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oh come on it's HK
"at risk". Such partner
Vote: Hollowkatt
Credits to Sleep for having me find that.
Listen, I know that's kinda a lazy answer, but I think it's the right one, and I believe in final 3 making that choice
wat
good post and im fully convinced now
#Polarized
yeah i felt like with what i did yesterday i didnt want to keep readng the same stuff over and over. and i said i was doing stuff yesterday evening, and have been out today as well until now. so yeah if you want to call that static then sure, but its static after i put a ton of effort in, and not just static but dont have much to back it up with, there's a significant different there imo.
never accused you of suspecting me for no reason, that's different from what I have been implying with static
...weh
i have opinions on capes posting but i might just be coping
cape can you elaborate on this post a bit, wasn't sunya a syn+dunya hydra?
So Sleep feels like they are kinda just in their own world this game which doesn't fit their mafia games I think. That also reminds me of their sunya hydra game thing.
real thing is i was tracking the dobby/hk argument to see how i feel about it and run smack dab into this cape post
which just kinda rubs me wrong in how it feels
thers still stuff that like...i get the feeling a lot of the stuff hk says is done to look towny rather than actually find scum but idk
I think the difference in mafia me making that post vs town me making that post is that mafia me would go off the logic of someone else when I said
I have a feeling mafia is Mont this game. Too many things keep piling up
the too many things piling up, were things that I cited
-Mont soft defending me
-Mont having what looked like w/w interactions
-Mont having other underwhelming walls of quotes followed up by some one liner.
never accused you of suspecting me for no reason, that's different from what I have been implying with static
yes and im saying thats also wrong :P
wasn't sunya a syn+dunya hydra?
nope apparently that's joqiza and gira that makes sense :wowee:
Newcomb? You mean nebjiamn?
You know, I don't actually like this read all that much on EnderWiggin as I feel like what Ender has been doing has been sort of villagery for actually the same reasons why ladd suspects Ender.
I am gonna take a shot in the dark and say that Benneh's read on a person who has only posted once isn't a deep read.
I just am so confused on katze's whole "wall" post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828319&viewfull=1#post2053828319) that it almost looks really wolfy to me. At least I get the wolfy feelings in the first part of the post and especially the last part of the post.
1. I dont see why
2. who is bladescape?
im reading through ender iso and god this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828337&viewfull=1#post2053828337) (link if you want the quotes included
...weh
i have opinions on capes posting but i might just be coping
cape can you elaborate on this post a bit, wasn't sunya a syn+dunya hydra?
Lemme give you a simple one:
-Who was even looking at HK today? Why wouldn't maf!Sleep just go consensus?
BONUS
-The entire wall Sleep made on me day 1 about me was kinda out of nowhere and not really prompted by others, just like this HK sus.
Though right now I am looking through Sleep's logs (which look squeaky from what I have looked at :shrug:)
I only referenced the hydra game https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/33303 game because in terms of Gira!town, this game reminded me the most of this game versus some of the catboi games I have played with em. And I focused on that hydra a lot since I was a bit sus of Gira's posting, not sure why looking back on it lol. The hydra is Gira/joqiza
https://i.imgur.com/u4OsrE7.png
kinda suspicious that you scumread sleep on december of 2021 yet you townread them here. care to explain that progression
(this is how i imagine long phase games)
Lemme give you a simple one:
-Who was even looking at HK today? Why wouldn't maf!Sleep just go consensus?
BONUS
-The entire wall Sleep made on me day 1 about me was kinda out of nowhere and not really prompted by others, just like this HK sus.
Though right now I am looking through Sleep's logs (which look squeaky from what I have looked at :shrug:)
I only referenced the hydra game https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/33303 game because in terms of Gira!town, this game reminded me the most of this game versus some of the catboi games I have played with em. And I focused on that hydra a lot since I was a bit sus of Gira's posting, not sure why looking back on it lol. The hydra is Gira/joqiza
well, if sleep is a wolf then the wall on you D1 was, as newcomb/ladd said, probably just made to look villagery while killing a villager
if he's a villager then, well, it wasnt that wowee
fwiw i think i was the only person coming into today with HK as confident town, aorn im. more hoping it's you than anything else
(i'll read the game overnight if it's not you though)
nope apparently that's joqiza and gira that makes sense :wowee:
yeah he chose it because i had no ideas for names apparently it's a sanskrit word for zero
im reading through ender iso and god this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828337&viewfull=1#post2053828337) (link if you want the quotes included
I interacted with wolves about wolves that I defended :O. I wouldn't make that post as a wolf, but that's also quite unprovable. Also LMAO me with the names in the game dude.
All I will say is ladd's read on ender clearly was TMI while my take wasn't
But just do me a favor while I do college finals and win f3 for me
https://i.imgur.com/u4OsrE7.png
kinda suspicious that you scumread sleep on december of 2021 yet you townread them here. care to explain that progression
(this is how i imagine long phase games)
its actually just like this except the screaming happens over 3 months and by the end everyone desires death
im not gonna lie if you linked me the post dobby linked in isolation i'd say it's >rand to be a completely out of touch villager
so dobby linking it as a slam dunk is kinda weird to me
i should say uhh
i think a lot posts hk made are posts that kind of look like they were made to get townread off? and the solviong content is not that strong. cape feels like he keeps trying to analyze things, oftentimes he goes down dead ends but hes exploring a lot of paths. thats what im getting here
more like
all the time lol
its actually just like this except the screaming happens over 3 months and by the end everyone desires death
so it's a normal mafia game but longer
this doesn't feel right.
stop im trying to ignore the voices telling me to panic
i realize that deviating at the last moment can lead to significant problems and sometimes its better to just stay the course regardless and commit yourself
i am rereading again quickly though
https://i.imgur.com/u4OsrE7.png
kinda suspicious that you scumread sleep on december of 2021 yet you townread them here. care to explain that progression
(this is how i imagine long phase games)
So that was a vote I didn't believe in, but I wanted those stats if I was just wrong on sleep just being town here. Gotta have at least 1 vote on mafia, otherwise, I have not done a good job this game, you know?
im not gonna lie if you linked me the post dobby linked in isolation i'd say it's >rand to be a completely out of touch villager
so dobby linking it as a slam dunk is kinda weird to me
not linking it as a slamdunk, more like "wat"
im reading d1 post by post now, i stoped doing iso becasue its too hard on this site
this is guaranteed to bite me in the ass but katze has too many votes too quickly and therefore is town.
Ender otoh is not.
vote: ender
hk answers about why he scumreads ender, very early into the game
Yeah I can. He feels stilted, like his content is forced, and that he's struggling to get into the groove of the game.
I tend to ego solve and compare what people are doing to what I'd be doing in their positions. This would tangentially apply to cape as well tbh:
If I were a wolf in this player list I'd be extremely concerned with making the towniest posts I could make and trying to fit in with the overall flow of the game so as not to get caught out immediately. Unfortunately when I do that I tend to be really obvs a wolf as I'm basically trying too hard. Ender (and Cape) feel like they're trying too hard.
The downside to ego solving is that other people are not me (I know, this is a shocking revelation) and don't necessarily react to things the same way I would. This isn't stopping me from making the read.
And before someone asks, my "no chop" vote is totally legit. This is a player list I am going to struggle to read and seeing who dies over night if we don't chop anyone might help in solving. Otherwise I'm likely going to just sheep someone I town read that I perceive is smarter than I am, or be on some weird vanity wagon at the end of the day.
So I figured I'd throw out not chopping as an option, see what people think of that, and go from there.
and yeah I'm being serious
monstr quoting 3 sleep posts (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828434&viewfull=1#post2053828434)
Feels off to me
Caveat I don't think I know you that well
This is a very long wall from Sleep about Cape (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828445&viewfull=1#post2053828445), it does feel tunnely though and kinda nai.
i have a really bad read but if it's correct im going to pretend its genius
cape, theres no majority, votes are purely symbolic until the deadline occurs. this is me tracing out a feeling. what happened was i went back and looked at what the dead townies had as poes. i had sort of contemplated just voting katze there, because that was what most of them wanted (and as said idt its you anymore). but dobby raised a good point about how ender spoke to katze. so i went and reread hollowkatt because i felt as though i had ignored him too much, and i didnt like what i saw
So Sleep, what makes you not think it's katze, or more want to go HK over katze?
Yeah. Katze is just town for me. Like in their wolf games there is generally this underlying tone of "I am full of shit with everything I say so here's a lot of jokes, self-votes, and depreciating humor and a handfull of posts that attempt to be solvy" and here basically none of that exists.
I say that in the kindest possible way, not that katze is a full of shit player.
This game katze has been really straightforward with how they're approaching things. Possibly the most straightforward game I've seen them play. There's none of the fiddly bits I have come to associate with a katze wolf game.
I think they're just town.
Newcomb otoh is playing like a wolf. I can't point to anything and yell "smoking gun post here" but overall the tone of their game is very much a "defensive/pocketing" type of tone. Like there's a lot of posts in their ISO that are just aimed at specific people. I find myself wanting to town read newcomb based off of some of them, but sitting back and really looking at them I struggle to justify that feeling.
this was a post i didn't like when i was rring a couple nights ago. the way the reads are explained does not make a lot of sense to m. the newc read is kinda nothingburger
I am really confident in sleep being town
It would be really funny to see sleep as mafia though and have
This has swayed and convinced me.
Vote: Sleep
at the very start of the game on page 1 by a mafia partner if sleep is mafia
:angel::angel:
hk, sunbae
:angel:
sleep, newcomb
:beatnik2:
cuth, csar, dobby, rask
:pimp2:
benneh, ladd, katze, monstr
:pimp2::pimp2:
cape, blade, monty
:pimp2::pimp2::pimp2::pimp2::pimp2:
zack
if the n1 kill was reads related and not sorcerer hunting this one might be of value, imma let you interpret it yourselves tho
I'm going to point out that last time I was actually wolf with you (Hello remember when I literally cased you and got you voted out and I was red?) I was townread and no one thought I was struggling to get into thread.
This honestly feels a VERY weird take on me given that the game I'm talking about was the last time HK and I played together. For him to seriously believe I would struggle to get my groove on as wolf is...
Kinda honestly wolfy.
Ender responding to hollowkatt's case on him. It's one of the things i thougt didnt look like w addressing w, i still think so tbh.
well my first impression was that you were being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian so i'm calling the bluff
now how do i iso on maf cafe :dizzy2:
katze being cheeeky with ender
ok, so what gives then? Why does it seem like this game is harder to get into for you?
If you're villager shitposting and tossing off ideas should be fairly straightforward.
The unspoken part of that read I made on you is that this player list is vastly different than that player list and I also did say I was ego solving there and I would struggle as wolf to get established in this list.
You dumpstered me last game, hard, and of course I'm going to be wary of you in this game because of that.
Go be town and do townie things and I'll call you town. Till then I won't.
this is also part of why i thought the ender hk back and forth is not w/w. It's too.... much, and too in depth for no reason.
ikr, soz.
outside of me who else do you think is sus? maybe we can talk and I'll change my mind.
i guess this could be w/w backing off but i think its just a how-hk-plays-the-game kind of thing?
It's not "never interact with people you wolfread you," that would be silly. It's that I don't find it productive to talk to people who wolfread me, or people I wolfread, about that read.
Like what actual good do you think it's gonna do to try to argue about this specific issue if we happen to be v/v? It would be like that meme of spider man pointing at himself.
My wolfread on you is based on a) me noticing that you were talking about me in a way that looked performative vs. having a specific read or one that seemed inquisitive. I.e. just kind of waving your hand around and going "hey guys newcomb looks wolfy" type posts. And then b) me being generally on the lookout for a wolf to try this kind of thing with me - poking at/around me specifically to get townread. Your treatment of me matched both my loose range of people who might try this, and the lack of depth in the approach to it matched my conception of the commitment someone might have to that kind of play D1.
The problem is, what are you going to say to that that's going to be productive in addressing that? "Nah bro that's not what I'd do as a wolf."? We're not arguing about the base facts of what you did, we'd be arguing about subjective interpretations about it, and what use would that be? You're biased.
And you could pretty much flip everything I just said around for you wolfreading me.
If you want my read on you to evolve and change, just play the game, show me you're invested in it, show me your thought process. If you want to find common ground with me specifically, talk to me about literally anything other than your alignment or mine.
Here, I'll start: right now what I'm considering a pivot point this game is cape vs. sleep. Going through the possible worlds where they're v/v, v/w, w/v, and w/w, what do you think the game looks like in those worlds, does anything really important stand out? Do you think any of those configurations are wildly unlikely?
and here ender is answering katze, just read it. it's just, too much lol. hesnot just having a casual exchange with someone or just planting a read. this is someone trying to justify and explain why their actions arent wolfy, and the difference is that, you dont do the latter with a teammate.
dobby... that last quote is newcomb right?
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:45
BTW a thought I had was that..
When you're the last wolf alive, it's way harder to find anything legit to scumread you for/find you compared to if you are alive with teammates. You basically don't have to fake anything other than on a very very surface level. Also meaning that at this stage, it's easy to find someone's wording not like, 100% making sense or a misuse of a word or whatever, but that kinda shouldn't mean anything really because that applies to everyone allowed in the game. I think at least.
yeah pretty much
Players Votes
Cape90 4 (Dobby, Sleep, katze, hollowkatt)
hollowkatt 1 (Cape90)
believe this is still correct?
:angel::angel:
hk, sunbae
:angel:
sleep, newcomb
:beatnik2:
cuth, csar, dobby, rask
:pimp2:
benneh, ladd, katze, monstr
:pimp2::pimp2:
cape, blade, monty
:pimp2::pimp2::pimp2::pimp2::pimp2:
zack
there is one alive player in every tier :wowee:
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:48
I am literally so confused by this whole thing in the bolded
there's context there you're missing.
Sunbae said "if we flip a townie today I'm vesting dobby".
I said "if you're going to vest dobby if we flip town we should flip me b/c otherwise dobby is going to vest me tomorrow"
The line of thinking being "I know I am town, if dobby gets vested when we flip town we are losing three townies (me, the townie we flip today, and the NK) in exchange for dobby, over the course of two phases"
Therefore, if you're vesting dobby if we flip town flip me so that dobby has to make a different decision.
All of that logic was predicated on sunbae saying "if we flip a townie I am giving dobby the vest".
