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Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:09
Ok, just finished reading the mafia thread. Just one question, what is wogging?
Stands for Wrath Of God.
Modkilling someone for inactivity.
Had Pelican failed to post today, he'd have been modkilled and I would be flapping in the breeze as mechanically hard outed scum.
I would have conceded on the spot and said not the best way to lose a game, but you win some, you lose some, and would have said "note to self: have a plan B in case extremely busy and often absent mafia partner goes AWOL".
Town would have earned their win with atheotes' bulletproof slot drawing a kill. After that blunder by us, it was town's game to win again.
El Barto
10-12-2016, 05:12
Dp101, I don't understand why you're upset at being played. It's the whole point of the game!
(and thus a wonderful grudge can be born, and you can nightkill atpg one day with prejudice if you're scum)
Oh, also one more thing I'm trying to figure out. Why did you keep wanting to NK me? I wasn't doing anything particularly threatening, but my name came up reasonably often in discussions of who to kill. Why not go after someone who appeared to have a power role? The only solid rationale I saw for my death would be that it would confuse people, but I can't see how.
Dp101, I don't understand why you're upset at being played. It's the whole point of the game!
(and thus a wonderful grudge can be born, and you can nightkill atpg one day with prejudice if you're scum)
Because this was my first loss, and I was enjoying a 100% win rate, which is now shattered ;-; Also, because no one likes feeling like they have been lied to. Its one thing to have someone you have barely interacted with flip, its another for someone who has given you advice throughout the game to suddenly turn out to have been lying.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:19
It's not fun to feel like you got played.
Even if it's an expected outcome of the game, it's a big time investment on the part of the player and if they saw their efforts fail then it causes a lot of self-doubt.
Remember: It's a guessing game on the internets where some people weren't very active. It's hard to get a good read off of Pelican, jht, Al Sips, etc, particularly early on. Think of it like a casual game of poker with your friends.
The chips don't matter, it's all for fun. If you lose this round, you'll win the next three. Even if it was a very long night of playing, it's just one session. There will be many and you'll be on the winning side plenty of times.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:21
Because this was my first loss, and I was enjoying a 100% win rate, which is now shattered ;-; Also, because no one likes feeling like they have been lied to. Its one thing to have someone you have barely interacted with flip, its another for someone who has given you advice throughout the game to suddenly turn out to have been lying.
It will make the first time (and it won't be the only time) you defeat me while being scum and I'm town, all the more satisfying.
When it happens, you totally need to say "When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master" and post an image of darth vader.
That will make up for not being able to post this (https://youtu.be/FfvTXACPv30?t=1s) if I had won this time.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:28
Thanks to Zack for organizing and hosting this game.
Thanks to Khaan for being a valued member of the team, I think you played well enough that if it wasn't exactly the town vig you were voting, you'd have gone undetected for a while.
Oh yes, I forgot. Thank you Zack for hosting! Still annoyed I got vanilla, but whatever.
El Barto
10-12-2016, 05:33
You're redirecting your anger towards the GM. Good, good. Embrace the Dark Side.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:33
That will make up for not being able to post this (https://youtu.be/FfvTXACPv30?t=1s) if I had won this time.
Flaws build character.
I'm going to say what I said about Visor after only seeing him play a couple of times: If you stick with this, you will become one of the best players I will have ever come across. The force is strong with with you. With experience, you will trust yourself more (and your votes, before being persuaded to move them, were winning on several rounds), and you will also have the experience and rhetorical tools necessary to detect and combat verbal trickery better.
That's all you're lacking, is experience. I'm not just saying that to butter you up. I rarely pass out such judgments of new players after only seeing them in one game.
You have the fundamentals and the drive and the WIM to become truly great.
Don't really like the "VT gets to talk after death" thing very much from a design perspective.
Didn't happen this game, but had a strong player been spk'd night 1 and flipped VT, I think thats really rough on the wolves for no real reason.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:38
Reminds me of Luke Skywalker facing the Emperor. You have what it takes to be one of the strongest Jedi, but you just happened to go against a foe that was your match. Had some more experienced villain switched allegiances and lynched me with you, the death star would have blowed up.
Also, everything is star wars with me, apparently.
El Barto
10-12-2016, 05:40
Flaws build character.
Not to be confused with being quite the character.
Don't really like the "VT gets to talk after death" thing very much from a design perspective.
Didn't happen this game, but had a strong player been spk'd night 1 and flipped VT, I think thats really rough on the wolves for no real reason.
spk'd?
Not to be confused with being quite the character.
spk'd?
