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uh it was that game and the SK 18er visor hosted on MU, where he was mafia and i misread him day 1 and dobby shot him as sk
that is the sum total aside from a turbo which we have established are not real
less than i expected but okay
what do you think led you to misreading him this game as opposed to in artemis fowl?
uh confirmation bias based on past experience limited sample size/not understanding his play/him not having time and his head not being in the game
he very much had me fooled in artemis fowl until i went back to read for spew and found that he looked kinda bad
turns out i'm just not that good at reading him (or anyone)
nod
gonna eat and then do More Reading and then... hopefully realtime again
@HK why have you been so confidently TRing me this game? idt you answered it earlier but if you did you can throw me to that answer instead
oh wait
gira can you link the HK games you were talking about earlier
ill probably look for a few of my own regardless but figure i ask
oh wait
gira can you link the HK games you were talking about earlier
ill probably look for a few of my own regardless but figure i ask
bluey on the syndicate (https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2119) (mafia f3 win)
Bardcore Mafia (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32601) (mafia f3 loss)
Deck Mafia #004 (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32699) (town, died n2 - i only got partway into this before i got interrupted)
i was looking at SCI as well to get a sense of how he talked about partners in that but i am kkinda seeing pre- and post-ban hollowkatt as two different entities
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 21:16
nod
gonna eat and then do More Reading and then... hopefully realtime again
@HK why have you been so confidently TRing me this game? idt you answered it earlier but if you did you can throw me to that answer instead
Mostly how different your play has been here vs the games I know you were wolf either by experience or by watching.
vote: katze
this is either a legendary throw or the ballsiest thing i have ever done
anyway it's 4:30 on a friday and i'm going to go pass out
Mostly how different your play has been here vs the games I know you were wolf either by experience or by watching.
man. i want it to be sleep so i can tell people that im way easier to read than people actually say i am but i am still a tiny bit hung up by this confidence just by my rep
maybe i should stop focusing on my rep given its part of what made me suspect newcomb :/
vote: katze
this is either a legendary throw or the ballsiest thing i have ever done
anyway it's 4:30 on a friday and i'm going to go pass out
at least im not alone in "being tired at 4:30 pm on a friday"
i dont rly get how you see that vote change as a throw (ive made it clear i lean you so regardless v!you kinda needs to hope im mafia) or ballsy (the consensus PoE has had me in it since like D2) but ig its going against your claimed f3 philosophy
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 21:45
Sleep are you more of a "go along with the crowd" player or are you more of a "strike out on your own" player when it comes to pushes you want to make?
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 22:14
man. i want it to be sleep so i can tell people that im way easier to read than people actually say i am but i am still a tiny bit hung up by this confidence just by my rep
maybe i should stop focusing on my rep given its part of what made me suspect newcomb :/
at least im not alone in "being tired at 4:30 pm on a friday"
i dont rly get how you see that vote change as a throw (ive made it clear i lean you so regardless v!you kinda needs to hope im mafia) or ballsy (the consensus PoE has had me in it since like D2) but ig its going against your claimed f3 philosophy
tbh the only reason I even arrived at that conclusion is because of how you played Submissive and Bullyable. Your champze run has less to do with it, but still somewhat impactful.
Basically in this game you feel like it's important to you to be right/accurate and in those games it feels like it was more important to you to be liked
At least till you needed to turn it on anyways.
hollowkatt
05-06-2022, 22:45
katze do you feel like you are more analytical or more fly by the seat of your pants?
i dont rly get how you see that vote change as a throw (ive made it clear i lean you so regardless v!you kinda needs to hope im mafia) or ballsy (the consensus PoE has had me in it since like D2) but ig its going against your claimed f3 philosophy
because if i had the solve and talked myself out of it on a momentary impulse despite me having lost multiple games doing this exact thing and knowing its a bad idea its an all rime bad play
Sleep are you more of a "go along with the crowd" player or are you more of a "strike out on your own" player when it comes to pushes you want to make?
uh
it really depends
i think my natural inclination is kind of to want to play the hero, to catch the scum no one else sees
however in a game where i have been proven wrong/other people seem to have a stronger grasp of it, i will go along with the crowd. if someone yells at me loud enough i usually buckle because i usually feel like i have a desire to be validated in my thinking
Players Votes
katze 1 (Sleep)
Sleep 1 (hollowkatt)
because if i had the solve and talked myself out of it on a momentary impulse despite me having lost multiple games doing this exact thing and knowing its a bad idea its an all rime bad play
i should add: i dont play this as town by making the vote that has the highest likelihood of the other person siding with me
i vote for who i believe is mafia
i voted cuth even though killjoy was likely to hammer me (and did) because i thought cuth was mafia (and i was right)
if i believed with all my heart that you were town i have 24 hours to spend pleading with you trying to convince you its not me and i would use them
but i have started to believe its you
tbh the only reason I even arrived at that conclusion is because of how you played Submissive and Bullyable. Your champze run has less to do with it, but still somewhat impactful.
Basically in this game you feel like it's important to you to be right/accurate and in those games it feels like it was more important to you to be liked
At least till you needed to turn it on anyways.
fair enough and honestly pretty accurate interpretation of my wolfmeta
katze do you feel like you are more analytical or more fly by the seat of your pants?
absolutely the latter, very much so a viber/realtimer
im sometimes analytical but it's tiring for me cause my attention span is rly short so its not super often. i force it out of myself when i feel like i need to be but its not my preferred method of play
like today i am definitely forcing myself to play differently than i'd prefer to. id much rather just vote off of vibes but im making myself go through isos and stuff because i feel like i need to
because if i had the solve and talked myself out of it on a momentary impulse despite me having lost multiple games doing this exact thing and knowing its a bad idea its an all rime bad play
honestly i think it's you so im not that worried about your view of me
but if it's not you then you're doing just that :p
honestly i think it's you so im not that worried about your view of me
but if it's not you then you're doing just that :p
i dont really see how you think that
i dont really see how you think that
how i think it's you?
okay well my suspicion of you has lasted multiple days so... it's not a new development nor is it something i've not explained
i think the wolves interactions with you are wack
i think you've pushed an agenda way more than HK
i get worse ✨vibes✨ from your posts
im not ironclad on it being you, because you do have a handful of posts i look at and think "this would be kinda wild for a wolf to write" but you have other posts where i think they fit exactly what w!you would write in that moment
i think your play today has also been jarring but i'm aware that F3 is its own beast and am trying to not let that sway me too much
wait holy shit that emoji worked
progress
��test��
aw
anyway i have a couple concerns on HK and do think that if i read both your posts from the perspective of "a wolf whos aiming to get to F3" HK fits the bill way more and that's my biggest hangup there. i think his confidence on the katze TR is weird as well but i don't think i'm going to get anywhere talking about that and his interpretation of my metas is pretty aligned with what i think of my own meta so...
if i listen to dead villagers most of them would probably tell me it's HK over you but almost none of them actually suspected either of you two very much so it's not exactly something i'm sure i can sheep
okay well my suspicion of you has lasted multiple days so... it's not a new development nor is it something i've not explained
i think the wolves interactions with you are wack
i think you've pushed an agenda way more than HK
i get worse ✨vibes✨ from your posts
im not ironclad on it being you, because you do have a handful of posts i look at and think "this would be kinda wild for a wolf to write" but you have other posts where i think they fit exactly what w!you would write in that moment
i think your play today has also been jarring but i'm aware that F3 is its own beast and am trying to not let that sway me too much
i dont recall it happening prior to yesterday (game-wise)
the interactions with me are blatantly not w/w in any instance and idk how you could think otherwise
how do u differentiate "pushing an agenda" from "trying to find a wolf" when there is 1 wolf left? what distinguishes someone who is trying to solve from someone who is trying to eliminate towns? why is my behavior wolfier than simply going with the flow
(i have wanted to say "ur vibes are off" here for a while now but it'd come off as cheeky when i really don't want to right now)
i dont recall it happening prior to yesterday (game-wise)
the interactions with me are blatantly not w/w in any instance and idk how you could think otherwise
how do u differentiate "pushing an agenda" from "trying to find a wolf" when there is 1 wolf left? what distinguishes someone who is trying to solve from someone who is trying to eliminate towns? why is my behavior wolfier than simply going with the flow
(i have wanted to say "ur vibes are off" here for a while now but it'd come off as cheeky when i really don't want to right now)
i meant multiple days calendar wise not gamephase wise, there might have been some tinfoiling 2 phases ago but idr
and like i said earlier. i need to revisit your interactions with ladd. i earlier agreed with you and thought EVERY FLIPPED WOLF commenting on your identity was clearing but i'm no longer sure if that's the case. i think your interactions with ender and vice versa are pretty wack. the jury is still up on ladd/you.
i've been almost exclusively reading D1/D2 wrt the "pushing agenda" thing for this exact reason and i don't know how you haven't noticed that
(they probably are, im here out of obligation and im still tilted about the fact this phase is playing out 48 hours)
and like i said earlier. i need to revisit your interactions with ladd. i earlier agreed with you and thought EVERY FLIPPED WOLF commenting on your identity was clearing but i'm no longer sure if that's the case. i think your interactions with ender and vice versa are pretty wack. the jury is still up on ladd/you. i dont care that i was wrong on ender. he was very obviously buddying up to me with everything i said. iwas wrong it happens. but those interactions are self-evidently never w/w. wolves dont act like that ever. i certainly dont play it that way. please try to demonstrate to me a world in which you believe those could be w/w. show me where you have seen mafia teammates act to each other the way ender and i acted.