I don't understand what is hard or complicated about that, nor do I understand why that didn't make sense to anyone who read it, I thought it was bleedingly obvious.
tbh the longer ender goes without bombing the more I town read him
like if I were wolf here with a vest I'd probably thrown down a shitpost or two and then blow up the pr and call it a day
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I WAS RIGHT
anyways GG ender GG sunbae, may DVC be kind to you
kind of a thonk
if the n1 kill was reads related and not sorcerer hunting this one might be of value, imma let you interpret it yourselves tho
Ender responding to hollowkatt's case on him. It's one of the things i thougt didnt look like w addressing w, i still think so tbh.
katze being cheeeky with ender
this is also part of why i thought the ender hk back and forth is not w/w. It's too.... much, and too in depth for no reason.
i guess this could be w/w backing off but i think its just a how-hk-plays-the-game kind of thing?
and here ender is answering katze, just read it. it's just, too much lol. hesnot just having a casual exchange with someone or just planting a read. this is someone trying to justify and explain why their actions arent wolfy, and the difference is that, you dont do the latter with a teammate.
dobby did you quote teh wrong post at the end there
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:49
oh come on it's HK
"at risk". Such partner
Vote: Hollowkatt
Credits to Sleep for having me find that.
Listen, I know that's kinda a lazy answer, but I think it's the right one, and I believe in final 3 making that choice
lol ok
lets play pretend then. I am the chop today and flip town. Who is the wolf?
So Sleep, what makes you not think it's katze, or more want to go HK over katze?
...the thing about how ender spoke to katze like a townie he was manipulating and not like a teammate? i think i quoted some stuff idr
then i reread hks iso and thought it as suspect
maaaaaaaan
i kinda wanna throw the game and do a cfd
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:51
(i'll read the game overnight if it's not you though)
that's more than I'm planning to do
dobby... that last quote is newcomb right?
it is yeah, im stressing trhoguh shit that nobodys going to read anyway sorry
my conclusion is like, im townreading hk more now after the back and forths with ender that dont end, and im townreading katze still if we only look at ender interactions. Wagonomics id say look bad for you as well, good for sleep.
cool I can work with that.
Ok, I think sunbae is town. I think I might be the only person who thinks that but i found their early game posting very free flowing and natural. His early posts regarding the suicide bomber felt townie to me in terms of "lets do something bombastic and then relax in dvc for the rest of the game" vs "do the hard work of solving, staying alive, and pushing people".
I get that can also be read as wolfy, I think it's not though.
I also like, and jibe with, the "shield dobby d1" post he made for basically the reasons he articulated. Dobby can be super strong but also can just kinda fold to early pressure even as town, and if dobby is town he'd be an asset for sure (not like this is saying much, the entire thread is an asset tbh).
even if sunbae is wrong here:
it doesn't mean it's not a town way of thinking about things. If sun was doing hard pushes on cape maybe I'd have a different opinion but this reads like a "hey I noticed a thing, anyone else notice a thing" more than a hard push.
I officially rescind my N0 red on Raskol and want to keep him alive for today. I think he's a super easy push for later today b/c he's not posted and he'll likely struggle to catch up if/when he does start posting, but being absent is not a wolf tell for Raskol.
Being a meme filled pockety jerk is though. Just fyi.
I have no read on Ladd but probably should come up with something. Cuth I think can be town, Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.
this is a pretty cool post from hk. i dont know that id say its ai but its got a lot of info on how he thinks.
yeah to me they read as more forced content than anything else. I'm not sure if that's just me being weird or ender being weird. My discussions with ender though recently have given me more of a good feeling about him than his earlier posting did so maybe call him null/lean town instead of 'lets kill'
idk i dont find it likely that hk and ender are trying to all in distance from early day 1 just like that?
This isn't a real thought it was one post
vote: hollowkat
this was monstr quoting something hk wrote that may or may not be true im not gonna doublecheck
Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.
im not sure the "it was one post" thing is accurate and i dont know what that changes tbh.
where is your wolf agenda so I can tinfoil you in final 3? ~:confused: :hide: :bounce:
true there is this post by sleep
lmao
apparently hollowkatt and i have become a hydra
rask
dobby
cape
hk
katze
cuth
sleep
dobby did you quote teh wrong post at the end there
yes i did, ive ben copying and opening a new text box and pasting and then copying everything and pasting into a new one, idk what i was supposed to quote tbqh just forget it
or its the same pfp thing that got me tbh
lol ok
lets play pretend then. I am the chop today and flip town. Who is the wolf?
I would probs say katze
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:53
stop im trying to ignore the voices telling me to panic
25485
ugh, this wolf is deep but it's obviously katze or HK
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:54
i have a really bad read but if it's correct im going to pretend its genius
is the idea flashwagon sleep?
is the idea flashwagon sleep?
i actually dont remember what that read was anymore so i'll pretend it was genius and lost to time
i like winston a bit on general vibes and on some of his poking about my slot. its light but i'm ok with it
i think cape's inclusion of winston as one of his strongest w reads without justification is another thing pinging me about cape. the csargo read already seems light but i feel like winston is a slot i think wolves would probably try to blithely push a bit in this game state, almost irrelevant of winston's actual alignmentbut especially if he's a villager. Cape90 if you could expand on why winston is your next biggest w read after csargo that would be appreciated
cause i'm a loser--not particularly ordered within tiers:
hollowkatt
Sunbae
Sleep
zack
katze
Ladd
Winston Hughes
cuthillius
Raskolnikov
Csargo
roro__b
monstrbro
Newcomb
EnderWiggin
Cape90
Montmorency
poretty cool list benneh
Caught up.
- There's approximately zero chance I spend time writing a wall post about my thoughts on the Cuth/Monstr thing after already admitting that it was messed up on my end and retracting. You are legally allowed to wolf read me for not doing it. Nobody will stop you. I will silently judge you by thinking "lazy read" if you do though. Do you really want that? It sounds devastating.
- It seems the people with a lot of experience with Mont have them as a wolf so I guess I will as well. It also excites me that my pew pew read of Cape/Mont w/w could be the case still.
- I kinda think Ladd is a wolf but I will begrudgingly refrain from doing anything about it because the one thing I'm pretty good at concerning werewolf is understanding my place in a threadstate and I know barking up that tree with just get me scoffed at currently. I don't think his approach to me - notably saying I've been so non-committal that it's wolfy because I did it 6 years ago once - is reasonable. On either front. The "good read if it's an accurate representation" front and the "accurate representation of my play so far this game" front. I feel like I've been pretty open about my feelings on people and, quite frankly, feel like I'm one of the people that's been most straight forward about their reads and why they have them (outside of the cuth/monstr thing).
- I think both Newc and Zack are villagers getting pocketed by Ladd. I think the way they've handled this game day is in line with my feelings of villager them. Newcomb's post asking Katze about Cape/Sleep being the main reason there.
- I think Neb commenting about me leaving them off my villa list only to learn what their name was in this game was really funny. I'm curious on their thoughts on roro at the present because I feel like that's just kinda been a spot that's been glossed over mostly.
- I'm not really sure what to make of Ender's switch on me. I don't really know what the big deal is to admit an error? Seems pretty straightforward to me and villagy to just say oops and move on instead of spending a bunch of time trying to get bogged down in long wall posts explaining some read. I know HollowKatt has been pretty skeptical due to previous experiences of Ender crushing them or something so I guess that's gotten me a bit more concerned but I still think it's been fine posting. Kinda vibed with "i thought i was funny" even if it should be nai. But similar to mont, there's people with more experience with ender than i who find them wolfy so I'll tab that away for later.
- On a similar front, I have no idea why Zack is so hung up on my post saying I liked the role Visor came up with and thought it was hilarious. Me of all people will be thrilled to pew pew into someone, you know this. I think his handling of it is villagery, just ... incorrect.
- I'd be lying if I didn't say I've been getting an uneasy feeling about HK lately. Can't really place why. Something about the way they've just sounded confused about why people are wolf reading me, asking for explanations, getting none, and then just throwing me at the top of the list has me skeptical. Like a "shouldn't hk be a bit more hesitant with me" thing. With that said, I think I'm just in a weird place in the gamestate where I've been unable to really get reads on things outside of interactions with myself on a lot of people, and im notoriously easy to get turned around on things like this. Earlier in the day phase I thought HK was super towny for believing the things they said so I'm going to try and squash that unease for the rest of the day.
- Katze is cool. Dont really vibe with their newcomb wolf read (i kinda think Ladd spewed newcomb villa if wolf or has a really good read and called newcomb obvious villa if villa). Posting seems reasonable though.
- Idk, still kinda think Cape is a wolf but I'm trying to give my boy zack some credit on a strong villa read there and giving it some space. I don't mind letting it go for now.
- I should have a better read on Monstr but I don't. The selfish read is "calling me town because as a wolf I'd be burying someone" makes sense for their understanding of my game.
- I feel like Cs/Winston are people I should have a better idea on but they are pretty much in my null pile. Really liked the "wife stopped and said 'you're playing that game again aren't you'" post for humor but nothing alignment indicative for either afaik.
think I'm just gonna Vote: Monty for now
Oh yeah, Sleep seems totally towny. Knew I forgot one
sunbae, can you explain what your thoughts on the cuth/monstr thing were even if you threw them away?
i felt better about this game when I went to sleep
ladd
newcomb
katze
HK
Cuth
cape
Sunbae
Benneh
Zack
i like this more probably tho i kinda feel the #d1alliancetier has a wolf
i don't really like sleep posts anymore, he kinda feels like a tryhard wolf who found an easy villager to bury and look villagery with
i'll be back for a pop in before EoD
#VC
hmmm
not actually here
but if I am wolf, this is a pretty peculiar place to place me on this list of "villas"
I know that ladd also placed themselves oddly here, but like
why would all the above be town and then mafia down below?
Augh WIFOM argument i know
im staying the course
dosent feel right in my heart but would rather figure it in f3 if so
i keep typing up an unvote post but i dont know where i'd move my vote
im not gonna have time for more
if i do a prio order based on what i have right this moment id say cape -> katze -> sleep -> hk still
the hk read is mainly based on the ender interactions and if i had time to read more of hk i mightve placed him much lower.
im staying the course
dosent feel right in my heart but would rather figure it in f3 if so
this genuinely feels right as opposed to previous yoinks and if its not right we just confirm what we all knew, that im bad at this game
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 00:59
I would probs say katze
interesting
pls be mafika cape i dont want t obe in f3
soz if wrong cape buddy
if it is ill do my best
hollowkatt
05-05-2022, 01:00
ugh, this wolf is deep but it's obviously katze or HK
so from your perspective it's chop HK today and if that's wrong chop Katze in F3 yeah?
Anyway, I guess I say good luck town, I could guess who is dying already, but im sure so can many others.
I suppose this is where I depart, mostly I think it's HK because... who has been actually working and putting out content more then HK? Oh literally everybody? Oh even myself??? wowee
such amazing reads have caught cuth and mont, i know god bless me. LMAO
can wolves just like, be obvious in final 3 for me, that's my only request, just signal to me
Anyway, I guess I say good luck town, I could guess who is dying already, but im sure so can many others.
I suppose this is where I depart, mostly I think it's HK because... who has been actually working and putting out content more then HK? Oh literally everybody? Oh even myself??? wowee
such amazing reads have caught cuth and mont, i know god bless me. LMAO
can wolves just like, be obvious in final 3 for me, that's my only request, just signal to me
vote:hk
sorry if wrong cape, good effort tbh
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa come on
DAY IS OVER
Stop posting.
Players Votes
Cape90 3 (Dobby, Sleep, hollowkatt)
hollowkatt 2 (Cape90, katze)
5 mins for corrections
Cape90 has died. They were Vanilla Town.
Night ends 5pm American Eastern on the 5th of May.
Alive: (4/17)
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
17. hollowkatt
Dead: (13/17)
4. Ladd, Mafia N3 Sorcerer, died D1.
5. Winston Hughes, Vanilla Town, killed N1.
8. Csargo, Vanilla Town, detonated D2.
13. monstrbro Dolby, replaced after EOD1, Mafia Goon, exploded D2.
7. Newcomb, Vanilla Town, died D2.
1. zack, Town Backup, killed N2.
9. EnderWiggin, Mafia Goon, detonated D3.
10. Sunbae, Town Sorcerer, exploded D3.
11. Montmorency, Vanilla Town, died D3.
2. nebjiamn, Vanilla Town, killed N3.
3. Cuthillius, Vanilla Town, died D4.
6. Raskolnikov, Vanilla Town, killed N4.
16. Cape90, Vanilla Town, died D5.
Dobby
katze
Sleep
hollowkatt
Night ends EARLY at 5pm - I won't be around at the usual time, so I'll need night orders in before 5pm.
DO NOT FORGET, do not discuss this etc, etc, etc.
sorry, just a fact of life.
Sorry all, I didn't expect to be sick too.
Dobby has died, he was vanilla town.
Day ends May 7th, 8pm.
You may post etc
as expected
hi
don't snap vote before everyone has had a chance to talk
i'll be around for a while. have thoughts.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 00:59
what's up my dudes lets do this thing!
First off, dobby being dead gives me The Big Sad(tm)
second of all I expected katze to die for reasons I can't articulate really.
will be here in more capacity later, finishing a game
was hoping to die but im not dumb wowee
what's up my dudes lets do this thing!
First off, dobby being dead gives me The Big Sad(tm)
second of all I expected katze to die for reasons I can't articulate really.
you expected me to die?
Q: are there locked votes
A: no
There's no majority and no locked votes, day ends when I said it does
lol haha i was wondering
that's fun
i was hoping to vote early and get it resolved sooner, because despite the fact that i have forced myself to take it easy i would prefer to avoid the anxiety of waiting for a resolution
also means we dont get confirmation one way or the other for a clear
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:06
you expected me to die?
yee
I expected dobby was the last wolf.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:07
Q: are there locked votes
A: no
There's no majority and no locked votes, day ends when I said it does
ngl I hate you a lot
nothing personal though
Q: are there locked votes
A: no
There's no majority and no locked votes, day ends when I said it does
this angers the katze
yee
I expected dobby was the last wolf.
huh
i thought his reaction to me voting you at the last second of D5 was probably just real
huh
i thought his reaction to me voting you at the last second of D5 was probably just real
penny for your thoughts?
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:14
huh
i thought his reaction to me voting you at the last second of D5 was probably just real
probably.
otoh I think it's pretty obvs I'm hard cleared now. Both the people voting for me at the end of the day are here, with me. My biggest defender in the thread is dead. Pretty much spewed.
probably.
otoh I think it's pretty obvs I'm hard cleared now. Both the people voting for me at the end of the day are here, with me. My biggest defender in the thread is dead. Pretty much spewed.
don't tell me you're serious
penny for your thoughts?