Strong Player Killed
Thank you for the strong praise. Now I just need to not let it go to my head.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:42
Don't really like the "VT gets to talk after death" thing very much from a design perspective.
Didn't happen this game, but had a strong player been spk'd night 1 and flipped VT, I think thats really rough on the wolves for no real reason.
Was a common practice on this site at one time. There are several strategies for dealing with that. Dead vanilla towns have no vote and know nothing particularly special. And the mafia can play against their minds just as well as they can play against live townies. It's easier for the scums to blend in when everyone starts sheeping the confirmed townies. Just like when they sheep masons or a cop. I've been on scum teams who have defeated a couple dozen towns who have tried such brute methods. When the town unites too much, it's anti-analysis for vote purposes. And when the town leaders know nothing, that's a recipe for an easier sweep, even.
I remember a truly terrible game I played way back when called the Chicago Soiree...
Oh, wait... did you say strong player? Because my strong player credentials go out the window when you analyze such games by me.
TBH my town game is middling these days.
Was a common practice on this site at one time. There are several strategies for dealing with that. Dead vanilla towns have no vote and know nothing particularly special. And the mafia can play against their minds just as well as they can play against live townies. It's easier for the scums to blend in when everyone starts sheeping the confirmed townies. Just like when they sheep masons or a cop. I've been on scum teams who have defeated a couple dozen towns who have tried such brute methods. When the town unites too much, it's anti-analysis for vote purposes. And when the town leaders no nothing, that's a recipe for an easier sweep, even.
I remember a truly terrible game I played way back when called the Chicago Soiree...
Oh, wait... did you say strong player? Because my strong player credentials go out the window when you analyze such games by me.
TBH my town game is middling these days.
Meh, could be a style thing but I think if the wolves take the risk of not role hunting on purpose to remove a strong player (read: particularly in read quality and effort), the punishment is that they don't kill a pr, they don't need to be punished twice.
I understand why the roles can't talk after death but it just seems a bit volatile in terms of certain things being at odds with player styles.
Plus how do you enjoy dead chat if you have to post in the game thread, that's no fun.
El Barto
10-12-2016, 05:53
We *didn't* get Dead Chat. Only the power roles did.
Well, would have, if Zack had remembered to set up the QT and give players a link to it.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:53
Meh, could be a style thing but I think if the wolves take the risk of not role hunting on purpose to remove a strong player (read: particularly in read quality and effort), the punishment is that they don't kill a pr, they don't need to be punished twice.
I understand why the roles can't talk after death but it just seems a bit volatile in terms of certain things being at odds with player styles.
Well, to be fair, in those games there were no power roles. Maybe a single cop.
That's how you got balance. Also the scum team was smaller, so you'd have more mislynches in play for the scums and more places to hide early, and less chance of any individual townie getting successful with their votes.
Scum won more than half of those games.
How you design the game is how it's balanced. More vanilla townies means more mislynches which is a net positive for the scum team. Low percentage chance of being correct early means tons of mislynches and people to blame for the town's failures.
Know nothing vanilla townies add to the scum's power, unless they, as an individual player, are both good enough at scum hunting and charismatic enough to change minds, and can single-handedly turn the tide of a bad game.
Those setups separate the adults from the kids, because towning is seriously difficult there with so many voices drowning you out, almost all of them dead wrong to boot.
We *didn't* get Dead Chat. Only the power roles did.
Well, would have, if Zack had remembered to set up the QT and give players a link to it.
I opened it a few days ago, saw someone call pizza town and then closed it before my brain exploded.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:55
IIRC the cop was added just to give townies a fighting chance in those games, because we sucked out loud without one.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 05:55
I opened it a few days ago, saw someone call pizza town and then closed it before my brain exploded.
LOL
I want this link plz
Well, to be fair, in those games there were no power roles. Maybe a single cop.
That's how you got balance. Also the scum team was smaller, so you'd have more mislynches in play for the scums and more places to hide early, and less chance of any individual townie getting successful with their votes.
Scum won more than half of those games.
How you design the game is how it's balanced. More vanilla townies means more mislynches which is a net positive for the scum team. Low percentage chance of being correct early means tons of mislynches and people to blame for the town's failures.
Know nothing vanilla townies add to the scum's power, unless they, as an individual player, are both good enough at scum hunting and charismatic enough to change minds, and can single-handedly turn the tide of a bad game.
Those setups separate the adults from the kids, because towning is seriously difficult there with so many voices drowning you out, almost all of them dead wrong to boot.
I think I have to fundamentally disagree with this, even a bad townie will present something (either through rightness or wrongness) that will illuminate things to the live players I would think compared with simply no information from them.
