Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[katze]

Players Votes

Montmorency 4 (Raskolnikov, Sleep, Dobby, Cuthillius)
katze 2 (Montmorency, hollowkatt)
Dobby 1 (nebjiamn)
Cape90 1 (katze)

believe this is correct

my two biggest supporters have turned on me

sadge

[Dobby]

oh yeah i guess i should explain the vote on cape

these posts all pinged me back to back to back



cape feeling the need to towncase themselves(?) randomly feels like they know that anyone who isnt them dying today extends the game



:really:



also this post just feels fake af to me :shrug:

kat plsw

cape just thought his readslist from early on was good and it was


the partnery thing was weird yes


that post was like, again related to the first one



considering that vc, do people actually believe in their non-monty votes or are they just like, statements, because if so i might have to play mafia and tell you why monty needs to die



iof anything your cape vote if serious looks like you trying to stall stuff :thonk:

[Dobby]

25423

[Dobby]

25423

NO


https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/641331542047850518/969011258173063208/unknown.png


game over

[Cuthillius]

you two are goofs and i love you for it tbh

[katze]

kat plsw

cape just thought his readslist from early on was good and it was


the partnery thing was weird yes


that post was like, again related to the first one



considering that vc, do people actually believe in their non-monty votes or are they just like, statements, because if so i might have to play mafia and tell you why monty needs to die



iof anything your cape vote if serious looks like you trying to stall stuff :thonk:

im aware the read on you is related to the readlist, that doesn't make me struggle to parse it as real and if it's a meme then i think it's still a pretty awko taco meme and my meme energy reads are 100% this game (read: 1 for 1) therefore this one is also correct

and i just explained why i'm voting cape over monty but im not going to strongarm it because i don't TR monty i just think cape had a series of wolfy posts and ive struggled to find any reason to townread him at all this game whereas ive had reasons prior to townread monty even excluding the ladd vote

shrugze

[katze]

NO


https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/641331542047850518/969011258173063208/unknown.png


game over

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/712968589316980866/969012052897185862/unknown.png'

[katze]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/712968589316980866/969012052897185862/unknown.png

oops

[Cape90]

:really:

also this post just feels fake af to me :shrug:

Are you seriously telling me you don't see it?

The last post was never meant to be a real thought. I thought it could be funny if true so I said it

[Cape90]

iof anything your cape vote if serious looks like you trying to stall stuff :thonk:

What would town!katze's motivation be to stall the game?

[Dobby]

im aware the read on you is related to the readlist, that doesn't make me struggle to parse it as real and if it's a meme then i think it's still a pretty awko taco meme and my meme energy reads are 100% this game (read: 1 for 1) therefore this one is also correct

and i just explained why i'm voting cape over monty but im not going to strongarm it because i don't TR monty i just think cape had a series of wolfy posts and ive struggled to find any reason to townread him at all this game whereas ive had reasons prior to townread monty even excluding the ladd vote

shrugze

you also made a weird read on one of my oneliners where i think the sarcasm shone through tbh


idk it just feels like, im getting stronk the ATTEMPT vibes and i kinda want to just definitely vote you if its not monty just for this :(

[Dobby]

What would town!katze's motivation be to stall the game?

it wouldnt be town katze

[katze]

you also made a weird read on one of my oneliners where i think the sarcasm shone through tbh


idk it just feels like, im getting stronk the ATTEMPT vibes and i kinda want to just definitely vote you if its not monty just for this :(

i've already accepted if this game isn't easy that i'm going to die

[katze]

you also made a weird read on one of my oneliners where i think the sarcasm shone through tbh


idk it just feels like, im getting stronk the ATTEMPT vibes and i kinda want to just definitely vote you if its not monty just for this :(

i mean with that one iirc i didn't think it was sarcastic

with the cape post i acknowledged it could go either way and thought it was an awkward/wolfy joke or just a fake post if not a joke so i called it out either way

p simple

[Dobby]

oops

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/641331542047850518/969014339514290176/unknown.png

[katze]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/641331542047850518/969014339514290176/unknown.png

lmfao i cant top this

[Dobby]

lmfao i cant top this

i know

polidab.jpg

[Dobby]

im aware the read on you is related to the readlist, that doesn't make me struggle to parse it as real and if it's a meme then i think it's still a pretty awko taco meme and my meme energy reads are 100% this game (read: 1 for 1) therefore this one is also correct

and i just explained why i'm voting cape over monty but im not going to strongarm it because i don't TR monty i just think cape had a series of wolfy posts and ive struggled to find any reason to townread him at all this game whereas ive had reasons prior to townread monty even excluding the ladd vote

shrugze

the three quotes? ait



i glossed over it earlier but imo its like

if i look at it from "someone who isn't really a FPSer trying to be fancy" then it falls under "a really bad try but it might just be villagery because of how bad it was"

with that said i don't entirely know what they were expecting to accomplish with it - which isn't a great sign either

if cape was more experienced at FPSing i'd probably be more inclined to call it wolfy but afaik he rly isn't




i think its kinda just in monty/cape, HK is kinda bordering my "never a wolf" tier and cuth... i still don't understand why people are super skeptical of him but i strongly suspect it won't matter anyway



guilty as charged

better vote me out so you can take my spot <3

like im looking through your posts and i dont see why gut over someones style of writing would weigh in heavier than all that *gestures wildly*



do you think cape has had this tonal thing, "Fake" posts since earlier in the game or something that just happened? that's part of my issue with this

[hollowkatt]

i guess game wouldve looked pretty different if csargo didnt kill dolby. i dont think everyone wouldve done that and then d2/d3 wouldve been a lot harder.

yeah, not having a dolby flip makes the game much harder

[hollowkatt]

everyone -> anyone tbh

tbh I probs do

[Cape90]

Vote: Montmorency

I hope this is just correct

[hollowkatt]

my two biggest supporters have turned on me

sadge

vote: monte

Iluffu

[hollowkatt]

alright here's where I'm at, final edition:

monte has a lot of really bad associatives, should be chopped just because

katze is katze and has been much more lulz today than previous days and kinda it makes me remember a hydra game, if monte doesn't flip wolf katze should go

cape has both good and bad posts, more good than bad tbh

cuth... I can squint and see cuth as a wolf but probably he needs to not die before katze does.

everyone else I expect to be the NK

[Cuthillius]

alright here's where I'm at, final edition:

monte has a lot of really bad associatives, should be chopped just because

katze is katze and has been much more lulz today than previous days and kinda it makes me remember a hydra game, if monte doesn't flip wolf katze should go

cape has both good and bad posts, more good than bad tbh

cuth... I can squint and see cuth as a wolf but probably he needs to not die before katze does.

everyone else I expect to be the NK

squinting only helps when you have worse eyesight than you evidently do i think

[katze]

anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.


Alive: (9/17)
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. i mean the lazy raeson is "lol if they're w/w with monstr" but also like, i still think they're way townier than the time i've seen them wolf (yes the situations are different, i still think the difference is quite massive), they're pretty unassociated with ladd as well... it's still lazy but i'm still confident it's correct

scond clear would still be benneh - this one is a lot less concrete in terms of "well they're obviously not w/w with the flipped wolves" - although i do think ladd treated benneh/zack p much identically and given zack flipped V he was prob just trying to pocket them both - i think benneh is just really villagery this game lmao. i was a bit paranoid towards EoD1 cause it felt like we were a bit too on the same page at times so when he just stoppd posting and kinda just sheeped me i thought it might just be deliberate, but ehhh. i've talked myself out of that and think from my experience with him he's kinda just a villager. yes this is mostly turbo/mash experience, shut up. newcomb flipping V only really reinforces this because in my experience it's way fucking harder to mindmeld with a villager about another villager than a villager about a wolf. also newcomb felt really strongly about it too :wowee:

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it



so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like

i thought monty was villagery late D1. i recognize the reasons as not being great. but they existed. i recognize that the dead villagers have been significantly more anti-monty than they have been anti-cape. they haven't really been favorable towards either, tho

...i mean tbh if majority was enabled id have exactly zero problem killing either one first and then the other if it that doesn't end it but i want this game to be over or for me to die so i can do what i truly want to do and stop actually putting effort into this game. because i think it's solved. i don't think more effort is necessary. but i feel obligated to exist in thread because i agreed to play it, so here i am.

i'm not particularly happy with my play this game, and me slam dunking on the last wolf wouldn't change that either, so. i'd feel worse off if i were misclearing a wolf, i don't think i'd feel worse off if i got MLed because i frankly deserve it and have deservd it in multiple of my past towngames anyway

so... yeah. i deviated a lot from why i originally wrote this post but i'm pretty sure the intent is in there somewhere and if not then joycat

[Dobby]

alright here's where I'm at, final edition:

monte has a lot of really bad associatives, should be chopped just because

katze is katze and has been much more lulz today than previous days and kinda it makes me remember a hydra game, if monte doesn't flip wolf katze should go

cape has both good and bad posts, more good than bad tbh

cuth... I can squint and see cuth as a wolf but probably he needs to not die before katze does.

everyone else I expect to be the NK

cuth is always in f3 and theres nothing any of us can do about that

[hollowkatt]

squinting only helps when you have worse eyesight than you evidently do i think

to be fair my eyesight is pretty bad. not coke bottle bad but definitely "my contacts fell out while I was driving and I'm glad nobody died while I was getting off of the road" bad

[hollowkatt]

cuth is always in f3 and theres nothing any of us can do about that

watch cuth be the NK

[katze]

the three quotes? ait








like im looking through your posts and i dont see why gut over someones style of writing would weigh in heavier than all that *gestures wildly*



do you think cape has had this tonal thing, "Fake" posts since earlier in the game or something that just happened? that's part of my issue with this

ive struggled to find reasons to townread cape basically all game but have been giving him extra time because i think i have more exp with cape than anyone else here

but nothing has done it for me, and his posting today has honestly felt more half assed than any other phase imo


alright here's where I'm at, final edition:

monte has a lot of really bad associatives, should be chopped just because

katze is katze and has been much more lulz today than previous days and kinda it makes me remember a hydra game, if monte doesn't flip wolf katze should go

cape has both good and bad posts, more good than bad tbh

cuth... I can squint and see cuth as a wolf but probably he needs to not die before katze does.

everyone else I expect to be the NK

im more lulz today because i think the game is solved already so i'd rather have a bit of fun in thread rather than stress out to come to the same conclusions i've already had?

like i get the read but i was basically lolcatting all of that hydra game not just d2

[katze]

cuth is always in f3 and theres nothing any of us can do about that

oh no

not cuth in f3

[hollowkatt]

katze is back to lock town again soz for concerning you

[Dobby]

anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.


Alive: (9/17)
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. i mean the lazy raeson is "lol if they're w/w with monstr" but also like, i still think they're way townier than the time i've seen them wolf (yes the situations are different, i still think the difference is quite massive), they're pretty unassociated with ladd as well... it's still lazy but i'm still confident it's correct

scond clear would still be benneh - this one is a lot less concrete in terms of "well they're obviously not w/w with the flipped wolves" - although i do think ladd treated benneh/zack p much identically and given zack flipped V he was prob just trying to pocket them both - i think benneh is just really villagery this game lmao. i was a bit paranoid towards EoD1 cause it felt like we were a bit too on the same page at times so when he just stoppd posting and kinda just sheeped me i thought it might just be deliberate, but ehhh. i've talked myself out of that and think from my experience with him he's kinda just a villager. yes this is mostly turbo/mash experience, shut up. newcomb flipping V only really reinforces this because in my experience it's way fucking harder to mindmeld with a villager about another villager than a villager about a wolf. also newcomb felt really strongly about it too :wowee:

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it



so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like

i thought monty was villagery late D1. i recognize the reasons as not being great. but they existed. i recognize that the dead villagers have been significantly more anti-monty than they have been anti-cape. they haven't really been favorable towards either, tho

...i mean tbh if majority was enabled id have exactly zero problem killing either one first and then the other if it that doesn't end it but i want this game to be over or for me to die so i can do what i truly want to do and stop actually putting effort into this game. because i think it's solved. i don't think more effort is necessary. but i feel obligated to exist in thread because i agreed to play it, so here i am.

i'm not particularly happy with my play this game, and me slam dunking on the last wolf wouldn't change that either, so. i'd feel worse off if i were misclearing a wolf, i don't think i'd feel worse off if i got MLed because i frankly deserve it and have deservd it in multiple of my past towngames anyway

so... yeah. i deviated a lot from why i originally wrote this post but i'm pretty sure the intent is in there somewhere and if not then joycat

having me in what i assume is some kind of poe is pretty (bbefore you say im not, im still nr3 there).... interesting

i was about to towncase myself so i can still think im a realistic nk if it doesnt end tonight but lol

[Dobby]

ive struggled to find reasons to townread cape basically all game but have been giving him extra time because i think i have more exp with cape than anyone else here

but nothing has done it for me, and his posting today has honestly felt more half assed than any other phase imo



im more lulz today because i think the game is solved already so i'd rather have a bit of fun in thread rather than stress out to come to the same conclusions i've already had?

like i get the read but i was basically lolcatting all of that hydra game not just d2

i feel like he just started playing today and definitely more efforty than previous days :P

[Cape90]

POE: Mont/Rask

I think you can throw me in there and still be fine? then it's GG

I'm calling the shot

[Dobby]

katze is back to lock town again soz for concerning you

nope not happening

kat is wIdEnInG tHe PoE

[Dobby]

POE: Mont/Rask

I think you can throw me in there and still be fine? then it's GG

I'm calling the shot

rask?

i just defended you sir


no kat, but rask on that


i should see if it aligns with what youve written but meh

[hollowkatt]

ive struggled to find reasons to townread cape basically all game but have been giving him extra time because i think i have more exp with cape than anyone else here

but nothing has done it for me, and his posting today has honestly felt more half assed than any other phase imo



im more lulz today because i think the game is solved already so i'd rather have a bit of fun in thread rather than stress out to come to the same conclusions i've already had?

like i get the read but i was basically lolcatting all of that hydra game not just d2

yeah, yeah you were.