"pain"
if you're asking me who i think the wolf is i'm leaning you but i'm not going to pretend i have any confidence in it as of now
given we're going to be here a while i'll probably continue rereading the entire game and come to some conclusion over the next day or so
also i wasnt voting u end of day, cape was
probably.
otoh I think it's pretty obvs I'm hard cleared now. Both the people voting for me at the end of the day are here, with me. My biggest defender in the thread is dead. Pretty much spewed.
:really:
"pain"
if you're asking me who i think the wolf is i'm leaning you but i'm not going to pretend i have any confidence in it as of now
given we're going to be here a while i'll probably continue rereading the entire game and come to some conclusion over the next day or so
that's unfortunate
my plan coming into the day was to suss out people's feelings, and if neither of you were willing to give me hammer i would vote hk early. my mind is more or less settled on that after what i had read yesterday and my inclination is not to second guess.
with no majority a wrench is thrown in that, obviously, but i have little reason to endlessly reread and psych myself out
fwiw in almost every (non-turbo) lylo situation i have entered in the last year my initial instinct was correct and most of the time i talked myself out of that read and lost, so that is my erspective here
i think you kind of know i have a hangup with these situations based on turbos though
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:19
don't tell me you're serious
deadly
vote: hollowkatt
no risk so might as well make it official
that's unfortunate
my plan coming into the day was to suss out people's feelings, and if neither of you were willing to give me hammer i would vote hk early. my mind is more or less settled on that after what i had read yesterday and my inclination is not to second guess.
with no majority a wrench is thrown in that, obviously, but i have little reason to endlessly reread and psych myself out
lmao im glad you revealed as gira and didn't let me continue to think you were hally
also uh. i was also going to ask for hammer but i expected to be forced to vote first and it made the night phase feel like it took an extra 3 hours
wait what do you mean it literally did
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:20
also i wasnt voting u end of day, cape was
oh right, my bad. For some reason I had it in my mind as the two of you.
Ok, in that case.... it's you
also I'm not doing any back reading. I'm playing today like it's D1 of a 3 player game.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:21
vote: hollowkatt
no risk so might as well make it official
cool
vote: sleep
i instinctively typed "acknowledged" before remembering that this means nothing for my alignment
shame
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:22
I have never won F3 as town before
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:24
i've done it a few times
I feel like being town in F3 is vastly more stressful than being wolf in F(x) of any flavor
i think this is actually only my 2nd F3 i was totally bullshitting my voting-in-F3 accuracy (although it is 100%, but that game was 2 years ago)
uhm
i miss dobby
oh i guess ive been in F3 as mafia but that F3 only lasted a few hours and i didnt even get to vote in it because a villager accidentally selfhammered after being voted by the other villager
i instinctively typed "acknowledged" before remembering that this means nothing for my alignment
shame
anyway if you boomed me whatever and its on me for not listening to the screams of the dead players calling for your head
i think as mafia i very easily could have pivoted onto hk last eod and that saves cape which puts me in a game winning situation given he was hard townreading me
on me for being a lamer and not following through but i let myself be cowed
regardless my instincts yesterday was that the interactions hk was getting cleared off were weak and that he had spent significant portions of the game spinning his wheels rather than meaningfully attempting to find the last mafia. that was my impression on my iso skim of him. ive seen better reasons to townread you
oh i guess ive been in F3 as mafia but that F3 only lasted a few hours and i didnt even get to vote in it because a villager accidentally selfhammered after being voted by the other villager
i was like wut for a minute before i remembered it was alexa in the champs f3 and not you
Sleep hollowkatt
what do you feel has been the best part of your game?
what do you regret the most this game?
i dont know if this would be meaningfull convincing at all but this isnt really how id approach f3 as mafia
anyway if you boomed me whatever and its on me for not listening to the screams of the dead players calling for your head
i think as mafia i very easily could have pivoted onto hk last eod and that saves cape which puts me in a game winning situation given he was hard townreading me
on me for being a lamer and not following through but i let myself be cowed
regardless my instincts yesterday was that the interactions hk was getting cleared off were weak and that he had spent significant portions of the game spinning his wheels rather than meaningfully attempting to find the last mafia. that was my impression on my iso skim of him. ive seen better reasons to townread you
thing is like
my vote on cape was super super last second and dobby/HK were probably never going to swap
so like, if you're maf then you probably didn't do anything because you didn't think it'd pan out? thats how i see it
i dont know if this would be meaningfull convincing at all but this isnt really how id approach f3 as mafia
how do you think you'd approach this F3 as mafia
cause this post on its own does nothing :p
Sleep hollowkatt
what do you feel has been the best part of your game?
what do you regret the most this game?
i guess the bset part has just been...just maintaining my effort and WIM? sometimes i struggle in games to maintain enthusiasm but i feel i have been consistent this game despite being hugely distracted in the middle of it
i mean, mostly my reads have not been very good. i think all 3 previous chops were lazy on my part and i should have played better. i caught essentially 0 mafia this game. i always join these invitational type player games thinking im going to do etter this time and work hard and ill be smart and have good reads and prove myself. and then i get shithoused and reminded i'm basically an ordinary player who is probably =rand. so thats frustrating ebecause i dont think it was a very good game on my part. even when i did come around to correctly townreading someone i was too cowed by the other players to be vocal about it. its just a reminder of hwhere im at, but im trying not to engage in excessive self-flagellation over that anymore. (i have thoughts on the limits of read rate but dont really wanna get into that here)
i dunno
i guess i wish i hadnt backed down on cape? my other wrong reads it was too hard for me to find an alternative but with cape i had the correct read and let dobby fight me out of it
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:44
Sleep hollowkatt
what do you feel has been the best part of your game?
what do you regret the most this game?
I think my best part was D1 when I had the reads on Ender and Monstr. Since then I have epically fallen off a cliff and my reads have plummeted.
I feel like the engagement I had with dobby was probably my most villagery work in terms of actually finding common ground, understanding why I was being suspected, and showing dobby how he could have been wrong.
I also enjoyed susing on Raskol even if most of that was shitposting.
As far as regrets, not doing more "homework" and trying to fly by the seat of my pants the last couple of days. I really thought Cape was going to be a hit and end the game. I haven't done much due diligence with regards to Sleep.
I think the most important day is D1, then D2. By D3 we were looking for the metaphorical needle in the haystack because we were down to 1 wolf left and far too many villagers.
I find things are easier / become more obvs as the game naturally dwindles down and with three wolves dying in the first three days that has given the last wolf a lot of wiggle room in terms of "just be more town than 1 other person". They don't even have to be particularly deep because again the only day we really have associations from is D1 and part of D2 but Dolby blew up early and Ender lolcatted till he blew up.
how do you think you'd approach this F3 as mafia
cause this post on its own does nothing :p
mmmf okay
so like the approach ive had, if im not in a confirmed cross going into the day, is that i basically fencesit as hard as possile and dither my time away. the clock is ur ally as mafia. people are naturally hesitant to make a decision and under time pressure they are mioe likely to make a mistake. throwing down the gauntlet in a 1v1 means i lose a vote from someone who could have given me the win. this is especialy true when ypuve been claiming to be townreading hk for a while - eod vote yesterday notwithstanding given it was the only counterwagon available
in general in f3 the bet way to win, if you have to give up hammer, is to give it up to the person most likely to vote wrong. (i made a mistake in a turbo giving it to benneh over IH because i had locked myself into pushing IH). in this situation with you coming out set against me i probably take my chances and just vote you and let hk hammer
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:49
how do you think you'd approach this F3 as mafia
cause this post on its own does nothing :p
The two times I've been in F(x) I bullied someone into voting town. Syn voting Dizzy in bluey on TS and Cornflower voting Inconquerable when I was wolfing with Mistyx in champs.
I tried the same tactic in a game on SC2mafia in a deck mafia game guillo hosted over there. Got 1 person to vote town but couldn't get a second, then the two people who weren't voting town voted me (it was F4 and sleep wasn't allowed) and the guy I'd gotten to vote wrong swapped.
Anyways, I typically play wolf like I play Dark Souls, Big Bonk style, not so much finesse.
nod nod
again, to both of you:
how confident are you that i am town?
how confident are you that the other person is a wolf?
have either of you ever been in a spot like this? i have but i play a lot of mafia
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:55
mmmf okay
so like the approach ive had, if im not in a confirmed cross going into the day, is that i basically fencesit as hard as possile and dither my time away. the clock is ur ally as mafia. people are naturally hesitant to make a decision and under time pressure they are mioe likely to make a mistake. throwing down the gauntlet in a 1v1 means i lose a vote from someone who could have given me the win. this is especialy true when ypuve been claiming to be townreading hk for a while - eod vote yesterday notwithstanding given it was the only counterwagon available
in general in f3 the bet way to win, if you have to give up hammer, is to give it up to the person most likely to vote wrong. (i made a mistake in a turbo giving it to benneh over IH because i had locked myself into pushing IH). in this situation with you coming out set against me i probably take my chances and just vote you and let hk hammer
That makes sense in a game where Hammer and Locked Votes are a thing. Given though that it's not I think it would be in your best interest as wolf to continue to hammer HK wolfing, try to get me in compromised positions, and work to maintain that till the deadline. I think that works for a couple reasons and the biggest one being solving fatigue. I remember a MU game where town lost to Dya, Zone, Ephemeral when Dya and Zone were the last two wolves alive b/c Dya buried myself, visor, and... fatmo? in wall after wall for a gameday and a half to force that fatigue in.
The problem with that strategy is that you also run into wolfing fatigue where you've got to make sure that you continue to make sense and appear more town than the person you're trying to get chopped.
Another reason that works is the longer you dogpile the same person the more likely they are to start experiencing tilt which can be taken advantage of again to further indicate they're wolfing. It's a fine line to walk though because you want your "victim" to be on the back foot but you don't want to actually induce real tilt b/c that most often is townie when it happens.
You want unsettled and nervous, not "rager"
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:56
nod nod
again, to both of you:
how confident are you that i am town?
how confident are you that the other person is a wolf?
none confidence with left tinfoil
have either of you ever been in a spot like this? i have but i play a lot of mafia
by "spot like this" do you mean F3
cause yeah but if you want me to link the game you're gonna have to sieve through a really hard to navigate archive site and it's like, my 5th game literally ever. would say it's not super representative of my play even though i did lolcat and openwolf in that F3 (yes i was town) (yes i got the hammer) (dont ask questions)
nod nod
again, to both of you:
how confident are you that i am town?
how confident are you that the other person is a wolf?
about 80-20, i'd say? enough that i would've been willing to bet the game on it a while ago
the way hk has playing doesnt really make sense to me as town although im going to research to see if im just flat-out missing something here in terms of playstyle
i mostly found the idea that you were unpaired with ender/ladd persuasive while i thought hollowkatts interactions with ender looked more like scum theater to me - call each other wolfy then back off for a bit
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:57
have either of you ever been in a spot like this? i have but i play a lot of mafia
exactly once tbh.
I was town on my home site, long fought game, down to three people left, I wanted the hammer, day deadline was like 96 hours or something like that, and we danced for literally days before I got it wrong.
by "spot like this" do you mean F3
cause yeah but if you want me to link the game you're gonna have to sieve through a really hard to navigate archive site and it's like, my 5th game literally ever. would say it's not super representative of my play even though i did lolcat and openwolf in that F3 (yes i was town) (yes i got the hammer) (dont ask questions)
if you dont think its representative of where youre at as a player anymore then i dont need to see it because it wont be useful, altho id look at any lylo situation
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 01:59
anyways, I'm going to be spending time re-reading D1 again. Tag me if there's anything specific you want to talk about.
if you dont think its representative of where youre at as a player anymore then i dont need to see it because it wont be useful, altho id look at any lylo situation
https://fol-archive.netlify.app/t/vfm-mountainous-15er-town-wins/79786!page=257.html
the abovementioned towngame if you realllly care (its a pretty funny read tbh)
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/31177-DragonVale-Mafia-Roar-of-the-Rift
mafia f3
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32774-Season-8-Finale!-Secure-Championship-Procedure-The-Mafia-Championship?p=5339138#post5339138
mafia f5
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32447-Constellations-Team-Mafia
town f6 if you wanna stretch the definition a bit
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32938-Poisoner-21-er
town, wasnt in any lylo/mylos but was consensus PoE in LyLo-1, i guess it's probably similar to this game
That makes sense in a game where Hammer and Locked Votes are a thing. Given though that it's not I think it would be in your best interest as wolf to continue to hammer HK wolfing, try to get me in compromised positions, and work to maintain that till the deadline. I think that works for a couple reasons and the biggest one being solving fatigue. I remember a MU game where town lost to Dya, Zone, Ephemeral when Dya and Zone were the last two wolves alive b/c Dya buried myself, visor, and... fatmo? in wall after wall for a gameday and a half to force that fatigue in.
The problem with that strategy is that you also run into wolfing fatigue where you've got to make sure that you continue to make sense and appear more town than the person you're trying to get chopped.
Another reason that works is the longer you dogpile the same person the more likely they are to start experiencing tilt which can be taken advantage of again to further indicate they're wolfing. It's a fine line to walk though because you want your "victim" to be on the back foot but you don't want to actually induce real tilt b/c that most often is townie when it happens.