this is to say absolutely nothing of how i am literally never ever with monstrdude, not in a million years. i did not want to invoke this but the fact that you are trying to use this against me is absurd
i've been almost exclusively reading D1/D2 wrt the "pushing agenda" thing for this exact reason and i don't know how you haven't noticed thatagain, WTF does this mean? why am I "pushing agenda" because I had actual reads and pushed for them even if they are wrong?? why is trying to be active and have an opinion wolfier than hanging back and going with the flow?
i dont care that i was wrong on ender. he was very obviously buddying up to me with everything i said. iwas wrong it happens. but those interactions are self-evidently never w/w. wolves dont act like that ever. i certainly dont play it that way. please try to demonstrate to me a world in which you believe those could be w/w. show me where you have seen mafia teammates act to each other the way ender and i acted.
this is to say absolutely nothing of how i am literally never ever with monstrdude, not in a million years. i did not want to invoke this but the fact that you are trying to use this against me is absurd
again, WTF does this mean? why am I "pushing agenda" because I had actual reads and pushed for them even if they are wrong?? why is trying to be active and have an opinion wolfier than hanging back and going with the flow?
i really can't be bothered to "demonstrate a world" to you right now, ask me later. i saw approximately zero clearing interactions between you and ender. plausibly some between you and ladd.
you and monstr can absolutely be w/w???? the dude clearly had a moment and you had absolutely nothing to do with it? he snapped at raskol. if you're going to say "ooo monstr said he hated me that's not w/w" then he said he hated everyone so clearly he's not wolves with anyone and his flip was tailored! wowee! seriously though. i don't believe for a second you believe that and it's not cool to bring up.
and i... already explained what it means. zzz
i am an obvious villager and if you deny that you are a wolf
and you seen to be grasping at straws for justifications
i feel like i know exactly what you're doing lmao
and no, votes arent locked so it's not significant anyway
i've already said i'm not 100% on it being you
im an obvious villager and if you deny that, you're a wolf :3
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 00:13
uh
it really depends
i think my natural inclination is kind of to want to play the hero, to catch the scum no one else sees
however in a game where i have been proven wrong/other people seem to have a stronger grasp of it, i will go along with the crowd. if someone yells at me loud enough i usually buckle because i usually feel like i have a desire to be validated in my thinking
so in this game specifically then you'd be more likely to "play the hero" on D1, perhaps D2, but as the game went on and you were consistently wrong you would follow along more.
Is that a fair statement to make?
on a completely unrelated note why did you vote katze with your first post of the game?
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 00:15
fair enough and honestly pretty accurate interpretation of my wolfmeta
absolutely the latter, very much so a viber/realtimer
im sometimes analytical but it's tiring for me cause my attention span is rly short so its not super often. i force it out of myself when i feel like i need to be but its not my preferred method of play
like today i am definitely forcing myself to play differently than i'd prefer to. id much rather just vote off of vibes but im making myself go through isos and stuff because i feel like i need to
I do tend to notice a lot more things than I actually talk about so I'm glad you think I've gotten your wolf meta fairly accurately.
I'm asking these "weird" questions for reasons, I'll explain more when I have something I think is legit to talk about. But thank you for answering.
so in this game specifically then you'd be more likely to "play the hero" on D1, perhaps D2, but as the game went on and you were consistently wrong you would follow along more.
Is that a fair statement to make?
on a completely unrelated note why did you vote katze with your first post of the game?
i would say that's close to accurate, yes
i feel like...as things went along, i explored alternate theories and presented them but lost the confidence in pushing them strongly. this was kind of like how yesterday i was sussing you but didnt have the courage to go "omg everyone it's hk", and when i tried casing you i lost the will halfway through
i think it was just because it was rvs and you had voted katze, so putting another vote on her would be a wagon. i'm used to a style of play where more often people vote early and move their votes around a lot
i feel like i know exactly what you're doing lmao
and no, votes arent locked so it's not significant anyway
i've already said i'm not 100% on it being you
im an obvious villager and if you deny that, you're a wolf :3
what i am doing is declaring myself an obvious villager and you a wolf for claiming that i am not
i am locking my vote on you and not moving
why should i believe ur an obvious villager?
what i am doing is declaring myself an obvious villager and you a wolf for claiming that i am not
i am locking my vote on you and not moving
why should i believe ur an obvious villager?
are you trying to be obnoxious on purpose
if you're such an obvious villager than are both me and hollowkatt wolves for not seeing it?
are you trying to be obnoxious on purpose
if you're such an obvious villager than are both me and hollowkatt wolves for not seeing it?
no, i'm making a stand because i think the way you're playing right now is scummy and i'm trying to pin you to the wall for it. you can hardly give a straight answer for any of the things you are saying.
hollowkatt declared that he's keeping his vote on me because he didn't like how he responded to me. maybe he's serious, maybe he isn't. that is not my problem. what he has said makes sense to me. what you have said does not make sense.
you think im scummy for not townreading you
lol.
lmao.
rofl, even
you have fun with that, i'll figure out later if i care
i think your words do not come from a legitimate place of inquiry and your justifications for your reasoning are incredibly poor. i do not think you are trying to solve. i think you are trying to give the appearance of doing things without actually doing anything because your goal is to not get voted.
like what were all those questions for me earlier supposed to be? did any of it actually matter to you? did you care about the answers or were you looking to fill airspace?
okay well. if i were mafia i'd absolutely have an easier time pushing HK today after yesterday, but whatever
on the off chance you're just wilding out as a villager then get off your fucking high horse
otherwise carry on, you brought me to F3 for a reason
like what were all those questions for me earlier supposed to be? did any of it actually matter to you? did you care about the answers or were you looking to fill airspace?
i asked lylo questions that i've seen work pretty well in the past
both of your answers were fine and better than ~most mafia answers
i specifically pointed out that i thought yours was better
but okay go off ig
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 00:45
i would say that's close to accurate, yes
i feel like...as things went along, i explored alternate theories and presented them but lost the confidence in pushing them strongly. this was kind of like how yesterday i was sussing you but didnt have the courage to go "omg everyone it's hk", and when i tried casing you i lost the will halfway through
i think it was just because it was rvs and you had voted katze, so putting another vote on her would be a wagon. i'm used to a style of play where more often people vote early and move their votes around a lot
Thanks, I appreciate it. Like I told Katze I'll come back to these "weird questions" as soon as I have something I think is legit worth talking about.
gira did you ever actually read any of the games i linked you other than the cute one
because if you want to play the "im an obvious villager" game then this f3 is wildly far to how i'd play it as mafia too, lmao
okay well. if i were mafia i'd absolutely have an easier time pushing HK today after yesterday, but whatever
on the off chance you're just wilding out as a villager then get off your fucking high horse
otherwise carry on, you brought me to F3 for a reason
"if i were mafia" arguments of this type are unpersuasive to me. they are easily manipulated and there are any number of psyhological factors that could be in play as to why you would not want to push hk as mafia. maybe you think you can justify fosing me easier. maybe you are worried about taking on hk and see me as an easier push. maybe you believ by not giving me validation i would work harder to try to get you on my side. i have seen it a lot. so color me unconvinced by this.
i make no apologies for being self-righteous when you are pushing me with incredibly bad arguments. i will stand my ground when i believe it is my place to do so. more often than not when someone comes at me with a case and i smack down all their points and they go "yeah but still" it is because they are mafia. that is what is happening with you right now.
what are you doing right now, what is your headspace, how are you attempting to figure out who is mafia? where is something, anything, that should give me reason to believe you are not mafia?
gira did you ever actually read any of the games i linked you other than the cute one
because if you want to play the "im an obvious villager" game then this f3 is wildly far to how i'd play it as mafia too, lmao
i am like, 7 pages of the way into dragonvale but it is hard for me to get a ton out of it. generally i look for patterns in play, responses to pressure and partner interactions but obviously not a lot of that last one to go off
and okay - i'm all ears. how would you play this as mafia? why should I believe you are town? i may be coming off as entitled but if i am wrong you are free to be entitled as well
because i can very much just as easily play the card that I would not have pushed hollowkatt to open the day when you had seemingly stood by your townread if him from yesterday
i am like, 7 pages of the way into dragonvale but it is hard for me to get a ton out of it. generally i look for patterns in play, responses to pressure and partner interactions but obviously not a lot of that last one to go off
and okay - i'm all ears. how would you play this as mafia? why should I believe you are town? i may be coming off as entitled but if i am wrong you are free to be entitled as well
oh, i did read the endgame of dragonvale as a comparison check to how you have played here. a bunch of busywork wallposts to open the day, some arguments about why you were town, and then kind of hanging back and playing it safe while waiting for one of the town to make the first misstep
i am logging off to watch tv
i will return tomorrow
i make no apologies for being self-righteous when you are pushing me with incredibly bad arguments. i will stand my ground when i believe it is my place to do so. more often than not when someone comes at me with a case and i smack down all their points and they go "yeah but still" it is because they are mafia. that is what is happening with you right now.
what are you doing right now, what is your headspace, how are you attempting to figure out who is mafia? where is something, anything, that should give me reason to believe you are not mafia?
i don't believe you're "smacking down" my points at all... i think your interactions with ender can easily be w/w, you disagree. okay, i'm not going to lay it all out. it's not going to convince you that you're a wolf if you're not one and if you are one then you're just going to say "how is that ever aligned" anyway. there's no fucking point. i've already said... three times now? that i'll evaluate your interactions with ladd closer. because i do believe that, if there is anything i can glean from dead wolves that can help me find you, it is that.