I want to write something cool and spicy about how and why I voted you in some grandiose play to out the last wolf. Instead it was "everyone is voting monte and I want to be contrarian". Then visor posted the VC with monte also voting you and I felt icky

[Cape90]

8-1

6-1

4-1

2-1

I think this is correct math

[hollowkatt]

i feel like he just started playing today and definitely more efforty than previous days :P

I REMEMBER WHY CAPE
the all caps post when ender blew up and cape said he wanted that closer to eod. That felt squidgy to me on account of the only thing delaying the blowing up would do is allow town to get on the wrong path whereas ender blowing up early, like he did, gives us the third wolf worth of content to review.

[hollowkatt]

POE: Mont/Rask

I think you can throw me in there and still be fine? then it's GG

I'm calling the shot

u wot? rask is hard town mate

[katze]

katze is back to lock town again soz for concerning you

aret aret


having me in what i assume is some kind of poe is pretty (bbefore you say im not, im still nr3 there).... interesting

i was about to towncase myself so i can still think im a realistic nk if it doesnt end tonight but lol

i don't really think you're mafia i just personally have more concrete reasons to townread 6 people over you and probably would have/literally wanted you dead d2/early d3 if not for sunbaes shield

if i were going off of just last day phase and this one you'd probably be in the top 5 over... cuth or sleep?

idk. my point is more "i think it's in the bottom 2" than anything else and if it's not i'd be more willing to Put In Effort ig


i feel like he just started playing today and definitely more efforty than previous days :P

and it's not good


POE: Mont/Rask

I think you can throw me in there and still be fine? then it's GG

I'm calling the shot

wat

why rask that is literally my most confident clear

[Cape90]

rask?

i just defended you sir


no kat, but rask on that


i should see if it aligns with what youve written but meh

the legacy looked towny from katze alright :stupid:

Katze was also being shielded for meta reasons by... probably town

[hollowkatt]

nope not happening

kat is wIdEnInG tHe PoE

katze is semi-consistent with their world view and previous clears/reads. While I think you're obvs town it's personal because of the interactions/engagement we had together when we were both casing/pushing each other.

[Cape90]

I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town

But so does like

everyone that isn't Mont :laugh4:

i mean even Mont has some good posts

[katze]

I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town

But so does like

everyone that isn't Mont :laugh4:

i mean even Mont has some good posts

iso monstrman

sparkleshrug

[Cuthillius]

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 stillt

i mean there i was very wrong

here i was responsible for wolf dying where one probably would never have otherwise

i felt very good about it n1 lol

d2 i was just wiped and had a hard time putting words together on end

i might be deflated about ender if it wasn't for the fact that the game just seems more or less over

and not just because of like wolf and town reads specifically but also the worlds that seem at all possible (easy) just fit with the vibe of wolfteam from how things have been

but yes d3 onwards maybe fair in terms of having done some things i feel ok about and not being in a position where i'm under enough pressure to have that motivate me and feeling like it's not worth my limited resources atm

[hollowkatt]

I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town

But so does like

everyone that isn't Mont :laugh4:

i mean even Mont has some good posts

VaSt ToNaL gAp

that and literally years of experience as w/w, w/t of both flavors, and t/t

then finally his thread positioning, how he literally does not seem to care or waiver as wolves go down, his wim and tone are consistent with "we are winning this game".

[Cuthillius]

POE: Mont/Rask

I think you can throw me in there and still be fine? then it's GG

I'm calling the shot

stop widening the pr it was fine the first time you said it (rask being v aside)

[hollowkatt]

I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town

But so does like

everyone that isn't Mont :laugh4:

i mean even Mont has some good posts

also also no to your last line

[hollowkatt]

it's just cape isn't it

[Cuthillius]

VaSt ToNaL gAp

i adore that this has just taken on such a vibrant life of its own

[Dobby]

I REMEMBER WHY CAPE
the all caps post when ender blew up and cape said he wanted that closer to eod. That felt squidgy to me on account of the only thing delaying the blowing up would do is allow town to get on the wrong path whereas ender blowing up early, like he did, gives us the third wolf worth of content to review.

hm yes if that makes sense its too big a thought for my brain

[Cuthillius]

can't wait to dunk on you in f3 again gira

[katze]

it's just cape isn't it

they booed me because i was right

[Dobby]

cuth is always in f3 and theres nothing any of us can do about that

only thing i care abotu rn is cuth reacting to this



rest of it, i am going to pretend last 20 posts didnt happen because what the fuck

[Cape90]

oh

rask is just town then

POE is just too easy this game

[Cape90]

stop widening the pr it was fine the first time you said it (rask being v aside)

what is PR?

[katze]

can't wait to dunk on you in f3 again gira

i hope one of you is a wolf so they bring the other to F3

[Dobby]

i kinda want benneh to participate a bit more actively in case monty is the wrong yoink (also where has monty been lol) because it feels like hes going to be the night yoink


i did start a list yesterday but then monty happened so i stopped caring about it but to poke it a little back to life before i bury it again until needed


benneh, rask - never touch

hk, sleep, cuth - dont fucking touch


i dont see a world where its not just in monty, cape and kat.

--

7 alive after today and nk

5 alive after tomorrow and nk

f3



with my perfect maffs i can conclude that if its not in monty, cape, katze then we have f3

cuth will be in it, i might be but i hope my ender stuff and people who can read me correctly is enough to land me a nk tonight or tomorrow because i deserve it (also i am top poster and this isnt even my final form)


probably a f3 with cuth, hk +1 if we miss everytime

[Dobby]

what is PR?

idk if nsfw (idk if it even is) jokes are allowed here butt

at work it means per rectum

[Dobby]

with how newcomb got yoinked the other day i wouldnt be surprised if cape was voted out today and im slightly bervous about that

[katze]

vote: to enable majority

[katze]

eh

vote: monty


i still kinda think it's cape over this but maybe i'm just wrong again tbh

[Dobby]

eh

vote: monty


i still kinda think it's cape over this but maybe i'm just wrong again tbh

love u if tru


btw an hour ago or something i thought day ended today but aparently we have 24 more hoursof waiting

give maj plaes

[katze]

love u if tru


btw an hour ago or something i thought day ended today but aparently we have 24 more hoursof waiting

give maj plaes

will u love me if its cape? :pleading_face:

[Dobby]

will u love me if its cape? :pleading_face:

ill lve you even if its you ~:grouphug:

[katze]

ill lve you even if its you ~:grouphug:

now i wish it was :sweetheart:

[hollowkatt]

i adore that this has just taken on such a vibrant life of its own

fyi I'm thanking this in post

[hollowkatt]

i hope one of you is a wolf so they bring the other to F3

my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore

[Cuthillius]

cuth is always in f3 and theres nothing any of us can do about that

off the top of my head i can't really remember being in f3 in a long game as v in a meaningful capacity in a long time

i tried to in alpacas but it didn't work

[Cuthillius]

idk if nsfw (idk if it even is) jokes are allowed here butt

at work it means per rectum

lmfao

(i mistyped poe)

[katze]

my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore

if i were in that f3 i'd probably cry trying to solve it

[Dobby]

my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore

im slightly insulted

[hollowkatt]

if i were in that f3 i'd probably cry trying to solve it

But imagine the shitposting opportunities. Also yes, I would too


im slightly insulted

Please don't be! While I believe in my heart of hearts you can shitpost with the best of them you're too pure and kind. Plus I'd just snap vote whomever else was there and that's no fun.

[Sleep]

can't wait to dunk on you in f3 again gira

if i'm there again i'm snap voting you

though really it's my fault for not outing my LOCK MAFIA "sort these players from v to w" tell

[Dobby]

But imagine the shitposting opportunities. Also yes, I would too



Please don't be! While I believe in my heart of hearts you can shitpost with the best of them you're too pure and kind. Plus I'd just snap vote whomever else was there and that's no fun.

im not kind this is the first game i havent tilted in (yet) in... months or years

[Sleep]

also jeez yall blew this thread up

[Montmorency]

did Dobby ever explain why he reacted to dolby dying twice 5 hours apart like that?

idk what happened but I'm on my phone and somehow the above got posted to my blog instead of the thread

The question was answered yesterday, bit I'm just sad zack erased Double A's claim to history. :teardrop:


i dont understand what approximately any of this means

i was the top poster d1 what do you mean "without much thread presence"

During EOD you were, like Ender, present but in the background noncomittally.


what if:

I guess the big question of the day is this: was there a wolf on Ladd and given their role and given the way the wagon flashed out of nowhere I'm inclined to think wolves were trying to save Ladd more so than gain credit from being on his wagon. Obvs they could not be flashy about saving him b/c it would out them.

I've said before, the crucial element of EOD1 was that only 1-2 Mafia were active, and Ender we now know never moved his vote off Newcomb throughout EOD. Isn't it likely that Mafia simply were not at all in control of the wagons and more or less passively hoped to nudge them to their benefit?


he was drawing a reasonable amount of heat for being inactive most of the day, especially from zack

i also felt like he tried to put momentum on newcomb/rask start of day 2 which is certainly not doing nothing. possible to be town who drew the wrong conclusions, i certainly did, but this desnt really fit my view

(also i had a very dumb shower thought this morning)

I voted Neb and gave Rask a daypass in my first post of D2.

I have few posts how are they so easy to misread!!!


Hey i was going to do this but now someone else did pog

Looking at those vc's I think yes Rask is never wolf, cuth with the first vote on ladd during that eod (other that winston's that i dont count here) to make him a legit wagon when people sussed him already looks good for him.

If a wolf places a vote on ladd here it's - let's look at it.

Rask's vote was within seconds from Monty's vote and both were at :00. Rask's vote can pretty certainly be seen as self-pres. He could've placed a vote that looked good for the mafia sorcerer, but didn't, he voted him.

Those two votes took ladd from 2 votes to 4 votes, and suddenly he went from being one of many wagons, to top one.

Let me stop you right there. In the second before I and Rask simulvoted ladd, Sleep had wagoned and unwagoned ladd: Newcomb > ladd > Newcomb. Right before that, nebbie voted Rask and katze voted Newcomb. So far all either I, and perhaps Rask, knew of the threadstate we were voting to tie ladd 3-3 (ladd-Rask), put ladd past the protowagons with 3, or even tie 3-3-3 (ladd-NC-Rask).


So i just ctrl f:ed "mont" in the first dayphase to see if he had written anything, or if anyone else had mentioned him

These sequences have been covered ig like 10 times already, yet very few people bring up monster's FOS on me for voting him, and no one has ever quoted this:



I read a couple of monty games on this forums and he seems to have no problems posting as a wolf. can the orgers elaborate on why they think he is a wolf from his 3 posts?


you going after monty was spooky, then I saw the other orgers thought he was a wolf too so maybe I was missing some meta but from a quick skim of 2 of his games he seems like a perfectly competent wolf so i dont realy see whats up


Which games though.


just for the record, this isn't an ironclad meta-read or anything, it's partly to see how he reacts / light a fire under his bum. (if ladd is a wolf he may have tmi'd monty town in #554 )

more generally, v possible we are v/v and having a hard time communicating with each other

also this is somewhat tangential but i think newcomb is probably Just A Villager here

So bomb ladd.

Seriously, someone assemble all my mentions or interactions of flipped mafiosi, add it up.

@Cuthilius

Remember the failure of Mass Effect (we Tdomed to KO Town).



I mean, it mostly looks bad for ladd (lol), but if i turn it around i think yes it can be to put a shield up on a townie that a lot of people push
but it could definitely also be about a teammate that he shields and has a read that he wants cred for when they get ml'ed

As an aside, isn't it a contradiction for ladd to shield a teammate for ML credit later? If I'm his teammate then I wouldn't be an ML by definition.


AND MONTY TRIED TO UNVOTE LADD AT :01 TO MAKE HIM NOT TOP WAGON!!

so yes, monty definitely doesn't get cred for it.


only sus

monty you get sus.

You act like it's a bad thing to unvote there.


its mostly because benneh, rask and sleep are in my nope never voting tier and just below that are hk and cuth so i wouldnt call it skeptical but if not in you cape monty then yes thats the next tier (im too dumb to count how many yoinks we have left)

Day 3-4-5-6
NK 3-4-5

There are 9 players left. If Cuth and Rask are town they should be NKed. I said before I would expect the F3 to be something like neb-dob-cape.


Montmorency why did you try to unvote Ladd

Explained multiple times. I'll ask you to ISO.


he explained it sod2

wagonomics lol

And testing you and Winston, specifically.

But speaking of wagonomics, HK of all people should get what was doing. Think of, like, every game we've ever played together (which admittedly might only be a couple).


not really a case just some gut feelings about how ender interacted with cuth about his wolf reads

i'm a bit too lazy to bother with it today with monty seeming like they're always going over so i'm trying to save face in case he flips wolf

You think Ender was interacting with ladd and Cuth in the same exact conflictual distancing style?


. . .

I'll repeat again that katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, at the exact same time (EOD-2), when the formation was still broken into many protowagons. Both of them thought they were pushing someone into the lead. This is important context for evaluating wagons.

