/read on Cuth with multiple reservations is strange.

Can agree with /understand most of the rest of the read order from a Town point of view/things you've explained but:

Why is Atheotes definitely a villager?
Why is Al Sips in with your villager leans?



Went back and ISO'd her, still think she's villagery. Interactions with Renata sounded natural; good response to Cuth's Sooh-pushing shenanigans EoD1; voting self for rep D2 was a bit odd and still unexplained though. Hasn't posted since the 24th so it would be nice if she could return and give thoughts.

Related, early D2 Montmorency pushing for wolf/town in Visor/Cuth and lynching Visor first for no reasons given that I could find. Also didn't seem to be concerned about Renata's vote for him, and I don't think anybody else really went after him? Gut says possible scum trying to straddle the line between too towny too live and too scummy not to lynch.


Yes I have reservations about Cuthillius, it's possible he's town. I'm not going to pretend to be more certain than I actually am. Still think he's the scummiest player around.




Atheotes' posting has a town perspective to it in general. Add to that and he was pushing for Cuth or Chox to be lynched EoD1 which looks good for him in light of Chox's flip. Hasn't coasted on this either, he's still contributing and trying to solve.

Al Sips is just a feeling. I like his tone, and reasons for reads that he gave.

This is the reason I wanted to look at Fenn. A three-alarm fire for me. This must be the first time a player, who never played with me before, likes my tone! and reasons! I didn't think I gave any reasons for my reads or votes, except maybe once when Winston asked me directly about a couple of folks.

However, with the rest I couldn't find anything I'd disagree with, so at the moment Fenn remains a null for me.



Mea culpa. Sorry for being so obtuse Cuthillius.

Basically no way Monstr isn't town, there's only so deep a deep cover can get before it's self-defeating. Similar for atheotes, it's not impossible that a scum atheotes would assume Cass would choose Barto and thus switch his vote to take the credit, but that's also silly when there's much more plausible theories to look at. Feeling a little better about dicetosser too.

Now that my strongest scum read was actually a villager the whole time I got to step back and reevaluate.


I don't think it's very likely scum would go to great lengths to bus Barto when they're already a man down on D3. It's not like Barto was an unstoppable wagon you'd look scummy for easing up on either, the votes were close enough one could arguably change their mind midway.


Fenn

What do you think of Visor, Zack, and Monty?


Let me get back to you on that. First thoughts without rereading are that Zack maybe improves a little from wanting to lynch Barto in addition to Cuth (who knows if he would heave kept that up) and being the target of Barto's accusations, Visor slides a little with his dicetosser vote - not weighing in on Cuth vs Barto - and Monty, idk.


Going back through D3 I see Zack being very firm on Barto being scum, BSmith breadcrumbing Vig on #2759/2760, Monstr asked me pointed questions in a post I completely missed (sorry!), and Monty throwing shade on Monstr over his Barto pushes on D2/D3.

In hindsight, Montmorency's repeated argument for lynching Cuth regardless of whether he was the scummiest should have bothered me more than it did. Even if you accept that he'd be on the block until lynched (not a guarantee IMO - I was starting to think he looked better by EoD3) you should try to lynch the guy you think is a wolf. Going for Cuth like that is an attempt to duck responsibility for a possible town flip.


There's not much incentive for mafia to NK Cass; had she been killed last night town would in all likelihood elect Renata who was if anything even more consensus town than Cass. It's questionable if trying to get a scumbuddy elected Chancellor is a good idea in the first place. Need to remember to ISO Renata and look at her reads, possibly she was killed for being on to someone.

FWIW Monstr I'd be cool with electing you if not for atheotes - even with his weird D2 gambit he's still one of my top townreads - and though I disagree wrt Monty town lean. With your v/v/v Visor/Monty/Winston lean what do you make of Monty being voted by the other two?

Schema's posting has dropped off a cliff since D2, would like to see more from her.

Vote: atheotes

[Al Sipsclar]

Al Sipsclar

What about my posts makes you have "no idea" about my alignment and why?

Your posting style feels "high volume low pressure", which makes it hard to remember what were your points, and gives no desire to go back and re-read you.
But I think your El Barto push elevates you to town now.