...with that said i have not gotten around to this yet and don't reallly intend on changing that right now.
what i am doing right now is being here. not very much more. i'm here because i have the game stuck on my mind. i'd love to just go back to playing video games but alas. i don't really have that much motivation to Do Much right now. so i'm not forcing myself to. i'm engaging with you on the off chance you are a villager because i don't want to throw the game because i'm petty. i've spent most of this day phase trying to figure who the imposter among us is, i've reread the entirety of your D1 and D2 ISOs and asked questions i thought would give me the most AI answers. i'm engaging with the thread because i read players largely off of realtiming and vibes.
i'll answer the last question with the next post because they're tangentially related anyway
i am like, 7 pages of the way into dragonvale but it is hard for me to get a ton out of it. generally i look for patterns in play, responses to pressure and partner interactions but obviously not a lot of that last one to go off
and okay - i'm all ears. how would you play this as mafia? why should I believe you are town? i may be coming off as entitled but if i am wrong you are free to be entitled as well
why am i town? because my rolecard says so! badum-tss
okay fine. my wolf game is mostly like... effort. a wim machine. i'm not going to say "i'm a villager because it's obvious i don't really care that much this game" but it's probably true. im not going to say "im a villager because dobby had more posts than me" but it's probably also true. at multiple points during this game i asked to be killed because i didn't want to be here. obviously that's wifom, but i don't think i try to argue with the confirmed town sorcerer about how i'm an optimal bomb target as mafia because... they might just take it seriously, lol.
as hollowkatt said i'm very much so a people pleaser as mafia. although i've honestly grown to be more of one as town too, because i believe strongly in town cohesion and stopping arguments i believe are v/v. (im not saying i cant get into stupid arguments such as this one, because i'm also prone to those. i'd likely be trying harder to)
i'm also pretty cheeky as wolf and like making those "hehe" jokes i can point back to in postgame and say "lol, lmao" and love subtly openwolfing but that's. probably not something that reading my iso during a game can really get you to very often. especially with how often i make stupid jokes as town too.
oh and i also also make a lot of wifomy kills. i think w!me would very likely kill hollowkatt and say it's a framing job or something. in DV i shot a PoEish player N2 just because they were tunneling me. i also killed illario going into LyLo which was the most blatant kill that led to me by a significant margin
what i don't do as mafia is shoot myself in the foot constantly. i don't defend wolves who are dead in the water. i don't constantly say how much i dislike the prospect of the current wagon formations if they're literally all villagers... if town is doing my work for me then i'll fucking let them. especially if i can tell from early on in the game that i'm going to be playing for the long haul, and looking at the dead wolves, i think that was evident by N1 at the latest.
how i would likely play this F3 is take the path that's easier for me. after F5, that path is very likely pushing hollowkatt over you because cape died screaming you're always town and that he's probably the wolf. several villagers have died with you as a very strong townread. i could flat out just quote newcomb and say "lol bye HK" and get away with it. you were appealing to me in a way that i could have very easily pocketed you. i'm not quite sure if i kill dobby over you either but that's a hard perspective to actually think about.
but i'm not really appeasing to anyone. i'm not taking the "easy" path. i'm not doing any of that. i'm responding to you because i'm tired of dealing with you right now. i don't really want to be an ass so i'll leave it at that.
also because at first i thought you were trying to roleplay as illario during MyLo in DV and i kiiiiinda thought it was a bit over the top for a wolf trying to get a gotcha, but you made it clear it wasn't that so shrug.
because i can very much just as easily play the card that I would not have pushed hollowkatt to open the day when you had seemingly stood by your townread if him from yesterday
the difference is that me and HK have been townreading eachother and you have to push one of us
i don't really think w!you can afford to kill hollowkatt over dobby and i absolutely do not think w!you could afford to kill me over anyone
you've swapped over to pushing me while i've given the impression that i think it's you more confidently than i did earlier
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 01:24
because i can very much just as easily play the card that I would not have pushed hollowkatt to open the day when you had seemingly stood by your townread if him from yesterday
except that if you're the wolf you brought me because you could sus me without being questioned too much about it given that you've been tangentially associating me with the wolf team for the last game day or so even as you voted cape yesterday.
Whereas if the last wolf is Katze they brought me because I town read them and would be more likely to vote you instead of Katze.
Basically in Sleep wolf world I'm the mistake you're trying to get across the line and in Katze wolf worlds you're the mistake and I'm the patsy
as hollowkatt said i'm very much so a people pleaser as mafia. although i've honestly grown to be more of one as town too, because i believe strongly in town cohesion and stopping arguments i believe are v/v. (im not saying i cant get into stupid arguments such as this one, because i'm also prone to those. i'd likely be trying harder to)
oop
i forgot what my thought was when i typed that but i think it was along the lines of "change your mind instead of further instigating you"
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 01:48
Katze posting two above this one gives me something to think about.
I think Katze is right that wolf?Sleep can't afford to kill me and take Dobby/Katze. They can't afford to kill Katze and take Me/Dobby. They have to kill Dobby last night and go with Me/Katze.
Katze on the other hand could have killed Dobby to take Me/Sleep where I'm the pocketed one and Sleep is the victim.
But Alternately they could have killed Sleep and taken Me/Dobby where Dobby is then forced to re-evaluate whether or not I'm more or less town than Katze is.
I miss Raskol, he'd know what to do.
There also is this post from Dobby, his last one of any real content before the end of the day
im not gonna have time for more
if i do a prio order based on what i have right this moment id say cape -> katze -> sleep -> hk still
the hk read is mainly based on the ender interactions and if i had time to read more of hk i mightve placed him much lower.
where he clearly says he'd go Katze next.
So then the question becomes "does Katze have the cojones to kill the person who says they're next" vs "is the dobby kill meant to make Katze look worse".
There's also this post from Cape:
ugh, this wolf is deep but it's obviously katze or HK
5 days ago I said this:
I'm fairly confident it's not Katze or Cape.
You're obvs town and die tonight
Dobby is also obvs town and should die after you.
Benneh died b/c he was the towniest of all of us.
and the only people who were alive at the time that aren't mentioned are Raskol who I was responding to, and Sleep who goes unmentioned, and finally cuth who was the chop that day.
I have no idea where I was going with this tbh
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 02:29
moar
cape also says here 2973 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053831535&viewfull=1#post2053831535) that if F3 contains Sleep that the other two should cross vote.
Cape is also quoting a dobby post that I talk about next:
Dobby otoh was pretty convinced I make F3 but am town (which is why dobby is dead tbh), that Katze looks decent off the backs of digging into people in what looks like genuine ways, and has ender interactions where it reads like ender is trying to pocket katze with focus on persuading katze of stuff in situations that don't make sense for a w/w pairing.
He also says that his re-read of D1 had some pro-Sleep points but that he's been the most lenient against Sleep and if F3 contains the two of them it's the Sleep ISO that would get the deepest dive, but not until then.
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 02:54
man hk played a pretty sick game in f5 back in season 7
I told you I bullied people in my F(x) wolf wins
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 03:05
First of all:
Sleep is probably town. There is a minor assumption that probably isn't good but the nitpicky right off the bat is kinda rand!town IMO and I've just liked their content overall.
It was a fun wagon at the start and the memes were great, but honestly like I would not vote there any time soon.
On the other hand, I have reasons to believe this might be Cape's towngame. Or at least that he does several of the things he's being poked about as both alignments. I recently sussed them hard for a similar game and they were green that game.
Caveat that I haven't actually read a wolf game of theirs.
Oh also, Katze is town too. Lots of good head noddy posts from em. The snarky response about voting them out to Ladd was a meme about lyrical composition.
i lied im lurking
but yeah this post about kat was the post before that readslist (also i thought this was a 15er so someone else is prolly missing too)
yeah this other post im quoting exists too and i only read sleep there but youre in it too so my b (but its still the same read that ive pointed out a few times)
This also exists where Ender is town leaning Sleep and town reading Katze. Neither of which are very good town reads in terms of reasons why. The Cape read is probably the best of the two of them there.
Knowing that one of Sleep/Katze is a partner of Enders.... ugh this is fucking hard ok.
I know that one of the two of you is the last wolf. Katze spent the first part of the day being kinda hands off and meh and letting Sleep do most of the talking. Sleep spent his time focusing on me and didn't really shift attention to Katze till I countered his arguments with things that made him "shook".
So was Sleep anticipating my lackadaisical play during most days leading up to today remaining the same? Or is Sleep the townie who was cocksure it was HK and now that I've fought back he's re-evaluating his worlds?
Or is it Katze who I've been consistently town reading, except for like a day, who's counting on me remaining pocketed and chopping Sleep for the win.