[Dobby]

The question was answered yesterday, bit I'm just sad zack erased Double A's claim to history. :teardrop:



During EOD you were, like Ender, present but in the background noncomittally.



I've said before, the crucial element of EOD1 was that only 1-2 Mafia were active, and Ender we now know never moved his vote off Newcomb throughout EOD. Isn't it likely that Mafia simply were not at all in control of the wagons and more or less passively hoped to nudge them to their benefit?



I voted Neb and gave Rask a daypass in my first post of D2.

I have few posts how are they so easy to misread!!!



Let me stop you right there. In the second before I and Rask simulvoted ladd, Sleep had wagoned and unwagoned ladd: Newcomb > ladd > Newcomb. Right before that, nebbie voted Rask and katze voted Newcomb. So far all either I, and perhaps Rask, knew of the threadstate we were voting to tie ladd 3-3 (ladd-Rask), put ladd past the protowagons with 3, or even tie 3-3-3 (ladd-NC-Rask).



These sequences have been covered ig like 10 times already, yet very few people bring up monster's FOS on me for voting him, and no one has ever quoted this:



Seriously, someone assemble all my mentions or interactions of flipped mafiosi, add it up.

@Cuthilius

Remember the failure of Mass Effect (we Tdomed to KO Town).




As an aside, isn't it a contradiction for ladd to shield a teammate for ML credit later? If I'm his teammate then I wouldn't be an ML by definition.



You act like it's a bad thing to unvote there.



Day 3-4-5-6
NK 3-4-5

There are 9 players left. If Cuth and Rask are town they should be NKed. I said before I would expect the F3 to be something like neb-dob-cape.



Explained multiple times. I'll ask you to ISO.



And testing you and Winston, specifically.

But speaking of wagonomics, HK of all people should get what was doing. Think of, like, every game we've ever played together (which admittedly might only be a couple).



You think Ender was interacting with ladd and Cuth in the same exact conflictual distancing style?



I'll repeat again that katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, at the exact same time (EOD-2), when the formation was still broken into many protowagons. Both of them thought they were pushing someone into the lead. This is important context for evaluating wagons.

i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir

also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P


also i kinda looked at your interactions with flipped wolves and posted it (or the relevant stuff from it) i know you addressed ender a lot but he forgot to answer all of it or something if so :P

[Sleep]

off the top of my head i can't really remember being in f3 in a long game as v in a meaningful capacity in a long time

i tried to in alpacas but it didn't work

its horrible ive done it multiple times in the past year and i lost all but one and the one with you was somehow the least enervating (voting wrong sucks way more than being hammered)

[Cuthillius]

if i'm there again i'm snap voting you

though really it's my fault for not outing my LOCK MAFIA "sort these players from v to w" tell

ah yes the lock i do it in literally every game except this one because i can't be arsed to delete the numbers from in front of people's names in the playerlist

[Dobby]

i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir

also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P


also i kinda looked at your interactions with flipped wolves and posted it (or the relevant stuff from it) i know you addressed ender a lot but he forgot to answer all of it or something if so :P

oh im tired it said respectively

also talk about the unvote

[Cuthillius]

monty what was your impression of where the wagons were when you unvoted? had you been planning to unvote when you voted initially?

[Montmorency]

Cuthillius

Remember the failure of Mass Effect? D4 we Tdome, I'm ousted, you're NKed, Visor MLed LYLO. Check yourself.


not solely no

i think winston was unquestionably super towny (despite being tunneled on me :stare: ) and had some super good posts and read lists that, uh lemme find it i saw a few earlier today

Winston's power level is even higher than Zack's, he routinely gets killed early as town.


holy shit reading through this winston really had it out for me :(

die

:smash:


​vote: dobby

:smash:


i dont see anything in winstons iso that would make me think hes sorcerer, and wolves not going for sorc is ballsy unless they think the wolves were well hidden and hoped for town on town action


Why go after sorc? Sorc is more likely to get town killed than scum, and is less efficient than a plain vig. Moreover, waiting until D2 allows for rolefishing.


i also dont understand why winston stopped pushing me because he hated everything about everything i wrote and suddenyl was on ladd eod :P

WAGONOMICS


but like

the unvote from Monty...

It's so strange that when I did this (D1 unvote killing scum) as town, which I surely always am, I was almost consensus cleared for it.


im aware the read on you is related to the readlist, that doesn't make me struggle to parse it as real and if it's a meme then i think it's still a pretty awko taco meme and my meme energy reads are 100% this game (read: 1 for 1) therefore this one is also correct

and i just explained why i'm voting cape over monty but im not going to strongarm it because i don't TR monty i just think cape had a series of wolfy posts and ive struggled to find any reason to townread him at all this game whereas ive had reasons prior to townread monty even excluding the ladd vote

shrugze

Setting up D4.


alright here's where I'm at, final edition:

monte has a lot of really good associatives, should be chopped just because


The only thing against me is the Newcomb flub, which while bad does not change the reality of prior interactions with known scum.


anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.


So the immediate point about this list is that from a scum-Katze POV:

D3: Mont
D4: Cape
D5: Cuth
D6: Dobby

is pretty much necessary. Although if neither katze nor none of those options are scum themselves then any scum would have to follow the same path, substituting katze for Cuth.

What I'm saying is that the POE is kind of rigid from almost any theory of the game.

[Sleep]

monty comes into thread and posts a semi jokey vote on monstr, is it just me or does it look like w/w action? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828708&viewfull=1#post2053828708)

I agree this is not a great look especially given the consistent pattern of distancing day 1 among the flipped scum. very soft touch.

[Sleep]

ah yes the lock i do it in literally every game except this one because i can't be arsed to delete the numbers from in front of people's names in the playerlist

legit i couldnt find a single town game u did it in in my sample lmao

[Cuthillius]

legit i couldnt find a single town game u did it in in my sample lmao

that's hilarious but also i just clicked three town games from before we played for each (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/28314-Alpacas-Mentor-Fun-Game%21?p=4357624#post4357624) of (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/27346-Vattu-Mafia?p=4206487#post4206487) these (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/16894-Season-5-Game-4-Spelunky-Mafia-Championship?p=2344973#post2344973) games:

here's me talking about it in another game (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/29641-Rocks-Fall-and-Someone-Dies-an-Invitational?p=4643934#post4643934)

and also there were several offsite

i feel like this might be a sample size issue lmao

[Sleep]

^If Cuth mafia, then all 5 names listed here are town so this worldbuilding doesn't look super wolfy fmpov

allow me to tell you about the hours of meta research i did on cuth's scumgame now that i've outed

[Cuthillius]

*i clicked 3 and 2/3 had it and i clicked around a bit more after

didn't actually play that many games on mu in general but

[Montmorency]

i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir


"katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, "

y no1 red my poasts


also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P

A very interesting opinion.


monty what was your impression of where the wagons were when you unvoted? had you been planning to unvote when you voted initially?

I think I posted about this in one of my two posts of minutes ago, but...

I thought I was voting to tie ladd 3-3-3. I saw right at the bell ladd was in the lead with Rask's vote and Sleep's switch back to NC.


I agree this is not a great look especially given the consistent pattern of distancing day 1 among the flipped scum. very soft touch.

How were scum interacting w/ each other vs. w/ flipped townies vs. w/ me.

Think about it.



What can I say, Zack and Sunbae had a great game. Cuth or katze are good candidates for final scum. But Cuth might be spewed town by Ender spending most of EOD whining that Cuth wouldn't sheep his case on NC even though Cuth TLed him, unless you think that's part of the same sort of theater as Ender-ladd. Anyone remember that? Just reread EOD1.


So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?


for the love of all that is good in the world please just don't.


if you're voted out today is your legacy "kill newcomb with fire" or "stop ignoring newcomb and talk about him more" because i feel like im the loudest anti-newcomb voice and if i died today i'd absolutely not lean the former


I don't mind this if Newcomb is off the table.

I do not feel like their reads feel entirely legit. Especially the way they've treated me.


I right now feel the former.

Might be that I read their reaction to the case I posted where they "forgot" who posted it.

And idk I just viscerally want the flip and the red blood of a wolf on my hands to prove myself right now.


Also like, Csargo's weird flip flop on me to a townread actually feels more legit than Cuth's progression.

What I think happened now - my theory for EOD1 - is that 2 scum were AFK, Ender was present almost flailing with his vote parked on Newcomb throughout, and katze was in there without much thread presence finally dropping a vote onto Newcomb 1 minute out.

It could be Sleep or Dobby too playing a similar role with votes on NC and Rask respectively, but I doubt it, and that's up for others to sort since this game looks more like my Mass Effect a year ago without the super-deep mafia.

Vote: Katze

She has too been posting like SOD3 threw her for a loop.

My final answer is katze; I shan't afford another. ggwp

Unfortunately I can't go beyond myself without breaking the game.

Reposting.

[Sleep]

that's hilarious but also i just clicked three town games from before we played for each (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/28314-Alpacas-Mentor-Fun-Game%21?p=4357624#post4357624) of (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/27346-Vattu-Mafia?p=4206487#post4206487) these (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/16894-Season-5-Game-4-Spelunky-Mafia-Championship?p=2344973#post2344973) games:

here's me talking about it in another game (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/29641-Rocks-Fall-and-Someone-Dies-an-Invitational?p=4643934#post4643934)

and also there were several offsite

i feel like this might be a sample size issue lmao

yeah it was 100% just bad sampling because i cba to dig thru all the turbos to find the long games

[Cuthillius]

so monty to be clear

you thought you were tying it both when you initially voted and when you unvoted then?

were you planning to unvote at all before it happened?

[Cuthillius]

yeah it was 100% just bad sampling because i cba to dig thru all the turbos to find the long games

rip

i'm still

i should so not have won that game

[Montmorency]

so monty to be clear

you thought you were tying it both when you initially voted and when you unvoted then?

were you planning to unvote at all before it happened?

If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.

[Sleep]

you two are goofs and i love you for it tbh

i have to say this catchup has been unexpectedly hilarious and delightful

[Sleep]

rip

i'm still

i should so not have won that game

yeah eh i mean a sub in f3, what can you do? just super messed up the gamestate

i recovered like 2 days later because i got to replace into a game, draw a mafia slot, and hammer town!nacho

[Cuthillius]

If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.

sleep voted ladd at least 20 seconds before you voted though and switched right before you posted

did you see his post before you voted or did you think you were the fourth vote lol

[Cuthillius]

yeah eh i mean a sub in f3, what can you do? just super messed up the gamestate

i recovered like 2 days later because i got to replace into a game, draw a mafia slot, and hammer town!nacho

oh brilliant i'm glad to hear

i was a wreck afterwards

[Cuthillius]

it's a cute tiger

[hollowkatt]

im not kind this is the first game i havent tilted in (yet) in... months or years

honestly same lol

[hollowkatt]

If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.

I don't think we've played enough games for me to have an understanding of what you'd do from a meta perspective.

That being said, ties are resolved at Random, which seems less than good when you're trying to understand who wanted which wagons and how the run up to EOD(X) goes. I wouldn't play for purposeful random on any day unless there was something that personally benefited me to do so, so when you say you wanted to set the tie and you had cold feet about being on the wrong wagon I want to believe you, I just can't put myself into that kind of mindset.

I think I may believe you more if you'd cast another vote instead of just trying to unvote as at least you'd be on the record of wanting somebody dead whereas if your unvote had been successful probably we're still having this conversation, only instead of saying "unvote post chop is sus" it's "unvote and not taking a position when there are multiple options to choose from is sus"

[Montmorency]

sleep voted ladd at least 20 seconds before you voted though and switched right before you posted

did you see his post before you voted or did you think you were the fourth vote lol

Why specifically 20 seconds? I recall reacting to the flurry of voting immediately following this tally. I made my decision to tie-vote and went to upload the reaction image.


I don't think we've played enough games for me to have an understanding of what you'd do from a meta perspective.

That being said, ties are resolved at Random, which seems less than good when you're trying to understand who wanted which wagons and how the run up to EOD(X) goes. I wouldn't play for purposeful random on any day unless there was something that personally benefited me to do so, so when you say you wanted to set the tie and you had cold feet about being on the wrong wagon I want to believe you, I just can't put myself into that kind of mindset.

I think I may believe you more if you'd cast another vote instead of just trying to unvote as at least you'd be on the record of wanting somebody dead whereas if your unvote had been successful probably we're still having this conversation, only instead of saying "unvote post chop is sus" it's "unvote and not taking a position when there are multiple options to choose from is sus"

The point being is that I don't necessarily want to provide the decisive vote onto anyone if I wind up wrong (remember this is information voting from my end; it's different when pursuing a hard case.)

It's not a strategy, just psychology.



Players Votes

Newcomb 2 (Enderwiggin, Sleep)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
hollowkatt 2 (Dobby, Csargo)
Raskolnikov 2 (Monstrdude, Montmorency)
ladd 2 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Cuthillius 1 (Raskolnikov)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)

1118

EOD-2

Rask > Sunbae
Neb > Rask (3)
katze > NC (3)

If katze was scum, she was voting to put NC in the lead past Csargo, HK, Sleep, Rask, and ladd. (Neb voted simultaneously onto Rask, so in theory we could say the same about his vote.)

Sleep > ladd (3)
dobby > Rask (4)
Sleep > NC (3)

Sleep as scum would be reacting very cannily to the immediate VC here. Either way, he was probably following the VC to the dot.