[Al Sipsclar]

Again, probably missing the EOD today.


Vote: Visor
Vote: El Barto

Likely, not going to be around EOD.

Not lynching:
Cass_
Renata
atheotes
Winston Hughes
Visor

No idea:
Jabbz
dicetosser1
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat
Monstrbro

Ok to lynch:
Cuthillius
BSmith
Zack
Montmorency
El Barto

I'm leaning town on Dice and Jabbz for lynching El Barto.

Visor is downgraded because of cases he pushed and votes he voted.

Not lynching:
Cass_
atheotes
Monstrbro
Winston Hughes
BSmith

Lean town:
dicetosser1
Jabbz

No idea:
Visor
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat

Ok to lynch:
Zack
Montmorency

Monty at least shows some effort, though I don't see how's he helping town. I think I have not yet played town with Monty, either of us was always a scum.
I'm not a fan of Zack's abrasive style. I don't feel like he wants to cooperate with town. I've been mindmelding/agreeing with everything Winston and Renata said about Zack.

Between Monty and Zack, I'll Vote: Zack first.

[Visor]

Maybe it really is as simple as Schema/Al Sips/Dice

[Visor]

Guarantee you Al Sips ain't gonna respond or note the answer to the questions he just asked

[Riedquat]

Your district choices for rep are BSmith and Visor.

Of Fenn and Schema, whom are you less sure of?

Schema...

[BSmith]

BSmith
Al Sips

I hope to have a bit more time in an hour or so to give some reads.

[BSmith]

... that should be:

vote: BSmith
vote: Al Sips

[Visor]

Vote: schema

[Montmorency]

Maybe it really is as simple as Schema/Al Sips/Dice

:brood:

And do we really have openly a couple of hours till EoD? We evidently need more time, pizza. Voter suppression!

[atheotes]

When does day end?

[Zack]

:brood:

And do we really have openly a couple of hours till EoD? We evidently need more time, pizza. Voter suppression!

Krusty Krab unfair, Visorslash is in there.

[atheotes]

Oh...sorry guys. Bit tied up with RL

[Montmorency]

Prior votes in parentheses.
<tbody>

Tally #D1 (Post #3193)



Blue
Green
Red


DISTRICT ONE
Rep
Chancellor
Lynch


Cass


Al Sipsclar (invalid)


Jabbz
Cass

Schema


Zack
(Zack), Cass

Winston Hughes


Al Sipsclar
Cass

Zack

Schema





DISTRICT TWO





BSmith
BSmith

Al Sips


Winston Hughes


Montmorency


Visor
Visor

(Dice, Monty, Schema), Schema


Riedquat





DISTRICT THREE





Monstbro
atheotes

Schema


Atheotes





Dicetosser1





Fenn
atheotes




Montmorency
Atheotes

Winston Hughes

[TR]
</tbody>



District Prospects:

District 1: Cass Rep, ??? Lynch (Cass invalid voting, 3 candidates).
District 2: ????????
District 3: Atheotes Rep, No Lynch (Atheotes not voting)

Pizza, at this rate we get a No Lynch.

[Montmorency]

Error: Row with Schema in District 1 missing, but Schema has not voted (or posted) yet.

[Cass_]

KK.

More thoughts wrt today's phase incoming then I'll ISO/make my decision.



Like I said to someone else, I already talked about this in the thread. If you want my reads on a dead guy, go find them. I'm not wasting my time on such a pointless inquiry.

It's not pointless, TLDR you pushed and voted a villager over a wolf, justifying the vote yesterday with a theory that he must've been a PR wolf which was ?; you say the way he went about pushing Visor was 'typically scummy' for Cuth and I disagree, having seen him do similar in Rappers as Town. Shutting down the conversation instead of justifying your POV here with specifics is NAGL.




so either I bussed my partners in thread unnecessarily and early

or I'm just town

There's a difference between bussing and saying 'Barto wolfy' and agreeing that Chox looked bad after Renata pointed it out, especially when your votes were never actually on those players D1, D2, D3.




before doing any re-reads or anything, just lazily going off my memory

zack
Zack

essentially mechanically clear
BSmith
Cass

essentially tonally clear
Visor
Monstr

i think they voted wolves when it mattered?
Jabbz
Atheotes
Dice (?)

lolcleared?
Monty

i don't think they fit in above categories?
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat
Al Sips
Winston

Are these in order/Is the bottom tier your WTL?