I think though that the things we could "normally" rely on in F3 aren't here to rely on. Votes aren't locked, there's no jockeying for position, no trying to force the wolfiest person to vote first. None of that is available here. We're stuck doing this for 48 hours and minds (and votes) can be changed literally at 47:59 without any penalty.
Because of that nobody is feeling pressured to either get it right or get someone to be wrong. I mean there's still the whole "win or lose" pressure but there's not the voting dance that happens with locked votes.
We've used 24ish hours already, have approximately 24ish hours remain. Of those I plan to sleep for 8-10 of them. So really I've got 14-16 game hours left to make a decision on where I'm landing.
I still don't see a compelling reason to vote for Katze. I am still reading D1/D2, as well as doing some spot checking, and I still have to write my thoughts on the two questions I asked both of you earlier. I'll get to that tonight still.
Sometimes I like to push back from the desk, put my feet up, close my eyes and just have a think about the game. Put away the posts and vibe with my feelings. It doesn't often give me a solve but it does allow me to clear my head of my overly busy thoughts and let me try to put things into a different perspective.
I have some thoughts percolating on the concept of Town Sleep coming into F3 being so convinced I'm the last wolf after helping me chop Cape yesterday but they're not fully formed.
thought about the game in the shower ama
and by that i mean i remembered this post
im mulling over those posts and yeah its uh
strange
ender voting newcomb to get momentum there and then pulling it back to cape is strange
because...why would he do that to a partner??
otoh...why would he do it to a villager??
the short answer is probably he just did crazy things to mess with us and futz up associations and reading into it too deeply is going to drain your sanity meter
and im thinking sleep is weirdly fine with trying to shut me down on finding a reason to be v reading cape
shrugze
be back tomorrow
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 05:49
thought about the game in the shower ama
and by that i mean i remembered this post
and im thinking sleep is weirdly fine with trying to shut me down on finding a reason to be v reading cape
shrugze
be back tomorrow
Sparkle$ would say you're lock town b/c the shower tell is never wrong.
responding out of order because it was the first thing i saw
I know that one of the two of you is the last wolf. Katze spent the first part of the day being kinda hands off and meh and letting Sleep do most of the talking. Sleep spent his time focusing on me and didn't really shift attention to Katze till I countered his arguments with things that made him "shook".
So was Sleep anticipating my lackadaisical play during most days leading up to today remaining the same? Or is Sleep the townie who was cocksure it was HK and now that I've fought back he's re-evaluating his worlds? yes that is exactly what happened and its really not hard to tell
i came into today mostly convinced it was you but the way you responded to me was confusing because it didnt seem like scum and tthe posts you made all explaining your mindset all made sense to me
and there's this thing that happens in mafia games sometimes, don't know if you've ever experienced it, but sometimes you get deep in an argument with someone and you're flinging crap at them and going all out and then you just get this feeling that you're wrong and the other person might be town after all and that they believe all the things they are saying and that's what happened with you
Because of that nobody is feeling pressured to either get it right or get someone to be wrong. I mean there's still the whole "win or lose" pressure but there's not the voting dance that happens with locked votes. uhh speak for yourself on that account because i have been feeling incredibly pressured
I have some thoughts percolating on the concept of Town Sleep coming into F3 being so convinced I'm the last wolf after helping me chop Cape yesterday but they're not fully formed.
well go ahead whenever you're ready
except that if you're the wolf you brought me because you could sus me without being questioned too much about it given that you've been tangentially associating me with the wolf team for the last game day or so even as you voted cape yesterday.
Whereas if the last wolf is Katze they brought me because I town read them and would be more likely to vote you instead of Katze.
Basically in Sleep wolf world I'm the mistake you're trying to get across the line and in Katze wolf worlds you're the mistake and I'm the patsy
the point i am trying to make is that i pick fights i believe i can win, which would...not be you
i don't believe you're "smacking down" my points at all... i think your interactions with ender can easily be w/w, you disagree. okay, i'm not going to lay it all out. it's not going to convince you that you're a wolf if you're not one and if you are one then you're just going to say "how is that ever aligned" anyway. there's no fucking point. i've already said... three times now? that i'll evaluate your interactions with ladd closer. because i do believe that, if there is anything i can glean from dead wolves that can help me find you, it is that.
...with that said i have not gotten around to this yet and don't reallly intend on changing that right now.
what i am doing right now is being here. not very much more. i'm here because i have the game stuck on my mind. i'd love to just go back to playing video games but alas. i don't really have that much motivation to Do Much right now. so i'm not forcing myself to. i'm engaging with you on the off chance you are a villager because i don't want to throw the game because i'm petty. i've spent most of this day phase trying to figure who the imposter among us is, i've reread the entirety of your D1 and D2 ISOs and asked questions i thought would give me the most AI answers. i'm engaging with the thread because i read players largely off of realtiming and vibes.you have had 24 hours and have gotten basically nowhere and your lingering suspicion of me is off tangentially the idea that i could plausibly be associated with flipped mafia except you can only give the most weaselly half-assed justifications that you immediately retreat from when i call you on them being bad
this is incredibly lazy and i refuse to believe you'd play this way as town. you are not trying to solve this game whatsoever or engage me in good faith
why am i town? because my rolecard says so! badum-tss
okay fine. my wolf game is mostly like... effort. a wim machine. i'm not going to say "i'm a villager because it's obvious i don't really care that much this game" but it's probably true. im not going to say "im a villager because dobby had more posts than me" but it's probably also true. at multiple points during this game i asked to be killed because i didn't want to be here. obviously that's wifom, but i don't think i try to argue with the confirmed town sorcerer about how i'm an optimal bomb target as mafia because... they might just take it seriously, lol. you have posted a ton. to claim you have not put in effort this game is a lie. this is to say nothing of the fact that an effortful scum player can take it easy. you are also skilled enough to realize that arguing you should be killed in the game is a way of getting townread
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/31177-DragonVale-Mafia-Roar-of-the-Rift?p=5027757&highlight=poe#post5027757
you have used this exact tactic as mafia before so claiming it as a reason it makes you town is a BLATANT LIE.
as hollowkatt said i'm very much so a people pleaser as mafia. although i've honestly grown to be more of one as town too, because i believe strongly in town cohesion and stopping arguments i believe are v/v. (im not saying i cant get into stupid arguments such as this one, because i'm also prone to those. i'd likely be trying harder to)okay, and this makes you not mafia this game because...? this is just describing yourself, not anything you did this game you would not do as mafia. if you argument is "i didn't get into enough arguments so i am town"....that is extremely unconvincing.
i'm also pretty cheeky as wolf and like making those "hehe" jokes i can point back to in postgame and say "lol, lmao" and love subtly openwolfing but that's. probably not something that reading my iso during a game can really get you to very often. especially with how often i make stupid jokes as town too. irrelevant, unimportant, discarded.
oh and i also also make a lot of wifomy kills. i think w!me would very likely kill hollowkatt and say it's a framing job or something. in DV i shot a PoEish player N2 just because they were tunneling me. i also killed illario going into LyLo which was the most blatant kill that led to me by a significant marginshooting a player who is tunneling you is +EV. shooting someone unexpected going into F3 is not. by your own logic, killing the player who was tunneling you was the most beneficial kill, not a WIFOM kill. by that same token, killing dobby was the most beneficial kill for you as mafia, given that i had expressed suspicion of hollowkatt and hollowkatt has been hard townreading you
killing hollowkatt would make no sense because i literally never ever make that kill and there was no chance i was voting dobby. terrible argument. worthless argument.
what i don't do as mafia is shoot myself in the foot constantly. i don't defend wolves who are dead in the water. i don't constantly say how much i dislike the prospect of the current wagon formations if they're literally all villagers... if town is doing my work for me then i'll fucking let them. especially if i can tell from early on in the game that i'm going to be playing for the long haul, and looking at the dead wolves, i think that was evident by N1 at the latest.when did you defend wolves who were dead in the water? i remember no instances off the top of my head.
as for criticizing the current wagon formations...i think you're a bit like me in that as mafia you want to stay on "the right side of history" and avoid being on MLs if town is eating itself and you're in no danger. the thing about this is...YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THE WAGONS SUCK BUT STILL VOTED NEWCOMB (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829422&viewfull=1#post2053829422). IT WAS TOTALLY PERFORMATIVE.
and circling back to "defending woklves who were dead in the water"...you are claiming that my defense of ender on day 2 is a bad look for me but using the same argument in your defense. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, THIS SHOULD BE A POINT IN FAVOR OF ME BEING TOWN. But it is never something you consider at all, because you are not trying to view the game through an unbiased cognitive lens, you are simply looking for excuses to push on me. your logic is incoherent and inconsistent because you are not actually trying to solve the game.
how i would likely play this F3 is take the path that's easier for me. after F5, that path is very likely pushing hollowkatt over you because cape died screaming you're always town and that he's probably the wolf. several villagers have died with you as a very strong townread. i could flat out just quote newcomb and say "lol bye HK" and get away with it. you were appealing to me in a way that i could have very easily pocketed you. i'm not quite sure if i kill dobby over you either but that's a hard perspective to actually think about.already addressed: i have seen many times before that mafia have avoided taking the "obvious" route in f3. this is an unconvincing argument.
but i'm not really appeasing to anyone. i'm not taking the "easy" path. i'm not doing any of that. i'm responding to you because i'm tired of dealing with you right now. i don't really want to be an ass so i'll leave it at that.the thing is: you're not doing ANYTHING. because the win condition for mafia is SIMPLY TO NOT GET VOTED. AND YOU ARE PLAYING LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO NOT GET VOTED. if you were town you woulf be concerned with ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE THE GAME but YOU ARE NOT
the difference is that me and HK have been townreading eachother and you have to push one of us
i don't really think w!you can afford to kill hollowkatt over dobby and i absolutely do not think w!you could afford to kill me over anyone so your argument is again somehow that you would make an unexpected kill that benefits you while I...would make a kill that puts me in a situation with 2 people who have been townreading each other??