You want unsettled and nervous, not "rager"
technically true that when i am in a cross going in and burying the other person is effective. but im not really doing that here, i havent even bothered to truly case you
and in mentioning "solving fatigue" i feel like that is an exact description of your play the last few days, hollowkatt
where i have basically been manic in restlessly combing over the thread for new information
i guess what im having a hard time seeing is someone being this lax in this spot as town
i cant tell if im glad votes arent locked so i dont have to stress about making The Decision or if im sad that i have to still consider worlds where i get voted instead
i also kinda ran out of questions although i thought giras answer to the best thing/biggest regret was good
i cant tell if im glad votes arent locked so i dont have to stress about making The Decision or if im sad that i have to still consider worlds where i get voted instead
you dont have to consider it its happening
vote: katze
you dont have to consider it its happening
vote: katze
walterwhitefallingover.gif
im trying to process like
cause one of you is mafia and one is town, ldo
and you both came into today with pretty opposite views on dobby
so obviously like - i thought dobby was gonna die. im town. therefore the person who also thought obby would die is town! wowee
(yes i know its not that simple)
(but i still think HKs view of that is weird and im trying to decipher if it's an absurd villager thought or not)
i will do research largely to entertain the curiosity of my idle mind
i can try to put to words my feelings about hk like i should have done yesterday
or i can regale you with my boomer tales of how i went 5/5 in f3/f4 as mafia back in 2012
im trying to process like
cause one of you is mafia and one is town, ldo
and you both came into today with pretty opposite views on dobby
so obviously like - i thought dobby was gonna die. im town. therefore the person who also thought obby would die is town! wowee
(yes i know its not that simple)
(but i still think HKs view of that is weird and im trying to decipher if it's an absurd villager thought or not)
i also thought dobby was clearly town and hk giving that view just sounds kinda fake honestly
i will do research largely to entertain the curiosity of my idle mind
i can try to put to words my feelings about hk like i should have done yesterday
or i can regale you with my boomer tales of how i went 5/5 in f3/f4 as mafia back in 2012
if you're asking my opinion i'd prefer the middle one, because
while cape died with suspicions on HK and confidence in you being a villager, something i am considering and part of me wants to sheep blindly, i uh. i don't know if i fully see it. i voted HK at EoD because i thought capes last minute was bleeding village and i would have held that in a theoretical F3 but if cape revealed as IC at SoD yesterday id probably have wanted to kill you over HK which is where im stuck rn
man hk played a pretty sick game in f5 back in season 7
if you're asking my opinion i'd prefer the middle one, because
while cape died with suspicions on HK and confidence in you being a villager, something i am considering and part of me wants to sheep blindly, i uh. i don't know if i fully see it. i voted HK at EoD because i thought capes last minute was bleeding village and i would have held that in a theoretical F3 but if cape revealed as IC at SoD yesterday id probably have wanted to kill you over HK which is where im stuck rn
okay lemme get to it again
this is guaranteed to bite me in the ass but katze has too many votes too quickly and therefore is town.
Ender otoh is not.
vote: ender
Yeah I can. He feels stilted, like his content is forced, and that he's struggling to get into the groove of the game.
I tend to ego solve and compare what people are doing to what I'd be doing in their positions. This would tangentially apply to cape as well tbh:
If I were a wolf in this player list I'd be extremely concerned with making the towniest posts I could make and trying to fit in with the overall flow of the game so as not to get caught out immediately. Unfortunately when I do that I tend to be really obvs a wolf as I'm basically trying too hard. Ender (and Cape) feel like they're trying too hard.
The downside to ego solving is that other people are not me (I know, this is a shocking revelation) and don't necessarily react to things the same way I would. This isn't stopping me from making the read.
And before someone asks, my "no chop" vote is totally legit. This is a player list I am going to struggle to read and seeing who dies over night if we don't chop anyone might help in solving. Otherwise I'm likely going to just sheep someone I town read that I perceive is smarter than I am, or be on some weird vanity wagon at the end of the day.
So I figured I'd throw out not chopping as an option, see what people think of that, and go from there.
and yeah I'm being serious
in my defense I have not read the setup at all but judging by this reaction my idea is stupid af.
gonna go back to killing ender then, I think they could use some "hey do something townie" pressure
vote: ender
Suddenly there are pages.
Hi Ender are you town?
Yes.
interactions between ender/hk, part 1
(no spoiler tags, this is lylo baby you get to drink from the firehose)
I just want it said I don't like this post.
I'm going to point out that last time I was actually wolf with you (Hello remember when I literally cased you and got you voted out and I was red?) I was townread and no one thought I was struggling to get into thread.
This honestly feels a VERY weird take on me given that the game I'm talking about was the last time HK and I played together. For him to seriously believe I would struggle to get my groove on as wolf is...
Kinda honestly wolfy.
I don't believe you
Well shucks.
ok, so what gives then? Why does it seem like this game is harder to get into for you?
If you're villager shitposting and tossing off ideas should be fairly straightforward.
The unspoken part of that read I made on you is that this player list is vastly different than that player list and I also did say I was ego solving there and I would struggle as wolf to get established in this list.
You dumpstered me last game, hard, and of course I'm going to be wary of you in this game because of that.
Go be town and do townie things and I'll call you town. Till then I won't.
ikr, soz.
outside of me who else do you think is sus? maybe we can talk and I'll change my mind.
in particular, note how soft the language they use is. do these people really want to push on each other? i do not think they do
another question for the class
do you think that my vote on HK at the end of D5 is alignment indicative? which direction? why or why not?
(ill read all of this when you're done with it, gira, will probably be out for a bit)
I was having fun memeing at the start so unless you're talking about the sharp gear change on ben idk what you're talking about harder to get into.
Uh lemme parse my thoughts into lists.
I dislike Ladd's treatment of me particularly. The read on me (The whole "Backwards quoting" thing) feels entirely forced and also liiiike, unrealistic.
Raskol is obvious scum because of his lack of posts.
Sunbae I was leaning townish but the whole Monstr/Cuth read feels like he realised he fucked up and backed up. Pending explanation that makes my brain do the good wobly jelly I'm going to stare at him.
Monstr feels weaksauce.
I was townreading Cape but the whole Sleep thing is making me wonder.
maybe it was that I didn't think your memes were funny.
Your first 10 or so posts are the ones I felt were "off", and that off-ness I read as "difficulty trying to get into the game"
After that you do improve so meh
cool I can work with that.
Ok, I think sunbae is town. I think I might be the only person who thinks that but i found their early game posting very free flowing and natural. His early posts regarding the suicide bomber felt townie to me in terms of "lets do something bombastic and then relax in dvc for the rest of the game" vs "do the hard work of solving, staying alive, and pushing people".
I get that can also be read as wolfy, I think it's not though.
I also like, and jibe with, the "shield dobby d1" post he made for basically the reasons he articulated. Dobby can be super strong but also can just kinda fold to early pressure even as town, and if dobby is town he'd be an asset for sure (not like this is saying much, the entire thread is an asset tbh).
even if sunbae is wrong here:
it doesn't mean it's not a town way of thinking about things. If sun was doing hard pushes on cape maybe I'd have a different opinion but this reads like a "hey I noticed a thing, anyone else notice a thing" more than a hard push.
I officially rescind my N0 red on Raskol and want to keep him alive for today. I think he's a super easy push for later today b/c he's not posted and he'll likely struggle to catch up if/when he does start posting, but being absent is not a wolf tell for Raskol.
Being a meme filled pockety jerk is though. Just fyi.
I have no read on Ladd but probably should come up with something. Cuth I think can be town, Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.
Well.
I found me funny.
yeah to me they read as more forced content than anything else. I'm not sure if that's just me being weird or ender being weird. My discussions with ender though recently have given me more of a good feeling about him than his earlier posting did so maybe call him null/lean town instead of 'lets kill'
so, he backs off very easily here despite them both calling each other wolves earlier. it's a similar structure to how ladd and ender were talking about each other on day 1. theres no weight behind them pushing each other.
i think if you contrast this with how ladd was pushing me and i was very clearly getting in his face about his cape read (because in my mind i thought they might be teammates), its very clear the level of aggression is really entirely different. ender i was wrong on, but now reading back to the early game i think its clear he was buddying up to me from day 1. i think the interactions with me are just more complicaed, less likely to be staged, where hollowkatt had a pretty basic "slapfight with your partner for 5 minutes and then back off" type of interaction
katze, I will be honest: if you are town I do not know what your hangup is that is keeping you from finding me as town
another question for the class
do you think that my vote on HK at the end of D5 is alignment indicative? which direction? why or why not?
(ill read all of this when you're done with it, gira, will probably be out for a bit)
no because i think it is either town panic or you emulating that and i think you are plenty capable
doing stuff in this thread but also getting distracted by tabbing to see how hollowkatt plays
i'm not gonna go over the dobby stuff again because that's twisty and while the way he pushed him was bad i don't think i can claim confidently it's wolfy
Yeah. Katze is just town for me. Like in their wolf games there is generally this underlying tone of "I am full of shit with everything I say so here's a lot of jokes, self-votes, and depreciating humor and a handfull of posts that attempt to be solvy" and here basically none of that exists.
I say that in the kindest possible way, not that katze is a full of shit player.
This game katze has been really straightforward with how they're approaching things. Possibly the most straightforward game I've seen them play. There's none of the fiddly bits I have come to associate with a katze wolf game.
I think they're just town.
Newcomb otoh is playing like a wolf. I can't point to anything and yell "smoking gun post here" but overall the tone of their game is very much a "defensive/pocketing" type of tone. Like there's a lot of posts in their ISO that are just aimed at specific people. I find myself wanting to town read newcomb based off of some of them, but sitting back and really looking at them I struggle to justify that feeling.
i want to bring this up again
look at this read on newcomb
what is it actually saying?
he's accusing newcomb of being/defensive/piocketing. he doesn't have any actual examples. it doesn't explain what he's doing or why it makes him a wolf. it's vague handwavey nonsense.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 02:50
and in mentioning "solving fatigue" i feel like that is an exact description of your play the last few days, hollowkatt
where i have basically been manic in restlessly combing over the thread for new information
i guess what im having a hard time seeing is someone being this lax in this spot as town
Sure that checks out. I'd counter with this though: Do you feel any more confident in your solve after spending all that energy reviewing the thread and looking for more information?
Katze is competent sure. I have spent the last 20 minutes reading through their MU wolf games both on Katze and their turbo alt and I'm rock solid confident in this read now. As wolf katze is more likely to use self-depreciating humor, is more likely to crack jokes instead of solving, and is more likely to run the game on "shitpost" mode for lack of better terms than they are as town.
I did not say polarized btw, I said I think there's enough of a difference to call that out and make a read based on it.
It is a duality for me. Katze feels obvs town, newcomb does not feel obvs town. If my post reflects that it's because that's what I'm thinking.
I started your ISO with the intention of finding good stuff. The reason that didn't continue is because I wasn't finding more good stuff. I didn't go into your ISO with the intent to paint you as poorly as possible, that just happened
i feel like you might be getting pocketed by this read on you because you just wanted someone to confidently state you were a villager and not that they were afraid of you? but really this read doesnt make sense at all: how would anyone be confident after 20 minutes of research on someone lauded for their wolfing skills that they have a handle on this persons meta and can discern the differences in their alignment? it doesnt really make sense. i wrote it off at the time as a townie being wack but with hindsight its just bizarre. if im actually meta reading someone who isnt a completely raw newbie it takes me hours to do so
and i think the level of confidence hollowkatt has displayed in his townreads is more indicatvie of someone who knows people are town and can find excuses to justify that. if you look at all the dead townies, they were paranoid. you have been paranoid, and so have i. that doesnt really come through in hks posting
Sure that checks out. I'd counter with this though: Do you feel any more confident in your solve after spending all that energy reviewing the thread and looking for more information?
yeah, enough that i would have voted when i did even if there was a hammer
but what does my confidence in my read have to do with difficulty faking solving as a wolf as the game goes on?
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 02:57
im trying to process like
cause one of you is mafia and one is town, ldo
You both came into today with pretty opposite views on dobby
so obviously like - i thought dobby was gonna die. im town. therefore the person who also thought obby would die is town! wowee
(yes i know its not that simple)
(but i still think HKs view of that is weird and im trying to decipher if it's an absurd villager thought or not)
I took out the performative/obligatory words from your post.
Basically I'm trying to see/understand if the rest of your post makes sense without them.
Of course from the perspective of Town Katze one of Sleep and myself are the last wolf.
Sleep thinking dobby = town and HK thinking dobby could be last wolf, and I probably vote him today if it's me, dobby, katze. Me, dobby, sleep though I'm not positive.
I know why I'm here, to make the wrong decision. Which makes me think it's Katze b/c of how consistently I've been calling them town and calling Sleep a blindspot / unknown.
But perhaps Sleep is relying on me looking wolfy enough, or able to be painted wolfy enough that katze will go along.
So I'm left with this: Am I wrong on Katze or is my radar not pinging on Sleep indicative that they're really just kinda "here" throughout the game.
if we're gonna do that we might as well chop me so that dobby has to make a different call. Otherwise we'll chop town today, you'll vest dobby, he'll blow me up, I'll flip town. Dobby might flip town idk, but we'll for sure be down 1x town we didn't need to be down.
No, here's what I'm trying to say:
sunbae said if we chop town he's contemplating giving you the vest to blow someone up. It's pretty clear to me that I'm the person you'd most want to explode, which is fine I get it.
But if that's the plan then chop me today as the "townie" that dies to give you the vest so that you have to blow someone else up.
Basically it's like this:
I know I'm POE and I know I'm likely not posting out of it. That's fine. Instead of continually saying "we really ought to look into HK" resolve me today. Then give you the vest tonight. Make a good decision.
We're currently very far ahead and the mafia have no extra KP after Ladd was chopped. We have time to make mistakes/clear POE via killing them.
It's like MtG, as long as at the end of the day we're +2 on the wolves it doesn't matter how many townies are actually alive, we're still winning this game. Town bodies dying are irrelevant to actually winning the game. We know who the PR are, they're the designated NKs yeah?
That leaves us in the POE to either resolve ourselves or get resolved. It's not "oh woe is me" it's an antiseptic way of reducing possibilities and guiding us towards a mathematical lock on winning the game.
I guess it doesn't matter if I'm the chop today if you promise to blow me up tomorrow
I'm a bad vest target b/c I have zero impulse control.
like ideally we chop a wolf today. the next best thing after that would be removing someone from the POE via the chop.
I'd like to not die but if I'm going to, and I think dobby + vest = dead HK we might as well do me today and give dobby the vest for tomorrow instead of chopping "random town" today and having dobby blow me up tomorrow.
That's the line of thinking that got me there.
okay, so, i will open up off the bat by saying: these are good posts. i thought they were towny when they were posted. i will remind you of this:
So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?
a post which also fooled me.
what these posts offer is he portrait of towny self-sacrifice. what they are not is posts that are actually solving anything.
in other words, they are posts designed to be townread. they are fakeable. there isnt actual analysis content in them. (tbf both of you have said something to the effect of "just chop me" this game)
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 03:00
yeah, enough that i would have voted when i did even if there was a hammer
but what does my confidence in my read have to do with difficulty faking solving as a wolf as the game goes on?
nothing really. I find myself getting more and more torn/paranoid about my choices after doing lots of research in situations like this.