Mont > ladd (3)
Rask > ladd (4)

Simultaneous.

Out of all these people katze has the worst associatives. Only one can be scum.

There is my theory. Take it today or take it tomorrow.

[Sleep]

it's a cute tiger

ty i was searching through the default avatars and it reminded me of a friends avatar



anyway for actual game related business:

potentially dumb read alert: i kind of feel like cape has almost been too wrong to be mafia, and...i don't really get what the mafia were doing if they ere, like, distancing from each other day 1 but HARD SHIELDING cape, because, like, no offense but he has the last forum mafia experience of anyone here? don't get me wrong, he's a sharp kid, no slouch at all, but like, do they realistically expect him to endgame in this playerlist? probably not, so like, are they really going to spend day 1 trying to powerwolf for him? kinda doubt it, feels in my gut like bog standard white knighting now (i am pretty sure i have scumread cape in every single non-turbo game i have played with him. i was right once! but honestly he was worse that game than he's been here and his WIM sank like a stone despite the fact that his team was winning)

[Cuthillius]

Why specifically 20 seconds? I recall reacting to the flurry of voting immediately following this tally. I made my decision to tie-vote and went to upload the reaction image.

ok that's

weird

but alright

20 seconds because there's the post cooldown and he voted and then voted someone else within that window before you posted

[Cuthillius]

ty i was searching through the default avatars and it reminded me of a friends avatar



anyway for actual game related business:

potentially dumb read alert: i kind of feel like cape has almost been too wrong to be mafia, and...i don't really get what the mafia were doing if they ere, like, distancing from each other day 1 but HARD SHIELDING cape, because, like, no offense but he has the last forum mafia experience of anyone here? don't get me wrong, he's a sharp kid, no slouch at all, but like, do they realistically expect him to endgame in this playerlist? probably not, so like, are they really going to spend day 1 trying to powerwolf for him? kinda doubt it, feels in my gut like bog standard white knighting now (i am pretty sure i have scumread cape in every single non-turbo game i have played with him. i was right once! but honestly he was worse that game than he's been here and his WIM sank like a stone despite the fact that his team was winning)

i imagine the game went down the chute once ladd actually died there

[hollowkatt]

The point being is that I don't necessarily want to provide the decisive vote onto anyone if I wind up wrong (remember this is information voting from my end; it's different when pursuing a hard case.)

It's not a strategy, just psychology.






Yeah, again I can't wrap my head around that. I'd rather be decisively wrong and own it than leave things up to chance.
All voting is "information voting" unless you've got a red check on someone so yeah.

I do believe you believe what you're saying though

[nebjiamn]

K I’ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he’ll flip v

im gonna die and you’re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn’t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn’t catch on.

I’ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

[nebjiamn]

No one else is mafia

except monty

and kat

and cape

and dobby

but no one else

[Cuthillius]

K I’ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he’ll flip v

im gonna die and you’re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn’t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn’t catch on.

I’ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

counterpoint: i was never going over there

[Raskolnikov]

I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town

But so does like

everyone that isn't Mont :laugh4:

i mean even Mont has some good posts

tbh you should be turboed in the unlikely event Monty doesn't flip wolf (because I go afk for 24h and you are setting me up for next day lol. u know even if you pretend to not seeing it, people read the thread and have witnessed the action. tinfoiling a slots for raisins won't do any good here. #forSunbae)

hollowkatt: re Winston might have been a read list: remember this post from EOD1 where he said "Ladd/Newcomb/Montmorency were all good targets"? I do

[Raskolnikov]

tbh you should be turboed in the unlikely event Monty doesn't flip wolf (because I go afk for 24h and you are setting me up for next day lol. u know even if you pretend to not seeing it, people read the thread and have witnessed the action. tinfoiling a slots for raisins won't do any good here. #forSunbae)

hollowkatt: re Winston might have been a read list: remember this post from EOD1 where he said "Ladd/Newcomb/Montmorency were all good targets"? I do

*re Winston might have been a read list kill

[Raskolnikov]

my ideal f3 is me, you, and raskol b/c shitposting galore

https://c.tenor.com/PoCnOT2YzOkAAAAM/im-in-jump-in.gif

(It's not happening sadly)

[Raskolnikov]

Cuthillius

Remember the failure of Mass Effect? D4 we Tdome, I'm ousted, you're NKed, Visor MLed LYLO. Check yourself.



Winston's power level is even higher than Zack's, he routinely gets killed early as town.



die

:smash:



:smash:



Why go after sorc? Sorc is more likely to get town killed than scum, and is less efficient than a plain vig. Moreover, waiting until D2 allows for rolefishing.



WAGONOMICS



It's so strange that when I did this (D1 unvote killing scum) as town, which I surely always am, I was almost consensus cleared for it.



Setting up D4.



The only thing against me is the Newcomb flub, which while bad does not change the reality of prior interactions with known scum.



So the immediate point about this list is that from a scum-Katze POV:

D3: Mont
D4: Cape
D5: Cuth
D6: Dobby

is pretty much necessary. Although if neither katze nor none of those options are scum themselves then any scum would have to follow the same path, substituting katze for Cuth.

What I'm saying is that the POE is kind of rigid from almost any theory of the game.

Coolbean.gif

[Raskolnikov]

I mean, it feels like "hey that was a good plan, can't believe it didn't work here saddddddssssssss"

[Raskolnikov]

I hate this game tbh: because of Benneh's post, I am rereading EOD1 to check cuth's positionning, and I read Dobby's readlist gut clearing all flipped scums.

"monstrbro - town."

"EnderWiggin - I've had some big doubts on this slot because a lot of thought patterns have felt feigned (i translated the word from swedish sorry if its a dumb word that doesnt make sense) but the more i think about it i feel like it's probably just from a town mindset and if i go with gut this is just town yes."

"Ladd - I've been flipflopping on ladd, this post just had way more than id expect at that point, but maybe its just the ladd way of pumping out reads and then tweaking. His later posts just feel like they have the enthusiasm and "fire" that town ladd has, especially the more (for ladd) wordy ones, it's also a bit relaxed which is nice to see. Gut says town."

anyone has meta on wolf!Dobby? (don't say 1610 pls)

back to reading cuth's EOD :coffee:

[Raskolnikov]

i kinda still feel like dobby might be scum, but if so this is a work of genius

(speaking about the above read list)

[Raskolnikov]

Players Votes
Enderwiggin 4 Raskolnikov, zack, Montmorency, nebjiamn
Montmorency 2 Csargo, Sunbae
Sleep 2 ladd, Newcomb
Csargo 2 Cape90, hollowkatt
Newcomb 2 Enderwiggin, Sleep
Raskolnikov 2 Monstrdude, Cuthillius
hollowkatt 1 Dobby
zack 1 Winston Hughes
Dobby 0
Cuthillius 0
katze 0
Sunbae 0
Winston Hughes 0
ladd 0
Cape90 0
nebjiamn 0
Monstrdude 0


another tally, pls check to make sure its okay

gonna try tinkering with the formatting


_:00

Time to take this into my own hands.

Vote: Rask



Bold the leader?

This feels bad because from the competing wagons, I am prolly the one with the lower perceived skills AND have a locked vote on my face because monstr isn't coming back.

The reply to Visor also feels like it's precisaly the VC which triggered the vote switch from Monty. the VC with a clear incoming wolf lunch

I will check Monty's reads on me prior to this point once I am done with cuth's EOD.

[Raskolnikov]

(no post from cuth yet in my reread)
(so it feels good to lock Monty in the meantime :creep:)


Voting Newcomb is a dumb idea katze. Vote Ender instead.

this is prolly Monty's next post after having unvoted Ender to tie me up with him.

LOL

[Raskolnikov]

I have mixed feelings about most of you.



Is this a bit?


no...


You keep starting bare wagons.



Also, I'm reticent to even voice this, but I can't help but notice how the host declined to edit his tally even when you posted a new vote just seconds before.

Almost as if he KNEW you were about to change your vote.

:magnify:


yeah

but they're honest

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters

[Raskolnikov]

oh and more to the point if this is tryhard wolf bladescape i think that maintaining this level of play would be challenging in a way distinct from average in this playerlist

ie i'm happy with what i'm seeing today and i'm not super worried about him going super deep if w and i'm very happy with holding him to the precedent he set d1 in future phases

This post comes after what could be read as TMI reads on Newcomb and Cape.


i'm very comfortable with calling cape strong v at this point and just making sure to look back in a day or two


this feels like it comes from v!newc some amount more often than not

But rn I am not seeing how Cuth goes from soft defending goon!Ender to bus sorcerer!Ladd.

...

Nah actually I see how he could have (w!Cuth sees that 1. Monstr is about to get banned and is LHF that isn't endgaming anyway 2. sees that Ender is not ending game too re the amount of heat he got D1 3. panicks at EOD when he sees the CFD on Ladd and thinks bussing hard here is the only path to victory). A possibility to me rn, nothing definitive though.

Moving on. :anothercoffee:

[Raskolnikov]

COntext


​Vote: Cuthillius


Cuth can you tell me about your rask read or link me to where you discuss it?

Compare this:


uh sure i can flesh it out once i catch up

off the top of my head his posting last night was pretty yawn and then he was pushing something i didn't like when i voted him

to this:


my issue is that

and this may be a factor of the playerlist composition

everyone feels super homogeneous in a way that's distinct from like thinking everyone's super towny or whatever

just there aren't. lines

there aren't divides which aren't necessarily that helpful but once you stack enough of them on top of each other people start popping out

there's like some of it in the org-specific group kiinda but even then it's. very non-discrete in a way that doesn't make me uncomfortable because i don't think we're like way off track necessarily but it's puzzling

last post feels like a preemptive back up reasonning to vote me out (with unfakable in-depht thinking lmao) because he may have felt something ugly could happen to him. dunno

moving on (rn I am still at Monty > above them all fwiw. I am just trying to see if "Cuth is a wolf" is an idea that matches what happened at EOD1, because I had the thought too N1 and Benneh's post was convincing. might as well test it because I don't want us to railroad Monty being lazy)

[Raskolnikov]

I think katze calling that post out is a good look for them btw. (independantly of Cuth's alignment, because the switch between the posts I just quoted from Cuth in terms of wording, thinking, etc... is noticeable)

[Raskolnikov]

no lol

here is another good look for our favorite cat (I am pretty sure they'd me as LHF as wolf. definatly if tied to zackito. so I'd expect w!katze to go with a "why? word salad" rather than "no lol")

[Raskolnikov]

Talk to me about why? I don't feel he's done anything that sticks out to me as super scummy.

CASE IN POINT lmao.

I am locking katze villa. took me a while but I am landing here.

[Raskolnikov]

I secretly hope Cuth is town tbh (I parked on Ender before going Cuth > ladd D1), because otherwise my LHF status will take a serious hit and I will have to shorten my posts and slack even harder as town. which is out of my range tbh. (u can switch Cuth for Monty, it works too)

apologies for this post btw. (I just had an ego pooping watching at the D1 VCs)

[Raskolnikov]

If you're so convinced I'm town, why do you seem so unimpressed by my case?

Caveat that I've skimmed very vaguely so if I missed something I apologise, but it feels like you've slapped this great big townread on me but have also completely ignored my actual push and has put a weak af townread on Newcomb

This feels indeed partnery (Ender self applpying MASSIVE TOWNREAD to his slot, and points out a bad move from wolfbuddy!Cuth to get him to work more and look better). Maybessssss

[nebjiamn]

vote: monty

just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me

[Raskolnikov]

OK Cuth you are full of crap lmao. The only mention about my slot in your ISO is the initial "lock villa"


what 180?


your point being?

i didn't say "i wrote a bunch of words about rask in my iso"

i said "i voted rask because his entrance was lackluster and he was pushing something i didn't like right before i voted him and i'll give it a closer look once i've caught up"


You are saying it now actually. What's the thing I was pushing you didn't like?


benneh

ender
katze
sunbae

monstr

cape
hk but this read is from early d1
newc

roro
sleep
zack

ladd

csargo

monty
winston

rask

and if you're saying to yourself "gee four orgers on the bottom of that list" guess what i've been saying to myself for the last like 24 hours too

alphabetical within tiers as always

ok tell me t!Cuth is gueninely solving here (compare the vote reason to my position in the read list, add the fact that before I started this convo with my subtile "you are full of crap", there was one mention of me in Cuth's ISO locking me villa for my opening shit post talking about shitposting - ur not up to my level Dobby, surrender - )

---

tbh on reread I am liking this more and more. I can totally see how w!Cuth ends up bussing the AFK ladd. (because that's his only path to victory with Monstr/Ender positionning, his own positionning that was starting to be called out by me, sleep, WH and others, and the CFD on missing Ladd)

[nebjiamn]

Montmorency lunched


nebjiamn NK'd


kill katze


rask NK'd


kill cuth


sleep NK'd


F3:
hollowkatt , Dobby, Cape

[nebjiamn]

dead villagers don't know shit

​vote: cuth

[nebjiamn]

worst case scenario:

we lunch v!cuth who should basically be lock clear, open up the game for a boxed in wolf that should have 0 chance because they don't have enough miskills unless we kill cuth today, and we lose the game tragically in f3

that's not ... so bad?