YOU ARE NOT APPLYING THE SAME STANDARDS OF REASONING TO ME AS YOU ARE TO YOURSELF. THIS DOES NOT COME FROM A TOWN MINDSET.
you've swapped over to pushing me while i've given the impression that i think it's you more confidently than i did earlieri swapped over to pushing you because hollowkatt's posts started to giv me pause and make me think he really believed the stuff he was saying. he didnt react to me like how i think a mafia would react. that was very evident from how i responded to him at the time. it didnt have to do with you. i have gotten more aggressive with you because your reasoning continues to be extremely faulty and i believe it is my job to press on that to expose the inconsistincies in your logic
and that's handled. katze cannot string together a single coherent reason as to why she is actually town this game.
hollowkatt talk to me when you get back
i really can't be bothered to "demonstrate a world" to you right now, ask me later. i saw approximately zero clearing interactions between you and ender. plausibly some between you and ladd.
you and monstr can absolutely be w/w???? the dude clearly had a moment and you had absolutely nothing to do with it? he snapped at raskol. if you're going to say "ooo monstr said he hated me that's not w/w" then he said he hated everyone so clearly he's not wolves with anyone and his flip was tailored! wowee! seriously though. i don't believe for a second you believe that and it's not cool to bring up.
and i... already explained what it means. zzz
revisiting this: this is a mentality slip. katze'd shrieking frustrated outrage at me bringing up monstr does not come from a town mindset.
this same exact thing has happened to me before in a game: a member of the mafia flipped out and started abusing me when i was doing absolutely nothing. and then in late game after that player's slot had finally flipped, i brought it up as a reason that i was town, the remaining mafia member was OUTRAGED that i brought it up even though it was self-evidently clearing. but i didn't DO anything. monstr is the one who was abusive toward ME.
this is because katze is salty that monstr's meltdown self-evidenly spewed me town. the whine of no fairrr is leaking through here.
if katze were actually concerned about solving the game at all, if she were a townie with even a single shred of conscience, she would ask herself "wait, would partners really interact that way?". but instead she reacted this way. because she is scum who needs to be able to push me and is upset that i'm using it as a defense.
Actually see you after EoD now
I'm so sick of this
Having emotions is not ate
I'm about to get mad for real
[Spoiled for unpleasant content. Original, unaltered contents of post are below - GH]
How about all of you go die in a fire
Mafia is the dumbest fucking game in existence
I don't care
I hate them as a person
[Spoiled for unpleasant content. Original, unaltered contents of post are below - GH]
I hate all of you on a deep and personal level that goes outside the game and I wish bad things on every one of you goodnight
I am bringing this back. You might find it unpleasant. I don't care. It is absolutely necessary to consider this if you actually want to play this game to win.
I want both of you to look at this with a straight face and tell me monstr reacts this way to a partner. he was getting upset and AtE'ing at rask, and I came in, told him to calm down, and he responded by SAYING HE HATES ME AS A PERSON. that is LITERALLY NEVER PARTNERED.
If you are town and conclude this is plausibly w/w, you are an absolute joke.
I honestly almost don't care and want to vote you anyway because I'm sick of things like that
I don't care about this game
Thats not ate
If you think this is AtE then perhaps get a class on emotions and their uses
you should have a glass of water and calm down
sorry, multiquote ate the first two quotes. here's what kicked this off. first quote was in response to rask and then i stepped in
i have been obvious town all game
i have not been accurate, i have made a lot of mistakes, but i have been trying to solve constantly
the way flipped scum has interacted with me is not how scum interacts with their partners
every single town who died was reading me as town
if this game ends in me getting MLed it is an absolute disgrace
https://i.imgur.com/URuFTNz.png
https://i.imgur.com/9qpPEJD.png
if you dont believe me, believe ladd in his own words
(for full context, the graph shown is for turbos, but he obviously speaks in more general terms about his strategy after that)
(i, on the other hand, definitively do bus and have a significant body of work to demonstrate this. i would have no compunctions about doing so here and would have confidence in my ability to endgame if i did so. instead my reads have mostly been bad. this is a function of me being town)
i feel like even now, at this very instant, i am blindingly obvious town by the way i am playing and i don't understand how the town aming you does not see that
zzz
okay if this is the way you're gonna play it i guess i'll just prove everything i said right
give me a moment
you have had 24 hours and have gotten basically nowhere and your lingering suspicion of me is off tangentially the idea that i could plausibly be associated with flipped mafia except you can only give the most weaselly half-assed justifications that you immediately retreat from when i call you on them being bad
this is incredibly lazy and i refuse to believe you'd play this way as town. you are not trying to solve this game whatsoever or engage me in good faith
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32938-Poisoner-21-er?p=5434788&viewfull=1#post5434788
v!katze depressed at the state of the game feeling demotivated and burnt out?
never heard this one before
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/30299-Congress-of-Vienna
i mean hell in this game i wasn't even depressed at the gamestate i was just burnt out and lazy for irl reasons
but i guess if you're going to ask me to link you games you'll only refer to the ones that support your argument, right?
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 19:43
Players Votes
ladd 4 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius, Montmorency, Raskolnikov)
Newcomb 3 (Enderwiggin, katze, Sleep)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, nebjiamn, Dobby)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
hollowkatt 1 (Csargo)
This is the final tally I have.
Pm me or dm me on discord if there are any corrections.
which one of you was trying to save Ladd and which one was trying to kill newcomb
you have posted a ton. to claim you have not put in effort this game is a lie. this is to say nothing of the fact that an effortful scum player can take it easy. you are also skilled enough to realize that arguing you should be killed in the game is a way of getting townread
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/31177-DragonVale-Mafia-Roar-of-the-Rift?p=5027757&highlight=poe#post5027757
you have used this exact tactic as mafia before so claiming it as a reason it makes you town is a BLATANT LIE.
ok that fixed it
imma be honest sunbae it sounds like im the optimal bomb target because every read ive seen on me has been soured by paranoia of "katze is a good wolf and nothing is 100% clearing" which will v likely not change unless exactly newcomb flips mafia
Idk katze, I think I can see plenty of worlds where you get called a villager by most of the thread!
:p i read the future
there's a massive difference between me performatively saying "lol just yeet me and sheep my reads" and me literally telling sunbae i believe im the optimal vest target?
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 19:48
Players Votes
Cuthillius 4 (katze, nebjiamn, Sleep, Raskolnikov)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, Cuthillius, Montmorency)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
hollowkatt 2 (Dobby, Csargo)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
ladd 1 (Winston Hughes)
Newcomb 1 (Enderwiggin)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
1062
and both of you were on cuth before that.
okay, and this makes you not mafia this game because...? this is just describing yourself, not anything you did this game you would not do as mafia. if you argument is "i didn't get into enough arguments so i am town"....that is extremely unconvincing.
irrelevant, unimportant, discarded.
shooting a player who is tunneling you is +EV. shooting someone unexpected going into F3 is not. by your own logic, killing the player who was tunneling you was the most beneficial kill, not a WIFOM kill. by that same token, killing dobby was the most beneficial kill for you as mafia, given that i had expressed suspicion of hollowkatt and hollowkatt has been hard townreading you
killing hollowkatt would make no sense because i literally never ever make that kill and there was no chance i was voting dobby. terrible argument. worthless argument.
this isn't worth arguing about because it won't change your mind if i'm wrong on you, my point was that i'd probably have killed HK instead of like, raskol or some shit
i'm completely content leaving harder clears alive if they're not doing anything to disrupt me, killing holyflare in finale for example (not really a great one because he was also consensus town but i was also trying to undermine his townread status and plausibly could have)
we almost kept hornet alive for F5 in the finale as well despite them being considered an IC
other examples include... mashes. which i'm not going to pretend mean much. and dead homesite games. wee
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 19:53
Tally as of #570 (editing in)
3 Cape90 (Sleep, Katze, Winston)
3 Monty (Zack, Csargo, Sunbae)
2 Monstrdude (Monty, Hollowkatt)
1 Csargo (Cape90)
1 Winston Hughes (Cuthillius)
1 Hollowkatt (Monstrdude)
1 Newcomb (Nebjiamn)
1 Katze (Newcomb)
1 ladd (Enderwiggin)
1 Sleep (Ladd)
Remember, if you do not vote using the Vote: Format with the colon, i aint gonna count it. its in the rules.
both of you have circled each other for quite a few vote counts on D1
when did you defend wolves who were dead in the water? i remember no instances off the top of my head.
as for criticizing the current wagon formations...i think you're a bit like me in that as mafia you want to stay on "the right side of history" and avoid being on MLs if town is eating itself and you're in no danger. the thing about this is...YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THE WAGONS SUCK BUT STILL VOTED NEWCOMB (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829422&viewfull=1#post2053829422). IT WAS TOTALLY PERFORMATIVE.
and circling back to "defending woklves who were dead in the water"...you are claiming that my defense of ender on day 2 is a bad look for me but using the same argument in your defense. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, THIS SHOULD BE A POINT IN FAVOR OF ME BEING TOWN. But it is never something you consider at all, because you are not trying to view the game through an unbiased cognitive lens, you are simply looking for excuses to push on me. your logic is incoherent and inconsistent because you are not actually trying to solve the game.
monstr/dolby
zack gave me shit for calling dolby a villager while everybody else in the world was like "hehe dolby obvious wolf"
also thought monstr was town before the Incident and defended that on D1 as well
and ender wasn't dead in the water on D2? you soft defended him a dozen times while people were going both directions there
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 19:55
one of the two of you was sheeping the other D1 b/c with the exception of the final vote count neither of you voted a wolf.