Sure the scum can manipulate it, but I think its probably just as easy to not have to worry about it and focus elsewhere if given the choice.
I think if given the option on night 0, scum would choose VTs cannot talk after death over can every time.
I agree with you wrt having more vanilla townies in the game though, each vanilla town you add, especially where the slot is filled with (new/inexperienced/wrong/obnoxious/whatever anti-villa trait you can think of) players, it only gives the scum a greater chance to kill the players that aren't like that during the night after their mislynches.
El Barto
10-12-2016, 06:00
https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/xnthqUHLKXu
El Barto
10-12-2016, 06:03
*waits for atpg to conjure up an über-answer to all 31 posts in the dead QT.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 06:09
Oh, also one more thing I'm trying to figure out. Why did you keep wanting to NK me? I wasn't doing anything particularly threatening, but my name came up reasonably often in discussions of who to kill. Why not go after someone who appeared to have a power role? The only solid rationale I saw for my death would be that it would confuse people, but I can't see how.
Sorry, missed this post.
You were correctly being read by townies as town, and none of us could find anything to call you scummy about.
This is the main reason why you were so dangerous. It's a gift to be so naturally obviously townie.
This gift will fade after we see you scum a couple of times and do just as well. But I think it was more than just that. I'm very good at twisting everything to look scummy, and you were bulletproof in that regard.
I never had any confidence I could lynch you or even make you look like my partner if I died. It was merely possible, never likely.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 06:14
*waits for atpg to conjure up an über-answer to all 31 posts in the dead QT.
Brain slug made me do it.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 06:19
leaving GH alive here inspired by leaving choxorn alive in the Ciretako game. A live protective role for town that cannot scan is a reason why a super-townie player or a claimed town power role isn't being murdered by scum. Not quite enough for my purposes here, but with Winston's role in play and Riedquat's, I was able to successfully argue why my slot wasn't being killed. The mafia had their hands full argument.
There was also some value in letting people think he's a scum roleblocker (or whatever) while specifically defending him. No matter what happens next, people either lynch him, lynch me and then lynch him, or I might have an extra vote.
It's rare that it would then go, pizza lynches, GH doesn't.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 06:32
Announcing my absence again. Off to school.
:bow: See you in the next game!
I skimmed the mafia thread. My mind is reeling a bit with the amount of not only skill, but also effort, put into the game. Well played.
CrimsonFox
10-12-2016, 09:25
"This is Good Pelican"
"No way this is bad pelican"
"nah pelican isn't a wolf"
---Things dumb people say
CrimsonFox
10-12-2016, 09:27
i really did hate pelican's posting but i probably would not have shot at him.
I was obv looking at Hanky as someone I thought was wolfy
figured pizza would get lynched but i didn't have wolfy feelings for him.
the inactives would have been targets too just because i am so sick of inactives coasting in games/not helping that killing them seemed a good idea.
modkilling john without getting a replacement....boooo...
CrimsonFox
10-12-2016, 09:28
but grats pizza....being THE PERSON up for lynch EVERY DAY and talking your way out is pretty cool
CrimsonFox
10-12-2016, 10:02
now i realize what happened...every day i saw the statement "today's the day we lynch pizza"
then none of novice, mursska, or atheotes fought their own lynch :(
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 11:27
"today's the day we're going to lynch the piiiiiiiizza"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxFIGWm9M6w
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 11:31
Monty posting his way to town reads everywhere was pretty impressive, btw. I haven't seen Monty as scum and WIMming it up before, as he did this game.
CrimsonFox
10-12-2016, 11:36
"today's the day we're going to lynch the piiiiiiiizza"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxFIGWm9M6w
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA
WIM?
then none of novice, mursska, or atheotes fought their own lynch :(
I don't remember not fighting my own lynch. Although much of it happened in my sleep.
By the way, was Monty really being himself?
Murska what in the world were you doing?
Not much. I was busy, as I mentioned a bunch of times.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 12:12
WIM?
Wants It More.
It's a shorthand of referring to the concept that the player that posts hard, tries hard, and is the most townie-looking will win the game, regardless of alignment.
This is unfortunately valid, if you're a player who doesn't make any long analysis posts or if you don't post frequently enough, it's tough to swing people's opinions.
I think players in the game sometimes under-value the contributions of a player that is, in fact, participating, voting, and making cases that seem valid, but isn't in the top half of the posters list. Anything above the minimum is just icing on a cake, dressed up elaborately and covered in sprinkles. But the cake underneath is still delicious.