[Raskolnikov]

vote: monty

just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me

"I refuse not to conf-bias myself"

[Raskolnikov]

So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?


for the love of all that is good in the world please just don't.

https://acegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/acegif-com-sweating-2.gif

[Raskolnikov]

So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?


and also no it wouldn't tip the scale there in the slightest i already think you're probably town but that doesn't mean much about the validity of your read

sorry if sounds harsh

the most useful thing it would do is make me consider how newc's treated you this phase but off the top of my head i don't have big issues with that so

Compare Cuth's post in reply to Ender, to his reason to lock me scum. ("ur villa, but I don't think ur reads are of any value, Ender" vs "Rask, you are scum because I disagree with your push (on Ender))

[Raskolnikov]

what is the point of this post


Hearing your case actually, or even the reason you have to vote me.


why would i even have to have a reason to vote you?


oh i forgot about this post

i have a hard time reading monstr because his playstyle as a wolf is self-aware in a way distinct from a lot of people, and it's not just like being able to post like a villager would but genuinely intuitively generating stuff that he would think as a villager by maintaining a sort of self-aware distance while wolfing

meaning his wolf posts have a villagery flavor to them that is stronger than a lot of peoples' and it's similar enough to mine that i have a hard time ever trusting how i read it


vote: cuthillius

multiquote drama. Continuing in an incoming post.

[Raskolnikov]

@cuthilius: what did you mean in that post? you can't read monstr because?


Cuthillius


oh i forgot about this post

i have a hard time reading monstr because his playstyle as a wolf is self-aware in a way distinct from a lot of people, and it's not just like being able to post like a villager would but genuinely intuitively generating stuff that he would think as a villager by maintaining a sort of self-aware distance while wolfing

meaning his wolf posts have a villagery flavor to them that is stronger than a lot of peoples' and it's similar enough to mine that i have a hard time ever trusting how i read it


ok. I still don't get the last sentence (like if you can isolate a pattern of posting which is AI for him, and it's a behaviour which is simular to yours, which arguably you can understand, why don't you trust that particular read?).

---

vote: Cuthillius

---



looking back i'm pretty sure i voted you primarily for

you'll never guess

your catchup being lackluster but mostly specifically this post

ender i've talked about more than enough

sunbae i think is pretty villagery but there's been enough waffling that it's conceivably something wolves feel absolutely fine going for

and monty is shrug it's fine but i don't super vibe with any of the people who feel more strongly about it than mild shrug and doesn't look good

and specifically i think these reads are presented from most to least objectionable

and in the absence of thinking any individuals are super wolfy i'm inclined to vote the people who are not actively villagery and who are also trying to kill people that a) i think are villagers and b) feel like villagers wolves would try to kill here

my "most objectionable read" was...

... wait for it...

...Ender, a wolf.

[Raskolnikov]

I need to go, but will come back to this and check the context of Cuth's vote on Ladd.

[Visor]

Players Votes

Montmorency 6 (Sleep, Dobby, Cuthillius, Cape90, hollowkatt, katze)
Cuthillius 2 (nebjiamn, Raskolnikov)
katze 1 (Montmorency)

[Raskolnikov]

looking back i'm pretty sure i voted you primarily for

you'll never guess

your catchup being lackluster but mostly specifically this post

ender i've talked about more than enough

sunbae i think is pretty villagery but there's been enough waffling that it's conceivably something wolves feel absolutely fine going for

and monty is shrug it's fine but i don't super vibe with any of the people who feel more strongly about it than mild shrug and doesn't look good

and specifically i think these reads are presented from most to least objectionable

and in the absence of thinking any individuals are super wolfy i'm inclined to vote the people who are not actively villagery and who are also trying to kill people that a) i think are villagers and b) feel like villagers wolves would try to kill here


ok so you are not poundering my alignment here. cool stuff. (because that's basically what you are doing here, you don't try to figure it out. why is me disagreeing with you about 3 specific slots makes me a wolf?)


it's not, i don't really have that much of a read on you

i'm voting you because i have an idea of who villagers are in this game and no real leads in any way on who the wolves are and so i'm voting people who aren't villagery and who are trying to kill villagers

that doesn't mean that your posts are wolfy it just means they're not villagery and you're trying to kill people i think are villagers and also in what could be an opportunistic way

OK, lets be real. These can come from a villager. Still, I can't shake out of my head some bits of it are absolutely disgustingly wolfy. Like the bold sentence. It perfectly matches what the challenge wolves face D1.

Montmorency: I strongly suggest you hope on pal. katze is prolly villa and we really need a thunderdome toDay (we really need to yeet a wolf and end this game, but in the case we fail, we need that info)

[Raskolnikov]

it's kinda sad that both katze and benneh are voting me

that gets me down a bit

in terms of how i'm playing this game

i would be tempted to vote ladd but i think winston voting ladd just from the game perspective more broadly is vaguely wack and it makes me feel less great about it

rask is fine

otherwise csargo monty really just feel like uninteresting

i think if i had another hour i might feel good about going hk but right now i have a hard time i need to spend more time and there isn't more time

https://c.tenor.com/KwICUgZGJwEAAAAC/its-happening-meme.gif

I don't know how though:

- these posts I quoted are consecutive. "no read on you" into "Rask is fine". it's possible, ngl.

why is ladd pushed over Monty/Csargo though? (compared to his last posted readlist)



vote: winston


1102

Players Votes

Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Newcomb 2 (Enderwiggin, Sleep)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
hollowkatt 2 (Dobby, Csargo)
Raskolnikov 2 (Monstrdude, Montmorency)
ladd 1 (Winston Hughes)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
Winston Hughes 1 (Cuthillius)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Cuthillius 1 (Raskolnikov)


there's basically zero upside if newc flips v

given the way basically everyone's handled him


ok fair

you were like hm maybe we can go newc here? or something

and i was like

what


vote: ladd

---

So, as I said earlier, I totally get how w!Cuth ends up bussing in this gamestate (Ender widely sussed, Monstr banned, Ladd afk). It's a win strat when Ladd flips.

What is giving me pause is why resist the Newcomb pushes? It's very possible to get away with his ML D1 I guess? And it'd be arguably good for the wolf pack.

---

"why is ladd pushed over Monty/Csargo though? (compared to his last posted readlist)": I reread Benneh's post (Benneh's post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053831061&viewfull=1#post2053831061)) and I think he might be right.

Cuth's switch on me and gearing up on Ladd is just after this VC (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829356&viewfull=1#post2053829356), which suggest Cuth is about to eat it.

[Raskolnikov]

/End of Spam.

Cuth, sorry if wrong. You have time to change my mind. :hide:

[hollowkatt]

*re Winston might have been a read list kill

I do remember that. I think winston is combo reads, spk, "never getting chopped", and "killed our PR"

[Dobby]

K I?ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he?ll flip v

im gonna die and you?re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn?t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn?t catch on.

I?ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

I think similar cases can be built around... everyone tbh? I mean both you and I had votes and thoughts that didn't gully align with what we had said previously

If it's cuth gamed gonna be extremely hard

[Dobby]

No one else is mafia

except monty

and kat

and cape

and dobby

but no one else

Stop taking me out of the clears :stare:

[Dobby]

I hate this game tbh: because of Benneh's post, I am rereading EOD1 to check cuth's positionning, and I read Dobby's readlist gut clearing all flipped scums.

"monstrbro - town."

"EnderWiggin - I've had some big doubts on this slot because a lot of thought patterns have felt feigned (i translated the word from swedish sorry if its a dumb word that doesnt make sense) but the more i think about it i feel like it's probably just from a town mindset and if i go with gut this is just town yes."

"Ladd - I've been flipflopping on ladd, this post just had way more than id expect at that point, but maybe its just the ladd way of pumping out reads and then tweaking. His later posts just feel like they have the enthusiasm and "fire" that town ladd has, especially the more (for ladd) wordy ones, it's also a bit relaxed which is nice to see. Gut says town."

anyone has meta on wolf!Dobby? (don't say 1610 pls)

back to reading cuth's EOD :coffee:

Yeah my gut sucks but I also had a few posts sussing ender and later on way more me-ender stuff that were just very anti eachother. When It comes to ladd I kept coming back to a read based off his early "faked" posts vs thinking he played with more oomph compared to his recent wolfgames.

And regarding monstr the read was just a "he doesn't tilt the fuxk out like this is he's a wolf" but he did


Wolfing means i can control my moves and generally the state of the mafia game pretty well, in general. There are a few mu wolf games but mainly maybe sf in champs 2 years ago I guess where we swept.

I had a gut list and a non gut list btw, and both ender and ladd were bottom tier in the non gut list but that probably doesn't mean anything atp

[Dobby]

here is another good look for our favorite cat (I am pretty sure they'd me as LHF as wolf. definatly if tied to zackito. so I'd expect w!katze to go with a "why? word salad" rather than "no lol")

I'm not sure I'm following your thought process here (you're mentioning posts I have a hard time finding) but I think majority of the playerlist would've answered like this


CASE IN POINT lmao.

I am locking katze villa. took me a while but I am landing here.

I don't understand this conclusion either from you, van you put it in one post pls so my smol brain can vibe with it

[hollowkatt]

I think similar cases can be built around... everyone tbh? I mean both you and I had votes and thoughts that didn't gully align with what we had said previously

If it's cuth gamed gonna be extremely hard

which is why today is the day to chop cuth
vote: Cuthillius
Raskolnikov good case.

I have played with wolf cuth at least twice. The first time was a smallish light game where he was wolf with michelle and dizzy and in that game he was pretty solvy and very hard to catch.

In Ice Cream Teams otoh his play is very similar to his play here. Short posts, quick thoughts, not a whole lot of meat on the bone to interact with, meek pushes.

I'm in

[hollowkatt]

also Raskolnikov stop doing coffee tells or I'm going to chop you

[Dobby]

ok tell me t!Cuth is gueninely solving here (compare the vote reason to my position in the read list, add the fact that before I started this convo with my subtile "you are full of crap", there was one mention of me in Cuth's ISO locking me villa for my opening shit post talking about shitposting - ur not up to my level Dobby, surrender - )

---

tbh on reread I am liking this more and more. I can totally see how w!Cuth ends up bussing the AFK ladd. (because that's his only path to victory with Monstr/Ender positionning, his own positionning that was starting to be called out by me, sleep, WH and others, and the CFD on missing Ladd)

I was vibing with a w! Rask world d1 as well (I mena i voted You because hk didn't get voted by anyone) so I'm nit that amazed by this, but I'll say I paid very little attention to cuth past my tonal read on him.

I still think cuth should get more cred for his exchange with monstr, I feel like he's just not felt super invested in this game and that's not a wolfy thing per se. I mean I still haven't read a lot of the posts in the game and can't make informed comments on some things but that also doesn't mean I am not putting in effort. You choose your fights or smth

[Dobby]

vote: monty

just listen to zack, newc, and sunbae and not me

This but also THIS

Can we just chop monty and not make the game harder than it needs to be ( I saw a few votes on other people and fuck that tbh)

Because I think we have like 8 different preferences rn and all the smart dead ppl have been lying for montys head for a long time and it just needs to happen

Pwetty pwease

[hollowkatt]

This but also THIS

Can we just chop monty and not make the game harder than it needs to be ( I saw a few votes on other people and fuck that tbh)

Because I think we have like 8 different preferences rn and all the smart dead ppl have been lying for montys head for a long time and it just needs to happen

Pwetty pwease

chops, in any order, that I would support: monte, cuth, cape

I'm thinking about what happens if/when monte doesn't end the game, who wakes up in the morning, etc.

[Dobby]

---

vote: Cuthillius

---




my "most objectionable read" was...

... wait for it...

...Ender, a wolf.

I'm proly gona look really dumb when cuth flips w but

Throwing more of my pride away here


I feel like you've kinda buried yourself into a hole here where you see you past conflict thingie with cuth and jump back into the same mindset. The things you call out don't feel like anything significant for me. You post some back and forths that don't look like anything and then draw q conclusion because he was kinda wrong?

[Dobby]

OK, lets be real. These can come from a villager. Still, I can't shake out of my head some bits of it are absolutely disgustingly wolfy. Like the bold sentence. It perfectly matches what the challenge wolves face D1.

Montmorency: I strongly suggest you hope on pal. katze is prolly villa and we really need a thunderdome toDay (we really need to yeet a wolf and end this game, but in the case we fail, we need that info)

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

[Dobby]

which is why today is the day to chop cuth
vote: Cuthillius
Raskolnikov good case.

I have played with wolf cuth at least twice. The first time was a smallish light game where he was wolf with michelle and dizzy and in that game he was pretty solvy and very hard to catch.

In Ice Cream Teams otoh his play is very similar to his play here. Short posts, quick thoughts, not a whole lot of meat on the bone to interact with, meek pushes.

I'm in

Rasks case made no sense at all lol

Bennehs case was really good and something a smol brain like me could understand too


But there's still monty and cuth doesn't go before monty in any reasonable word

[hollowkatt]

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

generally speaking raskol cases are not "could this player be a wolf" they are "this is why this player is a wolf"

[nebjiamn]

dobby just SHEP

[Dobby]

generally speaking raskol cases are not "could this player be a wolf" they are "this is why this player is a wolf"

so why does he criticise cuth for doing just that :stare:

to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town.


I mean if im going to keep presenting gut reads, yeah gut read now says cuth w but i still see monty w over cuth.


dobby just SHEP

im sheping the wise dead townies and so shoul dyou :whip:

[hollowkatt]

so why does he criticise cuth for doing just that :stare:

to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town.


I mean if im going to keep presenting gut reads, yeah gut read now says cuth w but i still see monty w over cuth.



im sheping the wise dead townies and so shoul dyou :whip:

To me chopping Monte is a foregone conclusion. I like that Rask is talking about Cuth b/c that jibes with my feelings earlier this game.
I don't think anyone is doing anything as dumb as clearing Monte here. Monte is going to die. Highly likely that's today and highly likely it ends the game.