Is there a difference in 'tonally clear' and 'voted wolves' in the order of things for you/how do you arrange these town > scum when combined?

[Cass_]

I've been thinking a lot this game about how maybe I've been too quick to clear monstr because of heroes, but I didn't really pay attention to him in heroes since we were teammates, and I don't want to read heroes.

But I think he had no reason to defend cuth the way he did as a wolf and I hate it when people keep townreads in POE because of dumb fear about their skill.

Bold here is off in combination with linking scummonstr games and praise - encourages a fear you say is 'dumb'. Feels prepared/staged to me on readthrough. Possibility of Winston/Zack WW exists.

What alignment were both of you in Heroes and why would that make you too quick to clear monstr here?



Maybe atheotes is her scum partner and by taking the momentum away from tiebreaker he took the pressure of decisionmaking off her. All part of the cunning plan...


Atheotes was perfectly reasonable in his calculation, even if it wasn't strictly necessary to achieve his final objective. Just a slight difference from putting an extra vote on a winning wagon, and that difference is all the purer for the hypothetical mechanical efficacy here.


Intended sarcasm or no in the first post, I don't like the combination of these both acknowledging the same event and arguing it from both sides. Atheotes could be either, but I disagree with the second bold, especially since it occurred after the decision had been made public and an early hammer has the end result of perfect interference if scum - Timing and explanation not adding up leans that act to the scummier side here for me right now, but you playing both sides makes me hesitate.

TLDR Increases chance of Monty scum if atheotes Town.

[Cass_]

This game has been exhausting

:) :) :)

Vote: Schema

What do you make of (Csargo)/Fenn?



Tentative trust for monty, visor and Winston but that seems like an information rich group should any of them be scum, and I don't think it's possible for the three or any combination thereof to be scum, so I think it's much more likely they are all villagers. We'll see how that shakes out coming in to tomorrow

My reasoning on Barto was far from weak, and a quick iso proves that. The guy couldn't stop saying "make monstrman stop using the thread as his personal notepad" all over the thread, and yes he would have absolutely worded it differently if he was town

Just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense and it also doesn't mean that it's wrong or weak

I'll do my job as all villager regardless of where I'm put I was just hoping for more of a voice and it's frustrating because it feels like you're singling me out to lessen my impact on this game

Ily tho <3 I'm not mad I just really want to win

KK.

Considering Barto, it's possible I let the fake-feeling from his note-pad argument leak into my read of you in that situation/didn't adequately consider how much those comments would ping you if you're Town.

WRT Districts, I put you and Renata with me and made it very clear I was ok with either of you taking the role. I was watching what you did with it, but ultimately that's not limiting, that's a sign of tentative trust. This phase I put you D3 because ?atheotes and the other option was with me again (which you reversed on last phase) or D2, which is likely to be headed up by a claimed PR.

You can use your voice as much or as little as you want, and there's nothing to say you can't use your voice within a District just because you're not Rep?

All players should be speaking up within their Districts, pulling together a Town Core, trying to influence that vote/avoid the counter-influence from Scum. It's one of the reasons I've been advocating for representative votes by District Reps - more players get a say in where the District vote goes. You don't have to be the actual Rep to have a voice. So yeah, if you're sensing restriction, that's not at all the intention from me.

Just because I question my current lean of you and things that stand out to me about your play doesn't mean I don't have you likely Town, or that I'm trying to lessen your impact on the game - it means I have an eye on you/am trying to work with you to figure you and the rest of the game out.

What do you make of Visor's move on Dice? I can't shake the feeling he's being opportunistic/something isn't right.

Who's outside your Town core / in your WTL today?

What's your thought on

Me

Atheotes

Zack


and the lower posters aorn?