I have no idea if that's AI for Sleep, I feel like it's semi-ai for katze, gotta do some checking tho
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 19:56
also katze you need a fucking turbo alt holy fuck
when did you defend wolves who were dead in the water? i remember no instances off the top of my head.
as for criticizing the current wagon formations...i think you're a bit like me in that as mafia you want to stay on "the right side of history" and avoid being on MLs if town is eating itself and you're in no danger. the thing about this is...YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THE WAGONS SUCK BUT STILL VOTED NEWCOMB (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/154663-Sorceror-17er-Game-Thread?p=2053829422&viewfull=1#post2053829422). IT WAS TOTALLY PERFORMATIVE.
and circling back to "defending woklves who were dead in the water"...you are claiming that my defense of ender on day 2 is a bad look for me but using the same argument in your defense. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, THIS SHOULD BE A POINT IN FAVOR OF ME BEING TOWN. But it is never something you consider at all, because you are not trying to view the game through an unbiased cognitive lens, you are simply looking for excuses to push on me. your logic is incoherent and inconsistent because you are not actually trying to solve the game.
oh and addressing the first paragraph i literally tried to tell people the wagons were bad and explained which ones i thought were especially bad
take monty off the list imo
i thought the tinfoil he had about visor posting a votecount right after you voted ladd was villagery and it's a peak "look, here's whats going to happen" vote
not very
although looking back i might laugh at it
holy shit its almost EoD im so used to MU votecounts reminding me at all times how close it is alfoamgjnmgh
vote: unvote
sorry
be back in a min
these wagons fucking suck
dont kill sleep
maybe kill newcomb??? idk fuck
probably dont kill csargo
dont kill hollowkatt what the fuck why is he a wagon
dont kill rask
i did do things about it. yeah i didn't go size 7 bluekang-talking-about-alexa mode and hard shielded a player. that's not how i roll. i call shit as i see it.
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:00
town katze has absolutely shit reads... in terms of vote history on MU. Looked at the vote history of their last 8-10 MU games and their town vote history is full of green on green, some green on red. katze wolf games are much more accurate, but some of that is voting for cred and/or voting to provide cred (see katze on alexa in champs finals for example of the latter).
This game katze has shit reads and their vote history is full of green on green
already addressed: i have seen many times before that mafia have avoided taking the "obvious" route in f3. this is an unconvincing argument.
the thing is: you're not doing ANYTHING. because the win condition for mafia is SIMPLY TO NOT GET VOTED. AND YOU ARE PLAYING LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO NOT GET VOTED. if you were town you woulf be concerned with ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE THE GAME but YOU ARE NOT
i'm lazy and i've already talked about that so instead of further arguing that, how about i twist you a tale:
katze is mafia who worked their ass off to bring this game to F3. katze then does "nothing" in this F3 when they are so close to victory?
if you're gonna go the "fatigue" then i urge you to read literally any w!katze lylo, lmfao. i'm fully capable of playing a phase out if it's what i need to do, because i know what i need to do and am so close to my goal.
here? i mean. at this point i'm pretty sure it's you, and if it's not then whatever because i don't think you're ever not voting me with how tunneled you are rn. but i've already explained why a w!katze would have some pretty obvious paths to victory and i am taking none of them. even if you want to say "oooo you're not taking hte obvious path because it's obvious" there's still paths? do you think that i'm a wolf who has no idea what to do?
im gonna remind you about my ego and rep
yes im going there.
so your argument is again somehow that you would make an unexpected kill that benefits you while I...would make a kill that puts me in a situation with 2 people who have been townreading each other??
YOU ARE NOT APPLYING THE SAME STANDARDS OF REASONING TO ME AS YOU ARE TO YOURSELF. THIS DOES NOT COME FROM A TOWN MINDSET.
i swapped over to pushing you because hollowkatt's posts started to giv me pause and make me think he really believed the stuff he was saying. he didnt react to me like how i think a mafia would react. that was very evident from how i responded to him at the time. it didnt have to do with you. i have gotten more aggressive with you because your reasoning continues to be extremely faulty and i believe it is my job to press on that to expose the inconsistincies in your logic
what
i fully believe that w!you was forced to kill dobby last night. i always vote you over dobby. HK might vote dobby over you but i'm evidently alive so you can push me in F3 so alas
im applying my standards to myself because you're literally asking me to talk about why im a villager, half of these things i'm "not applying to you" i've written out and the other half i have probably considered and not typed out
revisiting this: this is a mentality slip. katze'd shrieking frustrated outrage at me bringing up monstr does not come from a town mindset.
this same exact thing has happened to me before in a game: a member of the mafia flipped out and started abusing me when i was doing absolutely nothing. and then in late game after that player's slot had finally flipped, i brought it up as a reason that i was town, the remaining mafia member was OUTRAGED that i brought it up even though it was self-evidently clearing. but i didn't DO anything. monstr is the one who was abusive toward ME.
this is because katze is salty that monstr's meltdown self-evidenly spewed me town. the whine of no fairrr is leaking through here.
if katze were actually concerned about solving the game at all, if she were a townie with even a single shred of conscience, she would ask herself "wait, would partners really interact that way?". but instead she reacted this way. because she is scum who needs to be able to push me and is upset that i'm using it as a defense.
I am bringing this back. You might find it unpleasant. I don't care. It is absolutely necessary to consider this if you actually want to play this game to win.
I want both of you to look at this with a straight face and tell me monstr reacts this way to a partner. he was getting upset and AtE'ing at rask, and I came in, told him to calm down, and he responded by SAYING HE HATES ME AS A PERSON. that is LITERALLY NEVER PARTNERED.
If you are town and conclude this is plausibly w/w, you are an absolute joke.
im "outraged" because it's very obvious that monstr had a mental breakdown in thread and you're using this as a means to push agenda
but sure, let's play this game: this is plausibly w/w and if you're a villager you're free to flame the shit out of me in post for thinking it. i full believe in that moment he didn't care about who was on the other side of the text he was saying, and your alignment was irrelevant to him being angry at you because "dude relax" does not compute with the brain having a moment
if this is something that is so cut and dry, then have none of the dead villagers commented on it being a good look for you? we've all agreed that it looked good for raskol, so why not you?
also katze you need a fucking turbo alt holy fuck
i do have a turbo alt, makaze just automatically merged accounts that were public alts of eachother and now katze and gamer are one
blame mak
town katze has absolutely shit reads... in terms of vote history on MU. Looked at the vote history of their last 8-10 MU games and their town vote history is full of green on green, some green on red. katze wolf games are much more accurate, but some of that is voting for cred and/or voting to provide cred (see katze on alexa in champs finals for example of the latter).
This game katze has shit reads and their vote history is full of green on green
im being bullied for being bad and i cant argue against it :(
which one of you was trying to save Ladd and which one was trying to kill newcomb
vote: ladd
vote: newcomb
we were both trying to kill newcomb but i had about nothing to say about ladd at that eod
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:11
i do have a turbo alt, makaze just automatically merged accounts that were public alts of eachother and now katze and gamer are one
blame mak
im being bullied for being bad and i cant argue against it :(
it's not my fault you're submissive and bullyable
also fork makaze :sadangry:
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:12
we were both trying to kill newcomb but i had about nothing to say about ladd at that eod
yes but one of you was legit voting newcomb and the other was voting a townie when their pack mate was a wagon.
vote: Newcomb
fingers crossed but i do not like any other wagon at all really
vote: ladd
vote: newcomb
Vote: Ladd
https://i.imgur.com/EeYtIBY.jpg
vote: ladd
there was some post gira made earlier along the lines of him suspecting me for taking his newcomb suspicions and pushing them, but i was pushing newcomb for way longer than he ever was and in this current enviroment i think it's v likely he was just trying to have his cake (getting newcomb killed) and eat it too (getting away with it and killing me)
:sparkleshrug:
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:18
I know I never really got to the weirdish questions I asked in terms of a post, but I feel like Katze was more accurate in their self-assessment than Sleep was. I find Sleep to be more of a follower during D1/D2 than going their own way / being an hero.
I say this because while they were off doing their own thing they were not vociferous in their pushes in a way that I would describe as heroic.
I won't be here for actual EOD, probably won't even be here for the last 2 hours very much.