If it doesn't end the game then we can review today again in light of who isn't with us and go from there. I would argue Cuth is a reasonable suspect. I would also argue that Cape is a reasonable suspect on account of Cape really only turning up the solving when they're under some amount of pressure.

I would say that neb, dobby, katze, sleep, rask should not be considered as possible wolves until and unless we have gone through monte, cuth, cape first. And at that point it's F3 anyways.

[hollowkatt]

my vote on cuth is a solidarity/signaling vote that I think cuth has wolf potential. I want monte dead today.

[Dobby]

i was doing something and then noted this, ill keep doing that something but i wanted to get this out in a separate post


quoting relevant part of the readslist post from katze


..........

five clears still wins the game. i've been kinda solving as if i'd be one of them because i'm a villager but i get it. i'll be grumpy about it but i get it. five clears outside of myself should still be pretty easy anyway

my first clear is still raskol. [text deleted]

scond clear would still be benneh - [text deleted]

third is cuth, and i really do not understand why people are trying to throw that name back out? i was tempted to put him above benneh simply because i think they're both villagers anyway and if they're both villagers then the order doesn't matter so me putting him higher would make people feel dumber if they went against the word of everybody, but i mean. i am technically more confident in the above two

anyway uh. again, the easy answer is "cuths EoD1 is just flat out terrible play if he's mafia ngl" but also like... there's a level of. i don't know the right word. i kinda just... feel like they're the same as they were in SF2 on like d3 onwards? the slightly-deflated-because-wrong cuth? idk. i just get about the same vibes. if the above two reads are a 10/10 in confidence this one is like a 9.5/10 still

number four... it gets a bit harder, i can't really pick one or the other so i'll just say both sleep and hollowkatt --

sleep because i'm pretty sure every player on D1 who asked about "who is sleep" has since then flipped mafia which probably just spews him V right there and now that i type this out why is this below cuth? i guess he did try to clear ender off of ladds flip? sure we'll go with that. anyway sleep is the player in this game that i read their posts and i kinda just naturally feel inclined to townread them. most games have one of these players, in my experience they're almost always villagers that i talk myself out of townreading out of paranoia at some point. i think the early cape case was still a genuine attempt to solve (note for the future: if the game is hard go double check who was under pressure around the time it got posted, i don't remember) and one of those posts that a wolf just doesn't write in most worlds

i guess there's still a little bit of paranoia here, because i feel like both of their EoDs weren't especially clearing off of memory, but i still think they're really fucking villagery and criticizing someone for being wrong on newcomb after *glances in a mirror* is kinda joycat of me

and then HK is. well, okay, i'll fully admit the fact he was basically shielding me earlier was a part of it, so the fact that changed saddens me and may have lowered him a bit subconsciously, but i think the dude's still just a villager off of posting alone. pretty sure he has some D1 posts that have aged like wine wrt "interactions with wolves" but i'm not opening an iso for a thoughtdump post that ruins the point of it



so like, i'm pretty happy with those 5

my thoughts beyond those 5 are like

well, i'm me, i'm town. hi me.

dobby has been pretty hard shielded by people i think are town and i'm not 100% sold on it personally but it kinda feels right, so i think you're probably town

and it leaves monty and cape, both people who like [insert more text]

That's pretty quickly followed by this post when i ask if im in her poe



i don't really think you're mafia i just personally have more concrete reasons to townread 6 people over you and probably would have/literally wanted you dead d2/early d3 if not for sunbaes shield

if i were going off of just last day phase and this one you'd probably be in the top 5 over... cuth or sleep?

idk. my point is more "i think it's in the bottom 2" than anything else and if it's not i'd be more willing to Put In Effort ig[more irrelevant text cut out]


This shift doesn't.... make sense. If it's just a reaction that kat takes two steps back in response to me pushing back/asking why im in poe that leads to the shift it... doesn't make sense for katze, i think? And if it's not as a reaction to my reaction, i still don't understand what would lead to that? I'm not saying it's scummy im just saying it exists and im not sure why

[Dobby]

To me chopping Monte is a foregone conclusion. I like that Rask is talking about Cuth b/c that jibes with my feelings earlier this game.
I don't think anyone is doing anything as dumb as clearing Monte here. Monte is going to die. Highly likely that's today and highly likely it ends the game.

If it doesn't end the game then we can review today again in light of who isn't with us and go from there. I would argue Cuth is a reasonable suspect. I would also argue that Cape is a reasonable suspect on account of Cape really only turning up the solving when they're under some amount of pressure.

I would say that neb, dobby, katze, sleep, rask should not be considered as possible wolves until and unless we have gone through monte, cuth, cape first. And at that point it's F3 anyways.

i mightve very well said clearing monty at some point earlier but definitely didnt mean that - i am just still arguing against yoinking cuth over monty. I think atp (even though i flipflop a lot) cuth is also my second preferred yoink but cuth/kat/cape keep contesting eachother for that spot.


the solidarity thing i understand, i just cant shake off the feeling we'll have a new newcomb situation tongiht and thats why i seem to be so passionate about this thing, because i think i am

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not sure I'm following your thought process here (you're mentioning posts I have a hard time finding) but I think majority of the playerlist would've answered like this



I don't understand this conclusion either from you, van you put it in one post pls so my smol brain can vibe with it

I didn't remember Ender's post when I reread Katze's one. I thought w!katze would have strenghtened Winston's gut read and push, softly, not directly. Guess what flipped wolf Ender did a few post below replying to that katze's post? exactly that. Even starting his post with how I'd imagine a wolf would write it.

so I am OK with having katze as town, if that makes sense.

[Raskolnikov]

I was vibing with a w! Rask world d1 as well (I mena i voted You because hk didn't get voted by anyone) so I'm nit that amazed by this, but I'll say I paid very little attention to cuth past my tonal read on him.

I still think cuth should get more cred for his exchange with monstr, I feel like he's just not felt super invested in this game and that's not a wolfy thing per se. I mean I still haven't read a lot of the posts in the game and can't make informed comments on some things but that also doesn't mean I am not putting in effort. You choose your fights or smth

just to be clear, my ping was a joke about u being jealous not being invited to the shitposting F3 by HK :creep:

[Dobby]

Montmorency lunched


nebjiamn NK'd


kill katze


rask NK'd


kill cuth


sleep NK'd


F3:
hollowkatt , Dobby, Cape

dont you mean kill cuth -> kill katze?

[Dobby]

just to be clear, my ping was a joke about u being jealous not being invited to the shitposting F3 by HK :creep:

i got that part, i didnt get the rest :wowee:. I think i kinda do get the explanation but it doesn't feel like a big/meaningful thing

[Dobby]

Raskolnikov do you have any thoughts on cape? he's been after you a huge chunk of at least today and you don't really have anything in response to that, nor much mention of cape at all (unless my searching through posts skills suck butt). Where would you place him from a poe/clears standpoint?

[Raskolnikov]

I'm proly gona look really dumb when cuth flips w but

Throwing more of my pride away here


I feel like you've kinda buried yourself into a hole here where you see you past conflict thingie with cuth and jump back into the same mindset. The things you call out don't feel like anything significant for me. You post some back and forths that don't look like anything and then draw q conclusion because he was kinda wrong?

no. I tryed to show how partnery he have been with Ender, and why he would have to bus Ladd here to have a chance with how the wolves were having an hard time at EOD1 (sussed, banned, leading VC, afk).

[Raskolnikov]

Raskolnikov do you have any thoughts on cape? he's been after you a huge chunk of at least today and you don't really have anything in response to that, nor much mention of cape at all (unless my searching through posts skills suck butt). Where would you place him from a poe/clears standpoint?

I think he is villa by vertue of lacking self-awareness kinda. I think he has derped convincingly too earlier (thinking Winston and me were the same person for instance).

my POE rn: Cuth > Monty. You and him are next if the game isn't over by then I guess.

[Raskolnikov]

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

I disagree lol. Maybe a language thing (I can read English fairly well, writing it is another thing, and I too lazy to increase my level to finer stages where I could write cases filled with fancy words tbh), but my goal is to demonstrate why cuth being a wolf is a definative possibility. Monty is too but for reasons which can be dismissed by a simple TWTBAW (his unvote, his opening post, etc...).

Sell him to me I guess.

[Raskolnikov]

It's funny that you say "you're not pondering my alignment" when that's exactly what you do here and it's what bugs me. These last 20 quotewalls from you that I've tried to process are plain and simple "why cuth is wolf" rather than "could cuth be wolf" And it makes it hard to take seriously

Beside, it's not the same thing. I am definatly trying to explain why he is/could be a wolf. He was voting me out D1 without much of a reason (outside sussing and parking Ender for a good chunck of the day. u can look for my posts about Ender fwiw. I know it's pain since we can ISO only the most recent 100 posts but hey, u can still do it).
He was voting me out because he thought I was wrong (yeah he said I was looking opportunisticly looking for a towny ML... when I had barely posted D1 because I had friendos that week end at home). That's not evaluating my alignment.

Beside, from where this confidence comes from (that I am misreading villagers and going for ML)? Look again his post to Ender saying he is town for raisins despite his crap reads, and compare his treatment of Ender's slot, compared to mine (I quoted it in the last couple of pages). Look again why he turnarounded finally saying "Rask is fine"... etc

Is it really the same thing? I don't think so.

[Dobby]

Dobby: Monty - Cuth - katze - Cape

katze: Cape - Monty - Dobby - ? (not sure who next person would be, maybe cuth or sleep? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053831121&viewfull=1#post2053831121)


Benneh: Cuth - Monty - Cape - katze ?


Raskolnikov: Cuth - Monty - Dobby - ?


Hollowkatt: Monty - Cuth - Cape (?) - ?


Monty: katze - Cuth - Dobby - Sleep? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053831041&viewfull=1#post2053831041)


-----


Cape90: Monty - Rask? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053830984&highlight=#post2053830984) (goes back to saying "rask is probably town, so i can't identify a preferred poe from cape's post)


Cuth: Monty - dobby?katze?sleep?


Sleep: Monty - katze/cuth? - ?





Cuth/Cape/Sleep I can't identify clear thoughts on what their PoE is, kinda seems like they're just content with Monty and game ends after that? Some names are mentioned but followed by "prolly just town" ish posts.





My point with doing this is that... We have Monty/Cape/Cuth/katze as preferred nr 1 yeet across the board. That's 4 names. I think other than katze being cleared by someone (idr who) we have a pretty super duper wide poe. I'm definitely included in that poe as well. That's 5 names.


We kinda need to cover all or at least bases for if monty isn't the yeet. Prolly not going to do that all-in today, but I think it's important to note that we can't just get into a f7/f5 where 5 people have 5 preferred yeets, that's suck poopbutt. I'm not sure how we're going to find the clears tho but we should like, spend our time trying to agree on stuff

[Raskolnikov]

so why does he criticise cuth for doing just that :stare:

to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town.


I mean if im going to keep presenting gut reads, yeah gut read now says cuth w but i still see monty w over cuth.



im sheping the wise dead townies and so shoul dyou :whip:

I just tryed again. You can stare at us all you want, it's not the same thing.

[Dobby]

no. I tryed to show how partnery he have been with Ender, and why he would have to bus Ladd here to have a chance with how the wolves were having an hard time at EOD1 (sussed, banned, leading VC, afk).

Yeah I see that part of it but i also think i've read arguments (just now when i looked through a ton of posts but idr from who) about why those exact same posts mean cuth isnt teamed with ender so yeah, it's hard to just pick a side and hope it's correct based on that specifically.



I think he is villa by vertue of lacking self-awareness kinda. I think he has derped convincingly too earlier (thinking Winston and me were the same person for instance).

my POE rn: Cuth > Monty. You and him are next if the game isn't over by then I guess.

cool then i kinda got it right

[hollowkatt]

i was doing something and then noted this, ill keep doing that something but i wanted to get this out in a separate post


quoting relevant part of the readslist post from katze



That's pretty quickly followed by this post when i ask if im in her poe





This shift doesn't.... make sense. If it's just a reaction that kat takes two steps back in response to me pushing back/asking why im in poe that leads to the shift it... doesn't make sense for katze, i think? And if it's not as a reaction to my reaction, i still don't understand what would lead to that? I'm not saying it's scummy im just saying it exists and im not sure why

legit and valid and is basically the biggest thing that would make me question my read on katze

[hollowkatt]

i mightve very well said clearing monty at some point earlier but definitely didnt mean that - i am just still arguing against yoinking cuth over monty. I think atp (even though i flipflop a lot) cuth is also my second preferred yoink but cuth/kat/cape keep contesting eachother for that spot.


the solidarity thing i understand, i just cant shake off the feeling we'll have a new newcomb situation tongiht and thats why i seem to be so passionate about this thing, because i think i am

Yeah, Monte dies today. I'll end there

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah I see that part of it but i also think i've read arguments (just now when i looked through a ton of posts but idr from who) about why those exact same posts mean cuth isnt teamed with ender so yeah, it's hard to just pick a side and hope it's correct based on that specifically.




cool then i kinda got it right

it's OK, you are not up to my level :wowee:

sorry, I am a clown

gtg again, sell me on Monty has more partner equity to the flipped wolfs than Cuth in the meantime (if u have time I mean :p)

[Dobby]

I disagree lol. Maybe a language thing (I can read English fairly well, writing it is another thing, and I too lazy to increase my level to finer stages where I could write cases filled with fancy words tbh), but my goal is to demonstrate why cuth being a wolf is a definative possibility. Monty is too but for reasons which can be dismissed by a simple TWTBAW (his unvote, his opening post, etc...).