[Schema]

Dammit don't lynch me >.< scummy af late entrance, sorry for being AWOL. I need to catch up.

[Montmorency]

Atheotes could be either, but I disagree with the second bold, especially since it occurred after the decision had been made public and an early hammer has the end result of perfect interference if scum

I don't understand - what early hammer? What interference? As I said, it only makes scum if atheotes is running interference for you, just to confuse things a little. That's nothing to give credit to, however.


TLDR Increases chance of Monty scum if atheotes Town

But we already know Atheotes is town! Your sudden doubts can't change it.

[Schema]

Is EOD soon?

[atheotes]

Vote: atheotes

[atheotes]

Vote: Schema

[Zack]

it is pointless

of course it's in order

did you even read what i said about monstr? I have never said he was anything but town this game. I was defending his skill and honor.

[Schema]

Vote: Schema

Yes, yes, I know.

Just checked the timer.

[Cass_]

Sorry everyone, couple of pages behind! I do agree with you Cass, if townie I should be a bit better but I'm sucking bad at it, so if in doubt just lynch the lurker (me), better sooner than later, I think being replaced at this point isn't fair for the replacement just to suffer the burden of suspicion for my pathetic performance so far. ;)

At this point lurking isn't fair :P , regardless of your alignment, especially if you're Town. It's an internet yelling game, just work with the other players/put out more of your thoughts. Reads lists etc like #3178 are good, regardless of your alignment :P

Don't hate that list actually, but Riedquat - YOLO - who's most trustworthy/most scummiest to you?



cass do you want district authority or do you want someone else to have it? If you want it, you have my vote, if not I'd prefer to get your vote as I don't trust Schema to be town, and I don't trust Zack's judgement.

Vote: Schema for previously mentioned reasons.
Vote: Cass unless she doesn't want it.

It's more about who you want to be Rep and why :P but we need to consolidate if we're going to make a lynch.

You mentioned not liking Monty/Monstr yesterday, where are your thoughts on each of them today?
Thoughts on Al Sips/Csargo(Fenn) v Schema? I'm leaning in this direction though I don't think it's gonna be that easy.

What do you make of Visor/Dice?

[Montmorency]

For the record, I stand by my earlier evaluation that Cuth town makes Schema scum less likely.

[Cass_]

Sorry everyone, couple of pages behind! I do agree with you Cass, if townie I should be a bit better but I'm sucking bad at it, so if in doubt just lynch the lurker (me), better sooner than later, I think being replaced at this point isn't fair for the replacement just to suffer the burden of suspicion for my pathetic performance so far. ;)

At this point lurking isn't fair :P , regardless of your alignment, especially if you're Town. It's an internet yelling game, just work with the other players/put out more of your thoughts. Reads lists etc like #3178 are good, regardless of your alignment :P

Don't hate that list actually, but Riedquat - YOLO - who's most trustworthy/most scummiest to you?



cass do you want district authority or do you want someone else to have it? If you want it, you have my vote, if not I'd prefer to get your vote as I don't trust Schema to be town, and I don't trust Zack's judgement.

Vote: Schema for previously mentioned reasons.
Vote: Cass unless she doesn't want it.

It's more about who you want to be Rep and why :P but we need to consolidate if we're going to make a lynch.

You mentioned not liking Monty/Monstr yesterday, where are your thoughts on each of them today?
Thoughts on Al Sips/Csargo(Fenn) v Schema? I'm leaning in this direction though I don't think it's gonna be that easy.

What do you make of Visor/Dice?




You wot? You might as well ask for a dossier on all things Barto.

I'll give you townreads and scumreads from D2.