Unless something drastically changes though I've made my decision, it's vote: Sleep.
monstr/dolby
zack gave me shit for calling dolby a villager while everybody else in the world was like "hehe dolby obvious wolf"
also thought monstr was town before the Incident and defended that on D1 as well
and ender wasn't dead in the water on D2? you soft defended him a dozen times while people were going both directions there
okay so
why is that scum-indicative for me but not for you katze
why are you putting this double standard here
hollokatt legit isn't reading a goddamn word i said, is he?
every single game i play it's the exact same thing
i always get the cold shoulder
no one ever actually cares for anything i have to say
thats how ive been treated nearly this entire game
i never even so much as get the regard of "sleep i see what you're saying but i think you're wrong because xyz". it's just "no sleep you're dumb and wrong shut up".
different games, different people, different sites. always the same thing happens, every time
am i that bad at communicating? why does this shit always happen to me?
okay so
why is that scum-indicative for me but not for you katze
why are you putting this double standard here
are you reading a word im saying
like why even play if this is the way people are going to treat me? if my posts get glossed over every time and i get given the brush-off?
are you reading a word im saying
i read the one post i responded to im a bit frustrated right now so i havent read it all in order
i think it's bad for you because you soft defended ender from active suspicion 100 different times when he was in a weird middle ground of "having hard defenders but also a lot of people kinda suspecting them"
i think it's good for me because i know how i play better than i know how you play and i know it's something that w!me would look at and be like "lol just get the cred and run' because by then i'd know i need to play for F3
instead i legitimately thought that dolby had made reads that a wolf were unlikely to make, that monstr had a few small things in his favor, etc etc
instead of defending ender i defend dolby?
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/32938-Poisoner-21-er?p=5434788&viewfull=1#post5434788
v!katze depressed at the state of the game feeling demotivated and burnt out?
never heard this one before
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/30299-Congress-of-Vienna
i mean hell in this game i wasn't even depressed at the gamestate i was just burnt out and lazy for irl reasons
but i guess if you're going to ask me to link you games you'll only refer to the ones that support your argument, right?
okay again the idea that you are town simply for being umotivated is on its face unconvincing. i hope you can understand why.
there's a massive difference between me performatively saying "lol just yeet me and sheep my reads" and me literally telling sunbae i believe im the optimal vest target?
i think you can easily make that statement performatively, it doesnt prove a whole lot
this isn't worth arguing about because it won't change your mind if i'm wrong on you, my point was that i'd probably have killed HK instead of like, raskol or some shit
i'm completely content leaving harder clears alive if they're not doing anything to disrupt me, killing holyflare in finale for example (not really a great one because he was also consensus town but i was also trying to undermine his townread status and plausibly could have)
we almost kept hornet alive for F5 in the finale as well despite them being considered an IC
other examples include... mashes. which i'm not going to pretend mean much. and dead homesite games. wee
i again dont really buy this
god this would be so much easier if i had MU isoing
or even FoL isoing as much as people shit on it
100 post isos woat
i think it's bad for you because you soft defended ender from active suspicion 100 different times when he was in a weird middle ground of "having hard defenders but also a lot of people kinda suspecting them"
i think it's good for me because i know how i play better than i know how you play and i know it's something that w!me would look at and be like "lol just get the cred and run' because by then i'd know i need to play for F3
instead i legitimately thought that dolby had made reads that a wolf were unlikely to make, that monstr had a few small things in his favor, etc etc
instead of defending ender i defend dolby?
katze why cant i just have been WRONG? why is that SUCH A HARD CONCEPT? what do i GAIN from defending ender in that spot?
hk went back to playing this more like mafia who has the game in the palm of his hand than town
katze why cant i just have been WRONG? why is that SUCH A HARD CONCEPT? what do i GAIN from defending ender in that spot?
you COULD HAVE BEEN and if you're a villager then you WERE but i think you're MAFIA and i will capitalize RANDOM WORDS to emphasize it
i think HK is townier than you
your approach to me right now is...
honestly you feel like marl which might actually be a townpoint but you're grasping at literally everything to call me a liar and like
man what the fuck am i supposed to do if you're town
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:32
hollokatt legit isn't reading a goddamn word i said, is he?
tbh as soon as things got testy I tuned both of you out and just started reading old posts and looking at vote counts and having a think.
you COULD HAVE BEEN and if you're a villager then you WERE but i think you're MAFIA and i will capitalize RANDOM WORDS to emphasize it
i think HK is townier than you
your approach to me right now is...
honestly you feel like marl which might actually be a townpoint but you're grasping at literally everything to call me a liar and like
man what the fuck am i supposed to do if you're town
if you're town you need to recognize that i'm being real here in what i'm saying
and that i'm frustrated because i'm getting MLed when i was townread by everyone and yet you seemingly don't have a single care for the words i say
and even if i'm tilting at windmills and totally wrong in trying to tear you down i am still town
tbh as soon as things got testy I tuned both of you out and just started reading old posts and looking at vote counts and having a think.
cool, very cool
i love to play the game of mafia, where people make decisions without reading your posts
it's so fun
if you're town you need to recognize that i'm being real here in what i'm saying
and that i'm frustrated because i'm getting MLed when i was townread by everyone and yet you seemingly don't have a single care for the words i say
and even if i'm tilting at windmills and totally wrong in trying to tear you down i am still town
i meaaaan
it's kinda hard to view these attacks on me as genuine but
give me a bit im making bad decisions such as "playing a turbo" and "eating" and ill get back to you
The absolute basic minimum of respect in a mafia game ought to be "Yes, I have read your posts and considered what you have to say"
And consistently I am not given that treatment in games.
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:52
cool, very cool
i love to play the game of mafia, where people make decisions without reading your posts
it's so fun
I've read your posts, I just declined to wade into the muck.
i meaaaan
it's kinda hard to view these attacks on me as genuine but
give me a bit im making bad decisions such as "playing a turbo" and "eating" and ill get back to you
why is it not genuine? because (fypov) i am wrong?
i lashed out because it felt like you didnt have a single care for what i said and werent actually trying to evaluate me
I've read your posts, I just declined to wade into the muck.
could i receive the BARE MINIMUM of acknowledgement?
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 20:56
The absolute basic minimum of respect in a mafia game ought to be "Yes, I have read your posts and considered what you have to say"
And consistently I am not given that treatment in games.
decidedly untrue but ok I guess?
I read the posts. I thought the AtE/Emotional posting was wolfy as fuck. It felt to me like as soon as I was no longer on the table and you committed to that that you turned on Katze and instead of pushing them like you pushed me you got upset with how they were treating you and that fueled the posting.
Then as soon as I start looking at vote counts again you make the statement that I'm playing like I've got F3 in the palm of my hands which I very much do not.
I believe you're an imminently competent and skilled player who has played a very good game, I just don't believe it's a town game. That's all there is to it.
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 21:06
responding out of order because it was the first thing i saw
yes that is exactly what happened and its really not hard to tell
i came into today mostly convinced it was you but the way you responded to me was confusing because it didnt seem like scum and tthe posts you made all explaining your mindset all made sense to me
and there's this thing that happens in mafia games sometimes, don't know if you've ever experienced it, but sometimes you get deep in an argument with someone and you're flinging crap at them and going all out and then you just get this feeling that you're wrong and the other person might be town after all and that they believe all the things they are saying and that's what happened with you
uhh speak for yourself on that account because i have been feeling incredibly pressured
well go ahead whenever you're ready
I'm ready.
I don't think town Sleep does that. Here's why: Even though votes aren't locked and even though the day is the full 48 hours coming into the thread like that, dropping a very large case that looks damning on the surface you are relying entirely on me actually being the last wolf.
You said yourself you were shook when I responded the way I did and that's why you shifted your read on me. I don't think town comes into the last day of the game with the intention of burying someone before being rock solid sure on that persons alignment.
If I'd responded poorly and katze buys into the HK wolf narrative town loses this game. The entire onus of town winning this game relies on how well I respond to your push and I feel like town doesn't take that risk.
A wolf though does.
I'm ready.
I don't think town Sleep does that. Here's why: Even though votes aren't locked and even though the day is the full 48 hours coming into the thread like that, dropping a very large case that looks damning on the surface you are relying entirely on me actually being the last wolf.
You said yourself you were shook when I responded the way I did and that's why you shifted your read on me. I don't think town comes into the last day of the game with the intention of burying someone before being rock solid sure on that persons alignment.
If I'd responded poorly and katze buys into the HK wolf narrative town loses this game. The entire onus of town winning this game relies on how well I respond to your push and I feel like town doesn't take that risk.
A wolf though does.
this is weird because the first sentence assumes the perspective i am mafia but the second assumes i am town
and regardless
it is not a ridiculous position to come into f3 with a read and pursue it
there are plenty of examples where town has voted early in a f3. i don't see why this is outlandish
why is it not genuine? because (fypov) i am wrong?
i lashed out because it felt like you didnt have a single care for what i said and werent actually trying to evaluate me
its not "you're wrong" its
"YOU ARE A WOLF YOU ARE A LIAR THERE IS NO WORLD YOU ARE A VILLAGER" just. feels like an agenda.
meh
that turbo ended prematurely so hi :wowee:
hollowkatt
05-07-2022, 21:47
this is weird because the first sentence assumes the perspective i am mafia but the second assumes i am town
and regardless
it is not a ridiculous position to come into f3 with a read and pursue it
there are plenty of examples where town has voted early in a f3. i don't see why this is outlandish
Because the onus is on town to be right. The wolf merely needs to appear to be right. And it wasn't until I started actually pushing back and defending myself that you bothered to consider whether or not I could be town. If votes were locked and you are town you lost us the game the instant you voted for me.