Wanna chop monte instead?
vote: Montmorency
honestly same. I like today dobby a lot more than I liked ISO dobby
yeah, I don't think you're a wolf tbh
I'm bad at photochop but pretend I took the planet fitness logo and re-wrote it so that it says "iawy slander-free zone" instead of judgement free zone
I think there's a valid argument to be made about not wanting to completely out what "best strategy" might be here b/c outing that would allow wolves to attempt to play around it. But I wanted to signal to the PRs that I have been thinking about how this could play out in a town advantageous way
Hey Monte! How do you get to min one wolf in that set of three players? If it's in your ISO somewhere just say that and I'll go find it.
heres some quotes from hk following where he backs off on dobby on day 2
so far, theres no real analysis in these posts: he proposes an alternate vote, makes nice with dobby, talks vaguely about strategy, and asks montmorency a question
Wanna chop monte instead?
vote: Montmorency
honestly same. I like today dobby a lot more than I liked ISO dobby
yeah, I don't think you're a wolf tbh
I'm bad at photochop but pretend I took the planet fitness logo and re-wrote it so that it says "iawy slander-free zone" instead of judgement free zone
I think there's a valid argument to be made about not wanting to completely out what "best strategy" might be here b/c outing that would allow wolves to attempt to play around it. But I wanted to signal to the PRs that I have been thinking about how this could play out in a town advantageous way
Hey Monte! How do you get to min one wolf in that set of three players? If it's in your ISO somewhere just say that and I'll go find it.
well, likewise, which is why i wanted to vote fast and end the day early
ffs multiquote
nothing really. I find myself getting more and more torn/paranoid about my choices after doing lots of research in situations like this.
well, likewise, which is why i wanted to vote fast and end the day early
I'm re-reading the run up to the end of D1. Nothing fun to talk about yet but the wagon formations are super fun to watch happen now that it's not crunch time.
Then Cuth nude votes Ladd
which is interesting b/c Cuth was on Winston, then joins Winston on Ladd. Have to find out if the Cuth Winston vote was legit or just hanging out.
Was not just hanging out... kinda low key hate this sequence tbh
Winston keeps stumping for Ladd votes
Rask flips off of Cuth onto Sunbae
neb flips off of nobody on to Rask
Katze flips off of nobody onto Newcomb
sleep flips off of newcomb into Ladd
dobby flips off of HK onto Rask
sleep flips off of ladd back to newcomb
monte flips from raskol to ladd
Raskol flips from sunbae to Ladd
This ends the day.
Then Monte posts "oh crap what sthe tally"
Neb posts again
katze posts -- this is the first post "POST" deadline
dobby says I don't want either of ladd newc but if I have to choose it's ladd
rask says "sorry I didn't want to"
monte tries to unvote
visor yells at everyone to stop posting.
UGH I WANNA WOLF READ CUTH SO BAD FOR THIS
fuck it
vote: cuthillius
I went through the Winston ISO looking for ladd suspicions. The first is just a naked vote. Then winston says this:
Then he votes Ladd again and cuth makes the above set of posts, then finally joins winston on the ladd wagon for what appears to be reasons I can't fathom.
I looked through Cuths ISO as well and see mostly Ladd V reads there, very little in terms of "could ladd be wolf" until the vote happens
Like this is the closest ladd post cuth makes before the post I quoted at the top of this post
yeah, cuth absolutely can be a wolf here and the ladd vote was advantageous positioning for him here even though it would mean losing wolf PR.
I can't not comment on it though.
Ok, so Monstr didn't have horrible positioning at that time of the game, he was mildly suspect from a few people but not like "omg guys it's always monstr get him" and the way he flipped his tone makes me think that he felt very unhappy that he was being suspected and that he felt his pack was selling him out.
I was on dobby for a while, but I flipped my read and now think he's obvs town. Would prefer you not actually be there tbh
all jokes aside how tf are you on that list?
I think I like cape for town too
this is the stuff that happens after that
and this is what i would define as "spinning his wheels" - the EOD1 stuff is big and fancy and looks productive but doesnt actually say much - the read ion cuth is ultimately one i came to at the same time but. its kinda bad reasoning. and thats all he actually has. and hes displaying confidence in his townreads yet at that point in time still isnt really strongly looking for scum anywhere
ffs multiquote
well, likewise, which is why i wanted to vote fast and end the day early
and, like, if im wrong im confbiasing on u right now
which makes it hard because i dont realistically have a way to get a more confident read on katze
what does it mean that the top two wagons are voting for the third highest wagon
I looked to see if they'd been circling each other longer than just this brief period and no, they haven't, which would be indicative that they're both town, not both wolves and not one wolf one town.
I think we're staring down T/T wagons
Neither of them feel like a wolf trying to shadow/take advantage of the other in terms of who's being pushed or chopped.
I think he's not v but sure
let it rand
vote: newcomb
peepee poopoo
hks EOD2 posts
ask urself: if he really believed these were T/T wagons: why did he not try to influence anything more strongly? why did he just sit back and follow the newcomb wagon? just looks like a tmi read for the sake of being "correct"
katze, I will be honest: if you are town I do not know what your hangup is that is keeping you from finding me as town
i see you've never played with me outside of turbos :p
im either really confident or insanely hedgey and earlier i was really confident in HK V and now im like (insert joycat here)
i feel like you might be getting pocketed by this read on you because you just wanted someone to confidently state you were a villager and not that they were afraid of you? but really this read doesnt make sense at all: how would anyone be confident after 20 minutes of research on someone lauded for their wolfing skills that they have a handle on this persons meta and can discern the differences in their alignment? it doesnt really make sense. i wrote it off at the time as a townie being wack but with hindsight its just bizarre. if im actually meta reading someone who isnt a completely raw newbie it takes me hours to do so
and i think the level of confidence hollowkatt has displayed in his townreads is more indicatvie of someone who knows people are town and can find excuses to justify that. if you look at all the dead townies, they were paranoid. you have been paranoid, and so have i. that doesnt really come through in hks posting
it's definitely pocketed me somewhat. im definitely not used to wolves townreading me like that.
although i type that and im p sure both wolves who've actually played the game townread me quite a bit so maybe the wolves decided that they'd just TMI me V and hope it got me MLed somewhere along the way
another question for the class
do you think that my vote on HK at the end of D5 is alignment indicative? which direction? why or why not?
(ill read all of this when you're done with it, gira, will probably be out for a bit)
HK can you answer this
gg ender plx be town so I don't look dumb for not trying harder to kill you D1
tbh the longer ender goes without bombing the more I town read him
like if I were wolf here with a vest I'd probably thrown down a shitpost or two and then blow up the pr and call it a day
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I WAS RIGHT
anyways GG ender GG sunbae, may DVC be kind to you
revisiting the reaction to the ender bombing the lime about town eading him here is like, so bizarre and forced sounding? like who tf cares about giving a read on the guy with the vest?
and then the reaction - it just looks fake. hollowkatt only weakly pushed ender in early day 1. it doesnt look like the reaction of a villager who had a correct read and backed off it. theres no pain. its an attempted credgrab. i got caught on something similar in a game when i tried to claim i was unaligned with my partner when i'd only voted them and posted 1 line while making no effort to actually get them chopped
gg ender plx be town so I don't look dumb for not trying harder to kill you D1
tbh the longer ender goes without bombing the more I town read him
like if I were wolf here with a vest I'd probably thrown down a shitpost or two and then blow up the pr and call it a day
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I WAS RIGHT
i see you've never played with me outside of turbos :p
im either really confident or insanely hedgey and earlier i was really confident in HK V and now im like (insert joycat here)
right, being unconfident is understandable. i get that thats ur playstyle and being unconfident in the spot we are in is pretty normal, as someone who is in f3 a lot. anyone who says they arent unconfident in this spot is lying or a weirdo.
but that isnt specifically what i was asking you about. i was asking you about your read on me. i am asking you what has you so paranoid of me starting today and yesterday. i am asking what has you considering the possibility i could be mafia.
lol this multiquote i apologize for these disasters i am spawning on the page but its easier for me to use that feature than manually copy/pasting every single thing i want to quote
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 03:21
HK can you answer this
yeah, it felt squidgy.
Like when you're in a lake yeah? and the bottom goes from sand to mud in one step and your toes do that instinctive curl up thing to hide from whatever is lurking in the muck.
Like Cape was basically saying "it's HK and if it isn't HK it's katze"
Anyway, I guess I say good luck town, I could guess who is dying already, but im sure so can many others.
I suppose this is where I depart, mostly I think it's HK because... who has been actually working and putting out content more then HK? Oh literally everybody? Oh even myself??? wowee
such amazing reads have caught cuth and mont, i know god bless me. LMAO
can wolves just like, be obvious in final 3 for me, that's my only request, just signal to me
ugh, this wolf is deep but it's obviously katze or HK
I would probs say katze
and at the time it felt like you were casting a vote that would allow you to swap to me in F3.
speaking of unconfident the last time i was in f3 i got hammer instantly and still waited 6 days to hammer despite knowing what i wanted to do because the anxiety was so bad lmao.
(i know this sounds like a terrible relationship with the game of mafia. i swear i am working to be better about it)
right, being unconfident is understandable. i get that thats ur playstyle and being unconfident in the spot we are in is pretty normal, as someone who is in f3 a lot. anyone who says they arent unconfident in this spot is lying or a weirdo.
but that isnt specifically what i was asking you about. i was asking you about your read on me. i am asking you what has you so paranoid of me starting today and yesterday. i am asking what has you considering the possibility i could be mafia.
oh
my confidence in dobby V rose and my confidence in cape W dropped
in my mind it meant the chance of a wolf in you/HK was way higher than i previously thought and i reread the game and my brain latched onto more of your postings than HKs?
this probably isnt a super satisfying answer but oh well
yeah, it felt squidgy.
Like when you're in a lake yeah? and the bottom goes from sand to mud in one step and your toes do that instinctive curl up thing to hide from whatever is lurking in the muck.
Like Cape was basically saying "it's HK and if it isn't HK it's katze"
and at the time it felt like you were casting a vote that would allow you to swap to me in F3.
so why is your focus primarily on sleep today?
i've stated that i currently lean towards voting him over you, he's currently voting you, if you think it's suspicious of me then like
idg what ur doing
why'd you expect me to die if you thought it was weird
speaking of unconfident the last time i was in f3 i got hammer instantly and still waited 6 days to hammer despite knowing what i wanted to do because the anxiety was so bad lmao.
(i know this sounds like a terrible relationship with the game of mafia. i swear i am working to be better about it)
wtf
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 03:29
the push from sleep here feels a lot like the push ender made on me in the Pirates game on MafC where he took my worst posts, made a coherent case, and got me chopped D2. Ender was a wolf.
it reads more like a paint by numbers picture than a legitimate effort to understand what my alignment is. Things I think are incredibly townie are being painted as wishy-washy wolf play, like my engagement with Ender.
I'm not a phighter, or marl, or alison, or alexa. I like to find common ground to work with people instead of running over them with my reads.
When I told Ender "do town things and I will town read you" I was telling the truth. I thought he was a wolf but I wanted to give him a chance to do town things. I know Ender is a strong player as both alignments and if I was wrong we'd be doing a disservice to town. Same with me echoing the read on Dobby from Sunbae where Dobby, when alive, can be super valuable, but he's vulnerable to being mistakenly chopped early as his early game can be weak.
I do better trying to find town than I do finding wolves, that's why I toss out town reads like candy and rarely have solid wolf reads that I push.
So when Sleep is digging these things up and my reaction is to go "whatever" it's not because I don't care, it's because to me those things are super town.
I still haven't finished reading D1 again fwiw
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 03:35
oh
my confidence in dobby V rose and my confidence in cape W dropped
in my mind it meant the chance of a wolf in you/HK was way higher than i previously thought and i reread the game and my brain latched onto more of your postings than HKs?
this probably isnt a super satisfying answer but oh well
so why is your focus primarily on sleep today?
i've stated that i currently lean towards voting him over you, he's currently voting you, if you think it's suspicious of me then like
idg what ur doing
why'd you expect me to die if you thought it was weird
I thought dobby had pocketed me. I was angling to eat the NK when I wrote my "why everyone can be town / why everyone can be a wolf" post. I wanted wolf dobby to know that I still would chop him in F3 if it came down to it.
The reason I thought that is because he came into D2 with a very strong HK wolfing read and I felt that he backed off of that rather quickly once we engaged together. I was casing him at that time because I thought he was casing me, as a wolf, to get me on his list of mischops.
I'm currently focusing on Sleep as he's the one writing posts on why I can be a wolf. Obvs wifom/triteness incoming:
I know I'm town so I'm trying to understand why Sleep is posting like he can't see that. If I come to the conclusion that he's pushing me because he legit thinks I'm the wolf then great, I know it's you. If I come to the conclusion that he's pushing me because I'm his chance at winning then great, you're town.
vote: hollowkatt
#ForCape
pretend that was an epic hammer
i honestly have no idea what im doing
my cat keeps crying from across the house im going to go insane
man basically every dead villager has gira as a lock clear
i know most of them would be wanting to vote me rn but
i feel kinda like id be doing a massive disservice by... not respecting that without something major
real talk question: why bus Ladd here instead of voting newcomb or rask?
does it actually out Ladd as wolf? Yes we'd spend D2 talking about Ladd and the wagons but I'm not sure Ladd goes over D2 tbh
if you're asking does katze have the chutzpah to do that? absolutely katze does.
If you're asking did katze do it this game I think the answer is no
three of the ladd voters are still alive. Monte is the obvs wolf of the bunch. Raskol I think I have really good reasons to town read. Cuth otoh still feels a bit wonky to me.
if it's monte he voted his entire team during D1
who's not a wolf:
neb
katze
dobby
hk
who is unlikely a wolf:
raskol
sleep
cape
who could be a wolf:
cuth
monte
this is where I'm currently at. I think neb, katze, dobby are obvs town. I think there are very good reasons to town read raskol, cape, and sleep. I think we're on cruise control to chop monte and I have very little reason to town read them. I think managing to vote all three dead wolves on D1 is either god tier luck, god tier reads, or TMI.
Cuth is in the bottom tier instead of the middle tier b/c frankly I think they've dropped off pretty damn hard. But probably it's just monte
vote: monte
so again, picking up where i left off, heres more of HKs posts. what i would again say is: wheres the actual analysis? he outs a lists of reads that fees underdeveloped. it reminds me of a post i made back in the day where i just kind of brusquely listed off a poe fter my partners had died, no real reasoning to it
ok so
i just spent the last hour reading from the start
and
hk is just v
he dunks on wolf after wolf
the wolves are all distancing like mad
sleep also
and in particular the sequence when he absolutely dunks on cape
i acknowledge that cape isn't flipped
but in perspective of ender stuff i think it's like
chill sorry my brain is absolutely fried
but cape like v-reads sleep for. not w-reading ender but saying that someone else had a way more believable take on the ender post cape called "weird" (before immediately v-reading him for unclear reasons)
this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053828345&viewfull=1#post2053828345) is hilarious
basically
dobby and katze just feel super believable
and i have felt this and i think there are probably concrete things i could find if i read the whole game but there have been stretches where they just feel villagery
and
looking back at the cape stuff when i was initially v-reading it looks not so great esp with the perspective on overall wolf strategy
so i feel pretty ok with going there today
and very confident on sleep/hk v
cuth pls
what if:
I guess the big question of the day is this: was there a wolf on Ladd and given their role and given the way the wagon flashed out of nowhere I'm inclined to think wolves were trying to save Ladd more so than gain credit from being on his wagon. Obvs they could not be flashy about saving him b/c it would out them.