The trouble with the WIM theory is that sometimes, even a guy like me does not want to post 500 times that game and I will get lynched for it, and I'm probably a townie when that happens. Although I have allowed myself to slack off in some recent wolf games to give myself breathing room too.
And, if you're someone who doesn't have the time to "impress" people with WIM, then it can feel like the game is rigged against you.
A vote for a scumbag is worth as much as any other vote for a scumbag. The post count / word count / WIM of the person who made it shouldn't be a factor, but it is.
Murska, for example, is among the better players on his home forum, and voted scums in this game, but had trouble getting people to follow him.
The only solution off the top of my head is to sometimes give one of those lower posting players a megaphone and a big stick and help them attack their suspects. Decide on your own if their suspect is scummy, or if they're townie, and then give them more support.
If I want to post more and try to clear myself that way, I can clearly do it as scum. So don't let the post count alone sway you. Monty can do it. Plenty of people on other websites can do it. Visor can do it.
Postmore =/= townie.
Montmorency
10-12-2016, 14:22
Good work all.
I fell for atheotes' trap and died for it - fair enough.
I wish I could have had more time to work with Khaan.
Dp101, in my first game ever here I contacted Visorslash and Ishmael privately in a vanilla game because I thought they were townie and tried to organize cooperation in the thread. IIRC, Visor played it off well but he was last surviving non-inactive scum and he used us to win the upcoming endgame. But old habits rarely change. I would have had a field day with Stork's role.
By the way, was Monty really being himself?
Sort of. After I got onto the Pizza train D4, my post-trend diverged heavily. As town, my activity would alternate between lurking and berserking, increasing in volume as the game progressed. I never start heavy like that and try to maintain it. By how much I was posting, a guess would bring you to assume this was a game with private communication, though obviously that wasn't the case.
Also, my self-defense on D2 was a bit whinier than usual, but I attribute that to culture clash with you guys.
Montmorency
10-12-2016, 14:25
The Riedquat thing was hilarious. We had been tracking you, and you even were willing to work with Mafia, in the end, but it seemed nothing short of, "We are Mafia vote this way for God's sake" could have gotten through to you.
So we had to spank. :shrug:
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 17:12
At least I can follow his thought process now. Riedquat, we trusted you and we knew you had scanned two of us. Turns out, you couldn't actually see us properly, lawl. But still! That's a huge risk on our part. You should take a leap of faith and trust me once in a while, what could the harm possibly be, said the guy who killed you in cold blood and buried many villagers in two faced fashion.
Ok, it was a strong point until I finished that sentence.
I think the funnier part was that me and Monty were directly and somewhat openly telling the neutral that we were scum and that we knew he was trying to work with scum, and to unvote a mafioso, repeatedly.
Then, the next day, three villagers trusted me again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEtRoZ5FWNc
Mind control ray. No, you can't have one.
Askthepizzaguy
10-12-2016, 17:26
Dang it, real life, I don't even get an achievement unlocked for THAT?
Scientists are wrong, we're not living in a simulated reality. Otherwise there would have been like a sound effect and a visual cue when that happened.
seireikhaan
10-12-2016, 18:26
Thanks to Zack for organizing and hosting this game.
Thanks to Khaan for being a valued member of the team, I think you played well enough that if it wasn't exactly the town vig you were voting, you'd have gone undetected for a while.
That's nice of you to say, but I didn't do jack other than I guess draw out CF's role with my body. After skipping a phase out of annoyance to mellow myself out, I was naturally totally lost, and didn't have the time or energy to catch up, hence my absence from the qt. Besides, this game had me out of of my element. If it's not capo, 3200 posts is just too much for me and I won't lie, 70% of it sure looked like meaningless fluff to me. Excellent work and praise to my teammates for captaining the boat. :bow:
Edit: And of course, thanks to Zack for the game. Yes, I'm editing a post! BWAHAHAHAHA
Winston Hughes
10-12-2016, 18:47
Thanks for another great game, Zack.
And, as per my comment in the dead QT, congrats to the scum for a magnificent performance. This game contained plenty of hazards for them, but they fairly strolled it home.
leaving GH alive here inspired by leaving choxorn alive in the Ciretako game. A live protective role for town that cannot scan is a reason why a super-townie player or a claimed town power role isn't being murdered by scum. Not quite enough for my purposes here, but with Winston's role in play and Riedquat's, I was able to successfully argue why my slot wasn't being killed. The mafia had their hands full argument.
I fell for it again, too, and kept thinking you were town. Well, that, and I didn't see you and Monty being scum together the way you'd been interacting all game.
I should know better by now that there's no way I can ever be 100% sure if you're town. If I have a truecop result saying "Pizza is 100% Absolutely Townie," I'm still not going to be completely sure.