Start D2: Monstr kinda think El Barto villager; Monstr [town]leans Barto
Early D2: Cuth doesn't like Zack, GH, and Bart; Visor simple solution - GH/Cuth/Bart/Inactive; Visor says Bart and GH kinda wolfy
Late D2: If Cuth is wolf it clears Bart (who??)**; Winston uptrends El Barto; Visor suggests GH-Cuth-Schema, GH-Bart-Schema, Cuth/BSmith or inactive/GH; Cass still doesn't like Barto; Zack teams Cuth, Bart, and Jabbz, plus Bsmith to lesser extent; Visor suggests GH-Cuth-Schema, GH-Bart-Schema, Cuth/BSmith or inactive/GH; Cass still doesn't like Barto; Zack teams Cuth, Bart, and Jabbz, plus Bsmith to lesser extent;
Start D3: Zack suspect Cass-Chox-Cuth-Bart conspiracy; Fenn found GH null, Cuth scummier than Bart and worth a lynch;
Early D3: Riedquat likes Zack and Bart; Cuth says Bart is slightly towny; Renata wants Cuth lynched, then Bart, suspicious of Zack; Fenn wants Cuth, then Bart, lynched; atheotes can't look past Cuth and Barto; Monstr now (almost?) wants to lynch Bart (pp. 83-4); Monstr says Bart-Winston unlikely scum team for antipathy; Fenn has Bart, dicetosser, and Cuth as scum (though Cuth's lean posts were towny); Monstr says Fenn/barto/monty/Schema Yolo (Least confident in schema); Zack has Barto scum; dicetosser wants Barto lynch;
Late D3: Al Sips has scum Bart, Mont, Zack, BSmith, Cuth; Jabbz has Bart and Schema as scum, maybe Bsmith & Fenn;



**https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152347-Representative-Democracy-In-Play&p=2053730819&viewfull=1#post2053730819 ; https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152347-Representative-Democracy-In-Play&p=2053730986&viewfull=1#post2053730986

FTR I'm missing from D3 with WTL/top Scum Barto - with reasons. Not sure about anyone else.


Again, probably missing the EOD today.


I'm leaning town on Dice and Jabbz for lynching El Barto.

Visor is downgraded because of cases he pushed and votes he voted.

Not lynching:
Cass_
atheotes
Monstrbro
Winston Hughes
BSmith

Lean town:
dicetosser1
Jabbz

No idea:
Visor
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat

Ok to lynch:
Zack
Montmorency

Monty at least shows some effort, though I don't see how's he helping town. I think I have not yet played town with Monty, either of us was always a scum.
I'm not a fan of Zack's abrasive style. I don't feel like he wants to cooperate with town. I've been mindmelding/agreeing with everything Winston and Renata said about Zack.

Between Monty and Zack, I'll Vote: Zack first.

I can agree with Dice looking Towny from yesterday's lynch atp - it's consistent with his Town meta of making lynches go through, and with his read of Cuth.

I have to re-look/take a proper look at Zack and his WTL today.

What keeps Visor out of the lower tier for you if you don't like the cases he's pushed/his votes?

[Schema]

Listen, any townies present for EOD, I'm not a bad choice to lynch because I haven't been here and the low posters are easy to pick off. I'm a horrible choice if you want to actually lynch scum.

El Barto/Chox being low posters, it ain't looking good for me but whatever. If anyone wants to talk to me I'll be here through EOD.

[Schema]

For the record, I stand by my earlier evaluation that Cuth town makes Schema scum less likely.

Why are you saying this now?

[Montmorency]

Schema, my ride-or-die group is Winston-Visor-Fenn for scum. Al Sipsclar could be one in exchange. Wot u think

[Montmorency]

Why are you saying this now?

This is what I said D3. I haven't yet spoken about you today while pushing alternatives. See my post just now.

[Schema]

Schema, my ride-or-die group is Winston-Visor-Fenn for scum. Al Sipsclar could be one in exchange. Wot u think

Pal, the only one I'm really eh about right now is Visor and it's because he's still alive. I need to go back and look at a particular game of his though to be sure.

That said, I wanted to lynch you early on as well lol.

This game has been exhausting for me, probably because we have a couple deep and skilled wolves and I can't sort out who they are.

[Schema]

I'm sick of this game.

Just go ahead and lynch me.

When I show up town, lynch Monty and Zack.

Do not waver on this, they are interference-running, poe-expanding, agenda-setting scum.

vote: Monty

Looks like I'm the the bigger lynch candidate today... what do you make of this post Montmorency?