But here's a thing:
This is the vote count from 18 minutes before EOD:
Notice a complete and utter lack of Ladd wagon other than the lone Winston vote.
Here we have one wolf on newcomb, one wolf on sleep, and one wolf on raskol. I think none of those are buses.
Then we have the next count:
It's 12 minutes later and the Cuth wagon has vanished. Ladd still at 1 vote, Cuth has moved to Winston, the Raskol wagon has also dropped a voter.
One minute to go:
6 wagons with 2 votes each. At this point there is no telling who is going to go over. Nobody can claim any kind of credit from Ladd at this point as there's no real push other than from winston to get people voting for Ladd. He's the only one stumping for the chop here.
Contrast with the final vote count:
I think this shows Raskol and Sleep are town. If they are goons they are both bused to save Ladd here. I say this because again there was not a huge impetus to save Ladd. His wagon grew organically and votes were flying pretty quickly in the last minute or so of the game day.
I think it also shows that there was not a coordinated bus effort on Ladd. Kinda want to clear his whole wagon which is why I posted the first "what if" at the top.
I want to add Cuth to the "can't be a wolf here" bucket b/c why does he vote his PR on the back of Winston asking for Ladd votes when Cuth was voting Winston moments before he votes Ladd? It doesn't add up to me. I know Cuth is an insanely good player as both alignments but still, there's literally zero reasons to move to Ladd here as wolf goon when you can just stay on Raskol, not to mention moving off of Raskol puts the Cuth wagon clearly in the lead by 2 votes which is quite a bit to overcome in the last couple minutes of a game day. It did happen so it's not impossible but still, unlikely to me that Cuth is a wolf.
Then there is the monte question. I said earlier he had votes on each of the dead wolves on D1 and ended his day on the Ladd wagon.
Before that though he is pretty much parked on Raskol in the run up to the end of the day. Like Cuth what is the impetus to move to Ladd, what does wolf?Monte gain from doing that. I argue it's the same thing with Cuth. Monte wasn't highly suspected during D1, there was no gamestate reason for Monte to reach for credit like this. He also doesn't make much noise in terms of trying to capitalize on said credit.
I would argue Monte is town for the same reasons here.
So Rask, Sleep, Cuth, Monte town
Leaving
HK
Dobby
Neb
Katze
Cape
Remove myself, remove Dobby, remove Neb. Leaves Katze and Cape.
This is where I get stuck tbh. I can find reasonable reasons to town read both of them.
vote: katze
gonna try this on for a while and see how it feels.
this is a post.
its...well, admittedly, its something. but a lot of it is narrating the EOD1 wagon and then drawing confident conclusions from it. conclusions were paranoiaed ourselves out of. the thing about it is: he mostly spends his time finding reasons to call people town off it. he isnt finding reasons someone could be scum. you can do the former as mafia because itll always be accurate but the latter is harder
the push from sleep here feels a lot like the push ender made on me in the Pirates game on MafC where he took my worst posts, made a coherent case, and got me chopped D2. Ender was a wolf.
it reads more like a paint by numbers picture than a legitimate effort to understand what my alignment is. Things I think are incredibly townie are being painted as wishy-washy wolf play, like my engagement with Ender.
I'm not a phighter, or marl, or alison, or alexa. I like to find common ground to work with people instead of running over them with my reads.
When I told Ender "do town things and I will town read you" I was telling the truth. I thought he was a wolf but I wanted to give him a chance to do town things. I know Ender is a strong player as both alignments and if I was wrong we'd be doing a disservice to town. Same with me echoing the read on Dobby from Sunbae where Dobby, when alive, can be super valuable, but he's vulnerable to being mistakenly chopped early as his early game can be weak.
I do better trying to find town than I do finding wolves, that's why I toss out town reads like candy and rarely have solid wolf reads that I push.
So when Sleep is digging these things up and my reaction is to go "whatever" it's not because I don't care, it's because to me those things are super town.
I still haven't finished reading D1 again fwiw
okay
like
fwiw i am very good at biasing myself into a tunnel as town (and have recent evidence to prove this)
but if you decide you want to talk to me i'll hear you out
tbfh, spamming #thefear isn't helping. (because it works, I just want to yeet them into the sun rn)
lmao
#TheFear
alright im gonna do an effort so ill probably be mostly gone for a while but ill refresh occasionally in case people wanna talk to me or something wowee
unvote
might be logging off for the night
i know the votes dont mean anything but still
love having 45 hours to second guess
ok i lied im not going to do that much effort (i was gonna write a wall or two but i honestly can't be bothered) so im just rereading both of your posts (this sites iso feature sucks so thank you both for having ctrl-f'able titles) and preflipping you both W and seeing which shoe fits better
ive never actually gotten to try this cause every lylo ive been since ive wanted to ive been mafia or the game was too long!
love having 45 hours to second guess
i was honestly hoping to have this game end by tomorrow or something because being forced to think about a lylo for 2 days is gonna suck but meh
HK D1 shoe kinda fits
shoe might be a little bit wide
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 04:34
this is a post.
its...well, admittedly, its something. but a lot of it is narrating the EOD1 wagon and then drawing confident conclusions from it. conclusions were paranoiaed ourselves out of. the thing about it is: he mostly spends his time finding reasons to call people town off it. he isnt finding reasons someone could be scum. you can do the former as mafia because itll always be accurate but the latter is harder
Yes, I do better finding townies than I do wolves. That was kind of a point I made already in a post you quoted.
And if you look I was right to call rask, cuth, monte town. also right on neb and dobby. Obvs right on myself. Wrong on cape but maybe I made the right vote at the end there?
I guess the question I want to ask you is this: Do you legit think that post is all TMI or do you think I arrived at a legitimate conclusion?
Additionally, if I arrived at a legitimate and correct conclusion in that neb, dobby, cuth, monte, rask, myself, and YOU are all town then the last wolf is always within cape/katze, and we chopped cape to get there and he was town then isn't the logical conclusion you can draw from reading this post that Katze is the last wolf?
I can only conclude that you believe that post is just TMI. The reason for that is this: If you thought I'd arrived there legitimately AND YOU ARE TOWN you would be crowing at the top of your lungs "OMG HK I'M SORRY I WAS WRONG ON YOU IT'S KATZE"
Because Rask, Cuth, Dobby, Monte, Neb, Cape all flipped town. That literally leaves me and you and katze and if you're town and you think I wrote that post legit the only possible conclusion is Katze.
Right?
ok something came up so im not finishing this tonight have to attend to friends in need
i didnt get through seleps D1 would say the shoe is looser there so far
i lied i moved to doing meta research
Yes, I do better finding townies than I do wolves. That was kind of a point I made already in a post you quoted.
And if you look I was right to call rask, cuth, monte town. also right on neb and dobby. Obvs right on myself. Wrong on cape but maybe I made the right vote at the end there?
I guess the question I want to ask you is this: Do you legit think that post is all TMI or do you think I arrived at a legitimate conclusion?
Additionally, if I arrived at a legitimate and correct conclusion in that neb, dobby, cuth, monte, rask, myself, and YOU are all town then the last wolf is always within cape/katze, and we chopped cape to get there and he was town then isn't the logical conclusion you can draw from reading this post that Katze is the last wolf?
I can only conclude that you believe that post is just TMI. The reason for that is this: If you thought I'd arrived there legitimately AND YOU ARE TOWN you would be crowing at the top of your lungs "OMG HK I'M SORRY I WAS WRONG ON YOU IT'S KATZE"
Because Rask, Cuth, Dobby, Monte, Neb, Cape all flipped town. That literally leaves me and you and katze and if you're town and you think I wrote that post legit the only possible conclusion is Katze.
Right?
i mean
i guess lmao
its possible to confidently oversell that post as mafia but idk
some of the early game stuff with ender looks similar to how hk distanced with invictus in bluey mafia, but gah idk
>tfw he made a post in this game about how he thinks sleeping early is dumb
>but he was mafia that game
im just rereading both of your posts (this sites iso feature sucks so thank you both for having ctrl-f'able titles) and preflipping you both W and seeing which shoe fits better
are you, now
are you, now
no not now, im being a support katze in two different friends DMs and can't concentrate on analyzing a mafia game while doing so and i care about my friends more than this
wowee
okay, let me explain my worldview:
hk's response to my attempted dumpstering of him sent me. threw me completely for a loop. was not what i was expecting, at all. have never seen mafia respond like that to me.
but at the same time, i am reading his play on Bluey mafia on the syndicate. his play here feels like a carbon copy of that game. it concerns me a lot. so many of his posts have me saying "how can this guy really believe this" like the dobby comment. i will have to read some towngames to compare but that is where my head is for the night - i am very confused
no not now, im being a support katze in two different friends DMs and can't concentrate on analyzing a mafia game while doing so and i care about my friends more than this
wowee
would you believe me if i told you i had read this post minutes before you said that:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/31177-DragonVale-Mafia-Roar-of-the-Rift?p=5076574&viewfull=1#post5076574
would you believe me if i told you i had read this post minutes before you said that:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/31177-DragonVale-Mafia-Roar-of-the-Rift?p=5076574&viewfull=1#post5076574
i kind of assumed you did by your reaction but it's also something i legitimately have wanted to try as town :p
vote: unvote
+
vote: to enable majority
im making a statement
it will probably do nothing
ill probably get back to reading d1 (i accidentally closed the tab i left off at so i guess ill have to start over) in the morning just because my brain is occupied with other things but
nya
okay i lied i got anxious thinking about this game again and friend is sleep now
an aside but the notion that i would drop a wall case to "appear villagy" as wolf rather than because i wanted to push someone is p. funny. overthinking it. not sure it means anything for the ppl speculating on it (newcomb, katze), i just found it funny
i don't really like sleep posts anymore, he kinda feels like a tryhard wolf who found an easy villager to bury and look villagery with
is there a reason you didnt put ladd in the quoted post sleep
thats not like a trick question
im still reading thru d1 and vaguely remember seeing that during F5 and thinking it might mean something but dropping it cause it felt dumb but now i had the thought agin
im through D1 again
i... can still see sleep as mafia. i think the shoe fits.... i don't know if it fits more than HK?
ugh i probably should explain this with big words but
so. if i boil down sleeps posts on D1... take away all of the nuance and the big words and fancy stuff and just boil them straight down to what they are saying and the agenda it's pushing, i think sleep wolf sided a lot more than i remembered D1.
mafia isn't that binary yadda yadda yadda, the argument between sleep and ladd is something i need to reread closer. i saw some sleep/ender stuff that looked kinda W/W but some sleep/ladd things that kinda didn't feel like it fit. im not closely analyzing that right now
there were also a few posts i think are just... if you told me sleep was mafia i'd say the posts would make sense to come out the way they did? there was one that was like "im obvious town and if you dont know that then idk what to say" but i don't think it rly made sense given a few things
but if i ignore all of that there were some villagery posts and if i unboil and put back all the nuance and fancy stuff then yeah
also i just read through this post and was like "hey dumbass stop putting zero effort into explaining your thoughts votes arent locked the villager can easily turn on you" and meeeeeeh leave me alone brain
im only adding that so someone can call this or that self aware
polidab
...sleeps d2 is honestly pretty bad
i shuld also say: theres these posts from ender about monstr, decide for yourself how they look:
i honestly feel like this is a fairly good look for ender - while its possible
i have already said i feel its entirely possible monstr asked to be bussed, but i feel like in concert with the ladd stuff this is just more likely a villager than anything? generally if wolves are going for the strat of hellbussing each other like crazy day 1 they dont tae their foot off the gas at the last minute.
its possible i have the wrong angle on this and for wolves it was convenient to try to get me/newcomb as TvT wagons with them taking opposite sides. but looking at the posts im not sure i see it, if i am missing something here please tell me
there was another post in the 1700s i forgot to save but
lmao
tired
HKs D2 is better
i can see worlds where he's mafia cause like. if he's a wolf his goal is literally to win F3. it's pretty evident. the dude is flat out burying wolves and pocketing a hoe (its me, im the hoe)
i might need to do some brief meta dives tomorrow to see exactly how HK villages because if i were ignoring reads entirely sleep is townier by posting but i kinda think that'd be true regardless of who the wolf is so shrug
i'll concede that the confidence of HKs read on me is pretty unnerving
his 180 on dobby feels weird if wolf
gn
also i thought giras posting today felt like he knew i was town but i didnt want to say that earlier because it felt dumb but i also flat out just think he was trying to call HK wolfy for any reason he could
banana
okay i lied i got anxious thinking about this game again and friend is sleep now
is there a reason you didnt put ladd in the quoted post sleep
i honestly do not remember. i may have thought he came off worse than you two did but it was 2 weeks ago so its not like i can recall what my exact thoughts were at the time
i was arguing with him directly at the time so its not like you can claim i was ignoring him
so. if i boil down sleeps posts on D1... take away all of the nuance and the big words and fancy stuff and just boil them straight down to what they are saying and the agenda it's pushing, i think sleep wolf sided a lot more than i remembered D1.
mafia isn't that binary yadda yadda yadda, the argument between sleep and ladd is something i need to reread closer. i saw some sleep/ender stuff that looked kinda W/W but some sleep/ladd things that kinda didn't feel like it fit. im not closely analyzing that right now
there were also a few posts i think are just... if you told me sleep was mafia i'd say the posts would make sense to come out the way they did? there was one that was like "im obvious town and if you dont know that then idk what to say" but i don't think it rly made sense given a few things
i thnk its more or less undeniable my reads this game, starting from day 1, were not good.i also dont think thats a reliable indicator of me being mafia. i also full well and truly believe that i should have been easily findable as town based on how i played that day and i was...greatly annoyed that i was getting pushed on because it was like "wtf how do you not see me as town here"
...sleeps d2 is honestly pretty bad
there was another post in the 1700s i forgot to save but
lmao
heres the thing, katze: i was dead wrong. i admit it. my play was bad. but bad is not the same thing as wolfy. i drew the incorrect conclusion on ender. so did some other villagers, because the mafia played in a way to fake being unassociated and we got fooled. thats how the game goes. being wrong doesnt make me a wolf
tired
HKs D2 is better
i can see worlds where he's mafia cause like. if he's a wolf his goal is literally to win F3. it's pretty evident. the dude is flat out burying wolves and pocketing a hoe (its me, im the hoe)
i might need to do some brief meta dives tomorrow to see exactly how HK villages because if i were ignoring reads entirely sleep is townier by posting but i kinda think that'd be true regardless of who the wolf is so shrug
i'll concede that the confidence of HKs read on me is pretty unnerving
his 180 on dobby feels weird if wolf
gn
i dispute the notion that hollowkatt "buried" anyone pretty strongly
yes he called out monstr. so did a lot of people. but it was like one line and then he went immediately to fosing rask in the next posts. keeping his options open. he barely talked about ender - had him in his poe but didnt really put pressure toward him. thats like wolfplay 101, i hope you realize
also i thought giras posting today felt like he knew i was town but i didnt want to say that earlier because it felt dumb but i also flat out just think he was trying to call HK wolfy for any reason he could
banana
i didnt know. i was reasonably confident you were town and hk was scum based on all the reading i had done in the prior phase. i also wanted to trust my instincts.