Luckily they're not locked and luckily I'm competent in defending myself.
When you came into the thread today to push me the only way town wins this game, again if you are town, is if my defense is strong enough to counter your push AND ALSO can spew you town in a way that Katze can't push you. But these aren't things your posting shows crossed your mind.
Like ok if you're town all Katze has to do is say "I don't believe the HK responses" and votes me and the game ends in a wolf win. If you're town and Katze is the wolf and you make that push and I push back as I did all Katze needs to do here is reinforce your case / statements, keep you on track, and go on to win the game.
decidedly untrue but ok I guess?
I read the posts. I thought the AtE/Emotional posting was wolfy as fuck. It felt to me like as soon as I was no longer on the table and you committed to that that you turned on Katze and instead of pushing them like you pushed me you got upset with how they were treating you and that fueled the posting.
Then as soon as I start looking at vote counts again you make the statement that I'm playing like I've got F3 in the palm of my hands which I very much do not.
I believe you're an imminently competent and skilled player who has played a very good game, I just don't believe it's a town game. That's all there is to it.
because, dead honest: i didn't think there was a case against katze. the only reason i turned against her WAS because i felt the way she was handling me was disingenuous
and yeah, i thought you removing yourself from the argument and not even deigning to talk to me when i was asking for your attention might mean that i was wrong
Because the onus is on town to be right. The wolf merely needs to appear to be right. And it wasn't until I started actually pushing back and defending myself that you bothered to consider whether or not I could be town. If votes were locked and you are town you lost us the game the instant you voted for me.
Luckily they're not locked and luckily I'm competent in defending myself.
When you came into the thread today to push me the only way town wins this game, again if you are town, is if my defense is strong enough to counter your push AND ALSO can spew you town in a way that Katze can't push you. But these aren't things your posting shows crossed your mind.
Like ok if you're town all Katze has to do is say "I don't believe the HK responses" and votes me and the game ends in a wolf win. If you're town and Katze is the wolf and you make that push and I push back as I did all Katze needs to do here is reinforce your case / statements, keep you on track, and go on to win the game.
why does that make me mafia and not town who played suboptimally
its not "you're wrong" its
"YOU ARE A WOLF YOU ARE A LIAR THERE IS NO WORLD YOU ARE A VILLAGER" just. feels like an agenda.
meh
that turbo ended prematurely so hi :wowee:
because it felt like you were not giving consideration to my arguments and your self-defense was dishonest
katze just vote me like we all know you're going to
gotta do something for my dad be back in a bit but
sleep it just feels like today you're
pushing who you think is pushable
im not really convinced your swaps are like, you rabbiting around as opposed to you wolfing
katze just vote me like we all know you're going to
am i not voting you already i thought i was
ill keep it off just for suspense in that case
joycat
every game its the same thing
nothing i say is ever given any regard
people treat me like absolute shit
i wasnt gonna go this far but atp i dont really care
its dehumanizing to get treated this way all the time
im not going to stick around to find out who is mafia and who is just a jerk
at this point i dont really want to know
for anyone who played in this game, don't talk to me after it's over, don't give me your condolences, especially do not compliment me. you might mean well but i assure you it is incredibly patronizing to hear. do not DM me, do not try to make contact, i don't want to hear it. if you try to reach out i will block you.
i realize that i am essentially the sole single biggest factor in making this game a town loss, and that had my slot been occupied by a villager of even average skill this might have been a win instead. that sucks a lot. i was trying to have fun and tell myself it didn't matter but losing in this fashion has just broken me. it sucks to suck as bad as i do. to constantly lose and have it always be your fault.
the problem is although i tried to have fun and not get too worked up over it i have barely been afforded a single iota of respect this entire game. that i never really got spoken to fairly. i wanted to help but no one would work with me or try to help me out. maybe after the game look back and if you were town see my words were genuine and think for a minute.
i dont think its too much to ask to at least be seen.
unvote
Visor please just call the game
also sorry it turned out like this everyone
vote:hk
i dont really think it matters anymore, if you wrote that as mafia then whatever congrats im deleting this game from my brain
i defintiely tried engagng with you but im not going to argue with it
alright fellas.
the game is gonna be called here, I know its only an hour half till eod but I don't really see the point in playing ti out any further
if you care about tracking stats, katze was the wolf and this is a wolf win.
Thanks all for playing.
I've got some more things to say, but I figure I better wrap things up here.
feel free to postgame etc at your leisure.
https://discord.gg/xyREPY4HrT
link to dvc
gg, fun one to spec
sorry it ended like this
nebjiamn
05-07-2022, 23:32
gg i was hally
Raskolnikov
05-07-2022, 23:32
GG it was katze.
Well play all. Really enjoyable game to play and follow from dvc. Tiny bits of it being tedious but thats life. Love u all.
Thanks Visor for hosting. :bow:
Ps: as discussed in dvc, if there is interest to play Zacks poisonner 17er, i can host it here during summer.
gg thanks for hosting visor
wp woofs
would be in for poisoner
when i invited you fellas here, I was hoping to have a mostly chill game where people tried to win but didn't take it too hard if things didn't work out
obviously when you get a lot of decent players in a game, people stress out a bit - but I was hoping hosting a game off mu and with a playerbase that wasn't overly aggressive or in your face that people would have a better time.
not everything works out - obv the whole monstr thing was rough, i regret inviting him because clearly he was in a bad mental state at the time and playing ww just excarberated it, i should've just let him heal in his own time
and then today, obv things are going to get tense and nobody wants to be the reason/s their team loses (even when all that is is just the most recent reason, there were plenty of opportunities prior). at the end of the day it is just a game however. there will be another one that gets hosted here in the future.
winning or losing doesn;t matter in the grand scheme, all that matters is that you have fun and enjoy the game, and while i think that mostly happened outside a few instances.
please don't take this too harshly, id definitely invite all of you to play again (yes that includes you gira). i wouldn't have invited you guys if i didn't think you were fun players. one bad day shouldn't damper the whole experience and spirit the game was played in.
not sure where i'm going with this, just hope everyone is doing well, and that you're always welcome to play another game here.
ggs everyone, thanks for the game Visor :bow:
Cuthillius
05-08-2022, 00:14
-fzzt
hollowkatt
05-08-2022, 00:19
ggwp Katzenberg ����
hollowkatt
05-08-2022, 00:19
LOLOL autocorrect
Montmorency
05-08-2022, 00:29
The game progressed fine for the most part. Late game anxiety is a thing. The setup is not fancy, but it wasn't intended nor needed to be. It fulfilled its entertainment potential with the successful detonations and deep katz. Thanks to all.
Gg
Thx for hosting visor and thx for the carry katze
Winston Hughes
05-08-2022, 20:22
gg everyone
thanks visor
same time next year?
Winston Hughes
05-08-2022, 22:30
benneh
ender
katze
sunbae
monstr
cape
hk but this read is from early d1
newc
roro
sleep
zack
ladd
csargo
monty
winston
rask
and if you're saying to yourself "gee four orgers on the bottom of that list" guess what i've been saying to myself for the last like 24 hours too
alphabetical within tiers as always
Unvote
town losing its collective mind to bussing tinfoil after a d1 wolf chop isn't so unusual
lord knows, i've been there plenty
but chopping these two in the wake of that cfd was up with the worst
did anyone ever give a plausible explanation for what they were thinking at the time if they were scum?
or of why any ladd teammate would jump onto a last minute wagon made out of nothing?
the analysis of who said what to who made for countless talking points
but while town focused in on the details, it missed the bigger picture
the positioning of the players in the flow of the game
and this is why katze was so easily able to roll it up
she could position herself how she liked because town were too busy stressing on d1 associatives to notice
Winston Hughes
05-08-2022, 22:47
no criticism of any individual players intended - it's a collective mindset thing
town often gets to thinking about the game weirdly after a big catch d1
maybe this catch being so random and so unexpected messed up town's thinking more than usual
Winston Hughes
05-08-2022, 23:14
katze was a joyful wolf
dobby was beautiful
blade was hardcore
benneh was the fonze
newcomb was cassandra
sunbae was the light of thousand townie suns
ladd was robbed
cape was soooo close
sleep was sooooooooooooooooo close
hk was pure as driven snow
dolby was hilarious
cuth was cuth
csar was csar
monty was monty
ras was ras
:bow:
katze was a joyful wolf
dobby was beautiful
blade was hardcore
benneh was the fonze
newcomb was cassandra
sunbae was the light of thousand townie suns
ladd was robbed
cape was soooo close
sleep was sooooooooooooooooo close
hk was pure as driven snow
dolby was hilarious
cuth was cuth
csar was csar
monty was monty
ras was ras
:bow:
ouch
Raskolnikov
05-09-2022, 20:10
ouch
Zack was the sun
Winston was the earth
nebjiamn
05-09-2022, 20:16
ouch
:whip:
Winston Hughes
05-11-2022, 18:18
ouch
:creep:
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