[Schema]

Fenn is a candidate on the basis of rand scum s t f o alone, but let me see what contributions he made.

[Zack]

don't talk about that please

[Montmorency]

Looks like I'm the the bigger lynch candidate today... what do you make of this post Montmorency?

Looked like OMGUS post. I note that Al Sipsclar jives well with the Monty-Zack theory.


FTR I'm missing from D3 with WTL/top Scum Barto - with reasons.

I typically don't notate on your content unless it's off-wagon. You were Barto (lynch) Fan#1. Also, I think I accidentally overwrote something in D2 with a copy-paste...

[Zack]

schema popping in this close to eod is not a good look

seen plenty of wolves who would do nothing all phase then burst in right at eod

it's not really something i can remember villagers doing

[Cass_]

it is pointless

of course it's in order

did you even read what i said about monstr? I have never said he was anything but town this game. I was defending his skill and honor.

Is not. Unless your point is I should just mark it down as scummy and move on :rolleyes: Again, AFAICT you based a vote and massive push on TownCuth over ScumBarto based on vague/generalised reasons inconsistent with his meta. Gonna go ahead and mark that and the refusal to talk about it as scum.

Kk for order.

Ya, I read it, and lol'd at Crunkus / ham sandwich etc, but pointing it all out, and the way you did it still feels odd so putting it out there. YOLO.



For the record, I stand by my earlier evaluation that Cuth town makes Schema scum less likely.
Can't remember why this was.
Do remember that Fenn sheeping Schema/failing to recognise she Townread Sooh but pushed/voted GH stood out, as did sticking to Cuth vote at the same time as saying his recent posts were Towny.

[Cass_]

Zack - a Winston lynch doesn't look like it's happening, who's your next WTL?

[Cass_]

Jabbz Al Sipsclar

Are you both here?

[Zack]

I did not make a "massive" push for him over Barto. I was pretty supportive of a Barto lynch for several days. In any case I am, like, one thousand times more concerned with finding more wolves than defending an incorrect read I made on a dead person to you. I just don't care.

[Schema]

Can't remember why this was.
Do remember that Fenn sheeping Schema/failing to recognise she Townread Sooh but pushed/voted GH stood out, as did sticking to Cuth vote at the same time as saying his recent posts were Towny.

Was Fenn sheeping me after subbing in?

What are your thoughts on Fenn's contributions today? Mostly sheepy, or has it been like a townie trying to play catchup?

[Zack]

Zack - a Winston lynch doesn't look like it's happening, who's your next WTL?

Probably Schema. Maybe Fenn. I'm not going to be a rep anyways, so :shrug:

[Schema]

schema popping in this close to eod is not a good look

seen plenty of wolves who would do nothing all phase then burst in right at eod

it's not really something i can remember villagers doing

Yes, thank you for noting what I already noted.

Who are you looking at most closely outside of me, and why?

[Zack]

Yes, thank you for noting what I already noted.

Who are you looking at most closely outside of me, and why?

People who haven't cleared themselves

[Cass_]

Was Fenn sheeping me after subbing in?

What are your thoughts on Fenn's contributions today? Mostly sheepy, or has it been like a townie trying to play catchup?

WRT Fenn, nothing clearing in today's actions, NAGL promising more and not coming back.
Pretty much same tier as you aorn.


Probably Schema. Maybe Fenn. I'm not going to be a rep anyways, so :shrug:
See above for me.

And same as what I said to Monstr. Just because you're not rep doesn't mean you don't have a voice. If you're Town, speak up and help the District make a decision.

Leaning here unless YOLO on tinfoil for someone else to reconsider overnight in case of tie.

[Schema]

I am banning the word deepwolf

Ftr, I approve of this choice.

[Zack]

what is your reads list like cass?

[Monstrdude]

al sipsclar

[Schema]

WRT Fenn, nothing clearing in today's actions, NAGL promising more and not coming back.
Pretty much same tier as you aorn.


We're a classy tier, we are.

Did Visor ramp up suspicions on you, and if so, what do you make of it?

[Schema]

al sipsclar

Por que?