this might be an issue where you haven't been in this spot before very often and distrust my play because it seems strange?
from experience, i learned a very long time ago that in f3 the best way to get a read is by backreading. you arent going to be able to get the best reads on people by talking to them because town and mafia are going to act a lot more similarly here than on prior days. i didnt really enter today with the intention to "solve" either of you by talking to you. i had gone through both of your ISOs the previous day.
theres a certain amount of jockeying and discussion that goes on obviously and attempts to make your perspective clear but by and large im not looking to play the interrogator here
it did make me nervous when it seemed like you were sitting back asking kinda aimless questions and letting me go after hk, and the way he responded scared me, but again from experience allowing myself to get strongly influenced by how someone is acting in fx is a great way to lose the game because mafia will say anything if they think it will get you on their side
i can already see it coming that this is another game where i get MLed in f3 for the crime of being wrong for most of the game
but the thing is thats what happens with being town - you dont know who the mafia are and sometimes your reads are just flat-out wrong. i dont have the advantage of being informed to be able to position myself in a way that makes me look good down the line. the thing is i think being right/wrong shouldnt be as important as me having made a clear effort to try to solve. im not really a particularly good scumhunter whatsoever.
i dont expect that to be convincing because it wasnt convincing the other times i was in this spot but its the honest truth and its all that i have
i dont know if it will help at all but heres some links:
Artemis Fowl Mafia (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/30014-Artemis-Fowl-Mafia?p=4812887&viewfull=1#post4812887) - the mafia go down days 1, 3, and 4 (day 2 I MLed Newcomb, whoops). it was a 13er so i get kinda blindsided that the game continues. i start of the day wrong but eventually change my mind on wisp. i spend three game days saying in an increasingly louder voice "hey i think its cuth" and getting ignored because no one was actually paying attention to my posts. the other town slot gets replaced in f3. rather than dumping on cuth immediately that game day i hang back and let the sub do their own reading while i do some research. i get nervous because i dont trust the judgment of a fresh sub enough to pass them hammer. i try to pin cuth down o commit to a stance and he responds by being evasive, because he knows he cant pass me hammer.
ultimately i get MLed because despite Nacho trying to ML me on day 1, i never really pushed any of the mafia until after they were caught, and cuth was always a step ahead with his bussing despite having defended all of the mafia at some point.
Newbie 2045 (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=12481786#p12481786) - i have wrongly mis-pushed town all game (including illwei!). i go into f5 paranoiaing on unwnd because he said some really shitty stuff to me about "not showing him that i don't wanna lose the game" and that thing sets me off. regardless, we end up in a scum/scum cross that day. one of the mafia (safebet) gets flipped. i get speedlimmed because i had voted in the opposite side of the cross and i had blindspotted safebet for most of the game. i didnt even get a chance to defend myself. this was against a player who had literally done jackshit all game, had claimed doctor, and didnt die overnight. i had suspected it was a fakeclaim as far back as day 2 but didnt have the guts to push it. meanwhile safebet had consistently distanced and town bought into that even though he didn't really try hard to get lunar martian killed. i again lose because my reads werent great and scum had set themselves up
ive read 2 hk mafia games of a relatively recent vintage and its mostly reinforced my belief that its him
will be looking at some of his town games as comps but yeah
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 15:48
I've decided I'm not moving off of Sleep.
incredibly weaksauce response to what I think is a good post here:
Yes, I do better finding townies than I do wolves. That was kind of a point I made already in a post you quoted.
And if you look I was right to call rask, cuth, monte town. also right on neb and dobby. Obvs right on myself. Wrong on cape but maybe I made the right vote at the end there?
I guess the question I want to ask you is this: Do you legit think that post is all TMI or do you think I arrived at a legitimate conclusion?
Additionally, if I arrived at a legitimate and correct conclusion in that neb, dobby, cuth, monte, rask, myself, and YOU are all town then the last wolf is always within cape/katze, and we chopped cape to get there and he was town then isn't the logical conclusion you can draw from reading this post that Katze is the last wolf?
I can only conclude that you believe that post is just TMI. The reason for that is this: If you thought I'd arrived there legitimately AND YOU ARE TOWN you would be crowing at the top of your lungs "OMG HK I'M SORRY I WAS WRONG ON YOU IT'S KATZE"
Because Rask, Cuth, Dobby, Monte, Neb, Cape all flipped town. That literally leaves me and you and katze and if you're town and you think I wrote that post legit the only possible conclusion is Katze.
Right?
i mean
i guess lmao
its possible to confidently oversell that post as mafia but idk
I'm asking thought provoking questions, looking for in depth thoughts, comments, or even just "no your conclusion is wrong and here's why you wolf" but instead it's incredibly milquetoast.
okay, let me explain my worldview:
hk's response to my attempted dumpstering of him sent me. threw me completely for a loop. was not what i was expecting, at all. have never seen mafia respond like that to me.
but at the same time, i am reading his play on Bluey mafia on the syndicate. his play here feels like a carbon copy of that game. it concerns me a lot. so many of his posts have me saying "how can this guy really believe this" like the dobby comment. i will have to read some towngames to compare but that is where my head is for the night - i am very confused
I think the reason my response throws you is because I don't feel dumpstered in any way. I feel like you're constructing a narrative moreso than attempting to actually solve the game. You're accusing me of things like "no analysis"
Players Votes
ladd 4 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius, Montmorency, Raskolnikov)
Newcomb 3 (Enderwiggin, katze, Sleep)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, nebjiamn, Dobby)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
hollowkatt 1 (Csargo)
This is the final tally I have.
Pm me or dm me on discord if there are any corrections.
real talk question: why bus Ladd here instead of voting newcomb or rask?
does it actually out Ladd as wolf? Yes we'd spend D2 talking about Ladd and the wagons but I'm not sure Ladd goes over D2 tbh
do you think katze uh, tunnels newcomb as fiercely as she did if wolf
and uh
i kinda want to see what happened after my ender vote because i think i wasnt the only one on him before i left last night, so like, wagonomics might ACTUALLY tell something this game, most often they dont though
but also, ender voting cape is.... only meaningful if he tried to go very deep by bussing in a situation where either of them might go down, i dont really believe that. there's not a crossvote either which would make MORE sense if they were teamed... Might be worth checking earlier vc's as well to see how the woofers have voted re eachother
but i dont know how to search this forum (and even if i use searh thread it only gives me last 100 posts, and if i ctrl f dobby on a page it doesnt fucking show posts that ive written for some reaosn)
if you're asking does katze have the chutzpah to do that? absolutely katze does.
If you're asking did katze do it this game I think the answer is no
kat and ender on newcomb actually
okay i might AKSHULLY look into the votes because i think there's something there
oh and the logical answer to this is if he voteswitches from ladd then itll be very obvious that hes woof that fake voted a teammate because ladd was 100% going to go down either way even if not at eod.
three of the ladd voters are still alive. Monte is the obvs wolf of the bunch. Raskol I think I have really good reasons to town read. Cuth otoh still feels a bit wonky to me.
if it's monte he voted his entire team during D1
who's not a wolf:
neb
katze
dobby
hk
who is unlikely a wolf:
raskol
sleep
cape
who could be a wolf:
cuth
monte
this is where I'm currently at. I think neb, katze, dobby are obvs town. I think there are very good reasons to town read raskol, cape, and sleep. I think we're on cruise control to chop monte and I have very little reason to town read them. I think managing to vote all three dead wolves on D1 is either god tier luck, god tier reads, or TMI.
Cuth is in the bottom tier instead of the middle tier b/c frankly I think they've dropped off pretty damn hard. But probably it's just monte
vote: monte
so again, picking up where i left off, heres more of HKs posts. what i would again say is: wheres the actual analysis? he outs a lists of reads that fees underdeveloped. it reminds me of a post i made back in the day where i just kind of brusquely listed off a poe fter my partners had died, no real reasoning to it
So Sleep says "where is the actual analysis" and I would like to submit that by only quoting MY posts and not the posts that I was responding to you lose quite a bit of context. I'm not throwing these ideas out blankly I'm responding to others ideas with my own. I don't need to submit / provide "analysis" with those ideas, it's a conversation that I'm trying to have.
Then I take those ideas from the conversation and run with them for a while, it's a very clear and obvious progression without having to hit people over the head with "this is my progression and why/how I get there".
Sleep feels like he came into today with a "Chop HK" agenda as opposed to coming into F3 with "I (Sleep) am town and I need to find the other townie".
I've decided I'm not moving off of Sleep.
incredibly weaksauce response to what I think is a good post here:
I'm asking thought provoking questions, looking for in depth thoughts, comments, or even just "no your conclusion is wrong and here's why you wolf" but instead it's incredibly milquetoast. i will be honest here i kind of struggled to understand what you were saying there and the whole thing threw me off to the point where i didnt know how to answer
I think the reason my response throws you is because I don't feel dumpstered in any way. I feel like you're constructing a narrative moreso than attempting to actually solve the game. You're accusing me of things like "no analysis"i mean its irrelevant how you feel about my accusations: what threw me off is the fact that i was basically coming at you all out and the way you reponded was NOT how i expected mafia to respond to a town strongly suspecting them in lylo (i was expecting something more along the lines of this, you coming at me with claws out trying to take me down, altho doing this doesnt make you more scum in my eyes)
So Sleep says "where is the actual analysis" and I would like to submit that by only quoting MY posts and not the posts that I was responding to you lose quite a bit of context. I'm not throwing these ideas out blankly I'm responding to others ideas with my own. I don't need to submit / provide "analysis" with those ideas, it's a conversation that I'm trying to have.
Then I take those ideas from the conversation and run with them for a while, it's a very clear and obvious progression without having to hit people over the head with "this is my progression and why/how I get there".
Sleep feels like he came into today with a "Chop HK" agenda as opposed to coming into F3 with "I (Sleep) am town and I need to find the other townie".
i already said but i came into today with a read. i still think from what i have seen it didnt really look like your posts were working much toward solving the game at all. you looked like someone who knew they were in a good position and were mostly hanging back to avoid getting your hands too dirty. that was my asessment of things
weve had multiple game days to generate content i dont play by trying to "solve" you in f3
like i will say my first reaction to how you responded to me was "oshi-what if im wrong" and i was trying to open up that lane for possible discussion so as to demonstrate for me where i went wrong in reading you
tfw i have been in more f3s than both of you combined and i get told i am doing it wrong
i suppose my track record might be a testament that i am, in fact, doing it wrong, but still
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 17:07
i will be honest here i kind of struggled to understand what you were saying there and the whole thing threw me off to the point where i didnt know how to answer
i mean its irrelevant how you feel about my accusations: what threw me off is the fact that i was basically coming at you all out and the way you reponded was NOT how i expected mafia to respond to a town strongly suspecting them in lylo (i was expecting something more along the lines of this, you coming at me with claws out trying to take me down, altho doing this doesnt make you more scum in my eyes)
i already said but i came into today with a read. i still think from what i have seen it didnt really look like your posts were working much toward solving the game at all. you looked like someone who knew they were in a good position and were mostly hanging back to avoid getting your hands too dirty. that was my asessment of things
weve had multiple game days to generate content i dont play by trying to "solve" you in f3
I don't understand at all what is difficult about this question: Was my analysis of the EOD1 wagons and then run-up to actual EOD itself TMI or legit analysis/thoughts?
Like if you think I'm the last wolf the slam dunk answer is "HK had TMI and that's why he's so accurate there" and here's the rub even if I am wrong in that analysis and you are miscleared when it's really katze who is clear that is STILL the slam dunk answer for wolf?Sleep.
tbh I feel like you perceive that post as bait and are struggling with how to answer it. Town convinced of their purity and convinced of my guilt says "yeah, I think that's TMI, there's only one wolf left and the way you're clearing people doesn't make sense / isn't logical / advances a chops agenda you need to win".
Wolf Sleep tho has to determine whether or not this is a bait post and therefore has a harder time responding to it / engaging with it.
I wasn't responding with teeth and claws because there's no need for me to do that. I'm firm in my belief that my town bona fides show through in my posting and I'm confident that I'm making posts that are just beyond what I can make as a wolf.
I don't see how being vocally against players like newcomb, dobby (for a time), cape, monte, cuth, and helping to push players like newcomb, cape, and cuth over the line as chops can be perceived as "hanging back to avoid getting my hands dirty".
Like I was vocal that i thought there was a difference check between katze and newcomb and if the MU ww draft amrock ran taught me anything it was that Newcomb is a legendary god and frankly my play shows I just dgaf about that.
I was vocal for days I thought cape was a wolf, helped push him over yesterday. Vocally called out cuth for wolfing. I just don't see how my play can be "hang back" play.
My play doesn't have mountains of analysis because that's just not how I do things. I used to, for sure. Then I got too invested in mafia, ate a 6 month ban for saying some things that maybe shouldn't have been said in a game, and came back more chill, more willing to just vibe with threads, and more willing to just make statements and let what happens happen instead of trying to make vociferous pushes.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 17:09
like i will say my first reaction to how you responded to me was "oshi-what if im wrong" and i was trying to open up that lane for possible discussion so as to demonstrate for me where i went wrong in reading you
yeah... in F3 it isn't my job to convince you that you're wrong, it's my job to convince katze you're wrong.
yeah... in F3 it isn't my job to convince you that you're wrong, it's my job to convince katze you're wrong.
if you are town then it is in fact your job to convince me i am wrong. because i am town.
I don't understand at all what is difficult about this question: Was my analysis of the EOD1 wagons and then run-up to actual EOD itself TMI or legit analysis/thoughts?