And gah, Pelican. I caught a huge scum whiff on him around day 3 but I thought he was teammates with Stork and then Stork flipped neutral and I backed off my Pelican read.
Winston Hughes
10-12-2016, 19:17
Postmore =/= townie.
I'd add to this that there's a point - relative to the player roster of any given game - at which higher overall activity levels stop benefiting town and start benefiting scum.
El Barto
10-12-2016, 19:22
The Riedquat thing was hilarious. We had been tracking you, and you even were willing to work with Mafia, in the end, but it seemed nothing short of, "We are Mafia vote this way for God's sake" could have gotten through to you.
So we had to spank. :shrug:
Heh, Bender had to kill most of your opponents and keep one of you alive to win.
And kill me, now that I think of it.
I'm glad he died.
I'd add to this that there's a point - relative to the player roster of any given game - at which higher overall activity levels stop benefiting town and start benefiting scum.
depends on how much wolves are posting and how much townies are posting
the ratio is important
edit: and monty + pizza had about 1/3 of the total posts in the game thread
Oh, rules question, was I categorised as human or robot? Since I believe my character is a cyborg or something. Anyway, time to ISO myself to see where I went wrong and where I was right.
Montmorency
10-13-2016, 00:53
Oh, rules question, was I categorised as human or robot?
Generally, it should count as human, since the jar is merely a life-support device that doesn't fundamentally change your constitution as a human being (unless I'm missing a canon detail).
You could have won by:
1. Listening to me.
then
2. Listening to Winston.
:wiseguy:
I'm well aware that I could have won, but in all honesty your sniping comments every time I dared to even approach working with Pizza put me off trusting you.
Montmorency
10-13-2016, 01:44
Oh, that was in reply to ISOing where you went right. You came closest in endorsing my case on Pizza, and in endorsing Winston's case against me and Pizza.
I don't have much guile. I was sniping only when you came closest to abandoning Pizza, so if that proved counterproductive then it would be exactly in character with my town game. :)
depends on how much wolves are posting and how much townies are posting
the ratio is important
edit: and monty + pizza had about 1/3 of the total posts in the game thread
Also depends on what's being said. Sometimes the town is way more active than the mafia but they're all going after each other and letting the mafia skate by with little pressure.
Winston Hughes
10-13-2016, 07:40
depends on how much wolves are posting and how much townies are posting
the ratio is important
edit: and monty + pizza had about 1/3 of the total posts in the game thread
It's also about how much reading people are able/willing to do. Stuff that looks uber-scummy when you haven't properly followed what went before can look straight townie when you have, and the same is true in reverse.
CrimsonFox
10-13-2016, 11:54
now i realize what happened...every day i saw the statement "today's the day we lynch pizza"
then none of novice, mursska, or atheotes fought their own lynch :(
actually i'm sorry for this post. what's done is done.
i'm just an asshole
i'm the asshole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAvVe92mi5k
actually i'm sorry for this post.
Apology accepted on my part. I really enjoyed playing with you, even though it seemed some of the regulars here thought you were too... unfiltered. :)
Don't worry, you weren't that bad. Sure you were sometimes overly aggressive, but under all that you were still trying to solve the game.
Don't worry, you weren't that bad. Sure you were sometimes overly aggressive, but under all that you were still trying to solve the game.
The biggest thing to remember about Mafia/NOTW is that this is a game based on lying and deception. There will always be players with agendas that are unclear to you. It can be really easy to get frustrated with people not listening to you, being aggressive towards you, twisting your words and using them against you, etc. Generally speaking, they are not doing this because they are being asses or rude. They either have an agenda, or rightly believe that you do too – even if you really don’t.
It’s hard to walk away from the heat of the moment, but I find if I am getting really frustrated that is a big sign that I am on to something and need to dig deeper.
Anyway, fun game while it lasted. Sorry my participation dropped significantly after I was lynched. RL became much more of a distraction and frankly when you are dead it is harder to stay engaged. Scum did a great job here, but I really should have pushed harder post death on Pizza. The engineered CFD on me felt forced and I could have countered it harder. Monty and Pelican though would likely have stayed off my radar for some time.
Winston Hughes
10-13-2016, 21:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZekrhML4frI
El Barto
10-13-2016, 22:46
actually i'm sorry for this post. what's done is done.
i'm just an asshole
i'm the asshole
If you want exclusivity on that, I will fight you for it.
Askthepizzaguy
10-27-2016, 03:15
Next game sign-ups / discussion here.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152208-November-mafia-game-Players-wanted
@ Players from this game.
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