[Monstrdude]

unvote
Vote: al sipsclar

[Monstrdude]

Por que?

Cause I felt like it

[Zack]

schema you have said stuff since popping in but I don't think you've given any reads?

[Fenn]

I think it makes sense

I mean, like I said it's information rich. Monty being voted by the other to could be a distancing tactic, I guess

It just doesn't feel that way to me?

What about monty makes you think he's scummy?

Late, but the weird insistence on lynching Cuthillius regardless of whether he was the scummiest player, the many cryptic posts that I thought were deliberately unclear, and the whole 'Csargo slot is probably lolscum' bugged me. Generally his posts feel unhelpful to me, but he's said some things I find reasonable (Winston's recent behaviour is just bizarre imo) too, so I'm finding it hard to get a read on him. I get the impression he has this unique posting style as town or scum, but I've never played with him before.

Recent proliferation of votes on Schema I don't like, could be wolves in there. Going to try and skim over Renata before EoD.

[Fenn]

At the same time Schema's posts since coming back are not encouraging.

[Montmorency]

Cause I felt like it

Infected with the Zack?

[Monstrdude]

Late, but the weird insistence on lynching Cuthillius regardless of whether he was the scummiest player, the many cryptic posts that I thought were deliberately unclear, and the whole 'Csargo slot is probably lolscum' bugged me. Generally his posts feel unhelpful to me, but he's said some things I find reasonable (Winston's recent behaviour is just bizarre imo) too, so I'm finding it hard to get a read on him. I get the impression he has this unique posting style as town or scum, but I've never played with him before.

Recent proliferation of votes on Schema I don't like, could be wolves in there. Going to try and skim over Renata before EoD.

Fenn is a villager i think

Like 80% sure maybe 85

[Monstrdude]

Infected with the Zack?

Also hasn't been sitting with me all game, and the feeling of being stuck on one or two lynches is a brilliant catalyst for paranoid thinking

[Schema]

schema you have said stuff since popping in but I don't think you've given any reads?

Yeah, because I'm not caught up. I'm reading rn.

[Monstrdude]

All game = all day

I'm tired and just woke up after a strange night of sleep and I kinda wanna go back to bed

But I must trod onwards as the village needs me

[Schema]

Cause I felt like it

Mmkay then.

You voted me a while back I think. Why are you taking your vote off of me? Most here think I'm a good candidate. Explain yourself a little bit at least, because I've had you as town most of the game and I can't imagine this vote is coming from nowhere.

[Cass_]

Zack

Cass
BSmith


Monstr/Dice/Jabbz/?Atheotes

Monty/Winston/Zack/Visor

Schema/Fenn


Could be anything/YOLO Town:
Sips / Riedquat.
Sips' game mimics last Town game of his I read in tone and volume and is contrast to scum game - that in itself is null, need to look closer at his lists wrt flips etc
Riedquat's list didn't look to bad, but IIRC there's nothing clearing so far.



Vote: Cass

Vote: Unvote


Gonna compare Schema/Fenn. Gut's been more bothered by Fenn.

[Visor]

Vote: Al Sipsclar

[Zack]

Yeah, because I'm not caught up. I'm reading rn.

Okay, but it worries me that you have posted that much without really advancing toward solving anything

[Zack]

Also hasn't been sitting with me all game, and the feeling of being stuck on one or two lynches is a brilliant catalyst for paranoid thinking

i'll sit with you monstr <3

[BSmith]

apologies. work swallowed me. Not sure I have much time for real posting but will pop in and out over the next 30 min or so.

[Monstrdude]

Mmkay then.

You voted me a while back I think. Why are you taking your vote off of me? Most here think I'm a good candidate. Explain yourself a little bit at least, because I've had you as town most of the game and I can't imagine this vote is coming from nowhere.

Because I like you and for .5 seconds I thought you could be town and that was enough

My alignment Sips reasoning hasn't changed since yesterday he did some weird things with his reads list

Overall I kind of feel like this PoE might be all villagers but that would have to mean that bad things are happening and we are not gonna have a fun next few days and I don't want to live in that world

[Monstrdude]

Alignment sips