Sell him to me I guess.

im prolly worse than you at english (it doesnt have relevance to the post at all, i legit didnt know you werent a native speaker until this game i think)

i think nobody disagrees except for maybe katze that cuth could be wolf atp?



i dont see the monty twtbaw perspective - he isnt making those plays with the assumption that vest will kill one teammate the day after, and then another teammate the day after that. If ladd lives there theres always a chance of ladd surviving another day, it wasnt that clear of a wagon, yoinking any of the counterwagons wouldve been a realistic scenario, and then game doesnt look like it does today.

And one thing that should weigh in heavily is that zack, sunbae, newcomb and prolly more ppl just had monty at the bottom or bottom-adjacent in their lists.



I don't think i care that much if cuth would be the yeet at this point but i think monty just ends the game and itd be nice to not play for 3 more days and getting into the paranoia stage of the game where anything can happen (including monty not dying, seen weirder things happen)

[hollowkatt]

dont you mean kill cuth -> kill katze?

if that's F3 might as well prevote Cape tbh

[Dobby]

it's OK, you are not up to my level :wowee:

sorry, I am a clown

gtg again, sell me on Monty has more partner equity to the flipped wolfs than Cuth in the meantime (if u have time I mean :p)

i also wrote a wall:y post where i look at ALL monty interactions with the flipped wolves - vs ender it was pretty much monty pushing ender but straight up one-way communication. ladd put monty in his d1 list of 5 names and posting a list with only townies is also not-standard


id find that post (it was prolly more than one) but search function bad etc.

[Dobby]

i think i always go katze before cape tbh

[Dobby]

@raskolnikov heres the post, im removing quote tags so quotes in the post dont disappear, there was a part one



So i just ctrl f:ed "mont" in the first dayphase to see if he had written anything, or if anyone else had mentioned him




this is the early ladd readlist (one of his first non rvs posts) that i sussed him because of, it would make sense to include one wolf :P Also considering the later posts about monty its kinda weird. It feels like ladd wants this list to look real? But this is also the only post from monty before that ladd post




This might be the most interesting post of the flipped woofs/monty stuff?






like, if theyre teamed, ladd is going for it pretty hard tbh

monty comes into thread and posts a semi jokey vote on monstr, is it just me or does it look like w/w action? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828708&viewfull=1#post2053828708)






there are waaaaall catchup posts like this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829142&viewfull=1#post2053829142), he is kinda pushing ender a bit, but mentions in the other direction are few/non-existent.


and okay this is (i think) the only "response" or mention of monty (and its got ladd + monstr) (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828882&viewfull=1#post2053828882) from ender's posts and im not sure its relevant but i want it to be

ladd asks about monty here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828833&viewfull=1#post2053828833), kinda leaves it up to others to help him make an opinion on him. Not sure if it says anything, i might just be seeing what i want to see rn.



tldr and main conclusions:

the monstr interaction really looks like it could be w/w

on top of that, ladd gave monty a townread early in the first quoted post here, and proceeded to... this sentence




this just.. doesn't make sense? paraphrased the way i read it it says "people who know him well thought he was wolf so i read his previous games and he is a good wolf, so i dont see why you would wolfread him"

like

if you see someone is a good wolf, and people who know them well wolfread them

how does that land in a townread from you, and a shield?



I mean, it mostly looks bad for ladd (lol), but if i turn it around i think yes it can be to put a shield up on a townie that a lot of people push
but it could definitely also be about a teammate that he shields and has a read that he wants cred for when they get ml'ed

and combined with the early readslist post i think

it's just monty lol


part 1 was this


what if:



I guess the big question of the day is this: was there a wolf on Ladd and given their role and given the way the wagon flashed out of nowhere I'm inclined to think wolves were trying to save Ladd more so than gain credit from being on his wagon. Obvs they could not be flashy about saving him b/c it would out them.

But here's a thing:
This is the vote count from 18 minutes before EOD:


Notice a complete and utter lack of Ladd wagon other than the lone Winston vote.
Here we have one wolf on newcomb, one wolf on sleep, and one wolf on raskol. I think none of those are buses.

Then we have the next count:


It's 12 minutes later and the Cuth wagon has vanished. Ladd still at 1 vote, Cuth has moved to Winston, the Raskol wagon has also dropped a voter.

One minute to go:


6 wagons with 2 votes each. At this point there is no telling who is going to go over. Nobody can claim any kind of credit from Ladd at this point as there's no real push other than from winston to get people voting for Ladd. He's the only one stumping for the chop here.

Contrast with the final vote count:


I think this shows Raskol and Sleep are town. If they are goons they are both bused to save Ladd here. I say this because again there was not a huge impetus to save Ladd. His wagon grew organically and votes were flying pretty quickly in the last minute or so of the game day.

I think it also shows that there was not a coordinated bus effort on Ladd. Kinda want to clear his whole wagon which is why I posted the first "what if" at the top.
I want to add Cuth to the "can't be a wolf here" bucket b/c why does he vote his PR on the back of Winston asking for Ladd votes when Cuth was voting Winston moments before he votes Ladd? It doesn't add up to me. I know Cuth is an insanely good player as both alignments but still, there's literally zero reasons to move to Ladd here as wolf goon when you can just stay on Raskol, not to mention moving off of Raskol puts the Cuth wagon clearly in the lead by 2 votes which is quite a bit to overcome in the last couple minutes of a game day. It did happen so it's not impossible but still, unlikely to me that Cuth is a wolf.

Then there is the monte question. I said earlier he had votes on each of the dead wolves on D1 and ended his day on the Ladd wagon.
Before that though he is pretty much parked on Raskol in the run up to the end of the day. Like Cuth what is the impetus to move to Ladd, what does wolf?Monte gain from doing that. I argue it's the same thing with Cuth. Monte wasn't highly suspected during D1, there was no gamestate reason for Monte to reach for credit like this. He also doesn't make much noise in terms of trying to capitalize on said credit.

I would argue Monte is town for the same reasons here.

So Rask, Sleep, Cuth, Monte town

Leaving
HK
Dobby
Neb
Katze
Cape

Remove myself, remove Dobby, remove Neb. Leaves Katze and Cape.

This is where I get stuck tbh. I can find reasonable reasons to town read both of them.

vote: katze

gonna try this on for a while and see how it feels.

Hey i was going to do this but now someone else did pog


Looking at those vc's I think yes Rask is never wolf, cuth with the first vote on ladd during that eod (other that winston's that i dont count here) to make him a legit wagon when people sussed him already looks good for him.

If a wolf places a vote on ladd here it's - let's look at it.

Rask's vote was within seconds from Monty's vote and both were at :00. Rask's vote can pretty certainly be seen as self-pres. He could've placed a vote that looked good for the mafia sorcerer, but didn't, he voted him.

Those two votes took ladd from 2 votes to 4 votes, and suddenly he went from being one of many wagons, to top one.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUT

There's this fuckin post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829437&viewfull=1#post2053829437)

Let me quote it as well.

It's at :01. Probably just a few seconds too late from having been a valid unvote.


Unvote


I don't know how it can look worse than this for someone tbh



(im splitting my post into 2 because its about 2 semi different things)

Vote: Monty

[Dobby]

fuck it still didnt include the quoted posts which makes it unreadable, posting it again


So i just ctrl f:ed "mont" in the first dayphase to see if he had written anything, or if anyone else had mentioned him



i'll help benneh and then go afk for the next 24ish hours

v
mont
benneh
ladd

sleep

i don't like ender's way of posting (almost all of his posts are answer to other quotes and in last page he answered newcomb's post which was the last one and then went back to answer cuth's whose post was before and gave me "posting just to post" vibes). Both of these things are >rand w ime

for context:





i'll yolo a sunbae w read (you'll do amazing in champs tho! genuinely)

this is the early ladd readlist (one of his first non rvs posts) that i sussed him because of, it would make sense to include one wolf :P Also considering the later posts about monty its kinda weird. It feels like ladd wants this list to look real? But this is also the only post from monty before that ladd post


Gotta say the Mafia stalker can't expect to get much action in this setup. Like, the only thing it can track is the town sorceror, and there's no stopping the town sorceror's last action on N2 without pushing them D2, and there's little point to that. Watching the target of a sorceror is even more useless, since there's never going to be a strategy in pushing a compulsive suicide bomber.

I'm ready for my vesting.

https://i.imgur.com/EeYtIBY.jpg


This might be the most interesting post of the flipped woofs/monty stuff?


i saw that post and your monty push

you don't really push lhf like you did monty as a villager ime, in fact I think 1 of yours (and visor actually) biggest villa tells is that you tend to see the "what if they are a vilager angle" of the so called easy mislunches, like you are doing with cape for example (regardless of whether or not he is a villager)

you going after monty was spooky, then I saw the other orgers thought he was a wolf too so maybe I was missing some meta but from a quick skim of 2 of his games he seems like a perfectly competent wolf so i dont realy see whats up

but i guess I overstimated how much you believe both your monty wolf read on yrou stuff wrt cuth



yougotus.gif


Winston Hughes how much of the thread had you read when you made this post?



couple of zack's post overnight actually gave me the FEAR

1) calling cuth out for asking too many questions felt level 0

2) the monty push


i actually really liked some of cuth stuff overnight which is incredible cause i usually don't even get what they are saying



this was a real nice thought


like, if theyre teamed, ladd is going for it pretty hard tbh

monty comes into thread and posts a semi jokey vote on monstr, is it just me or does it look like w/w action? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828708&viewfull=1#post2053828708)



ladd
newcomb
montmorency

all of these are good targets


Voting Newcomb is a dumb idea katze. Vote Ender instead.

there are waaaaall catchup posts like this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829142&viewfull=1#post2053829142), he is kinda pushing ender a bit, but mentions in the other direction are few/non-existent.


and okay this is (i think) the only "response" or mention of monty (and its got ladd + monstr) (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828882&viewfull=1#post2053828882) from ender's posts and im not sure its relevant but i want it to be

ladd asks about monty here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828833&viewfull=1#post2053828833), kinda leaves it up to others to help him make an opinion on him. Not sure if it says anything, i might just be seeing what i want to see rn.



tldr and main conclusions:

the monstr interaction really looks like it could be w/w

on top of that, ladd gave monty a townread early in the first quoted post here, and proceeded to... this sentence


you going after monty was spooky, then I saw the other orgers thought he was a wolf too so maybe I was missing some meta but from a quick skim of 2 of his games he seems like a perfectly competent wolf so i dont realy see whats up


this just.. doesn't make sense? paraphrased the way i read it it says "people who know him well thought he was wolf so i read his previous games and he is a good wolf, so i dont see why you would wolfread him"

like

if you see someone is a good wolf, and people who know them well wolfread them

how does that land in a townread from you, and a shield?



I mean, it mostly looks bad for ladd (lol), but if i turn it around i think yes it can be to put a shield up on a townie that a lot of people push
but it could definitely also be about a teammate that he shields and has a read that he wants cred for when they get ml'ed

and combined with the early readslist post i think

it's just monty lol

[Raskolnikov]

well yeah, it could be Monty too. Just make sure if/when he flips villa and one of Benneh/me is dead, you turbo Cuth.

[Raskolnikov]

@HK: I saw your posts, tx :D

I have a coffee wolf tell? or is it just a general (dumb) tell you use to j/poke around?

[Dobby]

well yeah, it could be Monty too. Just make sure if/when he flips villa and one of Benneh/me is dead, you turbo Cuth.

Yeah it'll take a lot for me to not go cuth there but I don't want to go near town leader role and try to bruteforce it, I'd rather try that with monty and then go sorry I'm bad at mafia someone else take the lead

I just want to be the one fluffposting and reacting to every post in the game and top posting for once, I don't think I've ever ended up as top poster so that's my secret goal for this game

/s for legal reasons


Or is it

[Raskolnikov]

Dobby: "to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town"

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/image.php?u=1388&dateline=1644229047

[Dobby]

Dobby: "to be clear im not defending cuth (anymore) but thats mainly or only because or bennehs case and 0% because of rasks stuff, if anything rasks stuff make me feel better about cuth being town"

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/image.php?u=1388&dateline=1644229047

Rekt tbh

(You did play some part in it but you said I was bad at zhitposting so you won't get cred)

[Raskolnikov]

why I would go Cuth over Monty today? Because Monty feels too ez

[Raskolnikov]

also cape forgetting rask prob means they aren't w/w?

:curtain:


Rask is Winston, one of my top wolves...

yeah?