Like if you think I'm the last wolf the slam dunk answer is "HK had TMI and that's why he's so accurate there" and here's the rub even if I am wrong in that analysis and you are miscleared when it's really katze who is clear that is STILL the slam dunk answer for wolf?Sleep.
tbh I feel like you perceive that post as bait and are struggling with how to answer it. Town convinced of their purity and convinced of my guilt says "yeah, I think that's TMI, there's only one wolf left and the way you're clearing people doesn't make sense / isn't logical / advances a chops agenda you need to win".
Wolf Sleep tho has to determine whether or not this is a bait post and therefore has a harder time responding to it / engaging with it.
i did think the way you were clearing people looked like agenda, yeah
i just thought it was a super weird question to ask? like you go "if i arrived at a legitimate and correct conclusion then it's katze" but that statement is on its face obvious because i am town and if i assume for a moment that you are town then katze is the only possible answer left, so saying that doesn't mean a whole lot to me? it's genuinely super confusing. it did scare me as to the possibility i might be wrong on you though.
My play doesn't have mountains of analysis because that's just not how I do things. I used to, for sure. Then I got too invested in mafia, ate a 6 month ban for saying some things that maybe shouldn't have been said in a game, and came back more chill, more willing to just vibe with threads, and more willing to just make statements and let what happens happen instead of trying to make vociferous pushes.
at any rate from the games i'm reading i think you're selling yourself short. you're still more than capable - and i don't mean that as a insult to your play this game, i swear.
but what i have to ask is - what makes you assume i'm mafia pushing you on something you believe is not alignment indicative for you, rather than town who simply doesn't understand your playstyle?
it is going to suck if i am town who has misfired and gotten into a retaliatory death tunnel. i kinda think the evidence points against that but the possibility weighs on me. i suppose i should do due diligence on katze as well
https://fol-archive.netlify.app/t/vfm-mountainous-15er-town-wins/79786!page=257.html
the abovementioned towngame if you realllly care (its a pretty funny read tbh)omg you are so precious in this game katze its unbelievable
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 18:58
if you are town then it is in fact your job to convince me i am wrong. because i am town.
with all due respect I have to disagree with you. I feel like my job here is to be obvs town. To make it crystal clear to whomever is reading my posts I am town. Big blinking lights, the whole works.
I feel like I've done that this game. I feel like I have been obvs town. I feel like my play stands on its own two feet.
Your job, if you are town, is to recognize that, and to be obvs town yourself.
If you are a wolf your job is to paint someone, anyone, as a wolf and get them chopped.
trying to read a katze ISO on MU might send me into a coma
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 19:03
i did think the way you were clearing people looked like agenda, yeah
i just thought it was a super weird question to ask? like you go "if i arrived at a legitimate and correct conclusion then it's katze" but that statement is on its face obvious because i am town and if i assume for a moment that you are town then katze is the only possible answer left, so saying that doesn't mean a whole lot to me? it's genuinely super confusing. it did scare me as to the possibility i might be wrong on you though.
It's not a weird question at all. If you're town and you're trying to solve the game in good faith the first question you should be asking, and the first thing you should be trying to figure out, is this: were HKs early/mid game reads TMI informed or not?
If they are it's again a slam dunk, HK wolf. If they're not, then again slam dunk HK town. You're still weaseling around it.
But ok, you say "the way you were clearing people looked like agenda" so why isn't that something you're trying to make Katze realize? Katze is the one that you need to convince here that I am a wolf, not me.
You're posting as if you're trying to convince ME that I'm the last wolf. That's what I don't understand. You're not trying to engage with Katze or show them "hey look at these things, here's my thoughts on HK, lets have a dialog because I believe you're town and I believe we win with an HK chop".
In fact that's a question I'm not sure I've seen you answer: Is Katze town and if so, why?
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 19:07
at any rate from the games i'm reading i think you're selling yourself short. you're still more than capable - and i don't mean that as a insult to your play this game, i swear.
but what i have to ask is - what makes you assume i'm mafia pushing you on something you believe is not alignment indicative for you, rather than town who simply doesn't understand your playstyle?
Because your posting feels like a browbeating more than it does an earnest attempt to understand my alignment.
You said yourself you came into today with the solve, it's me. Your posts today are designed to make that solve look accurate. They're not being made to dialog with anyone, they're made to paint the picture you want to paint.
I'm a firm believer that playstyle differences can (and should) be able to be overcome by the time you get to F3. We've been playing this game for quite a while now and my style and tone haven't changed since the beginning.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 19:10
something else I want to mention before I forget about it.
Why are we all here is a question that should be asked.
I believe I'm here because I can be pushed easier than Dobby could have been, and because I've been vociferously wrong on all the chops I've voted for thus far.
Sleep why are you here?
katze why are you here?
with all due respect I have to disagree with you. I feel like my job here is to be obvs town. To make it crystal clear to whomever is reading my posts I am town. Big blinking lights, the whole works.
I feel like I've done that this game. I feel like I have been obvs town. I feel like my play stands on its own two feet.
Your job, if you are town, is to recognize that, and to be obvs town yourself.
If you are a wolf your job is to paint someone, anyone, as a wolf and get them chopped.
i disagree philosophically with this choice, but even regardless of whether one is the "best" way to play:
we don't have the mechanical confirmation that locked votes/majority brings. even if we go by how you want to play it and the rest of us accept that you are obvious town, you still need to actually vote mafia.
i feel like...i should be clearly town regardless of how i've played. always have. i've been trying to find mafia all game, albeit unsuccessfully. but the way i've played isn't really conducive to winning as mafia, i can't fake the level of thought i've had about this game as mafia. ladd doesn't lolbus me day 1 as mafia.
at the end of the day to win the game the two of us who are town have to vote correctly. the mafia wins if this does not happen. we can stand here and everyone can crow all day about how they are obvious town but that does not bring us any close to winning. only finding the mafia does.
It's not a weird question at all. If you're town and you're trying to solve the game in good faith the first question you should be asking, and the first thing you should be trying to figure out, is this: were HKs early/mid game reads TMI informed or not?
If they are it's again a slam dunk, HK wolf. If they're not, then again slam dunk HK town. You're still weaseling around it.
But ok, you say "the way you were clearing people looked like agenda" so why isn't that something you're trying to make Katze realize? Katze is the one that you need to convince here that I am a wolf, not me.
You're posting as if you're trying to convince ME that I'm the last wolf. That's what I don't understand. You're not trying to engage with Katze or show them "hey look at these things, here's my thoughts on HK, lets have a dialog because I believe you're town and I believe we win with an HK chop".
In fact that's a question I'm not sure I've seen you answer: Is Katze town and if so, why?
i...was trying to engage with katze, a lot. i dot know where you get that i am not. my whole start of today (real-time) was trying to persuade her
but the only reason i am talking to you here is that I AM AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY I COULD BE WRONG. I DON'T WANT TO SHUT YOU OUT IF THAT IS THE CASE BECAUSE THAT LOSES THE GAME.
very obviously, i thought coming into today that katze was town and you were not. that has been my lean the entire day. yesterday i thought the way she was analyzing the game looked real and the wolves talked to her in a way that looked unpartnered, differently from how you were talking to them.
but i would be lying if i said i was 100% confident. that's why i am saying i want to do research. and your posts are scaring the crap out of me, because they make me feel like i might be wrong about you
(and yes i realize i was willing to snapvote etc but that is owed to personal philosophy, if we have time im not going to afk and do nothing)
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 19:21
i disagree philosophically with this choice, but even regardless of whether one is the "best" way to play:
we don't have the mechanical confirmation that locked votes/majority brings. even if we go by how you want to play it and the rest of us accept that you are obvious town, you still need to actually vote mafia.
i feel like...i should be clearly town regardless of how i've played. always have. i've been trying to find mafia all game, albeit unsuccessfully. but the way i've played isn't really conducive to winning as mafia, i can't fake the level of thought i've had about this game as mafia. ladd doesn't lolbus me day 1 as mafia.
at the end of the day to win the game the two of us who are town have to vote correctly. the mafia wins if this does not happen. we can stand here and everyone can crow all day about how they are obvious town but that does not bring us any close to winning. only finding the mafia does.
yes and no. The two townies don't need to find the wolf per se, they can find each other.
I'm going to spend the next 20ish hours looking for the townie between you and katze.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 19:22
i...was trying to engage with katze, a lot. i dot know where you get that i am not. my whole start of today (real-time) was trying to persuade her
but the only reason i am talking to you here is that I AM AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY I COULD BE WRONG. I DON'T WANT TO SHUT YOU OUT IF THAT IS THE CASE BECAUSE THAT LOSES THE GAME.
very obviously, i thought coming into today that katze was town and you were not. that has been my lean the entire day. yesterday i thought the way she was analyzing the game looked real and the wolves talked to her in a way that looked unpartnered, differently from how you were talking to them.
but i would be lying if i said i was 100% confident. that's why i am saying i want to do research. and your posts are scaring the crap out of me, because they make me feel like i might be wrong about you
good.
Like not in a shitty way, but good nonetheless.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 19:23
there's only a combined 900ish posts between the two of you, should be just a bit of light reading.
cries
Because your posting feels like a browbeating more than it does an earnest attempt to understand my alignment.
You said yourself you came into today with the solve, it's me. Your posts today are designed to make that solve look accurate. They're not being made to dialog with anyone, they're made to paint the picture you want to paint.
I'm a firm believer that playstyle differences can (and should) be able to be overcome by the time you get to F3. We've been playing this game for quite a while now and my style and tone haven't changed since the beginning.
yes i came in thinking it was you and presenting the reasons why. you are right that they were meant to be persuasive rather than aimed at creating a dialogue. but i like to think i am receptive to hearing why i might be wrong and you certainly have answered that.
something else I want to mention before I forget about it.
Why are we all here is a question that should be asked.
I believe I'm here because I can be pushed easier than Dobby could have been, and because I've been vociferously wrong on all the chops I've voted for thus far.
Sleep why are you here?
katze why are you here?
i'm here because i've been wrong all game but not suspicious enough to get chopped. i didnt have nearly as good reasons to be towncleared as everyone who was NKed and im not a particularly renowned scumhunter
if you're mafia you're booming the hell out of me right now with the way you're posting. i know this goes against my philosophy for f3s but goddamn
nya
i expected to be here sooner but then i broke a glass cup and had to clean that up
fwiw a lot of the questions i ask are things that i want answers for behind the scenes, i already said earlier the initial batch i thought your answers were better. both of your answers were decent so i was like "ok" and didnt think too much of it?
from what ive seen+having been the wolf being asked that question wolves usually have worse answers
gira:
why did you let cape go? you were more vocal about cape V than you were about wisp V in artemis fowl (from what it sounds like, i havent read it too closely yet) but in that game you were willing to toss cuth and in this game you let yourself get talked into cape w
at any point during D4/D5 did you think of cape going over like a similar mistake to letting wisp go over?
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 20:08
if you're mafia you're booming the hell out of me right now with the way you're posting. i know this goes against my philosophy for f3s but goddamn
just b/c I enjoy being super chill doesn't mean I can't be not super chill when the time comes. Like the push on me aside you're posting well, it's just that I know you're wrong.
something else I want to mention before I forget about it.
Why are we all here is a question that should be asked.
I believe I'm here because I can be pushed easier than Dobby could have been, and because I've been vociferously wrong on all the chops I've voted for thus far.
Sleep why are you here?
katze why are you here?
probably one part #TheFear and one part ive been PoEd too much to afford NKing since im always liable to be tinfoiled in F3. the consensus PoE for multiple phases has involved me dying
i've not eaten the rope because... honestly i don't know. i feel like i should have, i wanted to at multiple points because i don't want to be here. i've been found as a villager for a lot of the past few phases because i am one, but here i am
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 20:10
i'm here because i've been wrong all game but not suspicious enough to get chopped. i didnt have nearly as good reasons to be towncleared as everyone who was NKed and im not a particularly renowned scumhunter
lol that's a mood for sure.
Maybe I asked the wrong question though? Perhaps "Why did the last wolf bring you to F3" is the better question?
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 20:11
I think all of us basically answered "we're here to be the mistake for the win / make the wrong decision"
omg you are so precious in this game katze its unbelievable
dude newbie katze was such a fucking cutie i know idk what happened to me along the way
if the archive worked better id tell you to iso chloe in that game too because it's legitimately a gold mine (its her first game ever)
trying to read a katze ISO on MU might send me into a coma
oops
gira:
why did you let cape go? you were more vocal about cape V than you were about wisp V in artemis fowl (from what it sounds like, i havent read it too closely yet) but in that game you were willing to toss cuth and in this game you let yourself get talked into cape w
at any point during D4/D5 did you think of cape going over like a similar mistake to letting wisp go over?
i got scared
if someone in the game i strongly townread is loudly shouting that someone is mafia i will cave more often than not and dobby did enough to make me doubt my hk read
just b/c I enjoy being super chill doesn't mean I can't be not super chill when the time comes. Like the push on me aside you're posting well, it's just that I know you're wrong.
nah you're still chill honestly, i just mean i am shook
lol that's a mood for sure.
Maybe I asked the wrong question though? Perhaps "Why did the last wolf bring you to F3" is the better question?
eh
i think dobby was unlikely to get voted here. i realize you have said you suspected him but either 1. you are the mafia ad that is a lie or 2. katze is the mafia and did not believe you when you said that. i think ultimately his WIM was seen as the biggest threat
i just realized that i dreamt about this game last night
lmao
i just realized that i dreamt about this game last night
lmao
what was the dream
i had a dream the previous day that it was actually doctorzeus
what was the dream
i had a dream the previous day that it was actually doctorzeus
LMAO
i had a dream that dead players were allowed to post after the 24h mark and they kept burying hollowkatt
and then newcomb sent a gif from a movie that i literally cnanot remember and i was like "fuck this" and voted you over HK and was right and then got called a good villager
which i guess means even in my dreams votes are locked
newcomb sent an offensive gif*
important context
also im reading artemis fowl closer
might have another Q for you in a bit but i need to check something else
speaking of newcomb sending gifs: gemma and newcomb have impressive gif games
also kinda feel better about one of my micro concerns on you but it was a small one
gira, how much experience do you have with cuth?
like can you link some games you two have played together in the past, preferably with every combination of alignments but most important v/v and w(you)/v(him)
gira, how much experience do you have with cuth?
like can you link some games you two have played together in the past, preferably with every combination of alignments but most important v/v and w(you)/v(him)
uh it was that game and the SK 18er visor hosted on MU, where he was mafia and i misread him day 1 and dobby shot him as sk
that is the sum total aside from a turbo which we have established are not real
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/31167
there is the SK game
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