Dobby (rofl)

[Cape90]

lol dont go rask

Monty/katze/Cuth

final answer

[Dobby]

Dobby (rofl)

That's kind of cute

[Dobby]

lol dont go rask

Monty/katze/Cuth

final answer

How did kat end up there? Hasn't that push from kat been a 9neway thing? That was my impression of it but I might be misremembering

[Cuthillius]

lol

I don't think I'm going to defend myself today

if the game's still going tomorrow then sure i can write words but

[Cuthillius]

more from a lack of time than a lack of respect tbc

[katze]

i was doing something and then noted this, ill keep doing that something but i wanted to get this out in a separate post


quoting relevant part of the readslist post from katze



That's pretty quickly followed by this post when i ask if im in her poe





This shift doesn't.... make sense. If it's just a reaction that kat takes two steps back in response to me pushing back/asking why im in poe that leads to the shift it... doesn't make sense for katze, i think? And if it's not as a reaction to my reaction, i still don't understand what would lead to that? I'm not saying it's scummy im just saying it exists and im not sure why

the second half of the 'legacy' post was p rushed and your reply reminded me that i had more reason to townread you than i wrote

but also i'm emphasizing again that i think the wolf is just in cape/monty

like fr

im vaguely caught up and see people are trying to throw out cuth instead and like

what

[hollowkatt]

@HK: I saw your posts, tx :D

I have a coffee wolf tell? or is it just a general (dumb) tell you use to j/poke around?

coffee tell is a universal wolf tell :D
comes from MU (I think)
Mostly I'm joking but if F3 is legit me, you, and someone else I'm gonna look long and hard at you

[Dobby]

the second half of the 'legacy' post was p rushed and your reply reminded me that i had more reason to townread you than i wrote

but also i'm emphasizing again that i think the wolf is just in cape/monty

like fr

im vaguely caught up and see people are trying to throw out cuth instead and like

what

I was more questioning you taking out cuth from your clears tbh in that fashion, rather than your read on me.

I feel better about cape today but I'll save the cuthcapekat stuff til it's actually needed to be looked into

[hollowkatt]

so today we chop monte. If the game doesn't end we look very closely at cuth and cape.
I think Rask, Katze, and Dobby have all written posts/had perspectives that are incredibly difficult to fake as a wolf.

I won't discount their skills here because all three are incredibly accomplished, but I just don't see the wolf being there.

That basically leaves me and neb and obvs I'm not advocating myself as the wolf and if neb is the wolf wtf kind of range does he have. (don't answer that I have enough paranoia in late games already)

[Dobby]

so today we chop monte. If the game doesn't end we look very closely at cuth and cape.
I think Rask, Katze, and Dobby have all written posts/had perspectives that are incredibly difficult to fake as a wolf.

I won't discount their skills here because all three are incredibly accomplished, but I just don't see the wolf being there.

That basically leaves me and neb and obvs I'm not advocating myself as the wolf and if neb is the wolf wtf kind of range does he have. (don't answer that I have enough paranoia in late games already)

I feel like benneh is cleared but im forgetting why he's just considered that, I'm sure it's there somewhere

[katze]

I was more questioning you taking out cuth from your clears tbh in that fashion, rather than your read on me.

wait did i do that

wtf past me LMAO

okay i dont have an answer to that ill assume it was more "hollowkatt should be higher" but

something something grumble grumble "it won't matter because they're all town anyway kill monty"

[katze]

I feel like benneh is cleared but im forgetting why he's just considered that, I'm sure it's there somewhere

hes polarized

not in wolf range

[Dobby]

wait did i do that

wtf past me LMAO

okay i dont have an answer to that ill assume it was more "hollowkatt should be higher" but

something something grumble grumble "it won't matter because they're all town anyway kill monty"

Lmao

[Montmorency]

K I?ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he?ll flip v

im gonna die and you?re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn?t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn?t catch on.

I?ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

We keep returning to how Cuth has genuine bussing equity, but what I don't like about the theory is that it requires Ender-Cuth to have the exact same kind of elaborate distancing show that Ender-ladd participated in just hours prior. Does that happen?

Further, it's very hard for Cuth to justify surviving to F3, which is why I kept saying earlier that the ladd wagon is self-resolving.

Has anyone reviewed Cuth-Ender interactions D2? Or if someone wants to do fresh work, compare his play to the last game in this forum, Mass Effect, with somewhat similar progression to this one: Cuth towned but I tinfoiled him.

Town only has rounds for 4 ousters.

[Montmorency]

What are you all even poasting about though? What's the gist of all these recent walls, that you all continue to suspect each other for murky reasons while there is a classic POE case on exactly one player?

At least reach for untapped reservoirs and ISO Ender D2 rather than skimming EOD1 over and over again.

There is no such thing as an info wagon with one scum left.

[Cuthillius]

What are you all even poasting about though? What's the gist of all these recent walls, that you all continue to suspect each other for murky reasons while there is a classic POE case on exactly one player?

At least reach for untapped reservoirs and ISO Ender D2 rather than skimming EOD1 over and over again.

There is no such thing as an info wagon with one scum left.

ender d2 gameplan is likely a) try to ingratiate me and b) antispew a fair bit just to make sure

[Cuthillius]

like given the flips and the way the wolfteam seems to have been d1 is by far the most informative period and anything after there gets a lot harder to read

i don't think focusing primarily on the first phase is at all a bad idea esp since it came very close to just being absolutely fine for wolves (under pressure, but not that clarified)

[Raskolnikov]

coffee tell is a universal wolf tell :D
comes from MU (I think)
Mostly I'm joking but if F3 is legit me, you, and someone else I'm gonna look long and hard at you

Read two pages after post 583 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828865&viewfull=1#post2053828865). You will understand I am not going to F3. (unless you are the wolf :curtain:)

[hollowkatt]

Read two pages after post 583 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828865&viewfull=1#post2053828865). You will understand I am not going to F3. (unless you are the wolf :curtain:)

not only would I take you to F3 I would also dunk on you. But not this game my friend.

anyways, I'm ending on vote: Monte. Might be here for EOD might not

[Montmorency]

OK, so ISO D2 it is. I'll do more if I feel like it, but the first hours of SOD 2 are Cuth defending cape and ender while being weird about bussing (I never said he bussed) and Ender probably spewing Rask town by calling him a D1 busser without calling him a D1 busser.


monty if you think i bus there i have no words for you lol

yeah i think if it was a goon flip sure

but losing sorceror esp when a strong player is

going beyond like bussing in order to clear with that degree of things being up in the air into just actively antiwincon territory

i think i would feel more strongly about this if ladd ever had much traction, but he really didn't for the most part

yeah i think if it was a goon flip sure

but losing sorceror esp when a strong player is

going beyond like bussing in order to clear with that degree of things being up in the air into just actively antiwincon territory

i think i would feel more strongly about this if ladd ever had much traction, but he really didn't for the most part


I feel like you have a lot of experience with ladd in turbos and such to where you would easily pick up when ladd is mafia. Heck, even I had my suspicions there, though I did express I wasn't confident in that admittedly.

this would be a pretty ballsy thing to say as a wolf here


Someone get Ender on the phone to call this post wolfy for faking a simple mistake because apparently that's something wolves do a lot.

this is unnecessary

vote: montmorency

sum'n sum'n


I don't remember much of the time I've seen Rask wolf but he's usually a sideways busser. Like he'll never be the primary push on a partner.

He can bus tho.

[Raskolnikov]

Iirc I wolfed exactly one game against Ender on the giraffe boards. We swept. D1 busser lolz

[katze]

oh btw im prob gonna be preoccupied playing new DRG update so uhh

yeah i dont intend on doing much

however i will hardclaim town

[Raskolnikov]

OK EOD is 2 am my time, while I am waking up at 5 am (business trip). So I am prolly not attending EOD.

vote: Monty

voting here since that's consensus it seems. Hopefully you will all lol at me in postgame while I sleep. In case you don't, we are talking about Cuth tmr.

[hollowkatt]

OK EOD is 2 am my time, while I am waking up at 5 am (business trip). So I am prolly not attending EOD.

vote: Monty

voting here since that's consensus it seems. Hopefully you will all lol at me in postgame while I sleep. In case you don't, we are talking about Cuth tmr.

gl with the business trip Rask. be safe!

[Cape90]

OK, so ISO D2 it is. I'll do more if I feel like it, but the first hours of SOD 2 are Cuth defending cape and ender while being weird about bussing (I never said he bussed) and Ender probably spewing Rask town by calling him a D1 busser without calling him a D1 busser.

cant believe with 1 mafia left im mafia with cuth

[Cape90]

I really don't think it's anything but Monty, it just looks like he's looking for popular places to shoot his shot at.

[nebjiamn]

vote: montmorency

gg all, was fun

[Visor]

Players Votes

Montmorency 8 (Sleep, Dobby, Cuthillius, Cape90, katze, hollowkatt, Raskolnikov, nebjiamn)
katze 1 (Montmorency)

[Montmorency]

cant believe with 1 mafia left im mafia with cuth

I'd count misrepresenting me against you normally, but not when the entire list is doing it.

[Cape90]

I'd count misrepresenting me against you normally, but not when the entire list is doing it.

it more had to do with the detail that cuth was defending me/ender

I know that's not the point you were actually getting at

[Montmorency]

it more had to do with the detail that cuth was defending me/ender

I know that's not the point you were actually getting at

Then what were you trying to say?


it just looks like he's looking for popular places to shoot his shot at.

It sounds like you were saying that I tried to partner you and cuth in order to... POE both you and Cuth I guess? Even though I've been consistent all day?

I initiated the summary of D2, the first hours (katze wasn't included as she had no notable content). If y'all want to succeed, might best to finish it.

[Cuthillius]

lol us

(for the future)

[Dobby]

hey cuth i think i saved you for today


(lets pretend he was in danger tbh)

[katze]

Players Votes

Montmorency 8 (Sleep, Dobby, Cuthillius, Cape90, katze, hollowkatt, Raskolnikov, nebjiamn)
katze 1 (Montmorency)

selfvote you coward

[katze]

i forgot if EoD was in 1 hour or two

either way


hey cuth i think i saved you for today


(lets pretend he was in danger tbh)

wtf so did i

(lolus if he's the last wolf)

[Dobby]

i forgot if EoD was in 1 hour or two

either way



wtf so did i

(lolus if he's the last wolf)

i only mean it if he isnt the last wolf

[hollowkatt]

we'll let Dobby think it was him :D

[Cape90]

Then what were you trying to say?



It sounds like you were saying that I tried to partner you and cuth in order to... POE both you and Cuth I guess? Even though I've been consistent all day?

I initiated the summary of D2, the first hours (katze wasn't included as she had no notable content). If y'all want to succeed, might best to finish it.

I was mainly thinking about the Cuth thing since it has become a point of discussion because of Rask.

I wasn't talking specifically about myself

[katze]

i only mean it if he isnt the last wolf

i especially mean it if he's the last wolf because it's funnier

[Sleep]

i am here

i have had a busy day

[hollowkatt]

i am here

i have had a busy day

https://i.imgur.com/X6UpLbK.png

[katze]

https://i.imgur.com/zTMguHC.jpeg

is eod 30m or 1h30m

[Dobby]

i especially mean it if he's the last wolf because it's funnier

rude


I was mainly thinking about the Cuth thing since it has become a point of discussion because of Rask.

I wasn't talking specifically about myself

i think it was originally a benneh thing before rask started isoing cuth? rask was just more passionate about it

[Dobby]

https://i.imgur.com/zTMguHC.jpeg

is eod 30m or 1h30m

neither

its in 23 mins :verycool:

[katze]

neither

its in 23 mins :verycool:

it took me 7 minutes to hit reply (i was frozen) so it was 30 when i typed it

(ty)

ill be... kinda around until eod then but probably mostly just to shitpost ngl

[katze]

immensely disappointed about the fact monty isn't selfvoting for the peak 9/9 wagon

ive never lost a game where a player selfvotes to ensure their wagon is the entire lobby

[nebjiamn]

glad we wasted 48 hours following some dead ass villagers who don't know shit just to mislunch a guy on his native forum because we can't read his playstyle well



:paincat:

[Cuthillius]

hey cuth i think i saved you for today


(lets pretend he was in danger tbh)

thanks much appreciation tbh

i'll give you an extra shoutout after i win <3

[katze]

glad we wasted 48 hours following some dead ass villagers who don't know shit just to mislunch a guy on his native forum because we can't read his playstyle well



:paincat:

do you feel that strongly about it being cuth????

[nebjiamn]

katze lead eod

zack v
idk rest

i CC

cuth w

I've studied hundreds of cases and someone who is innocent never "thinks" they are.

i made an account on EM about 12months ago and have played a few games there. ive been surprised at the skill level tbh and had no fun. its beena lacklustre journey but now my mains gonna get deleted lol

[nebjiamn]

do you feel that strongly about it being cuth????
no

i am just having a breakdown

[katze]

i cc your cc

[katze]

no

i am just having a breakdown

oh

if it's serious then pretend i posted a ghosthug if it's not then skill issue

[nebjiamn]

plus the more i play this up the more fun it is after the game if mont flips w

generating future content

[Dobby]

benneh w

[Montmorency]

immensely disappointed about the fact monty isn't selfvoting for the peak 9/9 wagon

ive never lost a game where a player selfvotes to ensure their wagon is the entire lobby

This is foreshadowing.

https://i.imgur.com/V7otd6j.jpg


glad we wasted 48 hours following some dead ass villagers who don't know shit just to mislunch a guy on his native forum because we can't read his playstyle well

:paincat:

Shit, but then I'll be a deadass villager not to follow.

Let the record show I have been wagoned 90% for voting scum, getting consistently townspewed by scum, and for OMGUSing a typical POE in D2. :freak:


thanks much appreciation tbh

i'll give you an extra shoutout after i win <3

Let's not to do lolcatting just yet; my efforts have only turned suspicion from katze onto you.




My final answer is katze; I shan't afford another. ggwp

[nebjiamn]

​vote: katze

[hollowkatt]

​vote: katze

dammit neb, that was our surprise tool that will come in handy later

[Visor]

Players Votes

Montmorency 7 (Sleep, Dobby, Cuthillius, Cape90, katze, hollowkatt, Raskolnikov)
katze 2 (Montmorency, nebjiamn)


2746

[katze]

walterwhitefallingover.gif

[Sleep]

sorry if its wrong but atp im just committed to following zack/newcomb

will towncase self if necessary down the line